Halyard Math question

[Patrick Nelson]

So I've got two new reef points in my Wave sail thanks to JT. I was going to get a new halyard made with two more stopper pins in a longer wire section spliced to line. As far as position of new stopper lines - is it as simple as measuring the distance from the original downhaul grommet to the first reef downhaul strap and that would be the distance on the new halyard from the original stopper pin to the first reef stopper pin? and then so on for the second reef? Seems right to me, but maths...

Or should I do a completely different setup of some sort?

Jahn helped with the problem of the boltrope at the sail head popping out of the comptimp mast track which is made of plastic and can be pulled out when reefed because not as much halyard tension into the mast. We ran dyneema up to the halyard wire thimble and then around the mast you can cinch down to tighten the head of the sail into the mast. Upon release it comes down around all the standing rigging in a large loop so you can still raise and tower with the line. Does the trick.

Patrick

[Jahn Tihansky]

Patrick, 

Your methodology should work.  To make yourself feel better, tip the boat over and hoist the sail with the tack set at each reef then mark the halyard where it sits at the ball catch at the masthead. Make sure you account for luff stretch by tightening the halyard adequately. Call me with any questions. 

JT

Jahn Shaffer Tihansky

Professional Mariner, Sailing Coach & Adventurer

website: jahntihansky.com

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[Vladimir Eremeev]

Hi, Patrick. Yes, it is just a matter of measuring distance between grummets and making sure that distance between stopper balls matches. 

I want so see your loop setup for keeping head of the sail in.  Wouldn’t  just replacing top 3 inches of bolt rope with a hard slider work too? 

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On May 16, 2026, at 9:23 AM, Jahn Tihansky <jahn.t...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Patrick Nelson]

I remember looking into a sail slug and I was uncertain because there was some disagreement on the forums as to whether the slug size needed would both stay in place in the flexible-ish track and still go up and down easily and transition from the aluminum to comp tip section. None of these people had actually done it themselves, though. Might be worth re-investigating. Next time I do the head tensioning line I'll take a picture. It does adds some steps to the process and has an extra line coming down the mast to be cleated off. There might be some risk of it fouling, but it seems like if you just let the whole thing go free it won't catch on anything when bringing the sail down. 

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[gordon pease]

Maybe swap the mast to an old hobie 14 mast that is a single piece.  Removing the comp tip issue.  

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[John Baker]

I have an extra Acat mast. 

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On May 16, 2026, at 12:54 PM, gordon pease <gordon...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Baker]

Instead of reducing sail area, have you considered increasing sail area?

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On May 16, 2026, at 1:18 PM, 'John Baker' via West River Catamaran Racing Association <WR...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I have an extra Acat mast. 

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[Patrick Nelson]

Gordon,

I like your idea, however I'm already absurdly over budget. I also have feelings about emasculating what might otherwise be a fully functional h14. I could probably get over it though. 

John, 

I don't love your idea. It is ridiculous. But you knew that. Sometimes I wonder if you’ve already thought up all these ridiculous ideas and keep them in a Rolodex just waiting for the right prompt. Yes, I know what a Rolodex is.  

Patrick

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[Vladimir Eremeev]

Patrick,  are you going to be at the club next Tuesday? We need to talk. 

I also might get a hold of all aluminum H16 mast. The mods will be easy, just cut it down. 

I have installed reefs on boats with all aluminum and all carbon fiber masts. Never had a problem, but I see how comp tip can be a pain. 

Are you planning to use Wave? How long is the mast? 

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On May 16, 2026, at 3:56 PM, Patrick Nelson <patrick...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Patrick Nelson]

Yeah, I’ll be at the club. The mast is 20’. As Gordon mention a Hobie 14 mast will work with some mods. Yes, I am planning to use the wave. 

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[Patrick Nelson]

Actually not too bad. Local, too. 

[Patrick Nelson]

Nevermind, it wasn’t local. Do we know anyone who drives between here and Michigan? New Hobie 14 aluminum mast for 350$. 

https://sailsportmarine.com/products/hobie-14-mast?srsltid=AfmBOoq-yYSvrFpmc_6U5shlhadEGllw12ldsUVVtULPJ9mpDA8Rv-RL

[Patrick Nelson]

Vlad, 

Here's a picture. Bowline attached to halyard. The light green line encircles the shrouds and forestay and then goes back through the bowline. Raise the sail and all of that goes up with it. Once up you can pull down on the end that went through the bowline real tight using a loop to get 2:1 on a mast cleat. It hasn't fouled on me yet (so far so good. I'm going on a 3 night sail in June which will be the test), and pulls the halyard tight into the mast.   

[Vladimir Eremeev]

Patrick, it should work, I am just weary of extra lines. 

Have you tried to pull the sail out of the track? It is possible that you overthinking the problem. I always do :)  Remember, Waves came with an optional reef originally, so it is possible that the track is strong enough. I 

Also with sail this small you can use a cleat on the mast for reefs, instead of extra balls on the wire halyard.  That’s how I did on most of my boats. I used dyneema line for a halyard and used horn cleat for everything. I got rid of hook/ring lock on top of the mast altogether. 

On Nacra F17 I used double purchase to reduce a load on the top sheave, however on smaller boats I just used halyard old fashioned way, cleating it low on the mast.  You really not going to yank downhaul very hard, if it’s windy, just reef. 

Simple is always better in this race…

Best.

Vlad.

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On May 17, 2026, at 8:17 PM, Patrick Nelson <patrick...@gmail.com> wrote:



Vlad, 

Here's a picture. Bowline attached to halyard. The light green line encircles the shrouds and forestay and then goes back through the bowline. Raise the sail and all of that goes up with it. Once up you can pull down on the end that went through the bowline real tight using a loop to get 2:1 on a mast cleat. It hasn't fouled on me yet (so far so good. I'm going on a 3 night sail in June which will be the test), and pulls the halyard tight into the mast.   

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[Patrick Nelson]

Copy that about overcomplication. Yes, I can pull sail out of the track with a little bit of effort. Whether that translates to the boltrope coming out in 20-30 knots while reefed I don’t know. 

As far as the halyard, I read that cleating on the mast with no ball at top changes where the load goes on the mast. If it’s cleated at the base it causes mast compression as opposed to when hooked at the top of mast. I don't know how having a comptip factors into this. Who knows, maybe it's fine. I sailed this way last week in 20 knot gusts with no problems. Yes, the sail is pretty small, moreso when reefed, and I'm not using much downhaul or going block to block on mainsheet. If any engineer types want to chime in...   

I sailed across the bay before realizing I had a 7 inch vertical crack in the mast so I see the irony of angsting over this other stuff. Just trying to do better than that guy. 

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[Sam Carter]

Patrick,

  I spent a lot of time, a fair bit of money, and put a few engineers on the problem for the Worrell. Here is what is known:

A) Yes, mast compression is a concern, however, it is truly a concern for wing-masts that are iffy. Basically that means the current Nacra mast section used on the F18 (Infusion on up), and the AHPC/Goodall section used on their F18. The Cirrus mast section is beefier, as is the section used on The Edge F18. Oh, said Nacra wing mast is being used on the new 20. My only issue with that boat. Its OK if you don't go sailing in waves (the west river doesn't have waves).

B) A simple tail is the answer for these boats, basically a dyneema strop from the original halyard attach point. I was trying to get fancy; avoiding the horn cleat, trying to avoid a 2:1 turning point on the masthead for weight aloft reasons, and retaining the ability to unreef under-way. I suspect the answer there is a second hook on the mast (side mount). Risks there too with loading/attachment, modifying masts etc. In the end, pull more downhaul and move on....if you need the reef, you'll need it all day. 

B) When moving to more traditional masts, I don't think the compression issue is a problem. I say that as a Hobie Tiger rounded cape horn with reef points and a horn cleat. I believe your Wave mast is fine; that crack likely appeared due to water ingress/expansion, not sailing loads. Vlad's point about lowered sail area should also be noted. Any reef on a Hobie Wave is a big reduction in power, on a boat that is very underpowered to begin with. Despite what the sailing "instructor" at Sandals told me, the boat is only fun in 25kts with full hoist.

The real risk with the hobie wave are the attachments to the hulls, both beam and shroud anchors. They have pulled out, but this you know. Just keep an eye on them. 

In summary, I wouldn't go buying H14/16 masts and modifying them for your wave, unless you just love spending money. The comptip plus associated mods JT has sorted you with are fine. I might invest in more downhaul purchase...and a luff patch.

[Vladimir Eremeev]

Well, in my opinion, if you really want to have the ability to reef and strike a sail regardless of conditions, the hook/lock on top of mast needs to go. I have a few friends who tried hooks for reefs lower on the mast. Nobody was really happy. Tail from head to hook works great but isn’t fast or easy to remove or install.  I did Ultimate Florida Challenge (1200 miles) on Nacra I20 and we ended up sailed most of the way reefed because it was too hard to deal with the reefing system (we had the tail system.)

I had relatively long discussion with Beto Pandiani before his Atlantic Crossing on Eagle 20 back in the days. he already did Amazon adventure, sailing to Antarctica and most of America’s coast. He said that he just installed horn cleat and cleated halyard down at the mast base. 

I used Nacra Inter carbon section on my proa (3 times EC finisher) and and I sailed Nacra Inter 17 in EC. I just installed horn cleat below gooseneck, put strong sheave on top and run 2:1 halyard with lead ring with soft shackle at sail head. I also used dyneema halyard. It worked perfectly and I don’t see any real difference between my two Nacras F17, one at the WRCRA and another one at home outfitted for adventures.  I don’t know how newer wind section masts behave but as long as halyard returns in sail track it shouldn’t be any different. 

Anyway, as Sam noticed it isn’t really relevant to Wave discussion. Wave has pretty robust mast with huge block on top and smallish sail with minimum of controls. The only issue is comptip. Patrick, I have all aluminum H16 mast laying at friends place, you can have it if it will be used for EC purposes. Although I would just test what you have already. 

Best.

Vlad.

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On May 19, 2026, at 10:19 AM, Sam Carter <samc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Patrick,

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[Patrick Nelson]

Went for a sail today to test the reefs on the Wave, 17-24 kts or so. Left Beverly Beach with one reef in and headed towards South River. I didn't do the JT trick to tighten the head onto the mast with the line, to see how that went, more on that later. Once I got to south river I think I was getting the full brunt of the 24kts but I wasn't overpowered. Yes, it is hard to get overpowered in the underpowered Hobie Wave, everyone has made that real clear. Once again, copy that, 10-4.  I turned around and came back on a broad reach, hitting 9 kts riding a wave along Beverly Triton park. About that point I noticed the head of the sail had pulled out of the track. So that's good to know. Once closer to land I wanted to mess around with the drag anchor so I deployed it while I practiced putting in the second reef. I thought the sea anchor would cause me to float with my bows into the wind as I started to drift with the wind but it doesn't do that. With the sails up I inevitably start catching wind and with the sails completely down it puts me sideways to the wind, which is weird. It's probably due to some deficiency in my nautical knowledge.  Maybe I forgot to turn it on.  Anyway, I was close to the breakwater rocks as I was putting in the second reef and drifting toward them, and I was even closer by the time I got the reef in, so there was a little lee shore pressure in the operation. Did a short reach to test the double reef and was surprised how slow it was (there's that underpowered Wave again), then realized the sea anchor was still in the water. Oops. Pulled that in and did a super chill 5-7 kts. Yes, still slow. Brought it back into land and called it a day. Just did the main halyard on the horn cleat and had no issues. 

Patrick

  

On Sat, May 16, 2026 at 4:12 PM Vladimir Eremeev <vladimir...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Sam Carter]

Good looking setup. Super functional for a solo EC. And you actually test sailed it-you’re well ahead of the game. Now you just need to borrow a spinnaker from Baker for the other end of the spectrum. He doesn’t use the one on his A-Cat most days. Or you could go completely out of the box and use a small kiteboarding kite. Might help lift the whole boat clear of the water…

I am surprised that the sea anchor didn’t work as intended. Where did you have it tied on the boat? I think a bridle from the bows out would work best. If lashed off the front beam (strong) it may end up closer to the middle of the boat and serve as a pivot point. Of course, my experience with sea anchors is limited, but they never seem to work as intended, much like righting bags. I did realize in a downwind capsize a few weeks ago that leaving a little spinnaker in the water during the righting process, while bad for the sail, could help slow the drifting and get the bows round into the wind.

[Vladimir Eremeev]

Without a bridle from bows beach cats ride sideways on an anchor or sea anchor, from my experience. Also from my experience there is nothing wrong with riding sideways :) 

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On May 31, 2026, at 8:48 AM, Sam Carter <samc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good looking setup. Super functional for a solo EC. And you actually test sailed it-you’re well ahead of the game. Now you just need to borrow a spinnaker from Baker for the other end of the spectrum. He doesn’t use the one on his A-Cat most days. Or you could go completely out of the box and use a small kiteboarding kite. Might help lift the whole boat clear of the water…

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[Patrick Nelson]

I tied it to front cross beam and then I put it through the front spreader bar that  attaches from the two bow attachment points for the bridle wires. It’s the same slot my furler is attached to.  Yeah, I went sideways. The point of the drag sock was so I could easily reef so putting me sideways sorta defeated the purpose. Who knows. I’ll try it again. 

Honestly I’m decent on the downwind as far as frankenboating a spin setup. Where I am struggling a little is upwind with big chop. I have to sit back to keep the front crossbeam from going underwater. Maybe reef but keep the jib up? Bear away to stay moving? Steer? The Wave doesn’t exactly cut through the waves.  

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[Sam Carter]

Upwind: I think the jib will only make the front crossbeam dig in more, but you could try it. Generally they help improve the flow over the main which is good in chop. On the big tri (Corsair 37 carbon) upwind for 3 days in the mac race last year we had time to play with many things, and while the mantra was to keep the bow up (point until we were nearly pinching), this only worked when we had the olympian on the helm and the water was relatively flat. In the dark and chop I put the bow down 5-10deg and net VMG appeared to be the same (post race analysis), with the boat much happier in the deeper, faster groove. In general that approach works with faster mulithulls that have foils. I don't know where the limit is with the wave, but I suspect you'll be doing a ton of steering through the waves, and doing what you can to keep the main sheeted tight to point. I might do a little sanding on the rudders (thin the trailing edge, make sure the leading edge is fair and round) for better aero shape, which will make steering easier and help you go upwind a bit better. 

[Sam Carter]

Oh, the hobie bob at the top of the mast: many thoughts out there on its pluses and minuses. I respect keeping it for the adventure sailing-it might help to have it on a swivel. It would also be worth removing and doing a test sail without it. The weight up at the top of the rig on the short boat is pretty brutal in chop. 

[Vladimir Eremeev]

I chucked sea anchor pretty early in my EC history. I carried it first three. But then I found it very much useless. 

Your experience may differ.

To reef a catamaran I just park it - mainsheet is all the way out. Rudders are hard over. The boat drifts sideways with bows pointing slightly upwind. 

Yes, it is true that the reef clew will be hanging just outside of the boat to leeward. However it is reachable and I just hook it up with a hook I use on reef line. After it hooked up, rest is easy, you can roll the sail while slowly fore-reaching.

Sometimes it is easier to lower the sail below the reef, hook up the clew, raise the sail back. 

I wouldn’t remove Hobie Bob - Wave will stay upside down if flipped. Going upwind on 13 ft boat in chop will be pain regardless of your skills. There is no magic. Foot off, go for power. If it makes your life easier - I finished 5 or 6 challenges on inflatable 15 ft catamarans. These boats will bounce up like volleyball in waves.  Everglades Challenge is about how much suffering you can withstand ~ /)~

Vlad. 

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On May 31, 2026, at 1:15 PM, Sam Carter <samc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Oh, the hobie bob at the top of the mast: many thoughts out there on its pluses and minuses. I respect keeping it for the adventure sailing-it might help to have it on a swivel. It would also be worth removing and doing a test sail without it. The weight up at the top of the rig on the short boat is pretty brutal in chop. 

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[Patrick Nelson]

Suffering is my maiden name. 

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