Srikanth, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] many worlds interpretation

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Vasavada, Kashyap V

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Jun 15, 2017, 1:47:24 PM6/15/17
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Dear Srikanth,

Thanks. As you know, there is a lot of controversy in derivation of Born rule in MWI. Some say that it is circular. They are basically assuming it and then proving it! Same arguments hold good about Gleason’s results. Anyway, I would like to understand your results somewhat more. For the time being let us leave ontology to philosophers. Quantum mechanics “as is” works beautifully as far as explaining experimental data is concerned. So let us also forget about extensions. In that case do your results support Bohm/Sutherland’s interpretation? I do not want to criticize this model/interpretation since I have not studied it. But I am doubtful and the consensus has gone against it.

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

 

From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Srikanth R.
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 11:38 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] many worlds interpretation

 

Greetings Bruno, Paul !

 

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

 

On 12 Jun 2017, at 19:52, Paul Werbos wrote:



 

 

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Srikanth R. <sr...@poornaprajna.org> wrote:

Dear Prof Vasavada,

 

I personally don't believe in the Many Worlds Interpretation because-- to repeat myself-- the only potential reason for buying its audacious metaphysical baggage, namely the derivation of Born rule from it, turns out to be provably false. 

 

 

At the end of the day, I too do not agree with Everett, Wheeler and Deutsch that the underlying cosmos is the kind of Fock-Hilbert space assumed by their version of Many Worlds (though we must keep an open mind).

 

Hmm... Everett gives the view of physics the most consistent with Mechanism. In fact Mechanism force to generalize Everett's embedding of the physicist in the physical reality into an embedding of the mathematicians's dreams in the arithmetical reality. The universal wave becomes itself phenomenological.

Everett's argument that measurement ala collapse of the wave function can be derived as emerging from the "Schrodinger equation" (Maxwell-Dirac dynamics) is not a valid proof at all.

Hmm... I tend to disagree. It seems to me that Gleason theorem do the task, but I agree some work remains to be done.

 

Gleason's theorem  gives us the Born rule, but it's quite non-committal with regard to any particular interpretation, AFAIK. 

 

Everett's argument, as well as others since, that claim to "derive" Born rule have all been shown to require an additional assumption, among them for example, deriving Born probability based on counting branches in which the universe possesses a given value or another, or based on an "existential measure". 

 

Having said that,  I like MWI for the mathematical metaphor it provides for visualizing how an undifferentiated, monolithic, primordial Consciousness becomes individuated into this multiplicity of individual selves. So maybe there is a Mechanistic process here...?

 

 

 



 

However, is the Born rule itself true? 

 

It is true that a combination of the usual Maxwell-Dirac dynamics WITH collapse of the wave function (ala Born rule) does give correct predictions for the 

Bell's Theorem experiments, and many standard things which do not involve entanglement at all. But a DIFFERENT measurement formalism, not based on the Born rule, which CAN be deduced from the Maxwell-Dirac dynamics via time-symmetric physics, ALSO gives correct predictions for those same experiments.  The two relevant papers are available on the web:

 

(1) the open access paper

P. Werbos, Bell's Theorem, Many Worlds and Backwards-Time Physics: Not Just a Matter of Interpretation, International Journal of Theoretical Physics (IJTP), Volume 47, Number 11, 2862-2874, DOI: 10.1007/s10773-008-9719-9.

 

Interesting!

 

 

 



and

 

(2) Werbos, Paul J., and Ludmilla Dolmatova. "Analog quantum computing (AQC) and the need for time-symmetric physics."Quantum Information Processing (2015): 1-15. This paper is not open access, but the journal allows me to post on my personal web page,www.werbos.com/triphoton.pdf.

 

 

Mechanism might enforce a time-symmetric physics, or at least a reversible physics. Some results suggest this formally at least. 

 

Thank you, Paul, for these references. 

 

In this connection, I might make bold to remark that we recently published a paper (at this link) disagreeing with the independent claims of two mathematicians from Princeton University and two theorists from ETH, Switzerland, that quantum mechanics can't be extended, i.e., given a deeper explanation in terms of a more explanatory model. The former use a combination of the Kochen-Specker and Bell inequalities, whilst the latter use the chained Bell inequality, to obtain their results, but the essential claim was that any realist model for explaining quantum nonlocal correlations would violate relativity. This observation was used to rule out such extensions, which led them to exclude models like Bohmian and GRW dynamic reduction. Not surprisingly, this was objected to by the Bohmian and GRW researchers, and our result supported this objection.

 

Thanks and regards,

Srik 

  

 

 



Until one of the two decisive experiments is performed  (the one proposed in the AQC paper, or a simpler more recent proposal), 

the proper posture is avoid too much dogmatism for or against Born. 

 

 

OK.

 

Best regards,

 

Bruno Marchal

 

 

 

 

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--

 

Dr. R. Srikanth

Assistant Professor

Dept. of Theoretical Sciences

Poornaprajna Institute of Scientific Research

Bangalore- 560 080, Karnataka, India.

 

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Srikanth R.

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Jun 21, 2017, 8:27:26 PM6/21/17
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Dear Kashyap,

Thank you for your interest! (Sorry, for the delay in getting back. I was tied up a thesis defense, etc.)

Our result does not directly impact the Sutherland modification of the Bohmian model, but says that the lack of Lorentz invariance in the underlying ontology is not a matter for worry, whether for the original Bohmian model or the GRW dynamic reduction models or any such models for quantum mechanics, so long as Lorentz invariance is guaranteed at the operational (i.e., experimentally accessible) level. 

The main conceptual advance of our paper is to indicate that the triad of basic resources that interplay in Bell nonlocality-- namely, signaling (S), randomness (R) and experimental freedom (F) in choosing measurement setting-- have different implications for the ontological and operational (i.e., quantum physical) theory. 
Mathematically, the interplay among these three resources assumes the form of a complementarity between signaling S and randomness R, parametrized by freedom F and the communication cost C. 

This is used to clarify that when quantum mechanical nonlocality is extended to an ontological model, then one commensurately "extends" special relativity (for example, in this sense) for the spacetime in which the dynamics of the underlying ontological variables is played out. 

Thanks and regards,
Srik


 




Greetings Bruno, Paul !

 

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