RE: The Nature of the Absolute (Parabrahman, Ultimate Reality, Void)
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Kushal,
Thanks for the link. Like Alex I was also at the ICCR meeting in Dec. 2016 and gave a talk. I do remember that according to some at the meeting concept of Shunyata and Brahman are same. Most likely Alex does not agree with this (?). I will reread Alex’s talk . In my talk (which will be published in the proceedings) the emphasis was that both of these concepts find close parallelism in modern physics.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: Kushal Shah [mailto:atma...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 4:19 AM
To: Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com>
Cc: Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Stanley A. KLEIN <skl...@berkeley.edu>; Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>;
Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>; Whit Blauvelt <wh...@csmind.com>; john.kineman <john.k...@colorado.edu>; From the Chief Editor, J. Integr. Neurosci., IOS Press <pozn...@biomedical.utm.my>; Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com>;
Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: The Nature of the Absolute (Parabrahman, Ultimate Reality, Void)
The difference between Buddhism (Shunyata) and Advaita (Brahman) is not really as wide as it may appear to be on the surface. Ironically, some scholars even consider Adi Sankaracharya to be really a Buddhist in the guise of a Hindu. Here is a very interesting attempt to reconcile these seemingly opposing views:
Best,
Kushal.
_________________________________________
Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
On Mon, May 28, 2018, 12:08 PM Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Joe,
Thanks for your well reasoned response to my deliberately provocative email.
I have attended and presented at some Indian Council for Cultural Research
(ICCR) meetings, one of which concerned Shunya and the Quantum Vacuum,
and was addressed by the ICCR President.
The kind of comments I made were partly
informed by what I learned there.
Best wishes,
Alex
On 28 May 2018 at 05:01, Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Joseph - RE: Your - "As I see it, there is nonbeing that is at the core of our being."
ME(Alex wrote:): How can you make the Nagarjuna statement on Anatman as your Core Belief
under a title line on Parabrahman, which was the very line of thinking that
Buddhism in general and Nagarjuna in particular saw it as their duty to destroy?
joe wrote: I did not know that was one of his pet peeves. 😂
Nonbeing is certainly not stagnant. It is vitalized energy with all the potential for Being. It was a state of agony (samsara) in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known. It was a state between inner vitality's desire and impetus to completely materialize itself, and its inability to do so. This dilemma resulted in action, change, from action working on itself, it created identities.
For the purpose of discussion, the terms "action" and "identity" must be separated, but basically no such separation exists. An identity is a dimension of existence, action within action, an unfolding of action upon itself -and through this interweaving of action with itself, through this re-action, an identity was formed. And so, through a series of dilemmas, action became all possible actions, actions that mattered, physical substance. Action becomes physical.
Such transformations are the background to my recent post, in response to your, on the thread, Science of Consciousness Conference re Catastrophe theory. Perhaps you can see the connection? and the "coincidence", as the later post was sent before I read your this reply.
Alex wrote: Why does Adishankara support the idea of Brahman as a positive form of Being?
joe wrote: I am obviously not as well versed in Indian metaphysics as you, but I can say, if you review my previous paragraph, that, in most interpretations of "positive", the description I gave is a positive one.
Alex wrote: And deny the use of the word 'being' as restricted only to the manifest reality?
joe wrote: There is an ambiguity in that sentence, so let me try to speak to it, and you can correct me as you see. I feel confident about applying the term "Nonbeing". In the beginning, All That Is was all there was, but it could only know its magnificence conceptually, not experientially. There was nothing else to experience. And so -All That Is...was not, for in the absence of something else, All That Is, is not. Hence Non Being.
Alex wrote: To put it another way: Why does the doctrine of Purna provide a more comfortable path for the aspirant than the doctrine of Shunya?
joe wrote: From my limited perspective, emptiness is not possible, fulfillment only create the possibility of further fulfillment. I am happy with the possibility of free will in a creative framework.
IN THIS REGARD:
There is a lovely story in Sri M's Autobiography - 'Apprenticed to a Himalayan Master',
where he describes a meeting between his Master and a former Shankaracharya
turned Avadhuta who confessed to still feeling unfulfilled.
His Master (a Direct Disciple of the Great Babaji) stated that for intellectuals this problem
is not uncommon. He specifically advised his questioner "To Let the Great Silence Enter In".
At that level, Fulfilment (Purna - Fullness) comes to Find You, you can't grasp it yourself (principally because it is beyond the reach of the Ahamkar, the little ego, which is all any one of us has to 'Reach' with.)
joe wrote: Is this like the principle: Be Do Have.
🤔 joe, PhsG, proud high school graduate 😂
Possibly the secret in that case was not so much nonbeing, as Non-Grasping. Aparigraha!
Best wishes to all,
Alex
On 27 May 2018 at 19:13, Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the Nature of the Absolute? As I see it, there is nonbeing that is at the core of our being, the cause and basis of the universe of which we are a part. Hence, we cannot get away from it. It is a state, not of nothingness, but a state in which probabilities and possibilities are known and anticipated but blocked from expression.
Yet, the above are just words that represent the Absolute. They are not the Absolute. It is currently beyond the endpoint of intellectual speculation. It is Unknowable. The Vedas and the Upanishads emphasize that the highest and subtlest Principle, is beyond speech and thought. And so we have tools of knowing, experience and feelings.
It was a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known.
Each self,as a part of the Absolute retains the memory of that state. Therefore, each minute consciousness is endowed with the impetus toward survival, change, development, and creativity. All evidence suggests that is true.
💃
--
Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.)
Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,
SVYASA, Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle
Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India
Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789
____________________________________________________________
--
Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.)
Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,
SVYASA, Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle
Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India
Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789
____________________________________________________________
Kushal Shah
Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Kushal,
Sorry Kushal! I will have to be blunt! A typical physicist does not need Vedanta any more than a typical Vedantin needs physics. So to say “crying over shoulders” is not appropriate! In fact our daily life is wrapped up in science and technology so much that it is exactly opposite, i e. Vedantins use science more than physicists use Vedanta. I believe you have cell phone in your pocket right now and your house and the places you go to are full of technical gadgets. Presumably you visit doctors, hospitals and use cars and airplanes ! So it is too late for complaints like this!! We have to go back to caves in Himalayas! So my statements are made for advance towards some mutual understanding between the two areas. Otherwise physicists will go there way ( as western minded physicists do anyway, calling Vedanta non sense) and let Vedantins go their way to Himalayan caves if they want!
So there should be mutual respect for the two fields. It cannot be one way street!
Siegfried Bleher
Dear Kushal,
Thank you for linking to the article on Sunya and Atman—it is very illuminating. I include the following quotes from the article:
“Sunyata is a state of pure consciousness that one would revert to if one were able to empty oneself of any illusory constructions or impressions of an unchanging or permanent reality,whether of things or persons
Atman-consciousness is a kind of consciousness-as-nothingness in asmuch as it is empty of the attributes of ego-specific subjectivity.”
As a practitioner of both vipassana and yoga, I would offer that, in agreement with Professor Boruah, there is essentially complementarity between these viewpoints and ultimately convergence. Difference is evident primarily from the perspective of the mind that discerns self from other.
The difference is that between affirming the experience of ‘being that’ and ‘pointing to that’ which is free of individualized ego-centered consciousness. These are complementary viewpoints, not conflicting at their heart.
A metaphor I find useful is that of an ocean: the ocean can be empty of waves or perturbations, but it is still very much present as ocean.
As a physicist, I agree in a limited way with your assessment that “The fundamental assumptions or starting point of physics and Advaita/Buddhism are starkly different”. For me, the fundamental assumption of physics is not the specific axioms we may offer as the ground of a particular theory, rather it is the fact that we begin with empirical ‘primitives’ (observations, qualia). The axioms and resulting theories arise from patterns we see, their mathematical representations, and subsequent empirical testing. In formal (meditative) practices we also begin with ‘primitives’ which are the sensory data, notice patterns that emerge from persistent practice, and arrive at ‘theories’ (e.g. Eight-fold Path, Ashtanga Yoga). In particular, the fact that quantum mechanics arrives at complementarity (here I am not highlighting any conflicts in the many interpretations of QM, only the concepts that have so far withstood the test of time) points not merely to a quirky property of matter at small scales, but rather it points to the same ontological truth that underlies the disagreements between Advaita and Buddhism.
Sincerely,
Siegfried
From the article Kushal refers to:
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Kushal Shah
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 11:23 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The Nature of the Absolute (Parabrahman, Ultimate Reality, Void)
Dear Kashyap,
It is certainly true that many physicists take deep interest in Advaita and Buddhism, since it provides them some basis for some of their bizzare theories. But I find this somewhat problematic since scientists often use these concepts as a shoulder to cry upon rather than one to stand upon and see farther. The fundamental assumptions or starting point of physics and Advaita/Buddhism are starkly different and it's almost impossible to have a genuine acceptability for both at the same level. Genuine Advaitins like to think of Physics the same way as Physicists like to think of engineering: a gross approximation made to fulfill practical needs.
Best,
Kushal.
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Sabhajit,
I agree that the fundamental requirement for a physics (scientific in general) theory is agreement of the model with (sensory) experiments. But I will point out that both the questions you raise do come up in physics. Idea of underlying reality is usually forced on physicists by experiments. For example, overwhelmingly large number of physicists believe in local but non real quantum world because of wave particle duality and Bell type experiments. “why are there things rather than nothing.” comes up in cosmology and even though the universe is supposed to come from vacuum, it is not nothing as imagined by common man. It has quantum fields built in! So a physicist has to worry about definition of “nothing” also!!
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: Sabhajit Mishra [mailto:smish...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 1:04 PM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: The Nature of the Absolute (Parabrahman, Ultimate Reality, Void)
It is true a vedantin lives in the world of senses but he wants to understand the underlying reality thereof; to the phycisist this question does not make any sense.this idea has been most beautifully captured by Heidegger in his question: why are there things rather than nothing. To the scientist in general the question of nothing makes no sense.
On May 28, 2018 21:23, "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Kushal,
Sorry Kushal! I will have to be blunt! A typical physicist does not need Vedanta any more than a typical Vedantin needs physics. So to say “crying over shoulders” is not appropriate! In fact our daily life is wrapped up in science and technology so much that it is exactly opposite, i e. Vedantins use science more than physicists use Vedanta. I believe you have cell phone in your pocket right now and your house and the places you go to are full of technical gadgets. Presumably you visit doctors, hospitals and use cars and airplanes ! So it is too late for complaints like this!! We have to go back to caves in Himalayas! So my statements are made for advance towards some mutual understanding between the two areas. Otherwise physicists will go there way ( as western minded physicists do anyway, calling Vedanta non sense) and let Vedantins go their way to Himalayan caves if they want!
So there should be mutual respect for the two fields. It cannot be one way street!
Best Regards.
Kashyap
Kushal Shah
Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
Ganesh L S
Kushal stated:
If physicists wish their subject to be taken seriously by Vedantins, the first criteria is that they must be willing to question all their fundamental assumptions including that of objectivity. There's no point trying to row an anchored boat.
A truthful observation and a wonderful metaphor. Perhaps there is a problem with the length of the anchor-rope; is it infinite? And, does the boat really matter at all? Do we even have to consider anyone or thing in the boat, the calmness around or is
it raging winds on the contrary, the roughness of the ocean, and so on? To make matters even more challenging we consider first, second, third and nth person perspectives while desiring 'objectivity'.
Please let each one of us first focus on discovering our source before attempting to discover the common source of everything around. In this journey, we will necessarily have to deal with 'shoonya' and 'poorna', and perhaps simply dwell in bewilderment
and awe.
A modicum of divya drishti could help in our lonely, but uncannily collective, journeys.
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 5:16 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V
Cc: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The Nature of the Absolute (Parabrahman, Ultimate Reality, Void)
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Kushal Shah
In particular, the fact that quantum mechanics arrives at complementarity (here I am not highlighting any conflicts in the many interpretations of QM, only the concepts that have so far withstood the test of time) points not merely to a quirky property of matter at small scales, but rather it points to the same ontological truth that underlies the disagreements between Advaita and Buddhism.
Andris Heks
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: The Nature of the Absolute (Parabrahman, Ultimate Reality, Void)
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Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear All,
Debates on consciousness has taken an interesting turn towards conditions in India, poverty and lack of hygiene etc.! I grew up in India until I was 23 and have settled in U.S. since 1960.We were from a low middle class, but we had running water few hours a day and Indian style toilette inside the rented house. We visit India every now and then. So I am familiar with both the worlds. True, there is still lot of poverty and lack of hygiene especially in villages and small towns, principal reason being shortage of water. But this is being remedied by building dams ,canals , wells and water reservoirs all over. Prime minister Mody made an interesting call to build toilettes instead of temples! When we visit our relatives (middle to upper middle income , not necessarily rich), we find all of them have filtered drinkable water and western style toilettes in their homes. Eating food from vendors on street is still not safe especially for western immune systems! But there are very good clean restaurants. The material progress is absolutely amazing. There are fancy high rises in every city and 6 lane high ways at lot of places. Middle class people (there may be 3 to 400 million of them In India now!) can afford cars. When I was growing up only super rich could afford cars. Cars and industrial growth has of course brought in pollution and it will have to be solved like Los Angelis, may be by using electricity. Does Joe realize that India put a space craft in Martian orbit at the first attempt? Indian IT people , scientists and engineers are respected everywhere. Many CEOs of major companies in U.S grew up in India.
Things are good enough so if I got my PH. D. today, I might have considered moving back. Now I am almost 81, my children , grandchildren and relatives are here. So it is kind of too late to move back. But we do visit. With his multi million dollars Joe should plan a visit to India.
What about U.S.? Middle and upper income people are doing fine. But in most cities, there is minimal public transportation. Talk about poor people in inner cities. They do have toilettes, but there is lot of trash at lot of places. Some of them cannot afford hot water, nutritional foods and medical treatments. Many of them depend on govt. welfare. Because of the gun violence, poor parents are not sure if their kids would come back home in the evening. So overall it is not paradise either. The govt. and people need to work a lot at making it a better society.
Well ,this rant is too long! But I had to say something.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: From the Chief Editor, J. Integr. Neurosci., IMR Press [mailto:pozn...@biomedical.utm.my]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 5:55 AM
To: Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com>
Cc: Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>; Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com>; Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Stanley A. KLEIN <skl...@berkeley.edu>;
Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Whit Blauvelt <wh...@csmind.com>; john.kineman <john.k...@colorado.edu>; Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: The Nature of the Absolute (Parabrahman, Ultimate Reality, Void)
Alex, Thanks for the update on toilet hygiene in India as exposed by Joe below. Let me say why Joe's email is to the point against idealism. He is saying if there is cosmic consciousness then why the hygiene issue "on the side of the roads and RR tracks"? This answer is clear. There is no cosmic consciousness. When your material self disintegrates your consciousness follows. There is nothing beyond materialism including excrement.
joe wrote: I see no beauty in India. Only extreme poverty, extreme air pollution, they shit on the side of the roads and RR tracks, live in mud huts and hovels, and from their call centers, keep calling me, my family members, and my friends, on my phone, or trying to contact me and scam me out of my hard earned money, through the internet. If you think that's all beautiful, I feel sorry for you.
-------
Prof Roman R. Poznanski,
Director of Artificial Consciousness Laboratory
Department of Clinical Sciences
Faculty of Bioscience and Medical Engineering (FBME)
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia
Building V01, Block A, 4th Floor, Room 04-50-01
81310 UTM, Skudai, Johor, Malaysia
Tel: +607-555-8496
Mobile: +60-14-2347351
Email: pozna...@biomedical.utm.my
Websites: http://romanpoznanski.blogspot.com
and
Chief-Editor,
Journal of Integrative Neuroscience
On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 9:08 AM, Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear All,
I have lived in for ten years in rural Karnataka close to Bangalore.
I have never suffered from the water, The introduction of osmotic
filters completed solved that problem in the towns and cities years ago.
Sewage disposal is a problem. So is the challenge of getting those
brought up without sanitation to defecate in sanitary ways.
I have had to protest to our university authorities when visiting
builders living in tents on campus were not given toilets to use,
nor directed to the public toilets close-by on campus.
Toilet training is needed yes, but modern Indian cities now have
widescale levels of excellent housing and luxury that are
impossible to find at an equivalent price in the west.
All best wishes,
Alex
On 29 May 2018 at 14:29, From the Chief Editor, J. Integr. Neurosci., IMR Press <pozn...@biomedical.utm.my> wrote:
Alex Is Joe right here? I have never been in India, but I know the water problem is rampant. How do you manage?
joe wrote: I see no beauty in India. Only extreme poverty, extreme air pollution, they shit on the side of the roads and RR tracks, live in mud huts and hovels, and from their call centers, keep calling me, my family members, and my friends, on my phone, or trying to contact me and scam me out of my hard earned money, through the internet. If you think that's all beautiful, I feel sorry for you.
-------
Prof Roman R. Poznanski,
Director of Artificial Consciousness Laboratory
Department of Clinical Sciences
Faculty of Bioscience and Medical Engineering (FBME)
Universiti Teknologi Malaysia
Building V01, Block A, 4th Floor, Room 04-50-01
81310 UTM, Skudai, Johor, Malaysia
Tel: +607-555-8496
Mobile: +60-14-2347351
Email: pozna...@biomedical.utm.my
Websites: http://romanpoznanski.blogspot.com
and
Chief-Editor,
Journal of Integrative Neuroscience
On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 6:21 PM, Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:
Kushal,
Hinduism is a much broader umbrella which has many other divergent schools of thought in it.
joe wrote: Too many. Why? Because they can't agree on anything among themselves, that's why!
Yes Joe, that's right and that's what makes Hinduism so beautiful
joe wrote: I see no beauty in India. Only extreme poverty, extreme air pollution, they shit on the side of the roads and RR tracks, live in mud huts and hovels, and from their call centers, keep calling me, my family members, and my friends, on my phone, or trying to contact me and scam me out of my hard earned money, through the internet. If you think that's all beautiful, I feel sorry for you.
Kushal wrote: and gives it the ability to nurture new ideas no matter where they come from.
joe wrote: Isn't Vinod a Hindu, or is he a backsliding Muslim? He is a counter-example to your claim about openness to new claims.
Kushal wrote: Some people find this confusing since they are seeking objective truths.
joe wrote: I hope you are not looking for "objective" truth, because, such things as confirmation bias, and personal belief systems, prevent it.
Kusghal wrote: Hinduism doesn't turn them away either, but only says that look for that objective answer in your own experience and not in mechanistic measurements.
joe wrote: Why would they turn them away, if like Vinod, that's what they want, to impose their own ideas on everyone else. You seem like a good guy, but I think, you, also, have been misled.
😕
Siegfried Bleher
Hi Kushal,
Complementarity in quantum physics is the inability to simultaneously specify (measure) two canonically conjugate physical observables of a given object, such as corresponding components of position and momentum. Hence, according to Heisenberg uncertainty principle, specificity in one complementary variable implies uncertainty in the other. This points to complementarity of spatial and temporal characteristics of any observable object. Similarly, absorption in ‘being’ (“locating the self in the present”) dissolves spatial localizability of the (subjective) self; locating the self in space (“I am this body” or “I am in this body”) surrenders localizability in the present.
Of course, there are more subtle implications of this comparison, if taken further. For example, surrendering spatial localizability also implies complementarity of number and identity—if I am not spatially localizable, then I am also not distinguishable from other.
Best wishes,
Siegfried
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