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Fifth International Conference
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August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Science and Scientist - 2016
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
BHAKTI VEDANTA INSTITUTE Report Archives
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Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
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Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear RLP Vimal,
Namaste. In your extended dual aspect monism, i.e. eDAM, you have critiqued Visistaadvaita philosophy for its neglect of the non-theistic harmonization of Reality. You say, “We simply cannot ignore the contribution of science in our lives. [1]” You have tried to cater to the viewpoints of both the theists as well as atheists. For example, you say that theists can assume the dual aspect Brahman as God. Atheists can assume Brahman as dual aspect entity at fundamental level such as physicist’s vacuum, deep quantum potential or Bohm’s Implicate Order from where all universes (including human beings) emerge via co-evolution [2].
Your (RLP Vimal’s) concept of eDAM
As you have proposed a ‘modified Visistadvaita’ through your eDAM, the natural question to ask is why do you think, that the visistaadvaita philosophy needs a modification from eDAM and if indeed so then in what respect. The dual aspects that you in [1] refer to are the physical aspects (e.g neural networks in brain) and the mental aspects (e.g. subjective experiences). In your opinion among all philosophies in religion and science, this modified Visistadvaita proposed by you has the least number of problems. In this regard you have taken up the issues of inseparability as very important. For example you refer to your Dual-Aspect Monism, where mind and matter are the inseparable aspects of the same entity state [3].
In defining concepts of matter, you have pointed out to the distinctions among the concept of Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le’ from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept. In the former matter has a form and potentiality for experiences, and you have accepted this concept of matter within your theory of eDAM. Then you distinguish it from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept (that matter is made up of atoms and which is pursued in science) which has the implication that matter is non-experiential within this framework. As this is faced with the hard problem of consciousness, you do not accept this within eDAM [4].
Further with that background, in defining the concept of consciousness, you state to have used the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le’s concept of matter that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective (1pp) [5].
While concluding from Sankaracharya’s advaita philosophy that the fundamental Reality is consciousness, i.e. the mental entity, you have mentioned that the advaita system does not explain by any step by step process that how the matter is created from a non-material entity mind (Brahman). And therefore this constitutes a serious explanatory gap within the Sankara’s Advaita system. You have noted that this is the reverse of the explanatory gap found in materialism that mind can be created out of matter [6]. And so you have taken the cue from Buddha and Nagarjuna and followed a middle path which is your theory of Dual Aspect Monism [7]. Your dual-aspect monism proposes that there are varying degrees of dominance of aspects depending of the entity-level and context is the middle path. This means that ‘the concept of the varying degrees of the manifestation (appearance/strength) of aspects’ means that the degree of ‘the appearance and/or strength of aspects’ varies depending on the levels of entities [8]. At each level, the manifestation of aspects is through dependent co-origination [9] i.e., through co-evolution, adaptation, natural selection, co-development and sensorimotor tuning.
But it is clear from your paper that you do not accept the Reality of Brahman as fully independent Truth. Your dual aspect monism does not accept that God/ Brahman is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience, who can affect each one of us and hence we must pray to him [10]. To substantiate your position you have asked the question Who created God/Brahman? And you have stated that the usual answer that Brahman is eternal and hence non-causal, is considered unacceptable to many. And that is the reason I feel you have taken recourse to the principle of dependent co origination because it denies any central or supreme position to any particular entity.
Thus even though you think that visitadvaita is close to your dual aspect monism, there are major differences between Visistadvaita and eDAM. Therefore you consider that visistadvaita like other world religions suffers from a built in interaction substance dualism. For example you state that the soul separates from the body at the time of death [11]. The truth however is that visistadvaita is a consistent and elegant philosophy, well honored in India and now all over the world by different scholars. However your inability to appreciate its foundational consistency and beauty stems from your misunderstanding of the true concept of Brahman as explained in Sri Ramanuja’s system.
Thus in your framework of modified visistadvaita which is a result of your dual aspect monism, you think that the problem is resolved when we can think that the mental aspect of Brahman causes mind and the physical aspect causes matter. From this dual aspect monistic view you further conclude that all entities including us, fermions and bosons are all Brahman [12]. But that is surely not the philosophy of visistadvaita propounded by Sripad Ramanuja Acharya.
The Critique of Vimal’s Philosophy of eDAM
The main difference between Vimal and Ramanuja seems to be on the use of the concept of Dual Aspect by Vimal. Sripad Ramanuja’s Monism is established on the basis of the concept of visista. But Vimal’s monism is attempted on the basis of the idea of dual aspect. Moreover it appears that Vimal has chosen a middle path from that of Buddha and Nagarjuna [13], who are quite clearly non-Vedantic in their approach, and therefore non-theistic. Vimal’s idea of manifestation of objects is through the concept of dependent co-origination. As far as I know the concept of dependent co origination is also founded upon the Buddhist line of thought [14], where the origin is said to be empty or Void [15]. In Buddhist thought everything is changing and dependent. That is the character of reality explained in Buddhism. It was mainly used to target into the causes of suffering but it was also considered as applicable to everything that constitutes Reality. So this then within Buddhism provides the basis for the quest for solution to all problems which we are entangled with. Within this Bauddha Samanvaya (Harmonization) of dependent co-origination of everything there cannot be any centre occupying the supreme position. Therefore, in solving one’s own problems the question/problems of ‘others’ becomes very important, and we cannot totally forget the problems of others.
But In Vedanta clearly the origin is Brahman. Brahman is not an absolute emptiness. Brahman is purna, or Complete in itself. In the Vedantic thought the process of negation will not lead to voidism or absolute emptiness. When we negate something it does not produce a void. For example when a cow eats grass, the grass does not become annihilated. Rather grass which was as if existing for itself, now serves the purpose of the cow as its part and parcel through the process of digesting. So by eating the cow negates the being of the grass as existing for itself. Therefore everything in nature is posited as if it is existing for itself. But by the process of negation that independent positing of entities is being negated in various ways and forms by nature. In this way everything exists for some higher and higher purposes in Nature, in which everything is appearing and vanishing as transitory moments. Therefore Reality is dynamic and it is never fixed. Thus everything is being negated for a higher purpose than that which is for itself. When we come to negation of all such negations, we arrive at the purpose of Absolute, or the Brahman. Therefore Brahman is cause of all causes or that which constitutes the Ultimate purpose. Everything exists for the satisfaction of the Absolute. Sripad Ramanuja has quite clearly shown that only Brahman is independent and everything is dependent upon Him (Brahman). Brahman depends only upon Himself and there is no other cause that is outside of Him or external to Him. We cannot limit Brahman because if we try to limit Brahman, Brahman finds itself beyond its limit as well. Therefore if we say what is beyond Brahman, then the answer is Brahman itself. Therefore questions posed ‘like who created God (Brahman)?’ neglect the position of Brahman as the cause of all causes and the Absolute Truth. Brahman is not some finite entity that can be limited by some boundary. Hegel, the German philosopher summarized this beautifully by saying, “Reality is by itself and for itself.” But such cannot be said of the finite entities like Table, chairs or ordinary living entities. All causes ultimately are to be traced to be dependent on Brahman. But Brahman is by itself, or is the substantial truth of all reality. Thus the entities are not only inseparable but also they are all dependent on Brahman for their being and becoming. This is the major difference between Vedanta’s principle of Brahman as the Cause of all Causes (sarva karana karanam) and Buddhism’s principle of dependent co origination. This is also therefore not in line with Visistaadvaita philosophy when Vimal claims that the concept of dependent co- origination can solve the so called problems of Visistadvaita, merely because the aspects or entities are inseparable. If Visistadvaita is being modified in this way it entails a complete misunderstanding of the underlying principle of visistadvaita which the author (Vimal) should address.
Therefore my suspicion is that this term ‘dual aspect’ in Vimal’s philosophy also has some influence from the idea of dependent co-origination and neglects the position of Brahman as cause of all causes. The mind and brain are of course appear to be inseparable in the organic unity of life processes in nature as long as life continues. But in Vedanta we have the principle of reincarnation by which it is clearly established that the subtle form comprising of soul covered with the mental structure disentangles with the more gross elements – i.e. brain and body at the time of death. In fact we must ask by what means reincarnation takes place. In fact there are also living entities that do not possess any distinctive brain system. Yet they are also intelligent. For example the trees, single celled organisms etc. are all intelligent. We can understand these intelligent concepts of living organisms through the living process which can be written down as an algorithm in terms of the material elements like the atoms and molecules. But the source of this algorithm cannot be pinned down to these material elements. In biology the conventional concepts of Central dogma are for this reason found to be untenable. For example in Wikipedia entry about Robert Rosen, an American biologist, it is mentioned, “He concluded, based on examples such as this, that phenotype cannot always be directly attributed to genotype and that the chemically active aspect of a biologically active protein relies on more than the sequence of amino acids, from which it was constructed: there must be some other important factors at work, that he did not however attempt to specify or pin down. [16]” Additionally we must mention that the concept of internal teleology is quite clearly an inseparable part of such causal processes.
Regarding the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le concept of matter, it is quite true that they have not explained matter in the way of modern atomistic view of science. According to Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, “Matter is a symbol of undeveloped consciousness. [17]” Therefore this system can only be understood from the concept of the organic whole. But that does not mean that we can regard that matter can produce consciousness. We need to clearly study the logic of life processes to understand this. The category of acit potency or material energy is never the source of life in the Vedantic thought. Yet the acit potency is dependent category and an attribute in the philosophy of Ramanuja. So we cannot regard matter and mind as being merely dual aspect of the same entity. When there is death there is no more consciousness in the dead body. Neither does the residual dead cell act in any conscious manner. They just disintegrate according to the laws of entropy. Therefore this body and the life principle have no intrinsic relation to each other after death. But how matter is produced is an important question. As we can see when the life principle is present, the body of the organism develops and changes. We have already suggested that no one has done any precise experiment to ascertain whether the law of conservation of mass and energy in case of life is obeyed. According to the Vedantic thought there must be a discrepancy and this discrepancy can be experimentally determined. Therefore what is the problem to think that the whole world of material plane can come from the potencies of Original life, which is the theistic position of the major World Religions. Therefore the problem of Unity is solved through the axiomatic principle of Vedanta (i) Life comes from Life, and (ii) Matter comes from Life.
When you state that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective, it is certainly true that the brain mind system is intricately involved in the different expressions of phenomenal consciousness. Yet the brain cannot be the source of consciousness. Rather when life is present, it produces the inseparable brain mind system within the organic unity of the concept of species. As we know that every cell is sentient, we can only say that in the living process the different organs produce each other. Yet it is the life principle which is a higher and superior category in Vedanta, without which there will be no such process. It is this living entity which holds together the separated material energies in the life process. Hence the life process has a much deeper conceptual relation to Reality. Therefore the natural process of life is inconceivable within physics and chemistry. Chemistry never becomes life in nature.
Some Notes on Visista-advaita Philosophy of Sri Ramanuja
First let us try to understand something about the philosophy of Visistadvaita. This is a system of Philosophy given by Sripad Ramanujacharya and this critiqued the then and dominating thesis of the kevala advaita system of Adi Sankaracharya. The first point therefore should be to understand the distinction between advaita and kevala advaita. The advaita philosophy has been there in India from time immemorial. It did not begin with Sripad Adi Sankaracharya and neither did he coin the term advaita. Advaita means the non-dual truth. But Sankaracharya’s explanation of advaita is called kevala advaita or Monism. In this explanation the phenomenal reality was an unreality or illusion stemming from avidya or ignorance. Sankaracharya had dismissed plurality by focusing on avidya for establishing his explanation of advaita or non-dualism. But advaita did not always mean Monism in Indian Philosophical traditions. It is the Sankara’s advaita in which the term means monism and therefore it has been categorized not just as advaita but with a qualifier as kevala-advaita. Thus it was distinguished from the philosophy of Suddha Advaita by the line of teachers in Sripad Sridhar Swami’s theistic tradition and other vaishnava acharya’s to protect the real meaning of Advaita as was and is being taught in the theistic schools of India from the onslaught of the Sankara’s reductive philosophy of Monism, where all is reduced to One.
Sripad Ramanuja Acharya gave the concept of Organic Whole in his philosophy of Visitaadvaita. In this he has achieved the great reconciliation of the One with the Many. Sankara had concluded that the Many is illusory manifestations of the One due to the function of Maya or avidya (ignorance). And therefore Sankara had stressed on the Reality One and the illusion of the Many. Therefore Sankara’s philosophy is that of reductive idealism and he stresses only on the principle of identity that exists between the One and the Many based upon the principle of ignorance. He neglects or makes the distinction between one and many a product of illusion, giving distinctions no reality [18].
But Sripad Ramanuja Acharya has stressed that the principle of distinction is a reality. It is not merely a result of illusion as held in Sankara’s line of thinking. Sripad Ramanuja has stressed the reality of both Many as well as the One. The ‘many’ are not the illusory manifestations of the one but they are held in their inseparable relation of dependence on the One. In this way Sripad Ramanuja returned the atman or the soul back to the Vedantins, which was previously lost in the Brahman of Sankara’s kevala advaita system of thought [19].
Therefore matter, souls and Brahman are all real in Ramanuja. The world of matter and souls is treated as attributes of the Brahman. The technical Sanskrit term for attributes is visesanas. The first point is that Brahman is not merely an attributeless homogenous stuff of consciousness. Brahman is Supra Personality or the best of Personalities, or Adi Purusha or Purushottama. He is endowed with infinity of auspicious attributes. He is all knowing, all powerful, all merciful as well as the transcendent Supreme Being. The world of souls (cit) and the world of matter (acit) are regarded as His chief attributes (visesanas). And He is the fundamental Substance (visesya). From this view of the complex whole (called Vaisitya drstya), Brahman is One without a second. Only from this point of view is Ramanuja’s view Monistic, and therefore this kind of Monism is quite different from Sankara’s attributeless Monism. Therefore Ramanuja’s Monism is called visista Advaita. From the angle of vision of the attributes (visesanas), they are different from Brahman, but all time they are always dependent on Brahman and inseparable from Brahman. The distinction and plurality of the souls persists with their dependence on God. Their distinction does not go against their dependence on God. The Brahman of Ramanuja "is an organic unity in which, as in all living organisms one element predominates over and controls the rest. [20]”
The subordinate elements are termed visesanas and the predominant element visesya. Because the visesanas cannot exist by themselves separately, the complex whole (visista) in which they are included is described as a unity. Hence, the name of Ramanuja philosophy is Visistadvaita. Therefore Reality according to Ramanuja is not merely a bare identity as held in Sankara. Reality is an identity-in-difference and the difference is not unreal. The identity element holds the difference and makes for the unity and there is a coordination of identity and difference. In Ramanuja’s system the world of souls and matter are co eternal with God, but not external from Him. Matter or prakriti through pradhan and mahatattva comes from Brahman as one of its energies and is called bahiranga or external energy (appearing external or separate as Maya) thus it is an eternal potential but not intrinsic to Him as his antaranga or spiritual energy. The relation between matter, souls and God in Ramanuja’s system is called aprthaka siddhi. This relation is an eternal one and it maintains distinctions between entities that are in intimate and inseparable relation to each other. Therefore Brahman is the inner immortal ruler and this is based upon the concept of the indweller (antaryami). Moreover Brahman is not unknowable [21]. Ramanuja discovered the epistemological plane called adhoksaja in which such knowability becomes possible.
During the state of dissolution, the world of souls and matter remain in a subtle form within the Lord. This aspect of Lord is called karanavastha, or the causal state. In the effect stage, it is called karyavastha. In this stage the world of souls, get attached to the world of matter and are said to be born. In this way the effect is not something entirely different from the cause. The cause itself gets transformed onto effect and this is called parinamavada. Parinaama means change. So as soon as we ask does that mean God Himself changes into the world of matter and souls. And if so does that not taint Him as something defective. But Ramanuja avoids all these defects and still maintains the concept of change through the category called dharmabhuta jnana, or attributive knowledge. It is not that the Lord changes or the souls change. The Lord and the souls are of the nature of substantive knowledge or jnana. Besides this the Lord and souls have an attributive called dharmabhuta jnana. What changes is the attribute (visesana) called the dharmabhuta jnana, or the attributive knowledge and not the substantive jnana. This dharmabhuta jnana is substance as well as attribute. It is substance in the sense that it undergoes changes and produces effects which are called material cause. It is however not the inert matter. It is this dharmabhuta jnana which operates through the mental faculties and produces knowledge. Not only knowledge but also internal states like desires and aversion are also regarded as the transformation of this dharmabhuta jnana. As it is this attributive knowledge that changes there is no necessity of parinaamavada for God. Thus the change in the attribute does not taint or effect the Lord in anyway. Ramanuja is neither a follower parinaamavaada nor that of vivartavaada [22]. This point is also accepted and supported by Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura in his Bhagavad-Gita commentary where he has clearly mentioned that the Gaudiya philosophy does not adhere to Brahma-Parinaamavad. But that the Gaudiyas are the proponents of Shakti-parinaamavad. What is transformed is not the Brahman, but the potency. Therefore the cosmos is not directly a transformation of Brahman. Rather the cosmos is a transformation of shakti or potency, hence the name shakti-parinaamavaad. Thus for Ramanuja, Lord is the Supreme Reality and all others including the chit as well as the acit are dependent upon Him. Every word in the veda has for its plenary significance, the Lord. It is only in the secondary sense that the words of the veda refer to the things of the world, but in the deeper significance of the words are called Vedanta-vyutpatti and it always refers to Brahman or God [23].
The entire world of Reality according to Ramanuja can be categorized as dravyas (substance) and adravyas (attributes). Thus colour, sound, taste, etc. all come under the category of attributes and these go on to constitute prakriti. Potency is also an adravya or the attribute. Besides the attributes there are six substances (dravyas) which can be classified under the categories of material or non material. The non-material entities are (i) God, (ii) jiva, (iii) Nitya Vibhuti, (iv) dharmabhuta jnana. Time as experienced in the material plane and prakriti constitutes the material variety of substances. Prakriti which is comprised of three modes of material nature stops at the borderline of nitya-vibuti, which is transcendental nature (super prakriti) under the control of the Lord. Time is within Brahman for Ramanuja and space is derived from prakriti [23].
The predecessors of Ramanuja, like the alvars as well as the followers have always presented a theistic concept of Vedanta and explained the philosophy of love of God in their writings. To them, the Holy Ramanujaites, God is not merely a theoretical abstraction but a fact of the experience of the surrendered souls who have developed love of Godhead. Their main theme is the greatness of God and His glory as well as His presence in everything. They stress that the mercy of the Lord as unconditional and all comprehensive. Mercy is higher than Justice. Sripad Ramanuja Acharya was a great genius and a many sided scholar and the foremost of the visistadvaita dialecticians. According to Ramanuja knowledge always has a corresponding object. There is never an objectless cognition. Ramanuja also explained that the cognition of an attributeless object is a mere fiction. A non-qualified object can never be the object of cognition.
Conclusion
Vimal attempts a modification of Visistadvaita without considering many of the essential elements of the philosophy of Sri Ramanuja. Therefore the problems that are cited by him like the Ist pp, cannot be solved within modified visistaadvaita. The reason is that he relies more on the concept of dependent co origination. However the Brahman according to Vedanta is the janmady asya yatah – the source of all that be. The atheistic position has been scrutinized well by Ramanuja, especially when he faced the Buddhists philosophers of his time as well as the Sankarites and others. Therefore it is incorrect to dismiss visistadvaita simply by saying that it does not cater to a non-theistic harmonization of reality. No non-theistic harmonization has ever been achieved. The problems of consciousness are major question mark over such attempts. However the theistic position clearly outlines guidelines for ascertaining how matter can come from life. Therefore only the theistic position has the proper capacity to produce the harmonization that is necessary for a truly rational and comprehensive understanding of reality.
References
[1] Vimal, R.L.P., Vimal, M., U., P. Introducing extended Dual-Aspect Monism (Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) Framework in Religion: Prāṇa Pratiṣṭha, https://www.researchgate.net/p ublication/283243225, DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.1.4356.4249, October, 2015, pp. 2.
[2] ibid, 1.[3] ibid 1., pp. 3.[4] ibid., 3.[5] ibid 1., pp. 4.[6] ibid 1., pp. 8.[7] ibid 1., pp. 8.[8] ibid 1., pp. 12.[9] ibid 1., pp. 12.[10] ibid 1., pp. 9.[11] ibid 1., pp. 1, 9.[12] ibid 1., pp. 9.[13] ibid 1., pp. 8.[14] Tilakaratne, A., Director, Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies, 133/19, Nawala Road, Narahenpita, Colombo 05 Sri Lanka. refer to the article: ‘Dependent Co-origination: The Buddhist Approach to Reality’, http://www.beyondthenet.net/sl abs/articles/Dependent.pdf[15] quoted in [14], “If empty is not seen then reaching what has not been reached, the act of terminating suffering as well as the relinquishing of all defilements also will not be seen.” (Nagarjuna, XXIV: 38-39).
[17] Prabhupada A.C., Bhaktivedanta Swami, quoted in http://gitabase.com/eng/LTRS/1 976/2/76FE, letter to Sripad Madhava Das [Brahmachari name of Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja].
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[23] The section 4.0 contains some thoughts from ideas that were discussed by Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, PhD over Skype.
Dear Dr. Bhakti Vijnana Muni ji,
Thanks for your excellent critique, which has sharpened the extended Dual-Aspect Monism (eDAM, Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) framework
My responses to your critique are given in Section 3.6 (3.6.1 to 3.6.7) of (Vimal & Pandey-Vimal, 2011).
Your feedback will be highly appreciated.
Cheers!
Kindest regards,Ram17 Jan. 2017
------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Saturday, 14 January 2017 5:50 PM, "'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegrou ps.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Bhakti Vijnana Muni,
THANKS for your interest in the eDAM/Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita framework and providing excellent critique.
I am in the process of addressing your comments, and I will let you know as soon as it is completed.
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Kindest regards,Ram14 Jan. 2017
------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear RLP Vimal,
Namaste. In your extended dual aspect monism, i.e. eDAM, you have critiqued Visistaadvaita philosophy for its neglect of the non-theistic harmonization of Reality. You say, “We simply cannot ignore the contribution of science in our lives. [1]” You have tried to cater to the viewpoints of both the theists as well as atheists. For example, you say that theists can assume the dual aspect Brahman as God. Atheists can assume Brahman as dual aspect entity at fundamental level such as physicist’s vacuum, deep quantum potential or Bohm’s Implicate Order from where all universes (including human beings) emerge via co-evolution [2].
Your (RLP Vimal’s) concept of eDAM
As you have proposed a ‘modified Visistadvaita’ through your eDAM, the natural question to ask is why do you think, that the visistaadvaita philosophy needs a modification from eDAM and if indeed so then in what respect. The dual aspects that you in [1] refer to are the physical aspects (e.g neural networks in brain) and the mental aspects (e.g. subjective experiences). In your opinion among all philosophies in religion and science, this modified Visistadvaita proposed by you has the least number of problems. In this regard you have taken up the issues of inseparability as very important. For example you refer to your Dual-Aspect Monism, where mind and matter are the inseparable aspects of the same entity state [3].
In defining concepts of matter, you have pointed out to the distinctions among the concept of Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le’ from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept. In the former matter has a form and potentiality for experiences, and you have accepted this concept of matter within your theory of eDAM. Then you distinguish it from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept (that matter is made up of atoms and which is pursued in science) which has the implication that matter is non-experiential within this framework. As this is faced with the hard problem of consciousness, you do not accept this within eDAM [4].
Further with that background, in defining the concept of consciousness, you state to have used the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le’s concept of matter that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective (1pp) [5].
While concluding from Sankaracharya’s advaita philosophy that the fundamental Reality is consciousness, i.e. the mental entity, you have mentioned that the advaita system does not explain by any step by step process that how the matter is created from a non-material entity mind (Brahman). And therefore this constitutes a serious explanatory gap within the Sankara’s Advaita system. You have noted that this is the reverse of the explanatory gap found in materialism that mind can be created out of matter [6]. And so you have taken the cue from Buddha and Nagarjuna and followed a middle path which is your theory of Dual Aspect Monism [7]. Your dual-aspect monism proposes that there are varying degrees of dominance of aspects depending of the entity-level and context is the middle path. This means that ‘the concept of the varying degrees of the manifestation (appearance/strength) of aspects’ means that the degree of ‘the appearance and/or strength of aspects’ varies depending on the levels of entities [8]. At each level, the manifestation of aspects is through dependent co-origination [9] i.e., through co-evolution, adaptation, natural selection, co-development and sensorimotor tuning.
But it is clear from your paper that you do not accept the Reality of Brahman as fully independent Truth. Your dual aspect monism does not accept that God/ Brahman is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience, who can affect each one of us and hence we must pray to him [10]. To substantiate your position you have asked the question Who created God/Brahman? And you have stated that the usual answer that Brahman is eternal and hence non-causal, is considered unacceptable to many. And that is the reason I feel you have taken recourse to the principle of dependent co origination because it denies any central or supreme position to any particular entity.
Thus even though you think that visitadvaita is close to your dual aspect monism, there are major differences between Visistadvaita and eDAM. Therefore you consider that visistadvaita like other world religions suffers from a built in interaction substance dualism. For example you state that the soul separates from the body at the time of death [11]. The truth however is that visistadvaita is a consistent and elegant philosophy, well honored in India and now all over the world by different scholars. However your inability to appreciate its foundational consistency and beauty stems from your misunderstanding of the true concept of Brahman as explained in Sri Ramanuja’s system.
Thus in your framework of modified visistadvaita which is a result of your dual aspect monism, you think that the problem is resolved when we can think that the mental aspect of Brahman causes mind and the physical aspect causes matter. From this dual aspect monistic view you further conclude that all entities including us, fermions and bosons are all Brahman [12]. But that is surely not the philosophy of visistadvaita propounded by Sripad Ramanuja Acharya.
The Critique of Vimal’s Philosophy of eDAM
The main difference between Vimal and Ramanuja seems to be on the use of the concept of Dual Aspect by Vimal. Sripad Ramanuja’s Monism is established on the basis of the concept of visista. But Vimal’s monism is attempted on the basis of the idea of dual aspect. Moreover it appears that Vimal has chosen a middle path from that of Buddha and Nagarjuna [13], who are quite clearly non-Vedantic in their approach, and therefore non-theistic. Vimal’s idea of manifestation of objects is through the concept of dependent co-origination. As far as I know the concept of dependent co origination is also founded upon the Buddhist line of thought [14], where the origin is said to be empty or Void [15]. In Buddhist thought everything is changing and dependent. That is the character of reality explained in Buddhism. It was mainly used to target into the causes of suffering but it was also considered as applicable to everything that constitutes Reality. So this then within Buddhism provides the basis for the quest for solution to all problems which we are entangled with. Within this Bauddha Samanvaya (Harmonization) of dependent co-origination of everything there cannot be any centre occupying the supreme position. Therefore, in solving one’s own problems the question/problems of ‘others’ becomes very important, and we cannot totally forget the problems of others.
But In Vedanta clearly the origin is Brahman. Brahman is not an absolute emptiness. Brahman is purna, or Complete in itself. In the Vedantic thought the process of negation will not lead to voidism or absolute emptiness. When we negate something it does not produce a void. For example when a cow eats grass, the grass does not become annihilated. Rather grass which was as if existing for itself, now serves the purpose of the cow as its part and parcel through the process of digesting. So by eating the cow negates the being of the grass as existing for itself. Therefore everything in nature is posited as if it is existing for itself. But by the process of negation that independent positing of entities is being negated in various ways and forms by nature. In this way everything exists for some higher and higher purposes in Nature, in which everything is appearing and vanishing as transitory moments. Therefore Reality is dynamic and it is never fixed. Thus everything is being negated for a higher purpose than that which is for itself. When we come to negation of all such negations, we arrive at the purpose of Absolute, or the Brahman. Therefore Brahman is cause of all causes or that which constitutes the Ultimate purpose. Everything exists for the satisfaction of the Absolute. Sripad Ramanuja has quite clearly shown that only Brahman is independent and everything is dependent upon Him (Brahman). Brahman depends only upon Himself and there is no other cause that is outside of Him or external to Him. We cannot limit Brahman because if we try to limit Brahman, Brahman finds itself beyond its limit as well. Therefore if we say what is beyond Brahman, then the answer is Brahman itself. Therefore questions posed ‘like who created God (Brahman)?’ neglect the position of Brahman as the cause of all causes and the Absolute Truth. Brahman is not some finite entity that can be limited by some boundary. Hegel, the German philosopher summarized this beautifully by saying, “Reality is by itself and for itself.” But such cannot be said of the finite entities like Table, chairs or ordinary living entities. All causes ultimately are to be traced to be dependent on Brahman. But Brahman is by itself, or is the substantial truth of all reality. Thus the entities are not only inseparable but also they are all dependent on Brahman for their being and becoming. This is the major difference between Vedanta’s principle of Brahman as the Cause of all Causes (sarva karana karanam) and Buddhism’s principle of dependent co origination. This is also therefore not in line with Visistaadvaita philosophy when Vimal claims that the concept of dependent co- origination can solve the so called problems of Visistadvaita, merely because the aspects or entities are inseparable. If Visistadvaita is being modified in this way it entails a complete misunderstanding of the underlying principle of visistadvaita which the author (Vimal) should address.
Therefore my suspicion is that this term ‘dual aspect’ in Vimal’s philosophy also has some influence from the idea of dependent co-origination and neglects the position of Brahman as cause of all causes. The mind and brain are of course appear to be inseparable in the organic unity of life processes in nature as long as life continues. But in Vedanta we have the principle of reincarnation by which it is clearly established that the subtle form comprising of soul covered with the mental structure disentangles with the more gross elements – i.e. brain and body at the time of death. In fact we must ask by what means reincarnation takes place. In fact there are also living entities that do not possess any distinctive brain system. Yet they are also intelligent. For example the trees, single celled organisms etc. are all intelligent. We can understand these intelligent concepts of living organisms through the living process which can be written down as an algorithm in terms of the material elements like the atoms and molecules. But the source of this algorithm cannot be pinned down to these material elements. In biology the conventional concepts of Central dogma are for this reason found to be untenable. For example in Wikipedia entry about Robert Rosen, an American biologist, it is mentioned, “He concluded, based on examples such as this, that phenotype cannot always be directly attributed to genotype and that the chemically active aspect of a biologically active protein relies on more than the sequence of amino acids, from which it was constructed: there must be some other important factors at work, that he did not however attempt to specify or pin down. [16]” Additionally we must mention that the concept of internal teleology is quite clearly an inseparable part of such causal processes.
Regarding the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le concept of matter, it is quite true that they have not explained matter in the way of modern atomistic view of science. According to Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, “Matter is a symbol of undeveloped consciousness. [17]” Therefore this system can only be understood from the concept of the organic whole. But that does not mean that we can regard that matter can produce consciousness. We need to clearly study the logic of life processes to understand this. The category of acit potency or material energy is never the source of life in the Vedantic thought. Yet the acit potency is dependent category and an attribute in the philosophy of Ramanuja. So we cannot regard matter and mind as being merely dual aspect of the same entity. When there is death there is no more consciousness in the dead body. Neither does the residual dead cell act in any conscious manner. They just disintegrate according to the laws of entropy. Therefore this body and the life principle have no intrinsic relation to each other after death. But how matter is produced is an important question. As we can see when the life principle is present, the body of the organism develops and changes. We have already suggested that no one has done any precise experiment to ascertain whether the law of conservation of mass and energy in case of life is obeyed. According to the Vedantic thought there must be a discrepancy and this discrepancy can be experimentally determined. Therefore what is the problem to think that the whole world of material plane can come from the potencies of Original life, which is the theistic position of the major World Religions. Therefore the problem of Unity is solved through the axiomatic principle of Vedanta (i) Life comes from Life, and (ii) Matter comes from Life.
When you state that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective, it is certainly true that the brain mind system is intricately involved in the different expressions of phenomenal consciousness. Yet the brain cannot be the source of consciousness. Rather when life is present, it produces the inseparable brain mind system within the organic unity of the concept of species. As we know that every cell is sentient, we can only say that in the living process the different organs produce each other. Yet it is the life principle which is a higher and superior category in Vedanta, without which there will be no such process. It is this living entity which holds together the separated material energies in the life process. Hence the life process has a much deeper conceptual relation to Reality. Therefore the natural process of life is inconceivable within physics and chemistry. Chemistry never becomes life in nature.
Some Notes on Visista-advaita Philosophy of Sri Ramanuja
First let us try to understand something about the philosophy of Visistadvaita. This is a system of Philosophy given by Sripad Ramanujacharya and this critiqued the then and dominating thesis of the kevala advaita system of Adi Sankaracharya. The first point therefore should be to understand the distinction between advaita and kevala advaita. The advaita philosophy has been there in India from time immemorial. It did not begin with Sripad Adi Sankaracharya and neither did he coin the term advaita. Advaita means the non-dual truth. But Sankaracharya’s explanation of advaita is called kevala advaita or Monism. In this explanation the phenomenal reality was an unreality or illusion stemming from avidya or ignorance. Sankaracharya had dismissed plurality by focusing on avidya for establishing his explanation of advaita or non-dualism. But advaita did not always mean Monism in Indian Philosophical traditions. It is the Sankara’s advaita in which the term means monism and therefore it has been categorized not just as advaita but with a qualifier as kevala-advaita. Thus it was distinguished from the philosophy of Suddha Advaita by the line of teachers in Sripad Sridhar Swami’s theistic tradition and other vaishnava acharya’s to protect the real meaning of Advaita as was and is being taught in the theistic schools of India from the onslaught of the Sankara’s reductive philosophy of Monism, where all is reduced to One.
Sripad Ramanuja Acharya gave the concept of Organic Whole in his philosophy of Visitaadvaita. In this he has achieved the great reconciliation of the One with the Many. Sankara had concluded that the Many is illusory manifestations of the One due to the function of Maya or avidya (ignorance). And therefore Sankara had stressed on the Reality One and the illusion of the Many. Therefore Sankara’s philosophy is that of reductive idealism and he stresses only on the principle of identity that exists between the One and the Many based upon the principle of ignorance. He neglects or makes the distinction between one and many a product of illusion, giving distinctions no reality [18].
But Sripad Ramanuja Acharya has stressed that the principle of distinction is a reality. It is not merely a result of illusion as held in Sankara’s line of thinking. Sripad Ramanuja has stressed the reality of both Many as well as the One. The ‘many’ are not the illusory manifestations of the one but they are held in their inseparable relation of dependence on the One. In this way Sripad Ramanuja returned the atman or the soul back to the Vedantins, which was previously lost in the Brahman of Sankara’s kevala advaita system of thought [19].
Therefore matter, souls and Brahman are all real in Ramanuja. The world of matter and souls is treated as attributes of the Brahman. The technical Sanskrit term for attributes is visesanas. The first point is that Brahman is not merely an attributeless homogenous stuff of consciousness. Brahman is Supra Personality or the best of Personalities, or Adi Purusha or Purushottama. He is endowed with infinity of auspicious attributes. He is all knowing, all powerful, all merciful as well as the transcendent Supreme Being. The world of souls (cit) and the world of matter (acit) are regarded as His chief attributes (visesanas). And He is the fundamental Substance (visesya). From this view of the complex whole (called Vaisitya drstya), Brahman is One without a second. Only from this point of view is Ramanuja’s view Monistic, and therefore this kind of Monism is quite different from Sankara’s attributeless Monism. Therefore Ramanuja’s Monism is called visista Advaita. From the angle of vision of the attributes (visesanas), they are different from Brahman, but all time they are always dependent on Brahman and inseparable from Brahman. The distinction and plurality of the souls persists with their dependence on God. Their distinction does not go against their dependence on God. The Brahman of Ramanuja "is an organic unity in which, as in all living organisms one element predominates over and controls the rest. [20]”
The subordinate elements are termed visesanas and the predominant element visesya. Because the visesanas cannot exist by themselves separately, the complex whole (visista) in which they are included is described as a unity. Hence, the name of Ramanuja philosophy is Visistadvaita. Therefore Reality according to Ramanuja is not merely a bare identity as held in Sankara. Reality is an identity-in-difference and the difference is not unreal. The identity element holds the difference and makes for the unity and there is a coordination of identity and difference. In Ramanuja’s system the world of souls and matter are co eternal with God, but not external from Him. Matter or prakriti through pradhan and mahatattva comes from Brahman as one of its energies and is called bahiranga or external energy (appearing external or separate as Maya) thus it is an eternal potential but not intrinsic to Him as his antaranga or spiritual energy. The relation between matter, souls and God in Ramanuja’s system is called aprthaka siddhi. This relation is an eternal one and it maintains distinctions between entities that are in intimate and inseparable relation to each other. Therefore Brahman is the inner immortal ruler and this is based upon the concept of the indweller (antaryami). Moreover Brahman is not unknowable [21]. Ramanuja discovered the epistemological plane called adhoksaja in which such knowability becomes possible.
During the state of dissolution, the world of souls and matter remain in a subtle form within the Lord. This aspect of Lord is called karanavastha, or the causal state. In the effect stage, it is called karyavastha. In this stage the world of souls, get attached to the world of matter and are said to be born. In this way the effect is not something entirely different from the cause. The cause itself gets transformed onto effect and this is called parinamavada. Parinaama means change. So as soon as we ask does that mean God Himself changes into the world of matter and souls. And if so does that not taint Him as something defective. But Ramanuja avoids all these defects and still maintains the concept of change through the category called dharmabhuta jnana, or attributive knowledge. It is not that the Lord changes or the souls change. The Lord and the souls are of the nature of substantive knowledge or jnana. Besides this the Lord and souls have an attributive called dharmabhuta jnana. What changes is the attribute (visesana) called the dharmabhuta jnana, or the attributive knowledge and not the substantive jnana. This dharmabhuta jnana is substance as well as attribute. It is substance in the sense that it undergoes changes and produces effects which are called material cause. It is however not the inert matter. It is this dharmabhuta jnana which operates through the mental faculties and produces knowledge. Not only knowledge but also internal states like desires and aversion are also regarded as the transformation of this dharmabhuta jnana. As it is this attributive knowledge that changes there is no necessity of parinaamavada for God. Thus the change in the attribute does not taint or effect the Lord in anyway. Ramanuja is neither a follower parinaamavaada nor that of vivartavaada [22]. This point is also accepted and supported by Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura in his Bhagavad-Gita commentary where he has clearly mentioned that the Gaudiya philosophy does not adhere to Brahma-Parinaamavad. But that the Gaudiyas are the proponents of Shakti-parinaamavad. What is transformed is not the Brahman, but the potency. Therefore the cosmos is not directly a transformation of Brahman. Rather the cosmos is a transformation of shakti or potency, hence the name shakti-parinaamavaad. Thus for Ramanuja, Lord is the Supreme Reality and all others including the chit as well as the acit are dependent upon Him. Every word in the veda has for its plenary significance, the Lord. It is only in the secondary sense that the words of the veda refer to the things of the world, but in the deeper significance of the words are called Vedanta-vyutpatti and it always refers to Brahman or God [23].
The entire world of Reality according to Ramanuja can be categorized as dravyas (substance) and adravyas (attributes). Thus colour, sound, taste, etc. all come under the category of attributes and these go on to constitute prakriti. Potency is also an adravya or the attribute. Besides the attributes there are six substances (dravyas) which can be classified under the categories of material or non material. The non-material entities are (i) God, (ii) jiva, (iii) Nitya Vibhuti, (iv) dharmabhuta jnana. Time as experienced in the material plane and prakriti constitutes the material variety of substances. Prakriti which is comprised of three modes of material nature stops at the borderline of nitya-vibuti, which is transcendental nature (super prakriti) under the control of the Lord. Time is within Brahman for Ramanuja and space is derived from prakriti [23].
The predecessors of Ramanuja, like the alvars as well as the followers have always presented a theistic concept of Vedanta and explained the philosophy of love of God in their writings. To them, the Holy Ramanujaites, God is not merely a theoretical abstraction but a fact of the experience of the surrendered souls who have developed love of Godhead. Their main theme is the greatness of God and His glory as well as His presence in everything. They stress that the mercy of the Lord as unconditional and all comprehensive. Mercy is higher than Justice. Sripad Ramanuja Acharya was a great genius and a many sided scholar and the foremost of the visistadvaita dialecticians. According to Ramanuja knowledge always has a corresponding object. There is never an objectless cognition. Ramanuja also explained that the cognition of an attributeless object is a mere fiction. A non-qualified object can never be the object of cognition.
Conclusion
Vimal attempts a modification of Visistadvaita without considering many of the essential elements of the philosophy of Sri Ramanuja. Therefore the problems that are cited by him like the Ist pp, cannot be solved within modified visistaadvaita. The reason is that he relies more on the concept of dependent co origination. However the Brahman according to Vedanta is the janmady asya yatah – the source of all that be. The atheistic position has been scrutinized well by Ramanuja, especially when he faced the Buddhists philosophers of his time as well as the Sankarites and others. Therefore it is incorrect to dismiss visistadvaita simply by saying that it does not cater to a non-theistic harmonization of reality. No non-theistic harmonization has ever been achieved. The problems of consciousness are major question mark over such attempts. However the theistic position clearly outlines guidelines for ascertaining how matter can come from life. Therefore only the theistic position has the proper capacity to produce the harmonization that is necessary for a truly rational and comprehensive understanding of reality.
References
[1] Vimal, R.L.P., Vimal, M., U., P. Introducing extended Dual-Aspect Monism (Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) Framework in Religion: Prāṇa Pratiṣṭha, https://www.researchgate.net/p ublication/283243225, DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.1.4356.4249, October, 2015, pp. 2.
[2] ibid, 1.[3] ibid 1., pp. 3.[4] ibid., 3.[5] ibid 1., pp. 4.[6] ibid 1., pp. 8.[7] ibid 1., pp. 8.[8] ibid 1., pp. 12.[9] ibid 1., pp. 12.[10] ibid 1., pp. 9.[11] ibid 1., pp. 1, 9.[12] ibid 1., pp. 9.[13] ibid 1., pp. 8.[14] Tilakaratne, A., Director, Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies, 133/19, Nawala Road, Narahenpita, Colombo 05 Sri Lanka. refer to the article: ‘Dependent Co-origination: The Buddhist Approach to Reality’, http://www.beyondthenet.net/sl abs/articles/Dependent.pdf[15] quoted in [14], “If empty is not seen then reaching what has not been reached, the act of terminating suffering as well as the relinquishing of all defilements also will not be seen.” (Nagarjuna, XXIV: 38-39).
[17] Prabhupada A.C., Bhaktivedanta Swami, quoted in http://gitabase.com/eng/LTRS/1 976/2/76FE, letter to Sripad Madhava Das [Brahmachari name of Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja].
[18] P. Nagaraja Rao, The Schools of Vedanta, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavanm, Bombay, 1943, pp. 73.[19] ibid, 18.[20] ibid, 18.[21] ibid, 18, pp. 73-75.[22] ibid, 18, pp. 75-76.[23]ibid, 18, pp. 76.
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My take todayThe labels we give to Mind/Body/Universe are of course human constructs, the product of our collective consciousness as an activity of the material social brain of animals, the result of some 4 billion years of biological evolution.
This knowledge comes from the never completed process of real science research most consistent with an emergent materialist philosophy, rather than the citation of some sacred text with all the answers now and forever.Long live Materialist Neo-Darwinian Science and its endless development (e.g., epigenetics, niche construction)
David Schwartzman, biogeochemistProfessor EmeritusHoward UniversityAuthor of Life, Temperature and the Earth:the Self-Organizing Biosphere, 1999, 2002, Columbia University Press
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
My take todayMind / Body/ Universe are human constructsThere is only consciousness in which those constructs are conceived
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Chopra: No one has ever proved the existence of matter.Vimal: Did anybody has proved the existence of the consciousness-in-itself?
Kind regards,Rām----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
From: Deepak Chopra
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 6:44:33 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Matter is a concept an interpretation is sense perceptionsNo one has ever proved the existence of matterMatter is non material
It's made of nothing
My take todayThe labels we give to Mind/Body/Universe are of course human constructs, the product of our collective consciousness as an activity of the material social brain of animals, the result of some 4 billion years of biological evolution.This knowledge comes from the never completed process of real science research most consistent with an emergent materialist philosophy, rather than the citation of some sacred text with all the answers now and forever.
Long live Materialist Neo-Darwinian Science and its endless development (e.g., epigenetics, niche construction)
David Schwartzman, biogeochemistProfessor EmeritusHoward UniversityAuthor of Life, Temperature and the Earth:the Self-Organizing Biosphere, 1999, 2002, Columbia University Press
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
My take todayMind / Body/ Universe are human constructsThere is only consciousness in which those constructs are conceived
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[23] The section 4.0 contains some thoughts from ideas that were discussed by Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, PhD over Skype.
Dear Dr. Bhakti Vijnana Muni ji,
Thanks for your excellent critique, which has sharpened the extended Dual-Aspect Monism (eDAM, Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) framework
My responses to your critique are given in Section 3.6 (3.6.1 to 3.6.7) of (Vimal & Pandey-Vimal, 2011).
Your feedback will be highly appreciated.
Cheers!
Kindest regards,Ram17 Jan. 2017
------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Saturday, 14 January 2017 5:50 PM, "'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegrou ps.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Bhakti Vijnana Muni,
THANKS for your interest in the eDAM/Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita framework and providing excellent critique.
I am in the process of addressing your comments, and I will let you know as soon as it is completed.
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Kindest regards,Ram14 Jan. 2017
------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear RLP Vimal,
Namaste. In your extended dual aspect monism, i.e. eDAM, you have critiqued Visistaadvaita philosophy for its neglect of the non-theistic harmonization of Reality. You say, “We simply cannot ignore the contribution of science in our lives. [1]” You have tried to cater to the viewpoints of both the theists as well as atheists. For example, you say that theists can assume the dual aspect Brahman as God. Atheists can assume Brahman as dual aspect entity at fundamental level such as physicist’s vacuum, deep quantum potential or Bohm’s Implicate Order from where all universes (including human beings) emerge via co-evolution [2].
Your (RLP Vimal’s) concept of eDAM
As you have proposed a ‘modified Visistadvaita’ through your eDAM, the natural question to ask is why do you think, that the visistaadvaita philosophy needs a modification from eDAM and if indeed so then in what respect. The dual aspects that you in [1] refer to are the physical aspects (e.g neural networks in brain) and the mental aspects (e.g. subjective experiences). In your opinion among all philosophies in religion and science, this modified Visistadvaita proposed by you has the least number of problems. In this regard you have taken up the issues of inseparability as very important. For example you refer to your Dual-Aspect Monism, where mind and matter are the inseparable aspects of the same entity state [3].
In defining concepts of matter, you have pointed out to the distinctions among the concept of Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le’ from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept. In the former matter has a form and potentiality for experiences, and you have accepted this concept of matter within your theory of eDAM. Then you distinguish it from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept (that matter is made up of atoms and which is pursued in science) which has the implication that matter is non-experiential within this framework. As this is faced with the hard problem of consciousness, you do not accept this within eDAM [4].
Further with that background, in defining the concept of consciousness, you state to have used the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le’s concept of matter that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective (1pp) [5].
While concluding from Sankaracharya’s advaita philosophy that the fundamental Reality is consciousness, i.e. the mental entity, you have mentioned that the advaita system does not explain by any step by step process that how the matter is created from a non-material entity mind (Brahman). And therefore this constitutes a serious explanatory gap within the Sankara’s Advaita system. You have noted that this is the reverse of the explanatory gap found in materialism that mind can be created out of matter [6]. And so you have taken the cue from Buddha and Nagarjuna and followed a middle path which is your theory of Dual Aspect Monism [7]. Your dual-aspect monism proposes that there are varying degrees of dominance of aspects depending of the entity-level and context is the middle path. This means that ‘the concept of the varying degrees of the manifestation (appearance/strength) of aspects’ means that the degree of ‘the appearance and/or strength of aspects’ varies depending on the levels of entities [8]. At each level, the manifestation of aspects is through dependent co-origination [9] i.e., through co-evolution, adaptation, natural selection, co-development and sensorimotor tuning.
But it is clear from your paper that you do not accept the Reality of Brahman as fully independent Truth. Your dual aspect monism does not accept that God/ Brahman is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience, who can affect each one of us and hence we must pray to him [10]. To substantiate your position you have asked the question Who created God/Brahman? And you have stated that the usual answer that Brahman is eternal and hence non-causal, is considered unacceptable to many. And that is the reason I feel you have taken recourse to the principle of dependent co origination because it denies any central or supreme position to any particular entity.
Thus even though you think that visitadvaita is close to your dual aspect monism, there are major differences between Visistadvaita and eDAM. Therefore you consider that visistadvaita like other world religions suffers from a built in interaction substance dualism. For example you state that the soul separates from the body at the time of death [11]. The truth however is that visistadvaita is a consistent and elegant philosophy, well honored in India and now all over the world by different scholars. However your inability to appreciate its foundational consistency and beauty stems from your misunderstanding of the true concept of Brahman as explained in Sri Ramanuja’s system.
Thus in your framework of modified visistadvaita which is a result of your dual aspect monism, you think that the problem is resolved when we can think that the mental aspect of Brahman causes mind and the physical aspect causes matter. From this dual aspect monistic view you further conclude that all entities including us, fermions and bosons are all Brahman [12]. But that is surely not the philosophy of visistadvaita propounded by Sripad Ramanuja Acharya.
The Critique of Vimal’s Philosophy of eDAM
The main difference between Vimal and Ramanuja seems to be on the use of the concept of Dual Aspect by Vimal. Sripad Ramanuja’s Monism is established on the basis of the concept of visista. But Vimal’s monism is attempted on the basis of the idea of dual aspect. Moreover it appears that Vimal has chosen a middle path from that of Buddha and Nagarjuna [13], who are quite clearly non-Vedantic in their approach, and therefore non-theistic. Vimal’s idea of manifestation of objects is through the concept of dependent co-origination. As far as I know the concept of dependent co origination is also founded upon the Buddhist line of thought [14], where the origin is said to be empty or Void [15]. In Buddhist thought everything is changing and dependent. That is the character of reality explained in Buddhism. It was mainly used to target into the causes of suffering but it was also considered as applicable to everything that constitutes Reality. So this then within Buddhism provides the basis for the quest for solution to all problems which we are entangled with. Within this Bauddha Samanvaya (Harmonization) of dependent co-origination of everything there cannot be any centre occupying the supreme position. Therefore, in solving one’s own problems the question/problems of ‘others’ becomes very important, and we cannot totally forget the problems of others.
But In Vedanta clearly the origin is Brahman. Brahman is not an absolute emptiness. Brahman is purna, or Complete in itself. In the Vedantic thought the process of negation will not lead to voidism or absolute emptiness. When we negate something it does not produce a void. For example when a cow eats grass, the grass does not become annihilated. Rather grass which was as if existing for itself, now serves the purpose of the cow as its part and parcel through the process of digesting. So by eating the cow negates the being of the grass as existing for itself. Therefore everything in nature is posited as if it is existing for itself. But by the process of negation that independent positing of entities is being negated in various ways and forms by nature. In this way everything exists for some higher and higher purposes in Nature, in which everything is appearing and vanishing as transitory moments. Therefore Reality is dynamic and it is never fixed. Thus everything is being negated for a higher purpose than that which is for itself. When we come to negation of all such negations, we arrive at the purpose of Absolute, or the Brahman. Therefore Brahman is cause of all causes or that which constitutes the Ultimate purpose. Everything exists for the satisfaction of the Absolute. Sripad Ramanuja has quite clearly shown that only Brahman is independent and everything is dependent upon Him (Brahman). Brahman depends only upon Himself and there is no other cause that is outside of Him or external to Him. We cannot limit Brahman because if we try to limit Brahman, Brahman finds itself beyond its limit as well. Therefore if we say what is beyond Brahman, then the answer is Brahman itself. Therefore questions posed ‘like who created God (Brahman)?’ neglect the position of Brahman as the cause of all causes and the Absolute Truth. Brahman is not some finite entity that can be limited by some boundary. Hegel, the German philosopher summarized this beautifully by saying, “Reality is by itself and for itself.” But such cannot be said of the finite entities like Table, chairs or ordinary living entities. All causes ultimately are to be traced to be dependent on Brahman. But Brahman is by itself, or is the substantial truth of all reality. Thus the entities are not only inseparable but also they are all dependent on Brahman for their being and becoming. This is the major difference between Vedanta’s principle of Brahman as the Cause of all Causes (sarva karana karanam) and Buddhism’s principle of dependent co origination. This is also therefore not in line with Visistaadvaita philosophy when Vimal claims that the concept of dependent co- origination can solve the so called problems of Visistadvaita, merely because the aspects or entities are inseparable. If Visistadvaita is being modified in this way it entails a complete misunderstanding of the underlying principle of visistadvaita which the author (Vimal) should address.
Therefore my suspicion is that this term ‘dual aspect’ in Vimal’s philosophy also has some influence from the idea of dependent co-origination and neglects the position of Brahman as cause of all causes. The mind and brain are of course appear to be inseparable in the organic unity of life processes in nature as long as life continues. But in Vedanta we have the principle of reincarnation by which it is clearly established that the subtle form comprising of soul covered with the mental structure disentangles with the more gross elements – i.e. brain and body at the time of death. In fact we must ask by what means reincarnation takes place. In fact there are also living entities that do not possess any distinctive brain system. Yet they are also intelligent. For example the trees, single celled organisms etc. are all intelligent. We can understand these intelligent concepts of living organisms through the living process which can be written down as an algorithm in terms of the material elements like the atoms and molecules. But the source of this algorithm cannot be pinned down to these material elements. In biology the conventional concepts of Central dogma are for this reason found to be untenable. For example in Wikipedia entry about Robert Rosen, an American biologist, it is mentioned, “He concluded, based on examples such as this, that phenotype cannot always be directly attributed to genotype and that the chemically active aspect of a biologically active protein relies on more than the sequence of amino acids, from which it was constructed: there must be some other important factors at work, that he did not however attempt to specify or pin down. [16]” Additionally we must mention that the concept of internal teleology is quite clearly an inseparable part of such causal processes.
Regarding the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le concept of matter, it is quite true that they have not explained matter in the way of modern atomistic view of science. According to Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, “Matter is a symbol of undeveloped consciousness. [17]” Therefore this system can only be understood from the concept of the organic whole. But that does not mean that we can regard that matter can produce consciousness. We need to clearly study the logic of life processes to understand this. The category of acit potency or material energy is never the source of life in the Vedantic thought. Yet the acit potency is dependent category and an attribute in the philosophy of Ramanuja. So we cannot regard matter and mind as being merely dual aspect of the same entity. When there is death there is no more consciousness in the dead body. Neither does the residual dead cell act in any conscious manner. They just disintegrate according to the laws of entropy. Therefore this body and the life principle have no intrinsic relation to each other after death. But how matter is produced is an important question. As we can see when the life principle is present, the body of the organism develops and changes. We have already suggested that no one has done any precise experiment to ascertain whether the law of conservation of mass and energy in case of life is obeyed. According to the Vedantic thought there must be a discrepancy and this discrepancy can be experimentally determined. Therefore what is the problem to think that the whole world of material plane can come from the potencies of Original life, which is the theistic position of the major World Religions. Therefore the problem of Unity is solved through the axiomatic principle of Vedanta (i) Life comes from Life, and (ii) Matter comes from Life.
When you state that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective, it is certainly true that the brain mind system is intricately involved in the different expressions of phenomenal consciousness. Yet the brain cannot be the source of consciousness. Rather when life is present, it produces the inseparable brain mind system within the organic unity of the concept of species. As we know that every cell is sentient, we can only say that in the living process the different organs produce each other. Yet it is the life principle which is a higher and superior category in Vedanta, without which there will be no such process. It is this living entity which holds together the separated material energies in the life process. Hence the life process has a much deeper conceptual relation to Reality. Therefore the natural process of life is inconceivable within physics and chemistry. Chemistry never becomes life in nature.
Some Notes on Visista-advaita Philosophy of Sri Ramanuja
First let us try to understand something about the philosophy of Visistadvaita. This is a system of Philosophy given by Sripad Ramanujacharya and this critiqued the then and dominating thesis of the kevala advaita system of Adi Sankaracharya. The first point therefore should be to understand the distinction between advaita and kevala advaita. The advaita philosophy has been there in India from time immemorial. It did not begin with Sripad Adi Sankaracharya and neither did he coin the term advaita. Advaita means the non-dual truth. But Sankaracharya’s explanation of advaita is called kevala advaita or Monism. In this explanation the phenomenal reality was an unreality or illusion stemming from avidya or ignorance. Sankaracharya had dismissed plurality by focusing on avidya for establishing his explanation of advaita or non-dualism. But advaita did not always mean Monism in Indian Philosophical traditions. It is the Sankara’s advaita in which the term means monism and therefore it has been categorized not just as advaita but with a qualifier as kevala-advaita. Thus it was distinguished from the philosophy of Suddha Advaita by the line of teachers in Sripad Sridhar Swami’s theistic tradition and other vaishnava acharya’s to protect the real meaning of Advaita as was and is being taught in the theistic schools of India from the onslaught of the Sankara’s reductive philosophy of Monism, where all is reduced to One.
Sripad Ramanuja Acharya gave the concept of Organic Whole in his philosophy of Visitaadvaita. In this he has achieved the great reconciliation of the One with the Many. Sankara had concluded that the Many is illusory manifestations of the One due to the function of Maya or avidya (ignorance). And therefore Sankara had stressed on the Reality One and the illusion of the Many. Therefore Sankara’s philosophy is that of reductive idealism and he stresses only on the principle of identity that exists between the One and the Many based upon the principle of ignorance. He neglects or makes the distinction between one and many a product of illusion, giving distinctions no reality [18].
But Sripad Ramanuja Acharya has stressed that the principle of distinction is a reality. It is not merely a result of illusion as held in Sankara’s line of thinking. Sripad Ramanuja has stressed the reality of both Many as well as the One. The ‘many’ are not the illusory manifestations of the one but they are held in their inseparable relation of dependence on the One. In this way Sripad Ramanuja returned the atman or the soul back to the Vedantins, which was previously lost in the Brahman of Sankara’s kevala advaita system of thought [19].
Therefore matter, souls and Brahman are all real in Ramanuja. The world of matter and souls is treated as attributes of the Brahman. The technical Sanskrit term for attributes is visesanas. The first point is that Brahman is not merely an attributeless homogenous stuff of consciousness. Brahman is Supra Personality or the best of Personalities, or Adi Purusha or Purushottama. He is endowed with infinity of auspicious attributes. He is all knowing, all powerful, all merciful as well as the transcendent Supreme Being. The world of souls (cit) and the world of matter (acit) are regarded as His chief attributes (visesanas). And He is the fundamental Substance (visesya). From this view of the complex whole (called Vaisitya drstya), Brahman is One without a second. Only from this point of view is Ramanuja’s view Monistic, and therefore this kind of Monism is quite different from Sankara’s attributeless Monism. Therefore Ramanuja’s Monism is called visista Advaita. From the angle of vision of the attributes (visesanas), they are different from Brahman, but all time they are always dependent on Brahman and inseparable from Brahman. The distinction and plurality of the souls persists with their dependence on God. Their distinction does not go against their dependence on God. The Brahman of Ramanuja "is an organic unity in which, as in all living organisms one element predominates over and controls the rest. [20]”
The subordinate elements are termed visesanas and the predominant element visesya. Because the visesanas cannot exist by themselves separately, the complex whole (visista) in which they are included is described as a unity. Hence, the name of Ramanuja philosophy is Visistadvaita. Therefore Reality according to Ramanuja is not merely a bare identity as held in Sankara. Reality is an identity-in-difference and the difference is not unreal. The identity element holds the difference and makes for the unity and there is a coordination of identity and difference. In Ramanuja’s system the world of souls and matter are co eternal with God, but not external from Him. Matter or prakriti through pradhan and mahatattva comes from Brahman as one of its energies and is called bahiranga or external energy (appearing external or separate as Maya) thus it is an eternal potential but not intrinsic to Him as his antaranga or spiritual energy. The relation between matter, souls and God in Ramanuja’s system is called aprthaka siddhi. This relation is an eternal one and it maintains distinctions between entities that are in intimate and inseparable relation to each other. Therefore Brahman is the inner immortal ruler and this is based upon the concept of the indweller (antaryami). Moreover Brahman is not unknowable [21]. Ramanuja discovered the epistemological plane called adhoksaja in which such knowability becomes possible.
During the state of dissolution, the world of souls and matter remain in a subtle form within the Lord. This aspect of Lord is called karanavastha, or the causal state. In the effect stage, it is called karyavastha. In this stage the world of souls, get attached to the world of matter and are said to be born. In this way the effect is not something entirely different from the cause. The cause itself gets transformed onto effect and this is called parinamavada. Parinaama means change. So as soon as we ask does that mean God Himself changes into the world of matter and souls. And if so does that not taint Him as something defective. But Ramanuja avoids all these defects and still maintains the concept of change through the category called dharmabhuta jnana, or attributive knowledge. It is not that the Lord changes or the souls change. The Lord and the souls are of the nature of substantive knowledge or jnana. Besides this the Lord and souls have an attributive called dharmabhuta jnana. What changes is the attribute (visesana) called the dharmabhuta jnana, or the attributive knowledge and not the substantive jnana. This dharmabhuta jnana is substance as well as attribute. It is substance in the sense that it undergoes changes and produces effects which are called material cause. It is however not the inert matter. It is this dharmabhuta jnana which operates through the mental faculties and produces knowledge. Not only knowledge but also internal states like desires and aversion are also regarded as the transformation of this dharmabhuta jnana. As it is this attributive knowledge that changes there is no necessity of parinaamavada for God. Thus the change in the attribute does not taint or effect the Lord in anyway. Ramanuja is neither a follower parinaamavaada nor that of vivartavaada [22]. This point is also accepted and supported by Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura in his Bhagavad-Gita commentary where he has clearly mentioned that the Gaudiya philosophy does not adhere to Brahma-Parinaamavad. But that the Gaudiyas are the proponents of Shakti-parinaamavad. What is transformed is not the Brahman, but the potency. Therefore the cosmos is not directly a transformation of Brahman. Rather the cosmos is a transformation of shakti or potency, hence the name shakti-parinaamavaad. Thus for Ramanuja, Lord is the Supreme Reality and all others including the chit as well as the acit are dependent upon Him. Every word in the veda has for its plenary significance, the Lord. It is only in the secondary sense that the words of the veda refer to the things of the world, but in the deeper significance of the words are called Vedanta-vyutpatti and it always refers to Brahman or God [23].
The entire world of Reality according to Ramanuja can be categorized as dravyas (substance) and adravyas (attributes). Thus colour, sound, taste, etc. all come under the category of attributes and these go on to constitute prakriti. Potency is also an adravya or the attribute. Besides the attributes there are six substances (dravyas) which can be classified under the categories of material or non material. The non-material entities are (i) God, (ii) jiva, (iii) Nitya Vibhuti, (iv) dharmabhuta jnana. Time as experienced in the material plane and prakriti constitutes the material variety of substances. Prakriti which is comprised of three modes of material nature stops at the borderline of nitya-vibuti, which is transcendental nature (super prakriti) under the control of the Lord. Time is within Brahman for Ramanuja and space is derived from prakriti [23].
The predecessors of Ramanuja, like the alvars as well as the followers have always presented a theistic concept of Vedanta and explained the philosophy of love of God in their writings. To them, the Holy Ramanujaites, God is not merely a theoretical abstraction but a fact of the experience of the surrendered souls who have developed love of Godhead. Their main theme is the greatness of God and His glory as well as His presence in everything. They stress that the mercy of the Lord as unconditional and all comprehensive. Mercy is higher than Justice. Sripad Ramanuja Acharya was a great genius and a many sided scholar and the foremost of the visistadvaita dialecticians. According to Ramanuja knowledge always has a corresponding object. There is never an objectless cognition. Ramanuja also explained that the cognition of an attributeless object is a mere fiction. A non-qualified object can never be the object of cognition.
Conclusion
Vimal attempts a modification of Visistadvaita without considering many of the essential elements of the philosophy of Sri Ramanuja. Therefore the problems that are cited by him like the Ist pp, cannot be solved within modified visistaadvaita. The reason is that he relies more on the concept of dependent co origination. However the Brahman according to Vedanta is the janmady asya yatah – the source of all that be. The atheistic position has been scrutinized well by Ramanuja, especially when he faced the Buddhists philosophers of his time as well as the Sankarites and others. Therefore it is incorrect to dismiss visistadvaita simply by saying that it does not cater to a non-theistic harmonization of reality. No non-theistic harmonization has ever been achieved. The problems of consciousness are major question mark over such attempts. However the theistic position clearly outlines guidelines for ascertaining how matter can come from life. Therefore only the theistic position has the proper capacity to produce the harmonization that is necessary for a truly rational and comprehensive understanding of reality.
References
[1] Vimal, R.L.P., Vimal, M., U., P. Introducing extended Dual-Aspect Monism (Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) Framework in Religion: Prāṇa Pratiṣṭha, https://www.researchgate.net/p ublication/283243225, DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.1.4356.4249, October, 2015, pp. 2.
[2] ibid, 1.[3] ibid 1., pp. 3.[4] ibid., 3.[5] ibid 1., pp. 4.[6] ibid 1., pp. 8.[7] ibid 1., pp. 8.[8] ibid 1., pp. 12.[9] ibid 1., pp. 12.[10] ibid 1., pp. 9.[11] ibid 1., pp. 1, 9.[12] ibid 1., pp. 9.[13] ibid 1., pp. 8.[14] Tilakaratne, A., Director, Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies, 133/19, Nawala Road, Narahenpita, Colombo 05 Sri Lanka. refer to the article: ‘Dependent Co-origination: The Buddhist Approach to Reality’, http://www.beyondthenet.net/sl abs/articles/Dependent.pdf[15] quoted in [14], “If empty is not seen then reaching what has not been reached, the act of terminating suffering as well as the relinquishing of all defilements also will not be seen.” (Nagarjuna, XXIV: 38-39).
[17] Prabhupada A.C., Bhaktivedanta Swami, quoted in http://gitabase.com/eng/LTRS/1 976/2/76FE, letter to Sripad Madhava Das [Brahmachari name of Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja].
[18] P. Nagaraja Rao, The Schools of Vedanta, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavanm, Bombay, 1943, pp. 73.[19] ibid, 18.[20] ibid, 18.[21] ibid, 18, pp. 73-75.[22] ibid, 18, pp. 75-76.[23]ibid, 18, pp. 76.
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-[Deepak Chopra] on April 20, 2017 wrote:>What came first consciousness or theories about consciousness?
[S.P.] Let us call a spade a spade. By a "theory of consciousness" I suggest to mean an explanatory framework which is able to explain how the physical (sensory) signals become transformed into experience.
If a theory is not able to explain this, then it is not a theory of consciousness.
So, may I as Deepak to name, at least, one theory of consciousness known for him? Who is its author? If he will not name, at least, one theory, then his question should be treated as senseless.
Thanks in advance,Serge Patlavskiy
From: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
What came first consciousness or science ?What came first consciousness or theories about consciousness ?
Deepak Chopra MD
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[23] The section 4.0 contains some thoughts from ideas that were discussed by Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, PhD over Skype.
Dear Dr. Bhakti Vijnana Muni ji,
Thanks for your excellent critique, which has sharpened the extended Dual-Aspect Monism (eDAM, Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) framework
My responses to your critique are given in Section 3.6 (3.6.1 to 3.6.7) of (Vimal & Pandey-Vimal, 2011).
Your feedback will be highly appreciated.
Cheers!
Kindest regards,Ram17 Jan. 2017
----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_VimalResearched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Saturday, 14 January 2017 5:50 PM, "'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Bhakti Vijnana Muni,
THANKS for your interest in the eDAM/Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita framework and providing excellent critique.
I am in the process of addressing your comments, and I will let you know as soon as it is completed.
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Kindest regards,Ram14 Jan. 2017
----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_VimalResearched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear RLP Vimal,
Namaste. In your extended dual aspect monism, i.e. eDAM, you have critiqued Visistaadvaita philosophy for its neglect of the non-theistic harmonization of Reality. You say, “We simply cannot ignore the contribution of science in our lives. [1]” You have tried to cater to the viewpoints of both the theists as well as atheists. For example, you say that theists can assume the dual aspect Brahman as God. Atheists can assume Brahman as dual aspect entity at fundamental level such as physicist’s vacuum, deep quantum potential or Bohm’s Implicate Order from where all universes (including human beings) emerge via co-evolution [2].
Your (RLP Vimal’s) concept of eDAM
As you have proposed a ‘modified Visistadvaita’ through your eDAM, the natural question to ask is why do you think, that the visistaadvaita philosophy needs a modification from eDAM and if indeed so then in what respect. The dual aspects that you in [1] refer to are the physical aspects (e.g neural networks in brain) and the mental aspects (e.g. subjective experiences). In your opinion among all philosophies in religion and science, this modified Visistadvaita proposed by you has the least number of problems. In this regard you have taken up the issues of inseparability as very important. For example you refer to your Dual-Aspect Monism, where mind and matter are the inseparable aspects of the same entity state [3].
In defining concepts of matter, you have pointed out to the distinctions among the concept of Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristotle’ from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept. In the former matter has a form and potentiality for experiences, and you have accepted this concept of matter within your theory of eDAM. Then you distinguish it from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept (that matter is made up of atoms and which is pursued in science) which has the implication that matter is non-experiential within this framework. As this is faced with the hard problem of consciousness, you do not accept this within eDAM [4].
Further with that background, in defining the concept of consciousness, you state to have used the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristotle’s concept of matter that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective (1pp) [5].
While concluding from Sankaracharya’s advaita philosophy that the fundamental Reality is consciousness, i.e. the mental entity, you have mentioned that the advaita system does not explain by any step by step process that how the matter is created from a non-material entity mind (Brahman). And therefore this constitutes a serious explanatory gap within the Sankara’s Advaita system. You have noted that this is the reverse of the explanatory gap found in materialism that mind can be created out of matter [6]. And so you have taken the cue from Buddha and Nagarjuna and followed a middle path which is your theory of Dual Aspect Monism [7]. Your dual-aspect monism proposes that there are varying degrees of dominance of aspects depending of the entity-level and context is the middle path. This means that ‘the concept of the varying degrees of the manifestation (appearance/strength) of aspects’ means that the degree of ‘the appearance and/or strength of aspects’ varies depending on the levels of entities [8]. At each level, the manifestation of aspects is through dependent co-origination [9] i.e., through co-evolution, adaptation, natural selection, co-development and sensorimotor tuning.
But it is clear from your paper that you do not accept the Reality of Brahman as fully independent Truth. Your dual aspect monism does not accept that God/ Brahman is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience, who can affect each one of us and hence we must pray to him [10]. To substantiate your position you have asked the question Who created God/Brahman? And you have stated that the usual answer that Brahman is eternal and hence non-causal, is considered unacceptable to many. And that is the reason I feel you have taken recourse to the principle of dependent co origination because it denies any central or supreme position to any particular entity.
Thus even though you think that visitadvaita is close to your dual aspect monism, there are major differences between Visistadvaita and eDAM. Therefore you consider that visistadvaita like other world religions suffers from a built in interaction substance dualism. For example you state that the soul separates from the body at the time of death [11]. The truth however is that visistadvaita is a consistent and elegant philosophy, well honored in India and now all over the world by different scholars. However your inability to appreciate its foundational consistency and beauty stems from your misunderstanding of the true concept of Brahman as explained in Sri Ramanuja’s system.
Thus in your framework of modified visistadvaita which is a result of your dual aspect monism, you think that the problem is resolved when we can think that the mental aspect of Brahman causes mind and the physical aspect causes matter. From this dual aspect monistic view you further conclude that all entities including us, fermions and bosons are all Brahman [12]. But that is surely not the philosophy of visistadvaita propounded by Sripad Ramanuja Acharya.
The Critique of Vimal’s Philosophy of eDAM
The main difference between Vimal and Ramanuja seems to be on the use of the concept of Dual Aspect by Vimal. Sripad Ramanuja’s Monism is established on the basis of the concept of visista. But Vimal’s monism is attempted on the basis of the idea of dual aspect. Moreover it appears that Vimal has chosen a middle path from that of Buddha and Nagarjuna [13], who are quite clearly non-Vedantic in their approach, and therefore non-theistic. Vimal’s idea of manifestation of objects is through the concept of dependent co-origination. As far as I know the concept of dependent co origination is also founded upon the Buddhist line of thought [14], where the origin is said to be empty or Void [15]. In Buddhist thought everything is changing and dependent. That is the character of reality explained in Buddhism. It was mainly used to target into the causes of suffering but it was also considered as applicable to everything that constitutes Reality. So this then within Buddhism provides the basis for the quest for solution to all problems which we are entangled with. Within this Bauddha Samanvaya (Harmonization) of dependent co-origination of everything there cannot be any centre occupying the supreme position. Therefore, in solving one’s own problems the question/problems of ‘others’ becomes very important, and we cannot totally forget the problems of others.
But In Vedanta clearly the origin is Brahman. Brahman is not an absolute emptiness. Brahman is purna, or Complete in itself. In the Vedantic thought the process of negation will not lead to voidism or absolute emptiness. When we negate something it does not produce a void. For example when a cow eats grass, the grass does not become annihilated. Rather grass which was as if existing for itself, now serves the purpose of the cow as its part and parcel through the process of digesting. So by eating the cow negates the being of the grass as existing for itself. Therefore everything in nature is posited as if it is existing for itself. But by the process of negation that independent positing of entities is being negated in various ways and forms by nature. In this way everything exists for some higher and higher purposes in Nature, in which everything is appearing and vanishing as transitory moments. Therefore Reality is dynamic and it is never fixed. Thus everything is being negated for a higher purpose than that which is for itself. When we come to negation of all such negations, we arrive at the purpose of Absolute, or the Brahman. Therefore Brahman is cause of all causes or that which constitutes the Ultimate purpose. Everything exists for the satisfaction of the Absolute. Sripad Ramanuja has quite clearly shown that only Brahman is independent and everything is dependent upon Him (Brahman). Brahman depends only upon Himself and there is no other cause that is outside of Him or external to Him. We cannot limit Brahman because if we try to limit Brahman, Brahman finds itself beyond its limit as well. Therefore if we say what is beyond Brahman, then the answer is Brahman itself. Therefore questions posed ‘like who created God (Brahman)?’ neglect the position of Brahman as the cause of all causes and the Absolute Truth. Brahman is not some finite entity that can be limited by some boundary. Hegel, the German philosopher summarized this beautifully by saying, “Reality is by itself and for itself.” But such cannot be said of the finite entities like Table, chairs or ordinary living entities. All causes ultimately are to be traced to be dependent on Brahman. But Brahman is by itself, or is the substantial truth of all reality. Thus the entities are not only inseparable but also they are all dependent on Brahman for their being and becoming. This is the major difference between Vedanta’s principle of Brahman as the Cause of all Causes (sarva karana karanam) and Buddhism’s principle of dependent co origination. This is also therefore not in line with Visistaadvaita philosophy when Vimal claims that the concept of dependent co- origination can solve the so called problems of Visistadvaita, merely because the aspects or entities are inseparable. If Visistadvaita is being modified in this way it entails a complete misunderstanding of the underlying principle of visistadvaita which the author (Vimal) should address.
Therefore my suspicion is that this term ‘dual aspect’ in Vimal’s philosophy also has some influence from the idea of dependent co-origination and neglects the position of Brahman as cause of all causes. The mind and brain are of course appear to be inseparable in the organic unity of life processes in nature as long as life continues. But in Vedanta we have the principle of reincarnation by which it is clearly established that the subtle form comprising of soul covered with the mental structure disentangles with the more gross elements – i.e. brain and body at the time of death. In fact we must ask by what means reincarnation takes place. In fact there are also living entities that do not possess any distinctive brain system. Yet they are also intelligent. For example the trees, single celled organisms etc. are all intelligent. We can understand these intelligent concepts of living organisms through the living process which can be written down as an algorithm in terms of the material elements like the atoms and molecules. But the source of this algorithm cannot be pinned down to these material elements. In biology the conventional concepts of Central dogma are for this reason found to be untenable. For example in Wikipedia entry about Robert Rosen, an American biologist, it is mentioned, “He concluded, based on examples such as this, that phenotype cannot always be directly attributed to genotype and that the chemically active aspect of a biologically active protein relies on more than the sequence of amino acids, from which it was constructed: there must be some other important factors at work, that he did not however attempt to specify or pin down. [16]” Additionally we must mention that the concept of internal teleology is quite clearly an inseparable part of such causal processes.
Regarding the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristotle concept of matter, it is quite true that they have not explained matter in the way of modern atomistic view of science. According to Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, “Matter is a symbol of undeveloped consciousness. [17]” Therefore this system can only be understood from the concept of the organic whole. But that does not mean that we can regard that matter can produce consciousness. We need to clearly study the logic of life processes to understand this. The category of acit potency or material energy is never the source of life in the Vedantic thought. Yet the acit potency is dependent category and an attribute in the philosophy of Ramanuja. So we cannot regard matter and mind as being merely dual aspect of the same entity. When there is death there is no more consciousness in the dead body. Neither does the residual dead cell act in any conscious manner. They just disintegrate according to the laws of entropy. Therefore this body and the life principle have no intrinsic relation to each other after death. But how matter is produced is an important question. As we can see when the life principle is present, the body of the organism develops and changes. We have already suggested that no one has done any precise experiment to ascertain whether the law of conservation of mass and energy in case of life is obeyed. According to the Vedantic thought there must be a discrepancy and this discrepancy can be experimentally determined. Therefore what is the problem to think that the whole world of material plane can come from the potencies of Original life, which is the theistic position of the major World Religions. Therefore the problem of Unity is solved through the axiomatic principle of Vedanta (i) Life comes from Life, and (ii) Matter comes from Life.
When you state that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective, it is certainly true that the brain mind system is intricately involved in the different expressions of phenomenal consciousness. Yet the brain cannot be the source of consciousness. Rather when life is present, it produces the inseparable brain mind system within the organic unity of the concept of species. As we know that every cell is sentient, we can only say that in the living process the different organs produce each other. Yet it is the life principle which is a higher and superior category in Vedanta, without which there will be no such process. It is this living entity which holds together the separated material energies in the life process. Hence the life process has a much deeper conceptual relation to Reality. Therefore the natural process of life is inconceivable within physics and chemistry. Chemistry never becomes life in nature.
Some Notes on Visista-advaita Philosophy of Sri Ramanuja
First let us try to understand something about the philosophy of Visistadvaita. This is a system of Philosophy given by Sripad Ramanujacharya and this critiqued the then and dominating thesis of the kevala advaita system of Adi Sankaracharya. The first point therefore should be to understand the distinction between advaita and kevala advaita. The advaita philosophy has been there in India from time immemorial. It did not begin with Sripad Adi Sankaracharya and neither did he coin the term advaita. Advaita means the non-dual truth. But Sankaracharya’s explanation of advaita is called kevala advaita or Monism. In this explanation the phenomenal reality was an unreality or illusion stemming from avidya or ignorance. Sankaracharya had dismissed plurality by focusing on avidya for establishing his explanation of advaita or non-dualism. But advaita did not always mean Monism in Indian Philosophical traditions. It is the Sankara’s advaita in which the term means monism and therefore it has been categorized not just as advaita but with a qualifier as kevala-advaita. Thus it was distinguished from the philosophy of Suddha Advaita by the line of teachers in Sripad Sridhar Swami’s theistic tradition and other vaishnava acharya’s to protect the real meaning of Advaita as was and is being taught in the theistic schools of India from the onslaught of the Sankara’s reductive philosophy of Monism, where all is reduced to One.
Sripad Ramanuja Acharya gave the concept of Organic Whole in his philosophy of Visitaadvaita. In this he has achieved the great reconciliation of the One with the Many. Sankara had concluded that the Many is illusory manifestations of the One due to the function of Maya or avidya (ignorance). And therefore Sankara had stressed on the Reality One and the illusion of the Many. Therefore Sankara’s philosophy is that of reductive idealism and he stresses only on the principle of identity that exists between the One and the Many based upon the principle of ignorance. He neglects or makes the distinction between one and many a product of illusion, giving distinctions no reality [18].
But Sripad Ramanuja Acharya has stressed that the principle of distinction is a reality. It is not merely a result of illusion as held in Sankara’s line of thinking. Sripad Ramanuja has stressed the reality of both Many as well as the One. The ‘many’ are not the illusory manifestations of the one but they are held in their inseparable relation of dependence on the One. In this way Sripad Ramanuja returned the atman or the soul back to the Vedantins, which was previously lost in the Brahman of Sankara’s kevala advaita system of thought [19].
Therefore matter, souls and Brahman are all real in Ramanuja. The world of matter and souls is treated as attributes of the Brahman. The technical Sanskrit term for attributes is visesanas. The first point is that Brahman is not merely an attributeless homogenous stuff of consciousness. Brahman is Supra Personality or the best of Personalities, or Adi Purusha or Purushottama. He is endowed with infinity of auspicious attributes. He is all knowing, all powerful, all merciful as well as the transcendent Supreme Being. The world of souls (cit) and the world of matter (acit) are regarded as His chief attributes (visesanas). And He is the fundamental Substance (visesya). From this view of the complex whole (called Vaisitya drstya), Brahman is One without a second. Only from this point of view is Ramanuja’s view Monistic, and therefore this kind of Monism is quite different from Sankara’s attributeless Monism. Therefore Ramanuja’s Monism is called visista Advaita. From the angle of vision of the attributes (visesanas), they are different from Brahman, but all time they are always dependent on Brahman and inseparable from Brahman. The distinction and plurality of the souls persists with their dependence on God. Their distinction does not go against their dependence on God. The Brahman of Ramanuja "is an organic unity in which, as in all living organisms one element predominates over and controls the rest. [20]”
The subordinate elements are termed visesanas and the predominant element visesya. Because the visesanas cannot exist by themselves separately, the complex whole (visista) in which they are included is described as a unity. Hence, the name of Ramanuja philosophy is Visistadvaita. Therefore Reality according to Ramanuja is not merely a bare identity as held in Sankara. Reality is an identity-in-difference and the difference is not unreal. The identity element holds the difference and makes for the unity and there is a coordination of identity and difference. In Ramanuja’s system the world of souls and matter are co eternal with God, but not external from Him. Matter or prakriti through pradhan and mahatattva comes from Brahman as one of its energies and is called bahiranga or external energy (appearing external or separate as Maya) thus it is an eternal potential but not intrinsic to Him as his antaranga or spiritual energy. The relation between matter, souls and God in Ramanuja’s system is called aprthaka siddhi. This relation is an eternal one and it maintains distinctions between entities that are in intimate and inseparable relation to each other. Therefore Brahman is the inner immortal ruler and this is based upon the concept of the indweller (antaryami). Moreover Brahman is not unknowable [21]. Ramanuja discovered the epistemological plane called adhoksaja in which such knowability becomes possible.
During the state of dissolution, the world of souls and matter remain in a subtle form within the Lord. This aspect of Lord is called karanavastha, or the causal state. In the effect stage, it is called karyavastha. In this stage the world of souls, get attached to the world of matter and are said to be born. In this way the effect is not something entirely different from the cause. The cause itself gets transformed onto effect and this is called parinamavada. Parinaama means change. So as soon as we ask does that mean God Himself changes into the world of matter and souls. And if so does that not taint Him as something defective. But Ramanuja avoids all these defects and still maintains the concept of change through the category called dharmabhuta jnana, or attributive knowledge. It is not that the Lord changes or the souls change. The Lord and the souls are of the nature of substantive knowledge or jnana. Besides this the Lord and souls have an attributive called dharmabhuta jnana. What changes is the attribute (visesana) called the dharmabhuta jnana, or the attributive knowledge and not the substantive jnana. This dharmabhuta jnana is substance as well as attribute. It is substance in the sense that it undergoes changes and produces effects which are called material cause. It is however not the inert matter. It is this dharmabhuta jnana which operates through the mental faculties and produces knowledge. Not only knowledge but also internal states like desires and aversion are also regarded as the transformation of this dharmabhuta jnana. As it is this attributive knowledge that changes there is no necessity of parinaamavada for God. Thus the change in the attribute does not taint or effect the Lord in anyway. Ramanuja is neither a follower parinaamavaada nor that of vivartavaada [22]. This point is also accepted and supported by Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura in his Bhagavad-Gita commentary where he has clearly mentioned that the Gaudiya philosophy does not adhere to Brahma-Parinaamavad. But that the Gaudiyas are the proponents of Shakti-parinaamavad. What is transformed is not the Brahman, but the potency. Therefore the cosmos is not directly a transformation of Brahman. Rather the cosmos is a transformation of shakti or potency, hence the name shakti-parinaamavaad. Thus for Ramanuja, Lord is the Supreme Reality and all others including the chit as well as the acit are dependent upon Him. Every word in the veda has for its plenary significance, the Lord. It is only in the secondary sense that the words of the veda refer to the things of the world, but in the deeper significance of the words are called Vedanta-vyutpatti and it always refers to Brahman or God [23].
The entire world of Reality according to Ramanuja can be categorized as dravyas (substance) and adravyas (attributes). Thus colour, sound, taste, etc. all come under the category of attributes and these go on to constitute prakriti. Potency is also an adravya or the attribute. Besides the attributes there are six substances (dravyas) which can be classified under the categories of material or non material. The non-material entities are (i) God, (ii) jiva, (iii) Nitya Vibhuti, (iv) dharmabhuta jnana. Time as experienced in the material plane and prakriti constitutes the material variety of substances. Prakriti which is comprised of three modes of material nature stops at the borderline of nitya-vibuti, which is transcendental nature (super prakriti) under the control of the Lord. Time is within Brahman for Ramanuja and space is derived from prakriti [23].
The predecessors of Ramanuja, like the alvars as well as the followers have always presented a theistic concept of Vedanta and explained the philosophy of love of God in their writings. To them, the Holy Ramanujaites, God is not merely a theoretical abstraction but a fact of the experience of the surrendered souls who have developed love of Godhead. Their main theme is the greatness of God and His glory as well as His presence in everything. They stress that the mercy of the Lord as unconditional and all comprehensive. Mercy is higher than Justice. Sripad Ramanuja Acharya was a great genius and a many sided scholar and the foremost of the visistadvaita dialecticians. According to Ramanuja knowledge always has a corresponding object. There is never an objectless cognition. Ramanuja also explained that the cognition of an attributeless object is a mere fiction. A non-qualified object can never be the object of cognition.
Conclusion
Vimal attempts a modification of Visistadvaita without considering many of the essential elements of the philosophy of Sri Ramanuja. Therefore the problems that are cited by him like the Ist pp, cannot be solved within modified visistaadvaita. The reason is that he relies more on the concept of dependent co origination. However the Brahman according to Vedanta is the janmady asya yatah – the source of all that be. The atheistic position has been scrutinized well by Ramanuja, especially when he faced the Buddhists philosophers of his time as well as the Sankarites and others. Therefore it is incorrect to dismiss visistadvaita simply by saying that it does not cater to a non-theistic harmonization of reality. No non-theistic harmonization has ever been achieved. The problems of consciousness are major question mark over such attempts. However the theistic position clearly outlines guidelines for ascertaining how matter can come from life. Therefore only the theistic position has the proper capacity to produce the harmonization that is necessary for a truly rational and comprehensive understanding of reality.
References
[1] Vimal, R.L.P., Vimal, M., U., P. Introducing extended Dual-Aspect Monism (Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) Framework in Religion: Prāṇa Pratiṣṭha, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283243225, DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.1.4356.4249, October, 2015, pp. 2.
[2] ibid, 1.[3] ibid 1., pp. 3.[4] ibid., 3.[5] ibid 1., pp. 4.[6] ibid 1., pp. 8.[7] ibid 1., pp. 8.[8] ibid 1., pp. 12.[9] ibid 1., pp. 12.[10] ibid 1., pp. 9.[11] ibid 1., pp. 1, 9.[12] ibid 1., pp. 9.[13] ibid 1., pp. 8.[14] Tilakaratne, A., Director, Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies, 133/19, Nawala Road, Narahenpita, Colombo 05 Sri Lanka. refer to the article: ‘Dependent Co-origination: The Buddhist Approach to Reality’, http://www.beyondthenet.net/slabs/articles/Dependent.pdf[15] quoted in [14], “If empty is not seen then reaching what has not been reached, the act of terminating suffering as well as the relinquishing of all defilements also will not be seen.” (Nagarjuna, XXIV: 38-39).
[17] Prabhupada A.C., Bhaktivedanta Swami, quoted in http://gitabase.com/eng/LTRS/1976/2/76FE, letter to Sripad Madhava Das [Brahmachari name of Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja].
[18] P. Nagaraja Rao, The Schools of Vedanta, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavanm, Bombay, 1943, pp. 73.[19] ibid, 18.[20] ibid, 18.[21] ibid, 18, pp. 73-75.[22] ibid, 18, pp. 75-76.[23]ibid, 18, pp. 76.
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Dear Serge
In case Deepak can't answer your very reasonable challenge, let me draw your attention to my theory of consciousness (Position Selecting Interactionism) because it is a theory that does fulfill your criteria.
It really does provide an explanatory framework that scientifically explains how the physical sensory signals became transformed into experience. And it does this without invoking any functionalism. Moreover, this theory appears to be testable. Unfortunately Deepak may not have heard of it yet as it has so far only been published in my book THE BLIND MINDMAKER which has only been available on Amazon since Christmas.
Best wishes,
Colin
C. S. Morrison, author of THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
Dear Ram,I asked the same question once before. Of course, matter is not made of nothing because Deepak himself repeatedly says that matter is modulation of consciousness.I justify his statements "Matter is a concept an interpretation is sense perceptions" and "Matter is non material" as follows:
In today's quantum mechanics, all matter (some of which is perceived directly by senses and called classical) is made up of quantum particles. A quantum particle is said to be a packet of de Broglie phase waves, each of which is supposed to have a speed greater than that of light in vacuum. Thus the phase wave is a mathematical abstraction, it is non-material in that you cannot perceive it by senses. So, one may say all matter is made of ideas.
Syamala
From: "'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Chopra: No one has ever proved the existence of matter.
Vimal: Did anybody has proved the existence of the consciousness-in-itself?
Kind regards,Rām
----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Matter is a concept an interpretation is sense perceptionsNo one has ever proved the existence of matterMatter is non material
It's made of nothing
[23] The section 4.0 contains some thoughts from ideas that were discussed by Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, PhD over Skype.
Dear Dr. Bhakti Vijnana Muni ji,
Thanks for your excellent critique, which has sharpened the extended Dual-Aspect Monism (eDAM, Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) framework
My responses to your critique are given in Section 3.6 (3.6.1 to 3.6.7) of (Vimal & Pandey-Vimal, 2011).
Your feedback will be highly appreciated.
Cheers!
Kindest regards,Ram17 Jan. 2017
------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/p rofile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Saturday, 14 January 2017 5:50 PM, "'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegrou ps.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Bhakti Vijnana Muni,
THANKS for your interest in the eDAM/Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita framework and providing excellent critique.
I am in the process of addressing your comments, and I will let you know as soon as it is completed.
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Kindest regards,Ram14 Jan. 2017
------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 263 5028; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
https://www.researchgate.net/p rofile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear RLP Vimal,
Namaste. In your extended dual aspect monism, i.e. eDAM, you have critiqued Visistaadvaita philosophy for its neglect of the non-theistic harmonization of Reality. You say, “We simply cannot ignore the contribution of science in our lives. [1]” You have tried to cater to the viewpoints of both the theists as well as atheists. For example, you say that theists can assume the dual aspect Brahman as God. Atheists can assume Brahman as dual aspect entity at fundamental level such as physicist’s vacuum, deep quantum potential or Bohm’s Implicate Order from where all universes (including human beings) emerge via co-evolution [2].
Your (RLP Vimal’s) concept of eDAM
As you have proposed a ‘modified Visistadvaita’ through your eDAM, the natural question to ask is why do you think, that the visistaadvaita philosophy needs a modification from eDAM and if indeed so then in what respect. The dual aspects that you in [1] refer to are the physical aspects (e.g neural networks in brain) and the mental aspects (e.g. subjective experiences). In your opinion among all philosophies in religion and science, this modified Visistadvaita proposed by you has the least number of problems. In this regard you have taken up the issues of inseparability as very important. For example you refer to your Dual-Aspect Monism, where mind and matter are the inseparable aspects of the same entity state [3].
In defining concepts of matter, you have pointed out to the distinctions among the concept of Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le’ from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept. In the former matter has a form and potentiality for experiences, and you have accepted this concept of matter within your theory of eDAM. Then you distinguish it from Kanaada-Democritus’ concept (that matter is made up of atoms and which is pursued in science) which has the implication that matter is non-experiential within this framework. As this is faced with the hard problem of consciousness, you do not accept this within eDAM [4].
Further with that background, in defining the concept of consciousness, you state to have used the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le’s concept of matter that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective (1pp) [5].
While concluding from Sankaracharya’s advaita philosophy that the fundamental Reality is consciousness, i.e. the mental entity, you have mentioned that the advaita system does not explain by any step by step process that how the matter is created from a non-material entity mind (Brahman). And therefore this constitutes a serious explanatory gap within the Sankara’s Advaita system. You have noted that this is the reverse of the explanatory gap found in materialism that mind can be created out of matter [6]. And so you have taken the cue from Buddha and Nagarjuna and followed a middle path which is your theory of Dual Aspect Monism [7]. Your dual-aspect monism proposes that there are varying degrees of dominance of aspects depending of the entity-level and context is the middle path. This means that ‘the concept of the varying degrees of the manifestation (appearance/strength) of aspects’ means that the degree of ‘the appearance and/or strength of aspects’ varies depending on the levels of entities [8]. At each level, the manifestation of aspects is through dependent co-origination [9] i.e., through co-evolution, adaptation, natural selection, co-development and sensorimotor tuning.
But it is clear from your paper that you do not accept the Reality of Brahman as fully independent Truth. Your dual aspect monism does not accept that God/ Brahman is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience, who can affect each one of us and hence we must pray to him [10]. To substantiate your position you have asked the question Who created God/Brahman? And you have stated that the usual answer that Brahman is eternal and hence non-causal, is considered unacceptable to many. And that is the reason I feel you have taken recourse to the principle of dependent co origination because it denies any central or supreme position to any particular entity.
Thus even though you think that visitadvaita is close to your dual aspect monism, there are major differences between Visistadvaita and eDAM. Therefore you consider that visistadvaita like other world religions suffers from a built in interaction substance dualism. For example you state that the soul separates from the body at the time of death [11]. The truth however is that visistadvaita is a consistent and elegant philosophy, well honored in India and now all over the world by different scholars. However your inability to appreciate its foundational consistency and beauty stems from your misunderstanding of the true concept of Brahman as explained in Sri Ramanuja’s system.
Thus in your framework of modified visistadvaita which is a result of your dual aspect monism, you think that the problem is resolved when we can think that the mental aspect of Brahman causes mind and the physical aspect causes matter. From this dual aspect monistic view you further conclude that all entities including us, fermions and bosons are all Brahman [12]. But that is surely not the philosophy of visistadvaita propounded by Sripad Ramanuja Acharya.
The Critique of Vimal’s Philosophy of eDAM
The main difference between Vimal and Ramanuja seems to be on the use of the concept of Dual Aspect by Vimal. Sripad Ramanuja’s Monism is established on the basis of the concept of visista. But Vimal’s monism is attempted on the basis of the idea of dual aspect. Moreover it appears that Vimal has chosen a middle path from that of Buddha and Nagarjuna [13], who are quite clearly non-Vedantic in their approach, and therefore non-theistic. Vimal’s idea of manifestation of objects is through the concept of dependent co-origination. As far as I know the concept of dependent co origination is also founded upon the Buddhist line of thought [14], where the origin is said to be empty or Void [15]. In Buddhist thought everything is changing and dependent. That is the character of reality explained in Buddhism. It was mainly used to target into the causes of suffering but it was also considered as applicable to everything that constitutes Reality. So this then within Buddhism provides the basis for the quest for solution to all problems which we are entangled with. Within this Bauddha Samanvaya (Harmonization) of dependent co-origination of everything there cannot be any centre occupying the supreme position. Therefore, in solving one’s own problems the question/problems of ‘others’ becomes very important, and we cannot totally forget the problems of others.
But In Vedanta clearly the origin is Brahman. Brahman is not an absolute emptiness. Brahman is purna, or Complete in itself. In the Vedantic thought the process of negation will not lead to voidism or absolute emptiness. When we negate something it does not produce a void. For example when a cow eats grass, the grass does not become annihilated. Rather grass which was as if existing for itself, now serves the purpose of the cow as its part and parcel through the process of digesting. So by eating the cow negates the being of the grass as existing for itself. Therefore everything in nature is posited as if it is existing for itself. But by the process of negation that independent positing of entities is being negated in various ways and forms by nature. In this way everything exists for some higher and higher purposes in Nature, in which everything is appearing and vanishing as transitory moments. Therefore Reality is dynamic and it is never fixed. Thus everything is being negated for a higher purpose than that which is for itself. When we come to negation of all such negations, we arrive at the purpose of Absolute, or the Brahman. Therefore Brahman is cause of all causes or that which constitutes the Ultimate purpose. Everything exists for the satisfaction of the Absolute. Sripad Ramanuja has quite clearly shown that only Brahman is independent and everything is dependent upon Him (Brahman). Brahman depends only upon Himself and there is no other cause that is outside of Him or external to Him. We cannot limit Brahman because if we try to limit Brahman, Brahman finds itself beyond its limit as well. Therefore if we say what is beyond Brahman, then the answer is Brahman itself. Therefore questions posed ‘like who created God (Brahman)?’ neglect the position of Brahman as the cause of all causes and the Absolute Truth. Brahman is not some finite entity that can be limited by some boundary. Hegel, the German philosopher summarized this beautifully by saying, “Reality is by itself and for itself.” But such cannot be said of the finite entities like Table, chairs or ordinary living entities. All causes ultimately are to be traced to be dependent on Brahman. But Brahman is by itself, or is the substantial truth of all reality. Thus the entities are not only inseparable but also they are all dependent on Brahman for their being and becoming. This is the major difference between Vedanta’s principle of Brahman as the Cause of all Causes (sarva karana karanam) and Buddhism’s principle of dependent co origination. This is also therefore not in line with Visistaadvaita philosophy when Vimal claims that the concept of dependent co- origination can solve the so called problems of Visistadvaita, merely because the aspects or entities are inseparable. If Visistadvaita is being modified in this way it entails a complete misunderstanding of the underlying principle of visistadvaita which the author (Vimal) should address.
Therefore my suspicion is that this term ‘dual aspect’ in Vimal’s philosophy also has some influence from the idea of dependent co-origination and neglects the position of Brahman as cause of all causes. The mind and brain are of course appear to be inseparable in the organic unity of life processes in nature as long as life continues. But in Vedanta we have the principle of reincarnation by which it is clearly established that the subtle form comprising of soul covered with the mental structure disentangles with the more gross elements – i.e. brain and body at the time of death. In fact we must ask by what means reincarnation takes place. In fact there are also living entities that do not possess any distinctive brain system. Yet they are also intelligent. For example the trees, single celled organisms etc. are all intelligent. We can understand these intelligent concepts of living organisms through the living process which can be written down as an algorithm in terms of the material elements like the atoms and molecules. But the source of this algorithm cannot be pinned down to these material elements. In biology the conventional concepts of Central dogma are for this reason found to be untenable. For example in Wikipedia entry about Robert Rosen, an American biologist, it is mentioned, “He concluded, based on examples such as this, that phenotype cannot always be directly attributed to genotype and that the chemically active aspect of a biologically active protein relies on more than the sequence of amino acids, from which it was constructed: there must be some other important factors at work, that he did not however attempt to specify or pin down. [16]” Additionally we must mention that the concept of internal teleology is quite clearly an inseparable part of such causal processes.
Regarding the Yajñavalkya-Badarayana-Aristot le concept of matter, it is quite true that they have not explained matter in the way of modern atomistic view of science. According to Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, “Matter is a symbol of undeveloped consciousness. [17]” Therefore this system can only be understood from the concept of the organic whole. But that does not mean that we can regard that matter can produce consciousness. We need to clearly study the logic of life processes to understand this. The category of acit potency or material energy is never the source of life in the Vedantic thought. Yet the acit potency is dependent category and an attribute in the philosophy of Ramanuja. So we cannot regard matter and mind as being merely dual aspect of the same entity. When there is death there is no more consciousness in the dead body. Neither does the residual dead cell act in any conscious manner. They just disintegrate according to the laws of entropy. Therefore this body and the life principle have no intrinsic relation to each other after death. But how matter is produced is an important question. As we can see when the life principle is present, the body of the organism develops and changes. We have already suggested that no one has done any precise experiment to ascertain whether the law of conservation of mass and energy in case of life is obeyed. According to the Vedantic thought there must be a discrepancy and this discrepancy can be experimentally determined. Therefore what is the problem to think that the whole world of material plane can come from the potencies of Original life, which is the theistic position of the major World Religions. Therefore the problem of Unity is solved through the axiomatic principle of Vedanta (i) Life comes from Life, and (ii) Matter comes from Life.
When you state that consciousness is the mental aspect of a state of the brain-mind system or that of a brain-process in the first person perspective, it is certainly true that the brain mind system is intricately involved in the different expressions of phenomenal consciousness. Yet the brain cannot be the source of consciousness. Rather when life is present, it produces the inseparable brain mind system within the organic unity of the concept of species. As we know that every cell is sentient, we can only say that in the living process the different organs produce each other. Yet it is the life principle which is a higher and superior category in Vedanta, without which there will be no such process. It is this living entity which holds together the separated material energies in the life process. Hence the life process has a much deeper conceptual relation to Reality. Therefore the natural process of life is inconceivable within physics and chemistry. Chemistry never becomes life in nature.
Some Notes on Visista-advaita Philosophy of Sri Ramanuja
First let us try to understand something about the philosophy of Visistadvaita. This is a system of Philosophy given by Sripad Ramanujacharya and this critiqued the then and dominating thesis of the kevala advaita system of Adi Sankaracharya. The first point therefore should be to understand the distinction between advaita and kevala advaita. The advaita philosophy has been there in India from time immemorial. It did not begin with Sripad Adi Sankaracharya and neither did he coin the term advaita. Advaita means the non-dual truth. But Sankaracharya’s explanation of advaita is called kevala advaita or Monism. In this explanation the phenomenal reality was an unreality or illusion stemming from avidya or ignorance. Sankaracharya had dismissed plurality by focusing on avidya for establishing his explanation of advaita or non-dualism. But advaita did not always mean Monism in Indian Philosophical traditions. It is the Sankara’s advaita in which the term means monism and therefore it has been categorized not just as advaita but with a qualifier as kevala-advaita. Thus it was distinguished from the philosophy of Suddha Advaita by the line of teachers in Sripad Sridhar Swami’s theistic tradition and other vaishnava acharya’s to protect the real meaning of Advaita as was and is being taught in the theistic schools of India from the onslaught of the Sankara’s reductive philosophy of Monism, where all is reduced to One.
Sripad Ramanuja Acharya gave the concept of Organic Whole in his philosophy of Visitaadvaita. In this he has achieved the great reconciliation of the One with the Many. Sankara had concluded that the Many is illusory manifestations of the One due to the function of Maya or avidya (ignorance). And therefore Sankara had stressed on the Reality One and the illusion of the Many. Therefore Sankara’s philosophy is that of reductive idealism and he stresses only on the principle of identity that exists between the One and the Many based upon the principle of ignorance. He neglects or makes the distinction between one and many a product of illusion, giving distinctions no reality [18].
But Sripad Ramanuja Acharya has stressed that the principle of distinction is a reality. It is not merely a result of illusion as held in Sankara’s line of thinking. Sripad Ramanuja has stressed the reality of both Many as well as the One. The ‘many’ are not the illusory manifestations of the one but they are held in their inseparable relation of dependence on the One. In this way Sripad Ramanuja returned the atman or the soul back to the Vedantins, which was previously lost in the Brahman of Sankara’s kevala advaita system of thought [19].
Therefore matter, souls and Brahman are all real in Ramanuja. The world of matter and souls is treated as attributes of the Brahman. The technical Sanskrit term for attributes is visesanas. The first point is that Brahman is not merely an attributeless homogenous stuff of consciousness. Brahman is Supra Personality or the best of Personalities, or Adi Purusha or Purushottama. He is endowed with infinity of auspicious attributes. He is all knowing, all powerful, all merciful as well as the transcendent Supreme Being. The world of souls (cit) and the world of matter (acit) are regarded as His chief attributes (visesanas). And He is the fundamental Substance (visesya). From this view of the complex whole (called Vaisitya drstya), Brahman is One without a second. Only from this point of view is Ramanuja’s view Monistic, and therefore this kind of Monism is quite different from Sankara’s attributeless Monism. Therefore Ramanuja’s Monism is called visista Advaita. From the angle of vision of the attributes (visesanas), they are different from Brahman, but all time they are always dependent on Brahman and inseparable from Brahman. The distinction and plurality of the souls persists with their dependence on God. Their distinction does not go against their dependence on God. The Brahman of Ramanuja "is an organic unity in which, as in all living organisms one element predominates over and controls the rest. [20]”
The subordinate elements are termed visesanas and the predominant element visesya. Because the visesanas cannot exist by themselves separately, the complex whole (visista) in which they are included is described as a unity. Hence, the name of Ramanuja philosophy is Visistadvaita. Therefore Reality according to Ramanuja is not merely a bare identity as held in Sankara. Reality is an identity-in-difference and the difference is not unreal. The identity element holds the difference and makes for the unity and there is a coordination of identity and difference. In Ramanuja’s system the world of souls and matter are co eternal with God, but not external from Him. Matter or prakriti through pradhan and mahatattva comes from Brahman as one of its energies and is called bahiranga or external energy (appearing external or separate as Maya) thus it is an eternal potential but not intrinsic to Him as his antaranga or spiritual energy. The relation between matter, souls and God in Ramanuja’s system is called aprthaka siddhi. This relation is an eternal one and it maintains distinctions between entities that are in intimate and inseparable relation to each other. Therefore Brahman is the inner immortal ruler and this is based upon the concept of the indweller (antaryami). Moreover Brahman is not unknowable [21]. Ramanuja discovered the epistemological plane called adhoksaja in which such knowability becomes possible.
During the state of dissolution, the world of souls and matter remain in a subtle form within the Lord. This aspect of Lord is called karanavastha, or the causal state. In the effect stage, it is called karyavastha. In this stage the world of souls, get attached to the world of matter and are said to be born. In this way the effect is not something entirely different from the cause. The cause itself gets transformed onto effect and this is called parinamavada. Parinaama means change. So as soon as we ask does that mean God Himself changes into the world of matter and souls. And if so does that not taint Him as something defective. But Ramanuja avoids all these defects and still maintains the concept of change through the category called dharmabhuta jnana, or attributive knowledge. It is not that the Lord changes or the souls change. The Lord and the souls are of the nature of substantive knowledge or jnana. Besides this the Lord and souls have an attributive called dharmabhuta jnana. What changes is the attribute (visesana) called the dharmabhuta jnana, or the attributive knowledge and not the substantive jnana. This dharmabhuta jnana is substance as well as attribute. It is substance in the sense that it undergoes changes and produces effects which are called material cause. It is however not the inert matter. It is this dharmabhuta jnana which operates through the mental faculties and produces knowledge. Not only knowledge but also internal states like desires and aversion are also regarded as the transformation of this dharmabhuta jnana. As it is this attributive knowledge that changes there is no necessity of parinaamavada for God. Thus the change in the attribute does not taint or effect the Lord in anyway. Ramanuja is neither a follower parinaamavaada nor that of vivartavaada [22]. This point is also accepted and supported by Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura in his Bhagavad-Gita commentary where he has clearly mentioned that the Gaudiya philosophy does not adhere to Brahma-Parinaamavad. But that the Gaudiyas are the proponents of Shakti-parinaamavad. What is transformed is not the Brahman, but the potency. Therefore the cosmos is not directly a transformation of Brahman. Rather the cosmos is a transformation of shakti or potency, hence the name shakti-parinaamavaad. Thus for Ramanuja, Lord is the Supreme Reality and all others including the chit as well as the acit are dependent upon Him. Every word in the veda has for its plenary significance, the Lord. It is only in the secondary sense that the words of the veda refer to the things of the world, but in the deeper significance of the words are called Vedanta-vyutpatti and it always refers to Brahman or God [23].
The entire world of Reality according to Ramanuja can be categorized as dravyas (substance) and adravyas (attributes). Thus colour, sound, taste, etc. all come under the category of attributes and these go on to constitute prakriti. Potency is also an adravya or the attribute. Besides the attributes there are six substances (dravyas) which can be classified under the categories of material or non material. The non-material entities are (i) God, (ii) jiva, (iii) Nitya Vibhuti, (iv) dharmabhuta jnana. Time as experienced in the material plane and prakriti constitutes the material variety of substances. Prakriti which is comprised of three modes of material nature stops at the borderline of nitya-vibuti, which is transcendental nature (super prakriti) under the control of the Lord. Time is within Brahman for Ramanuja and space is derived from prakriti [23].
The predecessors of Ramanuja, like the alvars as well as the followers have always presented a theistic concept of Vedanta and explained the philosophy of love of God in their writings. To them, the Holy Ramanujaites, God is not merely a theoretical abstraction but a fact of the experience of the surrendered souls who have developed love of Godhead. Their main theme is the greatness of God and His glory as well as His presence in everything. They stress that the mercy of the Lord as unconditional and all comprehensive. Mercy is higher than Justice. Sripad Ramanuja Acharya was a great genius and a many sided scholar and the foremost of the visistadvaita dialecticians. According to Ramanuja knowledge always has a corresponding object. There is never an objectless cognition. Ramanuja also explained that the cognition of an attributeless object is a mere fiction. A non-qualified object can never be the object of cognition.
Conclusion
Vimal attempts a modification of Visistadvaita without considering many of the essential elements of the philosophy of Sri Ramanuja. Therefore the problems that are cited by him like the Ist pp, cannot be solved within modified visistaadvaita. The reason is that he relies more on the concept of dependent co origination. However the Brahman according to Vedanta is the janmady asya yatah – the source of all that be. The atheistic position has been scrutinized well by Ramanuja, especially when he faced the Buddhists philosophers of his time as well as the Sankarites and others. Therefore it is incorrect to dismiss visistadvaita simply by saying that it does not cater to a non-theistic harmonization of reality. No non-theistic harmonization has ever been achieved. The problems of consciousness are major question mark over such attempts. However the theistic position clearly outlines guidelines for ascertaining how matter can come from life. Therefore only the theistic position has the proper capacity to produce the harmonization that is necessary for a truly rational and comprehensive understanding of reality.
References
[1] Vimal, R.L.P., Vimal, M., U., P. Introducing extended Dual-Aspect Monism (Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita) Framework in Religion: Prāṇa Pratiṣṭha, https://www.researchgate.net/p ublication/283243225, DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.1.4356.4249, October, 2015, pp. 2.
[2] ibid, 1.[3] ibid 1., pp. 3.[4] ibid., 3.[5] ibid 1., pp. 4.[6] ibid 1., pp. 8.[7] ibid 1., pp. 8.[8] ibid 1., pp. 12.[9] ibid 1., pp. 12.[10] ibid 1., pp. 9.[11] ibid 1., pp. 1, 9.[12] ibid 1., pp. 9.[13] ibid 1., pp. 8.[14] Tilakaratne, A., Director, Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies, 133/19, Nawala Road, Narahenpita, Colombo 05 Sri Lanka. refer to the article: ‘Dependent Co-origination: The Buddhist Approach to Reality’, http://www.beyondthenet.net/sl abs/articles/Dependent.pdf[15] quoted in [14], “If empty is not seen then reaching what has not been reached, the act of terminating suffering as well as the relinquishing of all defilements also will not be seen.” (Nagarjuna, XXIV: 38-39).
[17] Prabhupada A.C., Bhaktivedanta Swami, quoted in http://gitabase.com/eng/LTRS/1 976/2/76FE, letter to Sripad Madhava Das [Brahmachari name of Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja].
[18] P. Nagaraja Rao, The Schools of Vedanta, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavanm, Bombay, 1943, pp. 73.[19] ibid, 18.[20] ibid, 18.[21] ibid, 18, pp. 73-75.[22] ibid, 18, pp. 75-76.[23]ibid, 18, pp. 76.
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Dear Peter and Serge,
There does seem to be a range of meaning to the notion of ‘theory’ when we look at examples of theories. So, although Newton’s theory of gravitation does not give an ‘explanation’ for how gravity is able to affect objects at a distance, it is still an adequate and rather successful explanation and predictive model for a large set of observations over a wide range of scales. In the effort to widen the range of applicability and predictive power of a theory of gravitation (i.e. to understand why the environment of an accelerating elevator looks just like the environment in a stationary elevator in the presence of a gravitational field), Einstein came upon the idea of curvature of spacetime as an ‘explanation’ for how gravity can influence objects at a distance: a massive object at location A results in the spacetime near it to be curved in such a way as to influence another object at location B. This theory greatly expands the range of applicability and predictive power to include behavior of masses that are highly concentrated (neutron stars and black holes), and large energy events that generate gravitational waves (predicted by Einstein and confirmed by the LIGO experiment). But even this theory does not account for all phenomena, as evidenced by its extension by Hawking to include some quantum effects near black holes. My intention in responding here is to highlight three things about theories in general (of the many characteristics that could be highlighted), and how these things apply, in particular, to a purported theory of consciousness.
The first is the presence and assumption of primitives, or concepts that are considered ‘givens’. For example, in the case of a theory of gravitation, a ‘given’ is that it acts at a distance. Who can argue with that, right? Except that within this assumption is embedded the particular ways our human senses perceive and our minds interpret distinction or separation between what we see as different objects, and the distances between them. So, although Newton could not account for that particular aspect of gravity, his theory still stands as a valid and effective theory. And this leads to the second aspect of theories, which is their range of applicability, to some degree determined by the primitives of the theory. So, both Newton’s and Einstein’s theories of gravitation are limited in their applicability to scales (in phase space) much larger than the quantum of action. The primitive in this case is the assumption of the unrestricted divisibility of matter. Questioning the validity or essential nature of the primitives creates the opportunity to expand the range of applicability of the theory, as does Einstein’s in relation to Newton’s. So, these two aspects can be summarized as: 1) what question(s) does the theory try to answer? and 2) what are the givens it must answer these questions in terms of? The third aspect is that a theory that is expanded in its range by changing the primitives does not necessarily invalidate the former theory: Newton’s theory is still adequate for many things, and far easier to use than Einstein’s.
I basically agree with you, Peter, that Serge is pointing to a demanding concept of theory. But I would also say that behaviorist theories of consciousness have a (limited) range of validity. So, as long as the primitives are clear, and the range of applicability is clear, then perhaps there can be a little more agreement on what is valid theory? For example, consider the challenge to Deepak from Serge:
“I suggest to mean an explanatory framework which is able to explain how the physical (sensory) signals become transformed into experience.”
Within this challenge there appears to me to be embedded an already virtually complete theory for how experience happens: it happens when “physical (sensory) signals become transformed into experience”. First there is a signal, which has physical roots or are physical in nature, and then somehow these are transformed—altered in their essential nature as physical things—into experience (assumed, I guess, to be non-physical in nature). Hence the difficulty in answering the challenge—how can we give an explanatory framework for something that is already assumed without question to be a certain way? I believe what Deepak is saying is that he disagrees with the most commonly assumed primitives, the ‘given’s’.
We have a ‘common’ narrative born of historical record that life evolves from physical things that begin with simple interactions, and such interactions grow in complexity until ‘poof’ - life emerges. If we accept this narrative as a given, along with the more subtle embedded assumptions, then we appear to be constrained to pose the question as SP did above.
I would also like to point out there are many theories of consciousness already, but they can be viewed from the perspective described above—clearly demarcate the primitives and their range of applicability. I can mention two I am familiar with (arguments against them are a separate issue): Giulio Tononi’s Integrated Information Theory (which doesn’t so much explain consciousness in physical terms as it gives constraints on a physical substrate sufficient to account for the phenomenology of consciousness), and Penrose and Hameroff’s Orchestrated Objective Reduction hypothesis.
Regards,
Siegfried
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My take todayMind / Body/ Universe are human constructsThere is only consciousness in which those constructs are conceived
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Your conclusion: consciousness is unexplainable by science, now and forever, therefore, we must adopt on an idealist philosophical position, mind/consciousness is primary, obviously ignoring all the knowledge produced by science, i.e., the universe and the Earth existed long before human consciousness emerged.
I submit Benjamin Farrington argued persuasively that Plato’s idealism was associated with the emergence of an aristocracy doing no manual labor, served by slaves, leading to the concept of mind being primary, in contrast to the materialism of Thales of Miletus who lived in a more equal society where everyone worked with their hands. Carlo Ginzburg’s “The Cheese and the Worms” is recommended, supporting this take on the relation of materialism to social reality (Menocchio the miller: God and the angels came out of the foam of ocean waves, spontaneous materialism). Menocchio burned at the stake one year before Giordano Bruno; witness the fate of outspoken atheists in Bangladesh, and other victims of religious intolerance of non-believers.
If material reality is just an illusion, as all of you idealists claim, I challenge you all to stand in front of an incoming train or truck, or jump off a tall building, your choice. Again it is obvious that common sense, grounded in conscious realization that material reality exists outside our consciousness will prevail for your personal survival. Of course, I anticipate some convoluted argument to the contrary.
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Syamala Hari
That was a perfect explanation!
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On 04/20/2017 06:43 AM, 'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote:-[Deepak Chopra] on April 20, 2017 wrote:>What came first consciousness or theories about consciousness?
[S.P.] Let us call a spade a spade. By a "theory of consciousness" I suggest to mean an explanatory framework which is able to explain how the physical (sensory) signals become transformed into experience.
This is a very demanding concept of theory that you are dealing with here, Serge. Most theories outside mathematics only try to explain things while leaving basic features unexplained. Newton's theory of gravity only explains the effects of gravity mathematically. It does not even address the question of how gravity is able to affect objects at a distance, through seemingly empty space. Newton himself admitted that he had no explanation for that.
Einstein had a sort of explanation: objects curve space around them in such a way that objects follow a path that can be calculated. But he could not explain just how masses can do such a thing as curving space.
Materialists have a theory of "consciousness" in which they give a concept of "experience" in purely behavioristic terms. For instance, they might fall back on a "third person" interpretation of consciousness in terms of responses to stimuli. According to this, someone is "conscious" of something in the environment if his responses to it are the sort that we have come to associate with being conscious of it.If a theory is not able to explain this, then it is not a theory of consciousness.
Sometimes materialists will even act as though the only use of the word is to indicate whether someone is "conscious" or "unconscious" in an everyday sense of the word.
So, may I as Deepak to name, at least, one theory of consciousness known for him? Who is its author? If he will not name, at least, one theory, then his question should be treated as senseless.
I second the motion. I hope Deepak will name some theories of consciousness that go beyond the behavioristic theory, about which many books have been written.
Peter Nyikos
Thanks in advance,Serge Patlavskiy
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On 20 Apr 2017, at 22:58, David Schwartzman <dschwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Your conclusion: consciousness is unexplainable by science, now and forever, therefore, we must adopt on an idealist philosophical position, mind/consciousness is primary, obviously ignoring all the knowledge produced by science, i.e., the universe and the Earth existed long before human consciousness emerged.
I submit Benjamin Farrington argued persuasively that Plato’s idealism was associated with the emergence of an aristocracy doing no manual labor, served by slaves, leading to the concept of mind being primary, in contrast to the materialism of Thales of Miletus who lived in a more equal society where everyone worked with their hands. Carlo Ginzburg’s “The Cheese and the Worms” is recommended, supporting this take on the relation of materialism to social reality (Menocchio the miller: God and the angels came out of the foam of ocean waves, spontaneous materialism). Menocchio burned at the stake one year before Giordano Bruno; witness the fate of outspoken atheists in Bangladesh, and other victims of religious intolerance of non-believers.
If material reality is just an illusion, as all of you idealists claim, I challenge you all to stand in front of an incoming train or truck, or jump off a tall building, your choice. Again it is obvious that common sense, grounded in conscious realization that material reality exists outside our consciousness will prevail for your personal survival. Of course, I anticipate some convoluted argument to the contrary.
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
Peter - great commentsAll theories are conceived in consciousness alone
Materialists cannot explain any experience including the experience of doing science
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Consciousness is the knowing element in every experience --mental or perceptual
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The question of what came first, consciousness or theory of consciousness, has a question prior to it. Is there a consciousness? And then what is consciousness? Those who beg the question here assume that there is a consensus on this.
I do not think there is any more consensus on this as there is on the existence of God. There is a consensus that there are ultimate constituents of matter and then alternative theories are spurned out and debated on this. Of course the first question here is "Are there ultimate constituents?" The Ionians answered this in the affirmative and there has been consensus on this among scientists ever since. Of course, this could be the wrong answer to the question. That is another matter. But we have theories because we have consensus that there is matter and that there are ultimate constituents. Perhaps there is some such consensus among those who spurn out theories of consciousness, there must be, but it is not a consensus neither of all humans nor of the entire scientific community. I am for the ordinary use of the word 'consciousness' which is a bodily use in terms of the proper functioning of the body.
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Your conclusion: consciousness is unexplainable by science, now and forever, therefore, we must adopt on an idealist philosophical position,
mind/consciousness is primary, obviously ignoring all the knowledge produced by science, i.e., the universe and the Earth existed long before human consciousness emerged.
I submit Benjamin Farrington argued persuasively that Plato’s idealism was associated with the emergence of an aristocracy doing no manual labor, served by slaves, leading to the concept of mind being primary, in contrast to the materialism of Thales of Miletus who lived in a more equal society where everyone worked with their hands. Carlo Ginzburg’s “The Cheese and the Worms” is recommended, supporting this take on the relation of materialism to social reality (Menocchio the miller: God and the angels came out of the foam of ocean waves, spontaneous materialism). Menocchio burned at the stake one year before Giordano Bruno; witness the fate of outspoken atheists in Bangladesh, and other victims of religious intolerance of non-believers.
If material reality is just an illusion, as all of you idealists claim, I challenge you all to stand in front of an incoming train or truck, or jump off a tall building, your choice. Again it is obvious that common sense, grounded in conscious realization that material reality exists outside our consciousness will prevail for your personal survival. Of course, I anticipate some convoluted argument to the contrary.
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
Peter - great commentsAll theories are conceived in consciousness alone
Materialists cannot explain any experience including the experience of doing science
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Peter - great commentsAll theories are conceived in consciousness alone
Materialists cannot explain any experience including the experience of doing science
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My take todayThe labels we give to Mind/Body/Universe are of course human constructs, the product of our collective consciousness as an activity of the material social brain of animals, the result of some 4 billion years of biological evolution.This knowledge comes from the never completed process of real science research most consistent with an emergent materialist philosophy, rather than the citation of some sacred text with all the answers now and forever.
Long live Materialist Neo-Darwinian Science and its endless development (e.g., epigenetics, niche construction)
David Schwartzman, biogeochemistProfessor EmeritusHoward UniversityAuthor of Life, Temperature and the Earth:the Self-Organizing Biosphere, 1999, 2002, Columbia University Press
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
My take todayMind / Body/ Universe are human constructsThere is only consciousness in which those constructs are conceived
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/1942 0889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.al s.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/1942 0889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org /harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
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Fifth International Conference
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August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Chopra: No one has ever proved the existence of matter.Vimal: Did anybody has proved the existence of the consciousness-in-itself?
Kind regards,Rām----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Matter is a concept an interpretation is sense perceptionsNo one has ever proved the existence of matterMatter is non material
It's made of nothing
My take todayThe labels we give to Mind/Body/Universe are of course human constructs, the product of our collective consciousness as an activity of the material social brain of animals, the result of some 4 billion years of biological evolution.This knowledge comes from the never completed process of real science research most consistent with an emergent materialist philosophy, rather than the citation of some sacred text with all the answers now and forever.
Long live Materialist Neo-Darwinian Science and its endless development (e.g., epigenetics, niche construction)
David Schwartzman, biogeochemistProfessor EmeritusHoward UniversityAuthor of Life, Temperature and the Earth:the Self-Organizing Biosphere, 1999, 2002, Columbia University Press
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
My take todayMind / Body/ Universe are human constructsThere is only consciousness in which those constructs are conceived
<image001.png><OutlookEmoji-1483997936424_email-signature-plain.jpg.jpg>
My take todayMind / Body/ Universe are human constructsThere is only consciousness in which those constructs are conceived
-[Deepak Chopra] on April 20, 2017 wrote:>What came first consciousness or theories about consciousness?[S.P.] Let us call a spade a spade. By a "theory of consciousness" I suggest to mean an explanatory framework which is able to explain how the physical (sensory) signals become transformed into experience.
If a theory is not able to explain this, then it is not a theory of consciousness.
So, may I ask Deepak to name, at least, one theory of consciousness known for him? Who is its author? If he will not name, at least, one theory, then his question should be treated as senseless.
I would say consciousness is the “being” aspect in every experience.
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Fifth International Conference
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August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Consciousness is the knowing element in every experience --mental or perceptual
2013 Costa Del Mar RoadCarlsbad, CA 92009
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of priyedarshi jetli <pje...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 3:09:52 AM
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Chopra: No one has ever proved the existence of matter.Vimal: Did anybody has proved the existence of the consciousness-in-itself?
Kind regards,Rām
------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
2013 Costa Del Mar RoadCarlsbad, CA 92009
From: Deepak Chopra
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 6:44:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Matter is a concept an interpretation is sense perceptionsNo one has ever proved the existence of matterMatter is non material
It's made of nothing
Deepak Chopra MD
My take todayThe labels we give to Mind/Body/Universe are of course human constructs, the product of our collective consciousness as an activity of the material social brain of animals, the result of some 4 billion years of biological evolution.This knowledge comes from the never completed process of real science research most consistent with an emergent materialist philosophy, rather than the citation of some sacred text with all the answers now and forever.
Long live Materialist Neo-Darwinian Science and its endless development (e.g., epigenetics, niche construction)
David Schwartzman, biogeochemistProfessor EmeritusHoward UniversityAuthor of Life, Temperature and the Earth:the Self-Organizing Biosphere, 1999, 2002, Columbia University Press
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
My take todayMind / Body/ Universe are human constructsThere is only consciousness in which those constructs are conceived
Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue: http://scienceandscientist.org /donate
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/1942 0889.2016.1160191
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.al s.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/1942 0889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org /harmonizer
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org /Darwin
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/1942 0889.2015.1085138
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Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/1942 0889.2015.1085138
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Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/ 19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist. org/harmonizer
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Fifth International Conference
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August 18—19, 2017
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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To Priyedarshi
Syamala Hari answered this already and in the best possible way. “Element” is the sun light in the metaphor.
Indian philosophy calls the collection of all the thoughts, desires, emotions, memories, etc, of an individual as the individual's mind and emphasizes that just like lifeless matter, an individual's mind is NOT conscious! The philosophy explains the solution to the hard problem by means of an analogy as follows: When sun light falls in a pot containing water, the light is reflected by the water creating an image of the sun. The image has some brightness but its origin is in the sun light and not in the pot nor in the water. A living being is a body with a mind and similar to a pot containing water; the mind is like water and the body is like the pot. Consciousness (with big C) is the sun light. The consciousness appearing in a living being is like the image of the sun in water. Just as there is no reflection in an empty pot, there is no appearance of consciousness in lifeless matter but only in living beings because they have minds and life is the interaction of mind with matter. Again, just as the water needs a pot to hold it, and the reflection is gone if the pot is broken, the mind cannot exhibit the apparently conscious behavior after the death of the physical body.
Syamala Hari
Professor, Department of Physiology
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From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of priyedarshi jetli
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 12:32 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Deepak,
What does this really mean? I do not understand! Normally, 'knowing' is identified with a subject, which could be human or some other living organism or even a computing machine. The term 'element' here is strange. Are elements knowers?
Priyedarshi
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
Consciousness is the knowing element in every experience --mental or perceptual
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Deepak Chopra MD
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Hi jo,Thanks.Edwards: For me the whole sterile debate was resolved in 1693 by Leibniz’s short piece of Reflections on True Metaphysics. He pointed out that the nature of the constituent elements of the world is action or force or necessity of change. And in subsequent essays he shows that the parsimonious view is to assume that the dynamic relation of force is the same dynamic relation (viewed from the other end) as perception or experience - as in the phrase ‘the leaves experienced force’. So force is not in consciousness nor consciousness in force. They are the same thing. Most people find it hard to deny stuff so they called Leibniz an idealist but he would have never suggested that the force of an oncoming train was merely a whim. The solidity of the train for him is a ‘well-founded illusion’, the well-founded being the crux. It is an illusion only in the sense that Leibniz understood indirect realism.Vimal: Materialists could argue that “consciousness and force are the same thing” can be interpreted as Identity theory of materialism. I would interpret that Leibniz’s relational ontology is close to the eDAM because consciousness and force appear same as they are two inseparable aspects of a state of an entity/mode: the consciousness/experience is the mental aspect viewed from 1st person perspective and the force is the physical aspect viewed from the 3rd person perspective; information is the same in both aspects; it is just viewing the same information from two different perspectives.
Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
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On 22 Apr 2017, at 16:10, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
The term ‘cosmic consciousness’ can be defined as the functional (not the experiential) aspect of consciousness (such as cognition/knowledge/information) of a group of all conscious beings of our universe; see (Theiner & O’Connor, 2010) for the emergence of group cognition).
Kind regards,Rām----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/ 19420889.2015.1085138
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Fifth International Conference
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My take todayThe labels we give to Mind/Body/Universe are of course human constructs, the product of our collective consciousness as an activity of the material social brain of animals, the result of some 4 billion years of biological evolution.This knowledge comes from the never completed process of real science research most consistent with an emergent materialist philosophy, rather than the citation of some sacred text with all the answers now and forever.
Long live Materialist Neo-Darwinian Science and its endless development (e.g., epigenetics, niche construction)
David Schwartzman, biogeochemistProfessor EmeritusHoward UniversityAuthor of Life, Temperature and the Earth:the Self-Organizing Biosphere, 1999, 2002, Columbia University Press
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
My take todayMind / Body/ Universe are human constructsThere is only consciousness in which those constructs are conceived
Dear RLP Vimal,
Namaste. Thanks for sending in your paper written in 2011, in which you have added my response and your replies recently. I sincerely appreciate your detailed response. We were also travelling a lot and hence it is a delayed response.
1.0 Dual Aspect Monism
I had the opportunity to look at the Dual aspect Monism webpage from Wikipedia [1] which Sripad Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja, our Gurudeva had shown us. It was interesting to know that Pauli and Jung’s work resulted in the conjecture of dual aspect monism (DAM). It posits that different aspects including the mental and physical may show a complementarity in quantum physical sense. John Polkinghorne also was inclined to DAM. Certainly therefore it is a current problem meriting a serious study.
Atmanspacher wrote vextensively on DAM and from the work of Paul Berneys explained complementarity as, “Two descriptions are complementary if they mutually exclude each other, yet are both necessary to describe a situation exhaustively.”[2]
The Vedantic Concept has a term called Pradhan for the unmanifested sum total of the material elements. Pradhana is not the Brahman of Vedanta. Brahman has no material qualities and that is why it is called nirguna. The Vedantic causality principle is that Brahman (The Absolute Truth) is sarva karana karanam or cause of all causes [3].
DAM view is quite different in that it posits that causality p
------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Saturday, 14 January 2017 5:50 PM, "'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegrou ps.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Bhakti Vijnana Muni,
THANKS for your interest in the eDAM/Dvi-Pakṣa Advaita framework and providing excellent critique.
I am in the process of addressing your comments, and I will let you know as soon as it is completed.
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Kindest regards,Ram14 Jan. 2017
------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Dear RLP Vimal,
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Dear Avtar Singhji,
I agree with you that consciousness at fundamental level is an omnipresent, eternal state but I don't find it conforming to logic that it is a zero energy state. If we agree to the zero energy state of absolute consciousness, this will reduce to the quantum vacuum which will lead to the notion of something from nothing which prima facie is illogical and irrational. If you stick to the concept of zero state energy for absolute consciousness, God or Waheguru will reduce to zero state having no powers.
In view of above, I think, more rational approach will be one in which absolute consciousness has infinite energy and powers. From this infinite absolute consciousness, infinite universes take birth and merge in that. The plausible thing could be that with the dissolution of our universe, manifested space, time, matter and physical energy of our universe reduces to zero state. But if we interpret that absolute consciousness also becomes zero, this will amount to taking the all powerful God to the level of nil knowledge and nil powers. I think, with or without manifestation of our universe, God's infiniteness in terms of its knowledge, power and spread remains intact.
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
DAM view is quite different in that it posits that causality p
Dear RLP Vimal,
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Dear Peter and Serge,
There does seem to be a range of meaning to the notion of ‘theory’ when we look at examples of theories. So, although Newton’s theory of gravitation does not give an ‘explanation’ for how gravity is able to affect objects at a distance, it is still an adequate and rather successful explanation and predictive model for a large set of observations over a wide range of scales. In the effort to widen the range of applicability and predictive power of a theory of gravitation (i.e. to understand why the environment of an accelerating elevator looks just like the environment in a stationary elevator in the presence of a gravitational field), Einstein came upon the idea of curvature of spacetime as an ‘explanation’ for how gravity can influence objects at a distance: a massive object at location A results in the spacetime near it to be curved in such a way as to influence another object at location B. This theory greatly expands the range of applicability and predictive power to include behavior of masses that are highly concentrated (neutron stars and black holes), and large energy events that generate gravitational waves (predicted by Einstein and confirmed by the LIGO experiment). But even this theory does not account for all phenomena, as evidenced by its extension by Hawking to include some quantum effects near black holes. My intention in responding here is to highlight three things about theories in general (of the many characteristics that could be highlighted), and how these things apply, in particular, to a purported theory of consciousness.
The first is the presence and assumption of primitives, or concepts that are considered ‘givens’. For example, in the case of a theory of gravitation, a ‘given’ is that it acts at a distance. Who can argue with that, right? Except that within this assumption is embedded the particular ways our human senses perceive and our minds interpret distinction or separation between what we see as different objects, and the distances between them. So, although Newton could not account for that particular aspect of gravity, his theory still stands as a valid and effective theory. And this leads to the second aspect of theories, which is their range of applicability, to some degree determined by the primitives of the theory. So, both Newton’s and Einstein’s theories of gravitation are limited in their applicability to scales (in phase space) much larger than the quantum of action. The primitive in this case is the assumption of the unrestricted divisibility of matter. Questioning the validity or essential nature of the primitives creates the opportunity to expand the range of applicability of the theory, as does Einstein’s in relation to Newton’s. So, these two aspects can be summarized as: 1) what question(s) does the theory try to answer? and 2) what are the givens it must answer these questions in terms of? The third aspect is that a theory that is expanded in its range by changing the primitives does not necessarily invalidate the former theory: Newton’s theory is still adequate for many things, and far easier to use than Einstein’s.
I basically agree with you, Peter, that Serge is pointing to a demanding concept of theory. But I would also say that behaviorist theories of consciousness have a (limited) range of validity. So, as long as the primitives are clear, and the range of applicability is clear, then perhaps there can be a little more agreement on what is valid theory? For example, consider the challenge to Deepak from Serge:
“I suggest to mean an explanatory framework which is able to explain how the physical (sensory) signals become transformed into experience.”
Within this challenge there appears to me to be embedded an already virtually complete theory for how experience happens: it happens when “physical (sensory) signals become transformed into experience”. First there is a signal, which has physical roots or are physical in nature, and then somehow these are transformed—altered in their essential nature as physical things—into experience (assumed, I guess, to be non-physical in nature). Hence the difficulty in answering the challenge—how can we give an explanatory framework for something that is already assumed without question to be a certain way? I believe what Deepak is saying is that he disagrees with the most commonly assumed primitives, the ‘given’s’.
We have a ‘common’ narrative born of historical record that life evolves from physical things that begin with simple interactions, and such interactions grow in complexity until ‘poof’ - life emerges. If we accept this narrative as a given, along with the more subtle embedded assumptions, then we appear to be constrained to pose the question as SP did above.
I would also like to point out there are many theories of consciousness already, but they can be viewed from the perspective described above—clearly demarcate the primitives and their range of applicability. I can mention two I am familiar with (arguments against them are a separate issue): Giulio Tononi’s Integrated Information Theory (which doesn’t so much explain consciousness in physical terms as it gives constraints on a physical substrate sufficient to account for the phenomenology of consciousness), and Penrose and Hameroff’s Orchestrated Objective Reduction hypothesis.
Regards,
Siegfried
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Peter Nyikos
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 11:48 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
On 04/20/2017 06:43 AM, 'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote:
-
[Deepak Chopra] on April 20, 2017 wrote:
>What came first consciousness or theories about consciousness?
[S.P.] Let us call a spade a spade. By a "theory of consciousness" I suggest to mean an explanatory framework which is able to explain how the physical (sensory) signals become transformed into experience.
This is a very demanding concept of theory that you are dealing with here, Serge. Most theories outside mathematics only
try to explain things while leaving basic features unexplained. Newton's theory of gravity only explains the effects of gravity mathematically. It does not even address the question of how gravity is able to affect objects at a distance, through seemingly
empty space. Newton himself admitted that he had no explanation for that.
Einstein had a sort of explanation: objects curve space around them in such a way that objects follow a path that can be calculated. But he could not explain just how masses can do such a thing as curving space.
If a theory is not able to explain this, then it is not a theory of consciousness.
Materialists have a theory of "consciousness" in which they give a concept of "experience" in purely behavioristic terms. For instance, they might fall back on a "third person" interpretation of consciousness in terms of responses to
stimuli. According to this, someone is "conscious" of something in the environment if his responses to it are the sort that we have come to associate with being conscious of it.
Sometimes materialists will even act as though the only use of the word is to indicate whether someone is "conscious" or "unconscious" in an everyday sense of the word.
So, may I as Deepak to name, at least, one theory of consciousness known for him? Who is its author? If he will not name, at least, one theory, then his question should be treated as senseless.
I second the motion. I hope Deepak will name some theories of consciousness that go beyond the behavioristic theory, about which many books have been written.
Peter Nyikos
Thanks in advance,
Serge Patlavskiy
From: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
What came first consciousness or science ?
What came first consciousness or theories about consciousness ?
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My views on Consciousness based mostly on Upanishads follow:
1. Consciousness prevails (It is termed Brahman).
2. It exists on its own;
3. It is an entity that is unborn, ever present and omnipresent, without end, changeless and indestructible.
4. It is immaterial, thus without qualifications (beyond comparison) and without attributes (shapeless, formless), that is why it is beyond the capacity of the senses of perception.
5. It is the absolute frame of reference from which everything that changes can be measured (experienced in living beings), hence the Absolute Truth, the Only Truth (Ekam Satya) that never changes or dies.
6. The principles (or the seeds) of: matter (tamas; static, ignorance, inertia), energy (rajas; motion, activity, change) and thought (sattva; balance, knowledge, light) are ever present in Consciousness, the potencies of Consciousness.
7. Since it is the only entity that prevails, it exercises its potencies to expresses itself to know itself. Human beings are considered highest in creation, because in human life alone in the sequence of evolution, one questions, ponders and ultimately attains enlightenment about the source, or experiences the source through disciplines such as Samadhi.
8. All phenomenal existence of matter (and its continuous evolution), energy (including life energy, prana) and life (and its continuous evolution) with action, motion and change are perceived, only in Consciousness. Correspondingly, from Consciousness arise all: the perceiver (the Subjective Principle in the perceiver, the so-called soul, atman, a unit of Consciousness), the object of perception (the material existence), and perception (the conditioned soul with the individual state of mind, individual awareness)
9. Correspondingly, all intentions (will to know and will to do), all knowledge (to perform a willed action), and all activities (whether pre-programmed or with intention and knowledge) take place in Consciousness.
10. All living beings have a mind (the subtle body), the interface between the physical body and the individual consciousness. It is the mind which filters perception based on its quality and conditioning. If there were no mind, there would be matter and Consciousness.
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Fifth International Conference
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August 18—19, 2017
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--Laj UtrejaDirector, Institute of Global Harmony, Ph.D.
Gandhi Vidya Mandir, Sardarshahr, Rajasthan, India
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Ram, Bruno--
Somehow this personal note of Ram's got onto the list -- I see nothing from Vinod ji below. But, inasmuch as I missed Bruno Marchal's post, I'll take this opportunity to reply to it after a brief question.
Ram -- what do you say to inflation theories which violate the law of conservation by attributing strange properties to the "false vacuum," not the quantum vacuum?
Bruno -- you are quite right to distinguish between the thing itself and any theory of the thing. The most vocal materialistic supporters of evolution unguided by any consciousness are highly prone to confusing "evolution" with "evolutionary theory" and acting as though evidence for the former is really evidence for the latter. This acting is foolish even on a purely scientific level: while there is a well developed theory of microevolution (evolution within populations), the development of a theory of macroevolution is still in its embryonic stage.
On the other hand, I am a bit at a loss as to how to interpret the term "number consiousness" despite the fact that I have been a professor of mathematics here for over half my life!
Peter Nyikos
Department of Mathematics
University of South Carolina
From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com]
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Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
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Bruno quoted :"A quasi operational definition is that a digital mechanist accept the proposition of its doctor to have an artificial brain or body emulable by a computer at some level of description (perhaps at the level string theory + quantum dynamics (known to be Turing emulable))."Vinod -- Computationalism, may be of any sophisticated degree, represent only a slice of human mind.
A large territory of our mind still remains unexplored.
It is not possible to even enlist, parameterize, quantify and measure all the "elements" which constitute mind, if we take reductionist view of the mind. Only some of the aspects of mind can be represented by computationalism and computers. Therefore none of the comutationalism or computers or AI can represent human mind in toto.
Second aspect is that human mind and consciousness are distinct entities Consciousness is the one due to which brain and mind get functioning ability to perform.
And these functions are also experienced/perceived by consciousness. So whatever little part of the mind has been mapped in computers via brain is not consciousness but that part of the mind and brain which is "computable".
Mind and brain are also distinct entities. It is not necessary that all the territory of the mind is necessarily reflectable at the brain
Vinod Sehgal
On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:56 PM, priyedarshi jetli <pje...@gmail.com> wrote:
Obviously not as your one liner is the question and answer in itself. To me it is a nonsense statement.
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
Can you conceive a theory outside of consciousness ?
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-Vinod Sehgal <vinodse...@gmail.com> on April 27, 2017:>A large territory of our mind still remains unexplored. It is not>possible to even enlist, parameterize, quantify and measure all>the "elements" which constitute mind, if we take reductionist>view of the mind. Only some of the aspects of mind can be>represented by computationalism and computers. Therefore none>of the comutationalism or computers or AI can represent human> mind in toto.[S.P.] Here, I should agree with Vinod's general understanding of the problem (however I disagree with his usage of such terms as consciousness and mind).In my reply to Bruno Marchal on April 14, 2017 I wrote: "I assume that consciousness can work as in sub-conscious regime, normal everyday regime, so in ultra-conscious regime. Yes, while functioning in its normal everyday regime, our consciousness performs computations akin a computer machine -- we come to new ideas being based on formal logic and cause-effect relations. But, performing machine-like computations is not all (is far from being all) that there is to the activity of consciousness.Computationalism-based solution to AI problem is unrealizable in principle because computationalism does not take into consideration the mentioned above sub-conscious and ultra-conscious regimes of the activity of consciousness."
Also, in my reply to Bruno Marchal on April 16, 2017 I wrote: "I assume that consciousness can function in three regimes, and, if the problem of AI is solved, the complex system will be able to function in these three regimes too, which may lead to unpredictable repercussions."
(I will reply to other Vinod's questions expressed in his earlier posts later.)Kindly,Serge Patlavskiy
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 4:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Bruno quoted :"A quasi operational definition is that a digital mechanist accept the proposition of its doctor to have an artificial brain or body emulable by a computer at some level of description (perhaps at the level string theory + quantum dynamics (known to be Turing emulable))."Vinod -- Computationalism, may be of any sophisticated degree, represent only a slice of human mind. A large territory of our mind still remains unexplored. It is not possible to even enlist, parameterize, quantify and measure all the "elements" which constitute mind, if we take reductionist view of the mind. Only some of the aspects of mind can be represented by computationalism and computers. Therefore none of the comutationalism or computers or AI can represent human mind in toto.Second aspect is that human mind and consciousness are distinct entities Consciousness is the one due to which brain and mind get functioning ability to perform. And these functions are also experienced/perceived by consciousness. So whatever little part of the mind has been mapped in computers via brain is not consciousness but that part of the mind and brain which is "computable".Mind and brain are also distinct entities. It is not necessary that all the territory of the mind is necessarily reflectable at the brainVinod Sehgal
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it does not represent anything. It is a principle which is either true or false. We can study its consequences and search for testing them. |
Computenalism per se may not represent anything but its applications lie in representing different ontology. For example, 2+2=4 is a principle of computationalism but this can represent 2 mangoes+2 mangoes = 4 mangoes OR 2 dogs+2 dogs = 4 dogs OR 2 atoms+2 atoms = 4 atoms etc etc The second issue about computationalism which I wanted to talk was that all the present computationalism is the product of human conscious mind At the dawn of the civilization when human beings might have invented the very basics of computationalism viz number system 1, 2, 3, 4, .., the same should have emerged out of their conscious minds. Further, human beings, in all its probability, might have invented number system to identify some distinct ontology of matter. , but it could not come into existence without two priories viz conscious minds and some distinct ontology of matter. diversity of ontology. But this representation of diverse ontology is limited by the fact that ontology to be represented should be parameterizable, quantifiable, measurable, It is from this perspective, I had mentioned that entire domain of mind and consciousness being non-parameterizable, non-measurable and non-quantifiable can not be represented by computationalism |
A large territory of our mind still remains unexplored.
In fact, computationalism can be used to show that indeed, a large territory remains unexplored, and is larger than we usually think. Paradoxically, the internal psyche of the universal machine is bigger than the observable universe. It is not even nameable. Agreed.
It is not possible to even enlist, parameterize, quantify and measure all the "elements" which constitute mind, if we take reductionist view of the mind. Only some of the aspects of mind can be represented by computationalism and computers. Therefore none of the comutationalism or computers or AI can represent human mind in toto.
That is indeed impossible, and *provably so*. In fact, IF we are machine, THEN we cannot which machine we are. Saying "yes" to a doctor needs an act of faith. And reality is made bigger.
I would say that computationalism is the most anti-reductionist position. It refutes, and show that all universal machines/numbers refute the reductionist conception of machine and numbers. It gives them a soul and explains that it is not a machine. Here i disagree with you. Computationalism had taken birth from the conscious soul and mind, as elaborated at the aforesaid, therefore, it need not to give any soul to a machine.It is the pre-existing sould which empowers a machine that human machine is not a machine but a conscious entity or conscious machine if you want to use the word machine.
|
I can't agree more. There is no brain. I like to say that the brain is all in the brain. It is an appearance only, provably so when we assume computationalism. Physics will be reduced to machine theology, and so we can test it by comparing the physics "in the head of the machine" with the physics that we extrapolate from observation. |
Plesae see blow my reply to Serge on this issue (SP) wrote In my reply to Bruno Marchal on April 14, 2017 I wrote: "I assume that consciousness can work as in sub-conscious regime, normal everyday regime, so in the ultra-conscious regime. Yes, while functioning in its normal everyday regime, our consciousness performs computations akin a computer machine -- we come to new ideas being based on formal logic and cause-effect relations. But, performing machine-like computations is not all (is far from being all) that there is the activity of consciousness. Vinod - I agree that consciousness work in broad 3 regimes viz subconscious one in dreams or sleep, normal every day in awakened state and ulta conscious or super conscious in the state of Samaadhi or higher spiritual experience states. Yes, I also agree that in the normal conscious state, computations akin to a computer are performed viz new ideas based upon logic and cause-effect relation. But I don't agree that such computations are done by consciousness. Such computations in the normal awakened state are done by the mind-brain system with mind and brain having their distinct identities but working in close conjunction. However, the mind-brain system acquires the capability for computation functions due to consciousness and such functions are also perceived by consciousess. An analogy will illustrate my point of view. Laptop on which I am working and sending the message has some outer hardware of monitor, keyboard etc. Our physical brain is equivalent to this external hardware. But the real processing is not being done on monitor or keyboard. Real processing of data is bein done in the internal circuits constituting RAM and hard disc which is not visible from outside. Our mind is equivalent to the internal hardware having RAM and hard disc. Internal hardware and external hardware work in close conjunction with each other and in the normal conscious state work as one composite unit though basically have distinct identities. B Both the external and internal hardware are dead and incapable of performing any function
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-Vinod Sehgal <vinodse...@gmail.com> on April 27, 2017:>A large territory of our mind still remains unexplored. It is not>possible to even enlist, parameterize, quantify and measure all>the "elements" which constitute mind, if we take reductionist>view of the mind. Only some of the aspects of mind can be>represented by computationalism and computers. Therefore none>of the comutationalism or computers or AI can represent human> mind in toto.[S.P.] Here, I should agree with Vinod's general understanding of the problem (however I disagree with his usage of such terms as consciousness and mind).In my reply to Bruno Marchal on April 14, 2017 I wrote: "I assume that consciousness can work as in sub-conscious regime, normal everyday regime, so in ultra-conscious regime. Yes, while functioning in its normal everyday regime, our consciousness performs computations akin a computer machine -- we come to new ideas being based on formal logic and cause-effect relations. But, performing machine-like computations is not all (is far from being all) that there is to the activity of consciousness.Computationalism-based solution to AI problem is unrealizable in principle because computationalism does not take into consideration the mentioned above sub-conscious and ultra-conscious regimes of the activity of consciousness."Also, in my reply to Bruno Marchal on April 16, 2017 I wrote: "I assume that consciousness can function in three regimes, and, if the problem of AI is solved, the complex system will be able to function in these three regimes too, which may lead to unpredictable repercussions."(I will reply to other Vinod's questions expressed in his earlier posts later.)Kindly,Serge Patlavskiy
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 4:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Bruno quoted :"A quasi operational definition is that a digital mechanist accept the proposition of its doctor to have an artificial brain or body emulable by a computer at some level of description (perhaps at the level string theory + quantum dynamics (known to be Turing emulable))."Vinod -- Computationalism, may be of any sophisticated degree, represent only a slice of human mind. A large territory of our mind still remains unexplored. It is not possible to even enlist, parameterize, quantify and measure all the "elements" which constitute mind, if we take reductionist view of the mind. Only some of the aspects of mind can be represented by computationalism and computers. Therefore none of the comutationalism or computers or AI can represent human mind in toto.Second aspect is that human mind and consciousness are distinct entities Consciousness is the one due to which brain and mind get functioning ability to perform. And these functions are also experienced/perceived by consciousness. So whatever little part of the mind has been mapped in computers via brain is not consciousness but that part of the mind and brain which is "computable".Mind and brain are also distinct entities. It is not necessary that all the territory of the mind is necessarily reflectable at the brainVinod Sehgal
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Vinod Sehgal <vinodse...@gmail.com> on April 28, 2017 wrote:> I treat subjective experience in the state of Sammadhi as a subjective>evidence akin to empirical evidence in objective research.[S.P.] Very good! The key word here is "akin". When applying the first-person approach, every researcher constructs his own version of the theory of consciousness being based on subjective research data.In case I study own consciousness, there is no way for me to prove to others that I have got such or other data, for example, that I have got some premonition. In other words, the problem of intersubjectivity becomes topical, and some scholars even concludes that because of this problem the Science of Consciousness is impossible (see my reply to Priyedarshi Jetli on April 21, 2017).My solution here is that in case every researcher will construct his subjective version of the theory of consciousness by obeying the universal criteria of formal correctness, then the subjective versions constructed by different researchers will be compatible, and we will be able to come to a comprehensive version of the theory of consciousness. (This is Assertion 35 of my applied ADC theory; I mention this applied theory in my earlier post of today).Note: for the criteria of formal correctness see my posts on 1-09-2016, 20-04-2017, 21-04-2017. See also appendix below-----------------Appendix (the criteria of formal correctness)Whatever meta-theory, applied theory, a hypothesis, or a simple description my (or anybody's) consciousness constructs, they all(1) should not contain tautologies;(2) should not contain notion-metaphor transmutations (e.g., "power" – it is a concept in Physics, but being used in Psychology, say, as "power of imagination", it becomes a metaphor);(3) should not contain hypostatization (which occurs when something abstract is treated or represented as a concrete reality);(4) should not contain incorrect definitions (when the unknown is defined through another unknown);(5) should not contain multiplication of hypotheses (which occurs when the new hypothesis is being based upon the previous one, instead of being the result of generalization and systematization of research data);(6) should not breach Okham's principle (the most evident and simplest explanation has to be preferred);(7) should possess inner consistency (or, be formally non-self-contradictory);(8) should be rational (when the aim and criteria of approach correspond to each other).-------------------Best,Serge Patlavskiy
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
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Priyedarshi Jetli <pje...@gmail.com> on May 1, 2017 wrote:>So, I think we have to be cautious with Ockham's razor.[S.P.] Yes, the suggested criteria of formal correctness may seem to be paranoid. But, consider the following argument. We use an axe to cut wood, but, when performing operative treatment we have to use a sterile scalpel.Similarly, when a journalist describes some international event, the mentioned criteria may be ignored by him at all. But, when creating an explanatory framework explaining the mechanisms of consciousness, the mentioned criteria should be strictly obeyed. At any rate, my personal explanatory framework obeys these criteria, including the Ockham's razor.Kindly,Serge Patlavskiy
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Serge,You seem to have a very sophisticated theory. I will find some time and go through it through the past emails and your writings.In your criteria for formal correctness are indefinables admissible or does everything have to be defined? Also, in (vi) I would be a bit careful. Ockham's razor is more often misused than properly applied. The simplest explanations among alternative explanations is to be preferred only when it explains as much or as well as the other explanations to which it is preferred. Let me give a crude example. I could say that the cause of an earthquake is that the earth rests on the horn of a bull and when he gets tired he shifts it to the other horn (my grandmother told me this). Obviously a very simple explanation. Of course in actual scientific theories it is much more complex. I do not know much about any branch of science but I do know a little about mathematics. Poincare gave a proof for a theorem which was already proven and in a simpler manner than he did it. However, his proof was superior because its technique could be applied to other branches of mathematics. So, I think we have to be cautious with Ockham's razor. Scientific hypotheses and theories often have structural features that have an intrinsic importance even if they fail on Ockham's razor requirements.Priyedarshi
On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 2:44 PM, 'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote:-Vinod Sehgal <vinodse...@gmail.com> on April 28, 2017 wrote:> I treat subjective experience in the state of Sammadhi as a subjective>evidence akin to empirical evidence in objective research.[S.P.] Very good! The key word here is "akin". When applying the first-person approach, every researcher constructs his own version of the theory of consciousness being based on subjective research data.In case I study own consciousness, there is no way for me to prove to others that I have got such or other data, for example, that I have got some premonition. In other words, the problem of intersubjectivity becomes topical, and some scholars even concludes that because of this problem the Science of Consciousness is impossible (see my reply to Priyedarshi Jetli on April 21, 2017).My solution here is that in case every researcher will construct his subjective version of the theory of consciousness by obeying the universal criteria of formal correctness, then the subjective versions constructed by different researchers will be compatible, and we will be able to come to a comprehensive version of the theory of consciousness. (This is Assertion 35 of my applied ADC theory; I mention this applied theory in my earlier post of today).Note: for the criteria of formal correctness see my posts on 1-09-2016, 20-04-2017, 21-04-2017. See also appendix below-----------------Appendix (the criteria of formal correctness)Whatever meta-theory, applied theory, a hypothesis, or a simple description my (or anybody's) consciousness constructs, they all(1) should not contain tautologies;(2) should not contain notion-metaphor transmutations (e.g., "power" – it is a concept in Physics, but being used in Psychology, say, as "power of imagination", it becomes a metaphor);(3) should not contain hypostatization (which occurs when something abstract is treated or represented as a concrete reality);(4) should not contain incorrect definitions (when the unknown is defined through another unknown);(5) should not contain multiplication of hypotheses (which occurs when the new hypothesis is being based upon the previous one, instead of being the result of generalization and systematization of research data);(6) should not breach Okham's principle (the most evident and simplest explanation has to be preferred);(7) should possess inner consistency (or, be formally non-self-contradictory);(8) should be rational (when the aim and criteria of approach correspond to each other).-------------------Best,Serge Patlavskiy
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Dear Vinod ji,Since I spent time to reply, it might be worth only reading it. The major problem of God theory (the theist Sankhya plus Advaita) is that it does not provide any authentic mechanism to create a human being or matter from the manifested consciousness. The mechanism of Sankalpa, you wrote, is useless; you cannot create even a sand particle, no matter how firm sankalpa we have; just try it for your whole life and let me know if you can materialize any thing, forget about a whole human being.On other hand, the eDAM provides scientific mechanisms, such as co-evolution, dependent co-origination, co-development, and sensorimotor co-tuning. I agree that more researches are needed, but it is at least conceivable.I have started meditation seriously; my sadguru is my God inside me which is basically the name of Samadhi state as per eDAM.All the best!Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Sunday, 7 May 2017 10:07 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Respected Dr. Ram,In your previous email, you had indicated that you are no longer interested in responding to my comments since this involveswastage of time and that you want to concentrate on meditation. I had also concurred your views. Now if I start reading your comments and examine the same, this is quite obvious that I shall also send my counter-comments and this endless round of discussions shall never come to an end. Therefore, I resist myself from reading your comments. On your part, if you are satisfied with the metaphysics of eDAM, why should have I any reservation? That is your choice and sweet will. But on my part, I find many logical inconsistencies as well as the lack of any subjective and objective evidence in favor of eDAM. I am not a fan of Saankhya in any way. But I trust the ontological existence of the Astral and causal reality in nature and of the manifested consciousness as distinct from the physical reality of the baryonic matter and 4 forces of nature since this view is supported by a lot of subjective evidence of corroborative nature as flowing from the experiences in the state of Sammadhi. This is the major point of differences in our views and we have not been able to come to a consensual point despite repeated conversation of past more than 6 months. I view of this, it is better that we may agree that we disagree tin order to save us from the further waste of time. We should appreciate that we have not to involve ourselves any intellectual tournament where the question is of win/loss.One more important issue is that for treading on the path of the practical spirituality via the methodology of Samadhi, leave away examining the theoretical intricacies of different metaphysics, no need of knowing even the elementary aspects of any metaphysics at all. When we go into the issue of micro level scrutiny of various aspects of different metaphysics, our mind gets entangled with the theoretical aspects so strongly that we start ignoring the practical aspect. One more thing worth noting is that all the traditional metaphysics of the world were an aftermath outcomes of the actual findings in Samaadhi. In other words. experiences thru means of Samaadhi were the primary purpose and subsequent descriptions of such findings thru some language in structured format assumed the form what we call metaphysics.But, I think, it is necessary that we should know about the of the people in past and present who ascended the pinnacle of experiences in the state of samadhi in terms of nature and type of life they lived, methodology adopted by them, obstacles faced by them and how did they overcome the obstacles etc? This will provide us with some lamp posts and caution us from making the mistakes they committed in their life.Regards.Vinod Sehgal
On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Vinod ji,Thanks for your comments. Kindly see blue font texts of Section 3.7.15.3 of (Vimal & Pandey-Vimal, 2011) for my replies to your comments.Cheers!Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Thursday, 4 May 2017 5:59 AM, "'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com> wrote:
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Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] A critique of Vimal's idea of eDAM
Dear Serge,
There is a basic difference in the experiences as gained in the state of Samaadhi and model of the consciousness as built by the reserschers based upon some meta theory of his own. State of Samaadhi is like an empirical experiment, therefore, experiences as flowing thereupon carry the power of subjective empiricalism. Such experiences are subject to verification by the test of the reproducibility .
However, when a researcher starts with the model of consciousness, he starts with a set of axioms which you call as some meta theory . However, you treat meta theory as sacrosanct one to the extent it to be beyond logical and empirical scrutiny. For ascertained the correctness of of any applied theory of consciousness built by a researcher based upon some meta theory if his own, you have proposed a test of the formal correctness. But this test itself is a theoretical proposition without the support of evidence from any subjective or objective empirical experimentation. In view of this test of the formal correctness is not the final test for the correctness of a theory of consciousness due to lack of any subjective or objective evidence.
A theory in the physical sense of the theory can't be called a theory unless it provides complete explanatory and predictive mechanism for the emergence of a phenomenon. For example, in your framework, you define consciousness as the natural ability of living organisms to transform physical signals into new mental products of subjective experiences. From where such ability is imparted. As per your version, when living organisms acquires a lowest level of entropy, its entropy goes to lower and lower levels. But why living organisms acquires lowest level of entropy? There is no convincing explanation for this. In fact, it is on acquiring the lowest levels of the entropy that a system became a living organisms. So explanatory mechanism for consciousness is not complete and convincing in your framework. Secondly, there is no predictive mechanism at all. Suppose a subjective experience X is produced by signals Y. We can't predict if next time same X will be produced by Y or not? And if produced will this be same X or vary from previous X and to what extent. In fact concept of the predictability is redundant in the matter of consciousness since none of the subjective experiences can be parameterized, quantified and.measured. In view of this, no theory of consciousness can be built in the strict senses of a physical theory whatever has been built up are speculative frameworks of consciousness devoid of subjective or objective evidence.
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I had received another mail from you yesterday wherein you have indicated ADC as an applied theory from which you derive 4 levels of assertions viz D, GS, AT and MT. ADC itself being an AT should be based upon some MT. Therefore, how from ADC, a MT can be inferred?
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
From: 'Serge Patlavskiy' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd.B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.
Sent: 01-05-2017 16:03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/ 19420889.2015.1085138
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