Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

I am sorry, please ignore my 3 previous emails because they were not clear.

I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding of Sāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna,  Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya (or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.

Sehgal (6 August 2017)

The following view is based on my understanding of (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya.

[1] The Field of Awareness, as arising out of the consciousness, is not compared with the one as that of an electric charge or the magnetic field. The electric and magnetic fields are the emergent/derived fields and they act on each point in the space. In other words, the electric field and magnetic field remain present in each point of space/time. However, the Field of Awareness had never emerged out of any other thing thru some mechanism. It always existed as such, whether before or after the creation or during the period universe remains in the manifested stage. Further, it is not that the field of the Awareness remains present in each point of space/time but it is the space and time which emerges out from the Field of Awareness and each and every point of space/time exist in that Field. So any comparison of the field of awareness with those of physical fields like that of electric or magnetic one is ill conceived and arguments as applicable to the physical electric/magnetic fields are not applicable to the Field of Awareness. I had used the term Field of Awareness to make it more understandable on the lines of the physical fields.

The closest comparison of the Field of Awareness, which comes to my mind, is that of the space. The primary function of the space is to provide a base, a medium for the existence and operation (motion) to the distinct physical objects. When space fulfills these two functions viz. providing base and medium for the motion, space do no interact with the physical objects since these functions are always self-evident in space. Similarly, awareness is always self-evident, self-manifested in the consciousness and it need not interact with the final signal of thought/experiences.

I think that you are extending the logic of the mechanism of the interaction between two physical entities to the consciousness and awareness but forgetting that awareness is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute/ nature of the consciousness on the same pattern providing the basis for existence and medium for motion is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute/nature of space.

 

[2] Again by comparing the field of awareness with the physical field like a quantum field, you are arriving at wrong inferences/conclusion. The Field of the Awareness, unlike some physical quantum field, is not a quantum field. The cosmic consciousness and Field of Awareness as fundamentally innate with it is an infinite, indivisible, a Holistic One and it is not located in space/time, but it is space/time, which emerges out such Field of Awareness. It is not that each and every point of the Field of Awareness (in fact, there are no points/parts in this field due to it being holistic infinite one) is located in each and every point of space/time BUT it is the each and every point of the space/time which is located in the infinite holistic Field of Awareness. Therefore, any attempt to understand the cosmic consciousness or Field of Awareness from the conventional logic as applicable to the mechanism as applicable to the physical entities is bound to lead to wrong inferences/conclusions.

 

[3]  It is separable from the ontological existential point of view, remain present in Prakriti and all its derivatives but for having awareness of the Prakriti, it need not interact with Prakriti due to awareness being its fundamental and innate nature, as elaborated in the foregoing Paragraphs. Again, the analogy of the space and physical objects will help you to understand this point of view. Space remains present in all the physical objects but it is separable from the physical objects and for its fundamental functions viz providing base for the existence of the physical objects and medium for their operation (motion), it need not interact with the physical objects. On the same pattern, consciousness( having fundamental awareness) always remain present in Prakriti and its derivatives and yet it is separate from Prakriti and for having awareness of Prakriti and its derivatives, it need not interact with the Prakriti and its derivatives ( due to awareness being a fundamental and innate nature/attribute of the consciousness). Actually, it is wrong to state that consciousness/awareness remain present in Prakriti or its derivatives. It is the Prakriti and its derivatives, which reside/exist in the consciousness or Field of Awareness. Please try to come out from the logic of physicality as applicable to the physical systems. Please try to understand from the analogy of space and physical objects as to how Prakriti and its entire derivatives can exist in Consciousness/Field of Awareness yet they can be separate and for the consciousness to be aware of the Prakriti, it need not interact with it. That is why I send copies of my messages to other people also (6 as indicated above) but no one has commented. I thought they will also provide their views but so far, none has done so. I request you to send our debate/conversation to other people also.

 

[4] I am not denying the physiological changes/process undergoing in the eyes/body/brain during darkness and sleep/dreams. What I had been emphasizing and somehow you are not directly responding that even though our consciousness can have the awareness of the darkness but no actual physical interaction takes place between darkness and our brain and mind, leave alone the consciousness. I had provided this analogy of the awareness of darkness in the absence of any actual interaction to highlight the point that consciousness/ awareness can have the awareness of the finally processed signal of thoughts/experiences without any interaction with these signals.

If you still subscribe to the view that interaction is necessary for the awareness of the consciousness, please address this very issue as to how the darkness is awarized by the consciousness and yet no interaction take place even between the darkness and brain/body. Here I am speaking of the direct interaction between the darkness and the brain/body and mind and NOT of any physiological changes/process in the brain. Those processes/changes occur otherwise also in the brain in the absence of the darkness.

Vimal

Can space exist by itself without matter or energy around? As per  Sten Odenwald, “No. Experiments continue to show that there is no 'space' that stands apart from space-time itself...no arena in which matter, energy and gravity operate which is not affected by matter, energy and gravity. General relativity tells us that what we call space is just another feature of the gravitational field of the universe, so space and space-time can and do not exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field. This is not speculation, but sound observation.”

 

Darkness is a SE experienced by the self like any other SE and has neural correlate(s). It is because of an absence of light stimulus, which causes a chain of interactive signals from retina to cortex. This leads to SE of darkness thru the matching and selection mechanism of the eDAM using interaction between the endogenous (because there is no exogenous/external signal from an object in pitch dark) feed forward signals and cognitive feedback signal. The SE darkness is selected from the SEs stored in LTM by the selection mechanism and is experienced by the self. My colleagues agree on interaction between experiencer/self and objects for a SE. This is a testable hypothesis by an easy experiment by just reducing the intensity of light signal from high value to zero and recording neural activities using EEG/fMRI.

 

You do not need to give me any example. I fully understand your point of view. However, unfortunately it is 100% incorrect hypothesis that the interaction between an experiencer/self and object is not needed for experiencing it. 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Sunday, 6 August 2017 4:01 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected Dr. Ram,

Thanks.

As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “In physics, a field is a physical quantity, typically a number or tensor, that has a value for each point in space nd time.^[1][2][3] For example, […] an electric field can be thought of as a "condition in space"^[4] emanating from an electric charge and extending throughout the whole of space. When a test electric charge is placed in this electric field, the particle accelerates due to a force.” This implies that when the “Field of Awareness” (like an electric field) “permeates” Chitta (like a test charge), Chitta/Prakṛti interacts with the “field of awareness”/Puruṣa. 

The Field of Awareness, as arising out of the consciousness, is not compared with the one as that of an electric charge or the magnetic field. The electric and magnetic fields are the emergent/derived fields and they act on each and every point in the space.In other words, the electric field and magnetic field remain present in each and every point of space/time. But the Field of Awareness had never emerged out of any other thing thru some mechanism. It always existed as such, whether before or after the creation or during the period universe remains in the manifested stage. Further, it is not that the field of the Awareness remains present in each and every point of space/time but it is the space and time which emerges out from the Field of Awareness and each and every point of space/time exist in that Field. So any comparison of the field of awareness with those of physical fields like that of electric or magnetic one is ill conceived and arguments as applicable to the physical electric/magnetic fields are not applicable to the Field of Awareness. I had used the term Field of Awareness to make it more understandable on the lines of the physical fields.

The closest comparison of the Field of Awareness, which comes to my mind, is that of the space. The primary function of the space is  to provide a base, a medium for the existence and operation ( motion) to the distinct physical objects. When space fulfills these two functions viz providing base and medium for the motion, space needs to have any interaction with the physical objects since these functions are always self-evident in space. Similarly, awareness is always self-evident, self-manifested in the consciousness and it need not interact with the final signal of thought/experiences.

What mistake you are making in your thinking is that you are extending the logic of the mechanism of the interaction between two physical entities to the consciousness and awareness but forgetting that awareness is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute/ nature of the consciousness  on the same pattern providing the basis for existence and medium for motion is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute.nature of space.

 

As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “Quantum field theory states that all fundamental fields, such as the electromagnetic field, must be quantized at each and every point in space. A field in physics may be envisioned as if space were filled with interconnected vibrating balls and springs, and the strength of the field is like the displacement of a ball from its rest position.” This implies that “Field of Awareness” can be quantized at each point in space and each awareness is an experience what Chitta related to an individual has.

Again by comparing the field of awareness with the physical field like a quantum field, you are arriving at wrong inferences/conclusion. The Field of the Awareness, unlike some physical quantum field, is not a quantum field. The cosmic consciousness and  Field of Awareness as fundamentally innate with it is an infinite, indivisible, a Holistic One and it is not located in space/time but it is space/time which emerges out such Field of Awareness. It is not that each and every point of the Field of Awareness  ( in fact, there are no points/parts in this field due to it being holistic infinite one) is located in each and every point of space/time BUT it is the each and every point of the space/time which is located in the infinite holistic Field of Awareness. Therefore, any attempt to understand the cosmic consciousness or Field of Awareness from the conventional logic as applicable to the mecahnism as applicable to the physical entities is bound to laed to wroong inferences/conclusions.

 

If “Puruṣa always remains present in all the entities” or soul (localized Puruṣa) is present in all the entities of a mind-brain system and does not interact with them then it has to be the inseparable aspect of the entities (Prakriti).

 It is separable from the ontological existential point of view, remain present in Prakriti and all its derivatives but for having awareness of the Prakriti, it need not interact with Prakriti due to awareness being its fundamental and innate nature, as elaborated in the foregoing paras. Again the analogy of the space and physical objects will help you to understand this point of view. Space remains present in all the physical objects but it is separable from the physical objects and for its fundamental functions viz providing base for the existence of the physical objects and medium for their operation ( motion), it need not interact with the physical objects. On the same pattern, consciousness( having fundamental awareness) always remain present in Prakriti and its derivatives and yet it is separate from Prakriti and for having awareness of Prakriti and its derivatives, it need not interact with the Prakriti and its derivatives ( due to awareness being a fundamental and innate nature/attribute of the consciousness).

Actually, it is wrong to state that consciousness/awareness remain present in Prakriti or its derivatives. It is the Prakriti and its derivatives which reside/exist in the consciousness or Field of Awareness. 

 If they are separable, then they must interact for the soul to experience the objects. Simple presence is not going to do anything, such as experiencing the objects. This is simply because they then are isolated systems, which by definition, there would be no communication between them. 

Please try to come out from the logic of physicality as applicable to the physical systems. Please try to understand from the analogy of space and physical objects as to how Prakriti and all its derivatives can exist in  Consciousness/Field of Awareness yet they can be separate and for the consciousness to be aware of the Prakriti, it need not interact with it.

If you like you can verify with any knowledgeable unbiased colleague. If you do not agree then let us agree that we have no agreement on this topic.

That is why I send copies of my messages to other people also ( 6  as indicated above) but no one has commented. I thought they will also provide their views but so far none has done so. I request you to please send our debate/conversation to other people also.

 

It is too complicated to discuss darkness physiology here; you need to understand whole physiology by reading a book including how retina, visual system, SCN, and ARAS works. In any case, there are lots of interaction in CNS when there is no light. If you want, you can verify my claim with any knowledgeable physiology professor.

I am not denying the physiological changes/process undergoing in the eyes/body/brain during darkness and sleep/dreams. What I had been emphasizing and somehow you are not directly responding that even though our consciousness can have the awareness of the darkness but no actual physical interaction takes place between darkness and our brain and mind, leave alone the consciousness. I had provided this analogy of the awareness of darkness in the absence of any actual interaction to highlight the point that consciousness/awareness can have the awareness of the finally processed signal of thoughts/experiences without any interaction with these signals.

If you still subscribe to the view that interaction is necessary for the awareness of the consciousness, please address this very issue as to how the darkness is awarized by the consciousness and yet no interaction take place even between the darkness and brain/body. Here I am speaking of the direct interaction between the darkness and the brain/body and mind and NOT of any physiological changes/process in the brain. That process/changes occur otherwise also in the brain in the absence of the darkness.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

 

On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “In physics, a field is a physical quantity, typically a number or tensor, that has a value for each point in space and time.^[1][2][3] For example, […] an electric field can be thought of as a "condition in space"^[4] emanating from an electric charge and extending throughout the whole of space. When a test electric charge is placed in this electric field, the particle accelerates due to a force.” This implies that when the “Field of Awareness” (like an electric field) “permeates” Chitta (like a test charge), Chitta/Prakṛti interacts with the “field of awareness”/Puruṣa.  

 

As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “Quantum field theory states that all fundamental fields, such as the electromagnetic field, must be quantized at each and every point in space. A field in physics may be envisioned as if space were filled with interconnected vibrating balls and springs, and the strength of the field is like the displacement of a ball from its rest position.” This implies that “Field of Awareness” can be quantized at each point in space and each awareness is an experience what Chitta related to an individual has.

 

If “Puruṣa always remains present in all the entities” or soul (localized Puruṣa) is present in all the entities of a mind-brain system and does not interact with them then it has to be the inseparable aspect of the entities (Prakriti). If they are separable, then they must interact for the soul to experience the objects. Simple presence is not going to do anything, such as experiencing the objects. This is simply because they then are isolated systems, which by definition, there would be no communication between them. If you like you can verify with any knowledgeable unbiased colleague. If you do not agree then let us agree that we have no agreement on this topic.

 

It is too complicated to discuss darkness physiology here; you need to understand whole physiology by reading a book including how retina, visual system, SCN, and ARAS works. In any case, there are lots of interaction in CNS when there is no light. If you want, you can verify my claim with any knowledgeable physiology professor.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Saturday, 5 August 2017 5:17 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected Dr. Ram,

Thanks.

Thanks. Let us discuss the first problem of Sāṅkhya. I will address your queries related to the eDAM later if other colleagues are also interested because I have discussed them many times with you.

Sehgal: You still fail to grasp the key point which I have been trying to bring out repeatedly. The Localized consciousness/soul is placed in Chitta in the causal body. Awareness being an intrinsic and integral attribute/nature of the consciousness, a “Field of Awareness” permeates Chitta or may be even beyond that. When the finally processed signal of any thought/experience is projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes in the “Field of Awareness” That is all. Why do you want to bring forcefully any interaction between the signal of thought/experience and consciousness when signal already exist in the “Field of Awareness” implying thought/experience is already awareized?

 

Vimal: You are unable to understand what the term “interaction” means and what its implications are in the context of our discussion.

I had my definition of interaction in the pure physical context in my 

previous message also. Let me mention that once again. Two entities 

are said to be in interaction in the physical sense when either they are

in actual physical contact with each other, wherein some exchange of something

 actually, take place between the two OR  they are distant and a signal of some 

physical energy exchanges/transits between the two entities. Please keep in mind that

this is the definition applicable to physical entities ONLY and not necessarily applicable

to the conscious entities. If you have any other definition, clarify the same since first

it will ne necessary to arrive at some consensual definition of interaction

 Let us look at closely what you have written. “Field of Awareness” 

permeates Chitta”: the verb “permeates” implies “interaction”.

No, in the aforesaid, you are mistaking and misinterpreting. Please

don't go after semantics and sometimes language becomes a barrier

in expressing the intended meanings. When I used the words

 "Field of Awareness" 

permeates Chitta, I did not intend to mean

that this Field has any interaction with Chitta.What I intended to

convey was that the Field of Awareness just make its presence in

Chitta without having any actual interaction with Chitta ( with interaction as

defined above). Now for the argument sake, You can say 

that "just making the presence" is also a verb. But wait, it was the limitation of

the language to express some idea. Field of awareness actually

never makes its presence in Chitta as part of some emergent

phenomenon. It fundamentally remain present in all the entities -

before, after and during the existence of all the entities.

I hope the following analogy may help you to grasp  the key point 

if you are willing to approach the whole issue with an open and 

honest mindset. When a closed room or some physical object say a pot is constructed,

we can say that space has permeated or the room or pot. But neither 

any action (verb) is done by space nor any interaction take place

between the space and pot/room for its permeating/appearing. The 

space was present, is present and will present before the construction

of the room and pot; it did make any action to permeate in the 

room/pot, there is no interaction between the pot/room and space 

yet space is present in the pot/room.

So is the case with the localized consciousness having a Field

of Awareness and Chitta.

 

“When the finally processed signal of any thought/experience

 is projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes in 

the “Field of Awareness” ” The terms “projected” and “comes” 

also imply “interaction”.

Did I use the words "projected" and "comes" for the consciousness?

I used these words for the signal of thoughts/experiences and did

I indicate that this signal is consciousness? It seems that you are commenting mechanically

without the application of the proper mind. And then "projecting"

and "comes" in the "Field of Awareness" should also be understood

in the same way as any physical object is projected and comes in 

the space

 

 In all cases, none of 

them (such as "Field of Awareness"/Puruṣa and Chitta/P rakṛti) 

remain isolated.

Please ponder over repeatedly the analogy of space and  physical

objects say  a pot/room and  slowly it will become clear how the

Field of Awareness or Purusha alawys remain present in 

Chitta/Prakriti  without any interaction

 

 Just replacing "interacts" with other words is 

not going to change what is going on between Puruṣa and Prakṛti

 of  Sāṅkhya 

Nothing happens between Purusha and Prakriti the way nothing

happens between the space and physical objects. Yet space 

remains present in all physical objects, similarly, Purusha

always remains present in all the entities and in Chitta to be more

specifically for the purpose of experience of any thought.

Then I had indicated in my message also that it is NOT the Purusha

which ultimately experiences the thoughts. It is the localized

consciousness/soul, which is an image of Purusha the way an 

image of the Sun reflects in water in a pond, which experiences

the thoughts/experiences. Therefore, any experience by the localized

consciousness/soul of any thought/experience does not affect the

Purusha the way any change/modification of the image of the Sun

in water in one pond does neither affects the  Sun nor the images

of Sun in innumerable other ponds/vessels.

if we examine closely and carefully in an unbiased 

manner.

Yes, if you will ponder with an open and unbiased mindset over

the aforesaid thoughts, you may become free from the misconception

of any interaction between the consciosuness and Chitta/thoughts/

Prakriti.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

______________________________ ______________________________ _

NB. But still you have not responded how we get the awareness

of the darkness despite the absence of any obvious interaction

between the darkness and our brain/mind.

Vinod Sehgal

 

On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 10:04 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks. Let us discuss the first problem of Sāṅkhya. I will address your queries related to the eDAM later if other colleagues are also interested because I have discussed them many times with you.

Sehgal: You still fail to grasp the key point which I have been trying to bring out repeatedly. The Localized consciousness/soul is placed in Chitta in the causal body. Awareness being an intrinsic and integral attribute/nature of the consciousness, a “Field of Awareness” permeates Chitta or may be even beyond that. When the finally processed signal of any thought/experience is projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes in the “Field of Awareness” That is all. Why do you want to bring forcefully any interaction between the signal of thought/experience and consciousness when signal already exist in the “Field of Awareness” implying thought/experience is already awareized?

 

Vimal: You are unable to understand what the term “interaction” means and what its implications are in the context of our discussion. Let us look at closely what you have written. “Field of Awareness” permeates Chitta”: the verb “permeates” implies “interaction”. “When the finally processed signal of any thought/experience is projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes in the “Field of Awareness” ” The terms “projected” and “comes” also imply “interaction”. In all cases, none of them (such as "Field of Awareness"/Puruṣa and Chitta/P rakṛti) remain isolated. Just replacing "interacts" with other words is not going to change what is going on between Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya if we examine closely and carefully in an unbiased manner.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://s ites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/ Home

https://www.researchgate.net/p rofile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal  

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Friday, 4 August 2017 3:17 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected Dr, Ram,

Thanks.

Your thinking is not correct. The “intrinsic awareness as a non-emergent fundamental attribute in all the states” also needs interaction with the objects to be aware of. If there is no interaction then it is an isolated system without any communication, then how can soul or God be aware of the objects? Just saying that they do because it is intrinsic is a total nonsense.

You still fail to grasp the key point which I have been trying to bring out repeatedly. The Localized consciousness/soul is placed in Chitta in the causal body. Awareness being an intrinsic and integral attribute/nature of the consciousness, a "Field of Awareness permeates Chitta or may be even beyond that. When the finally processed signal of any thought/experience is projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes in the "Field of Awareness' That is all. Why do you want to bring forcefully any interaction between the signal of thought/experience and consciousness when signal already exist in the "Field of Awareness" implying thought/experience is already awareized?

 

I suggested reading physiology because you really need background what interaction means and what are its implications. Darkness also needs endogenous interaction within its neural network to experience darkness even if there is no exogenous (external) signal from the pitched darkness. When there are no light signals, only ‘cone’ photoreceptors do not work, but ‘rod’ photoreceptors start working in pitch darkness. In addition, ARAS system and thalamo-cortical system also keep on working and hence interactions between the components of the related NN occur during darkness.

The key issue is not if cone photoreceptors or rod [hotorece[ptors work OR thalmocortical system work or not. Before the experience of the darkness also, thalmonuclear system was working So what special feature is added by the working of the thalmocortical system when darkness is experienced? Similarly, even if rod photoreceptors work, how it ensures that some interaction is taking place between darkness and rod [hotoreceptors?

The key question is that you have been insisting that for having awareness of 'anything", an interaction should be established between 'that thing" and the consciousness via the brain and mind. I have been highlighting that when we experience "darkness", no interaction can be established between the "darkness"-- which is awarized by the consciousness and even the brain/mind, leave alone the consciousness.

In the strict physical framework of the mechanism of interaction, for establishing any interaction between two things, a signal of some physical energy should transit between the two things. So if you insist that for having the awareness of "anything: ( darkness here), establishing an interaction between "that thing" and consciousness is must, please explain what type of signal can propagate from the darkness to eyes/brain. At the moment, I am speaking of an interaction between the darkness and eyes/brain and not consciousness. If no signal can propagate from darkness to eyes/brain, implying the absence of any interaction, how can a signal propagate to the consciousness? Please address this very issue in a frontal manner and NOT speak of other in-brain mechanisms which are not connected to the experience of darkness.

The fact is that the consciousness, due to its very innate nature of "awareness", becomes aware of the existence as well non-existence, presence as well absence, light as well darkness WITHOUT any interaction. The "awareness" by the consciousness is not governed by the normal Laws of the interaction between matter/energy in the physical world, which you forcibly want to extend to the awareness by the consciousness also.

 The same goes for sleep and dream where eyes are closed and sleep, dream, or imagine in a pitch dark.  Moreover, thoughts always entail interactions. In the NS state also when thoughts are minimized or zero, yogi’s system has endogenous interactions.

 

The queries you listed as problems of the eDAM are all your misunderstanding and misconstruction of the eDAM. If you seriously want to understand the eDAM, first you rigorously need to read completely with the understanding of 5 articles: (Vimal, 2008),(Vimal, 2010a), (Vimal, 2013), (Vimal, 2015b), and (Vimal, 2016c). You need enough background in related sciences to understand them; they are technical stuff in these articles.

I have read and pondered over these articles a no of times. On a no of occasions, I requested you to point out my misunderstanding/misconstructi on in a specific manner but you could bring out none of these. Now since we are discussing in a wide forum, with all my messages marked to 6 more participants also, it is better that you may respond to the problems of eDAM, instead of having a complacency, that this metaphysics is problem free and perfect or less problematic than other metaphysics

I am again replicating the problems of eDAM, as highlighted by me in my previous message as well many times previously but got no satisfactory and convincing response/solution from your side

i) There is no objective or subject evidence for the existence of any mental aspects with the physical aspects of the matter particles. The whole notion of the existence of any mental aspects with the matter particles is a speculative one.

ii) The mental aspect is hypothesized as the Functions and the physical aspects as structure. But it is also hypothesized that the mental aspects don't take birth from the physical aspects. There is no logical and convincing explanation as to how the mental aspects manifest if these are functions and also don't take birth from the structure ( physical). eDAM's attempt to base the physical-mental aspects on the co-origination and co-evolution philosophy of Nagarjuna's Buddhist Philosophy of "essenceless" and "causeless" primordial existence is replete with a no of explanatory gaps/problems. I sent you a detailed message on the Structure_Function interface in Nagarjuna's Philosophy/eDAM a few days ago, pointed out a no of problems, but you did not respond. 

iii) In the primordial stage, both the physical and mental aspects are hypothesized in eDAM to exist in some common state of superposition. eDAM further hypothesizes that the physical aspects manifest in the CM by the collapse of the superposition but paradoxically, mental aspects continue to stay in the state of superposition. No explanation for this.

iv) eDAM states that all our subjective experiences are due to the manifestation of some Potential experiences( PEs) in the mental aspects as inseparable with the physical aspects of the matter particles. Implicitly, this amounts to a high degree of superdeterminism in all the subjective experiences of all the people of the universe at all the times -- a highly improbable and bizarre situation.

v) eDAM is based upon the Quantum Vacuum of the quantum physicists which is not able to explain even the physical aspects of the observable universe, leave alone the mental aspects.

For the sake of brevity, I want to limit the above 5 problems only otherwise there is a no of other problems in eDAM which don't have any solution

Now I am adding some more problems to the above list of problems

i) We observe that we have a  conscious self ( "I-ness") which remains invariant in the entire life from childhood till the old age, from birth till death. If the mental aspects of the conscious invariant self could be the manifestation from some latent mental aspects as inseparable with the physical aspects of the matter particles of the brain, it means there should be some invariant

physical NCC. But this is not possible since from the childhood till death, out brain undergoes continues change from moment to moment. Old cells/neurons are continuously replaced with the new one. Therefore, there can not be any invariant NCC corresponding to invariant conscious self.

ii) eDAM hypothesizes that there is one mental aspect in the latent state with the matter particles which manifests in a functional brain only. But for this manifestation, eDAM has prescribed no of conditions viz the presence of the working memory, conscious state, attention. This is a paradox. All these are the part of the mental aspects which is hypothesized to manifest from the latent mental aspects. So the mental aspects which is supposed to manifest from the latent mental aspects with the brain particles itself have been made to exist in the functional brain!

iii) eDAM hypothesizes that in the primordial stage, the mental aspect exists in some latent form for which the term Potential Experiences (PES). At the functional brain level, at the time of the manifestation, this mental aspect splits into two groups -- function sub-aspects viz thoughts, judgment, emotions. memory, planning, all perceptual and cognitive functions AND experiential sub-aspect which experiences all these functional sub-aspects. But there is no clear mechanism as to how the same mental aspects split into two different sub-aspects.

Further, the conscious aspect which experiences is a constant, ever persisting, ever life and the mental functions are the shut on/shut off one-time phenomenon. How. both these differently sub-aspects can exist in a common mental aspect? No clarity on this

iv) eDAM postulates some theistic version of eDAM were conscious soul perpetuates after death. But eDAM fails to account for how it is possible within its key postulates. After the death, the brain particles disintegrate and scatter away. How from those scattered particles, any conscious soul can manifest since while in the living conditions, the conscious soul manifests from an aggregate of those scattered particles and that too when the brain is fully functional?

v) eDAM hypothesizes that the mental aspect exists in some latent ( potential) format as inseparable with the physical aspects of all the discrete elementary and compound particles of the matter and energy in the universe right from the primordial stage onwards. The mental aspects is also governed by the same physical laws as governing the physical particles. The mental aspects also undergo thru the same transformational and transmutational process as the physical aspects. So ipso facto, there is no mental aspect but this is a physical aspect.

In order to not to make the whole issue not so complicated, let me give a break here.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

 

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:50 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

Your thinking is not correct. The “intrinsic awareness as a non-emergent fundamental attribute in all the states” also needs interaction with the objects to be aware of. If there is no interaction then it is an isolated system without any communication, then how can soul or God be aware of the objects? Just saying that they do because it is intrinsic is a total nonsense.

 

I suggested reading physiology because you really need background what interaction means and what are its implications. Darkness also needs endogenous interaction within its neural network to experience darkness even if there is no exogenous (external) signal from the pitched darkness. When there are no light signals, only ‘cone’ photoreceptors do not work, but ‘rod’ photoreceptors start working in pitch darkness. In addition, ARAS system and thalamo-cortical system also keep on working and hence interactions between the components of the related NN occur during darkness. The same goes for sleep and dream where eyes are closed and sleep, dream, or imagine in a pitch dark.  Moreover, thoughts always entail interactions. In the NS state also when thoughts are minimized or zero, yogi’s system has endogenous interactions.

 

The queries you listed as problems of the eDAM are all your misunderstanding and misconstruction of the eDAM. If you seriously want to understand the eDAM, first you rigorously need to read completely with the understanding of 5 articles: (Vimal, 2008), (Vimal, 2010a), (Vimal, 2013), (Vimal, 2015b), and (Vimal, 2016c). You need enough background in related sciences to understand them; they are technical stuff in these articles.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Thursday, 3 August 2017 2:19 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Continuation of prev email:

... We need to convert dualistic Sāṅkhya into a version of dual-aspect monism. For example, Puruṣa can be considered as the experiential aspect and inseparable Prakṛti as physica l-mentalaspect (with causal and astral bodies as mental sub-aspect, and physical bodies as physical sub-aspect)

Your aforesaid views/hypothesis are not supported by any subjective

evidence ( as flowing from the reproducible experiences in the state of 

Samaadhi Or any objective evidence as flowing out from any objective empirical experimentation . Furthermore, the whole concept of the presence of any mental aspects

with the physical aspects of the discrete matter and energy particles ( which is the central

 feature of eDAM) is replete with a no of logical inconsistencies. Vide my message as sent

 3 days ago, I had indicated some 5 problems of eDAM but you did not respond. Let be replicate those 5 problems again for your consideration and response.

I shall comment only on eDAM and Nagarjuna's co-origination ( which forms the basis for eDAM). There is a large no of evidence and logical based inconsistencies in eDAM. I shall point out a few of these here

i) There is no objective or subject evidence for the existence of any mental aspects with the physical aspects of the matter particles. The whole notion of the existence of any mental aspects with the matter particles is a speculative one.

ii) The mental aspects is hypothesized as the Functions and the physical aspects as structure. But it is also hypothesized that the mental aspects don't take birth from the physical aspects. There is no logical and convincing explanation as to how the mental aspects manifest if these are functions and also don't take birth from the structure ( physical). eDAM's attempt to base the physical-mental aspects on the co-origination and co-evolution philosophy of Nagarjuna's Buddhist Philosophy of "essenceless" and "causeless" primordial existence is replete with a no of explanatory gaps/problems. I sent you a detailed message on the Structure_Function interface in Nagarjuna's Philosophy/eDAM a few days ago, pointed out a no of problems, but you did not respond. 

iii) In the primordial stage, both the physical and mental aspects are hypothesized in eDAM to exist in some common state of superposition. eDAM further hypothesizes that the physical aspects manifest in the CM by the collapse of the superposition but paradoxically, mental aspects continue to stay in the state of superposition. No explanation for this.

iv) eDAM states that all our subjective experiences are due to the manifestation of some Potential experiences( PEs) in the mental aspects as inseparable with the physical aspects of the matter particles. Implicitly, this amounts to a high degree of superdeterminism in all the subjective experiences of all the people of the universe at all the times -- a highly improbable and bizarre situation.

v) eDAM is based upon the Quantum Vacuum of the quantum physicists which is not able to explain even the physical aspects of the observable universe, leave alone the mental aspects.

For the sake of brevity, I want to limit the above 5 problems only otherwise there is a no of other problems in eDAM which don't have any solution.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

______________________________ ______________________________ ___

 Now I am adding some more problems to the above list of problems

i) We observe that we have an  conscious self ( "I-ness") which remains invarant in the entire life from childhood till the old age, from birth till death. If the mental aspects of the conscious invariant self could be the manifestation from some latent mental aspects as inseparable with the physical aspects of the matter particles of the brain, it means there should be some invariant

physical NCC. But this is not possible since from the childhood till death, out brain undergoes continues change from moment to moment. Old cells/neurons are continuously replaced with the new one. Therefore, there can not be any invariant NCC corresponding to invariant conscious self.

ii) eDAM hypothesizes that there is one mental aspect in the latent state with the matter particles which manifests in a functional brain only. But for this manifestation, eDAM has prescribed no of conditions viz the presence of the working memory, conscious state, attention. This is a paradox. All these are the part of the mental aspects which is hypothesized to manifest from the latent mental aspects. So the mental aspects which is supposed to manifest from the latent mental aspects with the brain particles itself have been made to exist in the functional brain!

iii) eDAM hypothesizes that in the primordial stage, the mental aspect exists in some latent form for which the term Potential Experiences (PES). At the functional brain level, at the time of the manifestation, this mental aspect splits into two groups -- function sub-aspects viz thoughts, judgment, emotions. memory, planning, all perceptual and cognitive functions AND experiential sub-aspect which experiences all these functional sub-aspects. But there is no clear mechanism as to how the same mental aspects splits into two different sub-aspects.

Further, the conscious aspect which experiences is a constant, ever persisting, ever life and the mental functions are the shut on/shut off one-time phenomenon. How. both these differently sub-aspects can exist in a common mental aspect? No clarity on this

iv) eDAM postulates some theistic version of eDAM were conscious soul perpetuates after death. But eDAM fails to account for how it is possible within its key postulates. After the death, the brain particles disintegrate and scatter away. How from those scattered particles, any conscious soul can manifest since while in the living conditions, the conscious soul manifests from an aggregate of those scattered particles and that too when the brain is fully functional?

v) eDAM hypothesizes that the mental aspect exists in some latent ( potential) format as inseparable with the physical aspects of all the discrete elementary and compound particles of the matter and energy in the universe right from the primordial stage onwards. The mental aspects is also governed by the same physical laws as governing the physical particles. The mental aspects also undergo thru the same transformational and transmutational process as the physical aspects. So ipso facto, there is no mental aspect but this is a physical aspect.

In order to not to make the whole issue not so complicated, let me give a break here.

Regards and thanks.

Vinod Sehgal

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Continuation of prev email:

... We need to convert dualistic Sāṅkhya into a version of dual-aspect monism. For example, Puruṣa can be considered as the experiential aspect and inseparable Prakṛti as physical-mental aspect (with causal and astral bodies as mental sub-aspect, and physical bodies as physical sub-aspect).  ...

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://s ites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/ Home

https://www.researchgate.net/p rofile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal  

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Wednesday, 2 August 2017 10:10 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

Sehgal (2 August 2017)

Above is OK that brain always continues to function from birth until death. If the brain may stop function, life may come to end. However, with this, consciousness and awareness will not come to an end. The same consciousness and awareness manifests in the new brain in a new body in a new birth BUT NOT MIND (with a due difference in the consciousness and mind as an aggregate of manifested thoughts). However, seeds of thoughts (Samskāras), mind as a structural reality of the Primordial physicality still, survives the death of the physical body/brain. ARAS system was working even before the awareness of the darkness. If you stick to the notion that for the awareness of any external system by the consciousness, some interactional mechanism should be set up between the external system and the consciousness, it means when our consciousness becomes aware of the darkness, some interactional mechanism should be set up between the darkness and our brain/mind/consciousness. In addition, for establishing any interactional mechanism, some signal of some energy should emanate out from the darkness to the brain/mind/consciousness. Now you may please explain which signal can emanate out from the darkness to the brain/mind/consciousness for establishing an interactional mechanism. One thing more, ARAS system does not create awareness or consciousness. It is like a shut on/shut off gate for the manifestation of the consciousness/awareness at the physical body/brain system. An enlightened yogi can have his awareness in the manifested state even without the ARAS system being in the functional form for the manifestation of the awareness but minimum vital parameters necessary for sustaining life should continue to be maintained.

Vimal

Please read ARAS and sleep, dream, consciousness physiology for your queries. My point is that interaction is always involved. Therefore, in Sāṅkhya, the interaction between Puruṣa (in either parts or whole) and Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, and empowerment. This is a serious category mistake. Therefore, the association problem remains and hence we cannot use Sāṅkhya as it is. We need to convert dualistic Sāṅkhya into a version of dual-aspect monism. The sub-Planck level physics might be an interesting project but it is unclear how to link it to astral level. Many World Interpretation (MWI) of QM seems to use the concept of parallel worlds or multiverse, but it has its own problem and again it is unclear how to link it to astral world. The third clue may be String Theory, where multi-dimensions (more than 4D+1) are used, but how to link to the astral dimension is unclear.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://s ites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/ Home

https://www.researchgate.net/p rofile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal  

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Wednesday, 2 August 2017 2:37 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Vimal: A brain is always working since birth to death; neural and physiological interactions always go on in all states of our mind-brain system including deep sleep, dream, wakeful conscious and Samādhi states.

Above is OK that brain always continues to function from birth till death. If

the brain may stop function, life may come to end. But with this, 

consciosuness and awareness will not come to an end. The same consciousness and

awareness manifests in the new brain 

in new body in the new birth BUT NOT MIND ( with due difference in

the consciousness and mind as an aggregate of manifested thoughts).

However seeds of  thoughts ( Samskaras), Mind as a structural reality

of the Primordial physicality still, survives the death of the physical 

body/brain.

 Thus, interaction is certainly involved in the experience of complete 

darkness, especially in the ARAS system.

ARAS system was working even before the awareness of the darkness.

If you stick to the notion  that for the awareness of any external 

system by the consciousness, some interactional mechanism should 

be set up between the external system and the consciousness, 

it means when our consciousness becomes aware of the darkness, 

some interactional mechanism should be set up between the darkness 

and our brain/mind/consciousness. And for establishing any 

 interactional mechanism, some signal of some energy should 

emanate out from the darkness to the brain/mind/consciousness.

Now you may please explain, which signal can emanate out from

the darkness to the brain/mind/consciousness for establishing

an interactional mechanism?

One thing more. ARAS system does not create awareness or consciousness It is like a 

shut on/shut off gate for the manifestation of the consciousness/awareness at

the physical body/brain system. An enlightened Yogi can have his awareness

in the manifested state even without the ARAS system being in the functional

form for the manifestation of the awareness but minimum vital parameters 

necessary for sustaining life should continue to be maintained.

 In Nature, there is always interaction one way or other in all living and non-living systems. I do not know any natural isolated system. This is known as Madhu-Vidyā(the doctrine of the mutual interdependence of entities) as elaborated in  Brihadaranyaka Upanishad II.v.1-19, and in the Chandogya Upanishad III 1-5.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

Sehgal: Another example as to how the consciousness can become aware of the 'others' due to its in-built fundamental feature. Of awareness without going into any interactional mechanism with some external system, you stay in a pitch dark room. You are aware that there is darkness in the room without any interaction of the darkness and your consciousness. Even if you would like to forcibly bring interaction in the experience of the darkness, you can't bring in the same. What is in the darkness -- which signal which will interact with the consciousness or even with eyes/brain/mind? But it is a fact that we as consciousness become aware if darkness without any interaction. So is with all thoughts and experiences.

Vimal: A brain is always working since birth to death; neural and physiological interactions always go on in all states of our mind-brain system including deep sleep, dream, wakeful conscious and Samādhi states. Thus, interaction is certainly involved in the experience of complete darkness, especially in the ARAS system. In Nature, there is always interaction one way or other in all living and non-living systems. I do not know any natural isolated system. This is known as Madhu-Vidyā (the doctrine of the mutual interdependence of entities) as elaborated in  Brihadaranyaka Upanishad II.v.1-19, and in the Chandogya Upanishad III 1-5.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Tuesday, 1 August 2017 4:00 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear  Dr.Ram,

Another example as to how the consciousness  can become aware of the 'others' due to its in-built fundamental feature. Of awareness without going into any interactional mechanism with some external system
You stay in a pitched dark  room. You are aware that there is darkness in the room without any interaction of the darkness and your consciousness. Even if you would like to forcibly bring interaction in the experience of the darkness, you  can't bring in the same. What is in the darkness -- which signal which will interact with the consciousness or even with eyes/brain/mind? But it is a fact that we as consciousness  become aware  if darkness without any interaction. So is with all thoughts and experiences.

Vinod Sehgal

On Tuesday, August 1, 2017, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Respected Dr. Ram,
> Thanks.
> Dear Vinod ji,
> Thanks.
> The key point, which you are failing to grasp, is that the "awareness" is the intrinsic nature of the consciousness and for becoming aware of any entity/phenomenon, it need not enter into any other interaction/mechanism. Awareness is not an emergent/created phenomenon in the consciousness. For example, when you are awake, for becoming awake, you need not enter into any other process/mechanism since you are already awake.
>  
> How an E.M. field and a matter particle like an electron belong to the same group when one is localized matter and other is a ubiquitous field? They interact and how there is no category mistake? 
>  
> Anyhow, examples of e.m field/gravitational field and their interaction with particles are not applicable to the cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti since these fields belong to the Physical realm and mechanisms/Laws of the physical world are not applicable to even the astral world (Realm of tanmātras -- a realm of subtle physicality) let alone cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti. Your problem in thinking has been that you are not able to think beyond the Laws/mechanisms of the Physical world.
>  
> Your above quote is self-contradictory. If awareness is inherent/fundamental/intrinsic to the consciousness, how and why it should require any interaction. This will amount to forcibly bringing in the interaction when awareness is already existing in the consciousness.
>  
> Where is the contradiction? If Shabda and Prāṇa exist in the cosmic consciousness by its very nature (like that of awareness), why it should interact with the Moola Prakriti? If Shabda and Prāṇa are being manifested in Moola Prakriti Due the very presence of the cosmic consciousness, creation of Shabda and Prāṇa will amount to a fundamental/inherent phenomenon in Moola Prakriti without any actual interaction.
>  
> One more thing, which you fail to comprehend, is that for an actual interaction between two entities, both the entities should be discrete and divisible. Cosmic consciousness is NOT a discrete, divisible finite entity. Therefore, even if you would like to have the interaction of the cosmic consciousness and that of the Moola Prakriti, the same is not feasible.
>  
> If you do not agree with the above view, please explain the interaction of discrete matter particles and indivisible space (if it is treated as continuous).
>
> Vimal
>
> To maintain wakefulness, there is constant interaction in ARAS system as per neuroscience of wakefulness. The same goes for any type of awareness.
> This you have indicated the physical aspect of wakefulness. Anyhow, even for the physical aspect of the ARAS system to remain in the state of wakefulness, this system need not interact with any other external system. What I wanted to highlight by this analogy ( and an analogy should not be taken in the literal sense), when any feature of a system is inbuilt in the system as part of its fundamentality, It need not interact with any external system for the manifestation of that feature since that feature  is self-manifested, self-referenced and self-evidence. Based upon this logical argument, "awareness" is the very non-emergent fundamental feature of the consciousness, therefore, it need not interact with any external entity/system for the manifestation of the awareness. Awareness never manifest in the consciousness. It always continues to remain present in the consciousness. In fact, there is no meaning of the consciousness without being aware.
> In western classification, since fields (such as EM and gravitational field), particles (such as an electron), and waves are (non-mental) physical entities, they are in the same major group; so they can interact without making category mistake;
> How do you define a category?
> When are two categories said to be different?
> When and how two categories interact?
> Why there can't be different categories with the physical group?
> You should address the above issues before going into the issue of the category mistake.
> ______________________________ ______________________________ ___
> Then how do you define non-physical and distinguish it from physical?
> You could say that "anything" which is not physical is non-physical and you may include anything, as known to Science i.e baryonic matter and energy of 4 forces as non-physical and include this under a different category. But this is an arbitrary and incorrect way of defining the second category. Merely stating that whatever is not physical, as known to contemporary science as on day, is non-physical does not serve any purpose since Science is totally blind about the ontology of THAT non-physical.
> So the concept of the category mistake in Science would have been relevant if Science would have been aware of the ontology of both realms viz Physical ( matter and physical energy)  and Non-Physical and then established why and how the interaction between the two is not feasible? But for science non-physical realm is almost non-existing, therefore, why to hypothesize any such category? Unless, science has no clarity about the second category, which it conveniently classify as Non-physical to hide its incompleteness of that realm of nature, how can it say that there is some category mistake?
> ______________________________ ______________________________ ______
> In Science, there have been some concepts which have been existing since long and taken granted as correct but when investigated a bit further, those are found to be wrong. I shall name two concepts in this regard -- "Self Organizing" and "Category mistake". The concept of self-organizing is taken in the sense that some phenomenon happens on its own without any internal or external Laws like an auto-pilot which is treated as automatic. But in the case of an auto pilot, some inbuilt Laws are built by some external programmer and auto-pilot moves according to those in-built laws. Similarly, there is nothing like any self-organizing phenomenon. All such phenomenon are governed by some internal Laws existing within the system.
> Similarly, there is nothing like category mistake since 
> i) you can't   define the different category in precise terms
> ii) Can't specify when one category will be different than other
> iii) can't specify when and how two categories will interact?
> So the whole concept of the category mistake in Science, which is taken correctly as granted, is a misnomer.
> The fact is that whatever interaction nature allows happens and whatever interaction does not allow does not happen WITHOUT any dependency on categories.
>
>  there is much objective evidence in physics. However, they cannot interact with mental entities (such as thoughts, experiences etc.); otherwise, category mistake will be made.
> But Science is unaware of the ontological existence of any mind and thoughts /experience? Has it ever empirically detected any mind/thoughts/experiences? So how do you state that mind/thoughts do interact with the matter/e.m energy?
> First, you should define the parameters of each category and ways how it is distinguished from the other category?
>  
> In Sāṅkhya, the interaction between Puruṣa (in either parts or whole, the experiencer) 
> You are repeatedly making the same mistake that experience is the Purusha. Experience is not the Purusha or cosmic consciousness but it is the soul which is the image of the cosmic consciousness in Prakriti or Chitta to be more precise in the Causal body of the same pattern in the water in a pond at earth, the Sun cast its image. Any interaction of the image of Sun in the water in pond WITH any other external system at earth will not affect. Similarly, even by conservatism if it is agreed that for the localized consciousness ( soul) to experience some thought/experience, some interaction is required, that interaction will be between the image (soul) and the external system of thought.experience COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS OR PURUSHA WILL REMAIN IMMUNE FROM THAT INTERACTION.
> In my previous email also, I had highlighted this issue but you kept silent.
> and Moola Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, and empowerment. It does not matter if Puruṣa (CC) is ubiquitous or not and soul is localized consciousness or not.
> No, this is essential that both the interacting entities should be divisible. If one entity is indivisible infinite, how will you specify which of its parts are involved in any interaction? That is the whole
> problem in defining the interaction between space and matter  particles. So far scientists are not able to define the interaction between space and matter particles in the absence of space having any discrete quantum particles.
>  I think that it is now time to have an agreement that we disagree. 
> Yes, of course, we disagree but we can try to realize where are at missing in our understanding. I have highlighted two issues wherein you seem to be missing in the correct understanding.
> i) The concept of category mistake though in nature there is nothing like the category mistake.
> ii) Invoking an external interactional mechanism for the manifestation of a feature in a system when that feature is a non-emergent fundamental feature ( already existing) of that system
> There is no magic or miracle that Puruṣa or its derivatives/components can watch, experience, empower, and/or communicate with Prakṛti or its components/derivatives.
> The fact is that the whole fundamental existence of cosmic consciousness is a magic for science since it is beyond all the Laws of the Science. It is NOT that the cosmic consciousness may be governed by the Laws of the Science but it is the Laws of the Science which have emerged out from the cosmic consciousness. Therefore, any attempt to understand the cosmic consciousness by the known Laws of Science is going to lead to wrong conclusions
>  If you like you can discuss with other colleagues who know what “interaction” means and what its implications are, such as if there is no interaction then it is “isolation” and hence no experience, no empowerment and no communication between them.
>
> Your aforesaid arguments are applicable to physical realm ONLY and that too between two discrete entities and not between one discrete entity like matter and another a continuous indivisible entity like space. Leave alone the cosmic consciousness, these arguments are not applicable even to the Astral realm of nature which is physical. I always mark my messages to other interesting participants in the group to invite their views.
> Regards.
> Vinod Sehgal
>
>  
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 8:56 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Vinod ji,
>> Thanks.
>> The key point, which you are failing to grasp, is that the "awareness" is the intrinsic nature of the consciousness and for becoming aware of any entity/phenomenon, it need not enter into any other interaction/mechanism. Awareness is not an emergent/created phenomenon in the consciousness. For example, when you are awake, for becoming awake, you need not enter into any other process/mechanism since you are already awake.
>>  
>> How an E.M. field and a matter particle like an electron belong to the same group when one is localized matter and other is a ubiquitous field? They interact and how there is no category mistake? 
>>  
>> Anyhow, examples of e.m field/gravitational field and their interaction with particles are not applicable to the cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti since these fields belong to the Physical realm and mechanisms/Laws of the physical world are not applicable to even the astral world (Realm of tanmātras -- a realm of subtle physicality) let alone cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti. Your problem in thinking has been that you are not able to think beyond the Laws/mechanisms of the Physical world.
>>  
>> Your above quote is self-contradictory. If awareness is inherent/fundamental/intrinsic to the consciousness, how and why it should require any interaction. This will amount to forcibly bringing in the interaction when awareness is already existing in the consciousness.
>>  
>> Where is the contradiction? If Shabda and Prāṇa exist in the cosmic consciousness by its very nature (like that of awareness), why it should interact with the Moola Prakriti? If Shabda and Prāṇa are being manifested in Moola Prakriti Due the very presence of the cosmic consciousness, creation of Shabda and Prāṇa will amount to a fundamental/inherent phenomenon in Moola Prakriti without any actual interaction.
>>  
>> One more thing, which you fail to comprehend, is that for an actual interaction between two entities, both the entities should be discrete and divisible. Cosmic consciousness is NOT a discrete, divisible finite entity. Therefore, even if you would like to have the interaction of the cosmic consciousness and that of the Moola Prakriti, the same is not feasible.
>>  
>> If you do not agree with the above view, please explain the interaction of discrete matter particles and indivisible space (if it is treated as continuous).
>>
>> Vimal
>>
>> To maintain wakefulness, there is constant interaction in ARAS system as per neuroscience of wakefulness. The same goes for any type of awareness.
>>  
>> In western classification, since fields (such as EM and gravitational field), particles (such as an electron), and waves are (non-mental) physical entities, they are in the same major group; so they can interact without making category mistake; there is much objective evidence in physics. However, they cannot interact with mental entities (such as thoughts, experiences etc.); otherwise, category mistake will be made.
>>  
>> In Sāṅkhya, the interaction between Puruṣa (in either parts or whole, the experiencer) and Moola Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, and empowerment. It does not matter if Puruṣa (CC) is ubiquitous or not and soul is localized consciousness or not. I think that it is now time to have an agreement that we disagree. There is no magic or miracle that Puruṣa or its derivatives/components can watch, experience, empower, and/or communicate with Prakṛti or its components/derivatives. If you like you can discuss with other colleagues who know what “interaction” means and what its implications are, such as if there is no interaction then it is “isolation” and hence no experience, no empowerment and no communication between them.
>>  
>> Kind regards,
>> Rām
>> ------------------------------ ----------------------------
>> Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
>> Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
>> Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
>> 25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
>> Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
>> rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home
>> https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 
>> Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
>>
>> On Monday, 31 July 2017 10:27 PM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Respected Dr. Ram,
>> Thanks.
>> I strongly disagree because you are making totally illogical and impossible argument. The interaction between Puruṣa (either in parts or whole) and Moola Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, empowerment. If there is no interaction, then both are isolated. Fields (such as ubiquitous ZPF, EM, or gravitational field) can interact with particles without making category mistake if interaction is between two entities of the same group. You have two contradicting views on Prana and Shabda; they are parts of  Puruṣa vs. parts of Moola Prakṛti; they are certainly not third independent entities. In any case, the Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛtiare of from different groups, their interaction is certainly a category mistake and is forbidden. In my view, any kind of awareness by soul/self (even if awareness is fundamental and inherent in soul) needs interaction with the objects it is aware of. Therefore, in my view, the association and category mistake problems of Sāṅkhyaremains. To sum up, let us agree that we disagree and let readers to decide.
>>
>> Sehgal: The key point which you are failing to grasp is that the "awareness" is the very intrinsic nature of the consciousness and for becoming aware of any entity/phenomenon, it need not enter into any other interaction/mechanism.  Awareness is not an emergent/created phenomenon in the consciousness. For example, when you are awake, for becoming awake, you need not enter into any other process/mechanism since you are already awake.
>>
>> Fields (such as ubiquitous ZPF, EM, or gravitational field) can interact with particles without making category mistake if interaction is between two entities of the same group.
>> How an e.m field and a matter particle like an electron belong to the same group when one is localized matter and other is a ubiquitous field? They interact and how there is no category mistake? 
>> Anyhow, examples of e.m field/gravitational field and their interaction with particles are not applicable to the cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti since these fields belong to the Physical realm and mechanisms/Laws of the physical world are not applicable to even the Astral world ( Realm of tanmaatras -- a realm of subtle physicality) let alone cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti. Your problem in thinking has been that you are not able to think beyond the Laws/mechanisms of the Physical world.
>>
>> In my view, any kind of awareness by soul/self (even if awareness is fundamental and inherent in soul) needs interaction with the objects it is aware of. 
>>
>> Your above quote is self-contradictory. If awareness is inherent/fundamental/intrinsic to the consciousness, how and why it should require any interaction. This will amount to forcibly bringing in the interaction when awareness is already existing in the consciousness.
>> You have two contradicting views on Prana and Shabda; they are parts of  Puruṣa vs. parts of Moola Prakṛti; they are certainly not third independent entities
>>
>> Where is the contradiction? If Shabda and Prana exist in the cosmic Consciousness by its very nature ( like that of awareness), why it should interact with the Moola Prakriti? If Shbada and Prana are being manifested in Moola Prakriti Due the very presence of the cosmic consciousness, creation of Shabda and Prana will amount to a fundamental/inherent phenomenon in Moola Prakriti without any actual interaction.
>> ______________________________ ______________________________ ______One more thing which you fail to comprehend is that for an actual interaction between two entities, both the entitities should be discrete and divisible. Cosmnic consciousness is NOT a discrete, divisible finite enetity. So even if you would like to have the interaction of the cosmic consciousness and taht of the Moola Prakriti, the same is not faesible.
>> If you don't agree with the above view, please explain the interaction of discrete matter particles and indivisible space ( if it is treated as continuous).
>> Regards.
>> Vinod sehgal
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Vinod ji,
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Sehgal (31 July 2017)
>>
>> Not necessary that for the creation of Shabda and Prana, Puruṣa (Cosmic consciousness) may have the actual interaction with the Moola Prakriti. Cosmic consciousness is a HOLISTIC INDIVISIBLE IN FINITE entity while Mool Prakriti is a DISCRETE DIVISIBLE entity. For interaction, actual communication, as is normally interpreted in the physical sciences, it is some parts of the Cosmic Consciousness which should have interaction with some parts of the Moola Prakriti. However since the cosmic consciousness is PARTLESS, INDIVISIBLE, HOLISTIC INFINITE ONE, it can't interact, the way you interpret the interaction, even if you want to forcibly want to create an interaction. Then there are two views on the manifestation of Prana and Shabda in Moola Prakriti. The first view states that this is by the very nature of the cosmic consciousness (without any need for any mechanism in the physical sense we understand), Prana and Shabda manifest in the Moola Prakriti. The second view is that Prana and Shabda exist in the very womb of the cosmic consciousness and emerge it out in the Moola Prakriti. In either of these views, no need for interaction in the physical sense arises. Then Most important fact has been that in the state of Samādhi, both Prana and Shabda are actually observable/experienceable. This does not leave the scope for any other interpretation. The point which you are missing is that it is not the cosmic consciousness which empowers Moola Prakrit, but it is the Prana and Shabda  which empowers Moola Prakriti Then how Prana and Shabda manifests in MooLa Prakriti is indicated above. […] I argue that there is no need for any interaction between the soul and final signal of thoughts in Chitta since awareness is the very fundamental nature of the consciousness of the soul.
>>
>> Vimal
>>
>> I strongly disagree because you are making totally illogical and impossible argument. The interaction between Puruṣa (either in parts or whole) and Moola Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, empowerment. If there is no interaction, then both are isolated. Fields (such as ubiquitous ZPF, EM, or gravitational field) can interact with particles without making category mistake if interaction is between two entities of the same group. You have two contradicting views on Prana and Shabda; they are parts of  Puruṣa vs. parts of Moola Prakṛti; they are certainly not third independent entities. In any case, the Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛti are of from different groups, their interaction is certainly a category mistake and is forbidden. In my view, any kind of awareness by soul/self (even if awareness is fundamental and inherent in soul) needs interaction with the objects it is aware of. Therefore, in my view, the association and category mistake problems of Sāṅkhya remains. To sum up, let us agree that we disagree and let readers to decide.
>>  
>> Kind regards,
>> Rām
>> ------------------------------ ----------------------------
>> Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
>> Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
>> Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
>> 25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
>> Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
>> rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home
>> https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 
>> Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
>

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

Sehgal: [1] We have a very large universe with space extending to almost infinities. Definitely, there will be large swathes in the universe in which there will be no matter, energy, radiations (ignoring any vacuum energy). Will there be no existence of space in these swathes of the universe? Is it not an obvious observation?

 

[2] The experience of darkness is not like other SEs. In other SEs, a signal of some physical energy emanates from the stimuli but in the experience of the darkness, none of the signals of any physical energy can emanate from the darkness. It is because of an absence of light stimulus, which causes a chain of interactive signals from retina to cortex. This could be that with darkness or the absence of light, a chain of interactive signals might be setting in motion from the retina to cortex but we can’t say that this experience has resulted from any interaction between the darkness and the brain. In my other message, I have clarified that there is no doubt that with darkness, some NCCs might be setting up but we can't say that these NCCs are due to any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain. The point which I am trying to focus, emphasize and re-emphasize is that despite the absence of any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain, darkness is experienced by us. We can't say that NCCs start building up due to darkness (or the absence of light) since no signal can emanate out from the darkness (or absence of light).The issue which we are discussing is the point of direct interaction between a "thing" to be experienced and brain/mind and consciousness. If there is no exogenous signal from darkness, then we can't say that experience of darkness is due to direct interaction between the darkness and brain/mind. As such, it can’t be treated like other SEs like the view of a red rose. When the experience of the darkness is not akin to other normal SEs, we can't say if this is an SE at all. But then we can't say that this is due to the interaction between darkness and the brain. This proves that experiences of many things can be accomplished even in the absence of direct interaction between those "things: and the body/brain. However, consciousness experiences everything in the absence of any interaction between it and the finally processed signal of "that thing" due to the pre-existing non-emergent Fundamental Field of Awareness. You need to understand the fundamental non-emergent awareness of the holistic consciousness as placed beyond space and time. You also need to understand that interaction is required for an emergent phenomenon as occurring in space/time. Awareness is not an emergent phenomenon as happening in space/time. Only when you will fully grasp these issues then you will be able to get rid of the “interactionalism” in the experiences of anything by the consciousness.

 

Vimal: [1] Obviously scientists did not observe such large swathes. Therefore, it would be simply a speculation. If you like, you can also speculate that human beings might be flying somewhere in the universe, and there are astral, causal, and manifested consciousness worlds such as Indra Loka (world), Satya or Brahma Loka, Vishnu Loka, and so on. You can fantasize anything you want, such as an experiencer does not interact with objects and still able to experience them in some fictitious Loka. It is a free world and you have complete freedom to imagine anything and say this is the fundamental truth because you can observe it in some Samādhi (SS/NS) state even though you have not yet attained this state.

 

[2] You arguments are totally illogical. Darkness is NOT an object, not a thing, and not a stimulus in the real physical world out there. It is simply due to the lack of light signal in pitch dark. Darkness is simply a visual SE that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE. Therefore, I disagree with you that an experiencer can experience an external object without interacting with it.

 

My colleagues Profs. Roman (Poznanski) and Alfredo (Pereira Jr.) will agree with me on the topic of interactionalism. If you like you can discuss with them further (if they have time!).

 

I think now that we MUST agree that we have a disagreement on this topic and there is no point in this endless debate.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Monday, 7 August 2017 7:30 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected Dr. Ram,

Thanks.

My comments in blue and red font text after your comments.

I am sorry, please ignore my 3 previous emails because they were not clear.

I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding of Sāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna,  Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya (or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) 

Swami Yogeshawaranand Paramhans had not written any interpretation on Saankhya Kaarika. Whatever, he has written in his books is based purely on his personal experiences in the state of Samadhi. While articulating his experiences, he has used the terminology of both Saankhya and Upnishadas.The personal experiences in the state of Samaadhi are akin to  empirical

experiments in the objective scientific methodology and such

experiments/experiences are not treated as interpretations.

seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.

It is true that my thinking/understanding has largely been moulded

by the findings of Swami YogeshawaraNand Paramhans but this does not mean that this is the only source which affected by thinking/understanding. During the past many years by interaction with different sources, input from multi sources contributed in developing and molding my thinking.

Some times, even a simple clue from a source can help in developing a whole full fledged idea or hypothesis. So in my messages, some ideas are directly from some specific sources and some are as inferred/developed by me. This happens with everyone.

For example, you observed in neuroscience that there is a relation of correspondence between SEs(mental aspects, conscious experiences)  and the NCCs ( Physical aspects). Taking a cue from this observation, you speculated that all the matter and energy particles of the universe have some mental aspect ( consciousness) which is inseparable with their physical aspects. However, neither there is any empirical evidence to this effect not any of the Eastern metaphysics of Vishisht Adavita or Kashmiri Shaivism mentions that

Brahman ( Cosmic Consciousness) descends down from the primordial stage in discrete particle formatsl like the physical elementary particles. Furthermore, neither the existence of

the Brahman is supported by the subjective experience of any one in the state of samaadhi in any of spiritual tradition.

Brahman ( 

Sehgal (6 August 2017)

The following view is based on my understanding of(Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya.

These views are not based purely on the findings of Swamy Yogeshawaranand Paramhans Saraswati. There is a contribution from diverse sources and some views have been inferred/developed by myself.

[1] The Field of Awareness, as arising out of the consciousness, is not compared with the one as that of an electric charge or the magnetic field. The electric and magnetic fields are the emergent/derived fields and they act on each point in the space. In other words, the electric field and magnetic field remain present in each point of space/time. However, the Field of Awareness had never emerged out of any other thing thru some mechanism. It always existed as such, whether before or after the creation or during the period universe remains in the manifested stage. Further, it is not that the field of the Awareness remains present in each point of space/time but it is the space and time which emerges out from the Field of Awareness and each and every point of space/time exist in that Field. So any comparison of the field of awareness with those of physical fields like that of electric or magnetic one is ill conceived and arguments as applicable to the physical electric/magnetic fields are not applicable to the Field of Awareness. I had used the term Field of Awareness to make it more understandable on the lines of the physical fields.

The closest comparison of the Field of Awareness, which comes to my mind, is that of the space. The primary function of the space is to provide a base, a medium for the existence and operation (motion) to the distinct physical objects. When space fulfills these two functions viz. providing base and medium for the motion, space do no interact with the physical objects since these functions are always self-evident in space. Similarly, awareness is always self-evident, self-manifested in the consciousness and it need not interact with the final signal of thought/experiences.

I think that you are extending the logic of the mechanism of the interaction between two physical entities to the consciousness and awareness but forgetting that awareness is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute/ nature of the consciousness on the same pattern providing the basis for existence and medium for motion is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute/nature of space.

 

[2] Again by comparing the field of awareness with the physical field like a quantum field, you are arriving at wrong inferences/conclusion. The Field of the Awareness, unlike some physical quantum field, is not a quantum field. The cosmic consciousness and Field of Awareness as fundamentally innate with it is an infinite, indivisible, a Holistic One and it is not located in space/time, but it is space/time, which emerges out such Field of Awareness. It is not that each and every point of the Field of Awareness (in fact, there are no points/parts in this field due to it being holistic infinite one) is located in each and every point of space/time BUT it is the each and every point of the space/time which is located in the infinite holistic Field of Awareness. Therefore, any attempt to understand the cosmic consciousness or Field of Awareness from the conventional logic as applicable to the mechanism as applicable to the physical entities is bound to lead to wrong inferences/conclusions.

 

[3]  It is separable from the ontological existential point of view, remain present in Prakriti and all its derivatives but for having awareness of the Prakriti, it need not interact with Prakriti due to awareness being its fundamental and innate nature, as elaborated in the foregoing Paragraphs. Again, the analogy of the space and physical objects will help you to understand this point of view. Space remains present in all the physical objects but it is separable from the physical objects and for its fundamental functions viz providing base for the existence of the physical objects and medium for their operation (motion), it need not interact with the physical objects. On the same pattern, consciousness( having fundamental awareness) always remain present in Prakriti and its derivatives and yet it is separate from Prakriti and for having awareness of Prakriti and its derivatives, it need not interact with the Prakriti and its derivatives ( due to awareness being a fundamental and innate nature/attribute of the consciousness). Actually, it is wrong to state that consciousness/awareness remain present in Prakriti or its derivatives. It is the Prakriti and its derivatives, which reside/exist in the consciousness or Field of Awareness. Please try to come out from the logic of physicality as applicable to the physical systems. Please try to understand from the analogy of space and physical objects as to how Prakriti and its entire derivatives can exist in Consciousness/Field of Awareness yet they can be separate and for the consciousness to be aware of the Prakriti, it need not interact with it. That is why I send copies of my messages to other people also (6 as indicated above) but no one has commented. I thought they will also provide their views but so far, none has done so. I request you to send our debate/conversation to other people also.

 

[4] I am not denying the physiological changes/process undergoing in the eyes/body/brain during darkness and sleep/dreams. What I had been emphasizing and somehow you are not directly responding that even though our consciousness can have the awareness of the darkness but no actual physical interaction takes place between darkness and our brain and mind, leave alone the consciousness. I had provided this analogy of the awareness of darkness in the absence of any actual interaction to highlight the point that consciousness/ awareness can have the awareness of the finally processed signal of thoughts/experiences without any interaction with these signals.

If you still subscribe to the view that interaction is necessary for the awareness of the consciousness, please address this very issue as to how the darkness is awarized by the consciousness and yet no interaction take place even between the darkness and brain/body. Here I am speaking of the direct interaction between the darkness and the brain/body and mind and NOT of any physiological changes/process in the brain. Those processes/changes occur otherwise also in the brain in the absence of the darkness.

Vimal

Can space exist by itself without matter or energy around? As per  Sten Odenwald, “No. Experiments continue to show that there is no 'space' that stands apart from space-time itself...no arena in which matter, energy and gravity operate which is not affected by matter, energy and gravity. General relativity tells us that what we call space is just another feature of the gravitational field of the universe, so space and space-time can and do not exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field. This is not speculation, but sound observation.”

We have a very very large universe with space extending to almost infinities. Definitely, there will be large swathes in the universe in which there will be no matter, energy, radiations ( ignoring any vacuum energy). Will there be no existence of space in these swathes of the universe? Is it not an obvious observation?

 

Darkness is a SE experienced by the self like any other SE and has neural correlate(s).

The experience of darkness is not like other SEs. In other SEs, signal of some physical energy emanates from the stimuli but in the experience of the darkness, none of the signals of any physical energy can emanate from the darkness

 It is because of an absence of light stimulus, which causes a chain of interactive signals from retina to cortex.

This could be that with darkness or the absence of light, a chain of interactive signals might be setting in motion from the retina to cortex but we can;t say that this experience has resulted from any interaction between the darkness and the brain. In my other message, I have clarified that there is no doubt that with darkness, some NCCs might be setting up but we can't say that these NCCs are due to any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain. The point which I am trying to focus, emphasize and re-emphasize is that despite the absence of any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain, darkness is experienced by us.

We can't say that NCCs start building up due to darkness ( or the absence of light) since no signal can emanate out from the darkness ( or absence of light).

The issue which we are discussing is the point of direct interaction between a "thing" to be experienced and brain/mind and consciousness.

 This leads to SE of darkness thru the matching and selection mechanism of the eDAM using interaction between the endogenous (because there is no exogenous/external signal from an object in pitch dark)

If there is no exogenous signal from darkness, then we can't say that experience of darkness is due to direct interaction between the darkness and brain/mind. As such, it can;t be treated like other SEs like the viewal of a red rose.

 feed forward signals and cognitive feedback signal. The SE darkness is selected from the SEs stored in LTM by the selection mechanism and is experienced by the self.

When the experience of the darkness is not akin to other normal SEs, we can't say if this is an SE at all.

 My colleagues agree on interaction between experiencer/self and objects for a SE.

I request your colleagues to place their comments on the subject

 This is a testable hypothesis by an easy experiment by just reducing the intensity of light signal from high value to zero and recording neural activities using EEG/fMRI.

But then we can't say that this is due to the interaction between darkness and the brain. This proves that experiences of many things can be accomplished even in the absence of direct interaction between those "things: and the body/brain. However, consciousness experiences everything in the absence of any interaction between it and the finally processed signal of "that thing" due to the pre-existing non-emergent  Fundamental Field of Awareness.

 

You do not need to give me any example. I fully understand your point of view. However, unfortunately it is 100% incorrect hypothesis that the interaction between an experiencer/self and object is not needed for experiencing it. 

Instead of making any one sided emphatic claim on any issue, you should discuss based upon some logical arguments, observations, and evidence. You need to understand the fundamental non-emergent awareness of the holistic consciousness as placed beyond space and time. You also need to understand that interaction is required for an emergent phenomenon as occurring in space/time.

Awareness is not an emergent phenomenon as happening in space/time. Only when you will fully grasp these issues that you will be able to get rid of the "interactionalism" in the experiences of anything by the consciousness.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:04 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

I am sorry, please ignore my 3 previous emails because they were not clear.

I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding of Sāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna,  Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya (or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.

Sehgal (6 August 2017)

The following view is based on my understanding of (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya.

[1] The Field of Awareness, as arising out of the consciousness, is not compared with the one as that of an electric charge or the magnetic field. The electric and magnetic fields are the emergent/derived fields and they act on each point in the space. In other words, the electric field and magnetic field remain present in each point of space/time. However, the Field of Awareness had never emerged out of any other thing thru some mechanism. It always existed as such, whether before or after the creation or during the period universe remains in the manifested stage. Further, it is not that the field of the Awareness remains present in each point of space/time but it is the space and time which emerges out from the Field of Awareness and each and every point of space/time exist in that Field. So any comparison of the field of awareness with those of physical fields like that of electric or magnetic one is ill conceived and arguments as applicable to the physical electric/magnetic fields are not applicable to the Field of Awareness. I had used the term Field of Awareness to make it more understandable on the lines of the physical fields.

The closest comparison of the Field of Awareness, which comes to my mind, is that of the space. The primary function of the space is to provide a base, a medium for the existence and operation (motion) to the distinct physical objects. When space fulfills these two functions viz. providing base and medium for the motion, space do no interact with the physical objects since these functions are always self-evident in space. Similarly, awareness is always self-evident, self-manifested in the consciousness and it need not interact with the final signal of thought/experiences.

I think that you are extending the logic of the mechanism of the interaction between two physical entities to the consciousness and awareness but forgetting that awareness is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute/ nature of the consciousness on the same pattern providing the basis for existence and medium for motion is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute/nature of space.

 

[2] Again by comparing the field of awareness with the physical field like a quantum field, you are arriving at wrong inferences/conclusion. The Field of the Awareness, unlike some physical quantum field, is not a quantum field. The cosmic consciousness and Field of Awareness as fundamentally innate with it is an infinite, indivisible, a Holistic One and it is not located in space/time, but it is space/time, which emerges out such Field of Awareness. It is not that each and every point of the Field of Awareness (in fact, there are no points/parts in this field due to it being holistic infinite one) is located in each and every point of space/time BUT it is the each and every point of the space/time which is located in the infinite holistic Field of Awareness. Therefore, any attempt to understand the cosmic consciousness or Field of Awareness from the conventional logic as applicable to the mechanism as applicable to the physical entities is bound to lead to wrong inferences/conclusions.

 

[3]  It is separable from the ontological existential point of view, remain present in Prakriti and all its derivatives but for having awareness of the Prakriti, it need not interact with Prakriti due to awareness being its fundamental and innate nature, as elaborated in the foregoing Paragraphs. Again, the analogy of the space and physical objects will help you to understand this point of view. Space remains present in all the physical objects but it is separable from the physical objects and for its fundamental functions viz providing base for the existence of the physical objects and medium for their operation (motion), it need not interact with the physical objects. On the same pattern, consciousness( having fundamental awareness) always remain present in Prakriti and its derivatives and yet it is separate from Prakriti and for having awareness of Prakriti and its derivatives, it need not interact with the Prakriti and its derivatives ( due to awareness being a fundamental and innate nature/attribute of the consciousness). Actually, it is wrong to state that consciousness/awareness remain present in Prakriti or its derivatives. It is the Prakriti and its derivatives, which reside/exist in the consciousness or Field of Awareness. Please try to come out from the logic of physicality as applicable to the physical systems. Please try to understand from the analogy of space and physical objects as to how Prakriti and its entire derivatives can exist in Consciousness/Field of Awareness yet they can be separate and for the consciousness to be aware of the Prakriti, it need not interact with it. That is why I send copies of my messages to other people also (6 as indicated above) but no one has commented. I thought they will also provide their views but so far, none has done so. I request you to send our debate/conversation to other people also.

 

[4] I am not denying the physiological changes/process undergoing in the eyes/body/brain during darkness and sleep/dreams. What I had been emphasizing and somehow you are not directly responding that even though our consciousness can have the awareness of the darkness but no actual physical interaction takes place between darkness and our brain and mind, leave alone the consciousness. I had provided this analogy of the awareness of darkness in the absence of any actual interaction to highlight the point that consciousness/ awareness can have the awareness of the finally processed signal of thoughts/experiences without any interaction with these signals.

If you still subscribe to the view that interaction is necessary for the awareness of the consciousness, please address this very issue as to how the darkness is awarized by the consciousness and yet no interaction take place even between the darkness and brain/body. Here I am speaking of the direct interaction between the darkness and the brain/body and mind and NOT of any physiological changes/process in the brain. Those processes/changes occur otherwise also in the brain in the absence of the darkness.

Vimal

Can space exist by itself without matter or energy around? As per  Sten Odenwald, “No. Experiments continue to show that there is no 'space' that stands apart from space-time itself...no arena in which matter, energy and gravity operate which is not affected by matter, energy and gravity. General relativity tells us that what we call space is just another feature of the gravitational field of the universe, so space and space-time can and do not exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field. This is not speculation, but sound observation.”

 

Darkness is a SE experienced by the self like any other SE and has neural correlate(s). It is because of an absence of light stimulus, which causes a chain of interactive signals from retina to cortex. This leads to SE of darkness thru the matching and selection mechanism of the eDAM using interaction between the endogenous (because there is no exogenous/external signal from an object in pitch dark) feed forward signals and cognitive feedback signal. The SE darkness is selected from the SEs stored in LTM by the selection mechanism and is experienced by the self. My colleagues agree on interaction between experiencer/self and objects for a SE. This is a testable hypothesis by an easy experiment by just reducing the intensity of light signal from high value to zero and recording neural activities using EEG/fMRI.

 

You do not need to give me any example. I fully understand your point of view. However, unfortunately it is 100% incorrect hypothesis that the interaction between an experiencer/self and object is not needed for experiencing it. 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

...

[Message clipped]  

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

Sehgal: The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations is based upon some scientific arguments and not mere speculation. If we trust that cosmic inflation and BB theory of the creation of the universe is correct, there is all the possibility that there may be many swathes of the universe having NIL matter and energy/radiations. The BB was followed immediately with a superluminal expansion of space but matter and energy within space cannot travel more than the speed of light. In other words, at the time of the cosmic inflation of space, matter/energy expanding with it might not have kept pace with the expansion of the space. This will result in the creation of some territories of space devoid of any matter/energy.

 

Vimal: As per Wikipedia (as of 8 August 2017), “In physical cosmology, cosmic inflation, cosmological inflation, or just inflation, is a theory of the exponential expansion of space in the early universe. The inflationary epoch lasted from 10⁻³⁶ seconds after the conjectured Big Bang singularity to sometime between 10⁻³³ and 10⁻³² seconds after the singularity. Following the inflationary period, the Universe continues to expand, but at a less rapid rate.^[1]”

 

How big was the universe at the end of inflation? As per (FrankH, 2012), “So given a size of the currently observable universe, we can ask how big was that volume at any particular time in the past. According to this paper at the end of inflation the universe's scale factor was about 10⁻³⁰ smaller than it is today, so that would give a diameter for the currently observable universe at the end of inflation of 0.88 millimeters which is approximately the size of a grain of sand (See calculation at WolframAlpha). It is believed that inflation needed to expand the universe by at least a factor of 60 e-foldings (which is a factor of e⁶⁰). So using WolframAlpha again we find that the diameter of the universe before inflation would have been 7.7×10⁻³⁰ meters, which is only about 480,000 Planck lengths.”

 

My understanding is that (a) relativity rejects the existence of space-time independent of matter-energy, (b) cosmic inflation theory does not contradict Relativity theory, and (c) inflation does not contradict the prohibition of faster-than-light speed. Therefore, I disagree with you.

 

Sehgal: Even in the current era, there have been Yogis/Sages who have had the reproducible experiences of the Astral and Causal worlds in a quite vivid manner.

 

Vimal: Can you provide the names, addresses, and phone numbers of such yogis so that we can contact them directly? And/or bring them in this discussion forum to confront our queries. In my view, what they observe are simply their subjective experiences, which have their respective neural correlate(s)/basis.

 

Sehgal: But then we cannot say that this signal has emanated out from the darkness or there has been some actual interaction between the darkness and the brain. [Vimal’s paraphrase of Sehgal’s queries: Individual localized consciousness (soul, self) does not interact with Chitta-signal to experience the physical objects, i.e., Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya do not interact, for example, the experience of darkness, which is a different kind of experience. Moreover, there are problems in the eDAM.]

 

Vimal: You are missing my point again. Darkness is simply a visual SE (like any other SE) that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE.

 

I disagree with your claim: Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya NEVER interact for performing any function or experience or for anything; just the proximity of Puruṣa and Prakṛti is enough, rest is all-automatic. One example is experiencing darkness, which is a different kind of experience.

 

Of course, darkness is a different kind of experience similar to redness is different from grayness or sweetness, but the processing of neural information thru the matching and selection of a specific SE (such as darkness vs. redness) related to SE is similar in their respective NNs as mentioned above.

 

In the eDAM, the “self” is the 1pp-mental aspect of the state of self-related NN. The external objects simply reflect or emit light, which gets converted into neural signals; then self-related signals interact with the object-related signals. Please note that physical signals interact with physical signals to avoid category mistake. A mental entity (such as self) cannot directly interact with a physical entity (such as an external object); otherwise, category mistake will be made. There is no light signal in pitch dark, which has nothing to do with my argument because the interaction is between neural signals, not with physical objects. Please, try to understand this point. That is why your half-knowledge in neuroscience and in the eDAM are causing you such a big problem to the extent you are losing all your credibility.

 

Sāṅkhya makes a serious category mistake. You are forcing that Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya do not interact to avoid category mistake; this is where you are making a big mistake.

 

As far as I am concerned, the dualistic Sāṅkhya is 100% rejected because of its 11 problems whether you like it or not. To save it to some extent, it needs to be converted into a version of dual-aspect monism or that of the eDAM. 

What you call problems in the eDAM is simply your half-knowledge and misunderstanding and misconstruction. If you seriously read my at least the five articles related to 5 components of the eDAM, namely (Vimal, 2008), (Vimal, 2010a), (Vimal, 2013), (Vimal, 2015b), and (Vimal, 2016d),  then I can try helping you with further clarifications. 

Otherwise, it is your choice. In this case, as BMP’s implies, let us agree with humility, tolerance, and compassion for each other that we have disagreement using the concept of “unity in diversity”.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 1:54 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected Dr. Ram,

Thanks.

Sehgal: [1] We have a very large universe with space extending to almost infinities. Definitely, there will be large swathes in the universe in which there will be no matter, energy, radiations (ignoring any vacuum energy). Will there be no existence of space in these swathes of the universe? Is it not an obvious observation?

 

[2] The experience of darkness is not like other SEs. In other SEs, a signal of some physical energy emanates from the stimuli but in the experience of the darkness, none of the signals of any physical energy can emanate from the darkness. It is because of an absence of light stimulus, which causes a chain of interactive signals from retina to cortex. This could be that with darkness or the absence of light, a chain of interactive signals might be setting in motion from the retina to cortex but we can’t say that this experience has resulted from any interaction between the darkness and the brain. In my other message, I have clarified that there is no doubt that with darkness, some NCCs might be setting up but we can't say that these NCCs are due to any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain. The point which I am trying to focus, emphasize and re-emphasize is that despite the absence of any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain, darkness is experienced by us. We can't say that NCCs start building up due to darkness (or the absence of light) since no signal can emanate out from the darkness (or absence of light).The issue which we are discussing is the point of direct interaction between a "thing" to be experienced and brain/mind and consciousness. If there is no exogenous signal from darkness, then we can't say that experience of darkness is due to direct interaction between the darkness and brain/mind. As such, it can’t be treated like other SEs like the view of a red rose. When the experience of the darkness is not akin to other normal SEs, we can't say if this is an SE at all. But then we can't say that this is due to the interaction between darkness and the brain. This proves that experiences of many things can be accomplished even in the absence of direct interaction between those "things: and the body/brain. However, consciousness experiences everything in the absence of any interaction between it and the finally processed signal of "that thing" due to the pre-existing non-emergent Fundamental Field of Awareness. You need to understand the fundamental non-emergent awareness of the holistic consciousness as placed beyond space and time. You also need to understand that interaction is required for an emergent phenomenon as occurring in space/time. Awareness is not an emergent phenomenon as happening in space/time. Only when you will fully grasp these issues then you will be able to get rid of the “interactionalism” in the experiences of anything by the consciousness.

 

Vimal: [1] Obviously scientists did not observe such large swathes. Therefore, it would be simply a speculation.

The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations is based upon some scientific arguments and not mere speculation.  If we trust that cosmic inflation and BB theory of the creation of the universe is correct, there is all the possibility that there may be many swathes of the universe having NIl matter and energy.radiations. The BB was followed immediately with a superluminal expansion of space but matter and energy within space can't travel more than the speed of light. In other words, at the time of the cosmic inflation of space, matter/energy exapnding with it might not have kept pace with the expansion of the space. This will result in creation of some territories of space devoid of any matter/energy.

 If you like, you can also speculate that human beings might be flying somewhere in the universe, and there are astral, causal, and manifested consciousness worlds such as Indra Loka (world), Satya or Brahma Loka, Vishnu Loka, and so on. You can fantasize anything you want, such as an experiencer does not interact with objects and still able to experience them in some fictitious Loka. It is a free world and you have complete freedom to imagine anything and say this is the fundamental truth because you can observe it in some Samādhi(SS/NS) state even though you have not yet attained this state.

Your inference that the astral and causal worlds are the fictitious worlds is based upon your misconception, short understanding, and information and above all arising out from some stubborn and conservative/ superstitious attitude grounded in gross materialism. Even in the current era, there have been Yogis/Sages who have had the reproducible experiences of the Astral and Causal worlds in a quite vivid manner. But there is no way out for a person who is not willing to follow the accounts of such people seriously or wants to reject outrightly the same out of sheer conservatism/superstition.

Furthermore, the existence of the Astral and causal worlds is supported by the spiritual wisdom of past millennia but modern neuroscience is not more than a few decades old.

There are many things in our life which we are unable to experience ourselves personally but this does not imply that we should not agree to the same if they are found to be correct after due logical scrutiny. It is correct that I myself have not the experience of the Astral and causal world in the state of samaadhi but this does not mean that I should not agree to their existence if my long logical scrutiny of the accounts of others, who had such experiences, support the existence of such realm of nature.

Now I take an example wherein you agree to the existence of some things out of your sheer stubborn conservative attitude.

You believe that there is the existence of some mental aspects as inseparable with the physical aspects in all the discrete matter and energy particles in the universe. But kindly examine if this hypothesis is

Supported by any empirical evidence?            NO

Supported  by Samaadhi state experiences      NO

in any spiritual traditions?

Is free from logical inconsistencies?                 NO

Is indicated in any monistic Eastern                 NO

or Western metaphysics?

Yet you trust the existence of some mental aspects in the discrete

matter particles. This is what is called though pretending to be scientific but a stubborn conservative and superstitious attitiude

 

[2] You arguments are totally illogical. Darkness is NOT an object, not a thing, and not a stimulus in the real physical world out there. It is simply due to the lack of light signal in pitch dark.

That is what I have been repeating in the very beginning that there are some things which can be experienced even in the absence of an actual interaction between that "thing" and the brain/mind.

 Darkness is simply a visual SE that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE. Therefore, I disagree with you that an experiencer can experience an external object without interacting with it.

Darkness can't be a visual SE like other normal SEs like the SE of the viewing of a tree. In the case of viewing of a tree, a signal goes from the tree to the brain and NCC is built up. But in the case of darkness, which signals and from where any signal shall emanate and enter the brain for building up of any NCC. I am not discounting the possibility of the ordination of some endogenous signal and built up some NCC when light vanishes but then we can't say that this signal has emanated out from the darkness or there has been some actual interaction between the darkness and the brain

My point had been and which still I am reiterating is that despite the origination of some endogenous signals, darkness is experienced but there is no actual interaction between the darkness and the brain. I may repeat, repeat, I am saying about the actual interaction between the darkness and the brain and not about the origination of any endogenous signal

 

My colleagues Profs. Roman (Poznanski) and Alfredo (Pereira Jr.) will agree with me on the topic of interactionalism. If you like you can discuss with them further (if they have time!).

You may please give my reference to your colleagues and let them discuss the topic if they are really interested. If they can understand well the concept of the non-emergent infinite indivisible Field of Awareness in the fundamental cosmic consciousness, out of space/time. they will also agree to the concept of  

non-interactionism wherein the consciousness becomes aware of all the thoughts/experiences without the actual interaction. But for this they will be required to come out of the physical mindset of the interaction between two physical entities

 

I think now that we MUST agree that we have a disagreement on this topic and there is no point in this endless debate.

Yes, I also agree that we have the disagreement. How can we agree when you are not willing to understand the concept of the ever existing, ever manifested innate awareness of the fundamental cosmic consciousness out of space/time with an open mindset?

Still, I tried my best to make you understand this very essential nature/feature of the cosmic consciousness by elaborating a lot and also by giving a no of analogies.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

 

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:19 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

Sehgal: [1] We have a very large universe with space extending to almost infinities. Definitely, there will be large swathes in the universe in which there will be no matter, energy, radiations (ignoring any vacuum energy). Will there be no existence of space in these swathes of the universe? Is it not an obvious observation?

 

[2] The experience of darkness is not like other SEs. In other SEs, a signal of some physical energy emanates from the stimuli but in the experience of the darkness, none of the signals of any physical energy can emanate from the darkness. It is because of an absence of light stimulus, which causes a chain of interactive signals from retina to cortex. This could be that with darkness or the absence of light, a chain of interactive signals might be setting in motion from the retina to cortex but we can’t say that this experience has resulted from any interaction between the darkness and the brain. In my other message, I have clarified that there is no doubt that with darkness, some NCCs might be setting up but we can't say that these NCCs are due to any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain. The point which I am trying to focus, emphasize and re-emphasize is that despite the absence of any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain, darkness is experienced by us. We can't say that NCCs start building up due to darkness (or the absence of light) since no signal can emanate out from the darkness (or absence of light).The issue which we are discussing is the point of direct interaction between a "thing" to be experienced and brain/mind and consciousness. If there is no exogenous signal from darkness, then we can't say that experience of darkness is due to direct interaction between the darkness and brain/mind. As such, it can’t be treated like other SEs like the view of a red rose. When the experience of the darkness is not akin to other normal SEs, we can't say if this is an SE at all. But then we can't say that this is due to the interaction between darkness and the brain. This proves that experiences of many things can be accomplished even in the absence of direct interaction between those "things: and the body/brain. However, consciousness experiences everything in the absence of any interaction between it and the finally processed signal of "that thing" due to the pre-existing non-emergent Fundamental Field of Awareness. You need to understand the fundamental non-emergent awareness of the holistic consciousness as placed beyond space and time. You also need to understand that interaction is required for an emergent phenomenon as occurring in space/time. Awareness is not an emergent phenomenon as happening in space/time. Only when you will fully grasp these issues then you will be able to get rid of the “interactionalism” in the experiences of anything by the consciousness.

 

Vimal: [1] Obviously scientists did not observe such large swathes. Therefore, it would be simply a speculation. If you like, you can also speculate that human beings might be flying somewhere in the universe, and there are astral, causal, and manifested consciousness worlds such as Indra Loka (world), Satya or Brahma Loka, Vishnu Loka, and so on. You can fantasize anything you want, such as an experiencer does not interact with objects and still able to experience them in some fictitious Loka. It is a free world and you have complete freedom to imagine anything and say this is the fundamental truth because you can observe it in some Samādhi (SS/NS) state even though you have not yet attained this state.

 

[2] You arguments are totally illogical. Darkness is NOT an object, not a thing, and not a stimulus in the real physical world out there. It is simply due to the lack of light signal in pitch dark. Darkness is simply a visual SE that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE. Therefore, I disagree with you that an experiencer can experience an external object without interacting with it.

 

My colleagues Profs. Roman (Poznanski) and Alfredo (Pereira Jr.) will agree with me on the topic of interactionalism. If you like you can discuss with them further (if they have time!).

 

I think now that we MUST agree that we have a disagreement on this topic and there is no point in this endless debate.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://s ites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/ Home

https://www.researchgate.net/p rofile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal  

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

Sehgal: When the consciousness of a normal person in the wakeful state can see with the help of brain and astral mind and consciousness of a Yogi can see in Samādhi with the astral mind only WITHOUT brain, why the consciousness of God should not be able to see?

 

Vimal: That is what my query is: what color God experiences when He looks at a ripe tomato? Similarly, what color a yogi experience when he looks at a ripe tomato in Samādhi state with the astral mind only WITHOUT brain? Please compare it with that in a wakeful conscious state with his brain intact.

 

As you wrote, this is your framework based on your many years of contemplation of various sources (mostly from Swami YN and Sāṅkhya because you are using their terms). However, with humility and respect, I disagree with you.

 

In my view, the term OOO God (or Brahman) as you understand is invented by yogis. Of course, all entities are the various manifestations of the unmanifested Brahman (the primal entity). However, in the eDAM, the highest manifestation of Brahman is in us at SS/NS states. Therefore, the eDAM concludes that God is inside us, which you also agree. In other words, this is the only agreement we have.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

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[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Vinod and Vimal,

If you forgive me for jumping into  your debate, in this case I agree with Vinod that,

“The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations”.

GR just says that matter curves (distorts) space time. It does not say that there can be no space without matter or radiation. In fact de Sitter universe keeps on expanding with no matter, just a positive cosmological constant. Forget about models of inflation, even now, there is huge amount of interstellar space where there is practically no or extremely little matter or energy. Interstellar space is practically vacuum e.g. you may run into a molecule every few miles! It is possible that I may have  misunderstood your disagreement!

Best Regards.

Kashyap

--

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Kashyap,

 

Thanks for the information. This means that the large swathes of space are like vacuum field with quantum fluctuations (QFs), in analogy to the usual vacuum field with QFs.

 

Either way is fine with my argument that, in Sāṅkhya, (a) Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛti must interact for Cosmic Fire or Big Bang, and (b) localized Puruṣa (soul, self) must interact with Chitta (Prakṛti) to experience objects.

 

In the eDAM, the self is the 1pp-mental aspect of a self-related state of a mind-brain system, which has neural correlates/basis (such as cortical and subcortical midline structures) as its inseparable 3pp-physical aspect.

For the self to experience a specific SE, such as redness (or darkness), there is the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of the interaction/matching between (i) exogenous or endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a stimulus (or a lack of any external light stimulus) and (ii) cognitive FB (feedback) signals. If the matching is successful, the "self" selects the specific matched SE from the LTM and experiences it. For detail, please see (Vimal, 2010a). In any case, interaction is always involved. 

Vinod claims that interaction is not needed. What is your opinion? 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

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[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Vimal,

You and Vinod have interesting debate going on. But the fundamental physics is not yet clear on what was the primordial stuff. The general agreement is that there was a very small patch of vacuum just at the time of big bang before inflation started. So some form of space was there. It had probably one unified quantum field. Later on this field was split into a number of fields. If there is just one field in the beginning, you can draw parallel with Brahman. That would be self-interacting. If there are more than one quantum fields before inflation, then surely they will be interacting with each other. There are large number of models, probably one for each physicist working on this!!! Anyway, I do not know what would correspond with  Prakriti and Purush. Laws of nature were of course there in some abstract form. Can you call them Purush and quantum field  Prakrity?

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[Siegfried Bleher]

Dear Kashyap,

 

Very good point—I too feel it is rather early in the game of physics for us to be taking current understanding (i.e. of cosmology or even of Standard Model) into the arena of fundamental nature of consciousness.  If anything, as I understand Samkhya philosophy, all of physics fits into Prakriti, quantum fields, quantum vacuum, etc., all of it, whatever the specifics.  The laws of nature maybe do represent Purusha, since as laws they are unobserved--in a sense they represent (our collective) intelligence.  On the other hand many of our ‘laws of nature’ appear to lack the unchanging nature of Purusha--their forms may change from one generation to the next (and are dependent on particular conceptualization of Nature)…

 

Best wishes,

 

Siegfried

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[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod and Kashyap ji,

 

Thanks. I am combining our discussion in many threads in here in this thread so that we do not need to open other threads.

 

[1] Sehgal: The real power of experience/awareness is inbuilt in consciousness and NOT in the astral mind and senses. Due to the presence of the non-emergent fundamental awareness in the consciousness, it does not interact with the physical and therefore no category mistake take place. Otherwise, also for the interaction, both the entities should have some discrete parts and there should be some emergent phenomenon. Awareness is not an emergent phenomenon and consciousness is also indivisible holistic fundamental ontological existence.  So there is no interaction and no category mistake. […] Our main point of discussion was the direct interaction between the darkness and the brain.  […] I had elaborated at length along with analogies as to how the consciousness [soul] does not interact/associate with the signal of thoughts/experience due to the presence of a non-emergent indivisible infinite field of awareness [OOO God] in the consciousness out of space/time. I also indicated that interaction is required where the phenomenon is an emergent one but awareness in the consciousness has been fundamental -- it was always manifest out of space/time. […] [The 10 problems of the eDAM. Rest is repetitions.]

 

Vimal: Perhaps, the “non-emergent fundamental awareness” is also called the primal entity Brahman, which is a dual-aspect entity in the eDAM.

 

My understanding is that Brahman has been interpreted differently to some extent by 7 different schools: 6 sub-schools of monistic Vedānta and dualistic Sāṅkhya and they have a history of never ending heated debates; so our debate is not surprising. I suggest that you visit Jagadguru Padmashri Rambhadracharya ji at Chitrakut. He also has Ph.D. from Kasi (Varanasi) and being blind he has memorized all Vedas, Upanishads, Gīta, and Ramayana. I have visited him; he is a very intelligent saint. He will explain you further the problems of Sāṅkhya and Advaita. He is an expert in theist top-down approach based cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita (qualified non-dualism) and interpreted Upanishads and Gīta in this sub-school of Vedānta. The Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita (eDAM) is similar to cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita except the eDAM is based on scientific bottom-up approach.

 

Discreteness is not necessary for interaction; fields can also interact; as a matter of fact, particles are excited modes of fields as per QFT.  It does not matter; both interactions are present both in emerged entities and non-emerged fundamental entities. For example, the ZPF is non-emerged fundaments entity but particles can interact; for example, an electron can interact with ZPF.

 

I agree with you that there is no the direct interaction between the darkness and the brain because darkness is NOT an object or stimuli; darkness is a subjective experience as I mentioned many times, and there is no stimulus to interact in pitch dark. For experiences we do not need external stimuli; in dreams, there are no external stimuli and still, we have vivid experience. Thus, you cannot take darkness experience to prove that the “self” (soul, the localized Puruṣa) and “chitta” (long-term memory or LTM signal represented in the fictitious causal world of Prakṛti) do not interact for an experience. Why? This is because in my example, in the eDAM, (a) “self” (mental aspect of the self-related state) is equivalent to the localized Puruṣa and (b) the resultant of the interaction between endogenous FF signals (representing no light stimuli in pitch dark) and cognitive LTM based FB signals is equivalent to the chitta-signal (causal body of Prakṛti); they need to interact without making a category mistake. In the eDAM, since the mental and physical aspects are inseparable and the information is the same in both aspects, the self-related neural signal has to interact with the resultant to select from LTM and then the “self” experiences the specific SE (such as darkness). For further detail, see (Vimal, 2010c). It is not only nonsense but objectionable nonsense (I borrowed Einstein’s words) to say that an isolated system (soul) can experience the external objects without interacting with the objects. Remember again, darkness is NOT an object; darkness is a subjective experience and hence brain cannot interact with darkness because there is nothing to interact; it is all pitch dark.

 

As I mentioned in my previous emails, the so-called 10 problems of the eDAM are basically 10 queries because of misunderstanding and misconstructions of the eDAM and because you look at it from the eyes of Sāṅkhya and materialism, which I have discussed with you over 2 years and clarified many times. Therefore, the prerequisite is reading at the least my 5 articles. Then if any other colleague asks me then I will clarify. Sometimes, I ask myself why I am still interacting with you. The answer I get that you seem to represent millions of people who might have similar half-knowledge (little or no knowledge of neuroscience) based superstitious religious beliefs. So if I am somehow able to convince you then I can say to others that read our discussion.

 

[2] Vasavada: The general agreement is that there was a very small patch of vacuum just at the time of big bang before inflation started. So some form of space was there. It had probably one unified quantum field. Later on, this field was split into a number of fields. If in the beginning there is just one field, you can draw parallel with Brahman. That would be self-interacting. If there are more than one quantum fields before inflation, then surely they will be interacting with each other. There are large numbers of models, probably one for each physicist working on this!!! Anyway, I do not know what would correspond with Prakṛti and Puruṣa. Laws of nature were of course there in some abstract form. Can you call them Puruṣa and quantum field Prakṛti?

 

Vimal: It seems that you also agree that an interaction between the “self” and the object is needed for the “self” to experience the object. Isolating the “self” from the object can not entail the “self” to experience the object. In simple language, we cannot experience the object if we are isolated from the object; we need to look at it to experience it, which involves interaction.

 

One could ask: what was surrounding the very small patch of vacuum? Was it infinite vacuum, just “nothing”, or something else? Were there quantum fluctuations in the very small patch? The patch should be smaller than 0.88 mm); the diameter of the currently observable universe was 0.88 mm at the end of initial inflation (10⁻³² seconds after Big Bang). If you are postulating a single unified quantum field in the beginning, then it is another name for the primal entity (Brahman); its states are dual-aspect entities in the eDAM framework.

 

My understanding is that all the laws are inherent in Brahman (the primal entity). In the top-down approach, Brahman is the OOO God (eternal fully manifested consciousness). In the bottom-up science based approach starts with unmanifested Brahman (with “nothing”) before Big Bang. My understanding is that Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad also starts with “nothing”. Here, “nothing” means vacuum field without “matter” (Krauss, 2012).

 

In my view, since dualism has 11 serious problems (Vinod ji may not agree because he clings to his own view), I prefer the least problematic extended dual-aspect monism (eDAM). In this email, I am trying to interpret/convert Sāṅkhya in the eDAM to make it least problematic.

 

In the eDAM, a state of an entity is a dual-aspect entity. Both aspects are inseparable. Therefore, the unmanifested state of the primal entity (Brahman) is also a dual-aspect entity. There are two types of classification of entities: eastern and western.

 

In the eastern classification, there are two groups of entities: (i) experiencer and (ii) the rest of entities which are non-experiencer. Its experiencer aspect is called Puruṣa and its non-experiencer (jaḍa, such as physical, astral and causal bodies) aspect is Prakṛti.

 

In the western classification, there are also two groups of entities: (i) physical and (ii) the rest of entities which are non-physical. The non-physical is called mental. Its physical aspect is the physical bodies of Prakṛti and its mental aspect includes Puruṣa/experiencer, experiences, and functions (astral and causal bodies of Prakṛti). 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 9:37 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ram writes to Kashyap:

"Thanks for the information. This means that the large swathes of space are like vacuum field with quantum fluctuations (QFs), in analogy to the usual vacuum field with QFs.

 

Either way is fine with my argument that, in Sāṅkhya, (a) Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛti must interact for Cosmic Fire or Big Bang, and (b) localized Puruṣa (soul, self) must interact with Chitta (Prakṛti) to experience objects.

 

In the eDAM, the self is the 1pp-mental aspect of a self-related state of a mind-brain system, which has neural correlates/basis (such as cortical and subcortical midline structures) as its inseparable 3pp-physical aspect.

For the self to experience a specific SE, such as redness (or darkness), there is the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of the interaction/matching between (i) exogenous or endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a stimulus (or a lack of any external light stimulus) and (ii) cognitive FB (feedback) signals. If the matching is successful, the "self" selects the specific matched SE from the LTM and experiences it. For detail, please see (Vimal, 2010a). In any case, interaction is always involved." 

The presence of large swathes of empty spaces, devoid of matter and energy, has nothing to do with the Purusha and Prakriti or their interaction. This empty large space of the physical world is engulfed in the astral world which has its own space. The entire astral world along with its space is engulfed in the causal world and its space. And all the 3 worlds -- physical, astral and causal are engulfed in the cosmic consciousness ( Brahmana). Brahman( cosmic consciousness) is self-sustaining, fundamental, non-emergent and is not engulfed in any other space. Just visualize an ocean extending infinitely in width and breadth and also in depth. so might be the cosmic consciousness.

Vinod Sehgal

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 1:47 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Kashyap,

 

Thanks for the information. This means that the large swathes of space are like vacuum field with quantum fluctuations (QFs), in analogy to the usual vacuum field with QFs.

 

Either way is fine with my argument that, in Sāṅkhya, (a) Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛti must interact for Cosmic Fire or Big Bang, and (b) localized Puruṣa (soul, self) must interact with Chitta (Prakṛti) to experience objects.

 

In the eDAM, the self is the 1pp-mental aspect of a self-related state of a mind-brain system, which has neural correlates/basis (such as cortical and subcortical midline structures) as its inseparable 3pp-physical aspect.

For the self to experience a specific SE, such as redness (or darkness), there is the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of the interaction/matching between (i) exogenous or endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a stimulus (or a lack of any external light stimulus) and (ii) cognitive FB (feedback) signals. If the matching is successful, the "self" selects the specific matched SE from the LTM and experiences it. For detail, please see (Vimal, 2010a). In any case, interaction is always involved. 

Vinod claims that interaction is not needed. What is your opinion? 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

Kind regards,

Rām

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[Asingh2384]

Dear Siegfried:

Universality of any theory (QM, GR, Standard Model, Evolution etc) cannot be established until they predict the entire universe. Current theories are not universal but local since they predict only 4 percent of the material universe because of missing physics of the spontaneity or equivalence of mass-energy-space-time as evidenced in the observed wave-particle behavior. When we add this missing physics, 100 percent of the universe behavior becomes predictable without any paradoxes or inconsistencies.

 

Your statement – “…many of our ‘laws of nature’ appear to lack the unchanging nature of Purusha--their forms may change from one generation to the next (and are dependent on particular conceptualization of Nature)…” is not true because There is only ONE fundamental universal law that is the law of conservation of mass/energy/space/time continuum that is eternal or never changing. All the other so-called local laws (represented mathematically in terms of “=” representing conservation between the left and right side entities of the equation) are partial (incomplete) corollaries of the fundamental cosmic law of conservation simply stated as –

 

“What exists now did always exist in the past and will always exist in future. Nothing never existed nor will ever exist.“

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

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[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Continuation of my prev email:

From (Vimal, 2012c): 

In the Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita (eDAM) framework, the mental and physical aspects are latent in the unmanifested state of Brahman, which appears as formless, aspectless, and attributeless. If total energy of universe is zero (if the amount of positive energy in the form of matter is exactly canceled out by the negative energy in the form of gravity) as Flat Universe model requires, then quantum fluctuations (spontaneous births and deaths of virtual particle pairs) in dual-aspect unmanifested state of Brahman will provide necessary conditions for the manifestation of our universe and for the both aspects to interdependently co-arise, i.e., a universe arose from ‘nothing' (the empty space  at ground state of quantum field with minimum energy or no space-time) (Berman, 2009; Berman & Trevisan, 2010; Guth, 1997; Hartle & Hawking, 1983; Hawking & Mlodinow, 2010; Krauss, 2012).^[i] 

The conservation of energy implies that the zero total energy of universe must be valid from Big Bang at the singularity (zero radius) to today and the future including in the patch of diameter for the currently observable universe of 0.88 mm at the end of initial inflation (10⁻³² seconds after Big Bang).

---

[i]  In general, one can explain the creation of Universe from nothing (i.e., without initial energy or mass) using classical and/or quantum approach. (Berman & Trevisan, 2010) proposes classical approach as follows: one can apply General Theory of Relativity (GTR) (or other classical theories) to understand the evolution of Universe after Planck’s time (t ~ 10⁻⁴³ second). For t < 10⁻⁴³ second, one needs to accept that Einstein’s field equations result in the average values for the fluctuating quantities. For example, the quantum fluctuations in empty-space before Planck’s time can be averaged using those equations. This is like the Path Integral theory of Feynman (Feynman & Hibbs, 1965), which proposes that paths fluctuate around the average trajectories; this average trajectory can be estimated using classical physics. In other words, the exponential expansion in the inflationary phase of the very early Universe can be studied by the equation of state. Classically, total energy = |energy of all matter| - |energy of the gravitational field| = 0. In other words, the creation of the Universe does not need energy or mass as long as it is Machian (see (Feynman, 1962-63)) Thus, one can explain the creation of the Universe, out of ‘nothing’ using classical physics.

(Krauss, 2012), a nonbeliever-physicist, summarizes the debate between science’s evolution hypothesis and religions’ creation hypothesis and proposes universe(s) from ‘nothing’ on the basis of science; this endless debate is addressed by the eDAM framework. They along with information from other sources are given as follows:

(i) The debate between science and religions: One could ask interesting questions related to the origin of the universe(s) and physical laws in science and that of the external agent creator (Brahman, God, Allāh, and so on) in religions. One could argue for an eternal universe with or without Creator. If we compromise that creator is also universe itself or at the least a part of universe, then we can easily address this debate by the eDAM framework, where each entity-state has inseparable mental (M) and physical (P) aspects with varying degrees of the manifestation of aspects depending on the entities and their states. The domain of science is the physical aspect and that of religions is the mental aspect. As long as the crossing of domains is prohibited (i.e., materialistic science must not try to explain mental aspects and religions must not try to explain physical aspects), science and religions can develop their models of the creation/evolution of universe(s) without any contradiction because of the doctrine of the inseparability of aspects. In other words, for example, the information provided by science related to the physical aspect will be faithfully, automatically, rigorously translated in to the mental aspect because the aspects are inseparable (both aspects are in 1-1 correspondence in this sense). That debate will re-start if we make category mistake by the crossing of domains, i.e., science starts explaining our consciousness and religions start explaining our material brain. In other words, same-same (P-P and M-P) explanations are allowed but cross explanations (M-P or P-M) are prohibited to avoid category mistakes.

  In the unmanifested state of universe/creator/empty-space (pre-Big-Bang state), the aspects are latent, so this state appears aspectless. The manifestations of universe start after the Big-Bang and there are innumerable manifested states of universe.

          (ii) Laws and entities: From scientific point of view, universe can spatiotemporally infinite and physical laws could be like the layers of onion, with new laws operating at a new scale/entity-level; for example, classical physical laws at larger classical scale and quantum laws at very small quantum scale. In the eDAM framework, all laws and entities potentially pre-exist in the unmanifested state of the universe; otherwise, they will never be realized after the manifestation of the universe.

          (iii) Definition of nothing: (a) for some believers, nothing is ‘nonbeing’ (non-existence), in vaguely ill-defined sense; (b) for some believers, nothing is ‘as it is’ (exactly as one finds/sees it now without changing anything; (c) for some believers, nothing is that from which only God can create something; (d) for some, nothing is the ‘absence of something’; (e) for some classical scientists, nothing is purely empty space without any real matter and/or radiation; (f) for some quantum scientists, nothing is a quantum vacuum: the quantum state with the lowest possible energy, i.e., the ground state of quantum field with minimum energy without matter and/or radiation; it is not truly empty but contains virtual particles (fleeting electromagnetic waves and particles that pop into and out of existence); and (g) for some physicists nothing is no space, no time, no matter, no radiation, no gravitational energy, no energy, no anything and total empty, but virtual particles can exist. The eDAM framework is sympathetic to the definitions (e), (f) and (g).                                                                                          

(iv) Potential pre-existence: One could argue that if entities and laws potentially pre-exist in the unmanifested state of nothingness, then it is not a state of true nothingness even if they spontaneously arise. In that case, even God cannot create anything if there is no potential for creation. Therefore, the potential pre-existence is a brute fact in the eDAM framework.

(v) Philosophy of science: It is based on three key premises: (i) we should follow the scientific empirical evidence that are spatiotemporally repeatable; (ii) we must test our hypotheses and theories rigorously; and (iii) scientific experiments are the ultimate judge/referee of truth.

(vi) Fundamental constants of universe: There are 6 fine tuned fundamental costants of universe, which are fundamental to present-day physical theory and the known structure of the universe; even a slight change will abolish life. As per (Rees, 1999),  the fine-tuning of the Universe requires six dimensionless fundamental constants: (a) N = ratio of the strengths of gravity to that of electromagnetism ≈10³⁶, which governs the relative importance of gravity and electrostatic attraction/repulsion in explaining the properties of baryonic matter; (b) Epsilon (ε) = strength of the force binding nucleons into nuclei = 0.007, which  governs the energy output of stars; (c) Omega (Ω) = relative importance of gravity and expansion energy in the Universe ≈ 0.3, which determines the ultimate fate of the universe; (d) Lambda (λ) = the ratio of the energy density of the universe (due to the cosmological constant) to the critical density of the universe ≈ 0.7; (e) Q = ratio of the gravitational energy required for breaking up and dispersing the largest known structures (such as galactic cluster or supercluster) to the energy equivalent of its mass ≈ 10^–5; (f) D = number of spatial dimensions in spacetime = 3. In the God-theory, Creator planned to select each constant of above value, but nothing is explained or predicted. The eDAM framework, since the constants are related to the physical aspect of manifested states of universe, follows science.

(vii) Multiverse hypothesis: This hypothesis avoids external agent (God) for the fine tuning of the fundamental constants. In other words, our universe is not unique on large scale. There are presumably 10⁵⁰⁰ different possible consistent 4D universes, which could result from a single 10D string theory.

(viii) Geometries of universe: Our universe is expanding starting from the extremely hot, dense Big Bang about 13.72 BYA. Our sun is one of 200–400 billion stars in our milky-way galaxy, which is one of about 400 billion galaxies in the observable universe. These entail 3 types of geometries of our universe depending upon the total amount of matter in it (represented by the curvature Ω): closed, open, or flat. In a closed universe, the density of matter (such as stars, galaxies, dark matter) and energy is sufficient to cause space to close back upon itself, i.e, as per General Theory of Relativity, the total energy is zero, curvature Ω>1, and our universe eventually recollapse in the process of Big Crunch (the reverse of a Big Bang); this is cyclic model of universe. In an open universe, the density of matter (curvature Ω<1) is such that our universe will continue expanding forever at a finite rate. In a flat universe, the total energy is zero, curvature Ω=1, and the expansion of universe slows down, but never stops. 

(ix) Flat universe from nothing: Some theists argue that the average total Newtonian gravitational energy of each galaxy being zero in a flat, expanding universe is arbitrary, but that scientists use zero energy to argue against God; this is unclear; it is the total energy (the positive matter/radiation energy plus the negative grativational energy) of universe that is zero. (Krauss, 2012) assumes that empty-space (without any matter or radiation) and the laws of physics pre-exist. (Guth, 1997)’s ‘the ultimate free lunch’ implies that universe(s) can be created from such ‘nothing’/empty-space, which can have a non-zero energy (even in the absence of any matter or radiation) such as the ground state of quantum field with minimum energy. Since the General Theory of Relativity (GTR) suggests that space will expand exponentially and rapidly to encompass our whole universe, which will get flatter and flatter as the minimum ground state energy of empty space grows. This is because the related gravitational ‘pressure’ in empty space is negative, which implies that the rapid expansion stores energy into space but not vice versa. At the end of inflation, this stored energy of empty space is converted into the energy of real particles and radiations. This effectively creates our universe with the present expansion of the Big Bang. Since the inflation effectively erases the memory of the state of the universe before it began, it is the traceable beginning of the Big Bang. If the initial preexisting universe or metaverse were large, the complexities and irregularities are initially in large scales. After sufficient inflationary expansion, they are smoothed out and/or driven outside of the horizon today to the extent our universe is almost uniform. Eventually, we will have flat universe with the average Newtonian gravitational energy of all objects (total energy = |matter/radiation energy| – |gravitational energy|) being zero. Thus, a universe can begin as a microscopically small region of empty space and expand to our observable universe with matters and radiations from nothing. This is because of the dynamics of gravity and quantum mechanics. The process of inflation the energy of empty space (nothing) converts into the energy of something/everything (matters and radiations) in large and flat universe. The major assumptions are (a) space with nothing (no matter and no radiation, but has minimum ground state energy of quantum field) pre-exists (i.e., before Big Bang), (b) it can store energy, and (c) the laws of physics like general relativity and quantum mechanics also pre-exist that lead to the consequences of creating our universe. In quantum world, the empty space is “a boiling brew of virtual particles that pop in and out of existence in a time so short we cannot see them directly. Virtual particles are manifestations of a basic property of quantum systems. […] These ‘quantum fluctuations’ imply something essential about the quantum world: nothing always produces something, if only for an instant” (Krauss, 2012).p153. The nothing with the ground-state minimum energy of quantum field in empty-space is as if all energies of the infinite empty-space are sucked in at one point to result the Big Bang. 

As per (Wilczek, 1980, December) “One can speculate that universe began in the most symmetrical state possible and that in such a state no matter existed; the universe was a vacuum. A second state existed, and in it matter existed. The second state had slightly less symmetry, but was also lower in energy. Eventually a patch of less symmetrical phase appeared and grew rapidly. The energy released by the transition found form in the creation of particles. This event might be identified with the big bang … The answer to the ancient question ‘Why is there something rather than nothing?’ would be that ‘nothing’ is unstable”.

(x) General Theory of Relativity (GTR) and Quantum Mechanics (QM) in the creation of Universe from nothing: Einstein once asked “whether God had any choice in the creation of universe” (Krauss, 2012).p.160, where Einstein’s God was related to the existence of order in the universe. God/Nature had choices if multiverse model is true because our universe is a part of infinite multiverse of universes with an infinite set of different combinations of laws and varieties of particles and substances and forces; so our universe would not be unique. However, if our universe is unique then God/Nature did not have choice. One could argue that theists’ God (external agent) is unnecessary or redundant. 

The GTR could address the dynamics not only of objects moving through space, but also that of space itself (how it evolves). Therefore, the quantum theory of gravity should explain both the properties of space and objects existing/moving in space from micro/subatomic to macro/cosmological levels. In the quantum electrodynamics (QED, the quantum theory of electromagnetism) (Feynman, 1950), virtual particles/photons can pop out of empty space spontaneously (at will) but they need to disappear in very short time calculated from the Uncertainty Principle. This entails that small compact spaces may pop in and out of existence (virtual universes) consistent with the Feynman quantum sum over possible space-time configurations. (Hawking & Mlodinow, 2010) implies that the quantum theory of gravity allows for the momentary creation of space from nothing. However, the power for explaining universe from nothing by this hypothesis is equivalent to that by the hypothesis of the virtual particles that populate empty space. In QED, the charge can emit coherently many virtual zero-energy-photons that do not have to disappear for a long time. This is because the Uncertainty Principle (DE.Dt ~ h) implies that the uncertainty in energy from its zero average value (slight change of energy by the emission and absorption of virtual particles) is inversely proportional to the time-period/duration of its observation/measurement. Therefore, virtual particles with zero energy can exist for arbitrarily long time and can travel for arbitrarily long distance before its absorption leading to the possibility of long-range interactions between charged particles. This process can lead to a nonzero real electric field observable at large distance from a charged particle. Similarly, one could argue that a compact universe (such as the one we live in) with zero total energy can spontaneously appear from nothing and live for a long time without violating the energy conservation.

As per (Hartle & Hawking, 1983), “There are excited states which represent universes which expand from zero volume, reach a maximum size, and then recollapse”. The Hartle-Hawking state is related to the state of the universe prior to the Planck epoch, which is a no-boundary proposal that (a) the universe is infinitely finite and (b) the time did not exist before the Big Bang. This is because time started after the Big Bang; time did not exist before the formation of spacetime linked with the Big Bang and then the expansion of the universe in space-time. They propose that if we could travel backward in time toward the beginning of the universe (Big Bang), there was first only space and no time, i.e., the notion of a beginning of the universe is meaningless, the universe has no origin/beginning, it has no initial boundaries, and the universe was a singularity in both space and time. The implications for the ‘boundary conditions’ on universes (Hartle & Hawking, 1983) that can emerge from nothing are as follows: (i) Since the total energy of a universe is zero, universes can spontaneously appear from nothing with matter and radiation or without them (i.e., empty-space). (ii) The process of inflation will be needed for creating a long-lived universe from nothing using the above process; this universe that we live in appears flat.

Thus, quantum gravity (GTR+QM) is prerequisite for the creation of universe (that we live in) from nothing, where nothing means no space, no time, no matter/radiation, no energy, no anything, but virtual particles can pop in and pop out of existence and physical laws (GTR+QM) preexist; but this nothing is unstable. This nothing is different from the quantum vacuum that contains empty-space with the ground-state of quantum field with minimum energy; this nothing is something; it has preexisting space, virtual particles, and physical laws (such as GTR and QM). One could argue that virtual particles are spontaneously created, which is acceptable to many. In addition, one could argue for the creation of universe from preexisting empty space. However, then one needs to hypothesize the origin of empty-space from ‘no space’ by postulating the more fundamental nothingness (such as atheist Buddhist Śūnyatā) from which empty space may have emerged, which eternally preexisted. In reverse process, our universe may one day return to fundamental nothing via comprehensible processes that do not require any external control/direction, such as God. Everything appears as a miracle without science, whereas with science, nothing is miracle as everything can be explained one day. However, we still need to address the origins of physical laws. 

(xi) Origins of physical laws:  Theists can argue that the origin of physical laws and other unknown entities is God (an agent external to universe). However, this argument is not acceptable because it has an explanatory gap problem: precisely how God can do it, i.e., the mechanism of origin of physical laws is unclear.

Alternatively, one could argue that the origin of physical laws can be addressed by multiverse model, where innumerable universes are created from nothing with their own physical laws on arbitrary basis. One of those universes is our universe with its own current physical laws. The multiverse can be either (a) in the form of a landscape of universes existing in more than 3D space (such as in 10D string theory), or (b) in the form of a possible infinitely replicating set of universes in a 3D space (such as in eternal inflation). There is no prescribed cause for our universe if the physical laws are random and stochastic. This allows a universe, such as our universe, would arise with its physical laws. This is because nothing is required to fix the physical laws as they are. The physical laws can vary with the levels (such as classical vs. quantum levels), in analogy to an onion with millions of layers, as Feynman noted. There could be an infinite number of infinitesimally small to infinitely big regions in a multiverse; some regions may have nothing and some may have something (e.g., our universe). The physical laws and the fundamental forces and constants of nature are merely accidents correlated to our existence in this landscape of multiverse-anthropic model. For example, life as we know it could not have evolved in our Earth if it were located at a different distance from Sun.

However, all our scientific hypotheses require the potential for existence in the fundamental nothingness, i.e., the potential for all matters, radiations, conscious subjective experience, and so on.

 (xii) The potential for existence in the fundamental (true) nothingness: If one defines true nothingness that does not even have the potential for existence, it is unclear that even God, as the First Cause (a supernatural agent external to universe), can create universe from this true nothingness. This is because it is unclear if the supernatural potential for existence is different from regular natural scientific potential for existence as there is no empirical basis. One could argue that atheist Buddhist nirvana is the state of true nothingness, which involves the concept of Śūnyatā. As per some string theorists the empty-space with positive minimum energy cannot be stable, which must decay to a state with negative energy. This implies that our universe will then recollapse inward to a point and our universe will disappear.

(xiii) Summary: The afterword by atheist-scientist Dawkins in (Krauss, 2012) summarizes as follows: (a) the age of universe is 13.72 billion years; (b) since nothingness is unstable, something (such as our universe) is bound to emerge; (c) virtual particles (particles and antiparticles) pop in and out of existence momentarily from nothing; (d) something (universe) from nothing spontaneously happened at the beginning of space and time, via the doctrine of virtual particles, at the Big Bang (singularity); (e) this is followed by the inflationary period, in which our universe and its content took a fraction of a second to expand through 28 orders of magnitude; (f) Stenger, Weinberg, Peter Atkins, Martin Rees, and Stephen Hawking also argue against external agent such as God; and (g) (Krauss, 2012)’s ‘A universe from Nothing’ for cosmology is the equivalent to the Darwin’s ‘On the Origin of Species’ for biology; both argue against supernaturalism.

 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
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[Siegfried Bleher]

Dear Avtar,

 

Thank you for your reply to my comments about universal laws.  I did intentionally say “many of our ‘laws of nature’” to leave open the door for one or more of them to truly be universal.  Conservation of mass/energy does indeed appear to be universal—apart from the fact we don’t yet know what dark matter and dark energy are, whether they fit into the Standard Model or some extension of it, and so on.  I do understand you are attributing to the spontaneous conversion of mass to energy in decay events several phenomena, one being an accounting of mass-energy that you say is missing in physics, another being conscious choice on the part of elementary particles.  While I cannot speak to the latter claim, except to ask whether you can (rigorously) relate such specie of consciousness to human consciousness, I can say mass-energy relationships and interchanges are, in fact, accounted for in elementary particle collisions and calculations as commonplace practice in physics.  When, in your papers, you equate kinetic energy of receding galaxies to converted mass, it is not clear what exactly is the origin of this conversion—i.e. on a microscopic level, what elementary particle event can you attribute to such a conversion?  When a particle is made to accelerate due to electromagnetic or other force, then Einstein’s equations of relativistic kinematics tell us the particle has energy given by , where is the Lorentz factor.  Are you saying some mass is converted to energy during this acceleration?  I would say, rather, that potential energy of interaction between the particle and the source of the interaction is what gets converted to kinetic energy of the particle.

 

It is also not clear to me from your papers how you include space/time in the conservation principle you are classifying as the universal law of conservation.  I do get that as an object picks up speed (relative to some frame of reference), space for that object contracts and its time dilates.  But what is conserved in this case is the proper time, which is independent of mass-energy relationship, although related.

 

Best wishes,

 

Siegfried

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[Bruno Marchal]

Dear Siegfried,

On 09 Aug 2017, at 18:59, Siegfried Bleher wrote:

Dear Kashyap,

 

Very good point—I too feel it is rather early in the game of physics for us to be taking current understanding (i.e. of cosmology or even of Standard Model) into the arena of fundamental nature of consciousness. 

OK. (modulo the point I make below). Physics studies the observable on the terrestrial plane. It might correspond to what some platonists and neoplatonicians consider as the shadow of reality, not reality itself. 

Let us admit that with a quantum mechanics, consciousness did enter in the picture, explicitly so with the idea that consciousness, or the "ultimate spectator", reduce the wave packet. That has been defended by London and Bauer, von Neumann, Wigner, Walker and many others, but eventually refuted, notably by Shimony. 

If anything, as I understand Samkhya philosophy, all of physics fits into Prakriti, quantum fields, quantum vacuum, etc., all of it, whatever the specifics. 

OK. 

The laws of nature maybe do represent Purusha,

They do have a relation with Purusha, but I would not identify them.

since as laws they are unobserved--in a sense they represent (our collective) intelligence.  On the other hand many of our ‘laws of nature’ appear to lack the unchanging nature of Purusha--their forms may change from one generation to the next (and are dependent on particular conceptualization of Nature)…

So let us listen to what the self-introspective machine already tell us. 

Well, actually they remain silent on the Purusha or on the One, but then they explain why. They offer a toy "theory of everything" (which means a theory of God and its emanation, in the plotinian sense). I don't want to add the nuances, which would elongate too much my post, but let us see what this toy theology is,  and which all machine can derive from a single experience they all get when looking inward enough.

In that case the Purusha, or the One, or Cosmic Consciousness (no word at all is correct) is *played* by the Arithmetical Reality. It is unchangeable, and it is provably unnameable by any finitely thirdd person describable entity, and it is at the origin of all the illusions of change and space. It can be seen metaphorically as a sort of person, but it is a bit dangerous to take this too much seriously. Of course the arithmetical reality is not an observable. It is a coherent whole, and it cannot be compressed in any finite theory or observation (as we know since Gödel). Only a tiny parts of it belongs to our collective intelligence (of relatively finite beings).

Now, it reflects itself internally, and this made it becoming Multiple, leading to the "Intelligible" or "World of Ideas". That parts is also not describable in entirety, but can be assessed in part by any reasonable person that we can attach to some form or number. 

Now, those intellectual forms can depart a lot from the Purusha, but when they do not, and when the forms/numbers keep intact their link with the One, they become the individual souls, daugther of the Universal Soul, or Universal First Person, which is the Intelligible in entirety when it keeps too its contact with the One. 

Then, and only then, can the individual soul begin to "hallucinate matter", which is the last form emanating from the One, and which is not part of what exists. It is really only the border of the cave. It makes the physical reality into a stable and persistent illusion/delusion, obeying to laws, though, but those laws reflect only the sleepy state which is the normal condition in the terrestrial plane.

Here, the universal machine give enough precision to extract those physical laws from its pure arithmetical (digital machine are numbers in disguise) introspection, so that we can test this theory. So the physical might refute the theology of number, and without quantum mechanics (without wave collapse) it would already been refuted. In that sense, physics is very important, but if confirmed (which is a never ending task) it is an illusion which can be derived from number's introspection.

Do the Numbers, or the Number of Numbers, precede the One? Certainly not, by definition of the one. Is is concomitant? yes, but not in any provable way, but "obviously" when we assume Mechanism. Plotinus wrote an extraordinary text on this, which foresee Cantor, perhaps Gödel, but there he admits to not being able to conclude, which is all normal because he lacks the notion of Universal machine and person.

Physics is just not the science of the fundamental, nor is Mathematics or Arithmetic, per se. But, according to which hypothesis we assume for the Fundamental, they might be more or less important. With Metaphysical Materialism, physics would be fundamental. With its antipode the digital mechanist assumption, physics is not fundamental at all, and can be reduced to arithmetic, or to the theology of numbers, itself reducible to arithmetic (but provably in a non constructive way, or we get contradictions). 

Best regards,

Bruno Marchal

I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding ofSāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna,  Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya(or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.

...

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[Asingh2384]

Dear Ram:

Standard Big Bang model (BBM) assumption of the net zero energy of the universe is fundamentally wrong as evidenced by the missing 96% (dark energy and dark matter) universe that the standard model fails to predict. Further, the following unresolvable inconsistencies and paradoxes of the BBM (including GR and QM) destroy its credibility as a universal theory:

1.      Quantum gravity?

2.      Parallel universes (undermines the unique set of universal laws that is the foundation of physics)?

3.      The so-called quantum ZPF (Zero-point Field) is 120 orders of magnitude off (higher) than the observed energy in the empty space (cosmological constant). (Quantum ZPF is not the real zero point of the universe as claimed)?

4.      Observer or measurement paradox (undermines credibility of all quantum observations)?

5.      Black hole singularity (undermines GR predictions at the beginning of the universe)?

 

6.      Superluminous (V>C) inflation (violates relativity?

7.      Photon Zero mass in standard model but positive finite energy/momentum violate relativity and equivalence of mass-energy and momentum laws?

8.      Well-established relativity of space-time negates an absolute instant of time zero? Clock either ticks continuously or stops; in either case it never reads time = 0. Zero time or beginning has no physical basis?

9.      BBM’s 4% success rate of universe prediction kills the credibility of the standard model as a universal theory?

Hence, all the arguments using standard BBM model to explain consciousness, Prakriti, Brahma, nothingness, creation, or any physical/spiritual concepts etc have no more than 4% credibility on a universal basis. If you or I score 4% on our physics exam, it would be regarded as a serious failure.

Unfortunately this the sorry state of the BBM standard model. However, these deficiencies can be fixed via integrating the missing physics of spontaneous mass-energy conversion or equivalence into relativity theory that also explains inner workings of QM as well as resolve many of the current paradoxes of physics and cosmology.

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/388721708.943092.1502329403740%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Avtar, 

Thanks for the information.

Kindly email me few articles supporting each of your claims and rejecting the claims of the references I mentioned in my previous email. Perhaps, you may like to update the information in Wikipedia related to BBM, especially Big Bang.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/15dccdb21ac-15de-dcfe%40webprd-m70.mail.aol.com.

[Asingh2384]

Dear Siegfried:

 

Great questions, some answers below:

 

Your question: “….to ask whether you can (rigorously) relate such specie of consciousness to human consciousness?”

 

Answer:

Yes, here are some quotes from famous physicists extracted from my earlier paper:

 

“Parallelism between physics and consciousness problems has been noted by many scientists as physics describes measurable aspects of human experience using the mathematical laws. The well-known physicist Freeman Dyson pointed to the evidence of three levels of mind - the human mind, the mind residing at the micro level the atomic subatomic level, and then at the very macro levels the mind of the universe. The manifestations of the way the subatomic or quantum world acts lead one to think that mind is a reasonable way to describe what's going on. Dyson states - “So the atom seems to have a freedom to choose, that's something, which characterizes quantum processes that they seem to just occur spontaneously. We call that spontaneous decay. So it is spontaneous; that to my mind implies that the thing makes a choice. ……So that this freedom that the individual atom has to have…. seems to be an indication of some rudimentary form of mind.”

 

Thoughts in a contemplative or meditative human mind can decay or be born at the spontaneous intention or free will of the person. Since the empty space in the universe is shown by quantum mechanics to be filled with particles that are born and decayed spontaneously (without an external causation), the argument of similarity between the human mind and the micro-mind can be extended to the macro- or the universal mind. Famous physicist Brian Greene enumerates this fact elegantly by describing how our conscious moment-by-moment activities are governed by the relativistic physics of mass-energy equivalence - “… When you drive your car, E = mc² is at work…..When you use your MP3 player, E = mc² is at work…… As you read this text, E = mc² is at work. The processes in the eye and brain, underlying perception and thought, rely on chemical reactions that interchange mass and energy, once again in accord with Einstein's formula.”

 

The brain-mind problem is thus parallel to the mass-energy problem in physics governed by the relativistic laws that URM is founded on. Hence, URM addresses consciousness related issues within the context of modern neuroscience and related problems in contemporary physics. URM shows that the neurobiological or brain-mind processes and qualia (emotions, thoughts, intentions etc.) are a subset of the relativistic states of consciousness or the universal mind represented as one wholesome continuum of space-time-mass-energy - an orderly physical phenomenon governed by the universal relativistic laws and not a brain generated imperative. The synchronicity between the universal mind and human mind is also experienced and described by many meditative spiritual masters as well.”

 

Your question: “..When, in your papers, you equate kinetic energy of receding galaxies to converted mass, it is not clear what exactly is the origin of this conversion—i.e. on a microscopic level, what elementary particle event can you attribute to such a conversion? “

 

Answer:

Spontaneous mass-energy conversion is nothing but the physical mechanism governing the well-established mass-energy equivalence. This phenomena or principle is not limited to any select particles but applicable to all masses and energies. Current theories are missing this physics and its field equations that my book and papers describe. The successful predictions of the observed universe expansion and galaxy behavior vindicate the theory and hypotheses.

 

Your comment: “…But what is conserved in this case is the proper time, which is independent of mass-energy relationship, although related.”

 

Answer:

The mainstream scientific theories mistakenly assume independence between mass/energy and space/time. Spontaneous  mass-energy conversion integrates the direct link between the two. As some mass converts to self-motivating kinetic energy of the remaining mass, space-time begin to dilate simultaneously and dependently. Hence, mass/energy/s[ace/time is an integrated whole. This treatment is missing in the current theories that leads to their singularities and observed QM weirdness/inconsistencies as well as its unresolvable paradoxes.

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Siegfried Bleher <SBl...@msn.com>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Thu, Aug 10, 2017 1:15 am

Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Avtar,

 

Thank you for your reply to my comments about universal laws.  I did intentionally say “many of our ‘laws of nature’” to leave open the door for one or more of them to truly be universal.  Conservation of mass/energy does indeed appear to be universal—apart from the fact we don’t yet know what dark matter and dark energy are, whether they fit into the Standard Model or some extension of it, and so on.  I do understand you are attributing to the spontaneous conversion of mass to energy in decay events several phenomena, one being an accounting of mass-energy that you say is missing in physics, another being conscious choice on the part of elementary particles.  While I cannot speak to the latter claim, except to ask whether you can (rigorously) relate such specie of consciousness to human consciousness, I can say mass-energy relationships and interchanges are, in fact, accounted for in elementary particle collisions and calculations as commonplace practice in physics.  When, in your papers, you equate kinetic energy of receding galaxies to converted mass, it is not clear what exactly is the origin of this conversion—i.e. on a microscopic level, what elementary particle event can you attribute to such a conversion?  When a particle is made to accelerate due to electromagnetic or other force, then Einstein’s equations of relativistic kinematics tell us the particle has energy given by , where is the Lorentz factor.  Are you saying some mass is converted to energy during this acceleration?  I would say, rather, that potential energy of interaction between the particle and the source of the interaction is what gets converted to kinetic energy of the particle.

 

It is also not clear to me from your papers how you include space/time in the conservation principle you are classifying as the universal law of conservation.  I do get that as an object picks up speed (relative to some frame of reference), space for that object contracts and its time dilates.  But what is conserved in this case is the proper time, which is independent of mass-energy relationship, although related.

 

Best wishes,

 

Siegfried

 

From: 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 1:39 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Siegfried:

 

Universality of any theory (QM, GR, Standard Model, Evolution etc) cannot be established until they predict the entire universe. Current theories are not universal but local since they predict only 4 percent of the material universe because of missing physics of the spontaneity or equivalence of mass-energy-space-time as evidenced in the observed wave-particle behavior. When we add this missing physics, 100 percent of the universe behavior becomes predictable without any paradoxes or inconsistencies.

 

Your statement – “…many of our ‘laws of nature’ appear to lack the unchanging nature of Purusha--their forms may change from one generation to the next (and are dependent on particular conceptualization of Nature)…” is not true because There is only ONE fundamental universal law that is the law of conservation of mass/energy/space/time continuum that is eternal or never changing. All the other so-called local laws (represented mathematically in terms of “=” representing conservation between the left and right side entities of the equation) are partial (incomplete) corollaries of the fundamental cosmic law of conservation simply stated as –

 

“What exists now did always exist in the past and will always exist in future. Nothing never existed nor will ever exist.“

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Siegfried Bleher <SBl...@msn.com>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Aug 9, 2017 10:07 am

Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Kashyap,

 

Very good point—I too feel it is rather early in the game of physics for us to be taking current understanding (i.e. of cosmology or even of Standard Model) into the arena of fundamental nature of consciousness.  If anything, as I understand Samkhya philosophy, all of physics fits into Prakriti, quantum fields, quantum vacuum, etc., all of it, whatever the specifics.  The laws of nature maybe do represent Purusha, since as laws they are unobserved--in a sense they represent (our collective) intelligence.  On the other hand many of our ‘laws of nature’ appear to lack the unchanging nature of Purusha--their forms may change from one generation to the next (and are dependent on particular conceptualization of Nature)…

 

Best wishes,

 

Siegfried

 

From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vasavada, Kashyap V
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 9:01 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

 

Dear Vimal,

You and Vinod have interesting debate going on. But the fundamental physics is not yet clear on what was the primordial stuff. The general agreement is that there was a very small patch of vacuum just at the time of big bang before inflation started. So some form of space was there. It had probably one unified quantum field. Later on this field was split into a number of fields. If there is just one field in the beginning, you can draw parallel with Brahman. That would be self-interacting. If there are more than one quantum fields before inflation, then surely they will be interacting with each other. There are large number of models, probably one for each physicist working on this!!! Anyway, I do not know what would correspond with  Prakriti and Purush. Laws of nature were of course there in some abstract form. Can you call them Purush and quantum field  Prakrity?

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 4:18 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com

Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Kashyap,

 

Thanks for the information. This means that the large swathes of space are like vacuum field with quantum fluctuations (QFs), in analogy to the usual vacuum field with QFs.

 

Either way is fine with my argument that, in Sāṅkhya, (a) Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛti must interact for Cosmic Fire or Big Bang, and (b) localized Puruṣa (soul, self) must interact with Chitta (Prakṛti) to experience objects.

 

In the eDAM, the self is the 1pp-mental aspect of a self-related state of a mind-brain system, which has neural correlates/basis (such as cortical and subcortical midline structures) as its inseparable 3pp-physical aspect.

 

For the self to experience a specific SE, such as redness (or darkness), there is the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of the interaction/matching between (i) exogenous or endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a stimulus (or a lack of any external light stimulus) and (ii) cognitive FB (feedback) signals. If the matching is successful, the "self" selects the specific matched SE from the LTM and experiences it. For detail, please see (Vimal, 2010a). In any case, interaction is always involved. 

 

Vinod claims that interaction is not needed. What is your opinion? 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 3:31 PM, "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:

 

Dear Vinod and Vimal,

If you forgive me for jumping into  your debate, in this case I agree with Vinod that,

“The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations”.

GR just says that matter curves (distorts) space time. It does not say that there can be no space without matter or radiation. In fact de Sitter universe keeps on expanding with no matter, just a positive cosmological constant. Forget about models of inflation, even now, there is huge amount of interstellar space where there is practically no or extremely little matter or energy. Interstellar space is practically vacuum e.g. you may run into a molecule every few miles! It is possible that I may have  misunderstood your disagreement!

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

 

From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 1:45 PM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; George Weissmann <georg...@aol.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

 

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

Sehgal: The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations is based upon some scientific arguments and not mere speculation. If we trust that cosmic inflation and BB theory of the creation of the universe is correct, there is all the possibility that there may be many swathes of the universe having NIL matter and energy/radiations. The BB was followed immediately with a superluminal expansion of space but matter and energy within space cannot travel more than the speed of light. In other words, at the time of the cosmic inflation of space, matter/energy expanding with it might not have kept pace with the expansion of the space. This will result in the creation of some territories of space devoid of any matter/energy.

 

Vimal: As per Wikipedia (as of 8 August 2017), “In physical cosmology, cosmic inflation, cosmological inflation, or just inflation, is a theory of the exponential expansion of space in the early universe. The inflationary epoch lasted from 10⁻³⁶ seconds after the conjectured Big Bang singularity to sometime between 10⁻³³ and 10⁻³² seconds after the singularity. Following the inflationary period, the Universe continues to expand, but at a less rapid rate.^[1]”

 

How big was the universe at the end of inflation? As per (FrankH, 2012), “So given a size of the currently observable universe, we can ask how big was that volume at any particular time in the past. According to this paper at the end of inflation the universe's scale factor was about 10⁻³⁰ smaller than it is today, so that would give a diameter for the currently observable universe at the end of inflation of 0.88 millimeters which is approximately the size of a grain of sand (See calculation at WolframAlpha). It is believed that inflation needed to expand the universe by at least a factor of 60 e-foldings (which is a factor of e⁶⁰). So using WolframAlpha again we find that the diameter of the universe before inflation would have been 7.7×10⁻³⁰ meters, which is only about 480,000 Planck lengths.”

 

My understanding is that (a) relativity rejects the existence of space-time independent of matter-energy, (b) cosmic inflation theory does not contradict Relativity theory, and (c) inflation does not contradict the prohibition of faster-than-light speed. Therefore, I disagree with you.

 

Sehgal: Even in the current era, there have been Yogis/Sages who have had the reproducible experiences of the Astral and Causal worlds in a quite vivid manner.

 

Vimal: Can you provide the names, addresses, and phone numbers of such yogis so that we can contact them directly? And/or bring them in this discussion forum to confront our queries. In my view, what they observe are simply their subjective experiences, which have their respective neural correlate(s)/basis.

 

Sehgal: But then we cannot say that this signal has emanated out from the darkness or there has been some actual interaction between the darkness and the brain. [Vimal’s paraphrase of Sehgal’s queries: Individual localized consciousness (soul, self) does not interact with Chitta-signal to experience the physical objects, i.e., Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya do not interact, for example, the experience of darkness, which is a different kind of experience. Moreover, there are problems in the eDAM.]

 

Vimal: You are missing my point again. Darkness is simply a visual SE (like any other SE) that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE.

 

I disagree with your claim: Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya NEVER interact for performing any function or experience or for anything; just the proximity of Puruṣa and Prakṛti is enough, rest is all-automatic. One example is experiencing darkness, which is a different kind of experience.

 

Of course, darkness is a different kind of experience similar to redness is different from grayness or sweetness, but the processing of neural information thru the matching and selection of a specific SE (such as darkness vs. redness) related to SE is similar in their respective NNs as mentioned above.

 

In the eDAM, the “self” is the 1pp-mental aspect of the state of self-related NN. The external objects simply reflect or emit light, which gets converted into neural signals; then self-related signals interact with the object-related signals. Please note that physical signals interact with physical signals to avoid category mistake. A mental entity (such as self) cannot directly interact with a physical entity (such as an external object); otherwise, category mistake will be made. There is no light signal in pitch dark, which has nothing to do with my argument because the interaction is between neural signals, not with physical objects. Please, try to understand this point. That is why your half-knowledge in neuroscience and in the eDAM are causing you such a big problem to the extent you are losing all your credibility.

 

Sāṅkhya makes a serious category mistake. You are forcing that Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya do not interact to avoid category mistake; this is where you are making a big mistake.

 

As far as I am concerned, the dualistic Sāṅkhya is 100% rejected because of its 11 problems whether you like it or not. To save it to some extent, it needs to be converted into a version of dual-aspect monism or that of the eDAM. 

 

What you call problems in the eDAM is simply your half-knowledge and misunderstanding and misconstruction. If you seriously read my at least the five articles related to 5 components of the eDAM, namely (Vimal, 2008), (Vimal, 2010a), (Vimal, 2013), (Vimal, 2015b), and (Vimal, 2016d),  then I can try helping you with further clarifications. 

 

Otherwise, it is your choice. In this case, as BMP’s implies, let us agree with humility, tolerance, and compassion for each other that we have disagreement using the concept of “unity in diversity”.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

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[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Vinod and Vimal,

Let us stop this formality of addressing as doctors and Ph.D.’s etc.!!!

Debate between you two is quite interesting. But as for me, honestly, my knowledge of Vedanta, Sankhya and consciousness is extremely limited. So I will not weigh in those arguments. For pure physics, I am much more confidant. So I am quite willing to express my opinion, with this caution. Physics is purely based on sensory data. So when you extend the ideas of physics to consciousness and non-sensory world, be warned that you may be on uncertain ground! Current Physics may or may not agree with your ideas drawn from Hindu philosophy.

Now, from physics point of view, beginning of our observable universe with a very small patch of vacuum having zero total energy seems ok. Majority (not all) physicists will go along with this. This needs idea of inflationary scenario. There are many supporting consequences, but it is not experimentally verified as yet. Also the idea of neighboring patches giving rise to infinite number of parallel universes is also attractive, but it too does not have any experimental support. By the way, the talk about universe starting with “nothing” by Krauss and others is extremely misleading. This has been discussed on physics blogs for years. The wording is not right! When you say “nothing” it does not mean what a common man understands by “nothing” i.e. absence of anything! E=0 quantum vacuum is not nothing! Quantum vacuum is a very complicated object; it has to have fluctuating quantum fields governed by laws of nature. Our known universe is supposed to have come from a wild quantum fluctuation. So saying universe came from nothing is misleading at best and perhaps a dishonest statement to sell books! As far as I can tell, most physicists would agree that big bang theory cannot be understood without using quantum fields. There is no completely classical model of origin of universe. Other than this I agree with most of the physics stuff mentioned by Vimal in the second e-mail. By the way, as I understand, theories of origin of universe in Vayupuran and Nasadiyasukta also talk about origin of universe in a dark vacuum with just formless Brahman existing.

Fields are usually interacting, unless forbidden by some conservation laws. In the case of unified field it can be self-interacting. If you want to extend this to Vedanta, it is anybody’s guess. As I mentioned before, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s group has a theory of all-encompassing unified field which would include consciousness and material world. It is not clear how one can verify it.

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

 

From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 8:24 AM
To: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
Cc: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; georg...@aol.com; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>; BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com>; G Srinivasan <gsva...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>; Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

 

Respected Dr. Ram and Dr Kashyap,

[Siegfried Bleher]

Dear Bruno,

Thank you for your considered response.  It may take me a few days  to digest and comment, as the idea of 'mechanism' as distinct from materialism is new to me.  I have downloaded a paper of yours from academia.edu, which I hope clarifies the subject.  What I would say for now is that quantum mechanics is not unique in physics in involving consciousness, maybe unique in explicitly requiring consideration of consciousness.  That is, classical mechanics includes consciousness implicitly in mathematically representing what I would say amounts to 'the structures of perception', how we see and conceptualize change, point of view (i.e. reference frame), and so on.  

Best wishes,

Siegfried

Sent from Outlook

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From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 9:49 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com

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[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

What's the Total Energy In the Universe?

As per (Wolchover, 2011), “Considering the amount of energy packed in the nucleus of a single uranium atom, or the energy that has been continuously radiating from the sun for billions of years, or the fact that there are 10^80 particles in the observable universe, it seems that the total energy in the universe must be an inconceivably vast quantity. But it's not; it's probably zero.

Light, matter and antimatter are what physicists call "positive energy." And yes, there's a lot of it (though no one is sure quite how much). Most physicists think, however, that there is an equal amount of "negative energy" stored in the gravitational attraction that exists between all the positive-energy particles. The positive exactly balances the negative, so, ultimately, there is no energy in the universe at all.

Negative energy?

Theory of Everything (New Millennium 2002): "Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less [positive] energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together," he wrote.

Since it takes positive energy to separate the two pieces of matter, gravity must be using negative energy to pull them together. Thus, "the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero."

 

Astrophysicists Alexei Filippenko at the University of California, Berkeley and Jay Pasachoff at Williams College explain gravity's negative energy by way of example in their essay, "A Universe From Nothing": "If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero."

 

In other words, the ball's positive energy increases, but at the same time, negative energy is added to the Earth's gravitational field. What was a zero-energy ball at rest in space later becomes a zero-energy ball that is falling through space.

 

The universe as a whole can be compared to this ball. Initially, before the big bang, the universe-ball was at rest. Now, after the big bang, it is falling: light and matter exist, and they are moving. And yet, because of the negative energy built into the gravity field created by these particles, the total energy of the universe remains zero.

 

Ultimate free lunch

The question, then, is why the ball started falling in the first place. How did something – composed of equal positive and negative parts, mind you – come from nothing?

 

Physicists aren't exactly sure, but their best guess is that the extreme positive and negative quantities of energy randomly fluctuated into existence. "Quantum theory, and specifically Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, provide a natural explanation for how that energy may have come out of nothing," wrote Filippenko and Pasachoff.

 

They continued, "Throughout the universe, particles and antiparticles spontaneously form and quickly annihilate each other without violating the law of energy conservation. These spontaneous births and deaths of so-called 'virtual particle' pairs are known as 'quantum fluctuations.' Indeed, laboratory experiments have proven that quantum fluctuations occur everywhere, all the time."

 

Cosmologists have constructed a theory called inflation that accounts for the way in which a small volume of space occupied by a virtual particle pair could have ballooned to become the vast universe we see today. Alan Guth, one of the main brains behind inflationary cosmology, thus described the universe as "the ultimate free lunch."

 

In a lecture, Caltech cosmologist Sean Carroll put it this way: "You can create a compact, self-contained universe without needing any energy at all."”

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Friday, 11 August 2017 3:02 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kashyap wrote:

"Now, from physics point of view, beginning of our observable universe with a very small patch of vacuum having zero total energy seems ok. Majority (not all) physicists will go along with this. This needs idea of inflationary scenario"

i) The mass and gravitational energy of our observable and non-observable universe is very very large on the infinity ends. How such an infinite energy manifest from almost zero energy of a small patch of vacuum.

ii) Very very rapid expansion hypothesized in the cosmic inflation necessitates the requirement of an ultra strong inflation field. From where such a ultra strong inflationary field emerge when quantum vaccum has almost zero energy.

iii) Though gravitational and mass energy be having the opposite effects but this does not means that any of these energy is zero or negative. From the ontological point of view, any of the energies need to be positive implying the presence of some positive existential stuff. How zero energy of the quantum vacuum can lead to the manifestation of infinite positive energies of each of  the gravitational energy and mass energy?

To illustrate the above point further, it is right that mathematically +2 when combined with -2 is zero. But the absolute values of each of +2 and -2 is 2. The absolute value of both the mass energy and gravitational energy represents their ontological existential stuff of these energies. The way from 0, we can't have the absolute values of  each of +2 and -2 i.e 2 and 2 or 4, similarly from the zero energy of the quantum vacuum also, we can not derive the ontological existential stuff of each of the gravitational and mass energy -- ea h of each will be positive.

Kashyap wrote further:

Quantum vacuum is a very complicated object; it has to have fluctuating quantum fields governed by laws of nature. Our known universe is supposed to have come from a wild quantum fluctuation

i) Which nature and which Laws of nature in the quantum vacuum? From where any such laws will emerge out  and in which form (ontological existence) such laws will exist? 

It is a common observation that Laws pertaining to any entity exist either in the consciousness ( from where such laws take birth) or in that entity itself. Such laws can't exist in any other 3rd entity.

ii) Universe coming out from some wild quantum fluctuation!  Wild quantum fluctuation  gives the connotation of some accident or hit and trial. This negates the whole concept of the universe emanating out as per some Laws/Rules. We observe in nature that all phenomena, at least in the classical world, are governed by some Laws/Rules. If it is so, why and how the origin of the world be governed as some accident or hit and trial?

iii) Intuitively, we can easily infer that order to disorder can be the game in the universe and not from disorder to order. That is why increase in entropy is a Law of Nature. The hypothesis of the creation of the universe from some wild fluctuation gives the connotation of disorder to order which does not seem to find favour with the game of the universe.

It is in view of above that I have often mentioned that the whole hypothesis of the creation of the universe from quantum vacuum creates more problems than it solves.

Vnod Sehgal

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 4:05 AM, Siegfried Bleher <SBl...@msn.com> wrote:

Dear Bruno,

Thank you for your considered response.  It may take me a few days  to digest and comment, as the idea of 'mechanism' as distinct from materialism is new to me.  I have downloaded a paper of yours from academia.edu, which I hope clarifies the subject.  What I would say for now is that quantum mechanics is not unique in physics in involving consciousness, maybe unique in explicitly requiring consideration of consciousness.  That is, classical mechanics includes consciousness implicitly in mathematically representing what I would say amounts to 'the structures of perception', how we see and conceptualize change, point of view (i.e. reference frame), and so on.  

Best wishes,

Siegfried

Sent from Outlook

---

From: online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>

Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 9:49 AM

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com

 

Dear Siegfried,

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 3:31 PM, "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:

 

Dear Vinod and Vimal,

If you forgive me for jumping into  your debate, in this case I agree with Vinod that,

“The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations”.

GR just says that matter curves (distorts) space time. It does not say that there can be no space without matter or radiation. In fact de Sitter universe keeps on expanding with no matter, just a positive cosmological constant. Forget about models of inflation, even now, there is huge amount of interstellar space where there is practically no or extremely little matter or energy. Interstellar space is practically vacuum e.g. you may run into a molecule every few miles! It is possible that I may have  misunderstood your disagreement!

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

 

From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 1:45 PM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; George Weissmann <georg...@aol.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

 

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

Sehgal: The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations is based upon some scientific arguments and not mere speculation. If we trust that cosmic inflation and BB theory of the creation of the universe is correct, there is all the possibility that there may be many swathes of the universe having NIL matter and energy/radiations. The BB was followed immediately with a superluminal expansion of space but matter and energy within space cannot travel more than the speed of light. In other words, at the time of the cosmic inflation of space, matter/energy expanding with it might not have kept pace with the expansion of the space. This will result in the creation of some territories of space devoid of any matter/energy.

 

Vimal: As per Wikipedia (as of 8 August 2017), “In physical cosmology, cosmic inflation, cosmological inflation, or just inflation, is a theory of the exponential expansion of space in the early universe. The inflationary epoch lasted from 10⁻³⁶ seconds after the conjectured Big Bang singularity to sometime between 10⁻³³ and 10⁻³² seconds after the singularity. Following the inflationary period, the Universe continues to expand, but at a less rapid rate.^[1]”

 

How big was the universe at the end of inflation? As per (FrankH, 2012), “So given a size of the currently observable universe, we can ask how big was that volume at any particular time in the past. According to this paper at the end of inflation the universe's scale factor was about 10⁻³⁰ smaller than it is today, so that would give a diameter for the currently observable universe at the end of inflation of 0.88 millimeters which is approximately the size of a grain of sand (See calculation at WolframAlpha). It is believed that inflation needed to expand the universe by at least a factor of 60 e-foldings (which is a factor of e⁶⁰). So using WolframAlpha again we find that the diameter of the universe before inflation would have been 7.7×10⁻³⁰ meters, which is only about 480,000 Planck lengths.”

 

My understanding is that (a) relativity rejects the existence of space-time independent of matter-energy, (b) cosmic inflation theory does not contradict Relativity theory, and (c) inflation does not contradict the prohibition of faster-than-light speed. Therefore, I disagree with you.

 

Sehgal: Even in the current era, there have been Yogis/Sages who have had the reproducible experiences of the Astral and Causal worlds in a quite vivid manner.

 

Vimal: Can you provide the names, addresses, and phone numbers of such yogis so that we can contact them directly? And/or bring them in this discussion forum to confront our queries. In my view, what they observe are simply their subjective experiences, which have their respective neural correlate(s)/basis.

 

Sehgal: But then we cannot say that this signal has emanated out from the darkness or there has been some actual interaction between the darkness and the brain. [Vimal’s paraphrase of Sehgal’s queries: Individual localized consciousness (soul, self) does not interact with Chitta-signal to experience the physical objects, i.e., Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sā ṅkhya do not interact, for example, the experience of darkness, which is a different kind of experience. Moreover, there are problems in the eDAM.]

 

Vimal: You are missing my point again. Darkness is simply a visual SE (like any other SE) that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE.

 

I disagree with your claim: Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya NEVER interact for performing any function or experience or for anything; just the proximity of Puruṣa and Prakṛti is enough, rest is all-automatic. One example is experiencing darkness, which is a different kind of experience.

 

Of course, darkness is a different kind of experience similar to redness is different from grayness or sweetness, but the processing of neural information thru the matching and selection of a specific SE (such as darkness vs. redness) related to SE is similar in their respective NNs as mentioned above.

 

In the eDAM, the “self” is the 1pp-mental aspect of the state of self-related NN. The external objects simply reflect or emit light, which gets converted into neural signals; then self-related signals interact with the object-related signals. Please note that physical signals interact with physical signals to avoid category mistake. A mental entity (such as self) cannot directly interact with a physical entity (such as an external object); otherwise, category mistake will be made. There is no light signal in pitch dark, which has nothing to do with my argument because the interaction is between neural signals, not with physical objects. Please, try to understand this point. That is why your half-knowledge in neuroscience and in the eDAM are causing you such a big problem to the extent you are losing all your credibility.

 

Sāṅkhya makes a serious category mistake. You are forcing that Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅ khya do not interact to avoid category mistake; this is where you are making a big mistake.

 

As far as I am concerned, the dualistic Sāṅkhya is 100% rejected because of its 11 problems whether you like it or not. To save it to some extent, it needs to be converted into a version of dual-aspect monism or that of the eDAM. 

 

What you call problems in the eDAM is simply your half-knowledge and misunderstanding and misconstruction. If you seriously read my at least the five articles related to 5 components of the eDAM, namely (Vimal, 2008), (Vimal, 2010a), (Vimal, 2013), (Vimal, 2015b), and (Vimal, 2016d),  then I can try helping you with further clarifications. 

 

Otherwise, it is your choice. In this case, as BMP’s implies, let us agree with humility, tolerance, and compassion for each other that we have disagreement using the concept of “unity in diversity”.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “In physics, a field is a physical quantity, typically a number or tensor, that has a value for each point in space and time.^[1][2][3] For example, […] an electric field can be thought of as a "condition in space"^[4] emanating from an electric charge and extending throughout the whole of space. When a test electric charge is placed in this electric field, the particle accelerates due to a force.” This implies that when the “Field of Awareness” (like an electric field) “permeates” Chitta (like a test charge), Chitta/Prakṛti intera cts with the “field of awareness”/Puruṣa.  

...

[Message clipped]  

 

 

 

 

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[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Vinod,

I maintain that, whatever differences there may be in the view points, dear (first name, you might add ji if you feel like!) is the polite and nice way to carry conversations further, especially while conversing at a distance.

Anyway, as I said before, our differences may be due to our attitudes.  Established physics (science in general) takes priority in my mind compared to whatever was thought or written thousands of years back.  I am certainly interested in Vedanta, Sankhya etc. Whenever talks on such subjects are available in my neighborhood, I go and listen and occasionally read about them also. (In fact a Vedantic scholar, from a city about 200 miles from here, has kindly agreed to come here once a month and talk on Vedanta for several hours. These days he is talking about Prashnopanishad!)  On the other hand you seem to have priority in believing such things even if it conflicts with established science. That is fine with me. Different people have different frames of mind.

Now as I said, I am talking about physical models of origin of universe for which there is majority consensus; surely not 100 percent! Nothing in science is 100 percent nor should it be. Scientists should be willing to drop their favorite model at the drop of a hat, when evidence is pointing against it.

I do not understand why we get hung up on sign of gravitational energy. Where you locate your zero for potential energy is arbitrary and results of calculation cannot change by changing location of zero. Since gravity is always attractive, it is convenient to set zero when objects are at infinite distance from each other. This makes gravitational energy negative when they are at any other distance. We teach this in Freshmen College and high school physics all the time. If there is a college nearby, you might talk to a physics professor. Of course once you choose location of zero, you cannot keep on changing during the calculation. This is some 400 years of wisdom since Newton’s time. NASA and ISRO send spacecraft all the time with this kind of calculations. Their success should be an evidence for correctness of these ideas! While I was writing this, I saw an e-mail by Vimal where he explains the negative sign in an elaborate way. As far as I can tell, there is nothing non-ontological about negative gravitational potential energy. This is just a book keeping method which is consistent.

Now, fluctuations in quantum fields come from uncertainty principle. When you confine quantum fields in a small space, the fields and energy will have to fluctuate. If you believe in quantum physics, there is no choice. How can our universe come about from a fluctuating quantum field is a subtle question; more philosophical than physics question. “This negates the whole concept of the universe emanating out as per some Laws/Rules.” No. This is completely consistent with uncertainty principle. If you believe in quantum physics, you have to believe in uncertainty principle. There is no choice! You cannot pick and choose in science. The whole science comes as a package! In a way this question is similar to the debate about evolution and creationism. Creationists would argue that if the complete blueprint of how to design life is known to God for example, it should not take 4 Billion years of trial and error to produce human beings.  Scientists, even believers, would say that is how the laws of nature operate.

The universe in the beginning had minimum entropy. It has been increasing ever since then. If there is a big crunch and start over, there will have to be some mechanism to reduce the entropy.

Again, all of this is consistent with the laws of physics as of today. They may look weird from our everyday experience. But we should not expect that universe should be consistent with what a little human being can rationalize from his/her everyday experience!!

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

 

From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 3:02 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

 

Kashyap wrote:

[Bruno Marchal]

Dear Siegfried,

On 11 Aug 2017, at 00:35, Siegfried Bleher wrote:

Thank you for your considered response.  It may take me a few days  to digest and comment, as the idea of 'mechanism' as distinct from materialism is new to me.  I have downloaded a paper of yours from academia.edu, which I hope clarifies the subject.

Good :)  I see it is my paper on Plotinus.

You might consider taking a look at the argument in 8 steps accessible here(*), which do not rely on some acquaintance with Plotinus and neo-platonism, which is usually considered as counter-intuitive (and indeed it is incompatible with Aristotle's "materialism" or "physicalism").

(*) http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html

 What I would say for now is that quantum mechanics is not unique in physics in involving consciousness, maybe unique in explicitly requiring consideration of consciousness.  That is, classical mechanics includes consciousness implicitly in mathematically representing what I would say amounts to 'the structures of perception', how we see and conceptualize change, point of view (i.e. reference frame), and so on.  

You are completely right. In fact any theory which assumes some third person describable reality to make prediction use implicitly an identity thesis of the type brain-mind. Some physicists seems to be aware of this, like Sean Carroll when he explains the "Boltzmann brain" problem. In such terms, what I explain is that Mechanism (which is roughly simply the idea that our bodies are digitalizable machines) entails an infinity of "Boltzmann brain in arithmetic", and it is hard to explain how a physical reality can by itself select the "computations" supporting consciousness), leading to the idea that we have to explain the appearance of the physical laws from a statistics on computations (seen from some first person point of view (that was the hard thing to make mathematically precise).

Feel free to ask any question. 

Best regards,

Bruno

To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/DM2PR12MB0045EF190294AA9347BE6021A2880%40DM2PR12MB0045.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Asingh2384]

Dear Ram and All:

The following statement in your e-mail is fundamentally incorrect:

“The positive exactly balances the negative, so, ultimately, there is no energy in the universe at all.”

The above is incorrect because if it were true then the gravitational pull would cause an instantaneous collapse/crunch of the universe mass in galaxies and stars. Further, the observed universe is observed to be expanding (Hubble Expansion) at an accelerating rate due to the anti-gravity or dark energy. The faraway galaxies are observed to be moving away at almost the speed of light exhibiting tremendous positive kinetic energy showing no sign of negative energy or pull of gravity. 

Just as a net positive energy is needed to launch a rocket into space against gravity, a net positive expansive energy is needed to cause the observed accelerated expansion of the universe to overcome gravitational pull of the masses in the universe.

Another evidence of the incorrectness of the Zero total energy of the universe is that the standard Big Bang model fails to predict 96% of the universe consisting of dark energy and dark matter. This 96% error in the Big Bang model is the direct result of the ignorance of the positive anti-gravity or dark energy.

In summary, the observed continued net accelerating Hubble expansion of the massive universe is evidence of its net positive energy. A universe consisting only of matter and negative gravitational energy would crunch and collapse into a black hole in no time.

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

 
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[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Thanks.

Do we have a better than BB model?
Consider 2 stars on opposite sides of third star then they may not collide,
So arrangement in space-time may prevent the Big Crunch.

Ram

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 11, 2017, at 12:56 PM, 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> D.

[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Avatar,

I do not understand why we get hung up on sign of gravitational energy. Where you locate your zero for potential energy is arbitrary and results of calculation cannot change by changing location of zero. When you throw a ball up with some kinetic energy, it keeps on going up for a while in spite of gravity pulling it down. You can set the gravitational potential energy  zero anywhere, at the top of the flight or at the bottom of the flight.. You can do the calculation of trajectory of a ball thrown up with zero total (kinetic + potential energy) and get the same result as the case when you set total energy as positive at the beginning of flight. You have to watch out for sign of gravitational potential energy. This is done in elementary physics text books. Since gravity is always attractive, it is convenient to set it as zero when objects are at infinite distance from each other. This makes gravitational energy negative when they are at any other distance. We teach this in Freshmen College and high school physics all the time. Of course once you choose location of zero, you cannot keep on changing during the calculation. This is some 400 years of wisdom since Newton’s time. NASA and ISRO send spacecraft all the time with this kind of calculations. Their success should be an evidence for correctness of these ideas!  Ram (Vimal) explains the negative sign in an elaborate way. As far as I can tell, there is nothing non-ontological about negative gravitational potential energy. This is just a book keeping method which is consistent.

Now for expansion of universe, zero total starting energy is no problem.. Expansion comes from kinetic energy. Gravity opposes expansion but becomes weaker as the universe expands. The theory is that initial exponential expansion came from the inflaton field, (in a way similar to throwing a ball up) which is similar but may or may not be related to the current accelerated expansion brought out by repulsive cosmological constant (cc). As you know, gravity and cc oppose each other. For the first 8 B years or so , the gravity was stronger than cc. In fact there is astronomical evidence that the expansion rate was slowing down in the first 8 B years or so. Only in the last 5 B years the expansion rate has accelerated because of dominance of cc over gravity.

As for dark matter and dark energy your complaint is right. At present, physics does not understand it completely. Physicists are trying hard to understand them. But the answer is not to throw away the principles which have been understood for hundreds of years. Your new theory has to explain everything that the old theory did! In a way this is like problem with the roof of a two story house. Suppose 96 percent of the roof is leaky and you do not know where the water is coming from. The answer is to rebuild the roof, not tear down the house from its foundation and the first two floors!

Best Regards.

Kashyap

[Asingh2384]

Dear Ram:

I have attached my papers to my earlier e-mails to this forum, but here it is attached again. These papers contain other published references.

Thanks

Avtar

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>; vinodsehgal1955 <vinodse...@gmail.com>; vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Avtar Singh <avs...@alum.mit.edu>
Cc: vvimaldhye <vvima...@gmail.com>; sisir.sisirroy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 10, 2017 10:32 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Avtar, 

Thanks for the information.

Kindly email me few articles supporting each of your claims and rejecting the claims of the references I mentioned in my previous email. Perhaps, you may like to update the information in Wikipedia related to BBM, especially Big Bang.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Thursday, 10 August 2017 12:18 PM, "'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Dear Ram:

Standard Big Bang model (BBM) assumption of the net zero energy of the universe is fundamentally wrong as evidenced by the missing 96% (dark energy and dark matter) universe that the standard model fails to predict. Further, the following unresolvable inconsistencies and paradoxes of the BBM (including GR and QM) destroy its credibility as a universal theory:

1.      Quantum gravity?

2.      Parallel universes (undermines the unique set of universal laws that is the foundation of physics)?

3.      The so-called quantum ZPF (Zero-point Field) is 120 orders of magnitude off (higher) than the observed energy in the empty space (cosmological constant). (Quantum ZPF is not the real zero point of the universe as claimed)?

4.      Observer or measurement paradox (undermines credibility of all quantum observations)?

5.      Black hole singularity (undermines GR predictions at the beginning of the universe)?

 

6.      Superluminous (V>C) inflation (violates relativity?

7.      Photon Zero mass in standard model but positive finite energy/momentum violate relativity and equivalence of mass-energy and momentum laws?

8.      Well-established relativity of space-time negates an absolute instant of time zero? Clock either ticks continuously or stops; in either case it never reads time = 0. Zero time or beginning has no physical basis?

9.      BBM’s 4% success rate of universe prediction kills the credibility of the standard model as a universal theory?

Hence, all the arguments using standard BBM model to explain consciousness, Prakriti, Brahma, nothingness, creation, or any physical/spiritual concepts etc have no more than 4% credibility on a universal basis. If you or I score 4% on our physics exam, it would be regarded as a serious failure.

Unfortunately this the sorry state of the BBM standard model. However, these deficiencies can be fixed via integrating the missing physics of spontaneous mass-energy conversion or equivalence into relativity theory that also explains inner workings of QM as well as resolve many of the current paradoxes of physics and cosmology.

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 10, 2017 1:15 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 4:49 PM, "'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Dear Vinod and Kashyap ji,

 

Thanks. I am combining our discussion in many threads in here in this thread so that we do not need to open other threads.

 

[1] Sehgal: The real power of experience/awareness is inbuilt in consciousness and NOT in the astral mind and senses. Due to the presence of the non-emergent fundamental awareness in the consciousness, it does not interact with the physical and therefore no category mistake take place. Otherwise, also for the interaction, both the entities should have some discrete parts and there should be some emergent phenomenon. Awareness is not an emergent phenomenon and consciousness is also indivisible holistic fundamental ontological existence.  So there is no interaction and no category mistake. […] Our main point of discussion was the direct interaction between the darkness and the brain.  […] I had elaborated at length along with analogies as to how the consciousness [soul] does not interact/associate with the signal of thoughts/experience due to the presence of a non-emergent indivisible infinite field of awareness [OOO God] in the consciousness out of space/time. I also indicated that interaction is required where the phenomenon is an emergent one but awareness in the consciousness has been fundamental -- it was always manifest out of space/time. […] [The 10 problems of the eDAM. Rest is repetitions.]

 

Vimal: Perhaps, the “non-emergent fundamental awareness” is also called the primal entity Brahman, which is a dual-aspect entity in the eDAM.

 

My understanding is that Brahman has been interpreted differently to some extent by 7 different schools: 6 sub-schools of monistic Vedānta and dualistic Sāṅkhya and they have a history of never ending heated debates; so our debate is not surprising. I suggest that you visit Jagadguru Padmashri Rambhadracharya ji at Chitrakut. He also has Ph.D. from Kasi (Varanasi) and being blind he has memorized all Vedas, Upanishads, Gīta, and Ramayana. I have visited him; he is a very intelligent saint. He will explain you further the problems of Sāṅkhya and Advaita. He is an expert in theist top-down approach based cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita (qualified non-dualism) and interpreted Upanishads and Gīta in this sub-school of Vedānta. The Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita (eDAM) is similar to cit-acit Viśiṣṭādvaita except the eDAM is based on scientific bottom-up approach.

 

Discreteness is not necessary for interaction; fields can also interact; as a matter of fact, particles are excited modes of fields as per QFT.  It does not matter; both interactions are present both in emerged entities and non-emerged fundamental entities. For example, the ZPF is non-emerged fundaments entity but particles can interact; for example, an electron can interact with ZPF.

 

I agree with you that there is no the direct interaction between the darkness and the brain because darkness is NOT an object or stimuli; darkness is a subjective experience as I mentioned many times, and there is no stimulus to interact in pitch dark. For experiences we do not need external stimuli; in dreams, there are no external stimuli and still, we have vivid experience. Thus, you cannot take darkness experience to prove that the “self” (soul, the localized Puruṣa) and “chitta” (long-term memory or LTM signal represented in the fictitious causal world of Prakṛti) do not interact for an experience. Why? This is because in my example, in the eDAM, (a) “self” (mental aspect of the self-related state) is equivalent to the localized Puruṣa and (b) the resultant of the interaction between endogenous FF signals (representing no light stimuli in pitch dark) and cognitive LTM based FB signals is equivalent to the chitta-signal (causal body of Prakṛti); they need to interact without making a category mistake. In the eDAM, since the mental and physical aspects are inseparable and the information is the same in both aspects, the self-related neural signal has to interact with the resultant to select from LTM and then the “self” experiences the specific SE (such as darkness). For further detail, see (Vimal, 2010c). It is not only nonsense but objectionable nonsense (I borrowed Einstein’s words) to say that an isolated system (soul) can experience the external objects without interacting with the objects. Remember again, darkness is NOT an object; darkness is a subjective experience and hence brain cannot interact with darkness because there is nothing to interact; it is all pitch dark.

 

As I mentioned in my previous emails, the so-called 10 problems of the eDAM are basically 10 queries because of misunderstanding and misconstructions of the eDAM and because you look at it from the eyes of Sāṅkhya and materialism, which I have discussed with you over 2 years and clarified many times. Therefore, the prerequisite is reading at the least my 5 articles. Then if any other colleague asks me then I will clarify. Sometimes, I ask myself why I am still interacting with you. The answer I get that you seem to represent millions of people who might have similar half-knowledge (little or no knowledge of neuroscience) based superstitious religious beliefs. So if I am somehow able to convince you then I can say to others that read our discussion.

 

[2] Vasavada: The general agreement is that there was a very small patch of vacuum just at the time of big bang before inflation started. So some form of space was there. It had probably one unified quantum field. Later on, this field was split into a number of fields. If in the beginning there is just one field, you can draw parallel with Brahman. That would be self-interacting. If there are more than one quantum fields before inflation, then surely they will be interacting with each other. There are large numbers of models, probably one for each physicist working on this!!! Anyway, I do not know what would correspond with Prakṛti and Puruṣa. Laws of nature were of course there in some abstract form. Can you call them Puruṣa and quantum field Prakṛti?

 

Vimal: It seems that you also agree that an interaction between the “self” and the object is needed for the “self” to experience the object. Isolating the “self” from the object can not entail the “self” to experience the object. In simple language, we cannot experience the object if we are isolated from the object; we need to look at it to experience it, which involves interaction.

 

One could ask: what was surrounding the very small patch of vacuum? Was it infinite vacuum, just “nothing”, or something else? Were there quantum fluctuations in the very small patch? The patch should be smaller than 0.88 mm); the diameter of the currently observable universe was 0.88 mm at the end of initial inflation (10⁻³² seconds after Big Bang). If you are postulating a single unified quantum field in the beginning, then it is another name for the primal entity (Brahman); its states are dual-aspect entities in the eDAM framework.

 

My understanding is that all the laws are inherent in Brahman (the primal entity). In the top-down approach, Brahman is the OOO God (eternal fully manifested consciousness). In the bottom-up science based approach starts with unmanifested Brahman (with “nothing”) before Big Bang. My understanding is that Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad also starts with “nothing”. Here, “nothing” means vacuum field without “matter” (Krauss, 2012).

 

In my view, since dualism has 11 serious problems (Vinod ji may not agree because he clings to his own view), I prefer the least problematic extended dual-aspect monism (eDAM). In this email, I am trying to interpret/convert Sāṅkhya in the eDAM to make it least problematic.

 

In the eDAM, a state of an entity is a dual-aspect entity. Both aspects are inseparable. Therefore, the unmanifested state of the primal entity (Brahman) is also a dual-aspect entity. There are two types of classification of entities: eastern and western.

 

In the eastern classification, there are two groups of entities: (i) experiencer and (ii) the rest of entities which are non-experiencer. Its experiencer aspect is called Puruṣa and its non-experiencer (jaḍa, such as physical, astral and causal bodies) aspect is Prakṛti.

 

In the western classification, there are also two groups of entities: (i) physical and (ii) the rest of entities which are non-physical. The non-physical is called mental. Its physical aspect is the physical bodies of Prakṛti and its mental aspect includes Puruṣa/experiencer, experiences, and functions (astral and causal bodies of Prakṛti). 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 9:37 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ram writes to Kashyap:

"Thanks for the information. This means that the large swathes of space are like vacuum field with quantum fluctuations (QFs), in analogy to the usual vacuum field with QFs.

 

Either way is fine with my argument that, in Sāṅkhya, (a) Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛti must interact for Cosmic Fire or Big Bang, and (b) localized Puruṣa (soul, self) must interact with Chitta (Prakṛti) to experience objects.

 

In the eDAM, the self is the 1pp-mental aspect of a self-related state of a mind-brain system, which has neural correlates/basis (such as cortical and subcortical midline structures) as its inseparable 3pp-physical aspect.

For the self to experience a specific SE, such as redness (or darkness), there is the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of the interaction/matching between (i) exogenous or endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a stimulus (or a lack of any external light stimulus) and (ii) cognitive FB (feedback) signals. If the matching is successful, the "self" selects the specific matched SE from the LTM and experiences it. For detail, please see (Vimal, 2010a). In any case, interaction is always involved." 

The presence of large swathes of empty spaces, devoid of matter and energy, has nothing to do with the Purusha and Prakriti or their interaction. This empty large space of the physical world is engulfed in the astral world which has its own space. The entire astral world along with its space is engulfed in the causal world and its space. And all the 3 worlds -- physical, astral and causal are engulfed in the cosmic consciousness ( Brahmana). Brahman( cosmic consciousness) is self-sustaining, fundamental, non-emergent and is not engulfed in any other space. Just visualize an ocean extending infinitely in width and breadth and also in depth. so might be the cosmic consciousness.

Vinod Sehgal

Sehgal: But then we cannot say that this signal has emanated out from the darkness or there has been some actual interaction between the darkness and the brain. [Vimal’s paraphrase of Sehgal’s queries: Individual localized consciousness (soul, self) does not interact with Chitta-signal to experience the physical objects, i.e., Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya do not interact, for example, the experience of darkness, which is a different kind of experience. Moreover, there are problems in the eDAM.]

 

Vimal: You are missing my point again. Darkness is simply a visual SE (like any other SE) that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE.

 

I disagree with your claim: Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya NEVER interact for performing any function or experience or for anything; just the proximity of Puruṣa and Prakṛti is enough, rest is all-automatic. One example is experiencing darkness, which is a different kind of experience.

 

Of course, darkness is a different kind of experience similar to redness is different from grayness or sweetness, but the processing of neural information thru the matching and selection of a specific SE (such as darkness vs. redness) related to SE is similar in their respective NNs as mentioned above.

 

In the eDAM, the “self” is the 1pp-mental aspect of the state of self-related NN. The external objects simply reflect or emit light, which gets converted into neural signals; then self-related signals interact with the object-related signals. Please note that physical signals interact with physical signals to avoid category mistake. A mental entity (such as self) cannot directly interact with a physical entity (such as an external object); otherwise, category mistake will be made. There is no light signal in pitch dark, which has nothing to do with my argument because the interaction is between neural signals, not with physical objects. Please, try to understand this point. That is why your half-knowledge in neuroscience and in the eDAM are causing you such a big problem to the extent you are losing all your credibility.

 

Sāṅkhya makes a serious category mistake. You are forcing that Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya do not interact to avoid category mistake; this is where you are making a big mistake.

I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding of Sāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna,  Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya (or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “In physics, a field is a physical quantity, typically a number or tensor, that has a value for each point in space and time.^[1][2][3] For example, […] an electric field can be thought of as a "condition in space"^[4] emanating from an electric charge and extending throughout the whole of space. When a test electric charge is placed in this electric field, the particle accelerates due to a force.” This implies that when the “Field of Awareness” (like an electric field) “permeates” Chitta (like a test charge), Chitta/Prakṛti interacts with the “field of awareness”/Puruṣa.  

...

[Message clipped]  

 

 

 

 

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[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

I agree with Kashyap.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Asingh2384]

Dear Kashyap:

While I have no problem with text books calling stored energy as negative energy since it can be harnessed to convert to kinetic, thermal , or mechanical energy later. But to launch a rocket, sum of both positive gravitational potential energy (GPE = mgh) plus positive kinetic energy (0.5mV*V) is needed to be applied or input from the rocket jet force. The negative GPE (-mgh) cannot launch a rocket.  Rather the stored energy or negative energy of a rocket could only allow a rocket to fall to the ground or release a spring to come to its neutral position. It always takes a positive energy to launch a rocket against gravity or compress a spring. Both GPE and KE of the rocket have the same positive sign for the launch 

Total launch energy = GPE+KE     (not -GPE+KE)

Sorry and respectfully I disagree with the negative gravitational energy causing or helping the observed accelerated cosmological expansion. Superluminous (V>C) inflation is a desperate attempt to compensate or hogwash this fundamental error and to hide the big bang singularity but that leads to another ridiculous consequence of multi-universe. Just one fundamental error (Zero total energy) or untruth leads to many untruths and paradoxes. So long as physicists keep ignoring this error, 96% of the house of the standard Big Bang model has to be rebuilt not just the roof. Big Bang model is a castle built on sand. You and others may choose to live with its 96% failure rate as much or as long you wish waiting for some miracle to happen with the invention of some new God particles in some unknown distant future. I am not holding my breath.

Best Regards

Avtar

-----Original Message-----
From: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Cc: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 11, 2017 11:17 am
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Avatar,

I do not understand why we get hung up on sign of gravitational energy. Where you locate your zero for potential energy is arbitrary and results of calculation cannot change by changing location of zero. When you throw a ball up with some kinetic energy, it keeps on going up for a while in spite of gravity pulling it down. You can set the gravitational potential energy  zero anywhere, at the top of the flight or at the bottom of the flight.. You can do the calculation of trajectory of a ball thrown up with zero total (kinetic + potential energy) and get the same result as the case when you set total energy as positive at the beginning of flight. You have to watch out for sign of gravitational potential energy. This is done in elementary physics text books. Since gravity is always attractive, it is convenient to set it as zero when objects are at infinite distance from each other. This makes gravitational energy negative when they are at any other distance. We teach this in Freshmen College and high school physics all the time. Of course once you choose location of zero, you cannot keep on changing during the calculation. This is some 400 years of wisdom since Newton’s time. NASA and ISRO send spacecraft all the time with this kind of calculations. Their success should be an evidence for correctness of these ideas!  Ram (Vimal) explains the negative sign in an elaborate way. As far as I can tell, there is nothing non-ontological about negative gravitational potential energy. This is just a book keeping method which is consistent.

Now for expansion of universe, zero total starting energy is no problem.. Expansion comes from kinetic energy. Gravity opposes expansion but becomes weaker as the universe expands. The theory is that initial exponential expansion came from the inflaton field, (in a way similar to throwing a ball up) which is similar but may or may not be related to the current accelerated expansion brought out by repulsive cosmological constant (cc). As you know, gravity and cc oppose each other. For the first 8 B years or so , the gravity was stronger than cc. In fact there is astronomical evidence that the expansion rate was slowing down in the first 8 B years or so. Only in the last 5 B years the expansion rate has accelerated because of dominance of cc over gravity.

As for dark matter and dark energy your complaint is right. At present, physics does not understand it completely. Physicists are trying hard to understand them. But the answer is not to throw away the principles which have been understood for hundreds of years. Your new theory has to explain everything that the old theory did! In a way this is like problem with the roof of a two story house. Suppose 96 percent of the roof is leaky and you do not know where the water is coming from. The answer is to rebuild the roof, not tear down the house from its foundation and the first two floors!

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

 

From: Asingh2384 [mailto:asing...@aol.com]

Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 12:57 PM

To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com; vinodse...@gmail.com; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: online_sa...@googlegroups.com; sisir.s...@gmail.com; matters-of-mi...@googlegroups.com; vvima...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Ram and All:

 

The following statement in your e-mail is fundamentally incorrect:

“The positive exactly balances the negative, so, ultimately, there is no energy in the universe at all.”

 

The above is incorrect because if it were true then the gravitational pull would cause an instantaneous collapse/crunch of the universe mass in galaxies and stars. Further, the observed universe is observed to be expanding (Hubble Expansion) at an accelerating rate due to the anti-gravity or dark energy. The faraway galaxies are observed to be moving away at almost the speed of light exhibiting tremendous positive kinetic energy showing no sign of negative energy or pull of gravity. 

 

Just as a net positive energy is needed to launch a rocket into space against gravity, a net positive expansive energy is needed to cause the observed accelerated expansion of the universe to overcome gravitational pull of the masses in the universe.

 

Another evidence of the incorrectness of the Zero total energy of the universe is that the standard Big Bang model fails to predict 96% of the universe consisting of dark energy and dark matter. This 96% error in the Big Bang model is the direct result of the ignorance of the positive anti-gravity or dark energy.

 

In summary, the observed continued net accelerating Hubble expansion of the massive universe is evidence of its net positive energy. A universe consisting only of matter and negative gravitational energy would crunch and collapse into a black hole in no time.

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Matters Of Mind <matters...@googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 11, 2017 7:47 am

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Vinod ji,

 

What's the Total Energy In the Universe?

As per (Wolchover, 2011), “Considering the amount of energy packed in the nucleus of a single uranium atom, or the energy that has been continuously radiating from the sun for billions of years, or the fact that there are 10^80 particles in the observable universe, it seems that the total energy in the universe must be an inconceivably vast quantity. But it's not; it's probably zero.

Light, matter and antimatter are what physicists call "positive energy." And yes, there's a lot of it (though no one is sure quite how much). Most physicists think, however, that there is an equal amount of "negative energy" stored in the gravitational attraction that exists between all the positive-energy particles. The positive exactly balances the negative, so, ultimately, there is no energy in the universe at all.

Negative energy?

Theory of Everything (New Millennium 2002): "Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less [positive] energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together," he wrote.

 

Since it takes positive energy to separate the two pieces of matter, gravity must be using negative energy to pull them together. Thus, "the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero."

 

Astrophysicists Alexei Filippenko at the University of California, Berkeley and Jay Pasachoff at Williams College explain gravity's negative energy by way of example in their essay, "A Universe From Nothing": "If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero."

 

In other words, the ball's positive energy increases, but at the same time, negative energy is added to the Earth's gravitational field. What was a zero-energy ball at rest in space later becomes a zero-energy ball that is falling through space.

 

The universe as a whole can be compared to this ball. Initially, before the big bang, the universe-ball was at rest. Now, after the big bang, it is falling: light and matter exist, and they are moving. And yet, because of the negative energy built into the gravity field created by these particles, the total energy of the universe remains zero.

 

Ultimate free lunch

The question, then, is why the ball started falling in the first place. How did something – composed of equal positive and negative parts, mind you – come from nothing?

 

Physicists aren't exactly sure, but their best guess is that the extreme positive and negative quantities of energy randomly fluctuated into existence. "Quantum theory, and specifically Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, provide a natural explanation for how that energy may have come out of nothing," wrote Filippenko and Pasachoff.

 

They continued, "Throughout the universe, particles and antiparticles spontaneously form and quickly annihilate each other without violating the law of energy conservation. These spontaneous births and deaths of so-called 'virtual particle' pairs are known as 'quantum fluctuations.' Indeed, laboratory experiments have proven that quantum fluctuations occur everywhere, all the time."

 

Cosmologists have constructed a theory called inflation that accounts for the way in which a small volume of space occupied by a virtual particle pair could have ballooned to become the vast universe we see today. Alan Guth, one of the main brains behind inflationary cosmology, thus described the universe as "the ultimate free lunch."

 

In a lecture, Caltech cosmologist Sean Carroll put it this way: "You can create a compact, self-contained universe without needing any energy at all."”

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

 

On Friday, 11 August 2017 3:02 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Kashyap wrote:

 

"Now, from physics point of view, beginning of our observable universe with a very small patch of vacuum having zero total energy seems ok. Majority (not all) physicists will go along with this. This needs idea of inflationary scenario"

 

i) The mass and gravitational energy of our observable and non-observable universe is very very large on the infinity ends. How such an infinite energy manifest from almost zero energy of a small patch of vacuum.

 

ii) Very very rapid expansion hypothesized in the cosmic inflation necessitates the requirement of an ultra strong inflation field. From where such a ultra strong inflationary field emerge when quantum vaccum has almost zero energy.

 

iii) Though gravitational and mass energy be having the opposite effects but this does not means that any of these energy is zero or negative. From the ontological point of view, any of the energies need to be positive implying the presence of some positive existential stuff. How zero energy of the quantum vacuum can lead to the manifestation of infinite positive energies of each of  the gravitational energy and mass energy?

 

To illustrate the above point further, it is right that mathematically +2 when combined with -2 is zero. But the absolute values of each of +2 and -2 is 2. The absolute value of both the mass energy and gravitational energy represents their ontological existential stuff of these energies. The way from 0, we can't have the absolute values of  each of +2 and -2 i.e 2 and 2 or 4, similarly from the zero energy of the quantum vacuum also, we can not derive the ontological existential stuff of each of the gravitational and mass energy -- ea h of each will be positive.

 

Kashyap wrote further:

 

 

Quantum vacuum is a very complicated object; it has to have fluctuating quantum fields governed by laws of nature. Our known universe is supposed to have come from a wild quantum fluctuation

 

i) Which nature and which Laws of nature in the quantum vacuum? From where any such laws will emerge out  and in which form (ontological existence) such laws will exist? 

 

It is a common observation that Laws pertaining to any entity exist either in the consciousness ( from where such laws take birth) or in that entity itself. Such laws can't exist in any other 3rd entity.

 

ii) Universe coming out from some wild quantum fluctuation!  Wild quantum fluctuation  gives the connotation of some accident or hit and trial. This negates the whole concept of the universe emanating out as per some Laws/Rules. We observe in nature that all phenomena, at least in the classical world, are governed by some Laws/Rules. If it is so, why and how the origin of the world be governed as some accident or hit and trial?

 

iii) Intuitively, we can easily infer that order to disorder can be the game in the universe and not from disorder to order. That is why increase in entropy is a Law of Nature. The hypothesis of the creation of the universe from some wild fluctuation gives the connotation of disorder to order which does not seem to find favour with the game of the universe.

 

It is in view of above that I have often mentioned that the whole hypothesis of the creation of the universe from quantum vacuum creates more problems than it solves.

 

Vnod Sehgal

 

 

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 4:05 AM, Siegfried Bleher <SBl...@msn.com> wrote:

Dear Bruno,

 

Thank you for your considered response.  It may take me a few days  to digest and comment, as the idea of 'mechanism' as distinct from materialism is new to me.  I have downloaded a paper of yours from academia.edu, which I hope clarifies the subject.  What I would say for now is that quantum mechanics is not unique in physics in involving consciousness, maybe unique in explicitly requiring consideration of consciousness.  That is, classical mechanics includes consciousness implicitly in mathematically representing what I would say amounts to 'the structures of perception', how we see and conceptualize change, point of view (i.e. reference frame), and so on.  

 

Best wishes,

 

Siegfried

 

Sent from Outlook

 

---

From: online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>

Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 9:49 AM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

 

Dear Siegfried,

 

 

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com] 

Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 4:18 PM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com
Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Sehgal: But then we cannot say that this signal has emanated out from the darkness or there has been some actual interaction between the darkness and the brain. [Vimal’s paraphrase of Sehgal’s queries: Individual localized consciousness (soul, self) does not interact with Chitta-signal to experience the physical objects, i.e., Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sā ṅkhya do not interact, for example, the experience of darkness, which is a different kind of experience. Moreover, there are problems in the eDAM.]

 

Vimal: You are missing my point again. Darkness is simply a visual SE (like any other SE) that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE.

 

I disagree with your claim: Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya NEVER interact for performing any function or experience or for anything; just the proximity of Puruṣa and Prakṛti is enough, rest is all-automatic. One example is experiencing darkness, which is a different kind of experience.

 

Of course, darkness is a different kind of experience similar to redness is different from grayness or sweetness, but the processing of neural information thru the matching and selection of a specific SE (such as darkness vs. redness) related to SE is similar in their respective NNs as mentioned above.

 

In the eDAM, the “self” is the 1pp-mental aspect of the state of self-related NN. The external objects simply reflect or emit light, which gets converted into neural signals; then self-related signals interact with the object-related signals. Please note that physical signals interact with physical signals to avoid category mistake. A mental entity (such as self) cannot directly interact with a physical entity (such as an external object); otherwise, category mistake will be made. There is no light signal in pitch dark, which has nothing to do with my argument because the interaction is between neural signals, not with physical objects. Please, try to understand this point. That is why your half-knowledge in neuroscience and in the eDAM are causing you such a big problem to the extent you are losing all your credibility.

 

Sāṅkhya makes a serious category mistake. You are forcing that Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅ khya do not interact to avoid category mistake; this is where you are making a big mistake.

I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding ofSāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna,  Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya(or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “In physics, a field is a physical quantity, typically a number or tensor, that has a value for each point in space and time.^[1][2][3] For example, […] an electric field can be thought of as a "condition in space"^[4] emanating from an electric charge and extending throughout the whole of space. When a test electric charge is placed in this electric field, the particle accelerates due to a force.” This implies that when the “Field of Awareness” (like an electric field) “permeates” Chitta (like a test charge), Chitta/Prakṛti intera cts with the “field of awareness”/Puruṣa.  

...

[Message clipped]  

 

 

 

 

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[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Vinod,

We had enough discussion on negative sign of gravitational energy. I think, on this group; me, Ram, Siegfried and perhaps others represent conventional, traditional physics, some of it well established for hundreds of years and is in high school physics books. On this google group, all of us have respect for Vedanta and would like to understand what they were saying. But we do not wish to throw away established physics! If you, Avatar Singh or anyone else wants to change it, based on some ideas from Vedanta, according to your understanding, be my guest! This is a very tall order. Only one caution; these ontological ideas were thought out or even revealed thousands of years back when they had no experimental data. Previously, I gave an example of idea of eclipses brought up by Rahu and Ketu grabbing sun and moon in which our priests believe even in this twenty first century!! Your new theory will have to reproduce all the successes of the existing framework.  You will have to convince ISRO scientists who orbited Mangalyaan around Mars in the very first attempt using such calculations! We cannot have two physics theories, one based on effects and the other on ontology. In general most physicists maintain that we cannot trust ontological arguments, especially after quantum theory came up. We make models to explain experimental data and if they agree, that is the end of all arguments! We do not live in caves anymore! We use so much science from the time we get up until we go to bed, all of your replacement ideas will have to account for that!

Now it is true; there are unsolved problems in physics. Dark energy, dark matter, beginning from vacuum patch which has to undergo exponential expansion etc. are very thorny issues. But as I wrote to Avatar Singh yesterday,

“the answer is not to throw away the principles which have been understood for hundreds of years. Your new theory has to explain everything that the old theory did! In a way this is like problem with the roof of a two story house. Suppose 96 percent of the roof is leaky and you do not know where the water is coming from. The answer is to rebuild the roof, not tear down the house from its foundation and the first two floors!”

Changing sign of gravitational energy is not going to solve the problem! Again, anyone is welcome to suggest modification of existing theories. There should not be any censorship. But some modifications make sense and some do not. Although, in general, arguments are good for science and they should be encouraged.

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

 

From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 6:27 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

 

Dear Kashyapji,

 

Thanks.

 

I have sent another email to Dr. Ram today, with copy marked to you, regarding my views on the positive and negative energies.  What I want to reiterate that both attraction ( gravitation) and repulsion are some opposite mechanical effects of the energy. The energy manifests thru its various effects mechanical motion, heat and light and physics always studies these effects which can be detected by senses. But these effects per se are not causes, The cause behind all  these effects could be some ontological existence ( which in Physics we call as energy) but Physics does not go into the issue of the ontology of energy. So from the "effect" perspective, gravitational and mass energy may be positive and negative implying they can cancel each other and thus their net effect may be zero. However, from the "cause" perspective i.e ontological perspective due to which effects arise, energy has to be positive only implying having a positive existence Therefore, corresponding to the infinite ontology of the energy of our observable universe, there should also be infinite ontology at the primal stage also. This perspective seems to me quite logical.

 There is all the possibility  that at the primal stage, the infinite ontological existence might not be in the format of space/time and known physical energy and matter and that form of the infinite ontological existence unknown to the current Physics. After all, even in the current Physics 96% of the ontology of the universe is represented by the dark energy and dark matter. However, various hypothesis/theories dealing with the creation of the universe from vacuum, BBTs and Inflation fail to account for this 96% of the energy of the universe in form of dark energy and dark matter. After all how any theory of the universe can be called scientific if it is based on only 4% of the energy of the universe? And then dark energy/dark matter are not the inventions or hypothesis of some Saankhya or Upnishadic or Vedantic philosophies, which you say were written thousand of years ago. Dark energy and dark matter, representing majority 96% of the energy of the universe, are the inventions/hypothesis of this very Physics which proposes  hypothesis of the creation of the universe from quantum vacuum following by Big Bang and cosmic inflation. In my view, any scientific theory which does not take into account the dark matter and dark energy, representing 96% energy of the universe, can't be truly scientific since it  will be based on only 4% of the energy of the universe.

 

Regarding  Saankhyan/Upnishadic/Vedantic models for the creation of the universe, the primordial level for the creation is much deeper than the primordial level as adopted as adopted by the current scientific cosmological models. Between the primordial level of Saankhayan/Vedantic cosmological models and the primordial level of the current scientific cosmological models, large realms of the physical nature encompassing  the Causal and Astral Realm of nature. Corresponding to the cosmological realm of the Causal and Astral Realm, there are Causal and Astral bodies the way corresponding to the physical realm of nature ( represented by the baryonic matter and 4 forces), there is the physical body which survives for 40-50 or at the most for 100 years in the current period. The Causal and astral bodies survive the death of the physical body and recycle from birth to birth in a very long cycle of births and deaths. Anyway, the knowledge of the Astral and Causal realm ia achievable in the state of Samaadhi though by the current objective scientific methodology, it is not possible to detect and sense these realm of nature.

 

Regards.

 

Vinod Sehgal

 

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

Perhaps, your queries related to science have similar answers as those of my queries related to OOO-God theory. I asked few questions: what color OOO God will experience when He looks at a ripe-tomato. How do you derive 18 elementary particles from 5 Tanmātras? Or where from God gets infinite amount of energy? Or who created God?

 

Your answer was that we are not at the level of OOO God, so we cannot answer or God does not tell us. Similar answer can be given from science that we need further research on dark matter/energy, etc, and on the answers of “why” and “where from”.

 

Why are there spontaneous random fluctuations? Why Nature behaves stochastically? Where from do the virtual particles get energies and how? In my view, further research is needed as science is in infancy. OOO-God theory has been over 6000 years at the least, but do you have answers of my queries? No! So why do you expect science will have all the answers in just few hundred year?

 

The eDAM framework is based on whatever is available in science currently. At present time, BB from “nothing”/vacuum (no material entities and zero total energy) is the best available model although it has many problems. If, in future, there is a better model then the eDAM will be updated accordingly. The eDAM is not rigid like OOO God theory; it evolves as science evolves.

 

I guess, there are two groups in this forum: (1) OOO God theory group and (2) science/eDAM group; we should further research as we like.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

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Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

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[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Avtar,

Thanks.

Q: Where does the “positive expansive energy” come from? If you have any article please email me. 

I am currently in the process of reading your articles.

Thanks for the articles and links. I need to understand your framework first so please help me. The following quotes are from (Singh, 2017). So far, I have the following queries:

 

[1]. “What changes occur in the physical states of the brain a moment before and a moment after death that lead to the cessation of the biological consciousness? […] the brain malfunctions or breaks down, such as during a coma or death, the mind stops working ceasing the conscious experiences.”

 

Does this imply a brain is necessary for a conscious experience and if there is no brain, there is no conscious experience?

 

[2]. “The fact that every location in space and every moment of time in the universe is aware of the universal laws points to the existence of awareness of a universal mind or consciousness.”

 

Does this contradicts the above [1] in the sense brain is not necessary if “universal consciousness” also mean experiences and experiencer (such as the “self” in human being)? It seems that we need to define the terms before using them; otherwise, confusion will occur. What is “consciousness’ and what is the difference between “universal consciousness” and “biological consciousness”?

 

[3] “Furthermore, the presence of conscious beings and the prevailing cosmic order are not possible in a universe that is not conscious.”

 

Do you mean all living and non-living systems are conscious (as in panpsychism)?

 

You seem to reject materialism, so what is your metaphysics, idealism/Advaita, ‘interactive substance dualism’/‘dualistic Sāṅkhya’, or dual-aspect monism?

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Sunday, 13 August 2017 11:43 AM, Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Kashyap/Vinod/Ram:

 

The root cause of the missing 96% (dark energy/dark matter) from the current standard model Big Bang cosmology is complete ignorance of the positive expansive anti-gravitational energy of the universe. Because of this fundamental deficiency, Einstein proposed a fudge factor Cosmological Constant to fix the issue, and even today it remains as the only viable explanation of dark energy causing the observed accelerated expansion of the universe.

 

What I have tried to show that adding to relativity the missing physics of spontaneous mass/energy conversion observed in wave/particle complimentarity and mass/energy equivalence principle, solves this problem and provides a physical basis for Dark Energy or cosmological constant eliminating the artificial fudge factor as well as paradoxes/inconsistencies of physics and cosmology (GR, QM, standard model etc). Such an integrated approach predicts the observed expansion of the universe without the paradoxes of the Big Bang standard model and QM.  

 

Expansive energy cannot be artificially created from the mis-conceived negative gravitational energy. Gravitational energy could only cause an inward contracting collapse or crunch such as in a black hole but could not lead to the observed expansion of the universe. Positive expansion energy is required to create or store a gravitational potential energy (termed negative). Negative GPE has no existence of its own without the positive expansive energy. This fundamental misconception has led to various weird concepts such as inflation, multiple universes, fine tuning, dark energy, dark matter, big bang, and unexplained weirdness of QM including the collapse of the wave function, etc.  

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Sent: Sat, Aug 12, 2017 10:29 pm
Subject: Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Kashyapji,

From a conventional physicist's point of view, I can appreciate your arguments and perspective. However, you have addressed none of the key issues as raised by me viz

I) Signs as assigned to gravitational and mass energies to represent their opposing effects Vs ontological existences of energies.

ii) Cosmological models for the creation of the universe based upon quantum vacuum/BB/cosmic inflation taking into account only 4% of the energy of the universe.

iii) Mechanical motions, light, heat representing the effects of energy which are detectable/sensible by instruments but per se these effects not being energy. The cause behind these effects being the ontological existence of energy is neither positive nor negative. In view of this, corresponding to vast infinite energy of the observable universe, there should be vast infinite energy  at the primordial stage also. There is also the possibility that this vast infinite energy st the primordial stage might  not be in the form, as is known to the current science. It is on account of this that current cosmology starts  with zero known physical energy. But start  of universe with the zero energy has a lot of logical inconsistencies  and explanatory gaps, many of which mentioned by me but no solution forthcoming.

I, further, recognize your point of view that conventional physics is either incapable or not interested in addressing the above issues. However, will this very aspect of Physics make the issues as raised as invalid? Could you please point out in a specific manner where is the flaw in my arguments while raising these issues?

As I had indicated in my previous messages also that the Astral, Causal realms of nature and cosmic consciousness  can't be studied and developed as some objective scientific hypothesis  or theories simply due to the reasons that ontology  of these realms is not detectable by the objective scientific  methodology
as used by the contemporary. Science.

Regards

Vinod Sehgal

[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Vinod,

Rest assured, I am not ignoring the questions raised by you. But about ontological issues, I have to repeat as before, physicists cannot revise their models, based on someone’s ontological ideas. As it is clear from the discussions on this blog,  nobody knows what is reality and hence physicists have to leave that issue to philosophers. Only thing physicists can demand is mathematical consistency and agreement with experimental data. For most physicists the matter ends there.

Starting from elementary mechanics (Newton’s laws) energy is defined in a unique way. I understand you took some physics courses a number of years back. You may want to review them or you may want to talk to  a physics professor in a nearby college. If we were close by I would be glad to explain it by writing on a chalkboard. On e-mail it is not possible. In mechanics you start with definition of force (Newton’s laws) then define work and then energy as a body’s capacity to do work. This is then extended consistently to heat, light, electricity-magnetism and finally to atoms and sub nuclear matter. Then Newton’s laws are consistently revised to special and general relativity.  As we discussed before, signs of energy come out naturally in a consistent way. Gravity is attractive. So negative potential energy is natural and no problem. If energy due to motion, kinetic energy 0.5 mv^2 or mass energy mc^2 come out negative, that will be big disaster!!

“) Mechanical motions, light, heat representing the effects of energy which are detectable/sensible by instruments but per se these effects not being energy.”  Energy is associated with each object and it is exchanged between bodies like exchanging money between two persons. One person loses money in his bank (negative effect), the other person gains money (positive effect, increase in bank balance). There is no distinction between effect and energy. Thus starting with zero total energy is not a problem, once you agree that energy can be positive and negative. You have to get read of this idea in your mind that energy is something you hold in your hand! This may be the flaw in the argument.

Although there is no direct experimental evidence for dark matter and dark energy , there are plenty of indirect evidences. I cannot go through all of that in an e-mail. If you have time and interest you may want to read Wikipedia

Articles. Thus the situation is not as bad as you think. It is not that people are ignoring 96% of energy of the universe. After all subject like physics attracts plenty of intelligent people, although not much money is available!! They are constantly looking for a consistent model of universe.

As I said last time, from your daily life you have to admit success of some 400 years of physics (science in general).This is not to say that other things like religion, philosophy etc. are not important!

Best Regards.

Kashyap

From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 1:29 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

 

Dear Kashyapji,

From a conventional physicist's point of view, I can appreciate your arguments and perspective. However, you have addressed none of the key issues as raised by me viz

I) Signs as assigned to gravitational and mass energies to represent their opposing effects Vs ontological existences of energies.

ii) Cosmological models for the creation of the universe based upon quantum vacuum/BB/cosmic inflation taking into account only 4% of the energy of the universe.

iii) Mechanical motions, light, heat representing the effects of energy which are detectable/sensible by instruments but per se these effects not being energy. The cause behind these effects being the ontological existence of energy is neither positive nor negative. In view of this, corresponding to vast infinite energy of the observable universe, there should be vast infinite energy  at the primordial stage also. There is also the possibility that this vast infinite energy st the primordial stage might  not be in the form, as is known to the current science. It is on account of this that current cosmology starts  with zero known physical energy. But start  of universe with the zero energy has a lot of logical inconsistencies  and explanatory gaps, many of which mentioned by me but no solution forthcoming.

I, further, recognize your point of view that conventional physics is either incapable or not interested in addressing the above issues. However, will this very aspect of Physics make the issues as raised as invalid? Could you please point out in a specific manner where is the flaw in my arguments while raising these issues?

As I had indicated in my previous messages also that the Astral, Causal realms of nature and cosmic consciousness  can't be studied and developed as some objective scientific hypothesis  or theories simply due to the reasons that ontology  of these realms is not detectable by the objective scientific  methodology
as used by the contemporary. Science.

Regards

Vinod Sehgal

[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Vinod,

I  add the following for more clarification. Energy was defined in a precise manner in mechanics following Newton. It can be routinely converted into different forms, such as kinetic energy, potential energy due to location or configuration, heat, sound, electric, magnetic and so on. When a body has energy, it has capacity to exert forces on other bodies. For example, a ball resting on a table has positive, potential energy (PE) with respect to ground, because when it falls on your foot it can break your bone! Zero of PE can be taken to be at an arbitrary point. In calculation only differences in PE play a role. So it does not make any difference where  the location of your zero is. In the above example, I can take zero at ground level. Then PE of ball is positive. I can take zero of PE at the table also. Then ground level will have negative PE and PE of ball is zero on the table. For a system of particles it is convenient to take zero at infinity. Then gravitational (attractive) PE for bodies comes out to be negative for smaller distances not infinity. In case of electric forces, since they can be both attractive and repulsive, PE comes out negative or positive in attractive or repulsive cases respectively. So plus and minus signs in PE are natural!

After Newton’s mechanics, all natural sciences such as chemistry, biology adopted these definitions of energy. Applied sciences such as medical sciences and then engineering and technology followed these conventions, sometime with same or different units.

It may very well be that energy (Shakti?) has a different connotation in Vedanta. That is why all this confusion arose. I have even heard the word “psychic energy” . I do not know how it is defined. In any case I assure you that definition of energy in science is unique and there is no problem with it being positive or negative. You are disturbed by E(total ) =0. But that has kinetic energy positive and can lead to expansion. As I said before, a ball ( or a rocket) with a positive kinetic  energy will go up in spite of gravity pulling it down and its gravitational energy is negative on surface of earth  with our convention that it is zero at infinite distance from earth.

A repulsive cosmological constant or inflaton field at the beginning will add positive energy, but gravitational energy will be negative forever!  I trust this will be clarify the matter once for all!

Best Regards.

kashyap

 

From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vasavada, Kashyap V

Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>

Cc: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

[Paul Werbos]

On Aug 13, 2017 5:20 PM, "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:

. On e-mail it is not possible.

I was delighted to learn two months ago how to do serious equations even in email on the little tablet computer I am using right now in the Doha airport. But it does require a slight change in conventions just as the invention of FORTRAN did.

. If energy due to motion, kinetic energy 0.5 mv^2 or mass energy mc^2 come out negative, that will be big disaster!!

The possibility of negative mass-energy density is not nearly so crazy as some of the other things people have speculated about. In hard core classical field theory, using Lagrange-Euler equations and such, we usually do restrict our attention to systems where the energy functional is always positive except in vacuum where all fields are zero. Many of the PDE which are based on systems which permit negative energy do display catastrophic failures. It is much harder to prove things like stability without the positivity assumption. But mainly, we tend to assume positivity because there is no compelling empirical evidence yet to see how allowing negative energy would "buy us" anything, in predicting any actual experiments.

There has been a lot of discussion of "exotic matter" (matter with negative mass-energy density) by folks excited by how they could use it, in building faster than light spacecraft, if they could find the stuff. When I was in grad school, my teacher Schwinger was deeply interest for awhile in what to expect from "tachyons," a hypothetical type of particle expected to have negative mass-energy. But for now, there are more urgent obstacles we need to remove first in our understanding, even to clean up the important part physics addressing quantum electrodynamics (QED), the basis for the electronic and photonics industries.

Best of luck,  Paul

“) Mechanical motions, light, heat representing the effects of energy which are detectable/sensible by instruments but per se these effects not being energy.”  Energy is associated with each object and it is exchanged between bodies like exchanging money between two persons. One person loses money in his bank (negative effect), the other person gains money (positive effect, increase in bank balance). There is no distinction between effect and energy. Thus starting with zero total energy is not a problem, once you agree that energy can be positive and negative. You have to get read of this idea in your mind that energy is something you hold in your hand! This may be the flaw in the argument.

Although there is no direct experimental evidence for dark matter and dark energy , there are plenty of indirect evidences. I cannot go through all of that in an e-mail. If you have time and interest you may want to read Wikipedia

Articles. Thus the situation is not as bad as you think. It is not that people are ignoring 96% of energy of the universe. After all subject like physics attracts plenty of intelligent people, although not much money is available!! They are constantly looking for a consistent model of universe.

As I said last time, from your daily life you have to admit success of some 400 years of physics (science in general).This is not to say that other things like religion, philosophy etc. are not important!

Best Regards.

Kashyap

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[Asingh2384]

Dear Ram:

 

Q: Where does the “positive expansive energy” come from?

 

Positive expansions energy comes from transformation of mass to kinetic energy just like wave energy comes from a quantum particle. It also follows from the principle of mass-energy equivalence.

 

Please read my articles wherein this has been described mathematically.

 

Q: Does this imply a brain is necessary for a conscious experience and if there is no brain, there is no conscious experience?

 

A biological or sensual experience comes from the brain; no brain no biological senses and hence no biological conscious experience in spite of the eternal universal consciousness prevailing in the universe.

 

Q: Do you mean all living and non-living systems are conscious (as in panpsychism)? ……You seem to reject materialism, so what is your metaphysics, idealism/Advaita, ‘interactive substance dualism’/‘dualistic Sāṅkhya’, or dual-aspect monism?

 

I do not reject materialism but simply extend it to integrate it with the universal reality. Please do not try to label or assign an “…ism” to my work. I am doing only fundamental science based on the well-established laws of conservation and relativity. This approach provides a bridge between all “….isms” you mention providing a seemless vision of the wholesome reality of the universe. Any labeling would demean the wholesome integrated approach.

However, since universal reality is one and only one, genuine wholesome science and genuine spirituality are also same and not apart from each other. Various ".....isms" fall apart and get lost in the never land.

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[Asingh2384]

Dear Kashyap:

You are misapplying the text book knowledge to cosmology just as the standard model does.

Net positive energy is needed to create a bunch of particles of total mass m moving at velocity V from zero point (no mass and no gravity) state as given by the following equation:

 

Total net energy needed = mC*C + GPE +KE

All the above energies have a positive sign since the reference point is the Zero-point (Zero mass and Zero gravity} state. Since both mass and gravity are created together, mass and GPE are positive and additive. The kinetic energy of expansion has to come from the total energy (LHS) and not from the attractive pull of gravitational energy as assumed in the standard model. GPE cannot fuel the inflation or expansion of the universe; it can only fuel the black hole crunch.

 

The negative sign of potential energy used in physics text books refers to the direction of flow of energy and not its amount which is always positive. The so-called negative energy of a spring needs positive work done on it against its spring force. The negative potential energy of water stored behind a dam needs positive pump energy to pump up water to fill the dam. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH as some physicists/cosmologists claim causing the expansion of the universe. This very misconceived negative gravitational potential energy (FREE LUNCH) in the standard model cripples it from predicting the dark energy or 96% of the universe. Superluminous inflation is a direct misconception of this FREE LUNCH and equally invalid. Correcting this mistake or misapplication of the negative energy resolves inconsistencies and paradoxes of the standard model without any need for inflation, superfluous particles, parallel universes, singularities, quantum weirdness etc as well predicts the empirical data regarding the universe expansion.

 

The above facts and arguments are plain basic physics following the laws of conservation of mass, energy, and momentum and not derived from Vedanta or philosophy or ontology. It is not science to blindly follow the text book knowledge as religious scriptures.

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>

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[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Avtar,

 

Thanks for the articles and links. I need to understand your very interesting framework first so please help me. The following quotes are from (Singh, 2017). My first reading your article suggests me that I do not fully understand (perhaps misunderstood!) your framework. My queries are in blue texts.

 

[1]. Singh: “What changes occur in the physical states of the brain a moment before and a moment after death that lead to the cessation of the biological consciousness? […] the brain malfunctions or breaks down, such as during a coma or death, the mind stops working ceasing the conscious experiences.”

 

Vimal: Does this imply a brain is necessary for a conscious experience and if there is no brain, there is no conscious experience?

 

Singh: A biological or sensual experience comes from the brain; no brain no biological senses and hence no biological conscious experience in spite of the eternal universal consciousness prevailing in the universe.

 

Vimal: What are your comments on God, soul, astral and causal bodies related to Sāṅkhya and Vedānta? Can you derive 18 elementary particles from 5 tanmātras?

 

[2]. Singh: “The fact that every location in space and every moment of time in the universe is [are] aware of the universal laws points to the existence of awareness of a universal mind or consciousness.”

 

Vimal: Does this contradicts the above [1] in the sense brain is not necessary if “universal consciousness” also mean experiences and experiencer (such as the “self” in human being)? It seems that we need to define the terms before using them; otherwise, confusion will occur. What is your definition of “consciousness’ and what is the difference between “universal consciousness” and “biological consciousness”?

 

[3] Singh: “Furthermore, the presence of conscious beings and the prevailing cosmic order are not possible in a universe that is not conscious.”

 

Vimal: Do you mean all living and non-living systems are conscious (as in panpsychism)? You seem to reject materialism, so what is your metaphysics, idealism/Advaita, ‘interactive substance dualism’/‘dualistic Sāṅkhya’, or dual-aspect monism?

 

Singh: I do not reject materialism but simply extend it to integrate it with the universal reality. Please do not try to label or assign an “…ism” to my work. I am doing only fundamental science based on the well-established laws of conservation and relativity. This approach provides a bridge between all “….isms” you mention providing a seemless vision of the wholesome reality of the universe. Any labeling would demean the wholesome integrated approach. However, since universal reality is one and only one, genuine wholesome science and genuine spirituality are also same and not apart from each other. Various ".....isms" fall apart and get lost in the never land.

 

Vimal: In my view, all of us have some foundational (metaphysical) framework implicitly or explicitly where we like it or not. You wrote that you extended materialism, and in some sense your writing entails dual-aspect monism as well. Thus, it seems you are mixing two or many metaphysics; this method might work as long as you address the criticisms of colleagues wholeheartedly with humility and respect. Searle tried this method as well (mixing materialism and dualism) and had many criticisms. You may like to look at (Vimal, 2015a), where I interpret his Biological Naturalism (BN) (Searle, 2007) in terms of the eDAM to minimize the problems of BN.

 

I could also argue that I extended materialism (because I was initially a materialist) as physical aspect and idealism as mental aspect, and extended the old dual-aspect monism by addressing their problems; and then called the resultant as “extended dual-aspect monism (eDAM). Then, learned to some extent Indian philosophy and religions and then made two versions: atheist eDAM and theist eDAM.

 

[4] Singh: “The universal consciousness, however, prevails or exists unaffected by the malfunction of the individual brain, just like the electromagnetic spectrum generated from the radio station remains unaffected by the malfunctioning of the individual radio. This is evidenced by the eternal and non-local presence of the spontaneous (self-existent) universal laws or quantum wave functions irrespective of the death of the individual brains or conscious observers.”

 

Vimal: Do you mean that all natural laws (physical, biological and other laws) self-existent or inherent in Nature, which have nothing to do with OOO God? Quantum non-locality may be apparent (not true): there are 4 justifications for this hypothesis.

 

[5] Singh: “How does physics come into the picture within the context of our argument that there is indeed a fundamental universal consciousness or awareness in form of the universal laws beyond the neuro-biological mind?”

 

Vimal: Is this “fundamental universal consciousness or awareness” in the form of laws or is this OOO God (fully manifested consciousness as Vinod Sehgal claims) or is it in potential form (Universal potential Consciousness as the eDAM proposes)?

 

Is your framework is based on the (a) top-down approach (from OOO God to us, and from 5 tanmātras to 18 elementary particles) as in Vedānta and Sāṅkhya  OR (b) bottom-up approach using BB or (quasi-)steady state^[i] or other scientific model using theory of co-evolution and Buddhist dependent co-origination as in the eDAM.

 

[6] Singh: “As suggested above by Freeman Dyson, the two most fundamental aspects of the spontaneous decay of atoms are the spontaneity or the free will without any external causation and the decaying process wherein the fixed stationary mass transforms into the radiative kinetic energy in the form of alpha particles moving close to the speed of light. Thoughts in a contemplative or meditative human mind can be compared to the quantum particles that can decay at the free will of the person. This provides a common basis for the human mind and the micro-mind suggested by Dyson. Further, since the empty space in the universe is shown by quantum mechanics to be filled with particles that are born and decayed instantly at their free will (without an external causation), the argument of similarity between the human mind and the micro-mind can be extended to the macro- or the universal mind.”

 

Vimal: This seems consistent with the eDAM in the sense that the function of non-living inert entities such as a decaying atom having ‘free will’ as the functional sub-aspect of the mental aspect of the decaying-state of an atom, and the physical atoms as the inseparable physical aspect of the same state of the same atom. The information is the same in both aspects, which entails inseparability. They look different because perspectives of “viewing” are different: mental aspect from 1^st person perspective (1pp) and physical aspect is from 3^rd pp (3pp). McFadden’s consciousness electromagnetic information field (cemi field) theory and Craig Hamilton’s   views are also consistent with the eDAM.

 

[7] Singh: “While classical matter represents a static or bounded (by strong nuclear forces) form of consciousness in classical fixed space and time, the natural or unbounded consciousness represents free willed motion or pure kinetic energy in fully dilated relativistic space-time. This leads to the following scientific description of the universal consciousness: “Consciousness is the absolute kinetic energy (V=C) of the extreme kind, represented by the complimentary Zero Point state (eternal and non-local energy field) of the universe in a fully diluted mass, space, and time continuum.” ”

 

Vimal: This seems to imply that potentiality needs to be actualized, and hence you have bottom-up based approach similar to science and opposite to OOO-God theory.

 

[8] As per Wikipedia (as of 12 August 2017), “Quasi-steady state cosmology (QSS) was proposed in 1993 by Fred Hoyle, Geoffrey Burbidge, and Jayant V. Narlikar [(Hoyle, Burbidge & Narlikar, 1993)] as a new incarnation of the steady state ideas meant to explain additional features unaccounted for in the initial proposal. The theory suggests pockets of creation occurring over time within the universe, sometimes referred to as minibangs [MBs], mini-creation events, or little bangs.”

 

Vimal: In your framework (Singh, 2017), the sum of fractional mass energy (mC²), gravitational potential energy (GPE), and relativistic kinetic energy (RKE) remains constant at M₀C², which seems to imply that M₀C² is always constant from past to current to future; therefore, there is no onset of universe, the universe was the same all the time, i.e., our universe is eternal with total energy = M₀C².

 

If URM/RUE is one of the quasi-steady state (QSS) models, then how is URM/RUE related to Mini-Bangs (pockets of creation occurring over time within the universe) suggested by QSS model of (Hoyle, Burbidge & Narlikar, 1993).

 

[9] Singh: “It is further posited that a natural measure for the level of consciousness of a state is the degree of coupling or order in the local ZPF compared to the completely disordered field, or expressed differently, the information gain of the corresponding ZPF information state compared to the disordered initial state.”

 

Vimal: If there is no beginning (onset) of our universe, then what is the meaning of “initial state”? In your QSS URM model, it seems that there is no evolution, i.e., a life began about 4 billion years ago is incorrect: is this true?

 

[10] Vimal: In (Singh, 2017), the sum of fractional mass energy (mC²), gravitational potential energy (GPE), and relativistic kinetic energy (RKE) remains constant at M₀C², which seems to imply that M₀C² is always constant from the past to current to future; therefore, there is no onset of universe, the universe was the same all the time, i.e., our universe is eternal with total energy = M₀C².

 

If URM/RUE is one of the quasi-steady state (QSS) models, then how is URM/RUE related to Mini-Bangs (pockets of creation occurring over time within the universe) suggested by QSS model of (Hoyle, Burbidge & Narlikar, 1993).

 

[11] Singh: “While the quantum model entails a discrete boundary between the classical (unconscious) and quantum (conscious) system, URM depicts a wholesome and congruent continuum of all matter/mind/consciousness states extending from unconsciousness (V=0, R=0) to full consciousness (V=C, R~ ∞). Lower level consciousness states at small V (V/C <<1) and R are primarily matter/gravity dominated while the higher level (V/C~1 or large R) states are anti-gravity or cosmological constant (kinetic energy) dominated”.

 

Vimal: It is unclear what you mean by “unconsciousness (V=0, R=0) to full consciousness (V=C, R~ ∞)”. Literally, how at rest (velocity V =0) at the location of a human being (R=0) s/he is unconscious and at velocity V = C (speed of light) at a very large distance (R~ ∞) s/he is fully conscious? It makes no sense to me.

 

[12] Singh: “There is only one single whole universe, which encompasses multiple states (sub-universes) representing various relativistic (matter-energy-space-time) states of the one whole Zero-point energy. The so-called nothingness or vacuum actually represents the wholesomeness or everything-ness of the ZPS of consciousness.”

 

Vimal: The GPE, RKE, and mass-energy (mC²) vary with R from say any point (R=0) on earth with total energy M₀C² (sum of these energies) is constant with space and time. The so-called vacuum in your URM framework has the infinite amount of energy, which is very different from the claim total energy of universe = 0. Thus, there seems to be a contradiction between two models (BBM and QSS-URM/RUE). How do you address this? It seems that you are making standard physics with BBM and Standard Model up-side down! Is your model well accepted in mainstream physics? You know your model in depth because you are its creator. So tell us what are the problems in your model?

 

[13] Singh: “The neurobiological mind is shown to represent a subset of the complementary states of the prevailing higher order universal consciousness in the form of the continuum of space-time-mass-energy. The proposed approach integrates spontaneity or consciousness into a simplified form of the widely-accepted general relativity theory to provide a cohesive model of the universe as one wholesome continuum of matter-mind-consciousness. The model represents the essential reality of conscious experiences of the mind as lower level equivalent and complementary states of the zero-point energy or universal consciousness, which represents the spontaneous kinetic energy of the extreme kind.”

 

Vimal: Although you do not want to use any “…ism”, but the above quote seems to be consistent with the extended dual-aspect monism, with (a) conscious experiences and functions (subsets of universal consciousness) as 1pp-mental aspect and (b) neural-networks and their activities (subsets of continuum of space-time-mass-energy or ZPF/ZPE) as the inseparable 3pp-physical aspect with the same information (as elaborated in [6] above).

 

[14] Singh: The root cause of the missing 96% (dark energy/dark matter) from the current standard model Big Bang cosmology is complete ignorance of the positive expansive anti-gravitational energy of the universe. Because of this fundamental deficiency, Einstein proposed a fudge factor Cosmological Constant to fix the issue, and even today it remains as the only viable explanation of dark energy causing the observed accelerated expansion of the universe. What I have tried to show that adding to relativity the missing physics of spontaneous mass/energy conversion observed in wave/particle complementarity [duality] and mass/energy equivalence principle, solves this problem and provides a physical basis for Dark Energy or cosmological constant eliminating the artificial fudge factor as well as paradoxes/inconsistencies of physics and cosmology (GR, QM, standard model etc). Such an integrated approach predicts the observed expansion of the universe without the paradoxes of the Big Bang standard model and QM.  Expansive energy cannot be artificially created from the mis-conceived negative gravitational energy. Gravitational energy could only cause an inward contracting collapse or crunch such as in a black hole but could not lead to the observed expansion of the universe. Positive expansion energy is required to create or store a gravitational potential energy [GPE] (termed negative). Negative GPE has no existence of its own without the positive expansive energy. This fundamental misconception has led to various weird concepts such as inflation, multiple universes, fine tuning, dark energy, dark matter, big bang, and unexplained weirdness of QM including the collapse of the wave function, etc.  

 

Vimal: Where does the “positive expansive energy” come from?

 

Singh: Positive expansions energy comes from transformation of mass to kinetic energy just like wave energy comes from a quantum particle. It also follows from the principle of mass-energy equivalence.

 

Vimal: According to you, Hawking and others are wrong when they argue for the negative gravitational energy and zero total energy of universe: is this correct? Please justify your answer.

---

[i] As per Wikipedia (as of 12 August 2017), “In cosmology, the Steady State theory is an alternative to the Big Bang model of the evolution of the universe. In the steady-state theory, the density of matter in the expanding universe remains unchanged due to a continuous creation of matter, thus adhering to the perfect cosmological principle, a principle that asserts that the observable universe is basically the same at any time as well as at any place. While the steady state model enjoyed some popularity in the mid-20th century, it is now rejected by the vast majority of cosmologists, astrophysicists and astronomers,  as the observational evidence points to a hot Big Bang cosmology with a finite age of the universe, which the Steady State model does not predict.^[1][2] […]

Quasi-steady state cosmology (QSS) was proposed in 1993 by Fred Hoyle, Geoffrey Burbidge, and Jayant V. Narlikar as a new incarnation of the steady state ideas meant to explain additional features unaccounted for in the initial proposal. The theory suggests pockets of creation occurring over time within the universe, sometimes referred to as minibangs, mini-creation events, or little bangs. After the observation of an accelerating universe, further modifications of the model were made.^[8]

Astrophysicist and cosmologist Ned Wright have pointed out flaws in the theory.^[9] These first comments were soon rebutted by the proponents.^[10] Wright and other mainstream cosmologists reviewing QSS have pointed out new flaws and discrepancies with observations left unexplained by proponents.^[11]”

 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/15de1f21c20-4b23-14ad5%40webprd-m69.mail.aol.com.

[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Avtar,

I have combined my reply to the two of your previous mails.

As I and Ram have emphasized a number of times, negative sign of gravitational Potential Energy (GPE) (gravitation is always attractive) comes naturally when you take GPE as zero when objects are at infinite distance from each other. This is allowed and it is a natural choice. You can take it to be zero anywhere if you watch out for relative signs but that is not going to solve the problems of dark matter and dark energy. For expansion, you are right; attractive gravity will not help. You need a repulsive force which is supposed to be provided by inflaton field and cosmological constant or a similar quantum field called quintessence. For repulsive field the potential energy will be positive.

First let us discuss motion of a rocket near earth as NASA, ISRO and other space agencies are doing. If you have a rocket of mass m and earth of mass M and radius R,

the correct expression for GPE is –GMm/R. mgh is an approximation as a simple exercise can show. Diff between PE at height h and the earth’s surface is

-GMm/(R+h) – (- GMm/R) ~ mgh when h is small compared to R. (g=GM/R^2) so for rocket motion in planetary dynamics the correct expression -GMm/r should be used and not mgh.

Then E (total energy) at launch pad is given by (for simplicity late us take non relativistic rocket (rest mass energy does not change)

E= 0.5 mv (1) ^2 – GmM/R = 0.5 mv (2) ^2 – GMm/r at a distance r from the earth’s center by conservation of energy.

If you require v (2) to be zero at infinity, E =0, then v (1) becomes escape velocity ~ about 7 mi/s for leaving earth. If you give enough boost to get v (1)> v (escape) then E >o and the rocket not only will escape the earth’s field but will continue with a non-zero velocity for a long time. On the other hand if v (1) ~ 5mi/sec it will get into earth’s orbit. You can check that in this case E<0 which is required for a bound orbit to earth. (Bound orbits have negative total energy). But if v (1) is much less than 5 mi/sec, E<0 it will reach some height because of initial speed but will fall back to earth after some time. The last case has happened several times when the initial boost from ignition does not give the rocket enough initial velocity. I emphasize that E (total) > 0 is not necessary. For any non-zero v (1) the rocket will go up may be only a few feet and then fall back. When you throw a ball up in the above equation E<0 and the ball falls back after achieving certain height. In actual practice they use multistage rocket but for simplicity and to save my figures from fatigue due to too much typing I have considered a single stage system!  The principle should be clear. Such an analysis is used by NASA and ISRO successfully. You cannot use singularity arguments to doubt this! So – sign is ok and do not use mgh for planetary flights.

Beginning of universe is a complicated case due to a possible singularity, but no one will believe that changing sign of GPE will solve the problem. By the way, there are issues that dark matter and dark energy have not been detected directly, but there are so many indirect evidences such as rotation of stars around galactic centers, bending of starlight by some unknown matter, analysis of cosmic microwave background etc., that there are some features which would have to remain in a final theory. Thus as a said in a joke last time, removing foundation is not necessary to solve the leaky roof problem! I purposely took example of non-relativistic rocket to avoid complications of relativity. But the case with relativity will be similar energy and mass can be mutually converted into each other. But you have to account for where each came from.

Best Regards.

Kashyap

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Continuation of my previous email:

Dear Avtar and Kashyap,

[15]. Expansion velocity

Singh: As per (Singh, 2017), “For values of R larger than approximately 14 billion light-years, the expansion velocity calculated by the Linear Hubble model (LHM) exceeds the velocity of light C and hence, violates the theory of relativity. The velocity predicted by RUE, on the other hand, approaches the speed of light C asymptotically as R increases indefinitely.”  

Vimal: What about the prediction of Lambda-CDM model: does it also predict that the expansion velocity exceeds the velocity of light similar to LHM

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

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[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Ram and Avtar,

Again I will give an answer which is in line with the consensus of majority of physicists. It seems Avatarji does not believe in it. That is perfectly ok. Science does and should encourage disagreements and there should not be any censorship.

Now, expansion of space faster than c is not believed to be violation of  special theory of relativity (SR). Space is not a material object. The speed limit is applied to two material objects , such as two rockets or two galaxies passing each other. If the observers on either one measures the other’s velocity to be greater than c by bouncing light or radar beams off the other than there would be surely violation of SR. But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. So like two ants on an expanding balloon, each one thinks that the other one is flying away. The relative velocities are measured by what is called red shift= z= shift in wavelength/original wave length. For small velocities z is equal to v/c and is essentially like Doppler shift. So  when you observe farther and farther galaxies , z increases. Eventually z will become infinite (I have to look up what is the maximum z they have observed) and faraway galaxies which are apparently (not really) seeming to be moving with v approaching c and eventually exceeding c will be unobservable. Space will be expanding faster than light. So light signals will never reach us. That is the limit of the observable universe. There may be galaxies and whole big universe outside, but that will never be observable!

I understand this is the current consensus. The problem with Avatarji’s suggestion is that it is in conflict with many facts of SR which have been verified for decades and perhaps close to 100 years. If Ram finds that it is not, I would like to understand. But at this point it looks like, throwing away the entire foundation of SR and GR is not necessary and it is not likely to solve the fundamental issues.

By the way, they do not use linear Hubble model as z becomes very large. They have to introduce SR and GR (general relativistic)  corrections any way,  z not equal to v/c. But v(apparent) > c problem is supposed to be solved by the above reasoning.

Best regards.

Kashyap

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Kashyap, Stan, Avtar, and Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

As per Linear Hubble model (LHM) and perhaps the Lambda-CDM (Cold Dark Matter)model, only a part of the whole universe should be observable where the physical information transfer velocity v_p≤c because the expansion velocity v_e>c after 14 billion light-years.

 

As per (Singh, 2017)’s Relativistic Universe Expansion (RUE), the whole universe should be observable because of the expansion velocity v_e and the physical information transfer velocity v_p≤c.

 

As per Vinod Sehgal, at the highest level of Samādhi state, yogi’s soul is:

(i) Capable of getting out of his/her body-brain-mind system,

(ii) Capable of traveling at speed v_s>>c and able to visit all unobservable universes and fetch all the information needed (by NASA and ISRO) instantly.

(iii) In addition, if NASA and ISRO want to affect whatever is going on unobservable universes, the yogi’s soul is capable of doing this job. Please note that soul is immortal, and high and low temperature or anything cannot affect the soul. In addition, it is a non-invasive effort because yogi’s soul will return back to his/her body-brain-mind system after completing such tasks.

Perhaps Vinod ji and similar yoga-groups who firmly claim (i)-(iii), should try convincing NASA and ISRO to invest some money on such yogis who are willing to participate in their research. 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 8:49 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kashyap wrote to Avtar and  Ram:

 "But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. "

When the space between the galaxies expands, it means galaxies are also taken away with the expansion of the space amounting to a fact that galaxies are somehow tethered to space. Had galaxies been not tethered to space, space beneath the galaxies would have expanded in a slip away mode with galaxies remaining at the same position in space. But space in itself has no marker to ascertain and measure its expansion The expansion of the space is ascertained and measured from the relative position of the galaxies by measuring the red shift of the light emanating from galaxies.

So when space between the galaxies expands away at v>c which will also push away galaxies at v>c, why this pushing should not be interpreted as the motion of the galaxies at v>c?

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

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[Vasavada, Kashyap V]

Dear Avtar, Vinod, Ram and others,

Perhaps it will be useful to mention history of how the idea of space expansion came about. As soon as Hubble and some others realized that galaxies were going away from us, it became clear that Einstein’s equations even with or without cosmological constant (cc) were predicting that steady state universe was  impossible and indeed they  were predicting expansion which Einstein missed and called cc as his  biggest blunder in life!! Since it is foolish to believe that we are at the center of the universe, it became clear that from the point of view of every galaxy, other galaxies must be receding from it. The only way to make this compatible is to assume that space between every galaxy was expanding. There is no choice. Otherwise we have to believe in the foolish idea that we are at the center of the universe. This gave rise to the metaphor of ants on an expanding balloon where  from the point of view of each ant the other ants were moving away at a speed proportional to their distance which is Hubble’s law. From elementary physics you can show that only in this case the same law will apply to each galaxy. Any other law will not be consistent with application to each galaxy. A specific galaxy like ours will be special which would be nonsense. Now, how can space expand, that is one of those weird things (from our everyday life perspective) like other things in modern physics such as quantum theory and theory of relativity.

Vinod : you can interpret galaxies flying away from us at v>c  if you want , but as I explained , without measurement, it does not violate SR. The Radar or light beams from that galaxy will never reach us to create any conflict with SR. The whole business  in physics is about measurement (even in thought) . Without measurement, ideas in physics do not mean anything.

[Asingh2384]

Dear Kashyap/Ram/Vinod:

The views and arguments presented by Kashyap represent the current mainstream – “in the box” views that are invalidated by the missing 96% of the universe (dark energy, dark matter), 120 orders of magnitude incorrect predictions of the vacuum energy, and ridiculous unverifiable predictions such as parallel universes (that demeans fundamental science founded on One Universe and One set of laws), un-explainable quantum weirdness and inconsistencies with GR, singularities that make the whole story extremely unscientific and unverifiable.

The Universal Relativity model (URM) described in my papers is to integrate the missing physics from the current mainstream understanding to complete the holistic universal reality resolving the above outstanding paradoxes and inconsistencies among QM and relativity theories. URM is vindicated by the accurate predictions of the observed data of accelerated expansion of the universe solving the dark energy puzzle and it also explains the inner workings of QM demystifying its weirdness. Thus URM corrects and differs from many current mainstream individual interpretations of space expansion, dilation, mass dilation, negative or positive GPE, total energy, etc etc. But the total wholesome URM theory is vindicated by the empirical observations of the universe that the standard model lacks.

URM shows that we do not have to wait for invention of the mysterious God particle to resolve the current conundrums and paradoxes paralyzing physics and cosmology. It is not dark out there; we just need to open our eyes without being blinded by the “in-the-box” text book or mainstream paradoxical ideologies. I believe in science but in a holistic and complete science. An incomplete science could be as misleading as the dogmatic religion. We should not have a blind faith in printed text book knowledge and sheep mentality to blindly follow the mainstream crowd. Of course, this would require courage and open minded approach to science and life.

It would be not only very inefficient but also time consuming to discuss all detailed differences in a forum like this. In a nutshell, mass and gravity play only a minor or insignificant (4%) role in governing the entire universe behavior. Mass and gravity are dominant in the very near-field earthly or planetary physics. Spontaneous anti-gravity or expansive phenomena govern the dominant (96%) behavior of galaxies and the entire far-field universe that the current mainstream standard model and understanding miss entirely.

Let us focus on the 96% of the dominant missing physics to solve the challenges to the current mainstream mis-understanding rather than being derailed by the hair-splitting details of the insignificant matter and GPE being negative or positive on a universe scale. The main challenge to science is to resolve the dark energy and vacuum energy puzzle and not the gravity or bending of space-time to come up with an integrated universal theory of everything. In my view and experience, a complete theory of matter, gravity, and antigravity would naturally be synchronous with the theory of consciousness since the ultimate universal reality is One and only ONE in ONE universe with ONE set of laws that make science doable and meaningful.

My approach has been to think outside the box of the current inconsistent, paradoxical, and unverifiable understanding of the universal reality howsoever mainstream and majority accepted approach. The true vindication of the universality of an integrated theory comes from its agreement with the universe observations. Agreement against thousands of worldly experiments in classical fixed space-time may not be sufficient vindication at the universal scale as is already proven by the missing explanation for dark energy and dark matter by the current mainstream theories. Millions of experiments vindicating the tail of the elephant may not be sufficient to describe the true elephant in its entirety; this is a formidable challenge for the current mainstream scientific method.

Reality and truth are universal phenomena and not necessarily democratic or majority accepted ideologies.

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

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[Asingh2384]

Dear Ram:

Vimal: What are your comments on God, soul, astral and causal bodies related to Sāṅkhya and Vedānta? Can you derive 18 elementary particles from 5 tanmātras?

Avtar:

God = Universal Consciousness

Soul  = Mind

Bodies = Matter

Vimal: What is your definition of “consciousness’ and what is the difference between “universal consciousness” and “biological consciousness”?

Avtar:

Universal Consciousness = Cosmic laws and Order, Non-duality, Spontaneity, Eternity

Biological Consciousness = Experienced by mind/brain – senses, emotions, thoughts, feelings, dreams etc.

Vimal: Do you mean that all natural laws (physical, biological and other laws) self-existent or inherent in Nature, which have nothing to do with OOO God?

Avtar:

God is a personalized or human conceptualized name (interpretation) given to the cosmic law and order. There is no real big daddy sitting in the skies and commanding the universe.

Vimal: Is this “fundamental universal consciousness or awareness” in the form of laws or is this OOO God (fully manifested consciousness as Vinod Sehgal claims) or is it in potential form (Universal potential Consciousness as the eDAM proposes)? …….Is your framework is based on the (a) top-down approach (from OOO God to us, and from 5 tanmātras to 18 elementary particles) as in Vedānta and Sāṅkhya  OR (b) bottom-up approach using BB or (quasi-)steady state^[i] or other scientific model using theory of co-evolution and Buddhist dependent co-origination as in the eDAM.

Avtar: URM integrates matter, mind, consciousness in both a top-down and bottoms-up framework as a continuum.

Vimal: If URM/RUE is one of the quasi-steady state (QSS) models, then how is URM/RUE related to Mini-Bangs (pockets of creation occurring over time within the universe) suggested by QSS model of (Hoyle, Burbidge & Narlikar, 1993).

Avtar: Yes, URM is QSS model. There is no big bang or  mini-bangs.

Vimal: If there is no beginning (onset) of our universe, then what is the meaning of “initial state”? In your QSS URM model, it seems that there is no evolution, i.e., a life began about 4 billion years ago is incorrect: is this true?

Avtar:

Time, beginning, initial state, and evolution are temporal relative realities within the lower level consciousness state of mind/matter. There is no absolute time in the universe.  

Vimal: It is unclear what you mean by “unconsciousness (V=0, R=0) to full consciousness (V=C, R~ ∞)”. Literally, how at rest (velocity V =0) at the location of a human being (R=0) s/he is unconscious and at velocity V = C (speed of light) at a very large distance (R~ ∞) s/he is fully conscious? It makes no sense to me.

Avtar:

V=0, R=0 represent zero motion (deadness, no life) and zero domain (radius) of awareness, hence unconsciousness or death just like at the center of a black hole crunched by attractive pull of gravity.

V=C, R~infinity represent spontaneously expanding (Brahma), no gravity or attachment, fully enlightened (zero mass or ego), fully dilated time (eternal), fully dilated space (omnipresent).

Vimal:… there seems to be a contradiction between two models (BBM and QSS-URM/RUE). How do you address this?

Avtar:

I have addressed the above in my earlier e-mail pointing differing approach from the mainstream “boxed” approach. Agreement with universe observations without any unresolved paradoxes (dark energy, dark matter) vindicates the approach.

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Avtar,

Thanks.

Please provide URM/RUE model fits on all the data shown in
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/stdystat.htm

Then we will able to compare it with other models' predictions.

Regards,

Ram

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 15, 2017, at 12:29 PM, Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com> wrote:

Nature has no censorship on the observable or comprehensible universe. The limited and incomplete human awareness is the only impediment to the holistic understanding of the universe and consciousness.

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

-----Original Message-----
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>

To: Kashyap V. Vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Matters Of Mind <matters...@googlegroups.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 15, 2017 8:17 am
Subject: Re: [MoM] Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Kashyap, Stan, Avtar, and Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

As per Linear Hubble model (LHM) and perhaps the Lambda-CDM (Cold Dark Matter)model, only a part of the whole universe should be observable where the physical information transfer velocity v_p≤c because the expansion velocity v_e>c after 14 billion light-years.

 

As per (Singh, 2017)’s Relativistic Universe Expansion (RUE), the whole universe should be observable because of the expansion velocity v_e and the physical information transfer velocity v_p≤c.

 

As per Vinod Sehgal, at the highest level of Samādhi state, yogi’s soul is:

(i) Capable of getting out of his/her body-brain-mind system,

(ii) Capable of traveling at speed v_s>>c and able to visit all unobservable universes and fetch all the information needed (by NASA and ISRO) instantly.

(iii) In addition, if NASA and ISRO want to affect whatever is going on unobservable universes, the yogi’s soul is capable of doing this job. Please note that soul is immortal, and high and low temperature or anything cannot affect the soul. In addition, it is a non-invasive effort because yogi’s soul will return back to his/her body-brain-mind system after completing such tasks.

Perhaps Vinod ji and similar yoga-groups who firmly claim (i)-(iii), should try convincing NASA and ISRO to invest some money on such yogis who are willing to participate in their research. 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 8:49 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kashyap wrote to Avtar and  Ram:

 "But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. "

When the space between the galaxies expands, it means galaxies are also taken away with the expansion of the space amounting to a fact that galaxies are somehow tethered to space. Had galaxies been not tethered to space, space beneath the galaxies would have expanded in a slip away mode with galaxies remaining at the same position in space. But space in itself has no marker to ascertain and measure its expansion The expansion of the space is ascertained and measured from the relative position of the galaxies by measuring the red shift of the light emanating from galaxies.

So when space between the galaxies expands away at v>c which will also push away galaxies at v>c, why this pushing should not be interpreted as the motion of the galaxies at v>c?

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:

Dear Ram and Avtar,

Again I will give an answer which is in line with the consensus of majority of physicists. It seems Avatarji does not believe in it. That is perfectly ok. Science does and should encourage disagreements and there should not be any censorship.

Now, expansion of space faster than c is not believed to be violation of  special theory of relativity (SR). Space is not a material object. The speed limit is applied to two material objects , such as two rockets or two galaxies passing each other. If the observers on either one measures the other’s velocity to be greater than c by bouncing light or radar beams off the other than there would be surely violation of SR. But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. So like two ants on an expanding balloon, each one thinks that the other one is flying away. The relative velocities are measured by what is called red shift= z= shift in wavelength/original wave length. For small velocities z is equal to v/c and is essentially like Doppler shift. So  when you observe farther and farther galaxies , z increases. Eventually z will become infinite (I have to look up what is the maximum z they have observed) and faraway galaxies which are apparently (not really) seeming to be moving with v approaching c and eventually exceeding c will be unobservable. Space will be expanding faster than light. So light signals will never reach us. That is the limit of the observable universe. There may be galaxies and whole big universe outside, but that will never be observable!

I understand this is the current consensus. The problem with Avatarji’s suggestion is that it is in conflict with many facts of SR which have been verified for decades and perhaps close to 100 years. If Ram finds that it is not, I would like to understand. But at this point it looks like, throwing away the entire foundation of SR and GR is not necessary and it is not likely to solve the fundamental issues.

By the way, they do not use linear Hubble model as z becomes very large. They have to introduce SR and GR (general relativistic)  corrections any way,  z not equal to v/c. But v(apparent) > c problem is supposed to be solved by the above reasoning.

Best regards.

Kashyap

 

From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal [mailto:rlpv...@yahoo.co.in]

Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 10:38 PM
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>

Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com>

Subject: Re: [MoM] Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Continuation of my previous email:

 

Dear Avtar and Kashyap,

 

[15]. Expansion velocity

Singh: As per (Singh, 2017), “For values of R larger than approximately 14 billion light-years, the expansion velocity calculated by the Linear Hubble model (LHM) exceeds the velocity of light C and hence, violates the theory of relativity. The velocity predicted by RUE, on the other hand, approaches the speed of light C asymptotically as R increases indefinitely.”  

 

Vimal: What about the prediction of Lambda-CDM model: does it also predict that the expansion velocity exceeds the velocity of light similar to LHM

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Monday, 14 August 2017 4:57 PM, 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com> wrote:

 

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/ 19420889.2015.1085138
 
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[Asingh2384]

Nature has no censorship on the observable or comprehensible universe. The limited and incomplete human awareness is the only impediment to the holistic understanding of the universe and consciousness.

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

-----Original Message-----
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
To: Kashyap V. Vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Matters Of Mind <matters...@googlegroups.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 15, 2017 8:17 am

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Avtar,

Thanks for your kind reply. My further queries are in blue texts.

[2] Singh: A biological or sensual experience comes from the brain; no brain no biological senses and hence no biological conscious experience in spite of the eternal universal consciousness [God] prevailing in the universe.

 

Vimal: As far as we know, God and soul do not have their own brains (as we do), then they cannot have conscious experiences (as trichromats experience redness when they look at a ripe tomato). Do you agree?

 

[11] Singh: V=0, R=0 represent zero motion (deadness, no life) and zero domain (radius) of awareness, hence unconsciousness or death just like at the center of a black hole crunched by the attractive pull of gravity.

 

V=C, R~infinity represent spontaneously expanding (Brahma), no gravity or attachment, fully enlightened (zero mass or ego), fully dilated time (eternal), fully dilated space (omnipresent).

 

Vimal: These are metaphorical representations. In my view, you seem to have stretched physical cosmology too much to relate it to human unconsciousness to consciousness. I do not think that it will work. I will leave it Vinod (Sehgal) to make further ontological and logical comments.

[16] URM/RUE model to fit more data

Vimal: Please provide URM/RUE model fits on all the data shown in (Wright, 2015). Then we will able to compare it with other models' predictions.

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/15de72a96f0-f67-193ed%40webprd-m60.mail.aol.com.

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thank, but I find some inconsistency/contradiction between your today’s two emails (A and B) below. Please clarify A vs. B:

 

A. Vimal: As per Vinod Sehgal, at the highest level of Samādhi state, yogi’s soul is: (i) Capable of getting out of his/her body-brain-mind system,

 

Sehgal: No, the soul never goes from here to there. The soul is the manifestation of the universal cosmic consciousness in the causal body (Chitta to be more specific one) like the universal space can manifest in different containers. The way space within a container can't move from here to there, similarly, the conscious soul also does not move from here to there. The thing which actually moves out of body from here to there is the Astral body which unlike the conscious soul is non- conscious physical entity and this propagates within the Astral realm of nature. 

 

B. Sehgal: The condition of the presence of the brain and biological senses for having any experience is applicable to the localized consciousness (soul) as bounded by the physical body/mind and that too in the wakeful conscious state. […] Leave alone the universal cosmic consciousness, even the localized consciousness [soul] of a yogi in the state of Samādhi, when it awakens  at the Astral bodily level, after withdrawing completely from the Physical body/brain level, can have the experience without the aid of the brain ( but with the aid of the astral mind).”

 

Vimal: In our previous discussions, you differentiated two types of OBEs:

 

(1) “Pseudo-OBEs”, where the self or soul (localized consciousness) remains within the realm of physical bodies (such as within a mind-brain systems) during meditation with the reduction of thought-fluctuations (TFs) below a critical threshold related to Pseudo-OBEs (call it Pseudo-OBEs-threshold), which has NCC such as the disturbance in TPJ areas, which conditions/causes OBEs.

 

(2a) “Real-OBEs”, where the soul (localized consciousness) gets out of the realm of physical bodies (such as within a mind-brain systems); this happens at Savikalpa Samādhi (SS) state; this may or may not have NCC. Here, TFs are reduced below the critical threshold of SS-level Real-OBEs (call it Real-OBEs-SS-threshold). The soul is in astral/causal levels and soul can travel anywhere in universe (including unobservable universes), ‘see’ whatever is going on there as in remote viewing clairvoyance psi and report later on, and the soul can also affect whatever is going on in remote distances (including unobservable universes).

 

(2b) “Real-OBEs”, where the soul (localized consciousness) gets out of the realm of even astral and causal bodies; this happens at Nirvikalpa Samādhi (NS) state; this NS-state cannot have NCC. Here, TFs are reduced to its minimum or zero (call it Real-OBEs-NS-threshold). It is unclear to me if soul can see, report, and affect as in (2a). 

 

Do you still maintain (1), (2a), and (2b)? Please clarify my query in (2b): if soul can see, report, and affect as in (2a).

 

It is fine if you have changed your view, but please tell us your current view on this topic and justify why you changed your old view.

 

Cheers! 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Wednesday, 16 August 2017 3:06 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear  Ram, Avtar, and  Kashyap

Thanks. My comments in red font text after the blue font comments of  Ram.

[2] Singh: A biological or sensual experience comes from the brain; no brain no biological senses and hence no biological conscious experience in spite of the eternal universal consciousness [God] prevailing in the universe.

 

Vimal: As far as we know, God and soul do not have their own brains (as we do), then they cannot have conscious experiences (as trichromats experience redness when they look at a ripe tomato). Do you agree?

The condition of the presence of the brain and biological senses for having any experience is 

applicable to the localized consciousness ( soul)  as bounded by the physical body/mind and that

too in the wakeful conscious state. There is no parallel of the universal cosmic consciousness

with that of the localized consciousness with that of humans and other organisms. Leave alone the

universal cosmic consciousness, even the localized consciousness of a Yogi in the state of Samaadhi,

when it awakens  at the Astral bodily level, after withdrawing completely from the Physical body/brain

level, can have the experience without the aid of the brain ( but with the aid of the astral mind).

If Avtar says that God cosmic consciousness can't have the experience  without the brain and God

 is really not having any brain, does he want a deaf, dumb and senseless God?

The dependence of the localized consciousness on various biological instruments viz brain and 

senses for having any experience reveals the limitations/weaknesses of the localized consciousnes0. 

The cosmic consciousness ( God) being much much higher than the localized consciousness (soul)

in terms of power and potential no longer  stay dependent on the biological instruments for having

any experience.

 

[11] Singh: V=0, R=0 represent zero motion (deadness, no life) and zero domain (radius) of awareness, hence unconsciousness or death just like at the center of a black hole crunched by the attractive pull of gravity.

 

V=C, R~infinity represent spontaneously expanding (Brahma), no gravity or attachment, fully enlightened (zero mass or ego), fully dilated time (eternal), fully dilated space (omnipresent).

 

Vimal: These are metaphorical representations. In my view, you seem to have stretched physical cosmology too much to relate it to human unconsciousness to consciousness. I do not think that it will work. I will leave it Vinod (Sehgal) to make further ontological and logical comments.

The concepts of V and R are applicable to space and physical matter and 

not to the cosmic consciousness.  Wherever, there will be V and R, 

there shall be change and God ( cosmic consciousness) is changeless

( Nirvikkari). God ( cosmic consciousness) is already infinite holistic indivisible

ONE and changeless. The concepts of V and R can't be appilcable to 

such infinite holistic ONE.

Reagrds.

Vinod Sehgal

[16] URM/RUE model to fit more data

Vimal: Please provide URM/RUE model fits on all the data shown in (Wright, 2015). Then we will able to compare it with other models' predictions.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 11:39 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear  Ram, Singh, Kashyap and Stan,

My comments are given in blue text font after the comments of  Ram.

As per Linear Hubble model (LHM) and perhaps the Lambda-CDM (Cold Dark Matter)model, only a part of the whole universe should be observable where the physical information transfer velocity v_p≤c because the expansion velocity v_e>c after 14 billion light-years.

This can be well understood that if expansion velocity of galaxies is  v>c, information from that part of the universe will never reach us since information can't travel at >c, therefore, we will never be able to observe that part of the universe.

 

As per (Singh, 2017)’s Relativistic Universe Expansion (RUE), the whole universe should be observable because of the expansion velocity v_e and the physical information transfer velocity v_p≤c.

I don't understand as to how expansion velocity  v for  galaxies at distances >14 billion light years is  v<c

 

As per Vinod Sehgal, at the highest level of Samādhi state, yogi’s soul is:

(i) Capable of getting out of his/her body-brain-mind system,

No, the soul never goes from here to there. The soul is the manifestation of the universal cosmic consciousness in the causal body ( Chitta to be more specific one) like the universal space can manifest in different containers. The way space within a container can't move from here to there, similarly, the conscious soul also does not move from here to there. The thing which actually moves out of body from here to there is the Astral body which unlike the conscious soul is non- conscious  physical entity and this propagates within the Astral realm of nature 

(ii) Capable of traveling at speed v_s>>c and able to visit all unobservable universes and fetch all the information needed (by NASA and ISRO) instantly.

The Astral body travels within the Astral realm and NOT the physical realm. In the Astral realm, the e.m energy of the physical world is not present, therefore, limitations of the speed of c  as applicable to e.m energy are not applicable. The astral body travels and reaches the desired destination merely by the will.

(iii) In addition, if NASA and ISRO want to affect whatever is going on unobservable universes, the yogi’s soul is capable of doing this job. Please note that soul is immortal, and high and low temperature or anything cannot affect the soul. In addition, it is a non-invasive effort because yogi’s soul will return back to his/her body-brain-mind system after completing such tasks.

As indicated in the aforesaid, it is the physical Astral body which travels out of the physical body at the mere will. Like the soul, the Astral body is also not affected by the temperature, mechanical effects

In the above context, the unobservable universe is of two types viz

i) The physical universe but spatiotemporally beyond the reach of the physical information of e.m energy. The type of the universe situated at more than 14 billion light years belong to this category.

ii) The Astral and causal parts which spatiotemporally are very much here but none of the signal of e.m energy can enter in/out of these realms to our physical world. In view of this, by the objective methodology, we can't know of these worlds.

For example, our thoughts comprise of some Astral ontology in the Astral realm. But we as scientists are unaware of the ontology of thoughts since scientists objective methodology is dependent on e/m signals and such signals don't enter in/out of the Astral realm.

However, when thoughts are produced in the Astral mind, their physical effects are projected on the brain in form of e.m waves ( Alpha to Delta e.m waves). But these e.m waves from Alpha to delta range per se are not thoughts but the physical counterparts of thoughts in the brain.

Perhaps Vinod ji and similar yoga-groups who firmly claim (i)-(iii), should try convincing NASA and ISRO to invest some money on such yogis who are willing to participate in their research. 

First such scientists of NASA and ISRO need to have a  clear understanding and get the conviction of the existence of the trans-physical Astral and causal worlds, which though are the physical realms of nature, but beyond and out of the known physicality of the baryonic matter and 4 fundamental forces. Investing money for such yogis is not an issue at all since for a person who can take his Astral body anywhere out of their physical body, money and other mundane things are not a consideration at all.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 3:04 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Avtar,

Thanks for your kind reply. My further queries are in blue texts.

[2] Singh: A biological or sensual experience comes from the brain; no brain no biological senses and hence no biological conscious experience in spite of the eternal universal consciousness [God] prevailing in the universe.

 

Vimal: As far as we know, God and soul do not have their own brains (as we do), then they cannot have conscious experiences (as trichromats experience redness when they look at a ripe tomato). Do you agree?

 

[11] Singh: V=0, R=0 represent zero motion (deadness, no life) and zero domain (radius) of awareness, hence unconsciousness or death just like at the center of a black hole crunched by the attractive pull of gravity.

 

V=C, R~infinity represent spontaneously expanding (Brahma), no gravity or attachment, fully enlightened (zero mass or ego), fully dilated time (eternal), fully dilated space (omnipresent).

 

Vimal: These are metaphorical representations. In my view, you seem to have stretched physical cosmology too much to relate it to human unconsciousness to consciousness. I do not think that it will work. I will leave it Vinod (Sehgal) to make further ontological and logical comments.

[16] URM/RUE model to fit more data

Vimal: Please provide URM/RUE model fits on all the data shown in (Wright, 2015). Then we will able to compare it with other models' predictions.

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://s ites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/ Home

https://www.researchgate.net/p rofile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal  

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; 

...

[Message clipped]  

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

You have already provided your answer that you do not know what color God will experience because for that you need to be at the Nirvikalpa Samādhi (NS)-state to merge with God to experience the color, which is not possible for you in this life due to your own personal reasons.

However, Avtar mentioned, “God is a personalized or human conceptualized name (interpretation) given to the cosmic law and order. There is no real big daddy sitting in the skies and commanding the universe. […] Cosmic consciousness is all inclusive of lower level consciousness of body/brain/mind even if it does not have a material body/brain.” This makes more sense to me than your OOO-God who is like a “real big daddy sitting in the skies and commanding the universe”. 

It is unclear to me what he meant. That is why I asked him; I hope that he answers. 

My understanding of reading his sentences is that Cosmic Consciousness (God) is an invention of human minds (as the Nobel Laureate Chandrasekhar mentioned). One could argue that God is an aggregate of all lower level consciousness of body/brain/mind. In other words, God experiences thru us who have brains to have biology based subjective experiences, i.e., He can experience redness thru trichromats when they look at a ripe-tomato, grayness thru achromats, dog’s experiences thru dogs, ant’s experiences thru ants, mosquito’s experiences thru mosquitoes, and so on. This is consistent will the statement “All (entities) in One (Brahman) and One in All”. There is no entity separate from our universe where all living and non-living entities reside; dualistic Sāṅkhya proposes two independent non-interacting entities Puruṣa and Prakṛti; interactive substance dualism proposes two independent but interacting entities such as mind and matter; both have 11 serious problems; therefore, they need to be rejected and monistic metaphysics should be given preference. 

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Thursday, 17 August 2017 5:20 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected  Dr. Ram,

For knowing or experiencing a ripe tomato, God need not look at or stare at tomato the way we localized  consciousness possessing humans look at tomato thru our mind and senses. The question is not as simple as it appears. There are more than one perspectives on this issue viz

I) Does  the phenomenal reality of a ripe tomato  really has any existence from the level of God's cosmic consciousness?  I don't think it so with certainty  since phenomenal reality is created from mind and senses. But still  God will be aware of all type of phenomenal realities which may arise  due to mind and senses in all the conceivable  and non- conceivable physical system. Reasons for this being due to God being out of space/time and physical systems, all the information of all the future physical systems is embedded in the cosmic consciousness  of God.

ii) we as human beings with our present level of consciousness can know of the phenomenal or/and noumenal reality at our current level of consciousness. We humans with our current level of consciousness  can't experience of be reality at levels higher or lower than our levels. For example, we can't know of what colour a ripe tomato  will appear to dogs or mosquitos or ants ( consciousness  levels at lower than ours). Similarly, we also can't know of what colour  a ripe tomato  will appear to God? For knowing this, we will be required to take our consciousness  to the levels if a dog ir God. And none of these is possible for the normal humans.

Regards


Vinod Sehgal

On Thursday, August 17, 2017, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
> Dear Avtar,
>  

> Thanks.
>  
> Sehgal: If Avtar says that God cosmic consciousness can't have the experience without the brain and God is really not having any brain, does he want a deaf, dumb and senseless God?
>  
> Singh: Cosmic consciousness is all inclusive of lower level consciousness of body/brain/mind even if it does not have a material body/brain. 
>  
> Vimal: Then what is the answer my old simple query: What color will God experience if He looks at a ripe-tomato?

>  
> Kind regards,
> Rām
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
> Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
> Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
> 25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
> Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
> rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 
> Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
>

> On Wednesday, 16 August 2017 9:12 PM, Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Vinod:
> Please note your statement; I never said "....(If Avtar says) that God cosmic consciousness can't have the experience  without the brain and God

>  is really not having any brain, does he want a deaf, dumb and senseless God?"

> Cosmic consciousness is all inclusive of lower level consciousness of body/brain/mind even if it does not have a material body/brain. 
> Regards
> Avtar

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>

> To: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; sisir roy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Stanley A. KLEIN <skl...@berkeley.edu>
> Sent: Wed, Aug 16, 2017 12:06 am
> Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
>

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

I agree with Avtar that “God is a fictitious human construct”.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Thursday, 17 August 2017 11:13 AM, Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Vinod:

Vinod: ".....which effectively means God is deaf, dumb and sense. So where is the scope for any misunderstanding  on my part?"

Respectfully, your possible misunderstanding stems from the unfounded assumption that God exists and is a real person with brain, body, ears, and eyes. Since God is a fictitious human construct, all statements regarding God person's existence and expected bodily behavior (deaf, dumb, senseless etc) are fictitious, unverifiable, and ridiculous.

Best Regards

Avtar

-----Original Message-----
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>

To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Cc: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; sisir roy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; georgeweis <georg...@aol.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 17, 2017 7:52 am
Subject: Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Dr Singh,

The whole issue arose when in of your past emails, you indicated that brain and biological  systems are  must for having any experience even by the cosmic  universal  consciousness. Obviously  the universal consciousness  is not having brain and other biological  systems? Now if you stick  to your view in the past email that brain and biological systems are must fir having any experience, this leads  one to infer  that God can't have experiences ( due to the absence of any brain and biological systems) which effectively means God is deaf, dumb and sense. So where is the scope for any misunderstanding  on my part?

Now when you say that universal  consciousness  is all inclusive  at the lower levels and higher ends, this could be there  but with a large functional differences at the lower and higher  ends. It is a common  observation that St the lower levels of we humans, consciousness  remain dependent on the brain and biological systems for having experiences. Now if you will extend this condition of the presence  of brain and biological system  to even universal higher level consciousness also for having experience, you can't save God from becoming deaf, dumb and senseless.

The fact is that though consciousness  might be same at both the higher and lower levels from the ontological  considerations but from the functional perspective, they are quite difference. While the consciousness  at the lower human levels is dependent on brain and the biological  systems for having any experience but at the universal cosmic consciousness level, this dependence vanishes presumably due to its unbounnding by the body and brain. Bounding by the matter, brain and body limits the power  and potential of the consciousness

Regards

Vinod Sehgal

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

If soul along with astral and causal bodies leaves the physical bodies, then it is unclear why only astral bodies are allowed to travel; logically all of these together should have the ability to travel all over observable and unobservable parts of our physical universe.

 

However, let us suppose that only astral bodies (without soul and causal bodies) have the ability to travel then do you still claim in (2a) and (2b)? In other words, can astral bodies travel instantly to all observable and unobservable parts of our universe and ‘see’ what is going on there, report us back, and also have the ability to modify the activities in such remote distances. Obviously, we cannot verify the activities on unobservable parts of our universe, but we can easily verify the activities on earth. Do you still claim that yogis can perform these tasks successfully? If NASA and ISRO can verify what yogis report on various parts of the earth, then scientists might have some confidence in your claims. Otherwise, it will all be considered nonsense and fake. I think, most of us will agree with me.

 

Cheers!

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Thursday, 17 August 2017 2:03 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected Dr. Ram,

My comments in the violet font text after your comments

Thank, but I find some inconsistency/contradiction between your today’s two emails (A and B) below. Please clarify A vs. B:

 

A. Vimal: As per Vinod Sehgal, at the highest level of Samādhi state, yogi’s soul is: (i) Capable of getting out of his/her body-brain-mind system,

 

Sehgal: No, the soul never goes from here to there. The soul is the manifestation of the universal cosmic consciousness in the causal body (Chitta to be more specific one) like the universal space can manifest in different containers. The way space within a container can't move from here to there, similarly, the conscious soul also does not move from here to there. The thing which actually moves out of body from here to there is the Astral body which unlike the conscious soul is non- conscious physical entity and this propagates within the Astral realm of nature. 

 

B. Sehgal: The condition of the presence of the brain and biological senses for having any experience is applicable to the localized consciousness (soul) as bounded by the physical body/mind and that too in the wakeful conscious state. […] Leave alone the universal cosmic consciousness, even the localized consciousness [soul] of a yogi in the state of Samādhi, when it awakens  at the Astral bodily level, after withdrawing completely from the Physical body/brain level, can have the experience without the aid of the brain ( but with the aid of the astral mind).”

 

Vimal: In our previous discussions, you differentiated two types of OBEs:

 

(1) “Pseudo-OBEs”, where the self or soul (localized consciousness) remains within the realm of physical bodies (such as within a mind-brain systems) during meditation with the reduction of thought-fluctuations (TFs) below a critical threshold related to Pseudo-OBEs (call it Pseudo-OBEs-threshold), which has NCC such as the disturbance in TPJ areas, which conditions/causes OBEs.

 

(2a) “Real-OBEs”, where the soul (localized consciousness) gets out of the realm of physical bodies (such as within a mind-brain systems); this happens at Savikalpa Samādhi (SS) state; this may or may not have NCC. Here, TFs are reduced below the critical threshold of SS-level Real-OBEs (call it Real-OBEs-SS-threshold). The soul is in astral/causal levels and soul can travel anywhere in universe (including unobservable universes), No soul does not travel but it is the Astral body which travels

Strictly speaking, it is not the soul which travels to remote places but it is the Astral body which travels to the remote places. The astral body remains linked to the soul. The withdrawal of the soul/consciousness from the physical body/brain should not be construed as the travel/propagation of the soul due to no spatial distance between the physical body and the astral body

When soul shall withdraw from the physical body/brain, astral body can travel within the astral world with soul staying at the same position the way space within a closed container stays as such there.

 ‘see’ whatever is going on there as in remote viewing clairvoyance psi and report later on, and the soul can also affect whatever is going on in remote distances (including unobservable universes).

When the soul withdraws from the physical body/brain, it stays in the Astral bodily level. There is no spatial distance between the physical body and the astral body. While soul being at the astral bodily level, it is not the soul which propagates to far distances. It is the astral body which propagates to far distances and it remains linked with the localized conscious ( soul). As I have indicated previously also that soul is the manifestation of the universal cosmic consciousness in the Causal body on the same pattern the universal space manifests in different containers. The way space within a closed container can't propagate to any place similarly soul also can't propagate to any place.

 

(2b) “Real-OBEs”, where the soul (localized consciousness) gets out of the realm of even astral and causal bodies; this happens at Nirvikalpa Samādhi (NS) state; this NS-state cannot have NCC. Here, TFs are reduced to its minimum or zero (call it Real-OBEs-NS-threshold). It is unclear to me if soul can see, report, and affect as in (2a). 

When the soul withdraws even from both the Astral and causal body, its "soul hood" disappears and it is replaced by the cosmic consciousness. So now it is the cosmic consciousness which will see and experience. An analogy. A wave of water when gets identified with the vast waters of the oceans, it loses its identity or wave is replaced by the ocean. Cosmic consciousness always remains aware of any experience regardless of the presence/absence of the physical body/brain/senses and astral body/mind. In fact, cosmic consciousness never remains identified with the Astral and Causal worlds/bodies at any time

The identity of the soul remains present till the localized consciousness remains identified with the astral and causal bodies. Once withdrawing from the astral and causal bodies ( state of NS), identification with these bodies being over which leads to the loss of the identity of the soul. In such case, the whole issue of the experience by soul in NS also becomes redundant

 

Do you still maintain (1), (2a), and (2b)? Please clarify my query in (2b): if soul can see, report, and affect as in (2a).

I maintain (1) in which consciousness stays at the brain/body level but due to changes in the TPJ physilogy in the brain, a "feeling" of OBEs is produced. In reality, self or consciosuness stays within body/brain but physical mechanism producing the feeling of self and physical mechanism producing integration of senses with the senses gets disturbed or dismantled ( probably due to TPJ physiological changes), therefore, producing an apparent feeling of OBEs.

  I have elaborated more on 2a). Strictly speaking, there is no distinctive position/state of the soul. That part of the infinite cosmic consciousness which gets reflected in the causal body ( chitta to be more specific one) gets the name of the soul.

Regarding 2b), I have elaborated and clarified my view a bit more.

 

It is fine if you have changed your view, but please tell us your current view on this topic and justify why you changed your old view.

There is no difference in any of my old and new views. It is all your misunderstanding arising from equating the withdrawal of the soul/consciousness from the physical/ body/brain with that of travel of the soul. As elaborated in the foregoing, withdrawal of the soul from the physical body/brain and travel by the Astral body ( NOT by the soul) within the Astral world are altogether different phenomena.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 7:14 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Avtar,

 

Thanks.

 

Sehgal: If Avtar says that God cosmic consciousness can't have the experience without the brain and God is really not having any brain, does he want a deaf, dumb and senseless God?

 

Singh: Cosmic consciousness is all inclusive of lower level consciousness of body/brain/mind even if it does not have a material body/brain. 

 

Vimal: Then what is the answer my old simple query: What color will God experience if He looks at a ripe-tomato?

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://s ites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/ Home

https://www.researchgate.net/p rofile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal  

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 3:10 PM, "'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegrou ps.com> wrote:

Dear Ram:

Vimal: What are your comments on God, soul, astral and causal bodies related to Sāṅkhya and Vedānta? Can you derive 18 elementary particles from 5 tanmātras?

Avtar:

God = Universal Consciousness

Soul  = Mind

Bodies = Matter

Vimal: What is your definition of “consciousness’ and what is the difference between “universal consciousness” and “biological consciousness”?

Avtar:

Universal Consciousness = Cosmic laws and Order, Non-duality, Spontaneity, Eternity

Biological Consciousness = Experienced by mind/brain – senses, emotions, thoughts, feelings, dreams etc.

Vimal: Do you mean that all natural laws (physical, biological and other laws) self-existent or inherent in Nature, which have nothing to do with OOO God?

Avtar:

God is a personalized or human conceptualized name (interpretation) given to the cosmic law and order. There is no real big daddy sitting in the skies and commanding the universe.

Vimal: Is this “fundamental universal consciousness or awareness” in the form of laws or is this OOO God (fully manifested consciousness as Vinod Sehgal claims) or is it in potential form (Universal potential Consciousness as the eDAM proposes)? …….Is your framework is based on the (a) top-down approach (from OOO God to us, and from 5 tanmātras to 18 elementary particles) as in Vedānta and Sāṅkhya  OR (b) bottom-up approach using BB or (quasi-)steady state^[i] or other scientific model using theory of co-evolution and Buddhist dependent co-origination as in the eDAM.

Avtar: URM integrates matter, mind, consciousness in both a top-down and bottoms-up framework as a continuum.

Vimal: If URM/RUE is one of the quasi-steady state (QSS) models, then how is URM/RUE related to Mini-Bangs (pockets of creation occurring over time within the universe) suggested by QSS model of (Hoyle, Burbidge & Narlikar, 1993).

Avtar: Yes, URM is QSS model. There is no big bang or  mini-bangs.

Vimal: If there is no beginning (onset) of our universe, then what is the meaning of “initial state”? In your QSS URM model, it seems that there is no evolution, i.e., a life began about 4 billion years ago is incorrect: is this true?

Avtar:

Time, beginning, initial state, and evolution are temporal relative realities within the lower level consciousness state of mind/matter. There is no absolute time in the universe.  

Vimal: It is unclear what you mean by “unconsciousness (V=0, R=0) to full consciousness (V=C, R~ ∞)”. Literally, how at rest (velocity V =0) at the location of a human being (R=0) s/he is unconscious and at velocity V = C (speed of light) at a very large distance (R~ ∞) s/he is fully conscious? It makes no sense to me.

Avtar:

V=0, R=0 represent zero motion (deadness, no life) and zero domain (radius) of awareness, hence unconsciousness or death just like at the center of a black hole crunched by attractive pull of gravity.

V=C, R~infinity represent spontaneously expanding (Brahma), no gravity or attachment, fully enlightened (zero mass or ego), fully dilated time (eternal), fully dilated space (omnipresent).

Vimal:… there seems to be a contradiction between two models (BBM and QSS-URM/RUE). How do you address this?

Avtar:

I have addressed the above in my earlier e-mail pointing differing approach from the mainstream “boxed” approach. Agreement with universe observations without any unresolved paradoxes (dark energy, dark matter) vindicates the approach.

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

-----Original Message-----
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Cc: vvimaldhye <vvima...@gmail.com>; sisir.sisirroy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; matters-of-mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegrou ps.com>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Kashyap V. Vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Sent: Mon, Aug 14, 2017 1:57 pm

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; 

...

[Message clipped]  

[Asingh2384]

Dear Ram:

Please see attached papers including several data predictions of the Universal Relativity Model. Additional predictions are included in my book - "The Hidden Factor."

Regards

Avtar

-----Original Message-----
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Cc: vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>; matters-of-mind <matters...@googlegroups.com>; vinodsehgal1955 <vinodse...@gmail.com>; vvimaldhye <vvima...@gmail.com>; sisir.sisirroy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; online_sadhu_sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 15, 2017 11:26 am
Subject: Re: [MoM] Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Avtar,

Thanks.

Please provide URM/RUE model fits on all the data shown in

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/stdystat.htm

Then we will able to compare it with other models' predictions.

Regards,

Ram

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 15, 2017, at 12:29 PM, Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com> wrote:

Nature has no censorship on the observable or comprehensible universe. The limited and incomplete human awareness is the only impediment to the holistic understanding of the universe and consciousness.

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

-----Original Message-----
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>

To: Kashyap V. Vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Matters Of Mind <matters...@googlegroups.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 15, 2017 8:17 am
Subject: Re: [MoM] Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Kashyap, Stan, Avtar, and Vinod ji,

 

Thanks.

 

As per Linear Hubble model (LHM) and perhaps the Lambda-CDM (Cold Dark Matter)model, only a part of the whole universe should be observable where the physical information transfer velocity v_p≤c because the expansion velocity v_e>c after 14 billion light-years.

 

As per (Singh, 2017)’s Relativistic Universe Expansion (RUE), the whole universe should be observable because of the expansion velocity v_e and the physical information transfer velocity v_p≤c.

 

As per Vinod Sehgal, at the highest level of Samādhi state, yogi’s soul is:

(i) Capable of getting out of his/her body-brain-mind system,

(ii) Capable of traveling at speed v_s>>c and able to visit all unobservable universes and fetch all the information needed (by NASA and ISRO) instantly.

(iii) In addition, if NASA and ISRO want to affect whatever is going on unobservable universes, the yogi’s soul is capable of doing this job. Please note that soul is immortal, and high and low temperature or anything cannot affect the soul. In addition, it is a non-invasive effort because yogi’s soul will return back to his/her body-brain-mind system after completing such tasks.

Perhaps Vinod ji and similar yoga-groups who firmly claim (i)-(iii), should try convincing NASA and ISRO to invest some money on such yogis who are willing to participate in their research. 

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 8:49 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kashyap wrote to Avtar and  Ram:

 "But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. "

When the space between the galaxies expands, it means galaxies are also taken away with the expansion of the space amounting to a fact that galaxies are somehow tethered to space. Had galaxies been not tethered to space, space beneath the galaxies would have expanded in a slip away mode with galaxies remaining at the same position in space. But space in itself has no marker to ascertain and measure its expansion The expansion of the space is ascertained and measured from the relative position of the galaxies by measuring the red shift of the light emanating from galaxies.

So when space between the galaxies expands away at v>c which will also push away galaxies at v>c, why this pushing should not be interpreted as the motion of the galaxies at v>c?

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:

Dear Ram and Avtar,

Again I will give an answer which is in line with the consensus of majority of physicists. It seems Avatarji does not believe in it. That is perfectly ok. Science does and should encourage disagreements and there should not be any censorship.

Now, expansion of space faster than c is not believed to be violation of  special theory of relativity (SR). Space is not a material object. The speed limit is applied to two material objects , such as two rockets or two galaxies passing each other. If the observers on either one measures the other’s velocity to be greater than c by bouncing light or radar beams off the other than there would be surely violation of SR. But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. So like two ants on an expanding balloon, each one thinks that the other one is flying away. The relative velocities are measured by what is called red shift= z= shift in wavelength/original wave length. For small velocities z is equal to v/c and is essentially like Doppler shift. So  when you observe farther and farther galaxies , z increases. Eventually z will become infinite (I have to look up what is the maximum z they have observed) and faraway galaxies which are apparently (not really) seeming to be moving with v approaching c and eventually exceeding c will be unobservable. Space will be expanding faster than light. So light signals will never reach us. That is the limit of the observable universe. There may be galaxies and whole big universe outside, but that will never be observable!

I understand this is the current consensus. The problem with Avatarji’s suggestion is that it is in conflict with many facts of SR which have been verified for decades and perhaps close to 100 years. If Ram finds that it is not, I would like to understand. But at this point it looks like, throwing away the entire foundation of SR and GR is not necessary and it is not likely to solve the fundamental issues.

By the way, they do not use linear Hubble model as z becomes very large. They have to introduce SR and GR (general relativistic)  corrections any way,  z not equal to v/c. But v(apparent) > c problem is supposed to be solved by the above reasoning.

Best regards.

Kashyap

 

From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal [mailto:rlpv...@yahoo.co.in]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 10:38 PM
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com>
Subject: Re: [MoM] Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

 

Continuation of my previous email:

 

Dear Avtar and Kashyap,

 

[15]. Expansion velocity

Singh: As per (Singh, 2017), “For values of R larger than approximately 14 billion light-years, the expansion velocity calculated by the Linear Hubble model (LHM) exceeds the velocity of light C and hence, violates the theory of relativity. The velocity predicted by RUE, on the other hand, approaches the speed of light C asymptotically as R increases indefinitely.”  

 

Vimal: What about the prediction of Lambda-CDM model: does it also predict that the expansion velocity exceeds the velocity of light similar to LHM

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

 

On Monday, 14 August 2017 4:57 PM, 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com> wrote:

 

Dear Avtar,

 

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Monday, 14 August 2017 2:38 PM, "'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com> wrote:

 

Dear Ram:

 

Q: Where does the “positive expansive energy” come from?

 

Positive expansions energy comes from transformation of mass to kinetic energy just like wave energy comes from a quantum particle. It also follows from the principle of mass-energy equivalence.

 

Please read my articles wherein this has been described mathematically.

 

Q: Does this imply a brain is necessary for a conscious experience and if there is no brain, there is no conscious experience?

 

A biological or sensual experience comes from the brain; no brain no biological senses and hence no biological conscious experience in spite of the eternal universal consciousness prevailing in the universe.

 

Q: Do you mean all living and non-living systems are conscious (as in panpsychism)? ……You seem to reject materialism, so what is your metaphysics, idealism/Advaita, ‘interactive substance dualism’/‘dualistic Sāṅkhya’, or dual-aspect monism?

 

I do not reject materialism but simply extend it to integrate it with the universal reality. Please do not try to label or assign an “…ism” to my work. I am doing only fundamental science based on the well-established laws of conservation and relativity. This approach provides a bridge between all “….isms” you mention providing a seemless vision of the wholesome reality of the universe. Any labeling would demean the wholesome integrated approach.

 

However, since universal reality is one and only one, genuine wholesome science and genuine spirituality are also same and not apart from each other. Various ".....isms" fall apart and get lost in the never land.

 

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com>
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; vinodsehgal1955 <vinodse...@gmail.com>; vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com>
Sent: Sun, Aug 13, 2017 10:32 am

Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Avtar,

 

Thanks.

 

Q: Where does the “positive expansive energy” come from? If you have any article please email me. 

 

I am currently in the process of reading your articles.

 

Thanks for the articles and links. I need to understand your framework first so please help me. The following quotes are from (Singh, 2017). So far, I have the following queries:

 

[1]. “What changes occur in the physical states of the brain a moment before and a moment after death that lead to the cessation of the biological consciousness? […] the brain malfunctions or breaks down, such as during a coma or death, the mind stops working ceasing the conscious experiences.”

 

Does this imply a brain is necessary for a conscious experience and if there is no brain, there is no conscious experience?

 

[2]. “The fact that every location in space and every moment of time in the universe is aware of the universal laws points to the existence of awareness of a universal mind or consciousness.”

 

Does this contradicts the above [1] in the sense brain is not necessary if “universal consciousness” also mean experiences and experiencer (such as the “self” in human being)? It seems that we need to define the terms before using them; otherwise, confusion will occur. What is “consciousness’ and what is the difference between “universal consciousness” and “biological consciousness”?

 

[3] “Furthermore, the presence of conscious beings and the prevailing cosmic order are not possible in a universe that is not conscious.”

 

Do you mean all living and non-living systems are conscious (as in panpsychism)?

 

You seem to reject materialism, so what is your metaphysics, idealism/Advaita, ‘interactive substance dualism’/‘dualistic Sāṅkhya’, or dual-aspect monism?

 

Kind regards,

Rām

------------------------------ ----------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

 

On Sunday, 13 August 2017 11:43 AM, Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com> wrote:

 

Dear Kashyap/Vinod/Ram:

 

The root cause of the missing 96% (dark energy/dark matter) from the current standard model Big Bang cosmology is complete ignorance of the positive expansive anti-gravitational energy of the universe. Because of this fundamental deficiency, Einstein proposed a fudge factor Cosmological Constant to fix the issue, and even today it remains as the only viable explanation of dark energy causing the observed accelerated expansion of the universe.

 

What I have tried to show that adding to relativity the missing physics of spontaneous mass/energy conversion observed in wave/particle complimentarity and mass/energy equivalence principle, solves this problem and provides a physical basis for Dark Energy or cosmological constant eliminating the artificial fudge factor as well as paradoxes/inconsistencies of physics and cosmology (GR, QM, standard model etc). Such an integrated approach predicts the observed expansion of the universe without the paradoxes of the Big Bang standard model and QM.  

 

Expansive energy cannot be artificially created from the mis-conceived negative gravitational energy. Gravitational energy could only cause an inward contracting collapse or crunch such as in a black hole but could not lead to the observed expansion of the universe. Positive expansion energy is required to create or store a gravitational potential energy (termed negative). Negative GPE has no existence of its own without the positive expansive energy. This fundamental misconception has led to various weird concepts such as inflation, multiple universes, fine tuning, dark energy, dark matter, big bang, and unexplained weirdness of QM including the collapse of the wave function, etc.  

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>

> To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
>
>  
>

> Dear Kashyapji,
>
>  
>
> Thanks.
>
>  
>
> I have sent another email to Dr. Ram today, with copy marked to you, regarding my views on the positive and negative energies.  What I want to reiterate that both attraction ( gravitation) and repulsion are some opposite mechanical effects of the energy. The energy manifests thru its various effects mechanical motion, heat and light and physics always studies these effects which can be detected by senses. But these effects per se are not causes, The cause behind all  these effects could be some ontological existence ( which in Physics we call as energy) but Physics does not go into the issue of the ontology of energy. So from the "effect" perspective, gravitational and mass energy may be positive and negative implying they can cancel each other and thus their net effect may be zero. However, from the "cause" perspective i.e ontological perspective due to which effects arise, energy has to be positive only implying having a positive existence Therefore, corresponding to the infinite ontology of the energy of our observable universe, there should also be infinite ontology at the primal stage also. This perspective seems to me quite logical.
>
>  There is all the possibility  that at the primal stage, the infinite ontological existence might not be in the format of space/time and known physical energy and matter and that form of the infinite ontological existence unknown to the current Physics. After all, even in the current Physics 96% of the ontology of the universe is represented by the dark energy and dark matter. However, various hypothesis/theories dealing with the creation of the universe from vacuum, BBTs and Inflation fail to account for this 96% of the energy of the universe in form of dark energy and dark matter. After all how any theory of the universe can be called scientific if it is based on only 4% of the energy of the universe? And then dark energy/dark matter are not the inventions or hypothesis of some Saankhya or Upnishadic or Vedantic philosophies, which you say were written thousand of years ago. Dark energy and dark matter, representing majority 96% of the energy of the universe, are the inventions/hypothesis of this very Physics which proposes  hypothesis of the creation of the universe from quantum vacuum following by Big Bang and cosmic inflation. In my view, any scientific theory which does not take into account the dark matter and dark energy, representing 96% energy of the universe, can't be truly scientific since it  will be based on only 4% of the energy of the universe.
>
>  
>
> Regarding  Saankhyan/Upnishadic/Vedantic models for the creation of the universe, the primordial level for the creation is much deeper than the primordial level as adopted as adopted by the current scientific cosmological models. Between the primordial level of Saankhayan/Vedantic cosmological models and the primordial level of the current scientific cosmological models, large realms of the physical nature encompassing  the Causal and Astral Realm of nature. Corresponding to the cosmological realm of the Causal and Astral Realm, there are Causal and Astral bodies the way corresponding to the physical realm of nature ( represented by the baryonic matter and 4 forces), there is the physical body which survives for 40-50 or at the most for 100 years in the current period. The Causal and astral bodies survive the death of the physical body and recycle from birth to birth in a very long cycle of births and deaths. Anyway, the knowledge of the Astral and Causal realm ia achievable in the state of Samaadhi though by the current objective scientific methodology, it is not possible to detect and sense these realm of nature.
>
>  
>
> Regards.
>
>  
>
> Vinod Sehgal
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 9:05 PM, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear Vinod,
>
> I maintain that, whatever differences there may be in the view points, dear (first name, you might add ji if you feel like!) is the polite and nice way to carry conversations further, especially while conversing at a distance.
>
> Anyway, as I said before, our differences may be due to our attitudes.  Established physics (science in general) takes priority in my mind compared to whatever was thought or written thousands of years back.  I am certainly interested in Vedanta, Sankhya etc. Whenever talks on such subjects are available in my neighborhood, I go and listen and occasionally read about them also. (In fact a Vedantic scholar, from a city about 200 miles from here, has kindly agreed to come here once a month and talk on Vedanta for several hours. These days he is talking about Prashnopanishad!)  On the other hand you seem to have priority in believing such things even if it conflicts with established science. That is fine with me. Different people have different frames of mind.
>
> Now as I said, I am talking about physical models of origin of universe for which there is majority consensus; surely not 100 percent! Nothing in science is 100 percent nor should it be. Scientists should be willing to drop their favorite model at the drop of a hat, when evidence is pointing against it.
>
> I do not understand why we get hung up on sign of gravitational energy. Where you locate your zero for potential energy is arbitrary and results of calculation cannot change by changing location of zero. Since gravity is always attractive, it is convenient to set zero when objects are at infinite distance from each other. This makes gravitational energy negative when they are at any other distance. We teach this in Freshmen College and high school physics all the time. If there is a college nearby, you might talk to a physics professor. Of course once you choose location of zero, you cannot keep on changing during the calculation. This is some 400 years of wisdom since Newton’s time. NASA and ISRO send spacecraft all the time with this kind of calculations. Their success should be an evidence for correctness of these ideas! While I was writing this, I saw an e-mail by Vimal where he explains the negative sign in an elaborate way. As far as I can tell, there is nothing non-ontological about negative gravitational potential energy. This is just a book keeping method which is consistent.
>
> Now, fluctuations in quantum fields come from uncertainty principle. When you confine quantum fields in a small space, the fields and energy will have to fluctuate. If you believe in quantum physics, there is no choice. How can our universe come about from a fluctuating quantum field is a subtle question; more philosophical than physics question. “This negates the whole concept of the universe emanating out as per some Laws/Rules.” No. This is completely consistent with uncertainty principle. If you believe in quantum physics, you have to believe in uncertainty principle. There is no choice! You cannot pick and choose in science. The whole science comes as a package! In a way this question is similar to the debate about evolution and creationism. Creationists would argue that if the complete blueprint of how to design life is known to God for example, it should not take 4 Billion years of trial and error to produce human beings.  Scientists, even believers, would say that is how the laws of nature operate.
>
> The universe in the beginning had minimum entropy. It has been increasing ever since then. If there is a big crunch and start over, there will have to be some mechanism to reduce the entropy.
>
> Again, all of this is consistent with the laws of physics as of today. They may look weird from our everyday experience. But we should not expect that universe should be consistent with what a little human being can rationalize from his/her everyday experience!!
>
> Best Regards.
>
> Kashyap
>
>  
>
>  
>
> From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodsehgal1955@gmail. com]
> Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 3:02 AM

> To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
> Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
>
>  

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[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Avtar,

 

Thanks.

 

Just looking at plots, your model fits look great and gives more confidence. I need to read your articles more seriously to understand them to give better comments.

 

Please also try to fit the data along with other models fits that are plotted in (Wright, 2015); for example,

 

10000*O/H on x-axis vs.100*He/H on y-axis

 

Redshift vs. T_CMB

 

Redshift vs. DM

l_eff vs. [l(l+1)C_l/2p]^1/2  that also includes sCDM, Lemda-CDM, and QSSC

 

If they are a better fit then you can try publishing in Nature, which has a very high impact factor.

 

Cheers!

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

[Serge Patlavskiy]

-

Ram Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> on August 17, 2017 wrote:

> I agree with Avtar that "God is a fictitious human construct".

.

[S.P.] By "God", or "gods" I would suggest to mean an extraterrestrial scientists-geneticists who have produced human species of different races in their different laboratories on the Earth. One proof. The case is that males of all the mammals, including the human-like apes, have such an important part of their skeleton as baculum -- a penis bone. But human males haven't. 

.

So, where this bone disappeared? It is clearly not evolutionary advantageous to have no baculum since its absence makes the human species less reproductive. The only possibility is that it disappeared in result of genetic manipulations, and, instead, the whole morphology of the Human male's reproductive organ was rebuilt (I mean, blood pumping, and so on).

.

See also my reply to Shilpi Saxena's question "... what is the meaning or definition of God?" (the text-file is attached below).

.

Best,

Serge Patlavskiy

---

From: "'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; "vinodse...@gmail.com" <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 7:14 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

I agree with Avtar that “God is a fictitious human construct”.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Вірусів немає. www.avast.com

[Asingh2384]

Dear Ram:

URM treats wholesome reality at total mass/energy/space/time level which is all inclusive of lower level fragmented realities of particles, creation/dilation of matter to consciousness, bottom-up/top-down approach, and vindicated by empirical observations of Hubble, supernova expansion, star velocities in galaxies data validating dark energy and dark matter. Wright's data does not address all these observations and not as comprehensive at the top level universe expansion behavior.

Please read my papers/book and then ask rather than repeating same questions again and again.

Thanks

Avtar

-----Original Message-----
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; joseph.e.mccard <joseph....@gmail.com>
Cc: vinodsehgal1955 <vinodse...@gmail.com>; paul.werbos <paul....@gmail.com>; vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>; georgeweis <georg...@aol.com>; vvimaldhye <vvima...@gmail.com>; alfredo.pereira <alfredo...@gmail.com>; sklein <skl...@berkeley.edu>; sisir.sisirroy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; online_sadhu_sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>; matters-of-mind <matters...@googlegroups.com>; carey <ca...@theembassyofpeace.com>; joshua_888 <joshu...@yahoo.com>; alfredo.pereira <alfredo...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 22, 2017 10:08 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

Dear Avtar ji,

 

Thanks.

 

Since you have not addressed my queries, your claims are unclear. How can URM have both science based bottom-up (from potentiality to actuality) and OOO-God theory based top-down (from God to us to Tanmātra to elementary particles)? Just saying all-inclusive is simply a jargon, you need to demonstrate it. How do you convert consciousness to table and vice-versa? Did you plot URM’s predictions in the data shown in (Wright, 2015)?

Do you really fully understand eDAM and Alfredo’s TAM? Thus, you have a long way to go to claim as you have done. I am sorry but this type of statements decreases creditability.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Tuesday, 22 August 2017 11:44 AM, Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com> wrote:

Dear All:

Apparent dual or multiple aspects of manifested relative temporal realities are only misconceptions or illusions of the limited mind or ego. 

 

Non-duality or Unity or Oneness is directly predicted by the universal laws of conservation - "Existence is conserved in all apparent forms of manifestation."

 

Any theory or model (URM) that follows the laws of conservation naturally or automatically accounts for non-duality as well as bottom-up/top-down aspects.

 

The so-called all-inclusive sub-Planckian or Zero Point Field is mathematically predicted and vindicated by the URM. There is no need to reinvent it.

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

-----Original Message-----
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
To: Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>
Cc: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; vinodsehgal1955 <vinodse...@gmail.com>; paul.werbos <paul....@gmail.com>; vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>; georgeweis <georg...@aol.com>; vvimaldhye <vvima...@gmail.com>; alfredo.pereira <alfredo...@gmail.com>; sklein <skl...@berkeley.edu>; sisir.sisirroy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>; Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mi...@googlegroups.com>; Carey <ca...@theembassyofpeace.com>; Joshua Ben <joshu...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Aug 21, 2017 7:55 pm
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism

In that case, you are following the top-down OOO-God theory approach. The eDAM follows the science-based bottom-up approach (from potentiality to actuality). 

If the both approaches are correct, then the eDAM might be related to the start of the first cycle of the universe in which OOO-God is fully manifested after we are manifested from the unmanifested state of the primal entity (Brahman). In other words, Brahman needs to manifest in us in usual 3 states (sleep, dream and wakeful states). Then some of us must have attained the highest state of Samādhi state, which is the state of godly virtues (such as egoless humility, compassion, and appropriate love for all). Then, this first set of enlightened humans must create a set of mukta (liberated) souls, which is God. This is part of co-evolution of unmanifested Brahman to fully manifested Brahman (the mental aspect of its state is cosmic consciousness). Then, your top-down OOO-God takes over from the second cycle of the universe and onwards. I do not know if we are in the first cycle or many cycles of the universe have already occurred.

This is simply a speculative hypothesis for both bottom-up and top-down playing their roles. Perhaps, that is what Avtar (Singh) meant that his framework includes both approaches. In this way, science and religions might be telling us complementary stories. If this is true, then science and religions might come closer in the real sense. However, in both cases, the states of Brahman must be dual-aspect entities.

 

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Monday, 21 August 2017 9:40 PM, Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:

"CC is misnomer; it is Neutral Monism, where both aspects are latent in unmanifested state.  Both mental and physical aspects interdependently co-arise when necessary conditions are satisfied." (Ram)

Yes. It would be a misnomer, if we were not discussing the manifested physical and mental cosmos created by the Cosmic Consciousness.

Cosmic Consciousness is a by-product of action, where action is the inner vitality of the Divine Power of the inner universe. Cosmic Consciousness is the result of inner vitality's desire* and impetus to fully manifest itself.

As you suggest, mental and physical aspects actually interdependently co-arose (both existed simultaneously) when the desire and impetus to do so occurred, thus fulfilling the necessary conditions.  

Neutral Monism is then a generalization of Dual Aspect Monism. I specify Dual Aspect Monism, as I understand this thread, we are discussing physical and psychological reality. 

*note: the word "desire" being used here in the sense of will which is exercised in implementing the Divine Plan. 

🤔