Dear Vinod, Colin and Tusar,
Thanks for encouragement to the idea that fundamental particles may have qualia at some rudimentary level. May be I went too far in the other direction in saying that it is “wild conjecture”. Thanks Tusar for pointing out “theoretical sanction” of Sri Aurobindo to such ideas. Hopefully science will be able to incorporate such ideas in not too distant future.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
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主题: [Sadhu Sanga] Vinod, Colin and Tushar, Physics and qualia
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Dear all,I think that the idea that the elementary particle has some qualia seems to be normal to me. But only when these qualia's can be combined into some integrated ones then they can be effectively seen as some consciousness. Otherwise, they are still just nothing.On the other hand, I agree with William James that qualia cannot be combined so the conscious subject should be inseparable. I found his argument is very convincing. Actually,at least for me, no one has really refuted James' argument. They (e.g. D. Chalmers) think the qualia must be combinable only because if the conscious subject is something inseparable like elementary particle, there seems to be no way to stabilize it in our brain for such a long time and no way for the subject to interact with environment to gain such vivid experiences about the external work.What if Nature indeed does find some way to stabilize some elementary particle with huge inner freedom in our brain and use the phenomenal properties this particle to produce conscious experiences that we experience everyday?Actually, in one of my 2016 published article in Neuroquantology, I did find a simple physical principle that can be used to act as this role. If you are interested in my work please let me know and I can send you a copy. But I guess no one here will agree with me and will be interested about my work.Cheers!Dr Jianfeng Li
Department of Macromolecular Science
Fudan University, Shanghai 200433
CHINA
Phone: 86-21-65642125
Email: li...@fudan.edu.cn
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Dear Dr. Li,
I have not read William James’ account on qualia, but it seems to me inseparability of qualia does not exclude the possibility of new qualia to emerge from the juxtaposition of several. To whit, juxtaposing the colors blue and yellow create the experience of the color green. Although, in a kind of hysteresis, once the color green arises, it cannot be separated in awareness into blue and yellow—perhaps that is an artifact of the visual sense, as the auditory sense can hear the unique sound created by juxtaposing several frequencies, as well as it can isolate the separate frequencies.
But perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning?
Best wishes,
Siegfried
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/2b850bfe.35187.15ce4f08c87.Coremail.lijf%40fudan.edu.cn.
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发件人:"Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu>
发送时间:2017-06-27 20:49:09 (星期二)
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主题: RE: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Vinod, Colin and Tushar, Physics and qualia
Dear Li,
Yes. I would be interested in an electronic copy of your work. Please send it either to this website or vasa...@iupui.edu. Thanks.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: li...@fudan.edu.cn [mailto:li...@fudan.edu.cn]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 12:57 AM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Vinod, Colin and Tushar, Physics and qualia
I agree with you on this. Actually, in my understanding or in my theory, qualia can be seen as a conscious experience flash for a consciousness. If a subject can have a series of experience flashes or qualias that can further form time-flowing experience then it should be seen as a consciousness.
Further, in my theory, qualia or conscious experience is defined as a paring of two quantum states which cannot be reduced to structures. Note that it is not like the physical property that can be expressed as relations between two quantum states which are obviously structural.
Dr Jianfeng Li
Assoc Prof
Department of Macromolecular Science
Fudan University, Shanghai 200433
CHINA
Phone: 86-21-65642125
Email: li...@fudan.edu.cn
-----原始邮件-----
发件人:"VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL" <vinodse...@gmail.com>
发送时间:2017-06-27 11:59:57 (星期二)
收件人: li...@fudan.edu.cn, "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu>, "C. S. Morrison" <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
抄送:
主题: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Vinod, Colin and Tushar, Physics and qualiaQualia are one time shut on or shut off events while consciousness is a lifelong perpetuating, unchanging, immutable flow ( of something) or some ontological existence. In view of this, qualia can't aggregate to consciousness. On the contrary, behind every qualia, there does exist consciousness. All qualia arise due to the interface of the consciousness and stimuli signals from environment or memory. Consciousness can exist even without qualia but not the converse.
Vinod Sehgal
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 1:34 AM, Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dr. Li,
Your work sounds interesting.
Can you send me the paper?
Thanks in advance.
Sung
On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 11:06 AM, <li...@fudan.edu.cn> wrote:
Dear all,
I think that the idea that the elementary particle has some qualia seems to be normal to me. But only when these qualia's can be combined into some integrated ones then they can be effectively seen as some consciousness. Otherwise, they are still just nothing.
On the other hand, I agree with William James that qualia cannot be combined so the conscious subject should be inseparable. I found his argument is very convincing. Actually,at least for me, no one has really refuted James' argument. They (e.g. D. Chalmers) think the qualia must be combinable only because if the conscious subject is something inseparable like elementary particle, there seems to be no way to stabilize it in our brain for such a long time and no way for the subject to interact with environment to gain such vivid experiences about the external work.
What if Nature indeed does find some way to stabilize some elementary particle with huge inner freedom in our brain and use the phenomenal properties this particle to produce conscious experiences that we experience everyday?
Actually, in one of my 2016 published article in Neuroquantology, I did find a simple physical principle that can be used to act as this role. If you are interested in my work please let me know and I can send you a copy. But I guess no one here will agree with me and will be interested about my work.
Cheers!
Dr Jianfeng Li
Department of Macromolecular Science
Fudan University, Shanghai 200433
CHINA
Phone: 86-21-65642125
Email: li...@fudan.edu.cn
-----原始邮件-----
发件人:"Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu>
发送时间:2017-06-26 20:18:30 (星期一)
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Dear Li,
Yes. I would be interested in an electronic copy of your work. Please send it either to this website or vasa...@iupui.edu. Thanks.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: li...@fudan.edu.cn [mailto:li...@fudan.edu.cn]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 12:57 AM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Vinod, Colin and Tushar, Physics and qualia
I agree with you on this. Actually, in my understanding or in my theory, qualia can be seen as a conscious experience flash for a consciousness. If a subject can have a series of experience flashes or qualias that can further form time-flowing experience then
it should be seen as a consciousness.
Further, in my theory, qualia or conscious experience is defined as a paring of two quantum states which cannot be reduced to structures. Note that it is not like the physical property that can be expressed as relations between two quantum states which are obviously structural.
Dr Jianfeng Li
Assoc Prof
Department of Macromolecular Science
Fudan University, Shanghai 200433
CHINA
Phone: 86-21-65642125
Email: li...@fudan.edu.cn
-----原始邮件-----
发件人:"VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL" <vinodse...@gmail.com>
发送时间:2017-06-27 11:59:57 (星期二)
收件人: li...@fudan.edu.cn, "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu>, "C. S. Morrison" <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
抄送:
主题: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Vinod, Colin and Tushar, Physics and qualia
Qualia are one time shut on or shut off events while consciousness is a lifelong perpetuating, unchanging, immutable flow ( of something) or some ontological existence. In view of this, qualia can't aggregate to consciousness. On the contrary, behind every qualia, there does exist consciousness. All qualia arise due to the interface of the consciousness and stimuli signals from environment or memory. Consciousness can exist even without qualia but not the converse.
Vinod Sehgal
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 1:34 AM, Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dr. Li,
Your work sounds interesting.
Can you send me the paper?
Thanks in advance.
Sung
On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 11:06 AM, <li...@fudan.edu.cn> wrote:
Dear all,
I think that the idea that the elementary particle has some qualia seems to be normal to me. But only when these qualia's can be combined into some integrated ones then they can be effectively seen as some consciousness. Otherwise, they are still just nothing.
On the other hand, I agree with William James that qualia cannot be combined so the conscious subject should be inseparable. I found his argument is very convincing. Actually,at least for me, no one has really refuted James' argument. They (e.g. D. Chalmers) think the qualia must be combinable only because if the conscious subject is something inseparable like elementary particle, there seems to be no way to stabilize it in our brain for such a long time and no way for the subject to interact with environment to gain such vivid experiences about the external work.
What if Nature indeed does find some way to stabilize some elementary particle with huge inner freedom in our brain and use the phenomenal properties this particle to produce conscious experiences that we experience everyday?
Actually, in one of my 2016 published article in Neuroquantology, I did find a simple physical principle that can be used to act as this role. If you are interested in my work please let me know and I can send you a copy. But I guess no one here will agree with me and will be interested about my work.
Cheers!
Dr Jianfeng Li
Department of Macromolecular Science
Fudan University, Shanghai 200433
CHINA
Phone: 86-21-65642125
Email: li...@fudan.edu.cn
-----原始邮件-----
发件人:"Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu>
发送时间:2017-06-26 20:18:30 (星期一)
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609-240-4833
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Dear Li,
Thanks for a copy of your paper. I will read it carefully. But one thing occurred to me right away. Whether consciousness has a weight or not is an interesting scientific proposition but very difficult to verify. In fact I remember and I am sure you know that , there were some bizarre (surely non rigorous ) experiments in past In connection with measurement of weight of a soul! These concluded that weight of a human soul is about 3 ounces! Apart from the fact that weighing a dying person is bizarre, there are several problems. A living person is breathing, air goes in and out and body exchanges heat with outside, water evaporates from the skin etc. It is using energy all the time.Many things happen. A dead person is in equilibrium with the environment. This is just an aside. I am surely interested in the theory that fundamental particles may have some consciousness or qualia whatever you call it even though they do not talk to you and scream!!
Dear Siegfried,
I am fascinated by what colours are. Like you, I feel my green qualia are a mixture of blue and yellow (though that need not necessarily be so). A lot of colour theorists consider our greenest green as a primary type of qualia. I also think I remember reading an article where some psychologist claimed he had a way of showing a yellowy blue that does NOT appear green! What I find most interesting though is the fact that violet (the purply colour at the blue end of the spectrum) seems to my mind a mixture of blue and red qualia. In other words, the visual system seems to have run out of qualia beyond our bluest blue and decided to mix in a little red (the qualia it uses to label the longer visual wavelengths! ). I find that fascinating. It suggests to me that there were no more primary types of qualia it could adapt! Then, of course, I might be unique. Your violet might not seem in the least bit related to red as mine does!
Best wishes,
Colin
C. S. Morrison - Author of THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation.
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
Send from Huawei Y360
On 29 Jun 2017, at 07:00, C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Dear Siegfried,
I am fascinated by what colours are. Like you, I feel my green qualia are a mixture of blue and yellow (though that need not necessarily be so). A lot of colour theorists consider our greenest green as a primary type of qualia. I also think I remember reading an article where some psychologist claimed he had a way of showing a yellowy blue that does NOT appear green! What I find most interesting though is the fact that violet (the purply colour at the blue end of the spectrum) seems to my mind a mixture of blue and red qualia. In other words, the visual system seems to have run out of qualia beyond our bluest blue and decided to mix in a little red (the qualia it uses to label the longer visual wavelengths! ). I find that fascinating. It suggests to me that there were no more primary types of qualia it could adapt! Then, of course, I might be unique. Your violet might not seem in the least bit related to red as mine does!
Best wishes,
Colin
On 27 Jun 2017 10:31, Siegfried Bleher <SBl...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Li,
I have not read William James’ account on qualia, but it seems to me inseparability of qualia does not exclude the possibility of new qualia to emerge from the juxtaposition of several. To whit, juxtaposing the colors blue and yellow create the experience of the color green. Although, in a kind of hysteresis, once the color green arises, it cannot be separated in awareness into blue and yellow—perhaps that is an artifact of the visual sense, as the auditory sense can hear the unique sound created by juxtaposing several frequencies, as well as it can isolate the separate frequencies.
But perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning?
Best wishes,
Siegfried
On Behalf Of li...@fudan.edu.cn
On 2 Jul 2017, at 20:09, Edwards, Jonathan <jo.ed...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
Dear Siegfried,
I think we have to be careful about colour. Colin has actually written very clearly on this in his book.
If you print yellow and blue dots on a sheet of paper small enough to merge you do not get green, you get a grey without any hue. If you shine yellow and blue light at someone together they see white light. The fact that you obtain a green colour if you mix cadmium yellow with Prussian blue paints is a quirk of combined absorbency, or absence of colours, not combined colours. In fact if you mix cadmium yellow with cobalt blue you get a rather nasty yuck colour.
The colours we are used to are nothing to do with specific physical properties of the outside world. They are concocted codes that our brains use to indicate clusters of dissimilar dynamic dispositions that happen to be usefully coded together. The dispositions that we ‘see’ as redness include a disposition to preferentially reflect long wavelength light, a disposition to preferentially transmit such light, a disposition to preferentially emit such light and the quite unrelated disposition of light itself to activate certain retinal receptors. None of these dispositions in themselves involve any qualia. And it is important to note that we do not even see the redness of a tomato because we are receiving mostly long wavelength light. If the illumination is predominantly short wavelength we will still see the tomato as exactly the same red (the colour constancy phenomenon) despite mostly getting ‘blue’ light from it. The brain shows its internal subjects what it has inferred about the disposition of the tomato, not what it is reflecting at a particular time.
There have been some quite useful studies of 'pure colour' categorisation in a wide range of cultural groups. It seems that all humans are programmed to see four ‘primary’ colours - red, yellow, green and blue. Artists think there are three - red, yellow and blue, because you can mix any hue with those three if you choose carefully. Biology textbooks tend to tell us there are three - red green and blue, because it is assumed that three types of cone will give us three colours and the peaks of response fall roughly in red, green and blue bands.
But recent work has pointed out that the school biology account is quite wrong. We have rods that give us white for stimulation and black for not (two qualia note). If we add one colour cone we should get a quale for more stimulation than expected given the rod input and one for less. The first in evolution is the short wavelength cone, which should give us blue and yellow. It should be yellow because that is what undifferentiated longish wavelength light is like. Except that in this situation of a lizard or fish brain we are not even entitled to say what ‘non-blue' should be called. In many mammals a second cone is added, which should give maybe another two colours, but things start to get complicated and one might argue that the number of colours increases geometrically with the number of receptors (n receptors giving 2 to the power n ‘pure’ options).
As far as I know there is no definitive account of how the system works but there is no doubt that it is complicated and a Kluge (a mix of a bit of this and a b it of that). As Colin indicates there are some quirks, like purple seeming to be close both to red and blue when nothing in physics is closer to red and blue than to yellow or green. Basically the brain rewrites everything in its own preferred code, nothing to do with spectra.
But standing back, what seems pretty uncontentious now is that there is o reason to think colours are ever ‘overlaid’ or ‘mixed’. If a nerve cell signals that the brain has deduced a disposition of a cloth to reflect mostly magenta the signal will signal that deduction. There is no mechanism as far as we know for it signalling two ‘overlaid’ deductions.
Best wishes
Jo
On 29 Jun 2017, at 07:00, C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Dear Siegfried,
I am fascinated by what colours are. Like you, I feel my green qualia are a mixture of blue and yellow (though that need not necessarily be so). A lot of colour theorists consider our greenest green as a primary type of qualia. I also think I remember reading an article where some psychologist claimed he had a way of showing a yellowy blue that does NOT appear green! What I find most interesting though is the fact that violet (the purply colour at the blue end of the spectrum) seems to my mind a mixture of blue and red qualia. In other words, the visual system seems to have run out of qualia beyond our bluest blue and decided to mix in a little red (the qualia it uses to label the longer visual wavelengths! ). I find that fascinating. It suggests to me that there were no more primary types of qualia it could adapt! Then, of course, I might be unique. Your violet might not seem in the least bit related to red as mine does!
Best wishes,
Colin
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