Shankara Advaita Vijaya Pratishthanam - Launch (Live)

[V Subrahmanian]

https://www.youtube.com/live/Qmb0P-9-eBY?si=XOsveBfwQcTpfRAC

[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

PraNAms to all.

There is lot of confusion in the Facebook discussion groups - many coming from Ramana Maharshi groups -1. Samadhi is required for Self-Realization and 2) the mind needs to be eliminated to attain Samadhi for self-realization (mana vinasha). Many quote from the books that have question-answers sessions Ramana Maharshi had with disciples. There are also many disciples of Ramana Maharshi who further endorse the above statements. There are also JK groups that denounce all methods as they all condition the mind. 

Some even quote Vivekachudamani sloka 447 or something that says the mind is a problem and one has to have a thoughtless mind for self-realization. 

1. What do you think is samadhi? 

2. Is a thoughtless mind required for self-realization?

3. What do you think is involved in self-realization?

4. Is akhandaakaara vrutti involves thoughtless state? 

I am posing these to get input from all the scholars here. 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri Sada prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

A quick note from the desk of amateur vedAnti on your queries and you can always wait for clarifications from ‘scholars’.

 

1.   Samadhi is required for Self-Realization

 

• Yes it is required but it is not like asaMprajnAta samAdhi which is experienced in mind inert state after suppressing the chitta vrutti (chitta vrutti nirOdha). It is not patanjala praNeeta samAdhi but it is the result of vaidika dhyAna and samAdhi and this samAdhi jnana is not avasthA vishesha like asaMprajnAta samAdhi.

 

2.   and 2) the mind needs to be eliminated to attain Samadhi for self-realization (mana vinasha).

 

• manO nAsha, sakashAya, vAsanA kshaya etc. needs to be attained through vedAnta vAkya SMN not through patanjali’s dhAraNa, dhyAna and samAdhi.

 

Many quote from the books that have question-answers sessions Ramana Maharshi had with disciples. There are also many disciples of Ramana Maharshi who further endorse the above statements.

 

• I don’t think hardcore ramaNa followers would endorse ‘time-bound’ samAdhi experience OTOH it is Sahaja samAdhi which ramaNa always in.  mahA yOga have elaborated the difference between Sahaja samAdhi and yOga samAdhi.

 

There are also JK groups that denounce all methods as they all condition the mind. 

Some even quote Vivekachudamani sloka 447 or something that says the mind is a problem and one has to have a thoughtless mind for self-realization. 

 

Ø     Yes, VC very conspicuously endorses the mandatory experience of nirvikalpa samAdhi to have the practical experience of Atmaikatva.  bhAmati school does not have any doubt in propagating the same.  And HH Sri Abhinava vidyAteertha too narrates how he often entered the samAdhi at particular time, though he does not categorically insisted the mandatory experience of NS he emphasized the importance of this experience in his work called :  “yOga perfection and enlightenment”.  And some prakaraNa-s like paNchadashi, JMV etc. without any ambiguity endorses the mandatory experience of yOga samAdhi and grades of jnAni-s bases on yOga samAdhi experience and the method they adopt to return back to normalcy. 

 

1.   What do you think is samadhi? 

>  samAdhi is sama chitta, sama darshana, Samyak jnana which is the result of vAkya janita vastu tantra jnana as per AV.

 

2.   Is a thoughtless mind required for self-realization?

 

Ø     As said above manO nAsha or prapancha pravilaya is adhyAtmika yOga as explained in katha not as per patanjala’s deliberate suppression of chitta vrutti.  As a matter of fact bhAshyakAra himself says chitta vrutti nirOdha is not a means for self-realization.

 

3.   What do you think is involved in self-realization?

>  avidyA nivrutti, svarUpa jnana (self-luminous) effort is required to eradicate avidyA and vidyA / jnana is not a thing obtained afresh through some ‘effort’. 

 

4.   Is akhandaakaara vrutti involves thoughtless state? 

• Strictly speaking both avidyA and vidyA vrutti would happen in antaHkaraNa only and in Atman there is no vidyAvidya vrutti vyavahAra.   

 

I am posing these to get input from all the scholars here. 

 

Ø     Paradon my brevity here,  But you know the reason.  Some prakriya-s advocated by some asampradAyavAdins are not so palatable for the saMpradAya ‘scholars’ in this group 😊

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

 

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste Sadanandaji,

Samadhi is the state when one is not conscious about the body, both-physical and the subtle-bodyS Subtle-body controlled means the mind is fully controlled and it will not disturb the dhyana. In that state the person is in Samadhi. Both Ramana Maharshi and JK were right as we need not take every word literally. Mano nAsha means just achieving the state of meditation when the mind is absolutely inactive at that time.

My 2cents.

skb

[Vikram Jagannathan]

Namaskaram Shri Archarya ji,

Definitely not a scholar, merely sharing some thoughts; hoping to receive guidance:

I certainly believe that there is a far more nuanced acceptance of Yoga in Advaita Vedanta than mere outright rejection of all of Yoga in its entirety. Shri Vidyasankar ji’s chapter in the book “Yoga: The Indian Tradition” is an excellent reappraisal on this topic.

Here is my current understanding:
Vedanta sadhana of shravana, manana, nidhidhyasana of maha-vakyas, by a qualified seeker, leads to the formation of akhandakara vritti in the antahkarana. Akhandakara vritti is a type of chitta vritti wherein the object of the vritti is chidabasa itself. Since the chidabasa of sattvika antahkarana is akhanda, the corresponding vritti is akhandakara. As the akhandakara vritti vyapti matches the chidabasa itself, there is no need for an additional chidabasa vyapti (phala vyapti). At this point, the antahkarana directly recognizes (as vritti jnana) the true nature of chidabasa and consequently realizes the true nature of Chaitanya itself. This vritti jnana is considered as the self-knowledge (atma-jnana) or knowledge of oneness (Brahman-Atman-ekatvam). This knowledge is said to be the one that overcomes ignorance. Ignorance is misunderstanding the nature & qualities of chidabasa and antahkarana. The knowledge of oneness brings about the correct understanding of their nature & qualities, revealing the object chidabasa as it is. The experience in this state is the experience of abundance of bliss. With this correct understanding, desires are subdued as well, since desires are only manifested as particular vritits and with experience of abundance of bliss, there are no more any desires originating. With the lack of desires to fuel the antahkarana, this one-pointed akhandakara vritti itself gets extinguished, subduing the entire antahkarana itself. With the antahkara subdued, chidabasa itself is subdued and all that remains is pure Chaitanya alone. This is called aparokshanubhuti.

Summarizing:
1. In this state akhandakara vritti, though there is a vritti in antahkarana, the vritti is one-pointed, pointing to the object akhanda chidabasa, and is called self-knowledge
2. This one-pointed state makes clear the object - chidabasa - as it is and not intermixed with functionings of antahkarana
3. It destroys the ignorance manifested at the antahkarana level by overcoming the misunderstanding or superimposition of the chidabasa & antahkarana
4. With this, the desires and desire prompted thoughts in the antahkarana are removed as well.
5. This state of self-knowledge, still a vritti jnana, automatically results in the extinguishing of the entire antahkara and its vrittis
6. In the absence of any vrittis, that state itself is called as the state of no-mind or as transcended the mind or as absolute chitta vritti nirodha (complete cessation of all chitta vrittis) or aparokshanubhuti

Based on the definitions in Yoga Sutra, its bhashya and corresponding vivarana, it is seen that:
a. The state of akhandakara vritti, knowledge of oneness, matches the description of samprajnata samadhi, with the object being chidabasa
b. The state transcending the knowledge of oneness, after extinguishing the akhandakara vritti and antahkarana itself, matches the description of asamprajnata samadhi or complete chitta vritti nirodha
c. Aligning with Swami Sankaracharya’s bhasha in BU-1.4.7, the self-knowledge automatically leads to chitta vritti nirodha. Thus the self-knowledge (atma-vijnana) is the sole / direct means (ananya sadhana) to chitta vritti nirodha

Further we see the bhashya for YogaSutra-1.1 describing the samprajnata samadhi as “the samadhi in the on-pointed mind makes clear the object as it is, destroys the taints, loosens the karma-bonds, and brings the state of inhibition into view; it is called samprajnata.” This exactly matches the summary 1 - 6!

Also, in YogaSutra-1.2, Yoga (asamprajnata samadhi) is defined as chitta vritti nirodha. This includes all possible means (sadhanas) on how this state is reached. But Advaita Vedanta sadhana says that vedanta-vakya-janita akhandakara vritti jnana alone, and always, automatically leads to this total chitta vritti nirodha state without any effort.

Therefore, while the Yoga definitions of the terms ‘samadhi’ (as samprajnata samadhi) and ‘chitta vritti nirodha’ (as asamprajnata samadhi) are too broad, as it could pertain to any object, the Advaita Vedanta sadhana limits these same yoga terms to ‘akhandakara vritti’ and ‘aparokshanubhuti’ respectively.

Open to feedback and ready to stand corrected.

with humble prostrations,
Vikram

[dwa...@advaita.org.uk]

Dear Sada,

 

I wrote this article on the meaning of samAdhi in Vivekachudamani back in 2019: https://www.advaita-vision.org/samadhi-in-vivekachudamani/.

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

--

[dwa...@advaita.org.uk]

Apologies. I also wrote a two-part article just on samAdhi beginning https://www.advaita-vision.org/samadhi-part1/.

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

From: 'Kuntimaddi Sadananda' via advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 1, 2024 3:24 AM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; Advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [advaitin] What is Samadhi?

 

PraNAms to all.

 

 

 

--

[Akilesh Ayyar]

Namaste,

1. Samadhi means different one things in different contexts. In one context, it is a state of profound concentration which I like to call a “special mode of the ego” whereby the usual separation between subject and object is not felt. It becomes, so to say, exceedingly subtle. That very same samadhi, actually, in a deeper meaning, is simply the continuous tone of the Self contemplating itself, so to say. That is, samadhi is Reality. So states of mental samadhi are in some sense reflections of the deeper samadhi. As a state, samadhi is basically obtained through intense concentration of some sort.
2. I would argue that samadhi is not precisely a thoughtless mind. It is a mind utterly dominated by a single thought. That is the mind of samadhi. And yes, at least for one “moment” or “kshana,” this kind of samadhi is required for realization. It need not be sustained for long. It is just that the mirror of mind needs to be perfectly clean for one glinting moment so that one can recognize one’s reflection. 
   
3. Self-realization is the recognition of the ineffable nature of the illusion that sustains identification. It comes, when attachments are sufficiently weakened and by God’s grace, the mind recognizes its own mental nature as jada, in some sense, and thus its own deeper nature as cit. The truth is, realization is a bit of a paradox. It straddles the border between two perspectives: one in which there is a seeker, a sought, ignorance and a finder, time and space, etc. — and the second perspective is one in which none of these obtain, including realization. So realization is an insight that destroys its own possibility, actually. 
4. The akhandaakaara vrutti can arise only in a mental state of samadhi, but this samadhi is not equivalent to it. A further act of discernment, in samadhi, granted by God’s Grace, must obtain, so that one can recognize the perfect image in the mirror of mind — samadhi is like this image — as one’s Self.
   

Akilesh Ayyar

Spiritual guidance - http://www.siftingtothetruth.com/

[sreenivasa murthy]

Poojya  Acharya Sadanandaji,

Please permit me to draw your kind attention to

the following Sruti mantras :

manasA Eva idamAptavyam

nEha nAnAsti kiMcana || Kathopanishad 2-1-11

ahamEvedagM sarvam || Chandogya 7-25-1

AtmaivEdagM sarvam || Chandogya 7-25-2

AtmaivEdagM sarvam || Chandogya 7-26-1

Sri Shankara writes in his commentary to sutra 2-1-6 thus :

  prapaMcasya brahmapraBavatvAt

kAryakAraNAnanyanyAyEna brahmAvyatiriktah||

The above quoted mantras should help you in getting

the answers to your questions.

With respectful pranams,

Sreenivasa Murthy

On Thursday, 1 February, 2024 at 08:54:39 am IST, Kuntimaddi Sadananda via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

PraNAms to all.
There is lot of confusion in the Facebook discussion groups - many coming from Ramana Maharshi groups -1. Samadhi is required for Self-Realization and 2) the mind needs to be eliminated to attain Samadhi for self-realization (mana vinasha). Many quote from the books that have question-answers sessions Ramana Maharshi had with disciples. There are also many disciples of Ramana Maharshi who further endorse the above statements. There are also JK groups that denounce all methods as they all condition the mind. 
Some even quote Vivekachudamani sloka 447 or something that says the mind is a problem and one has to have a thoughtless mind for self-realization. 

1. What do you think is samadhi? 2. Is a thoughtless mind required for self-realization?3. What do you think is involved in self-realization?4. Is akhandaakaara vrutti involves thoughtless state? 

I am posing these to get input from all the scholars here. 
Hari Om!Sadananda

 
 
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[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

Dennis - Greetings.

First thanks for the two-part article; after reading those I could not reach any conclusion in terms of nirvikalpa samadhi and its role on Self realization and how is it related to akhadaakara vrutti.

Can you summarize what exactly you finally understand what is involved in Self Realization and is samadhi - required for it, etc. 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/000701da5504%242c919720%2485b4c560%24%40advaita.org.uk.

[Vikram Jagannathan]

Namaskaram Shri Acharya ji,

Sorry, I missed responding to the explicit questions. This is not intended to be an answer but only more of self-reflection:

1. What do you think is samadhi?

Samadhi, very broadly defining, is the continued persistence (sthiti) of any antahkarana vritti, between vritti changes. An example given in YogaSutraBhashyaVivarana is that even while walking there is a very brief moment between the steps when one stands still. But this momentary stillness is very short and thus not considered as actual stillness. Same with the mental states and vritti changes. Samadhi thus is more applicable to one-pointed vritti or no-vritti states.

As seen in the earlier email, one-pointed vritti on a particular object is samadhi (samprajnata or savikalpa) too. Thus, true dhyana / upasana also is samadhi. Similarly, in Advaita Vedanta, akhandakara vritti is a form of samadhi.

Furthermore, the state of no vritti is also samadhi (asamprajnata or nirvikalpa). In Advaita Vedanta, the state (due to lack of any other word) that transcends even the akhandakara vritti, after the later too is extinguished, transcends all vrittis and hence is termed as samadhi as well. In the Upanishad language this state is termed turiya.

However, following this, when antahkarana wakes up again, due to influence of prarabdha karma, there dawns the realization (in the antahkarana) that the turiya is not a distinct state but is the very foundation of all other experiences. 

Therefore, even though the other states may come and go, this foundation ever persists. In the language of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's teachings, this realization is termed as Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

2. Is a thoughtless mind required for self-realization?

No. Thoughtless mind is not required for self-realization. On the other hand, this thoughtless mind is the natural and automatic followup (again, lack of any other word) of self-realization.

To explain, it is accepted in Advaita Vedanta that following akhandakara vritti, which too is only a vritti, all vrittis, including this, gets extinguished. Thus, in this state there are no vrittis whatsoever.

Now, just as the flow of water is called a river and in the absence of water, there is nothing whatsoever called as a river; in the same way, flow of thoughts (vrittis) is called as the mind (antahkarana) and in the absence of thoughts, there is nothing called as the mind.

But it doesn't persist long under the influence of residual prarabdha karma.

3. What do you think is involved in self-realization?

My understanding has been shared in the earlier email.

4. Is akhandaakaara vrutti involves thoughtless state?

No. By definition, akhandakara vritti is a vritti as well. Since a vritti is translated as thought, akhandakara vritti is not a thoughtless state. However, the immediate followup of akhandakara vritti is the thoughtless state.

Thank you for this opportunity for more reflection.

with humble prostrations,

Vikram

On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 11:37 PM Vikram Jagannathan <vikky...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaskaram Shri Acharya ji,

[sreenivasa murthy]

Dear Sri Vikram Jagannathan,

      Sri Shankara , in his commemtary to mantra 1-2-12 Of Kathopanishad 

       which reads as 

                     adhyAtmayOgAdhigamEna dEvaM 

                     matvA dhirO harShaSOkau jahati |,

       writes thus :

                 viShayEByaH pratisaMhRtya Atmani 

                 samAdhAnam adhyAtmayOgah ||

This one upadESa is enough and covers all the verbal explanations 

given by you in your posting.

With respecyful pranams,

Sreenivasa Murthy

 

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/46047575.1994153.1706757866436%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .

[Bhaskar YR]

Can you summarize what exactly you finally understand what is involved in Self Realization and is samadhi - required for it, etc. 

 

praNAms Sri Sada prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

I reckon these two observations from Dennis prabhuji’s article would suffice to understand his perspective on samAdhi.  And being a follower of Sri paramArthAnandaji I hope you too would agree with him.

 

//quote//

 whereas what I would call ‘traditional’ Advaitins believe that Shankara’s teaching was that it is self-ignorance that obscures our understanding of the truth and that only self-knowledge can remove it. Thus, one of the key issues around the topic of neo-Vedanta is that of experience versus knowledge.

 

But the most convincing argument for not including nirvikalpa samAdhi (in the Patanjali sense) as part of advaita is one I heard recently from Swami Paramarthananda. He argues that Patanjali, having written about this in his yoga sutras, and being regarded as the highest authority in the yoga philosophy, must obviously himself have experienced nirvikalpa samAdhi. Consequently, if its result is as has been argued by the neo-Vedantins, then Patanjali should be the greatest Advaitin ever. And yet his philosophy claims that there are many Atmans and that the world is real. So one has to conclude that his experience of nirvikalpa samAdhi led him to dualism and not non-dualism! Swami Paramarthananda’s last word on the subject is that we can happily be liberated without nirvikalpa samAdhi!

 

//Unquote//

 

If I am right not only bhAmati vehemently insisted the mandatory experience of ‘yOga school type samAdhi’ even in vivaraNa school too this non-dual practical experience advocated. Though as per this school the jnana of I am brahman devoid of any duality (nishprapancha etc. ) is the result of shAstra vihita vedAntavAkya shravaNa.  After the vAkya jnana dawns  the qualified jnAni ( he is mere qualified seeker of mOksha at this stage) has to continue to practice both the vedAnta vAkya shravaNa and vAkya janita jnana over and over again and over a period of time he would become aparOksha jnAni and he will be considered as custodian of direct intuitive knowledge.  But even for this aparOksha jnAni there is prArabdha and avidyA lesha hence he would continue to see the duality of world when he is not in asaMprajnAta samAdhi.  And for him, on certain occasions he would get the practical and ‘literal’ experience of Atmaikatvam. 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

 

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste.

I have not come across anywhere in Bhamati School or VivaraNa School that Nirvikalpa Samadhi of the type advocated by Sri Patanjali Maharshi is mandatory, or even recommended, for Realization as advanced by the Advaitic School. If anyone has come across such declarations, please provide the references.

Regards

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[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

And further below observations from Sri Dennis prabhuji’s article say that few initial stages of patanjali’s ashtanga yOga not completely out of syllabus in traditional shankarAdvaita and it has been accepted ‘as it is’..  For that matter Sri VidyA prabhuji ( Sri Vidyashankar Sundareshan prabhuji) too agreed that dhyAna and samAdhi as explained in Advaita vedAnta in general and shankara bhAshya in particular something different from orthodox patanjala yOga.  Paramatam apratishiddham anumataM bhavati…that does not mean shankara advocated NS in a mind inert state as a means for self-realization.  Having said this noway Advaita belittling the dualistic yOga school and its practices, it has its own flavor and significance for its followers.  All respects to them. 

 

//quote//

 

Advaita borrows a number of elements from Sankhya and Yoga philosophies. For example, the teaching about the guNa-s is essentially from Sankhya (although Sankhya treats them as actual physical parts of prakRRiti, whereas Advaita regards them as merely attributes). And the satkArya vAda theory (which is that the effect is pre-existent in the cause) is used in the initial stages of the teaching, although it is later rescinded. Furthermore, Shankara is happy to make use of the initial practices of yoga, referred to in Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras as rAja or aShTA~Nga yoga. These include the moral injunctions (yama-s), such as not injuring others, being truthful and modest, not stealing and so on; the obligatory standards of behavior (niyama-s) such as purity of mind, austerity and studying the scriptures; the asana-s and prANayAma of haTha yoga etc. There is much similarity and overlap with Shankara’s advocated sAdhana chatuShTaya sampatti (which stem from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, I believe) so they pose no problems.

But there is a danger in taking this too far, and considering nirvikalpa samAdhi as understood by Patanjali to be an aspect of advaita is definitely taking things too far. According to Advaita, nirvikalpa samAdhi is only a means for obtaining single pointedness of the mind (the samAdhAna of sAdhana chatuShTaya sampatti), not a means for knowing brahman.

//unquote//

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste.

SamAdhi is if two types ;; चित्तवृत्तिनिरोध (chittavRRittinirodha) and   चित्तएकाग्रत  (chittaekAgrata) types. The former is what is advocated in the Yoga Darshana School while the latter is what is advocated in the Advaitic School. Gradations are recognized in the sAdhana path in both schools. In Advaitic School, the terms used are उपासन (upAsana) निदिध्यासन (nididhyAsana) ब्रह्मसंस्थ (brahmasaMstha) ब्रह्मनिष्ठ        (brahmaniShTha) etc. These can be understood as corresponding to the terms used in the Yoga Darshana School like धारण (dhAraNa) ध्यान (dhyAna) समाधि   (samAdhi) etc.

Regards

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,

I think my other post answers your question.

Regards

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 4:46 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhans...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste Chandramouli ji.

What is the difference between akhanDAkArA-vritti (of BhAmatI and VivaraNa) and nirvikalpaka samAdhi (of Patanjali Maharshi)?

Regards.

Sudhanshu Shekhar.

On Fri, 2 Feb, 2024, 4:40 pm H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l, <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

Namaste.

I have not come across anywhere in Bhamati School or VivaraNa School that
Nirvikalpa Samadhi of the type advocated by Sri Patanjali Maharshi is
mandatory, or even recommended, for Realization as advanced by the Advaitic
School. If anyone has come across such declarations, please provide the
references.

Regards

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 4:17 PM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <
adva...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Can you summarize what exactly you finally understand what is involved in
> Self Realization and is samadhi - required for it, etc.
>
>
>
> praNAms Sri Sada prabhuji
>
> Hare Krishna
>
>
>
> I reckon these two observations from Dennis prabhuji’s article would
> suffice to understand his perspective on samAdhi.  And being a follower of
> Sri paramArthAnandaji I hope you too would agree with him.
>
>
>
> //quote//
>
>  whereas what I would call ‘traditional’ Advaitins believe that Shankara’s
> teaching was that it is self-ignorance that obscures our understanding of
> the truth and that only self-knowledge can remove it. Thus, one of the key
> issues around the topic of neo-Vedanta is that of experience versus
> knowledge.
>
>
>

> But the most convincing argument for not including *nirvikalpa samAdhi* (in

> the Patanjali sense) as part of advaita is one I heard recently from Swami
> Paramarthananda. He argues that Patanjali, having written about this in his
> yoga sutras, and being regarded as the highest authority in the yoga

> philosophy, must obviously himself have experienced *nirvikalpa samAdhi*.

> Consequently, if its result is as has been argued by the neo-Vedantins,
> then Patanjali should be the greatest Advaitin ever. And yet his philosophy
> claims that there are many Atmans and that the world is real. So one has to

> conclude that his experience of *nirvikalpa samAdhi* led him to dualism

> and not non-dualism! Swami Paramarthananda’s last word on the subject is

> that we can happily be liberated without *nirvikalpa samAdhi*!

>
>
>
> //Unquote//
>
>
>
> If I am right not only bhAmati vehemently insisted the mandatory
> experience of ‘yOga school type samAdhi’ even in vivaraNa school too this
> non-dual practical experience advocated. Though as per this school the
> jnana of I am brahman devoid of any duality (nishprapancha etc. ) is the
> result of shAstra vihita vedAntavAkya shravaNa.  After the vAkya jnana
> dawns  the qualified jnAni ( he is mere qualified seeker of mOksha at this
> stage) has to continue to practice both the vedAnta vAkya shravaNa and
> vAkya janita jnana over and over again and over a period of time he would
> become aparOksha jnAni and he will be considered as custodian of direct
> intuitive knowledge.  But even for this aparOksha jnAni there is prArabdha
> and avidyA lesha hence he would continue to see the duality of world when
> he is not in asaMprajnAta samAdhi.  And for him, on certain occasions he
> would get the practical and ‘literal’ experience of Atmaikatvam.
>
>
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>
> bhaskar
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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[dwa...@advaita.org.uk]

Dear Sada,

 

Apologies. As usual, I am in the process of writing and not wishing to join in any discussion. But I always keep an eye out on Advaitin in case there is something relevant. Knowing that I have written about samAdhi in the past, I dug out the references to throw them in for anyone wishing to read them.

 

Very briefly, my view (and Ṥaṅkara’s, as I understand it) is that Self-realization ONLY comes from Self-knowledge. SamAdhi is not a pramANa – it is an experience. Accordingly, samAdhi cannot give rise to enlightenment – simple as that.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/1806846236.2058473.1706793249672%40mail.yahoo.com.

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,

Reg  //  What is the difference between akhanDAkArA-vritti (of BhAmatI and VivaraNa) and nirvikalpaka samAdhi (of Patanjali Maharshi)? //,

nirvikalpaka samAdhi (of Patanjali Maharshi)  is cessation of all vrittis of the mind in that state. akhanDAkArA-vritti of Advaita Siddhanta is the अहम् ब्रह्मास्मि (aham brahmAsmi) vritti which is originated automatically, without any further effort, following the shabda vritti, when the sAdhaka hears any of the MahAvAkyAs from the Guru at the time of fructification of the sAdhana. It is admitted in Advaita SiddhAnta that such a vritti can pervade अवच्छिन्न ब्रह्मन् (avachChinna brahman ), Brahman  veiled by ajnAna. The vritti replicates the veiled Brahman. The Chaitanya in that vritti destroys the veil of ajnAna in that replication. That jnAna is termed Realization.

Regards

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Sudhanshu Ji,

In Advaita SiddhAnta, NS is another term for Brahman/Atman/TurIya etc. They are synonymous terms.

Regards

[Venkatraghavan S]

Dear Sadaji,

About a year and a half ago (Sep 2022), I had written an email with some quotations based on a reading of the Jivan Mukti Viveka, which may be of interest.

Pasting it here after fixing some minor typos. I think it addresses some of the questions you have raised.

Namaste,

I spent the last few days reading the Jivanmuktiviveka fully so that I can understand Swami Vidyaranya's position with respect to the necessity of samAdhi as a fundamental requirement for advaita tattva jnAna. 

First of all, this thread has proven to be a true blessing, because this has been the push for me to study the text. I can say that Jivanmuktiviveka is truly an invaluable / indispensable primer to any student of vedAnta, containing a lot of practical tips and pointers which are very helpful in one's sAdhana. I wish I had studied it earlier, but better late than never.

I have only read the text in its original in Sanskrit, because I didn't want to allow the possibility of translations mischaracterising the true intent of AchArya.

First of all, my view is that the work is completely in sync with the prasthAna traya bhAShya. There is certainly information contained in here which is not there in the prasthAnatrayabhAShya, and vice versa, but in my view, there is no instance of contradiction between the views of vidyAraNya svAminah and Sankara bhagavatpAda.

Secondly, I didn't find a basis to conclude that the practice of samAdhi was a necessity for the rise of tattvajnAna. On the contrary, I found several passages where tattvajnAna was said to be the basis for further sAdhana for the attainment of jIvanmukti. However, yoga does play an important role in jIvanmukti. 

Some examples from the text are below. Page numbers below refer to the electronic page numbers in the pdf provided earlier in the thread by Sundar Rajan ji. There may be some typos in the Sanskrit text - I had to type it out, and sometimes my phone tends to autocorrect, thinking it is Hindi.

Page 20: सम्यगनुष्ठितैः श्रवणमनननिदिध्यासनैः परं तत्त्वं विदितवद्भिः संपाद्यमानो विद्वत्संन्यासः 

vidvatsannyAsa is to be taken up by those who have attained the supreme truth by means of shravaNa manana nididhyAsana undertaken properly.

Page 23:   वेदनस्यैव विविदिषासंन्यासफलत्वात्

The result of vividiShA sannyAsa is knowledge alone.

Page 24: यथा विविदिषासंन्यासिना तत्त्वज्ञानाय श्रवणादीनि संपादनीयानि, तथा विद्वत्संन्यासिनापि जीवन्मुक्तये मनोनाशवासनाक्षयौ संपादनीयौ ।

Just like for the purpose of gaining tattvajnAna through vividiShA sannyAsa, one must achieve shravaNa manana nididhyAsana, in the same way, for the purpose of gaining jIvanmukti through vidvat sannyAsa, one must achieve manonAsha and vAsanAkshaya.

From the above, it is clear that  vidyAraNya svAminah holds that tattvajnAna is through shravaNa manana nididhyAsana, whereas jIvanmukti requires the achievement of manonAsha and vAsanAkshaya.

What is this manonAsha and vAsanAkshaya?

manonAsha - Page 90 - तस्य (मनस्य) नाशो नाम‌ वृत्तिरूपपरिणामं परित्यज्य निरुद्धत्वाकारेण परिणामः

manonAsha means the renunciation of the modification of the mind into vRtti-s and to take on the modification of the form of nirodha, cessation.

Page 91 पूर्वापरपरामर्शान्तरेण सहसोत्पद्यमानस्य क्रोधादिवृत्तिविशेषस्य हेतुश्चित्तगतः संस्कारो वासना पूर्वापूर्वाभ्यासेन चित्ते वास्यमानत्वात् 

The cause of different types of vRttis in the mind, such as anger etc, which arise automatically without any consideration of what has happened before or after, are latent impressions called vAsana, called so because they reside (vAsyamAnah) in the mind due to prior occurrences (of that type of vRttis).

vAsanAkshaya - तस्याश्च वासनायाः क्षयो नाम विवेकजन्यायां शान्तिदान्त्यादिशुद्धवासनायां दृढायां सत्यपि बाह्यनिमित्ते क्रोधाद्यनुत्पत्तिः ।

The destruction of that latent impression means the prevention of anger etc even when there are external factors to cause it, as a result of strong favourable latent impression such as calmness, control etc that are born from discrimination.

Page 95 - तत्त्वज्ञानस्य श्रवणादिकं साधनम्, मनोनाशस्य योगः, वासनाक्षयस्य प्रतिकूलवासनोत्पादनमिति ।

The means to tattvajnAna is shravaNa etc, the means to manonAsha is yoga, and the means to vAsanakshaya is the rise of opposing vAsana-s.

The text goes on to say each of tattvajnAna, manonAsha and vAsanAkshaya are mutually reinforcing. He takes each pair and proves how they mutually reinforce each other. Therefore, he says that efforts to attain all three must be conducted simultaneously.

This raises a question - if vividiShA sannyAsa is to be first taken up for tattvajnAna and then one ought to take vidvatsannyAsa for jIvanmukti, how is it being now said that one should seek tattvajnAna, manonAsha and vAsanAkshaya simultaneously? The reply given is

Page 97 

नायं दोषः, प्रधानोपसर्जनभावेन व्यवस्थोपपत्तेः - विविदिषासंन्यासिनस्तत्त्वज्ञानं प्रधानम्, मनोनाशवासनाक्षयावोपसर्जनीभूतौ, विद्वत्संन्यासिनस्तु तद्वैपरीत्यम्

This is not a defect - because this arrangement is tenable on the basis of primary and supporting aim. For vividiShA sannyAsis, tattvajnAna is the primary aim, manonAsha and vAsanAkshaya are supporting aims, whereas for vidvatsannyAsis it is the opposite.

Page 104 - तदेवं जीवन्मुक्तिं प्रति वासनाक्षयमनोनाशयोः साक्षात्साधनत्वात्प्राधान्यम् । तत्त्वज्ञानं तूभयोत्पादनेन व्यवहितवादुपसर्जनम् ।

vAsanAkshaya and manonAsha being the direct means to jIvanmunti, they are the primary aim. tattvajnAna though, being a necessity for the achievement of both (vAsanAkshaya and manonAsha), is said to be secondary because it is not a direct means for jIvanmukti.

Thus, contrary to the view that manonAsha as manifesting in samAdhi being a necessary precondition for tattvajnAna, tattvajnAna is said to be the necessary for the achievement of manonAsha.

Page 120 - विद्याधिकारी द्विविधः,‌‌कृतोपास्तिरकृतोपास्तिश्चेति । तत्रोपास्यसाक्षात्कारपर्यन्तमुपास्तिं कृत्वा यदि ज्ञाने प्रवर्तेत, तदा वासनाक्षयमनोनाशयोर्दृढतर‌त्वेन ज्ञानादूर्ध्वं विद्वत्संन्यासजीवन्मुक्ती स्वत एव सिध्यतः । तादृश एव‌ शास्त्राभिमतो मुख्यो विद्याधिकारी। ततस्तं प्रति शास्त्रेषु सहोपन्यासात् स्वरूपेण विविक्तावपि विद्वत्संन्यासविविदिषासंन्यासौ संकीर्णाविव प्रतिभासेते । 

There are two kinds of candidates for knowledge. Those who have performed upAsana and those who have not. When a candidate has performed upAsana to such an extent that he has had a direct vision of the object of his upAsana (the upAsya devatA darshana) attempts to gain jnAna, as manonAsha and vAsanakshaya are firmly established, upon the rise of knowledge, vidvat sannyAsa and jIvanmukti are automatically obtained. It is such a candidate that shAstra has in mind as the main candidate for knowledge. As the shAstra addresses such a candidate, vividiShA and vidvat sannyAsa, despite being different, are spoken of together in the same place, and it may appear, as a result, that they are one and the same.

He continues, and this is quite funny, because he makes a comment on the type of candidates for jnAna during his time, which could apply to today's times too (if he was saying that about people then, what would he say of us all?) -

इदानींतनास्तु प्रायेणाकृतोपास्तय एवौत्सुक्यमात्रात्सहसा विद्यायां प्रवर्तन्ते । वासनाक्षयमनोनाशौ च तात्कालिकौ संपादयन्ति । तावता श्रवणमनननिदिध्यासनानि निष्पाद्यन्ते । तैश्चदृढाभ्यास्तैरज्ञानसंशयविपर्ययनिरासात् तत्त्वज्ञानं सम्यगुदेति । उदितस्य ज्ञानस्य‌ बाधकप्रमाणाभावान्निवृत्ताया अविद्यायाः पुनरुत्पत्तिकारणाभावाच्च‌ नास्ति तस्य शैथिल्यम् । वासनाक्षयमनोनाशौ तु दृढाभ्यासाभावात् भोगप्रदेन प्रारब्धेन तदा तदाबाध्यमानत्वाच्च सवातप्रदेशदीपवत्सहसा निवर्तेते ।... तस्मादिदानीन्तनानाम् विद्वत्संन्यासिनाम् ज्ञानस्यानुवृत्तिमात्रम् । वासनाक्षयमनोनाशौ तु प्रयत्न‌सिद्धाविति स्थितम् ।

However, the candidates these days, not having performed upAsana beforehand, seek knowledge merely out of curiosity. They somehow obtain a (basic) level of vasanAkshaya and manonAsha for the time being. With that much they undertake shravaNa, manana, nididhyAsana. Having performed these well, as ignorance, doubt and wrong knowledge are overcome, valid knowledge rises. As there is no cognition that contradicts the arisen knowledge, there being no reason for the subsequent rise of ignorance, there is no wavering in the knowledge. However, in the absence of the rigorous practice of vAsanAkshaya and manonAsha, they are quelled in the face of experiences arising due to prArabdha, and like a lamp located in a windy place, they are extinguished. Therefore, the reinvocation of knowledge is necessary for vidvat sannyAsi-s of current times. vAsanAkshaya and manonAsha however must be attained with practice.

Very interesting passage above, establishing that jnAna is a result of shravaNAdi sAdhana in the presence of a certain level of vAsanAkshaya / manonAsha even if temporary and easily extinguished. Because they are extinguished, they both are to be acquired in right earnest once again during vidvat sannyAsa, ie after the rise of jnAna.

How should manonAsha be attained? He says:

Page 199 (मनस्य) क्रमनिग्रहः एव योग्यः । क्रमनिग्रहे अध्यात्मविद्याप्राप्त्यादय एवोपायाः । सा च विद्या दृश्यमिथ्यात्वं दृग्वस्तुनः स्वप्रकाशत्वं च बोधयति । तथा च सत्येतन्मनः स्वगोचरेषु विषयेषु प्रयोजनाभावं दृग्वस्तुन्यगोचरत्वं च बुद्ध्वा निरिन्धनाग्निवत्स्वयमेवोपशाम्यति ।

The step by step control of the mind is alone appropriate. The means for the stepwise control of the mind is self knowledge etc. That knowledge reveals that the objective world is mithyA and the witness is self-effulgent. That being the case, knowing that there is no benefit from this mind going towards objects, and there being no possibility for the mind to objectify the witness, the mind automatically extinguishes itself, like fire in the absence of fuel.

Thus - AtmajnAna is the means for manonAsha.

Page 200 यस्तु बोधितमपि तत्त्वं न समयग्बुध्यते, यश्च विस्मरति, तयोरुभयोः साधुसंगम एवोपायः । साधवो हि पुनः पुनः बोधयन्ति, स्मारयन्ति च । यस्तुविद्यामदादिदुर्वासनया पीड्यमानो न साधूननुवर्तितुमुत्सहते तस्य पूर्वोक्तविवेकेन वासनापरित्याग उपायः ।  वासनानां प्राबल्येन त्यक्तुमशक्यत्वे प्राणस्पन्दनिरोधनमुपायः ।

Those who despite being taught, either fail to understand this truth, or forget it -  in either case, the only solution is to seek the refuge of sages, for it is sages who repeatedly teach and remind one of the truth. However, in the case of those who suffer from pride associated with learning, and are not disposed to seek the company of sages, their means (for manonAsha) is renouncing vAsana-s with the help of the aforesaid viveka. If vAsanas are very strong and cannot be given up, the means is control over the movement of the breath.

Thus, depending on the nature of the candidate, various means are postulated for manonAsha and attenuation of vAsana-s. samAdhi is one such path. As he says: 

Page 219 तदेवमध्यात्मविद्यासाधुसंगमवासनाक्षयप्राणनिरोधाश्चित्तनाशोपाया दर्शिताः । अथ तदुपायभूतं समाधिं वक्ष्यामः ।

In this manner, various means for chittanAsha, being self knowledge, company of sages, attenuation of vAsanas, breath control, were shown. Now (another) means being samAdhi will be described.

So what is the purpose of samAdhi? He says:

Page 255 आत्मदर्शनस्य स्वतःसिद्धत्वेऽप्यनात्मदर्शनवारणाय निरोधाभ्यासः।

Even though self perception is self accomplished, the practice of control is undertaken for the purpose of avoiding thoughts of the non-self.

Page 264 तस्मात्तत्त्वविदोऽपि क्लेशक्षयायास्त्येवासंप्रज्ञातसमाध्यपेक्षा ।

Therefore, even for the knower of truth, there is a requirement for asamprajnAta samAdhi for the purpose of destroying mental afflictions.

Page 288 ननु प्रमाणोत्पन्नस्य तत्त्वज्ञानस्य को नाम बाधप्रसंगः येन रक्षा अपेक्ष्यत इति चेदुच्यते - चित्तविश्रान्त्यभावे संशयविपर्ययौ प्रसज्येयाताम् ।

If it is said - how can there be possibility of invalidation of the right knowledge born from a valid pramANa, for one to argue that such a knowledge must be protected? 

The reply is - if the mind is not tranquil, doubts and incorrect cognitions may arise.

vidyAraNya svAminah follows this (pages 288-290) with a beautiful anecdote involving Shuka and Janaka, wherein, Shuka despite being born a jnAni, and despite being taught the truth once again by his father, Vedavyasa, was doubtful if the knowledge he possessed was the ultimate knowledge and if anything else was needed.  He goes to King Janaka who tells him that there is nothing else needed to be done. The knowledge he possesses is complete. Reassured thus, Shuka immediately becomes tranquil and enters nirvikalpa samAdhi for many years.

Page 291 तस्माद्विदितेऽपि तत्त्वे विश्रान्तिरहितस्य‌ शुकराघवयोरिव संशय उत्पद्यते । स च अज्ञानमिव मोक्षस्य प्रतिबन्धकः ।

vidyAraNya svAminah concludes by saying - therefore, despite knowing the truth, Shuka and Rama, who were not tranquil, had doubts. Those doubts, like ignorance, are obstacles to liberation.

This ultimately is the purpose of yoga - prior to knowledge, to prepare the mind for knowledge, and after the rise of knowledge, to preserve it.

In summary, my reading of the text has convinced me of a few things

1) JMV is totally in line with the bhAShya and the teachings of the samanvayAdhikaraNa. I don't agree with the view that it is contrary to the teaching of Shankara .

2) The means to knowledge is very clear - shravaNa, manana, nididhyAsana.

3) The means to jIvanmukti is vAsanAkshaya and manonAsha.

4) yoga serves as one of the means of manonAsha. It plays a subsidiary role, as a supporting cause, for the rise of jnAna.

5) jnAna in turn also serves as a means for manonAsha.

6) However, I haven't found any evidence of the practice of samAdhi postulated as a mandatory means to be performed for knowledge to arise. While manonAsha and tattvajnAna are said to be mutually reinforcing, there is no invariable requirement stated for the achievement of samAdhi for the rise of jnAna.

Kind regards,

Venkatraghavan

[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

Venkatraghavanji - praNAms

Thanks for posting your analysis of Jeevanmukta viveka of Swami Vidyaaranya.

I have a simple question related to manonasha that you mentioned. 

I thought that happens only when the jeevan mukta leaves the body with the gross body merging with Virat, the mind merging with Hiranyagarbha, and intellect merging with Iswara. 

Mind and the associated chidaabhaasa are required as long as life is pulsating in the jeevanmutka.

If manonaasha involves cessation of the notion that I am the mind, it can be achieved shravana, and manana, and nidhidhyaasnaa if required. 

The word 'manonaasha' is somewhat confusing to me. I understand that Samadhi is not necessary for abiding in the knowledge and what is required is vaasanaakshaya as Goudapaada also discusses as obstacles for self-realization. 

Will be happy if you can clarify.

Hari Om!

Sadananda 

[dwa...@advaita.org.uk]

Dear Sada,

 

Apologies for interruption again! I wrote an article on manonAsha about 12 years ago, which I included as an appendix in my book on Gaudapada’s kArikA-s. I posted it to the site at https://www.advaita-vision.org/manonasha-not-the-literal-death-of-the-mind/.

 

Best wishes,

Dennis

 

.

[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

Dennis - Thanks. I have received your previous message also that Shravana, manana and nidhidhyaasana are all needed for Self-Realization. 

Thanks for the article will go over it.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

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[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

Dennis - read the whole article. I agree with every word in the article. 

Yes, the mind gets dissolved only when the jnaani BMI dies - the body merges with Virat and mind merges with Hiranyagarba and the intellect merges with Iswara. That is their dissolution. For ajnaani, the mind travels to different lokas to exhaust the next set of powerful vaasanas. 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

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[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Sadaji,

Before I address these questions, I want to clarify in what sense Swami Vidyaranya uses the terms jIvanmukti and videhamukti.

According to him, videhamukti is not the mukti that takes place at the end of the jnAni's life - rather it is a mukti that is contemporaneous with the rise of jnAna.

In the JMV he says:

सेयं विदेहमुक्तिर्ज्ञानोत्पत्तिसमकालीना ज्ञेया, ब्रह्मण्यविद्यारोपितानामेतेषां बन्धानां विद्यया विनाशे सति पुनरुत्पत्त्यसंभवादननुभवाच्च। तदेतद्विद्यया समकालीना मुक्तिः भाष्यकारः समन्वयसूत्रे प्रपंचयामासः (ब्र सू १.१.४), "तदधिगम उत्तरपूर्वाघयोरश्लेशविनाशौ तद्व्यपदेशात्" (ब्र सू ४.१.१३) ,‌ इत्यत्र च।

This videhamukti must be understood to occur contemporaneous with the rise of jnAna, because when these bonds, which are sumperimposed on Brahman due to ignorance, are destroyed by knowledge, their reoccurrence is impossible, and goes against experience too. It is this liberation contemporaneous with knowledge, that the bhAShyakAra referred to in the commentary to the samanvaya sUtra and in the sUtra "When That is known, the prior and future sins are destroyed and unattached, for that has been declared".

This raises a question - which is raised and answered thus.

ननु वर्तमानदेहपातानन्तरं विदेहमुक्तिः बहवो वर्णयन्ति?

Many hold that videhamukti only happens at the end of the current body of the jnAni. 

नायं दोषः । विवक्षावशेन मतद्वस्याविरोधात् । विदेहमुक्तिरित्यत्रत्यनेन देहशब्देन कृत्स्नं देहजातं विवक्षित्वा बहुभिर्वर्णितम् । अस्माभिस्तु भाविदेहमात्रविवक्षयोच्यते, तदनारम्भस्यैव ज्ञानसंपादनात् । अयं तु देहः पूर्वमेवारब्धः, अतो ज्ञानेनापि नास्यारम्भो वारयितुं शक्यते। एतद्देहनिवृत्तिरपि न ज्ञानफलम्,‌ अज्ञिनानामप्यारब्धकर्मक्षये तन्निवृत्तेः ।

This is not a problem, because what is meant (by the word deha) is different in the two systems. In the word videhamukti, the term 'deha' refers to the entire gamut of bodies - this is the view held by many. Whereas we hold that it only refers to future bodies, and their non-occurrence is on account of knowledge. This body, however, has already had birth, therefore its occurrence cannot be prevented even by knowledge. Nor is the cessation of this body a result of knowledge, for that occurs even for the ignorant when their prArabdha ends.

The opponent then asks

तर्हि वर्तमानलिंगदेहनिवृत्तिर्ज्ञानफलमस्तु, ज्ञानमन्तरेण तदनिवृत्तिरिति चेत् -

न, सत्यपि ज्ञाने जीवन्मुक्तेस्तन्निवृत्त्यभावात् ।

If that is the case, let the cessation of the current subtle body be the result of knowledge, because without knowledge, the cessation of that is impossible.

Swami Vidyaranya says - no, because even when knowledge has arisen, in the case of the jIvanmukta, the current subtle body does not cease.

He later refutes the theory of a final dawn of knowledge, the charamasAkshAtkAra giving rise to videhamukti. He says:

किंच क्षणिकत्वेन कालान्तरे स्वमविद्यमानं ज्ञानं कथं मुक्तिं दद्यात्? ज्ञानान्तरं चरमसाक्षात्कारलक्षणमुत्पत्सयत इति चेन्न ; साधनाभावात् । प्रतिबन्ध प्रारब्धनिवृत्त्यैव सह गुरुशास्त्रदेहेन्द्रियाद्यशेषजगत्प्रतिभासनिवृत्तेः किं तत्साधनं स्यात्? ... ततो भवदभिमता वर्तमानदेहराहित्यलक्षणा विदेहमुक्तिः पश्चादस्तु देहपातानन्तरम्, अस्मदभिमता तु ‌ज्ञानसमकालीनैव ।

Further, how can thought, which lasts for but a moment, and ceases to exist at a different time, give rise to liberation (videhamukti at the time of death)? If it is said that there is another thought, the final cognition of Brahman, that will arise and cause that to happen - no, because no means for its rise will exist at the time. When the obstacle of prArabdha has ceased to be, along with the appearance of the universe consisting of the guru, scripture, body and the senses, by what means will that (knowledge) arise?...Therefore, your idea of  videhamukti, ie being the absence of the current body, may perhaps occur after the fall of this body, but the videhamukti that we speak of, is coterminous with knowledge.

Thus, according to JMV

1) videhamukti means the cessation of future bodies.

2) videhamukti is coterminous with brahmajnAna .

2) manonAsha does not mean the literal destruction of the mind, for jIvanmukti occurs upon manonAsha, but the mind continues to exist for a jIvanmukta.

So what is this manonAsha that the scriptures speak of, where the mind continues to exist? Swami Vidyaranya quotes from the laghuyogavAshiShTha to explain:

न च मनोनाशेन विदेहमुक्तिरेव न तु जीवन्मुक्तिरिति शंकनीयम्  प्रश्नोत्तराभ्याम् तन्निर्णयात् - 

One cannot allege that the destruction of the mind must lead to videhamukti alone, and not jIvanmukti, for the following questions and answers explain what is meant. (This was your actual question, Sadaji).

श्रीरामः - 

विवेकाभ्युदयाच्चित्तस्वरूपेऽन्तर्हिते मुने।

मैत्र्यादयो गुणाः कुत्र जायन्ते योगिनां वद॥

Lord Rama - oh sage, please tell me where do good qualities such as friendliness etc arise in, when the minds of yogis disappear with the rise of discrimination?

वसिष्ठः -

द्विविधाः चित्तनाशोऽस्ति सरूपोऽरूप एव च।

जीवन्मुक्तौ सरूपः स्यादरूपोऽदेहमुक्तिगः॥

VasiShTha - There are two types of destruction of mind, the destruction with form remaining and formless destruction. In jIvanmukti, the destruction is with form, whereas it is without form in the bodiless mukti.

प्राकृतं गुणसंभारं ममेति बहुमन्यते।

सुखदुःखाद्यवष्टभ्य विद्यमानं मनो विदुः॥

The mind thinks of the qualities of the nature as 'mine' - hence, the wise ones consider being possessed of pleasure and pain to be the existence of the mind.

चेतसः कथिता सत्ता‌ मया रघुकुलोद्वह।

अस्य नाशमिदानीं त्वं श्रुणु प्रश्नविदां वर॥

The existence of the mind has been explained by me, o scion of Raghu clan! Now, listen to what its destruction means, o best amongst the enquirers.

सुखदुःखदशा धीरं साम्यान्न प्रोद्धरन्ति यम्।

निःश्वासा इव शैलेन्द्रं तस्य चित्तं मृतं विदुः॥

The wise call the mind of the intelligent one - which is unmoved in pleasure or pain from its state of equanimity like the Himalayas, which is unmoved by the flow of breath - as dead.

आपत्कार्पण्यमुत्साहो मदो मान्द्यं महोत्सवः।

यं नयन्ति न वैरूप्यं तस्य नष्टं मनो विदुः॥

The wise know that the one whose mind stays unchanged when faced with adversity, pitiful circumstances, zeal, pride, dullness or a great festival, his mind is considered destroyed.

चित्तमाशानिधानं हि यदा नश्यति राघव।

मैत्र्यादिभिर्गुणैर्युक्तं तदा सत्त्वमुदेत्यलम्॥

When the mind which is the house of desires is destroyed, Oh Raghava, the sattva endowed with good qualities such as friendliness etc., arises.

भूयोजन्मविनिर्मुक्तं जीवन्मुक्तस्य तन्मनः।

सरूपोऽसौ मनोनाशो जीवन्मुक्तस्य विद्यते ॥

The jIvanmukta's mind which is free from birth, the mind that undergoes death with form, is the jIvanmukta's.

अरूपस्तु मनोनाशो यो मयोक्तो रघूद्वह।

विदेहमुक्तावेवासौ विद्यते निष्कलात्मकः॥

The formless death of the mind which was spoken of by me oh Raghava, is for the videhamukta only, where no part of the mind remains.

समग्राग्र्यगुणाधारमपि सत्त्वं प्रलीयते ।

विदेहमुक्तावमले पदे पावने ॥ 

The mind as the sattva, the locus of all auspicious qualities, completely dissolves in the holy state of videhamukti.

Thus the manonAsha which is the means to jIvanmukti, is not the literal death of the mind, rather it is the immovability of the mind in the face of pleasure and pain.

Kind regards,

Venkatraghavan

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Venkat Ji,

Is there not a contradiction between the following  statements  as between  laghuyogavAshiShTha and JMV ?

As per laghuyogavAshiShTha cited by you in connection with manonAsha,  //  The formless death of the mind which was spoken of by me oh Raghava, is for the videhamukta only, where no part of the mind remains //. Also  // In jIvanmukti, the destruction is with form, whereas it is without form in the bodiless mukti //.

And

As per JMV cited by you in connection with videhamukti, //  videhamukti is not the mukti that takes place at the end of the jnAni's life - rather it is a mukti that is contemporaneous with the rise of jnAna //.

Regards

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Chandramouli ji,

That is what I thought too at first, but then I went back and looked at how Swami Vidyaranya answered the original question. He says this:

विवक्षावशेन मतद्वस्याविरोधात् । विदेहमुक्तिरित्यत्रत्यनेन देहशब्देन कृत्स्नं देहजातं विवक्षित्वा बहुभिर्वर्णितम् । अस्माभिस्तु भाविदेहमात्रविवक्षयोच्यते, तदनारम्भस्यैव ज्ञानसंपादनात् । 

There is no contradiction in the two views, because what is intended by the word videhamukti is different. 

When the laghuyogavAshiShTha refers to videhamukti it is referring to the cessation of the current AND future bodies, which can only happen when the current body has also fallen.

When the JMV-kAra is referring to videhamukti, he is talking about only the cessation of future bodies which happens when jnAna arises, i.e. when the individual becomes a jnAni (and is alive!) he has become a videhamukta already, in JMV's conception. 

Kind regards,

Venkatraghavan

[Praveen R. Bhat]

Namaste Venkatji,

Thanks for reposting the excellent summary of JMV, the text for a sAdhaka to verily live by!

Kind rgds,
--Praveen R. Bhat
/* येनेदं सर्वं विजानाति, तं केन विजानीयात्। Through what should one know That, owing to which all this is known! [Br.Up. 4.5.15] */

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Praveen ji

Completely agree! It is such a practical book, I have found it immensely helpful in my personal sAdhana.

Kind regards,

Venkatraghavan

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[Kuntimaddi Sadananda]

Venkatraghavanji - PraNAms

Looks like you have done a lot of research.

Your last statement - 

'Thus the manonAsha which is the means to jIvanmukti, is not the literal death of the mind, rather it is the immovability of the mind in the face of pleasure and pain.'

Summarizes its essence and makes a lot of sense to me. Ramana Maharshi's statement - maanasantukim maargane krute, naiva maanasam, marga aarjavat - When enquired into what is mind, there is no more mind and that is the direct path - makes some sense - even though many of his disciples misinterpret the statement. 

Shata koti vandanaalu.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste Sadanandaji,

Yes, that is what the Sankhya says. There is the saying: "There is no greater knowledge than Sankhya". Knowledge of Sankhya is a must for the Advaitins, and that is why Gaudaoadacharya wrote a commentary on Sankhya.

Regards,

Sunil KB

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