Caricature of Advaita, Shankaracharya, etc. by the Gaudiya head
V Subrahmanian
Aravinda Rao
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Bhaskar YR
They are our younger brothers. We may smile at them. They have done a great job of aggressively creating awareness about Hinduism in more than 150 countries. They include the African nations. Those who read the Gita and the Bhagavatam in whatever form will slowly come to Vedanta.
praNAms
Hare Krishna
Interestingly, when I was attending the bhagavata classes here in Bengaluru ISKCON some decades back, the ‘Das’ who was teaching bhAgavataM used to express feelings like this about mAyAvAdins, he used to sincerely pity them by saying these mAyAvAdins are downtrodden without knowing the ‘mahima’ of supreme godhead and they think that they are ultimate. But one fine day, with the blessings of compassionate lord krishna, they realize their grave mistake and will come and take shelter under the supreme godhead and lord krishna would save them, until then we have to treat them as fallen souls and should try to uplift them 😊
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
Aravinda Rao
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Vishesh Bhat
Among the vaishnavas the madhwas hold a different view. That all the
advaitins will attain eternal hell for their wrong knowledge.
On Tue, 18 Oct, 2022, 3:10 pm Aravinda Rao via Advaita-l, <
adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> 😃😊😃 That is peaceful coexistence. In one meeting a vaishnava scholar
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> >
> > .
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Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
My blunt observations to your multiple questions :
My apologies for wading into this discussion and hijacking it. But as a student of Advaita, I have failed to explain to anyone who has asked me,
where does Maya come from?
- It is anivachaneeya (inexplicable), contextually sometime termed as Ishwara shakti and there is no difference between this shakti & shakta. mAya is Ishwarya of Lord.
I understand asking why Maya exists is wrong as Maya is unreal, so the question of existence is moot.
- As mentioned above we cannot categorically say it is either real or unreal.
But what is the need for this transactional/Vyavaharika reality in the first place?
- To realize the transcendental reality the transactional reality is the platform 😊 which we have to ‘use’ unfortunately.
I see the cycle of Jiva as a result of Karma but Karma is valid when in the Jiva cycle. What is the purpose of the Jiva cycle itself ?
- The purpose (purushArtha) is to realize we are beyond this cycle ( i.e. ajaH, nityaH etc.)
I thought at first Srishti "is" because without that there can be no experience of anything, but then the question arises if Srishti is the result of a desire in Brahman to "experience".
- Srushti is for jeeva, who has to experience his karma phala in the jagat, Ishwara does this for the sake of jeeva and accepting that srushti is from Ishwara is ‘vedAnta maryAda’. And all these prakriya-s (methodologies) are there to teach us the ultimate shruti siddhAnta i.e. ekamevAdviteeyatvaM of Atman which is our own svarUpa.
That is also a confusing thought as Brahman can have no desire. Please help me understand.
Ø See the sUtra bhAshya, bhAshyakAra explained all these doubts.
Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
This would give us the impression that even before the srushti of jeeva and jagat, avidyA has the locus in parabrahman itself. So parabrahman himself (itself) not free from avidyA and due to avidyA in him he does the creation or he thought that he wanted to be many!!?? So, before creation itself we are talking about parabrahman who has avidyA and at that time where was nirvishesha, nirguNa, niravayava brahman or nitya shuddha, buddha mukta parabrahman?? In the context of br.bhAshya it is not there to prove brahmAshrita avidyA, it is there to say there is no second Chaitanya apart from brahman. When the jeeva getting rid of his avidyA he would realize this truth that he is nitya, shuddha, buddha and mukta and there was / is / will never be a dirt like avidyA. Hence avdiyA is always abhAva rUpa.
V Subrahmanian
As per Advaita, maya is anirvachaniya. Not explicable at all in any
rational way. To explain this, a famous story is given. An arrow of unknown
origin strikes a person lost in the woods somewhere. Would that person take
the arrow out of his chest and try to revive himself or think about where
did the arrow come from and at what angle? or is the arrow made of wood
with an iron tip or tungsten carbide??".
Obviously, the answer is he has to fix the problem and survive first.
Similarly, we in samsara should find a way out of this first.
In fact a simple answer given in the upanishads is:
भिद्यते हृदयग्रन्थिश्छिद्यन्ते सर्वसंशयाः ।
क्षीयन्ते चास्य कर्माणि तस्मिन्दृष्टे परावरे ॥ ८ ॥
bhidyate hṛdayagranthiśchidyante sarvasaṃśayāḥ |
kṣīyante cāsya karmāṇi tasmindṛṣṭe parāvare || 8 ||
8.
<https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/mundaka-upanishad-shankara-bhashya/d/doc145117.html#page-59>When
he that is both high and low is seen, the knot of the heart is untied; all
doubts are solved; and all his *karma* is consumed.
This verse states, in other words, not all logical questions can be
answered. We should focus on how to see the ONE, by seeing whom, all
problems are solved.
namaste.
*Best Regards,*
*Krishna Kashyap*
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 4:27 PM Bhaskar YR via Advaita-l <
adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> praNAms
> Hare Krishna
>
> My blunt observations to your multiple questions :
>
> My apologies for wading into this discussion and hijacking it. But as a
> student of Advaita, I have failed to explain to anyone who has asked me,
>
> where does Maya come from?
>
>
> * It is anivachaneeya (inexplicable), contextually sometime termed as
> Ishwara shakti and there is no difference between this shakti & shakta.
> mAya is Ishwarya of Lord.
>
> I understand asking why Maya exists is wrong as Maya is unreal, so the
> question of existence is moot.
>
>
> * As mentioned above we cannot categorically say it is either real or
> unreal.
>
> But what is the need for this transactional/Vyavaharika reality in the
> first place?
>
>
> * To realize the transcendental reality the transactional reality is
> the platform 😊 which we have to ‘use’ unfortunately.
>
> I see the cycle of Jiva as a result of Karma but Karma is valid when in
> the Jiva cycle. What is the purpose of the Jiva cycle itself ?
>
>
> * The purpose (purushArtha) is to realize we are beyond this cycle (
> i.e. ajaH, nityaH etc.)
>
> I thought at first Srishti "is" because without that there can be no
> experience of anything, but then the question arises if Srishti is the
> result of a desire in Brahman to "experience".
>
>
> * Srushti is for jeeva, who has to experience his karma phala in the
> jagat, Ishwara does this for the sake of jeeva and accepting that srushti
> is from Ishwara is ‘vedAnta maryAda’. And all these prakriya-s
> (methodologies) are there to teach us the ultimate shruti siddhAnta i.e.
> ekamevAdviteeyatvaM of Atman which is our own svarUpa.
>
> That is also a confusing thought as Brahman can have no desire. Please
> help me understand.
>
>
> Ø See the sUtra bhAshya, bhAshyakAra explained all these doubts.
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> bhaskar
>
>
Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
This would give us the impression that even before the srushti of jeeva and jagat, avidyA has the locus in parabrahman itself.
That wouldn't be so sir. As there is no avidya without jagat. Without jagat there is no avidya. Whereas the counter might not be true.
Ø You quoted shruti and said that even before srushti brahman is endowed with avidyA and due to avidyA only brahman thought that he would become many. avidyA as you know has been explained as agrahaNa (jnAnAbhAva), anyathAgrahaNa ( misconception) and saMshaya (doubt) in geeta by bhAshyakAra. I would like to know when Upanishad talking about parameshwarAshrita avidyA, due to which type of avidyA parameshwara thought that he would become many or thought about creation?? If the avidyA which has the locus in parabrahman itself which is not the type mentioned above then please clarify the nature of this avidyA in parameshwara.
So parabrahman himself (itself) not free from avidyA and due to avidyA in him he does the creation or he thought that he wanted to be many!!??
Sarvjnata and sarvashakthatva is admitted to isvara and not nirguna brahman.
- These are not the qualities or attributes of parabrahman, it is the ‘svabhAva’ of parabrahman see the itareya introductory bhAshya.
Without jagat and avidya what is the cause of sarvjnata and sarvashakthatva? If there is no world there is nothing to know(sarvjnata) and nothing to have power over.
Ø It is as good as saying since there is no outside objects to ‘see’, the eyes do not have its seeing power 😊 The seeing or cognizing power is inherent and whenever situation demands these power will be exercised.
So, before creation itself we are talking about parabrahman who has avidyA and at that time where was nirvishesha, nirguNa, niravayava brahman or nitya shuddha, buddha mukta parabrahman??
Again there is no avidya without a world. Without any apparent duality there is no avidya. So it appears both are simultaneous.
Ø Jeevaashrita avidyA and parameshwara Ashrita mAya (the power) both are different, and in this context if we are (wrongly) holding the bhAshya vAkya : avidyAtmikA hi beeja shaktiH, avyakta shabda nirdeshyaa parameshwaraashrayaa mayAmayi etc. (su.bh. 1.4.3) to prove the parameshwarAshrita avidyA prior to srushti etc. then it is a subject matter of entirely different discussion.
Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
I had said it is simultaneous, not prior to creation.
- So prior to creation brahman does not have avidyA and as soon as he thinks about creation or wanted to be many avidyA takes place simultaneously alongwith creation in brahman. Is this what br.up. saying us??
If it's not brahman that is affected by avidya then the question arises who has avidya?
- So we are struggling to realize the brahman who has avidyA !! 😊
If the answer is given that it is jeeva, then who is this Jiva? He is not the body, not the mind, and eventually by neti neti it appears that he too remains only a witness and he is Atman only. Then who has avidya?
Ø bhagavatpAda answered this question in sUtra bhAshya. The person who is asking the questions about locus of avidyA is having this avidyA!! But is this person not brahman asks the pUrvapaxi?? bhAshyakAra clarifies, If you know/realize that then there is no avidyA to whosoever.
I remember in this context abhinava vidyatirtha swamin says that the Jiva is the mixture of the mind and Atman.
Ø And in taitereeya bhAshya bhAshyakAra says avidyA is antaHkaraNa dOsha, the subsequent question what is antaHkaraNa then?? is mute here as the avidyA has been explained to the jeeva who is suffering from avidyA.
These are not the qualities or attributes of parabrahman, it is the ‘svabhAva’ of parabrahman see the itareya introductory bhAshya.
What are? Sarvajnta isn't svabhava of nirguna brahman. It's only isvara narayana who has sarvajnta and sarvashakthatva.
Ø I have asked you to check itareya shruti introductory bhAshya. And you can also check sUtra bhAshya 1.1.5. Yes, Ishwara’s sarvajnatvaM, sarvashaktitvaM etc. are in the realm of avidyA kshetra as it is upAdhi vishesha vyavahAra but it does not mean we can deny the svabhAva of parabrahman. Please refer the quotes and if required we will discuss it further.
It is as good as saying since there is no outside objects to ‘see’, the eyes do not have its seeing power 😊 The seeing or cognizing power is inherent and whenever situation demands these power will be exercised.
That doesn't seem to be a right example. When brahman alone exists from parmartha, what is there to know? In your example if an object appears then the power of seeing will be known. When there is no jagat and only brahman exits, what can be known other than the knower?
Ø Yes that is exactly the point eventhough when there is nothing to be known, knower’s knowing power cannot be denied as it is inherent in HIM. Perhaps you may be having the Ishwara’s sarvajnatvaM etc. has been explained as due to avidyAkruta upAdhi ( in sU. Bh. 2.1.14) but that is not an accurate deduction to conclude that sarvajnatvaM is wholly a mere figment of avidyA. Yes, brahman may not be the knower of all from the pAramarthic standpoint as there is really nothing else to be known. But the consciousness of the knowing nature itself, is the intrinsic nature of braman/reality and as such it can never be isolated from brahman. Check the bhAshya references quoted above.