Bhaskar Yr question

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Michael Chandra Cohen

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Apr 26, 2023, 4:00:40 PM4/26/23
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The Original Post: 

It is not world but attachment to the world, people, things-Is the root of all misery.Free from attachment, One can live in the world as anywhere like forests,Mountains


AND BHASKAR JI'S RESPONSE:
pranaams, I am not a knowledgeable person by any stretch of imagination. I just liked that post because I thought it was talking about detachment and our adhyArOpa like asarvatvaM / abrahmatvaM / paricchinatvam on the ‘already ever existing tattva’. I don’t think the message which I liked is talking about anything similar to ‘ detachment from external world and at the same time by keeping his /her attachment to the finite knower (jnAtru / kartru / pramAtru) or in short upAdhi buddhi. As we all know jnAtru, jneya and jnana still in the realm of avidyA only. So, if one thinks that he is finite jeeva but at the same time has the detachment from external tiny world (free from rAga dvesha (attachment) ) it is still in avidyA kshetra only since the parichinnatva still holds sway there. So detachment in its full sense comes only after getting rid of parichinnatvaM of both jeeva and jagat. That is called bhUma drushti / sarvAtmabhAva / samyagdrushti / Atmaikatva darshana. In this drushti there is neither tiny soul nor jagat with limited boundaries nor conditioned three legged transactions like pramAtru, prameya and pramANa. He realization is that he is anna, annaada and shlokakarta as well. There is no room for any parichinnatvaM with respect to jeeva and jagat it is ONLY jnAni’s paripUrNa drushti. And this sarvAtmabhAva destroys the jnAtrutva / kart  utva / bhOktrutva in the paramArtha jnAni (sUtra bhAshya 4-1-13. This is because there is no avidyA kAma karma etc. at all in the fruit of the brahma vidyA or sarvAtmabhAva or mOksha. sarvAtmabhAvO mOkshO vidyAphalaM kriyAkArakaphalashUnyaM ….yatra avidyAdi kAmakarmaNi na saNti says bhagavatpAda in bruhad bhAshya. Anyway, I will be careful before liking any post in a hurry 
🙏🙏

and my question, please sir,
 my understanding is that savAtmabhAva is distinct from turiya or atmaikatva vidya, i.e., all is Brahma/Atma is different from only Brahma alone or have simply taken poetics privilege ? 

Bhaskar YR

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Apr 28, 2023, 1:53:42 AM4/28/23
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my understanding is that savAtmabhAva is distinct from turiya or atmaikatva vidya, i.e., all is Brahma/Atma is different from only Brahma alone

 

praNAms Sri Chandra prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

IMHO, two are not entirely different avasthA-s (states), sarvAtmabhAva is the bhuma drushti when the paramArtha jnAni still seeing the world as brahman and not different from brahman!!.  And Atmaikatva vidyA or turiya is that jnana itself.  Realizing that he is sarvaM when he is seeing sarvaM does not mean he is not tureeya or he is not having the Atmaikatva vidyA.  The person called ‘Charudatta’ is same charudatta only when he is folding his limbs or stretching his limbs ( bhAshyakAra himself gives this example somewhere).  It is because of the simple fact that jnAni knows that for the ‘sarvaM’ (jagat) brahman is the only abhinna nimittopadAna kAraNa and brahman as kAraNa is in effect (kaarya) but in kAraNa there are no effects (kaarya), matsthAni sarvabhutaani …….na cha matsthAni bhUtAni says lord.  I am in the kaarya is sarvAtmabhAva and in me there is no transactions or effects is the Atmaikatva or tureeya jnana where duality is denied without any trace ( neha nAnAsti kiMchana).  Such complete denial of transactions of the avasthAtraya is what is implied in tureeya / Atmaikatva darshana.  IMO, this is nirvishesha svarUpa jnana and this is also sarvAtmabhAva, how so!!??  Because though there seems transactions in sarvAtmabhAva (like ‘sarvaM’ (prameya) and I am (pramAtru) is the ONE in ALL etc.)  there is really no transaction at all in this paramArtha jnAni.  His jnana is intact in both Atmaikatva jnana and sarvAtmabhAva.  It is because of that reason bhAshyakAra says sarvAtmabhAva is mOksha because in that bhAva there is absolute absence of kriya, kAraka and phalam.  Shruti itself says that he who understands himself as brahman will become all this  ya evaM veda ahaM brahmAsmeeti sa idam sarvaM bhavati.   If that is not the case then we are forced to accept tureeya or the Atmaikatva darshana is possible only in a particular state called tureeyaavasthA ( A forth state of Atman and as per some, it can be achieved ONLY in the state of nirvikalpa samAdhi since in this state only mind is inert and there is complete absence of external world !!)  and sarvaatmabhAva which is a different state in which sarvaM implies ‘difference’ and is Atman or me implies abedha hence it is something inferior to tureeya state!!  As you know, this conclusion is  untenable in shankara’s Advaita vedAnta.  In short, mOkshAvastha is not vyavahaara shUnya but it is vyavahAra badhita Atma svarUpa jnana. 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

SRINIVASAN Raghuraman

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Apr 28, 2023, 11:46:32 PM4/28/23
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Just the week Nobel prize goes to Advatin/Quantum physicist...............All come off it soon now. No one knows consciousness.

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Michael Chandra Cohen

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Apr 29, 2023, 1:15:54 PM4/29/23
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aum and pranam Blessed Bhaskarji, 

Thanks for your clear response - I agree with all your points. I think the difference attaches only to one's drsti. From Paramarthika there cannot be sarva of any sort while from vyavaharika, appearances continue. The question then is what does the jnani himself see - does he (who is he?) see and partake in the world or does he no longer see nor partake in the world or does he have two views? I think SSSS would argue the middle alternative -- that is what I learned from Atmanandendraji and his student, Atma Chaitanya ji, is the correct view. As there is no jnani, there can be no one to see nor anything to be seen and there are ample supportive citations. Would you agree?

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sunil bhattacharjya

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Apr 29, 2023, 8:25:11 PM4/29/23
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Dear Shri Michael Chandra Cohen,

When the Jnani learns and finally realises the imparmanence of the vyavaharika world, his attachment to the vyavaharika world drastically gets reduced / destroyed and eventually gets vanished, and this is best called as his becoming vasanashunya and he also becoming unmindful of the vyavaharika world, or in other words, he achieves Manonasha. Upanishad also uses the wording as becoming manah-shunya.

Even though the such a jnani does live in the vyavaharika world till he becomes videhamukta, i.e., till he leaves his body (i.e., till he leaves both the shthula and the Shukshma sareeras), he is as good as one who crossed the cycle of birth and death. The Vyavaharika world does not affect him.








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sreenivasa murthy

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Apr 29, 2023, 9:43:52 PM4/29/23
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Dear Sri Sunil Bhattachariya,

What you have written is completely erroneous.

It goes against the spirit of the teachings of Upanishads and Sri Shankara.
Kindly study and understand the mantras 6-7 and 6-8 of Prashnopanishad
and commentary of Sri Shankara to those mantras .


Sri J.Krishnamurti has made a very profound statement in one
of his meetings. It reads thus :Do not utter even a single word
which you yourself has not understood or cognized within yourself.

With respectful namaskars,
Sreenivasa Murthy.



On Sunday, 30 April, 2023 at 04:46:58 am IST, sunil bhattacharjya via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:


Dear Shri Michael Chandra Cohen,

When the Jnani learns and finally realises the imparmanence of the
vyavaharika world, his attachment to the vyavaharika world drastically gets
reduced / destroyed and eventually gets vanished, and this is best called
as his becoming vasanashunya and he also becoming unmindful of the
vyavaharika world, or in other words, he achieves Manonasha. Upanishad also
uses the wording as becoming manah-shunya.

Even though the such a jnani does live in the vyavaharika world till he
becomes videhamukta, i.e., till he leaves his body (i.e., till he leaves
both the shthula and the Shukshma sareeras), he is *as good as* one who

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sunil bhattacharjya

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Apr 30, 2023, 12:59:44 AM4/30/23
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Dear Shri Sreenivasa Murthy,

Firstly, you may be a great fan of Shri J.  Krishnamurti, but not me. So please don't quote him in discussions on Advaita.

Secondly, Please don't just make vague assertions, without being able to give  any details.

Thirdly, one who read and understaood Lord Krishna's following statement in the Bhagavatam as well as in the Mahabharata, has surely understood  the concept of Advaita, and even Shri Gaudapadacharya was so influenced by this verse, that he even quoted this verse in his Mandukya Karika.
"If a thing is non—existent both in the beginning and in the end, it is necessarily non—existent in the present. The objects that we see are really like illusions; still they are regarded as real."
The Reality of the Vyavaharika world is nothing but like illusion. Once one understands this, one would be able to withdraw one's mind from the  vyavaharika world. Once one does that,  one becomes able to realize the truth that there is nothing other than the Brahman. 

Sincerely,
skb

sreenivasa murthy

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Apr 30, 2023, 10:40:07 AM4/30/23
to adva...@googlegroups.com, sunil bhattacharjya via Advaita-l
Dear Sri Sunil Bhattachariya,

   My refutation pertains to Your statements Viz."

When the Jnani learns and finally realises the imparmanence of the
vyavaharika world, his attachment to the vyavaharika world drastically gets
reduced / destroyed and eventually gets vanished, and this is best called

as his becoming vasanashunya and he also becoming unmindful of thevyavaharika world, or in other words, he achieves Manonasha. Upanishad also uses the wording as becoming manah-shunya." only.

What you have written is nothing but persons making statements
without knowing the genuine tradition of Upanishad sages.
In the major ten upanishads you will never come across a word like that.
Do you know who is a Jnani And what is his nature? Kindly refer to Bhagavadgita.
If a jnani is manah-shunya, how is he going impart upadesha to a student?
If he is a manah-shunya he is no better than a vegetable or stone.

These misconceptions have crept into vedantic tradition
because of ignorance of facts and anubhava.

May The Indwelling Atman remove all such conceptions
and bless you with right knowledge.

With this I close the correspondence.

Your wellwisher,
Sreenivasa Murthy.



sunil bhattacharjya

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Apr 30, 2023, 1:07:11 PM4/30/23
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Dear Shri Sreenivasa Murthy,

You wrote as follows:
what you have written is nothing but persons making statements
without knowing the genuine tradition of Upanishad sages.
In the major ten upanishads you will never come across a word like that.
Which genuine tradition did  I violate?. Which word are you referring to in my writing?  Dont try to be vengeful, when you don't understand something. An advaitin has to understand the impermanence of the vyavaharika world, and for Arjun to understand this concept, Lord Krishna told this concept  to Arjuna in the very beginning of his teaching in the original Bhagavad Gita,

With good wishes.

skb





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sreenivasa murthy

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Apr 30, 2023, 9:24:43 PM4/30/23
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Dear Sunil Bhattachariya,

Kindly study and understand the import of the following Upanishad mantras
with an open mind by keeping aside all your conceptions and knowledge aside.

Sri Shankara says : sarvaM hi nAnatvam brahmaNi kalpitamEva ||
What does it mean? How can a kalpitavastu be destroyed? Who has to destroy?
Sri Shankara writes in his commentary to Sutra 2-1-6 of Brahmasutra thus :
(1) svapnAMtabuddhAMtayOruBayOH itarEtaravyaBicArAt AtmanO ananvAgatatvam |
(2) saMprasAdE ca prapaMcaparityAgEna sadAtmanA saMpattEH niShprapaMcasadAtmatvam|
and (3) prapaMcasya brahmapraBavatvAt kAryakAraNAnanyanyAyEna brahmAvyatirEkaH ||

         Clarion call of Upanishads:

ahamEvedagM sarvam || Chandogya 7-25-1

AtmaivEdagM  sarvam || Chandogya 7-25-2

sa AtmA advaitaH || Mandukya Mantra7

atrAyaM    puruShaH svayamjyOtirBavati || Bruhadarnyaka 4-3-9

 

Hence aham which is HERE & NOW is AtmA.

So I am advaitaH, prapaMcOpaSamaH and svayaMjyOtiH  HERE & NOW.

In the light of the above teachings, where is jnani as an entity,
where is ajnani as an entity,  where is mind,etc. etc. ?

 This is a fact of everyone's life and it can be verified

by every one by himself within oneself.


I am not talking / writing through my hat.
Whatever I have stated is based upon Sruti mantras and Sri Shakara's upadESa.

With warm regards,
Sreenivasa Murthy


Rammohan Subramaniam

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Apr 30, 2023, 9:39:09 PM4/30/23
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Avadhuta Gita:
आत्मैव केवलं सर्वं भेदाभेदो न विद्यते ।
अस्ति नास्ति कथं ब्रूयां विस्मयः प्रतिभाति मे ॥ ४॥
All is verily the absolute Self. Distinction and non-distinction do not exist. How can I say, "It (the universe) exists; it does not exist"? I am filled with wonder !

sunil bhattacharjya

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Apr 30, 2023, 11:56:04 PM4/30/23
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Dear  Sreenivasa murthy,

You are so much against the validity of the word "Manah-shunya" used in the Upanishad and that clearly shows that you are not open to the 108 Upanishads, validated by none other than Lord Ram Himself. First go to a good guru and remove your bias against the recognized upanishads.

Secondly, I do have very great respect for Adi Shankaracharya, but I don't support your attempt to pit Adi Shankaracharya against Lord Krishna, whom Adi Shankara himself adored in Bhaja Govindam (also known as Moha Mudgara).

For liberation one has to leave not only the Shthula-Shareera (i.e., the physical body),which has the ten Indriyas, one will have also has to go beyond the Shuksma Shareera (i.e., the Astral-body) of  the Manah, Buddhi and Ahamkara. Manah-Nasha/ Manah-Shunya is a very basic concept, for liberation. You don't understand this does not mean that there should bt fighting. Let us agree to disagree.

Good wishes,
skb


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sunil bhattacharjya

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May 1, 2023, 12:21:52 AM5/1/23
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Yes that'sight. No quarrel on this.

Bhaskar YR

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May 2, 2023, 7:37:42 AM5/2/23
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praNAms Sri Michel Chandra prabhuji

Hare Krishna


Thanks for your clear response - I agree with all your points. I think the difference attaches only to one's drsti. From Paramarthika there cannot be sarva of any sort while from vyavaharika, appearances continue.

 

  • Yes, appearances continue for the jnAni also due to basic design of all indriya-s (senses) including mind inevitably go outwards due to ‘his’ prArabdha.  Even when he is seeing outside, the sarvam that which he is seeing outisde is brahman only nothing but brahman.  samaM pashyati sarvatra, sarvatra samadarshinaH, panditAH samadarshinaH etc. says he is though seeing ‘sarvam’ outside he would have ekatva drushti.  Sri SSS gives the example of a professional goldsmith who sees only the gold (kAraNa) in all ornaments (name and forms / kArya) because he knows only ‘gold’ what it matters behind all ornaments. 

 

The question then is what does the jnani himself see - does he (who is he?) see and partake in the world

 

  • What jnAni see??  bhAshyakAra explains he is samyakdarshi the result of this samyakdarshana is sarvAtmatva.  (3-3-32 samyakdarshanakAlameva tatphalaM sarvAtmatvaM darshayati).  So, if at all we are ascribing individuality to jnAni, if at all we are seeing A ‘jnAni’ in his individual compartment (BMI) his darshana is sarvAtmadarshana or samyagdarshana, the darshana or jnana of the existing !!  this is not ayatArtha jnana of the vastu it is yathArthajnAna of what is ever existing!!

 

 

or does he no longer see nor partake in the world

 

  • If above is the result of paramArtha jnana then we should say immediately after paramArtha jnana, a jnAni would meet his physical death!!??  No need to say it is apasiddhAnta. 

 

or does he have two views?

 

  • vyavahAra bAdhita drushti  and not vyavahAra abhAva sthiti (sublated view of transactions not).  bhAshyakAra explains this beautifully in sUtra bhAshya.2-1-13 more relevant here I reckon.     

 

 

I think SSSS would argue the middle alternative -- that is what I learned from Atmanandendraji and his student, Atma Chaitanya ji, is the correct view. As there is no jnani, there can be no one to see nor anything to be seen and there are ample supportive citations. Would you agree?

 

Ø     See there are seemingly two contradictory stands in bhAshya with regard to embodiedness (sashareeratvaM of the jnAni), at one place shankara says (1-1-4) that embodiedness is kevala avidyAkalpita and ashareeratvaM (disembodiedness) is svAbhAvika for the Atman.  And at some other place he says jnAni even after samyaK jnana continue to engage / use his senses / organs and continue his activities like speech etc. (4th chapter in sUtra) and yet another place he says jnAni-s like apAntaratama-s would be there somewhere and when demand arises and when paramAtma orders them they will incarnate by dragging their remaining prArabdha etc. How to reconcile this ??  Some traditionalists argue that jnAni’s body, his prArabdha, his avidyAlesha, his activities NOT just seen by ajnAni-s in vyavahAra it is indeed the prArabdha karma phala of some jeeva who attained the status of jnAni but still subject to prArabdha.  If this is what is the stand of traditional Advaita then there is no scope for Atmachaitanya’s assertion that ‘there is no individual jnAni but there is ONLY jnAna’!!?? 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

Bhaskar

 

PS::  Some decades back I used to interact with Sri Atmachaitanya prabhuji in Advaitin/Advaita-L list and personally as well.  But all of a sudden he disappeared from social media.  Have heard anything about him recently?? Please let me know. 

 

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