Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum Physics

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jim kowall

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May 28, 2017, 2:27:41 PM5/28/17
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Dear Kashyap


I've copied an email you sent a few days ago inquiring into the connection of Vedanta to the nature of consciousness and quantum physics. I've also copied my reply to you and a reply to Vinod about the issue of ontology. I'd like to keep this conversation going due to your interest in Advaita, which is the only way to understand these connections.


By the way, the holographic principle supersedes quantum theory since it is a way of unifying quantum theory with relativity theory. To my knowledge, it is the only logically consistent geometric mechanism of unification, as Amanda Gefter has argued as she surveys the landscape of modern physics in her recent book Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn. All the other responses to your question I've seen do not seem to take unification into account, and are based on archaic arguments about quantum theory that date back to almost a century ago. As Amanda argues in her book, the unification of quantum theory with relativity theory has the nature of a geometric mechanism rather than a set of master equations or a theory of everything. We call this geometric mechanism the holographic principle. To put it in the context of the big bang creation event, as dark energy is expended, which is the accelerated expansion of space that arises in relativity theory with a positive cosmological constant and expands relative to the central point of view of an observer, a cosmic horizon arises that surrounds the observer and limits the observer's observations of things in space.


If we apply non-commutative geometry to the observer's horizon, position coordinates on the horizon are no longer a continuum, but are quantized in a pixelated way, where the pixel size is about a Planck area. Position coordinates on the horizon are now represented by a finite number of bits of information, which typically arise as the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where the number of pixels is given in terms of the horizon surface area A as n=A/4(Planck area). Each pixel encodes a bit of information. In this way, the observer's cosmic horizon becomes a holographic screen. The observer's space-time geometry is then a holographic projection from the screen to the observer's central point of view. The observer's holographic screen has a temperature and appears to emit thermal radiation called Hawking radiation. Ted Jacobson has shown that Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric, which dynamically describe that space-time geometry, naturally arise from the holographic principle as a thermal average or a thermodynamic equation of state that is only valid as a low energy limit near thermal equilibrium.


All the quantum fields of the standard model of particle physics then arise from Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric as extra components of the space-time metric though the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism of extra compactified dimensions of space. We finally end up with something that looks like the quantum theory of particles, but the logical progression is the expression of dark energy that gives rise to a cosmic horizon and non-commutative geometry that implies the holographic principle, which implies Einstein's field equations as a low energy limit that is valid only as a thermal average, which implies the standard model of particle physics through the usual unification mechanisms.


The big question is why is dark energy expended in the first place? What exists before dark energy is expended? Why do we have a big bang creation event? Why all of these geometric mechanisms that finally give rise to a world of space and time that appears to be filled with particles that are described by quantum theory? The holographic principle seems to tell us that this is all a big illusion, since this apparent world of space, time, matter and energy is all a holographic projection from the observer's holographic screen to the observer's central point of view. It even seems that this holographic projection is animated over a sequence of screen outputs, like the animated images of a movie the observer is watching on a screen. All the debate about the quantum nature of observation is about the nature of a screen output.


The copied emails below try to answer these questions in the spirit of Advaita. In a fundamental way, Advaita is about what exists before the world is created. Until we confront these questions, it would seem to me all other questions are irrelevant. In the spirit of the famous Einstein quote "I want to know the mind of God; the rest are mere details".


To: Dr. Robert Boyer and other interested readers,

Dear Robert,

Please feel free to call me kashyap. Recently my name was added to this google group. I am a retired physics professor and like you have been interested in physics, Vedanta and consciousness. For consciousness I am in the initial learning stage. I do not have any ‘pet theory’ on consciousness! I have been glancing at your interesting papers.  I may have some questions after I read your papers carefully. But here is one question which comes to my mind immediately.

Do you believe from your Vedic model that Bohm’s model about explicate and implicate order is essentially correct?

I should say that purely from physics point of view, Bohm’s interpretation is not doing well. It is true that in spite of 90 years debate about interpretation of quantum physics, there is no consensus on the issue of interpretation. But there have been polls amongst physicists about various interpretations. Usually Copenhagen interpretation gets top votes (not majority though) and Bohm’s theory gets practically zero votes. Admittedly, science should not be done by popularity contests! But the fact remains that Bohm’s theory has serious problems with theory of relativity and its insistence on particle trajectories being real. So overwhelming number of physicists do not agree with the model. This would include recent attempts to restore Bohm’s model.

As I see it, majority of physicists believe in non-real interpretation of quantum physics. This was clear from 1920s when wave-particle duality was accepted. But more recently, experiments based on Bell’s theorem have made it clear that particles do not have any (real) properties before they are measured. In this context, Einstein, the greatest scientist ever born, was most likely wrong! This is mentioned in my recent article “Concepts of Reality in Hinduism and Buddhism from the perspective of a physicist”. I have posted it on this blog, sometime back. I will appreciate your comments on it when you have time to read it. It seems to me that Vedanta (following Adi Shanakaracharya’s concept of Maya or Illusion) would agree more with non-real interpretation of quantum physics than  with Bohm’s interpretation! Real interpretation may be ok for the ultimate Brahman but physics is not there yet!

Thanks.

Kashyap Vasavada


Dear Kashyap

We can't explain what consciousness is since it's the primordial or ultimate nature of existence. The only true thing we can ever say about it is that "It Is". In its primordial, ultimate, or undifferentiated state we call it the void or the true vacuum state, which is the nature of nothingness. In its differentiated state we call it individual consciousness. The holographic principle tells us that individual consciousness is only a focal point of consciousness that can only arise in relation to a holographic screen that encodes all the bits of information that describe everything observable in the observer's world, and that the focal point of consciousness is always at the central point of view of the observer's world. The observable things reduce down to bits of information encoded on the holographic screen, which is what quantum theory is all about. Bohm had the right idea about implicate order and a holographic universe since the bits of information encoded on the holographic screen are entangled like the eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where n is the number of bits of information encoded on the screen and is given in terms of the screen area A as n=A/4(Planck area). In the context of modern cosmology and the big bang event, the focal point of consciousness is the point of singularity that arises in relation to a cosmic horizon as dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space) is expended. Although Amanda Gefter is not willing to identify the void as undifferentiated consciousness, the scientific basis for this conclusion is discussed in her recent book (Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn) with logical clarity.


Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.


Dear Jim,


You wrote:

"We can't explain what consciousness is since it's the primordial or ultimate nature of existence. The only true thing we can ever say about it is that "It Is". In its primordial, ultimate, or undifferentiated state we call it the void or the true vacuum state, which is the nature of nothingness'

Void or true vacuum or nothingness in its true sense means completely devoid of any ontological reality. There is no meaning of the existence of any entity which is completely devoid of any ontological reality. Any entity, if it has some real existence, should have some ontological reality. How primordial or ultimate nature of existence, which is undifferentiated consciousness, from which all the observable and unobservable universe shall take birth can be devoid of any ontological reality.?

Yes, we could say that undifferentiated consciousness could be "nothingness" from the sense of our inability to know it. For a person with no sight or any other sense of knowledge, all the world may turn out to be "void" or "nothingness" but for a person with all the senses of knowledge intact, there is all the existence of the world with a variety of objects.

Vinod Sehgal

Dear Vinod

Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am

-Gospel of John


Brahman is the only truth, the world is illusion, and there is ultimately no difference between Brahman and Atman

-Shankara


That which permeates all, which nothing transcends, and which like the universal space around us, fills everything completely from within and without, that Supreme non-dual Brahman-that thou art

-Shankara


Ontology is the study of what exists in reality. I take reality to be ultimate reality. Like Amanda Gefter, I define ultimate reality as what is invariant for all observers. Modern physics tells us that everything in the world is radically observer dependent. All observations of things can change based upon the observer's point of view. The ultimate example of this radical observer dependence is the holographic principle, which tells us all the bits of information that define the configuration states of every observable thing the observer can observe in its world are encoded on a holographic screen. Like a screen output, in some sense the images of these things must be projected from the observer's holographic screen to the observer's point of view. This kind of holographic projection is the nature of a quantum state reduction or an observation. The observer itself can only be identified as a focal point of consciousness at the central point of view of its world that arises in relation to its holographic screen. Modern cosmology tells us the observer's world is only created (as in the big bang creation event) and comes into an apparent existence when dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that expands relative to the observer's central point of view) is expended. Dark energy is what puts the "bang" in the big bang event and gives rise to a cosmic (de Sitter) horizon that surrounds the observer at the central point of view. This cosmic horizon limits the observer's observation of things in that bounded region of space, and acts as a holographic screen that projects all the images of things in that bounded space to the observer's central point of view. In the language of relativity theory, the observer's cosmic horizon is radically observer-dependent, and so everything the observer can observe in its world is also radically observer-dependent. In other words, nothing is invariant for all observers, and so nothing is ultimately real. At best, there can only be a kind of consensual reality that observers share when their respective cosmic horizons overlap in the sense of a Venn diagram and share information, like the kind of information sharing we see in a network of screens like the internet.


The ultimate example of the radical observer dependence of everything in the observer's world is that from the observer's point of view the observer's world can disappear from existence. The observer's world only appears to come into existence when dark energy is expended, since that is how a cosmic horizon arises with the accelerated expansion of space. When energy is no longer expended, the cosmic horizon no longer arises, and so the observer no longer has a holographic screen that encodes all the bits of information for everything in its world and that projects all the images of things in that world to the observer's central point of view. When energy is no longer expended, the observer's world must disappear from existence from the observer's point of view. In relativity theory, this non-accelerated point of view is called free-fall.


What happens to the consciousness of the observer when its world disappears from existence? Truth-realized beings tell us the observer's focal point of differentiated consciousness dissolves back into the undifferentiated consciousness of the void like a drop of water dissolves into the ocean. This dissolution is described as freely falling into the void. Enlightened beings also tell us truth realization is only possible in the desireless state when the expression of all energy comes to an end. When the expression of energy comes to an end, as it eventually must since all things ultimately come to an end, the observer's world disappears from existence from the observer's point of view, the observer's consciousness returns to the void in a state of dissolution, and nothing ultimately exists.


Words and concepts form a strange kind of logical tautology, sort of like an optical illusion. They can mean different things when looked at from different points of view. The Buddha reportedly stated that "Truly, I have attained nothing from total enlightenment". From one point of view, this seems to say that he didn't attain anything, but from another point of view this says he did attain nothing. In the same way, to say "Nothing ultimately exists" can seem to say that no things exist, but from another point of view can be seen to say that nothing does exist. Nothing is what ultimately exists.


The issue of what ultimately exists or is invariant for all observers is about the nature of being. Ultimately, the undifferentiated consciousness of the void (nothingness) is what exists and so is the ultimate nature of being. We can even say the ultimate nature of existence is "being nothing". As observers, we each carry a fragment of that sense of being with us, which is the sense of being present, or the sense "I am". As a differentiated focal point of consciousness, the observer is a presence of consciousness that carries its own sense of being. It's not necessary to be anything in particular to have that sense of being, which the observer finally realizes when it returns to the void.

Vasavada, Kashyap V

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May 28, 2017, 6:08:24 PM5/28/17
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From: Vasavada, Kashyap V
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 3:13 PM
To: 'jim kowall' <jkowa...@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum Physics

 

Dear Jim,

Thanks for your e-mail about unification and Advaita philosophy. I had seen your earlier e-mail. But I was heavily engaged in replying to questions on pure physics. When I see questions on pure physics, I cannot resist temptation of answering them!! I will think about your comments. To me it seems that quantum mechanics may be a bridge between sensory and non-sensory world. Have you written an article about the matter you discuss in your comment. I would like to see a copy of that.

Best Regards.

Kashyap

JACK SARFATTI

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May 29, 2017, 4:19:06 AM5/29/17
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On May 28, 2017, at 10:57 AM, jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Kashyap

I've copied an email you sent a few days ago inquiring into the connection of Vedanta to the nature of consciousness and quantum physics.

There is no useful pragmatic connection of any mystical folklore as far as physics is concerned. There is a psychological connection for weaker minds however.

"We have no need of that hypothesis." ;-)

I've also copied my reply to you and a reply to Vinod about the issue of ontology. I'd like to keep this conversation going due to your interest in Advaita, which is the only way to understand these connections.

By the way, the holographic principle supersedes quantum theory since it is a way of unifying quantum theory with relativity theory.


Rod Sutherland has partially succeeded in doing that in a new way (for particle Bohmian 1952 quantum mechanics in contrast to quantum local gauge field theory).

1.  arXiv:1509.07380 [pdf]
Interpretation of the Klein-Gordon Probability Density
Comments: 6 pages
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
2.  arXiv:1509.02442 [pdf]
Lagrangian Description for Particle Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics -- Entangled Many-Particle Case
Comments: 34 pages
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
3.  arXiv:1509.00001 [pdf]
Energy-momentum tensor for a field and particle in interaction
Comments: 9 pages
Subjects: Classical Physics (physics.class-ph)
4.  arXiv:1502.02058 [pdf]
Naive Quantum Gravity
Subjects: General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc); Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
5.  arXiv:1411.3762 [pdf]
Lagrangian Formulation for Particle Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics: Single-Particle Case
Comments: 12 pages
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
6.  arXiv:quant-ph/0601095 [pdf]
Causally Symmetric Bohm Model
Comments: 35 pages, 5 figures, new sections 12 and 13 added
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)

The holographic principle does not do as you say. It is interesting for sure. It says ER (quantum gravity) in 3D + 1 space-time ~ EPR  (conformal quantum field theory) in 2D + 1 boundaries (more specifically "horizons"). Intuitively the quantum gravity Wheeler-foam is a hologram image of QM entanglement on 2D surfaces (hologram plates or screens) slicing the 3D hypersurfaces of spacetime. Again GR horizons seem to be the physical hologram screens, most importantly our future 2D dS (not AdS)


Technically, it came from AdS (5D)/CFT (4D) in a less physical formal picture not directly related to our actual universe.

"In theoretical physics, the anti-de Sitter/conformal field theory correspondence, sometimes called Maldacena duality or gauge/gravity duality, is a conjectured relationship between two kinds of physical theories. On one side are anti-de Sitter spaces (AdS) which are used in theories of quantum gravity, formulated in terms of string theory or M-theory. On the other side of the correspondence are conformal field theories (CFT) which are quantum field theories, including theories similar to the Yang–Mills theories that describe elementary particles.
The duality represents a major advance in our understanding of string theory and quantum gravity.[1] This is because it provides a non-perturbative formulation of string theory with certain boundary conditions and because it is the most successful realization of the holographic principle, an idea in quantum gravity originally proposed by Gerard 't Hooft and promoted by Leonard Susskind.
It also provides a powerful toolkit for studying strongly coupled quantum field theories.[2] Much of the usefulness of the duality results from the fact that it is a strong-weak duality: when the fields of the quantum field theory are strongly interacting, the ones in the gravitational theory are weakly interacting and thus more mathematically tractable. This fact has been used to study many aspects of nuclear and condensed matter physics by translating problems in those subjects into more mathematically tractable problems in string theory. ... 

The most famous example of the AdS/CFT correspondence states that type IIB string theory on the product space  is equivalent to N = 4 supersymmetric Yang–Mills theory on the four-dimensional boundary.[25] In this example, the spacetime on which the gravitational theory lives is effectively five-dimensional (hence the notation ), and there are five additional compactdimensions (encoded by the  factor). In the real world, spacetime is four-dimensional, at least macroscopically, so this version of the correspondence does not provide a realistic model of gravity. Likewise, the dual theory is not a viable model of any real-world system as it assumes a large amount of supersymmetry. Nevertheless, as explained below, this boundary theory shares some features in common with quantum chromodynamics, the fundamental theory of the strong force. It describes particles similar to the gluons of quantum chromodynamics together with certain fermions.[7] As a result, it has found applications in nuclear physics, particularly in the study of the quark–gluon plasma.[26]
Wikipedia of course
There is nothing about U1, SU2, SU3 real EM weak strong forces in AdS/CFT or am I missing something? Therefore, it is not a "theory of everything" as yet.

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N.Panchapakesan

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May 31, 2017, 11:04:38 AM5/31/17
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Kashyap, Jack and others interested
Kashyap, I liked your write up on Hinduism and
Physics (I had seen it earlier also). I include something on
Mukti and Science.
We begin with the assumption that spiritual, moral or ethical
discussion is outside the domain of natural science. Decisions about
moral and ethical questions, are ultimately linked with religious
commandments or spiritual experience commonly referred to as self
actualization (a term coined by Abraham Maslow, in 1950s in USA) or
Brahmananda also referred to as Samadhi , mukti or nirvana. This is
the realization of the unity of oneself with the whole universe
accompanied by overwhelming love and supreme joy. It could also be
described as the realization of the presence of God or universal soul
within everyone’s self. It is also advaita or non duality of atman and
Brahman.

There are at least two difficulties in proceeding from
here. Firstly and most importantly very few persons seem to achieve
mukti, in spite of some of them trying very hard. Secondly even for
the mukthas ( those who have achieved mukthi), to make a choice , one
has to be balanced and detached from vested interests like family,
community and society. However the vested interests come in, the
moment one comes down to earth from the exalted state of Samadhi and
tries to lead a normal life based on, smaller loyalties, no longer the
Brahman. We see it happening with many Godmen who try to build
institutions around themselves. We also see it in religious
institutions which do not include the whole of humanity but a
preferred group.

Mukti or self actualsation, removes duality, right from
the top, between atman ( self) and Brahman (the universal self or God
). Going down the scale, it removes the duality between selfish /
unselfish , work and duty / leisure and relaxation and so on. If I and
you are same, then where is selfishness. Helping you gives me the
greatest pleasure.

(Albert ) Einstein says “..it is the most important function of art
and science to awaken this feeling ( “Cosmic religious feeling” which
is his term for mukti or self actualization ) and keep it alive in
those who are receptive to it. (p 38, Ideas and Opinions by A.
Einstein). Meditation and other forms of yoga are practiced by large
number of persons, all over the world, especially in the eastern part
of the world. Many persons get all kinds of benefit and satisfaction
from yoga but the number who become mukt are miniscule. In the 1960s ,
at the time of Hippy movement , special mushrooms and chemicals like
LSD were discovered and used to get glimpses of mukti. Some gurus in
the west are reported to have now started using mushrooms to help in
getting experiences. Many labs are experimenting with psychedelic
medicines and the longterm effects are claimed to be positive by some
US psychologists. Many more careful lab tests are necessary before
permitting their use generally. This is one form of interaction
between mukti and science, mainly medicine administered to humam
beings . Another is the interaction with physics especially quantum
mechanics.

Quantum mechanics came with its own problems. Niels Bohr called a
statement, a “great truth” if the statement and its opposite are both
true. Thus “electron is a particle (localized)” and “electron is a
wave (non localized )” are both true. This is referred to also as
invalidity of the theory of excluded middle. This is similar to the
removal of duality in self actualisation , between selfishness and
unselfishness as pointed out by Maslow. Kashyap has already pointed
out that this makes it difficult to form pictures of reality. Such
similarities between mukti and physics led to the appearance of books
like “Tao of Physics “ by Capra, with which Jack also probably has
some connection. Is quantum mechanics another route to mukti ? I am
not very enthusiastic as QM so far has not been able to include the
human being, only the detector. Medicine and chemicals do it. They
have to be administered to human beings with qualia , ego and
emotions. I may be wrong about this. With science you never know !
regards
Panchu
N. Panchapakesan
New Delhi
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/a8820d37eff34fc0a4278272f52bfee9%40IN-CCI-EX03.ads.iu.edu.

Vasavada, Kashyap V

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May 31, 2017, 12:09:14 PM5/31/17
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Dear Panchu,
I have fond memory of your and Nargis' hospitality last year in New Delhi. Sometime I will send a private e-mail to keep in touch. Thanks for your interesting comments. One question. Do you think the experiences Rishis had in meditation are similar to those under psychedelic drugs even though most of them could not have taken these drugs? Your description of Mukti is much more general than Vedic concepts of liberation of soul etc. Well, quantum mechanics may not be a path to mukti! But it sounds like a bridge to non-sensory world. Though, of course, the story is unfinished yet. Many people challenge even the existence of non-sensory world.
Best Regards.
kashyap

jim kowall

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May 31, 2017, 3:06:36 PM5/31/17
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READ AMANDA GEFTER'S BOOK!!!!!

Tom Banks (utilizing non-commutative geometry) has developed an observer-centric description of the holographic principle in de Sitter space NOT anti-de Sitter space, and so is applicable to a de Sitter (cosmic horizon) for OUR universe with dark energy. Ted Jacobson has shown whenever the holographic principle is in effect (as Banks has shown it to be in effect on a de Sitter horizon) Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric emerge as a thermal average (thermodynamic equation of state) that is only valid as a low energy limit near thermal equilibrium. If the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism are applied to Einstein's field equations (in the context of non-commutative geometry) we end up with something that looks like 11-dimensional super-gravity (which is part of M-theory) and includes the U(1), SU(2) and SU(3) interactions. As Amanda Gefter has argued in her book, every observer has their own holographic screen (cosmic horizon) that encodes all the bits of information for the observer's world. A consensual reality only emerges if the horizons overlap and share information. The observer is at the central point of view of the observer's world, which is the origin of the frame of reference or singularity of the cosmic horizon. This is all based on our conventional understanding of physics. No mysticism is necessary.

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JACK SARFATTI

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May 31, 2017, 3:35:15 PM5/31/17
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On May 31, 2017, at 11:47 AM, jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com> wrote:

READ AMANDA GEFTER'S BOOK!!!!!

this one?

Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn | Not Even Wrong - Columbia Math

Dec 29, 2013 - Amanda Gefter, a science writer who has often covered theoretical ... has a new book coming out soon, Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn.

Amanda Gefter: "Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn" | Talks at Google ...

Dec 9, 2014 - Uploaded by Talks at Google
Science writer Amanda Gefter visited Google's Cambridge, MA office to discuss her book "Trespassing on ...

Tom Banks (utilizing non-commutative geometry) has developed an observer-centric description of the holographic principle in de Sitter space NOT anti-de Sitter space, and so is applicable to a de Sitter (cosmic horizon) for OUR universe with dark energy.


Great news. What's the URL?


Ted Jacobson has shown whenever the holographic principle is in effect (as Banks has shown it to be in effect on a de Sitter horizon) Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric emerge as a thermal average (thermodynamic equation of state) that is only valid as a low energy limit near thermal equilibrium.

OK, when happens in the far-from-thermal equilibrium "dissipative structure" regime?

If the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry


fly in the ointment - no SS seen yet.


and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism are applied to Einstein's field equations (in the context of non-commutative geometry) we end up with something that looks like 11-dimensional super-gravity (which is part of M-theory) and includes the U(1), SU(2) and SU(3) interactions. As Amanda Gefter has argued in her book, every observer has their own holographic screen (cosmic horizon) that encodes all the bits of information for the observer's world.





This is not new, e.g. Tamara Davis's PhD.



A consensual reality only emerges if the horizons overlap and share information. The observer is at the central point of view of the observer's world, which is the origin of the frame of reference or singularity of the cosmic horizon. This is all based on our conventional understanding of physics. No mysticism is necessary.

Yes, I have been saying essentially that for years. 


<DavisFig1-1Hologram(1).jpg>
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JACK SARFATTI

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I like this! I had the same whimsical thought. ;-)

Schrodinger's Cat and World History: The Many Worlds Interpretation of Alternative Facts

(Submitted on 30 Mar 2017)
I propose that much recent history can be explained by hypothesizing that sometime during the last quarter of 2016, the history of the world underwent a macroscopic quantum tunneling event, creating, according to the Many Worlds Interpretation, a new branch of the multiverse in which my consciousness and that of my readers is now trapped. The failure of much political polling is then understood by assuming that the particular branch we are on had very low amplitude in the quantum wave function of the multiverse. In this view, one must take a different attitude towards alternative facts than that proposed by the mainstream media. We know that quantum tunneling can change the low energy laws of physics in the different branches of the wave function. Alternative facts may simply be the reflection of the media's ignorance of the state of the world after a quantum transition of this magnitude.

Deriving particle physics from quantum gravity: a plan

(Submitted on 17 Sep 2009)
I give a short review of the holographic approach to quantum gravity, with emphasis on its application to deriving the properties of elementary particles.

Holographic Space-time and Black Holes: Mirages As Alternate Reality

(Submitted on 14 Jan 2014 (v1), last revised 30 Jan 2014 (this version, v2))
We revisit our investigation of the claim of [1] that old black holes contain a firewall, i.e. an in-falling observer encounters highly excited states at a time much shorter than the light crossing time of the Schwarzschild radius. We used the formalism of Holographic Space-time (HST) where there is no dramatic change in particle physics inside the horizon until a time of order the Schwarzschild radius. We correct our description of the interior of the black hole . HST provides a complete description of the quantum mechanics along any time-like trajectory, even those which fall through the black hole horizon. The latter are described as alternative factorizations of the description of an external observer, turning the mirage of the interior provided by that observer's membrane paradigm on the stretched horizon, into reality

Lectures on Holographic Space Time

(Submitted on 4 Nov 2013)
Summary of three talks on the Holographic Space Time models of early universe cosmology, particle physics, and the asymptotically de Sitter final state of our universe.
Comments:LaTex2e. 32 pages
Subjects:High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); Cosmology and Nongalactic Astrophysics (astro-ph.CO); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc)
Report number:RUNHETC-2013-1/SCIPP 13/10
Cite as:arXiv:1311.0755 [hep-th]
 (or arXiv:1311.0755v1 [hep-th] for this version)

The Membrane Paradigm and Firewalls

(Submitted on 30 Sep 2013 (v1), last revised 2 Oct 2013 (this version, v2))
Following the Membrane Paradigm, we show that the stretched horizon of a black hole retains information about particles thrown into the hole for a time of order the scrambling time m ln(m/M_P), after the particles cross the horizon. One can, for example, read off the proper time at which a particle anti-particle pair thrown into the hole, annihilates behind the horizon, if this time is less than the scrambling time. If we believe that the Schwarzschild geometry exterior to the horizon is a robust thermodynamic feature of the quantum black hole, independent of whether it is newly formed, or has undergone a long period of Hawking decay, then this classical computation shows that the "firewall" resolution of the AMPS paradox is not valid.

The Top 10^{500} Reasons Not to Believe in the Landscape

(Submitted on 28 Aug 2012)
The String Landscape is a fantasy. We actually have a plausible landscape of minimally supersymmetric AdS4solutions of supergravity modified by an exponential superpotential. None of these solutions is accessible to world sheet perturbation theory. If they exist as models of quantum gravity, they are defined by conformal field theories, and each is an independent quantum system, which makes no transitions to any of the others. This landscape has nothing to do with CDL tunneling or eternal inflation. 
A proper understanding of CDL transitions in QFT on a fixed background dS space, shows that the EI picture of this system is not justified within the approximation of low energy effective field theory. The cutoff independent physics, defined by the Euclidean functional integral over the 4-sphere admits only a finite number of instantons. Plausible extensions of these ideas to a quantum theory of gravity obeying the holographic principle explain all of the actual facts about CDL transitions in dS space, and lead to a picture radically different from eternal inflation. 
Theories of Eternal Inflation (EI) have to rely too heavily on the anthropic principle to be consistent with experiment. Given the vast array of effective low energy field theories that could be produced by the conventional picture of the string landscape one is forced to conclude that the most numerous anthropically allowed theories will disagree with experiment violently.
Comments:LaTeX. 38 pages
Subjects:High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc)
Report number:RUNHETC-2012-07 SCIPP-12/06
Cite as:arXiv:1208.5715 [hep-th]
 (or arXiv:1208.5715v1 [hep-th] for this version)
Comments:This paper has been withdrawn by the authors due to a loophole in the argument pointed out by J. Maldacena
Subjects:High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc)
Cite as:arXiv:1309.7977 [hep-th]
 (or arXiv:1309.7977v2 [hep-th] for this version)

Holographic Space-Time Does Not Predict Firewalls

(Submitted on 23 Aug 2012 (v1), last revised 19 Sep 2012 (this version, v3))
We use the formalism of Holographic Space-time (HST) to investigate the claim of [1] that old black holes contain a firewall, i.e. an in-falling observer encounters highly excited states at a time much shorter than the light crossing time of the Schwarzschild radius. This conclusion is much less dramatic in HST than in the hypothetical models of quantum gravity used in [1]. In HST there is no dramatic change in particle physics inside the horizon until a time of order the Schwarzschild radius

Pedagogical notes on black holes, de Sitter space, and bifurcated horizons

(Submitted on 22 Jul 2010)
I discuss black hole evaporation in two different coordinate systems and argue that the results of the two are compatible once one takes the holographic principle into account. de Sitter space is then discussed along similar lines. Finally I make some remarks about smooth initial conditions in GR, which evolve to space-times with bifurcate horizons, and emphasize the care one must take in identifying spaces of solutions of General Relativity which belong to the same quantum theory of gravity. No really new material is presented, but the point of view I take on all 3 subjects is not widely appreciated.
Comments:LaTeX 13 pages
Subjects:High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc)
Report number:SCIPP-2010-12, RUNHETC-2010-17
Cite as:arXiv:1007.4003 [hep-th]
 (or arXiv:1007.4003v1 [hep-th] for this version)

TASI Lectures on Holographic Space-Time, SUSY and Gravitational Effective Field Theory

(Submitted on 22 Jul 2010 (v1), last revised 23 Sep 2010 (this version, v3))
I argue that the conventional field theoretic notion of vacuum state is not valid in quantum gravity. The arguments use gravitational effective field theory, as well as results from string theory, particularly the AdS/CFT correspondence. Different solutions of the same low energy gravitational field equations correspond to different quantum systems, rather than different states in the same system. I then introduce {\it holographic space-time} a quasi-local quantum mechanical construction based on the holographic principle. I argue that models of quantum gravity in asymptotically flat space-time will be exactly super-Poincare invariant, because the natural variables of holographic space-time for such a system, are the degrees of freedom of massless superparticles. The formalism leads to a non-singular quantum Big Bang cosmology, in which the asymptotic future is required to be a de Sitter space, with cosmological constant (c.c.) determined by cosmological initial conditions. It is also approximately SUSic in the future, with the gravitino mass KΛ1/4.

Holographic space-time and its phenomenological implications

T. Banks (Rutgers NHETC and SCIPP-UCSC)
(Submitted on 15 Apr 2010)
I briefly review the theory of Holographic Space-time and its relation to the cosmological constant problem, and the breaking of supersymmetry (SUSY). When combined with some simple phenomenological requirements, these ideas lead to a fairly unique model for Tera-scale physics, which implies direct gauge mediation of SUSY breaking and a model for dark matter as a hidden sector baryon, with nonzero magnetic dipole moment.

Locality and the classical limit of quantum systems

(Submitted on 6 Jul 2009)
I argue that conventional estimates of the criterion for classical behavior of a macroscopic body are incorrect in most circumstances,because they do not take into account the locality of interactions, which characterizes the behavior of all systems described approximately by local quantum field theory. The deviations from classical behavior of a macroscopic body, except for those that can be described as classical uncertainties in the initial values of macroscopic variables,are {\it exponentially} small as a function of the volume of the macro-system in microscopic units. Conventional estimates are correct only when the internal degrees of freedom of the macrosystem are in their ground state, and the classical motion of collective coordinates is adiabatic. Otherwise, the system acts as its own environment and washes out quantum phase correlations between different classical states of its collective coordinates. I suggest that it is likely that we can only achieve meso-scopic superpositions, for systems which have topological variables, and for which we can couple to those variables without exciting phonons.
On May 31, 2017, at 12:31 PM, JACK SARFATTI <jsar...@aol.com> wrote:


On May 31, 2017, at 11:47 AM, jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com> wrote:

READ AMANDA GEFTER'S BOOK!!!!!

this one?

Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn | Not Even Wrong - Columbia Math

Dec 29, 2013 - Amanda Gefter, a science writer who has often covered theoretical ... has a new book coming out soon, Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn.
Dec 9, 2014 - Uploaded by Talks at Google
Science writer Amanda Gefter visited Google's Cambridge, MA office to discuss her book "Trespassing on ...

Tom Banks (utilizing non-commutative geometry) has developed an observer-centric description of the holographic principle in de Sitter space NOT anti-de Sitter space, and so is applicable to a de Sitter (cosmic horizon) for OUR universe with dark energy.


Great news. What's the URL?


Ted Jacobson has shown whenever the holographic principle is in effect (as Banks has shown it to be in effect on a de Sitter horizon) Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric emerge as a thermal average (thermodynamic equation of state) that is only valid as a low energy limit near thermal equilibrium.

OK, when happens in the far-from-thermal equilibrium "dissipative structure" regime?

If the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry


fly in the ointment - no SS seen yet.

and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism are applied to Einstein's field equations (in the context of non-commutative geometry) we end up with something that looks like 11-dimensional super-gravity (which is part of M-theory) and includes the U(1), SU(2) and SU(3) interactions. As Amanda Gefter has argued in her book, every observer has their own holographic screen (cosmic horizon) that encodes all the bits of information for the observer's world.


<DavisFig1-1Hologram(1).jpg>

N.Panchapakesan

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Jun 1, 2017, 6:22:02 AM6/1/17
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Deekshith Khandavalli

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"Na Bandhosti, Na Mokshosti, Neha Naanaasti Kimchana, Chidaakaasosti Sarvadaa" - Neither are there knots nor untying, all that exists is consciousness!

N.Panchapakesan

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bob campbell

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Dear Panchu, Kashyap, Jim, and others,
 
Since the development of Quantum Mechanics a dichotomy has been introduced between the practice and interpretation of physics, there being many interpretations for the same results in contrived high energy experiments. The language of science no longer relates to truth but rather to the way it has come to be used. We nevertheless seek the truth in our understanding of both scientific and religious or spiritual pursuits. Truth is a timeless holistic value that transcends and subsumes the transience of physical events. Truth is not a physical thing.
 
About 49 years ago, at age 32, I had an awesome cosmic experience that shook me to my foundations. It came in response to an intensive quest into organization structure when I was a key management figure on the receiving end of a corporate takeover in Canada. Although raised Christian, I was not religious. It began with a spiritual vision of my own face followed by five days of continual organic ecstasy. I was in organic union with the whole biosphere. Then it turned around and I saw the other side. The transparent Suffering Face of Humanity appeared in the center of an energy interface of unlimited extent a few feet in front of me. I could read tragic events in the whole of human history behind the interface reaching back to the dawn of our organic evolution on the planet. It was fearsome in contrast to the preceding ecstasy.
 
When I rejected a message EVERYTHING vanished completely. I was One with All. It was a profoundly awesome experience of unity with the whole universe, with the whole of cosmic history. I was filled with cosmic awe, distinct from the previous days of organic bliss. I was merged in a boundless and timeless quantum energy field that spanned and integrated the whole of space and time. Then a series of orchestrated events demonstrated that this Holistic Void is the reciprocal of what we perceive as linear events in the physical universe. The physical universe is quantized into discrete elements that are projected as a very rapid succession of still atomic frames linked by light in a holographic cosmic movie in which we have a role to play. The linear succession of the movie frames are synchronously recalled from quantum elements of the Void that spans and integrates them as a whole. The Void is thus associated with Universal Mind and to the recall process for us all, to the extent to which we each have access. Atomic particles are also waves at the same time because the Void from which they are recalled is Timeless. The atomic frames in the movie close ranks. That is why Planck’s constant requires that light must transmit as a discontinuous series of pulses. The whole universe is discontinuous. There is no space-time continuum, which Einstein himself came to doubt late in life. There never was a big bang. A new cosmology necessarily emerges.  
 
After this demonstration between Form and Void, the Supreme Intelligence orchestrating it suddenly appeared directly in front of me in the Void. He demonstrated Himself to be the Supreme Source of ALL Being. There is NO Being apart from His Being. He is God. He is undeniable without denying one’s own being. I was facing total psychic annihilation as the ONLY option. He introduced Himself as the living manifestation of Universal Values, including love, compassion, mercy, justice and Universal Truth. He then proceeded to explicitly demonstrate how the whole cosmic order structurally works by intensely recalling visual imagery from the Void. The cosmic order is a hierarchically subsumed elaboration of His Being from which all creation derives. Without using a word of language He visually imprinted how this relates to the sciences, perhaps because of my science background.
 
It left me in a very bad way, holding on to sanity and life by a thread. I could not discuss it with anyone. I was alone with it for many years. I have never experimented with drugs. Cosmic experience transcends organic processes. Over a period of several months it stabilized as I read everything I could find on spiritual and philosophical traditions East and West. Strangely enough the only two descriptive accounts of a specific nature that I could find were in the Hindu tradition, and they were only similar to two brief sequences of what had happened to me. Words fail. More cosmic experiences explicitly orchestrated by God came to assist my efforts to understand over the next couple of decades. They all employed the Void.
 
It has taken most of a lifetime to fully assimilate it into ordinary experience. I am at peace with it. Following a rigorous review of the sciences I was able to re-interpret the factual empirical evidence of key elements of science in far more meaningful ways, using the intuitive methodology that was so intensely imprinted. Website articles are a beginning. I call the universal method of delineating the cosmic order simply “The System” because there is no other possible. It embraces all possible structural varieties of Inside to Outside, neither of which can be known to the exclusion of the other. Many articles on my website attest to its pragmatic value as a strict new right brain intuitive disciple of structure that is essential to understanding our place in the universe. It cannot be a left brain language based belief system since it must find direct confirmation in sensory experience in the public and private domains. It is offered freely in the hope that it may make its way into the academic community. It is desperately needed to expand the horizons of science at this point in our history. I feel I must be candid about the source of the work. I am not special.
 
A descriptive account of the first cosmic experience of God is available at http://www.cosmic-mindreach.com/Cosmic_Insight.html.
 
Best wishes to everyone,
Bob Campbell



From: "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu>
To: N.Panchapakesan <nargis...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 11:08 PM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] FW: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum Physics
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Eric Reyes

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Jun 1, 2017, 9:10:21 AM6/1/17
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To deny God's own existence by claiming oneself to be God himself is actually of utmost selfishness. It's no coincidence that you associate use of psychedelic drugs with "glimpses of mukti (liberation)". Whereas an ordinary person would only see that as creating delusional thoughts, not having anything to do with truth or reality. Psychedelic drug use and illusions of being God have nothing to do with science, religion, or mukti, liberation. Here in the U.S., and I'm sure elsewhere in the world, that just creates homeless people who have lost touch to greater or lesser degree with reality. This is not a good thing, it leads to confusion.

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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 1, 2017, 11:42:38 AM6/1/17
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On 01 Jun 2017, at 13:02, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote:

To deny God's own existence by claiming oneself to be God himself is actually of utmost selfishness. It's no coincidence that you associate use of psychedelic drugs with "glimpses of mukti (liberation)". Whereas an ordinary person would only see that as creating delusional thoughts, not having anything to do with truth or reality. Psychedelic drug use and illusions of being God have nothing to do with science, religion, or mukti, liberation. Here in the U.S., and I'm sure elsewhere in the world, that just creates homeless people who have lost touch to greater or lesser degree with reality. This is not a good thing, it leads to confusion.


I am not sure about this. Actually I do not believe that drugs exists. "drugs" are only medications which becomes dangerous once we prohibit them, because this comes to offering the markets to the criminals, and they rarely ask the identity card of the "patient", never offer precise posology, nor ask for a medical prescription. I have studies prohibition of drugs in detail. It has been right from the start a criminal technic to make a genuine free-market possible. prohibitionism is a non-sense, except for the drug and weapon dealers.

Could a drug/medication help in the spiritual domain? I think so, for many of them. Even in pure mathematics, it can help. It depends on the drug, and on the way it is used.

I joke often that to understand that the physical universe is a delusion, you can choose between logic and salvia divinorum, but it can take 30 years of work, with logic. It takes only four minutes with salvia, but most people are frightened by the experience, especially when they believe that the experience is only a delusion. salvia is a sort of logical hallucination, like the dream argument with a vengeance: as it is the hallucination that you at last wake up from all hallucinations (which includes your brain, body, even salvia and the whole physical reality).

Magic mushrooms can help also, but the advantage of salvia is that the experience last only 4 minutes (when smoked, and two or three hours when chewed, as the Mexican shamans usually do).

Drugs can help to perturb the brain enough to shaken our most solid prejudices. Of course we should not take for granted what we see, only what we understand, but that is true for all form of teaching.

Bruno


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John Jay Kineman

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Jun 1, 2017, 11:42:38 AM6/1/17
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I want to say that truth, as high as we can realize it, is the proper goal and method of every endeavor humans can engage in. This includes religion, science, auto mechanics, economics, politics, meditation, shopping, you name it. Therefore there is no restriction where religious people should not consider science, and scientists should not consider religion in their particular path. Ultimately all these practices must come into congruence, and where any one of them excludes any form of truth, it will suffer in achieving even its own goals. If I have not learned this, I think I have not learned anything.


John Kineman
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nargispanchu

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Jun 1, 2017, 11:42:39 AM6/1/17
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KASHYAP

                          I think the experience of Rishis and others who got it without any drugs must be far more lasting and superior. And there is no question of addiction. Science will have to tell us whether there is a non sensory world. There have been suggestions that E.M. radiation could also be mediating some of these phenomena.

Panchu 

Vasavada, Kashyap V

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Jun 1, 2017, 2:27:29 PM6/1/17
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Dear Jim,

I will consider your comments carefully later. On googling I found also two of your interesting papers. They are on my “to read” list. But here is my knee-jerk reaction!! Amanda Gefter, although a highly intelligent lady, is after all a journalist. How, journalists, without having fundamental knowledge of science, mess up explaining science, is well known. I read a blog about the book and watched her talk. I understand she talked to some top level physicists and wrote the book (surely well written) about her impressions. I do not want to diminish her achievement. But that should not replace trying to understand physics from physicists. Anyway I will keep open mind about Tom Bank’s theories. But his matrix theories as part of string theories are now several years old. I do have high respect for string theory as a unifying theory for all the interactions. I hope eventually it succeeds. But lately, it has run into lot of problems. For one thing, LHC did not discover any supersymmetry. There are some 10^500 possible solutions. Lot of people have criticized ST for being vague, with no predictions and lack of experimental support.  So one should not believe that string theory has solved all the problems of fundamental physics. It would be dangerous to use it as a guide to problems of consciousness. By the way, you might know that Lubos Motls was a student of Tom Banks and is a good string theorist. He has a pro string theory blog, although he publishes lot of blogs on politics and other social subjects. In fact he published my guest blog in 2014 (Hinduism for physicists)!  I visit his blog every day and ask questions often. You may want to visit his blog, motls.blogspot.com

Best Regards.

Kashyap

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jim kowall

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Dear Kashyap

Amanda Gefter may only be a science journalist, but she has a PhD in the philosophy of science from the University of London, and I find her understanding of modern physics to be at a very deep level. I have not read anyone who writes about the nature of ontology (what exists in reality) with greater authority or insight. The irony is "Nothing is ultimately real", not even the science that demonstrates through logical deductive reasoning that "Nothing is ultimately real". You've got to love the irony of that. In the immortal words of Morpheus in the Matrix, "It would seem that reality is not without a sense of humor". The irony of using the logical consistency of science to prove that "Nothing is ultimately real" is very much like the use of a paradox of self-reference in the Gödel incompleteness theorem to prove a logically consistent mathematical system can never prove its own logical consistency. If this doesn't make your head spin, I don't know what will.

By the way, the holographic principle is more general than String theory (or M-theory), and is based on more general arguments about the logical consistency of physics (how relativity theory can be unified with quantum theory without violating the second law of thermodynamics). Certainty 't Hooft is no fan of String theory, and the holographic principle has no greater advocate. I do not consider Tom Banks to be a String theorists. His arguments are all based on non-commutative geometry, which is much more general than String theory. String theory can only be applied in anti-de Sitter space, and cannot be applied to a de Sitter (cosmic) horizon that naturally arises in our universe with the expression of dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space), which is both confirmed by cosmic observations and is the basis for the inflationary theory of the big bang event. Non-commutative geometry does not suffer from this limitation. The de Sitter (cosmic) horizon is observer-dependent, with the observer located at the singularity of the big bang event. When non-commutative geometry is applied to the observer's cosmic horizon, the horizon becomes a holographic screen that encodes all the bits of information that define the configuration states of everything the observer can observe in its world. This conclusion is totally independent of any String theory arguments.

Jim

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con...@howgravityworks.org

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Jun 2, 2017, 7:22:05 AM6/2/17
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American Indians smoke peyote for a spiritual experience.
 
It is funny. Every now and then I get the whimsical notion that it may be I am god and being alone in the
existence everything and everyone in my existence is a creation of my mind for my own entertainment. 
 
The only problem is, that means I must be a masochist to have to endure what is more like torture in the
everything and everyone I have created in my environment....... LOL
So, that theory quickly falls apart.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] FW: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum
Physics
From: Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
Date: Thu, June 01, 2017 9:41 am
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com


On 01 Jun 2017, at 13:02, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote:

To deny God's own existence by claiming oneself to be God himself is actually of utmost selfishness. It's no coincidence that you associate use of psychedelic drugs with "glimpses of mukti (liberation)". Whereas an ordinary person would only see that as creating delusional thoughts, not having anything to do with truth or reality. Psychedelic drug use and illusions of being God have nothing to do with science, religion, or mukti, liberation. Here in the U.S., and I'm sure elsewhere in the world, that just creates homeless people who have lost touch to greater or lesser degree with reality. This is not a good thing, it leads to confusion.


I am not sure about this. Actually I do not believe that drugs exists. "drugs" are only medications which becomes dangerous once we prohibit them, because this comes to offering the markets to the criminals, and they rarely ask the identity card of the "patient", never offer precise posology, nor ask for a medical prescription. I have studies prohibition of drugs in detail. It has been right from the start a criminal technic to make a genuine free-market possible. prohibitionism is a non-sense, except for the drug and weapon dealers.

Could a drug/medication help in the spiritual domain? I think so, for many of them. Even in pure mathematics, it can help. It depends on the drug, and on the way it is used.

I joke often that to understand that the physical universe is a delusion, you can choose between logic and salvia divinorum, but it can take 30 years of work, with logic. It takes only four minutes with salvia, but most people are frightened by the experience, especially when they believe that the experience is only a delusion. salvia is a sort of logical hallucination, like the dream argument with a vengeance: as it is the hallucination that you at last wake up from all hallucinations (which includes your brain, body, even salvia and the whole physical reality).

Magic mushrooms can help also, but the advantage of salvia is that the experience last only 4 minutes (when smoked, and two or three hours when chewed, as the Mexican shamans usually do).

Drugs can help to perturb the brain enough to shaken our most solid prejudices. Of course we should not take for granted what we see, only what we understand, but that is true for all form of teaching.

Bruno


Regards, Eric Reyes


On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 9:04 AM, N.Panchapakesan
number of persons, all over the world, especially in the eastern part
> Subject: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum Physics
>
>
>
> Dear Kashyap
>
>
>
> I've copied an email you sent a few days ago inquiring into the connection
> of Vedanta to the nature of consciousness and quantum physics. I've also
> copied my reply to you and a reply to Vinod about the issue of ontology. I'd
> like to keep this conversation going due to your interest in Advaita, which
> is the only way to understand these connections.
>
>
>
> By the way, the holographic principle supersedes quantum theory since it is
> a way of unifying quantum theory with relativity theory. To my knowledge, it
> To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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Paul Werbos

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Jun 2, 2017, 7:23:22 AM6/2/17
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On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 12:05 PM, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
 One question. Do you think the experiences Rishis had in meditation are similar to those under psychedelic drugs even though most of them could not have taken these drugs? Your description of Mukti is much more general than Vedic concepts of liberation of soul etc. Well, quantum mechanics may not be a path to mukti! But it sounds like a bridge to non-sensory world. Though,  of course, the story is unfinished yet. Many people challenge even the existence of non-sensory world.

Two years ago, during a lunch break in Udaipur, my wife (whose higher doctorate came from the Institute of Physiologically Active Compounds of the Russian Academy of Sciences) showed me and a fellow traveler involved in yoga an article in Smithsonian Magazine discussing the controversies about the new NIH protocols allowing administration of psilocybin to humans in research. It seems that this new research (and the debates informed by it) represent our best direct scientific knowledge right now.

In reaction to that article, my immediate knee-jerk response was to discuss a book (I think a thin book called "Thought Forms") by Annie Besant, where she said that the human mind contains natural protections which block inputs which we are not yet mentally prepared to make positive use of. To become open to those inputs, she recommended that we work hard and develop the kind of inner discipline and clarity (vivid, coherent  clarity) which prepares us to be able to benefit in a more positive way form the inputs; then, she argued, the inputs would come naturally. Forcing the inputs in, unnaturally, through any use of drugs, would not only violate nature but do more harm than good to the mind. This fits very well with the details of an important paper by Greeley and McReady ("Are we a nation of mystics", a summary of a large NSF-funded study of deep values of Americans, reprinted in the book 
Consciousness edited by Goleman available for about $1 now via Amazon) describing how many, many PhD Americans do have an experience with another level of consciousness, but recoil because of inability to cope with it constructively. It also fits with what I heard long, long ago from an MIT professor and teacher of Daoism, who said that many of their exercises are intended to produce readiness, not enlightenment; "enlightenment is easy," he claimed, "but not the ability to survive it." There is a Gopal Krishna who wrote a book on what happened after he raised kundalini, which fits the picture as well. 

The folks around me expressed great skepticism when I discussed another odd book in my collection, The Seven Lives of Annie Besant, which described how she served as a kind of teacher and mentor to Ghandi. However, when this simple Gate1 tour moved on to Mumbai, we not only saw the street named in her honor in that city, but we saw several of her books in the treasured book collection of Ghandhi. I wanted to send you a link to the photograph my wife took of the books in his library, but it would take more time digging into my blog than I can afford this morning.

One serious faction described in the Smithsonian article argued that the new protocols may prevent the terrible risks which accompany normal use of mind-altering drugs. People like Andrew Weil would probably say that some of the native cultures of earth have evolved similar effective protocols -- but human cultures morph and res[pond to political forces and wishful thinking in a way which tends to mutate any such disciplines, and we see really huge damage all over the planet due to persistent misuse of drugs even by people who have reason to think they know better.

I was also amused by some aspects of the movie "Men Who Stare at Goats," which has some basis in things which really happened (described in the book).

For myself, I would prefer to avoid serious risks in something so important. 

Quantum physics and related areas of physics (like dark matter and study of emergent phenomena in general) can help with
the core problem of natural readiness as Greeley depicts it. It is unfortunate that I have not seen major follow-on to some of the open research questions posed in Greeley's paper.

Best of luck,

   Pual

   

Eric Reyes

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Jun 2, 2017, 8:50:50 AM6/2/17
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Dear Bruno,

     "Drugs helping to perturb the brain" is not going to give real knowledge or true. Just shifting from one illusion to another, that's all. And more than likely a more dangerous and volatile illusion than the ordinary ones without the drugs in the first place.

     In order to actually free oneself of "prejudices" or untruths, one simply needs to be presented with the truth, from one who knows it. And then one needs to consider it, and with good intelligence accept it. Drugs unfortunately tend to distort ones intelligence often to the extent that he loses his grasp on even ordinary common functioning, thus the hordes of the homeless so prevalent nowadays in most every nation.

     Spiritual domain is not accessed simply by altering the physical domain with drugs or chemicals, that won't work. Spiritual domain has its own existence, its own reality, higher reality.  It is not subject to the laws of nature here. Performing tricks on oneself here will not propel you there. That's just a trick of the mind.

 Regards, Eric Reyes




Eric Reyes

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Jun 2, 2017, 8:53:09 AM6/2/17
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I think that's mostly correct John. The wise man is not blind to any type of knowledge or phenomena. How would that be possible, higher knowledge includes the lower knowledge within it by its very nature, the whole will include the parts otherwise it's not whole. But that doesn't mean one thing is always equal to another, there are gradations, levels of consciousness and reality. Something higher, something lower. Something more inclusive, something less so. Knowing the differences​ is true wisdom I would think. Earlier I wrote a response to Bruno stating my thought that psychedelic drug use is not an actual gateway towards spirituality for instance, it's just a subtle mental transition from one illusory mental phenomena to another.

Regards, Eric Reyes



Bruno Marchal

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Jun 2, 2017, 11:43:33 AM6/2/17
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Dear Eric,


On 02 Jun 2017, at 14:27, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote:



     "Drugs helping to perturb the brain" is not going to give real knowledge or true. Just shifting from one illusion to another, that's all.

How do you know that. Even in Artificial Intelligence, some algorithm use making a "brain" abnormally "hot", to help getting better optimization result in grandient descent. 
The brain is a drug factory, and it happens that some plant build moelcules capable of imitating some moelcules of the brain, and that can lead to interesting experience a priori. 



And more than likely a more dangerous and volatile illusion than the ordinary ones without the drugs in the first place.

I have to say that I do not believe in "drug". They are medication which becomes dangerous once they are prohibited, which is normal, because it creates flourishing criminal markets, and criminal asks rarely the identity card of the patient, proposes rarely a precise posology to avoid addiction, foret mention of traceability, forget the possible warning on secondary effects, targets the kids at all corners.  The verifiable result is that when a drug is made illegal, its consumption rise enormously.
 Only the criminals benefits from making a medication/drug illegal. Prohibition was a criminal enterprise right at the start.

Then for the entheogen, which can help to wake the Inner God, many plants, which appears to be non toxic at all, like cannabis and salvia divinorum, can really help people to progress in metaphysics and on the spiritual path.





     In order to actually free oneself of "prejudices" or untruths, one simply needs to be presented with the truth, from one who knows it.

? That would be like an argument per authority.



And then one needs to consider it, and with good intelligence accept it.

Temporarily, as we cannot know any communicable truth. When we communicate, even in mathematics, we communicate only belief. The feeling of truth is private, and the truth per se remains non justifiable.




Drugs unfortunately tend to distort ones intelligence often to the extent that he loses his grasp on even ordinary common functioning, thus the hordes of the homeless so prevalent nowadays in most every nation.

Due in general to poverty, alcohol, and erzats of illegal drugs. Do you know that the best medication to quit heroin is ... heroin when prescribed by the doctor, and reimburse by social security. I know that theory since long, but it has been applied in a city nearby with quite encouraging success.



     Spiritual domain is not accessed simply by altering the physical domain with drugs or chemicals, that won't work.

I agree. It asks for more work than that, but I say only that it can help. Salvia divinorum is spectacular in that regard. (It is also an excellent medication to cure ... drug addiction, although the African plant Tabernanthe iboga is even more efficacious). 


Spiritual domain has its own existence, its own reality, higher reality.  It is not subject to the laws of nature here.

We agree on this, and in the theology of the (immaterial digital) machine/number, the laws of nature  are a verifiable secondary effect of our participation in the spiritual realm. 



Performing tricks on oneself here will not propel you there. That's just a trick of the mind.

The mountain has only one top but there are many paths, and some people can lost themselves, and this whatever path is used, even with the logic path. I would not generalize and condemn any method. When I explain the logic path, I am also very often condemned by people who claim that it is a non alley in the spiritual filed, but those are, I think prejudices. It runs both against the experience and the scientific literature. I agree that drugs is a terrible problem, but after analysis, the problem comes from prohibition, and not the products themselves. Drugs can be very good, when used legally with the right spirit. I have seen that all my life. 

Regards,

Bruno




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John Jay Kineman

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Jun 2, 2017, 11:43:33 AM6/2/17
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Hi Eric,  I would certainly agree with your comments about using drugs for spiritual experience, with only a slight exception that should not be over emphasized. But first in saying that no avenue should be excluded, I do not mean that every experience is going to be properly understood without proper methods.  Given that, I think the use of psycadelic drugs to open the mind to new kinds of experience is well established, but it is a violent opening with little methodological control. with proper guidance some meaningful experiences can apparently be had. I think it is best for a one time look at another side of reality, but then you need to develop more natural means to wxplore that experience in a way that will build capacity instead of tear it down. Sometimes a sudden and surprising look at the hidden possible can be very motivating to get there on one's own steam, through legitimate introspection, for which there is tremendous evidence of solid rewards.



John Kineman
(M India) +91 901-474-3733
Skype: john.kineman

Divine Commerce

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Jun 2, 2017, 2:27:59 PM6/2/17
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Hello Gentlemen,

I appreciate John's balanced view of psychadelics for spiritual growth and here's how I would describe this balance with quantum mechanics...

The "violent opening" of psychadelic-induced alternate states of consciousness can create corresponding violent openings in the human biofield as measured by GDV/EPI technology.  Hence, over time you will see the law of diminishing returns with advancement in consciousness if you don't practice creating the same alternate states of consciousness with your own mind via meditation.

In other words, you're more likely to experience the dark side of dark matter than the blissful state of enlightenment over time with psychadelic use if you're not incredibly grounded in your 3D experience.  Whether you want to go up or down the ladder of our multi dimensional holographic universe is your choice and your intention guides the process.  Without directed and focused intention you're turning particles of possibility into waves of existence by the whim of the free will of the collective conscious when psychadelics are used to radically expand consciousness.

In this way, Besant and Weil are both wrong and both right at the same time with a biofield twist...  Psychadelic use can create neural connections between parts of the brain that don't normally speak to each other therefore heightening the possibility of raising consciousness.  But over time it can destroy the protective biofield that keeps our consciousness intact.  The exception is native cultures that automatically repair their biofield through a strong connection to nature during psychadelic ceremonies as partially described in the science of "Earthing".

Perhaps using psychadelics in the "modern" world where the biofield is constantly destroyed through WiFi, laptops, and stress levels... Is just too much for most people to handle?  But when used with intention in a natural setting can be greatly beneficial.  

I would love to see more data on how psychadelics affect 1) The human biofield; 2) Zeta Particles on RBC's as a marker for electromagnetic strength of biofield.

Greeley's recoil effect could be explained by launching someone into a 6D experience then crashing back into the 3D gradient of existence without first achieving the consciousness that the lower dimensions are just as sacred and the higher dimensions and without either the former or the latter...  the Ladder of Multi Dimensional holographic existence would crumble.  Cleaning your kitchen can feel like excruciating tedium when you've experienced a state of heightened consciousness until you realize you're not washing dishes...  You're creating beauty in your home and world.  The distinction?  Integration of multi dimensional experience instead of experiencing dissociation from attachment to mentally existing in higher realms.  

By science or samadhi we shall unlock the secrets of the multiverse.  And maybe we're all one mushroom micro-dose away from realizing they are all the same thing...

Cheers,
Lisa M. Van Es

JACK SARFATTI

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Jun 2, 2017, 2:27:59 PM6/2/17
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This puts flesh on Brian Josephson's too-vague remarks on "agents" that I was never able to understand from his writing citing Karen Barad. Caveat: This chap is unaware of advanced destiny causes from the future in (Igor Novikov) globally self-consistent causal loops of timelike PQM key-less messaging entanglement. What he says below is important for sure, but is only one half of the story restricted to emergent retarded history causes.

"Erik Hoel, a 29-year-old theoretical neuroscientist and writer, quoted the passage in a recent essay in which he laid out his new mathematical explanation of how consciousness and agency arise. The existence of agents — beings with intentions and goal-oriented behavior — has long seemed profoundly at odds with the reductionist assumption that all behavior arises from mechanistic interactions between particles. Agency doesn’t exist among the atoms, and so reductionism suggests agents don’t exist at all: that Romeo’s desires and psychological states are not the real causes of his actions, but merely approximate the unknowably complicated causes and effects between the atoms in his brain and surroundings. ...

Using the mathematical language of information theory, Hoel and his collaborators claim to show that new causes — things that produce effects — can emerge at macroscopic scales. They say coarse-grained macroscopic states of a physical system (such as the psychological state of a brain) can have more causal power over the system’s future than a more detailed, fine-grained description of the system possibly could. Macroscopic states, such as desires or beliefs, “are not just shorthand for the real causes,” explained Simon DeDeo, an information theorist and cognitive scientist at Carnegie Mellon University and the Santa Fe Institute who is not involved in the work, “but it’s actually a description of the real causes, and a more fine-grained description would actually miss those causes.”

“To me, that seems like the right way to talk about it,” DeDeo said, “because we do want to attribute causal properties to higher-order events [and] things like mental states.”



New math shows how, contrary to conventional scientific wisdom, conscious beings and other macroscopic entities might have greater influence over the future than does the sum of their microscopic components. 

https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-theory-of-reality-as-more-than-the-sum-of-its-parts-20170601/

con...@howgravityworks.org

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Jun 3, 2017, 7:13:47 AM6/3/17
to Andreas Dress, on
I had to google Pedro Calderón de la Barca's "La vida es sueño".......
 
Apparently, it's a common scenario that has occurred to many others.
 
What I find odd is that everyone that follows or participates in this email chain has never considered,
or at least mentioned, the fact that maybe the group is somehow different than the ordinary average
man on the street that is not even aware of what is in these discussions.
 
I often look at those people and think; "It must be wonderful to be simple." 
 
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] FW: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum
Physics
From: Andreas Dress <and...@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de>
Date: Fri, June 02, 2017 4:43 pm
To: on <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>,
con...@howgravityworks.org
Cc: Andreas Dress <and...@mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de>

So, now we are getting close to

Pedro Calderón de la Barca's "La vida es sueño".

Andreas




On 02.06.2017, at 11:37, <con...@howgravityworks.org> wrote:

American Indians smoke peyote for a spiritual experience.

It is funny. Every now and then I get the whimsical notion that it may be I am god and being alone in the
existence everything and everyone in my existence is a creation of my mind for my own entertainment.

The only problem is, that means I must be a masochist to have to endure what is more like torture in the
everything and everyone I have created in my environment....... LOL
So, that theory quickly falls apart.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] FW: Advaita, Consciousness and Quantum
Physics
From: Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
Date: Thu, June 01, 2017 9:41 am
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com


On 01 Jun 2017, at 13:02, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote:

> To deny God's own existence by claiming oneself to be God himself is actually of utmost selfishness. It's no coincidence that you associate use of psychedelic drugs with "glimpses of mukti (liberation)". Whereas an ordinary person would only see that as creating delusional thoughts, not having anything to do with truth or reality. Psychedelic drug use and illusions of being God have nothing to do with science, religion, or mukti, liberation. Here in the U.S., and I'm sure elsewhere in the world, that just creates homeless people who have lost touch to greater or lesser degree with reality. This is not a good thing, it leads to confusion.


I am not sure about this. Actually I do not believe that drugs exists. "drugs" are only medications which becomes dangerous once we prohibit them, because this comes to offering the markets to the criminals, and they rarely ask the identity card of the "patient", never offer precise posology, nor ask for a medical prescription. I have studies prohibition of drugs in detail. It has been right from the start a criminal technic to make a genuine free-market possible. prohibitionism is a non-sense, except for the drug and weapon dealers.

Could a drug/medication help in the spiritual domain? I think so, for many of them. Even in pure mathematics, it can help. It depends on the drug, and on the way it is used.

I joke often that to understand that the physical universe is a delusion, you can choose between logic and salvia divinorum, but it can take 30 years of work, with logic. It takes only four minutes with salvia, but most people are frightened by the experience, especially when they believe that the experience is only a delusion. salvia is a sort of logical hallucination, like the dream argument with a vengeance: as it is the hallucination that you at last wake up from all hallucinations (which includes your brain, body, even salvia and the whole physical reality).

Magic mushrooms can help also, but the advantage of salvia is that the experience last only 4 minutes (when smoked, and two or three hours when chewed, as the Mexican shamans usually do).

Drugs can help to perturb the brain enough to shaken our most solid prejudices. Of course we should not take for granted what we see, only what we understand, but that is true for all form of teaching.

Bruno


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Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

Dear Lady, dear Sir,


Best wishes,

With many thanks in advance,

Herzlichst,

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Mit freundlichen Grüßen und bestem Dank im Voraus,

Andreas Dress
==================================
Prof. Dr. Andreas Dress
德乐思
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Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts (Richard Feynman).

Norm Silliman

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Jun 3, 2017, 5:11:55 PM6/3/17
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Bruno,

About salvia, below

On 6/1/2017 8:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> I am not sure about this. Actually I do not believe that drugs exists.
> "drugs" are only medications which becomes dangerous once we prohibit
> them, because this comes to offering the markets to the criminals, and
> they rarely ask the identity card of the "patient", never offer
> precise posology, nor ask for a medical prescription. I have studies
> prohibition of drugs in detail. It has been right from the start a
> criminal technic to make a genuine free-market possible.
> prohibitionism is a non-sense, except for the drug and weapon dealers.
>
> Could a drug/medication help in the spiritual domain? I think so, for
> many of them. Even in pure mathematics, it can help. It depends on the
> drug, and on the way it is used.
>
> I joke often that to understand that the physical universe is a
> delusion, you can choose between logic and salvia divinorum, but it
> can take 30 years of work, with logic. It takes only four minutes with
> salvia, but most people are frightened by the experience, especially
> when they believe that the experience is only a delusion. salvia is a
> sort of logical hallucination, like the dream argument with a
> vengeance: as it is the hallucination that you at last wake up from
> all hallucinations (which includes your brain, body, even salvia and
> the whole physical reality).
I bought some tincture of Salvia Divinorum a couple of years
ago and did not use it. The directions instructs
to dilute with hot water and take orally (beneath the tongue is
best). The literature claims that this effect is
gentler (than smoking) and longer lasting.

Now that my life style is calmer, I will refresh my memory of
what I had read in the past.

I have spent the last 20 years in the search of how physics
works (from a mechanical point of view), maybe
it is time for the spiritual domain.

Thanks for nudging me in looking into other choices.

Norm

Bruno Marchal

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Jun 4, 2017, 8:49:50 AM6/4/17
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Hi Jim,


On 01 Jun 2017, at 23:37, jim kowall wrote:

Dear Kashyap

Amanda Gefter may only be a science journalist, but she has a PhD in the philosophy of science from the University of London, and I find her understanding of modern physics to be at a very deep level. I have not read anyone who writes about the nature of ontology (what exists in reality) with greater authority or insight. The irony is "Nothing is ultimately real", not even the science that demonstrates through logical deductive reasoning that "Nothing is ultimately real". You've got to love the irony of that. In the immortal words of Morpheus in the Matrix, "It would seem that reality is not without a sense of humor". The irony of using the logical consistency of science to prove that "Nothing is ultimately real" is very much like the use of a paradox of self-reference in the Gödel incompleteness theorem to prove a logically consistent mathematical system can never prove its own logical consistency. If this doesn't make your head spin, I don't know what will.

It looks very nice. Of course, something has to be ultimately real, if only to be able to prove Gödel's theorem. In fact, the inability to prove something is a symptom of consistency, and the inability to prove our own consistency is a symptom of our intrinsic modesty when we are consistent. Eventually, Gödel's theorem does not impact on mathematics, only on metaphysics and (machine) religion. And, yes, it brings some sense of humor there. It makes the machine's illumination akin to the understanding of a joke, a cosmic/divine one, perhaps.

Bruno


<image001.jpg>

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On 02 Jun 2017, at 11:37, <con...@howgravityworks.org> <con...@howgravityworks.org> wrote:

American Indians smoke peyote for a spiritual experience.
 
It is funny. Every now and then I get the whimsical notion that it may be I am god and being alone in the
existence everything and everyone in my existence is a creation of my mind for my own entertainment. 

Of course, that would be solipsism.


 
The only problem is, that means I must be a masochist to have to endure what is more like torture in the
everything and everyone I have created in my environment....... LOL
So, that theory quickly falls apart.

Good. Solipsism is as much an absurdity that can be used in reductio ad absurdo. But note that many form of idealism, or more generally immaterialism do not need to be solipsistic. 

The first person is solipsist in the sense that it cannot have direct evidence that someone else is conscious, but that means that direct evidence is not enough to get a science, indeed, despite the interest of personal experience, they are no criteria of belief per se. The first person always lives a solipsistic condition, but does not need to defend a solipsistic doctrine. 

Bruno





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jim kowall

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Jun 4, 2017, 6:08:27 PM6/4/17
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Hi Bruno

Yes something is ultimately real, which is the undifferentiated (nondual) consciousness (awareness) of the void, which in all non-dual traditions (like the Tao, Zen and Advaita) is called nothingness. As Jed McKenna likes to say "have you got something against nothing?"

On the subject of solipsism, read Amanda Gefter's wonderful essay "Cosmic Solipsism"

Hi Jim,


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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 5, 2017, 11:58:08 AM6/5/17
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Hi Jim,


On 04 Jun 2017, at 21:57, jim kowall wrote:



Yes something is ultimately real, which is the undifferentiated (nondual) consciousness (awareness) of the void, which in all non-dual traditions (like the Tao, Zen and Advaita) is called nothingness. As Jed McKenna likes to say "have you got something against nothing?"

I have nothing against "Nothing physical". Indeed it is a consequence of Mechanism. But mechanism requires us to believe in number, addition and multiplication, at least. The rest can be explained in phenomenological term.

Now, the "undifferentiated (nondual) consciousness (awareness) of the void," is quite something, and all terms here should be defined from simpler notions. Are you OK it could be the arithmetical reality? It is an open problem for me if it makes sense to attribute awareness to it, but I tend to be open to that idea.

The problem with the notion of nothingness is that there is as much notion of nothing than there are notions of thing, and to define one notion of nothing requires some theory of some thing. For example, 0 is the number nothingness, the empty set { } is the set theoretical notion of emptiness, the quantum void is a very rich structure, already Turing universal (in classical physics you need at least three bodies, etc.).



On the subject of solipsism, read Amanda Gefter's wonderful essay "Cosmic Solipsism"

This is how I call quantum mechanics with  the "reduction of the wave packet" postulate.  It makes only our branch in the universal wave existing and eliminate all the others (and contradict the literal reading of the schroedinger equation).

Best,

Bruno



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Jun 5, 2017, 4:24:25 PM6/5/17
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Dear Bruno,

Sri Aurobindo (1872-1950) wrote a century back and his book The Life Divine draws from diverse sources, both Indian and Western. He conceives existence as a cyclic process of 1) Involution of highest consciousness as matter and then its 2) Evolution from matter to life and then mind etc. He postulates that Supermind is the next rung in this ladder of consciousness. He avoids prescribing any set method but advises that higher states of consciousness can be accessed by a volitional process of self-exceeding.

Thus, when you say about incompleteness of machines, it perhaps can be construed that it is part of the Evolutionary transition, as everything else. But my basic point is, if it is the question of consciousness, then why bring in numbers or machines instead of, say, poetry, which Sri Aurobindo himself preferred. This is not in any way to belittle your professional field of work, competence, or preference.

Wishing you all the best,

Tusar
June 6, 2017
http://selforum.blogspot.com/
http://savitriera.blogspot.com/


Hi Jim,


Hi Jim,



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jim kowall

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Hi Bruno

The concept of countable numbers (arithmetic) comes into existence like everything else in the world. There must be a source of arithmetic that is not itself reducible to arithmetic. That's how I've come to understand the significance of the Godel incompleteness theorems. The logical consistency of arithmetic can only arise from the source, not from arithmetic itself. I'd call the source of arithmetic the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. So how does this happen in practical (mechanistic) terms? When dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that only expands relative to the central point of view of an observer) is expended and the world is created (along the lines of the big bang event), a cosmic horizon arises (due to the limitation of the speed of light) that surrounds the observer and limits the observer's observations of things in space. If non-commutative geometry is applied to the horizon, bits of information are encoded in a binary code of 1's and 0's (essentially the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where n is specified in terms of the surface area A of the horizon as n=A/4(Planck area), which is the holographic principle). This is how arithmetic arises, essentially through a process of the quantization of the horizon into pixels about the size of a Planck area, where each pixel encodes a bit of information.


This creation of arithmetic cannot happen unless dark energy is expended, since that is how the observer's horizon arises. In the lingo, the horizon is observer-dependent. I'd call the expenditure of dark energy and the application of non-commutative geometry to the observer's horizon geometric mechanisms. Where do these geometric mechanisms come from? They somehow arise from the vacuum state, which we call the void. But it doesn't stop there. The focal point of consciousness of the observer at the central point of view of the horizon also has to arise from the void. That's why I'd say the void is undifferentiated consciousness, with the potential to both express dark energy (create a world) and differentiate itself into the perceiving consciousness of the observer that perceives that world. In some sense, this is an intentional creation.


An interesting point is what exactly does the undifferentiated consciousness of the void mean?


The undifferentiated consciousness of the void doesn't mean anything. As Jed McKenna likes to say "It Is". Neuroscience tells us all meaning is established in an energetic (emotional) context. The undifferentiated consciousness of the void is what exists before any energy is expended, before the world is created, and before any meaning is given to anything in the world. It is the primordial, timeless nature of existence. It is the ultimate nature of existence that creates the world through the expenditure of energy. It exists before energy is expended, before the course of time begins to flow, and before anything is created. Meaning can only be given to things in that world as energy is expended and that world is created and perceived. It is the source of all the creative energy and perceiving consciousness that allows a world to be created and perceived.


The holographic principle tells us that everything in that world is composed of bits of information encoded on a holographic screen (horizon), while the observer of that world is only a focal point of consciousness present at the central point of view (singularity) of that world. All the images of that world are projected from the screen to the observer and are animated over a sequence of screen outputs that occur in the flow of energy. The undifferentiated consciousness of the void is what exists before energy is expended and the screen and the observer come into existence.


There's nothing magical, mystical or supernatural about the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. It's natural but not personal. It's the true nature of what you are, which isn't a person. The person is just the central character in the projected and animated world you're perceiving. Everything is perceivable. The true nature of what you are isn't. It is the Source.

 

Jim

Hi Jim,


Hi Jim,



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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 7, 2017, 5:32:09 AM6/7/17
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Dear Tusar,


On 05 Jun 2017, at 20:46, Tusar Nath Mohapatra wrote:

Dear Bruno,

Sri Aurobindo (1872-1950) wrote a century back and his book The Life Divine draws from diverse sources, both Indian and Western. He conceives existence as a cyclic process of 1) Involution of highest consciousness as matter

Of course my appreciation of Sri Aurobindo does not entail that I, or the universal numbers, agree with all what he said.


and then its 2) Evolution from matter to life and then mind etc. He postulates that Supermind is the next rung in this ladder of consciousness. He avoids prescribing any set method but advises that higher states of consciousness can be accessed by a volitional process of self-exceeding.

OK. 


Thus, when you say about incompleteness of machines, it perhaps can be construed that it is part of the Evolutionary transition, as everything else.

Maybe. I see it as a step toward the contemplation era. Today we are in the "production era".


But my basic point is, if it is the question of consciousness, then why bring in numbers or machines instead of, say, poetry, which Sri Aurobindo himself preferred. This is not in any way to belittle your professional field of work, competence, or preference.

I am just searching truth, and, as scientist, I know that I cannot know the truth in any publicly communicable way, and can only suggest theories. Then, the mechanist theory has the advantage that it shed a lot of light on the mind-body problem. It does not mean it is true, but it means we can progress, and perhaps find that it is false, or get some explanation of reality. Up to now, Mechanism explains rather well consciousness *and* matter, unlike physicalism, which actually does not work at all, as I explain in my papers.

It is not so much that I would believe in number and machine. It is more like I loss the faith in the material reality. It simply does not make much sense to me, and when we assume Mechanism, I can explain why it cannot make sense, and this in a testable way.

Machines have soul, if we accept the analysis of soul by Plato and the neoplatonist, and they do have the "illusion of matter", if we accept Plotinus' theory of matter, and they can explain why it obeys to a quantum logic and the "many-world" aspect of nature. So there are strong evidence for Mechanism, and thus strong evidence for the "machine theology". Even if false, such a theology provides a sort of etalon useful to compare the other theologies.

Then mathematics is quite poetical all by itself. Sri Aurobindo could have appreciated it more, but mathematics is badly taught, and often misuse, or arbitrarily separated from the human sciences. 

In fact, modern mathematical logic is born from theological considerations, in the context of a fight between the Anglican unitarian and trinitarian(*). For the greek, a solid knowledge in mathematics was a requisite for theology. The original question was not about the existence of God, but on the existence of *primary* physical universe. The doubt was in between physicalism and mathematicalism or arithmeticalism, somehow. 

Kind regards,

Bruno
June 7, 2017

(*) this is well explained in this book:
Cohen J. Daniel, 2007. Equations from God, Pure Mathematics and Victorian Faith, John Hopkins Press, Baltimore.


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Paul Werbos

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Jun 7, 2017, 9:26:27 AM6/7/17
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Good morning, Bruno!

Every one of us has struggles we are called to face up to, for our spiritual evolution. This morning, it was really incredible for me to see two related messages next to each other in my inbox, one of them yours, especially:


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

Thus, when you say about incompleteness of machines, it perhaps can be construed that it is part of the Evolutionary transition, as everything else.

Maybe. I see it as a step toward the contemplation era. Today we are in the "production era".

(And I just now note our reference to a book by Daniel Cohen, and I wonder whether it might possibly be the same Daniel Cohen I knew at Princeton long ago)

The other being an article from the Wall Street Journal, from a network aligned with the outgoing (lingering?) science policy czars:

A Hardware Update for the Human Brain

From Silicon Valley startups to the U.S. Department of Defense, scientists and engineers are hard at work on a brain-computer interface that could turn us into programmable, debuggable machines


EMILY BORGHARD has a computer inside her skull, but you wouldn’t know it to look at her. A small bump behind her left ear, the only external evidence of her implant, is partially covered by a tuft of hair that’s still growing in from the last time she had the batteries changed.
Before Borghard received a brain implant, she was having as many as 400 “spikes” of seizure-like activity a day, along with multiple seizures. This unrelenting storm of abnormal neural activity turned her teenage years into a semiconscious nightmare.
===================================

The article strongly endorsed a vision of Brain Computer Interface explicitly intended to turn humans into well-controlled peripheral units of the Internet of Things, very similar to the helmets depicted in the most recent movie in the Star Wars sequence (or in the Winter Soldier movie which my son insisted I see).

One of the details which rattles me even more than it rattles you is the way they think of "spikes." It reminds me that all this heavy technological intervention is in fact based on deep ignorance of the actual neural code, as we see it in actual scientific analysis of 24khz data from higher centers of the brain:

See: Regular Cycles of Forward and Backward Signal Propagation in Prefrontal Cortex and in Consciousness, by Paul Werbos and Yeshua (J.J.) Davis, Front. Syst. Neurosci., 28 November 2016. (Note the clickable link to the open access paper.) It is "can do" manipulative intervention no more justified than the frontal lobotomies which once were popular.


The effect is not to develop deeper, higher bandwidth mundane communication, but rather to corrupt the reinforcement centers of the brain,
exactly like the opiate drugs which impair many people's spiritual growth along with their physical well-being, and convert people into puppets 
of greedy drug-dealers.

I do not see these stories as a call to go to extremes. On the one hand, we really are called to understand ourselves better, which includes the development of serious brain science and barin understanding as one part of it. Understanding the mathematics of intelligent systems also offers a kind of "reality testing" to our own higher intelligence, just as higher physics and pure mathematics do. But we are walking a difficult tightrope.
It is a difficult balance. These two inputs are only one example of contrasting, conflicting inputs spiralling out of balance, and it is not obvious how to stabilize the system while maintaining progress. 

But certainly the effort to being spiritual growth and science back into balance in human thinking is an important positive step.




Tusar Nath Mohapatra

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Jun 7, 2017, 12:53:09 PM6/7/17
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Dear Bruno,

Thanks for your considered reply. It appears that what I am asking for coincides with C.P. Snow's Two Cultures dichotomy. So, it's actually a question of competence and because of my modest education, average intelligence, and limited memory, I perhaps prefer to rely wholly upon Sri Aurobindo's theory instead of searching for truth all by myself.

That said, I will certainly not deprive myself of all the benefits that science and technology brings in course of time.

Wishing you all the best and success in your professional field,

Tusar (b.1955)
June 7, 2017
http://savitriera.blogspot.in/2016/12/there-is-no-unmixed-victory.html


Dear Tusar,


Hi Jim,



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jim kowall

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Jun 7, 2017, 6:10:52 PM6/7/17
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Dear Tusar

Mathematical concepts are perceivable. Nisargadatta Maharaj (in the Advaita tradition of Shankara) makes the point that the source of perceiving consciousness cannot itself be a perceivable object that perceiving consciousness can perceive. That would create a paradox of self-reference and lead to logical inconsistency. Logical consistency requires that the source of perceiving consciousness cannot itself be a perceivable thing or in any way be reducible to a set of perceivable things. Since the holographic principle tells us that the configuration states of all the perceivable things are reducible to bits of information encoded on the observer's holographic screen (horizon), while the perceiving consciousness of the observer can only be localized to the central point of view (singularity) of the horizon, this tells us the source of both the screen and the perceiving consciousness of the observer can only be identified as the void. Whatever the void is, it is not perceivable, but rather is the Source of perception. All we can ever say about the void is "It Exists".


Solipsism (in the sense of cosmic solipsism), which tells us the only thing you can ever know with certainty is that you exist, is a natural consequence of the holographic principle, as every observer has its own world defined on its own holographic screen that arises as dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that expands relative to the central point of view of the observer) is expended and an observer-dependent cosmic horizon arises. A consensual reality only becomes possible if the horizons of different observers overlap (in the sense of a Venn diagram) and share information, like the kind of information sharing we see in a network of screens (like the internet). The logical conclusion of solipsism is the ultimate nature of your individual existence (and by inference all of existence) is the void. Ultimately, Atman (your individual spirit or consciousness) is Brahman (the Supreme Spirit). The ultimate reunion of individual consciousness with the undivided consciousness of Brahman is called the path of return, and is the ultimate goal of all spiritual traditions.


Jim Kowall

Dear Tusar,


...

Bruno Marchal

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Jun 8, 2017, 5:03:54 AM6/8/17
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Norm,
Yes, it is very mild. It never worked for me, before I smoked it. Then
it works, but still very lightly.

Note that with salvia, the more you use it, the lesser will be the
dose needed to get the experience.



>
> Now that my life style is calmer, I will refresh my memory of
> what I had read in the past.
>
> I have spent the last 20 years in the search of how physics
> works (from a mechanical point of view), maybe
> it is time for the spiritual domain.

They are quite related, provably so in the frame of the mechanist
hypothesis. Note that mechanism entails that both matter and soul are
NOT mechanical. The machine already claims this, although, today, we
need to study a bit of mathematical logic (and greek-indian philosophy
to get the definition) to appreciate that fact.



>
> Thanks for nudging me in looking into other choices.

You are welcome. Still, I do not recommend using such products, but
wanting to be honest, I have to say that some plants helped me a lot,
medically. Salvia, like cannabis, can help for physical suffering,
psychological suffering and ... spiritual suffering. I would simply
not more be *here and now* without them.


Bruno


>
> Norm
>>
>> Magic mushrooms can help also, but the advantage of salvia is that
>> the experience last only 4 minutes (when smoked, and two or three
>> hours when chewed, as the Mexican shamans usually do).
>>
>> Drugs can help to perturb the brain enough to shaken our most solid
>> prejudices. Of course we should not take for granted what we see,
>> only what we understand, but that is true for all form of teaching.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>
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Bruno Marchal

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Hi Jim,

On 05 Jun 2017, at 23:37, jim kowall wrote:

Hi Bruno

The concept of countable numbers (arithmetic) comes into existence like everything else in the world.

Which world? The mathematical reality? The arithmetical reality? The physical reality? The spiritual reality?



There must be a source of arithmetic that is not itself reducible to arithmetic.

What can be shown is that it is impossible to derive the axioms of arithmetic (or "Turing equivalent") from anything less strong. That is why we have to assume them. The source of any theory of arithmetic can only be the arithmetical reality itself.




That's how I've come to understand the significance of the Godel incompleteness theorems.

It says that no theories of arithmetic can describe completely the arithmetical reality. It is very huge. The theories of arithmetic only scratch at the surface of the arithmetical reality. Assuming mechanism it means that the arithmetical reality is full of life and full of uncontrolable, unpredictible machines and gods. 

Gödel's incompleteness invites us to distinguish carefully an arithmetical theory and the arithmetical reality.



The logical consistency of arithmetic can only arise from the source, not from arithmetic itself.

I would say, the logical consistency of an arithmetical *theory* can only arise from the source, the arithmetical reality itself. 




I'd call the source of arithmetic the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. So how does this happen in practical (mechanistic) terms? When dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that only expands relative to the central point of view of an observer) is expended and the world is created (along the lines of the big bang event), a cosmic horizon arises (due to the limitation of the speed of light) that surrounds the observer and limits the observer's observations of things in space. If non-commutative geometry is applied to the horizon, bits of information are encoded in a binary code of 1's and 0's (essentially the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where n is specified in terms of the surface area A of the horizon as n=A/4(Planck area), which is the holographic principle). This is how arithmetic arises, essentially through a process of the quantization of the horizon into pixels about the size of a Planck area, where each pixel encodes a bit of information.

Non commutative geometry assumes most axioms of the arithmetical theories. Also, my goal, in part, is to explain what are "big bangs", "horizon", "space time". With mechanism it might be only emerging pattern on the numbers dreams (numbers provably dream once we assume mechanism). 
TAssuming mechanism, there are reason to think that the physical reality is an emerging first person plural dreams which emerge from the interference of infnitely many individual number dreams. We must deduce the physical laws from some theory of arithmetic.





This creation of arithmetic cannot happen unless dark energy is expended,

I think it is simpler to assume some arithmetical theory (with elementary truth like x + 0 = x, x + (y + 1) = (x + y) + 1, etc. and try to explain the mysterious complex dark energy from it, than the inverse. The very notion of energy subsumes the notion of numbers.



since that is how the observer's horizon arises. In the lingo, the horizon is observer-dependent. I'd call the expenditure of dark energy and the application of non-commutative geometry to the observer's horizon geometric mechanisms. Where do these geometric mechanisms come from? They somehow arise from the vacuum state, which we call the void. But it doesn't stop there. The focal point of consciousness of the observer at the central point of view of the horizon also has to arise from the void. That's why I'd say the void is undifferentiated consciousness, with the potential to both express dark energy (create a world) and differentiate itself into the perceiving consciousness of the observer that perceives that world. In some sense, this is an intentional creation.

This would need to negate Mechanism, and assume a physical reality. This is a respectable idea, but I am quite skeptical. It means in particular that you have to assume a physical reality which is richer than most arithmetical theories. It looks to me like explaining the simple (like natural numbers) by the complex (analysis,, trigonometry, waves, hamiltonian, quantum mystery, etc.). Number are taught in primary school. Dark energy needs General Relativity, which is taught only at university, using basically the while math course of school and university.





An interesting point is what exactly does the undifferentiated consciousness of the void mean?

I did not dare asking :)




The undifferentiated consciousness of the void doesn't mean anything. As Jed McKenna likes to say "It Is".

Hmm....  I find easier to say this for the natural number.




Neuroscience tells us all meaning is established in an energetic (emotional) context.

Neuroscience does not address meaning at all. I know only mathematical logic to address it. 
I am not sure energy/emotion is a convincing analogy. Emotion are first person experience, energy are measurable numbers.



The undifferentiated consciousness of the void is what exists before any energy is expended, before the world is created, and before any meaning is given to anything in the world. It is the primordial, timeless nature of existence.

When I tend to believe in Mechanism, I cease to believe in any physical reality other than the one we project from our many dreams.



It is the ultimate nature of existence that creates the world through the expenditure of energy. It exists before energy is expended, before the course of time begins to flow, and before anything is created. Meaning can only be given to things in that world as energy is expended and that world is created and perceived. It is the source of all the creative energy and perceiving consciousness that allows a world to be created and perceived.


I am very skeptical. Obviously our working hypotheses are quite different.





The holographic principle tells us that everything in that world is composed of bits of information encoded on a holographic screen (horizon), while the observer of that world is only a focal point of consciousness present at the central point of view (singularity) of that world. All the images of that world are projected from the screen to the observer and are animated over a sequence of screen outputs that occur in the flow of energy. The undifferentiated consciousness of the void is what exists before energy is expended and the screen and the observer come into existence.

There's nothing magical, mystical or supernatural about the undifferentiated consciousness of the void.

There is. Because if there is nothing magical, all the relevant approximation of it will exist in arithmetic, and then, to be real, the physical should be able to select the computations which does those approximations in arithmetic, but that cannot be by itself Turing emulable, and so you will need to bring special actual infinities in both nature and mind. 





It's natural but not personal. It's the true nature of what you are, which isn't a person.

How do you know that? 






The person is just the central character in the projected and animated world you're perceiving. Everything is perceivable. The true nature of what you are isn't. It is the Source.

OK. I can make sense of this. With mechanism too, we are the Source, but it is not physical at all. It is the arithmetical reality/truth, which is not a person per se, but can borrow persons to look at itself.

My theory is elementary arithmetic, mainly classical logic + the non-logical axioms:

0 ≠ (x + 1)
((x + 1) = (y + 1))  -> x = y
x = 0 v Ey(x = y + 1)
x + 0 = x
x + (y + 1) = (x + y) + 1
x * 0 = 0
x * (y + 1) = (x * y) + x

The dreams and the physical "delusion" are explained from only those axiom, and the sense is conveyed either by the mechanist assumption (the quick path), or by the logic of the number-self-reference (deducible from those axioms + the induction axiom, those richer theories can be proved to exist with the less rich axiom above (it is the point where the greeks have been refuted: a god who know less can emulate a God who knows more).

I am not a philosopher, so I rarely defend the truth of any formula or theory. I will just say that your approach might be the correct one, but I am using a quite different approach which relies on much less assumptions. Note that my theory is experimentally refutable, and so can be interesting to you. If refuted, there will be at least evidence to believe in primary energy and things like (dark or not) matter.

Bruno


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jim kowall

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Jun 8, 2017, 7:11:14 PM6/8/17
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Dear Bruno and Vinod

It's important that we clearly define our terms and examine our assumptions. If we do so, it's my opinion that our little disagreement can be easily resolved. The basic problem is the concept of infinity.


All mathematical concepts are perceivable things. My basic point is that the source of perceiving consciousness cannot be a perceivable thing that perceiving consciousness can perceive. That kind of assumption creates a paradox of self-reference and leads to logical inconsistency. Logical consistency requires the source of perceiving consciousness cannot be a perceivable thing or in any way be reducible to a set of perceivable things.


I find the mistake you've made is to assume that when I'm referring to the source of perceiving consciousness I'm referring to some finite thing, like the number zero. I'm not. The source of perceiving consciousness is not some finite thing, but rather is unlimited in the sense of infinity. Once we introduce the concept of infinity, all the conclusions that we can draw based on finite mathematical concepts become problematic, as theoretical physicists that work on quantum field theory have discovered to their chagrin. They have a big problem with the concept of infinity.


I'm saying the source of perceiving consciousness is not a finite thing and isn't perceivable, but it gives rise to all finite things that are perceivable. It creates all the finite perceivable things. Even an observable world is a finite perceivable thing. If we consider an observable world that is only composed of dark energy, the holographic principle tells us that the total number of bits of information that describe that world (the maximal entropy of that world) is given in terms of the surface area A of a cosmic horizon that surrounds the observer at the central point of view of that world as n=A/4(Planck area), where the surface area of the observer's cosmic horizon is specified in terms of the cosmological constant of that world.


The source of perceiving consciousness is not a finite perceivable thing, but it creates all the finite perceivable things, like an observable world. The source of perceiving consciousness can only be described as infinite, undifferentiated nothingness, which can be called the void or non-dual consciousness. Through its energetic expressions, the void creates all the finite perceivable things, like an observable world. It does this through the expression of dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that always expands relative to the central point of view of an observer) and the holographic encoding of a finite number of bits of information on a cosmic horizon (which can be understood in the sense of non-commutative geometry). If you want to say these creative expressions are constrained in terms of the axioms of arithmetic, I've no problem with that constraint, since this constraint only applies to the finite perceivable things and not to the source of perceiving consciousness, which is not a finite perceivable thing and by its nature is unlimited.


By the way, this problem with the concept of infinity explains why the quantum field theory description of the vacuum state is not trustworthy. This is the same problem with the quantum field theory description of inflationary cosmology. The holographic principle tells us we have to rely on a trustworthy theory of quantum gravity, not field theory. As Tom Banks has pointed out, all trustworthy theories of quantum gravity are observer-centric, since the observer's holographic screen always arises as an observer-dependent horizon, like a cosmic (de Sitter) horizon that arises as dark energy is expended (in the sense of a positive cosmological constant). Quantum field theory is at best an effective (thermal average) description of the world that is only valid as a low energy limit. Ted Jacobson has shown that Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric arise from the holographic principle as a thermal average (thermodynamic equation of state) description of the space-time geometry that is projected from the observer's holographic screen to the observer. We can then understand quantum field theory as arising from Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric (in the sense of 11-dimensional super-gravity) as extra components of the metric that arise with the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism of extra compactified dimensions of space. At best, quantum field theory can only describe a false vacuum state, not the true vacuum state (the void). A false vacuum state is always a meta-stable state characterized by a non-zero value of dark energy, which gives rise to the observer's cosmic horizon (holographic screen). As Leonard Susskind has pointed out, the true vacuum state (the void) has zero dark energy and so has no cosmic horizon. The true vacuum state has no holographic screen and no observer. The observer's world only arises with a cosmic horizon and is created as a false vacuum (meta-stable) state with a non-zero value of dark energy. The true vacuum state has a zero value of dark energy and has absolute stability. As Amanda Gefter has pointed out in her book, the true vacuum state can only be described as infinite, undifferentiated nothingness, which is the nature of non-dual consciousness.


Jim

Hi Jim,

 

Jim

Hi Jim,



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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 9, 2017, 6:08:46 AM6/9/17
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Dear Tusar,


On 07 Jun 2017, at 18:33, Tusar Nath Mohapatra wrote:

Thanks for your considered reply. It appears that what I am asking for coincides with C.P. Snow's Two Cultures dichotomy. So, it's actually a question of competence and because of my modest education, average intelligence, and limited memory, I perhaps prefer to rely wholly upon Sri Aurobindo's theory instead of searching for truth all by myself.

That said, I will certainly not deprive myself of all the benefits that science and technology brings in course of time.

Wishing you all the best and success in your professional field,


Thanks you Tusar. Sri Aurobindo is quite nice, and I am glad if you can relate with him, as it means you will implicitly related with the Universal Machine whose discourse is very close to Sri Aurobindo, at least if we accept some definition, as everything is debatable here (if this is not obvious).

Kind regards, I wish you success too,

Bruno



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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 9, 2017, 9:20:56 AM6/9/17
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Good morning Paul!

On 07 Jun 2017, at 14:16, Paul Werbos wrote:

Good morning, Bruno!

Every one of us has struggles we are called to face up to, for our spiritual evolution. This morning, it was really incredible for me to see two related messages next to each other in my inbox, one of them yours, especially:


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

Thus, when you say about incompleteness of machines, it perhaps can be construed that it is part of the Evolutionary transition, as everything else.

Maybe. I see it as a step toward the contemplation era. Today we are in the "production era".

(And I just now note our reference to a book by Daniel Cohen, and I wonder whether it might possibly be the same Daniel Cohen I knew at Princeton long ago)



I realized sometime ago that my two current books kept in my bag were written by two (different) Daniel Cohen.

Cohen J. Daniel, 2007. Equations from God, Pure Mathematics and Victorian Faith, John Hopkins Press, Baltimore.
Cohen E. Daniel, 1987. Computability and Logic, Ellis Horwood, Chichester.

That's two amazingly good books.

I wonder if one of them is the one you knew from Princeton.





The other being an article from the Wall Street Journal, from a network aligned with the outgoing (lingering?) science policy czars:

A Hardware Update for the Human Brain

From Silicon Valley startups to the U.S. Department of Defense, scientists and engineers are hard at work on a brain-computer interface that could turn us into programmable, debuggable machines


EMILY BORGHARD has a computer inside her skull, but you wouldn’t know it to look at her. A small bump behind her left ear, the only external evidence of her implant, is partially covered by a tuft of hair that’s still growing in from the last time she had the batteries changed.
Before Borghard received a brain implant, she was having as many as 400 “spikes” of seizure-like activity a day, along with multiple seizures. This unrelenting storm of abnormal neural activity turned her teenage years into a semiconscious nightmare.
===================================

The article strongly endorsed a vision of Brain Computer Interface explicitly intended to turn humans into well-controlled peripheral units of the Internet of Things, very similar to the helmets depicted in the most recent movie in the Star Wars sequence (or in the Winter Soldier movie which my son insisted I see).

One of the details which rattles me even more than it rattles you is the way they think of "spikes." It reminds me that all this heavy technological intervention is in fact based on deep ignorance of the actual neural code, as we see it in actual scientific analysis of 24khz data from higher centers of the brain:

See: Regular Cycles of Forward and Backward Signal Propagation in Prefrontal Cortex and in Consciousness, by Paul Werbos and Yeshua (J.J.) Davis, Front. Syst. Neurosci., 28 November 2016. (Note the clickable link to the open access paper.) It is "can do" manipulative intervention no more justified than the frontal lobotomies which once were popular.



Especially that this ignores natural treatments, as evidence grow that some plant (cannabis) are very helpful for epilepsy treatment.
In my country, its seems that 8 young people have been euthanized for reason of incurable depression, which is shocking because here too, some plants seem to provide a possible cure (salvia divinorum). When medication are illegal, we live in a sad world.




The effect is not to develop deeper, higher bandwidth mundane communication, but rather to corrupt the reinforcement centers of the brain,
exactly like the opiate drugs which impair many people's spiritual growth along with their physical well-being, and convert people into puppets 
of greedy drug-dealers.


I agree. Note that opioid addiction is mainly due to the non-opioid medication having been made illegal.




I do not see these stories as a call to go to extremes. On the one hand, we really are called to understand ourselves better, which includes the development of serious brain science and barin understanding as one part of it. Understanding the mathematics of intelligent systems also offers a kind of "reality testing" to our own higher intelligence, just as higher physics and pure mathematics do. But we are walking a difficult tightrope.

No doubt!


It is a difficult balance. These two inputs are only one example of contrasting, conflicting inputs spiralling out of balance, and it is not obvious how to stabilize the system while maintaining progress. 

But certainly the effort to being spiritual growth and science back into balance in human thinking is an important positive step.

I agree. Now, the pioneer of "terrestrial immorality" will have an hard life. They will try everything, and it will take time before we get the level right, not to mention the philosophy and ethics. Then with some theories, like Mechanism, it is only Samsara complacency, or Nirvana procrastination. Most people prefer comfortable lies to disturbing truth. I do not judge. Yet personally, I fear more the lies than the search of the truth.

Best,

Bruno Marchal










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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 9, 2017, 1:43:37 PM6/9/17
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Dear Jim and Vinod,


On 08 Jun 2017, at 22:47, jim kowall wrote:

Dear Bruno and Vinod

It's important that we clearly define our terms and examine our assumptions.

I can't agree more, but in the spiritual field this can be a difficult task. 

If I like mechanism, it is because it simplifies enormously that task. Of course, that is not an argument that it is true.

My spiritual assumption is that there is no infinity, nor uncomputability at play in the relevant part of the functioning of my body. 
Later, this will entail, paradoxically at first sight, that my body is not an entirely computable object. 
Such non computability will be relevant for my consciousness preservation, though.



If we do so, it's my opinion that our little disagreement can be easily resolved. The basic problem is the concept of infinity.

All mathematical concepts are perceivable things.

I would not express myself in this way, because I have the habit of using "perception" for physical object. But that might not be important.



My basic point is that the source of perceiving consciousness cannot be a perceivable thing

I agree very much with this. When a machine introspect itself (in some computer science sense), it discovers its soul, and that its soul is not anything describable in third person term, except in an indirect way, + assuming mechanism and its unprovability, at a meta-level.

I am aware I would need to explain more. It relies deeply on arithmetical self-reference.


that perceiving consciousness can perceive. That kind of assumption creates a paradox of self-reference and leads to logical inconsistency. Logical consistency requires the source of perceiving consciousness cannot be a perceivable thing or in any way be reducible to a set of perceivable things.


I agree. It is not even reducible to a set of (3p) conceivable things.

From now on, I will abbreviate "first person" and "third person" by p and 3p.  At some point, I will explain also a notion of first person plural (1pp). 
In fact, with Mechanism, eventually the physical reality will appear to be first person plural.




I find the mistake you've made is to assume that when I'm referring to the source of perceiving consciousness I'm referring to some finite thing, like the number zero. I'm not. The source of perceiving consciousness is not some finite thing,

OK.


but rather is unlimited in the sense of infinity.

With Mechanism, the situation is even worst. Not only "it" has unlimited features, it is out of the 3p things, relatively to each machine. Mathematicians, after Cantor, have developed a rather reasonable 3p description of the constructive and non constructive infinities, but the source of "perceiving consciousness" is beyond the 3p-describable. 



Once we introduce the concept of infinity, all the conclusions that we can draw based on finite mathematical concepts become problematic, as theoretical physicists that work on quantum field theory have discovered to their chagrin. They have a big problem with the concept of infinity.

Hmm... I don't really agree. The problem are in quantum field theory, not in the infinities. Actually the problem is not even really in quantum field theory, but in the inappropriate metaphysics that the physicists imposes, more or less consciously, on their interpretation of what represents a quantum field.




I'm saying the source of perceiving consciousness is not a finite thing and isn't perceivable, but it gives rise to all finite things that are perceivable.

OK. The smaller infinity. The infinity of all finite things.



It creates all the finite perceivable things.

OK. (in the sense that we will have to explain this, and make clear what are perception and conception. 



Even an observable world is a finite perceivable thing.

I would prefer to say:   IF there is a world/computations/history, THEN finite things can only perceive a finite portion of it. They might still conceive, or guess, or intuit an infinite 3p thing or 1p person behind.  With mechanism, this is what we are doing right now, for example.






If we consider an observable world that is only composed of dark energy, the holographic principle tells us that the total number of bits of information that describe that world (the maximal entropy of that world) is given in terms of the surface area A of a cosmic horizon that surrounds the observer at the central point of view of that world as n=A/4(Planck area), where the surface area of the observer's cosmic horizon is specified in terms of the cosmological constant of that world.

The source of perceiving consciousness is not a finite perceivable thing, but it creates all the finite perceivable things, like an observable world. The source of perceiving consciousness can only be described as infinite, undifferentiated nothingness, which can be called the void or non-dual consciousness. Through its energetic expressions, the void creates all the finite perceivable things, like an observable world. It does this through the expression of dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space that always expands relative to the central point of view of an observer) and the holographic encoding of a finite number of bits of information on a cosmic horizon (which can be understood in the sense of non-commutative geometry). If you want to say these creative expressions are constrained in terms of the axioms of arithmetic, I've no problem with that constraint, since this constraint only applies to the finite perceivable things and not to the source of perceiving consciousness, which is not a finite perceivable thing and by its nature is unlimited.

By the way, this problem with the concept of infinity explains why the quantum field theory description of the vacuum state is not trustworthy. This is the same problem with the quantum field theory description of inflationary cosmology. The holographic principle tells us we have to rely on a trustworthy theory of quantum gravity, not field theory. As Tom Banks has pointed out, all trustworthy theories of quantum gravity are observer-centric, since the observer's holographic screen always arises as an observer-dependent horizon, like a cosmic (de Sitter) horizon that arises as dark energy is expended (in the sense of a positive cosmological constant). Quantum field theory is at best an effective (thermal average) description of the world that is only valid as a low energy limit. Ted Jacobson has shown that Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric arise from the holographic principle as a thermal average (thermodynamic equation of state) description of the space-time geometry that is projected from the observer's holographic screen to the observer. We can then understand quantum field theory as arising from Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric (in the sense of 11-dimensional super-gravity) as extra components of the metric that arise with the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism of extra compactified dimensions of space. At best, quantum field theory can only describe a false vacuum state, not the true vacuum state (the void). A false vacuum state is always a meta-stable state characterized by a non-zero value of dark energy, which gives rise to the observer's cosmic horizon (holographic screen). As Leonard Susskind has pointed out, the true vacuum state (the void) has zero dark energy and so has no cosmic horizon. The true vacuum state has no holographic screen and no observer. The observer's world only arises with a cosmic horizon and is created as a false vacuum (meta-stable) state with a non-zero value of dark energy. The true vacuum state has a zero value of dark energy and has absolute stability. As Amanda Gefter has pointed out in her book, the true vacuum state can only be described as infinite, undifferentiated nothingness, which is the nature of non-dual consciousness.


I prefer not to assume a physical universe. Here I guess we differ a lot. What you say might have some relevance to solve the matter appearance problem, but from my approach it is a bit premature.  The quantum vacuum assumes much more than simple arithmetic.

With Mechanism, physics is in our head, and in the head of all (rich) universal machine. We have to derive physics from the mathematics of arithmetical self-reference. 
Using anything inferred from observation would be a sort cheating.  Of course that can help, and the comparison with nature remains the ultimate test. In that sense, I am still an empiricist. But I want the theory to be meaningful with respect to all the points of view, especially the 1p view.
I like Mechanism, because it provides an important role to the 1p, instead of eliminating it like many materialists, at least in the Western world, or gluing it dualistically in some non intelligible way.

Bruno





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jim kowall

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Jun 9, 2017, 5:55:04 PM6/9/17
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Hi Bruno

Thank you for your detailed reply. There are probably many ways in which we could continue this discussion, but it's probably best if we agree to disagree. I would point out that ultimate reality can ultimately be directly experienced, as in becoming a Buddha and awakening from the dream. When one awakens from the dream, everything in the dream disappears and only the true nature of one's underlying reality remains. Maybe we'll have to wait for such an awakening before we can really know. The irony of course is that when one awakens, one knows nothing. In a peculiar way, one has to become willing to die. To know nothing, one has to become willing to do nothing and to be nothing. In the Tao and Zen this is called becoming desireless. If you'd like to read about what reaching this ultimate state of existence is like, I'd recommend Nisargadatta Maharaj (I Am That) and Jed McKenna (Spiritual Enlightenment Trilogy). Until we finally reach the end and directly experience our own awakening from the dream, all we can do is engage in what appears to be an endless debate about the true nature of reality.

Best wishes

Jim

...

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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 11, 2017, 8:54:19 AM6/11/17
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Hi Jim,


On 09 Jun 2017, at 22:47, jim kowall wrote:

Hi Bruno

Thank you for your detailed reply. There are probably many ways in which we could continue this discussion, but it's probably best if we agree to disagree.

We have different theories, indeed. But my point is that we can do some test.




I would point out that ultimate reality can ultimately be directly experienced, as in becoming a Buddha and awakening from the dream.

OK. I think we can do that in our life time. And I think that some plants can speed the process, at least fr people being well prepared. 




When one awakens from the dream, everything in the dream disappears and only the true nature of one's underlying reality remains.

Yes, but we can never be sure, we can awaken *in* dreams. It called false awakenings. There might be, and plausibly be, an ultime awakening, but we can never be 100% sure, at least in frame of mechanism.



Maybe we'll have to wait for such an awakening before we can really know. The irony of course is that when one awakens, one knows nothing. In a peculiar way, one has to become willing to die.

Yes. But we might be able to die, and to come back. That is what happened with Salvia divinorum. It is an incognito suicide. Unlike OBE and NDE , you don't come back, but you let a different "spirit" borrowing your previous dream and resume it. The salvia OBE is quite radical. We go out of the body, but can go out of the entire physical reality. It looks like a multi-multi-...multiverse. It is currently unclear if it confirms this refutes Mechanism in cognitive science. With mechanism, it seems impossible to die, but some "jump" are possible.



To know nothing, one has to become willing to do nothing and to be nothing.

Almost nothing, I would say. OK. The tail of the cow will not go through the window!



In the Tao and Zen this is called becoming desireless. If you'd like to read about what reaching this ultimate state of existence is like, I'd recommend Nisargadatta Maharaj (I Am That) and Jed McKenna (Spiritual Enlightenment Trilogy). Until we finally reach the end and directly experience our own awakening from the dream, all we can do is engage in what appears to be an endless debate about the true nature of reality.


We can also make theories, and test them, in the 3p, or 1p plural, way, or in the 1p singular way. With this method, we never know when we are true, but we can know when our theories are implausible. Although 3/8 of the machine theology is not 3p testable, 5/8 is testable, and can serve to test indirectly those 3/8.
I will say more when my scheduling is Iess tight, and when there is a  good opportunity to describe the 8 hypostases of the "theology of numbers". The problem is that it requires some familiarity with theoretical computer science/mathematical logic. I am happy that people seems open minded toward those domains.

Best regards,

Bruno



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jim kowall

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Jun 12, 2017, 6:10:22 PM6/12/17
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Dear Bruno and Vinod

I agree with Vinod that the experience of the ultimate nothingness (awakening from the dream; not awakening within the dream like lucid dreaming) is beyond our mental capacity to understand in conceptual terms. Joseph Campbell liked to say "No words have ever soiled it". Although it cannot be conceptualized, it does seem that when it is directly experienced there is certainty that it is the ultimate reality. In the Matrix (which borrows heavily from theology) when Neo returns to the ultimate state of reality (the source) the machines say "It is done". The Matrix also quotes the book of Revelation by calling it "The Beginning and the End", implying the primordial (timeless) nature of existence (the I Am state) from which all temporal states of existence originate and to which they must return. Nisargadatta Maharaj says "Before all beginnings, after all endings, I Am". Jed McKenna says the same thing, and as a shorthand designation calls it "Done". So although we cannot conceptualize it in mental terms, it seems that when you (more specifically your individual consciousness) directly experiences it, you know with absolute certainty that you are in the ultimate state or the underlying reality (ground of being) that remains when everything (including the space, time, matter and energy of a world) disappears. The best description I've ever heard is the concept of dissolution (as in Nirvana, or blowing out the flame of life). When everything disappears and only the underlying reality remains, one's individual consciousness dissolves back into the infinite nothingness of undifferentiated consciousness like a drop of water dissolves into the ocean. In the Tao this is referred to as the light of consciousness returning to the darkness. "Ever desireless one can see the mystery. Ever desiring one can see the manifestations. These two spring from the same source. This appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery." The Bhagavad-Gita says much the same thing about the ultimate I Am state. "The unreal has no being. The real never ceases to be."

Jim

Hi Jim,


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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 14, 2017, 7:59:41 AM6/14/17
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On 12 Jun 2017, at 23:07, jim kowall wrote:

Dear Bruno and Vinod

I agree with Vinod that the experience of the ultimate nothingness (awakening from the dream; not awakening within the dream like lucid dreaming) is beyond our mental capacity to understand in conceptual terms.

Me too. Admitting reasonable definition, all sound machines believe this.



Joseph Campbell liked to say "No words have ever soiled it".


OK. Even no images, nor any 3p description, nor even the infinite one.



Although it cannot be conceptualized, it does seem that when it is directly experienced there is certainty that it is the ultimate reality.


That is true, but certainty can be false, especially when invoked in an argument. There might be an ultimate awakening, but in such a case the machine will remain silent.




In the Matrix (which borrows heavily from theology) when Neo returns to the ultimate state of reality (the source) the machines say "It is done". The Matrix also quotes the book of Revelation by calling it "The Beginning and the End", implying the primordial (timeless) nature of existence (the I Am state) from which all temporal states of existence originate and to which they must return. Nisargadatta Maharaj says "Before all beginnings, after all endings, I Am".

Like the arithmetical truth, somehow.



Jed McKenna says the same thing, and as a shorthand designation calls it "Done". So although we cannot conceptualize it in mental terms, it seems that when you (more specifically your individual consciousness) directly experiences it, you know with absolute certainty that you are in the ultimate state or the underlying reality (ground of being) that remains when everything (including the space, time, matter and energy of a world) disappears.

OK. Which already happens with 3p logic. 



The best description I've ever heard is the concept of dissolution (as in Nirvana, or blowing out the flame of life). When everything disappears and only the underlying reality remains, one's individual consciousness dissolves back into the infinite nothingness of undifferentiated consciousness like a drop of water dissolves into the ocean.

That image is a bit too much physicalist, and there is a sense that you become the ocean. The undifferentiated consciousness never dissolve, and remains a person, of course an immaterial one.





In the Tao this is referred to as the light of consciousness returning to the darkness. "Ever desireless one can see the mystery. Ever desiring one can see the manifestations. These two spring from the same source. This appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery." The Bhagavad-Gita says much the same thing about the ultimate I Am state. "The unreal has no being. The real never ceases to be."

OK.

Bruno Marchal




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jim kowall

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Jun 14, 2017, 4:56:54 PM6/14/17
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Hi Bruno

Joseph Campbell was quoting the Upanishads "Beyond names and forms. No tongue has soiled it, no word has reached it".

Jed McKenna defines "Done" as "No Further". This is the part we can't conceptualize. When you reach "Infinity" there is "no further". How can you go beyond infinity? The concept of "dissolution into infinity" is the best I've got. :)

Jim


Jim

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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 15, 2017, 7:32:18 AM6/15/17
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Hi Jim,

On 14 Jun 2017, at 21:07, jim kowall wrote:

Hi Bruno

Joseph Campbell was quoting the Upanishads "Beyond names and forms. No tongue has soiled it, no word has reached it".

OK.


Jed McKenna defines "Done" as "No Further". This is the part we can't conceptualize. When you reach "Infinity" there is "no further". How can you go beyond infinity? The concept of "dissolution into infinity" is the best I've got. :)

I like the image, but since Cantor, we know that there are many infinities. My point was more a critics of "dissolution", but don't mind too much, all words are ineffective at that stage.

Bruno



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