Re: Dependent co-origination and conditions vs. causality: extended dual-aspect monism
Kushal Shah
Yes. That is why I keep on repeatedly mentioning about need for hard data about siddhis in presence of skeptical scientists. We cannot trust just book accounts or hearsay. As long as these are not available, siddhis will have the same status as mythological stories. Believe them if you want to but cannot base science on them.
Best.
Kashyap
From: Kushal Shah [mailto:atma...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 10:00 AM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>; Dean Radin <dra...@noetic.org>; Murty Hari <murty...@yahoo.com>; Siegfried Bleher <sbl...@msn.com>; Stanley A. KLEIN <skl...@berkeley.edu>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; sisir roy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; George Weissmann <georg...@aol.com>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>; Whit Blauvelt <wh...@csmind.com>; Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com>; Bernard Baars <baa...@gmail.com>; BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Dependent co-origination and conditions vs. causality: extended dual-aspect monism
Vinod, we can't really have a serious discussion based on popular notions.
Best,
Kushal.
_________________________________________
Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 5:35 PM VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
But the popular notion about the meaning of Anima , as prevalent in Yogic Community, is to become as small as an atom.
In the case of Aadi Shankar, it is his Astral body which had entered the King's physical body to know about the sexual experience
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Vinod, as I mentioned in one of my earlier emails, Patanjali Yoga Sutra mentions anima siddhi in verse III.45 but does not say that it is about becoming as small as an atom. It says anima is about achieving perfection of the body. But what 'perfection' means is not defined in this text.
Best,Kushal.
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 4:42 PM VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
These 8 Siddhis are also mentioned in Patanjali Yog Darshan and there should be no reason to disbelieve.
On Friday, July 20, 2018, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Vinod, please note that this definition of anima (becoming as small as an atom) is only reported in some ancient scriptures (not in PYS) and I am also not aware of any Yogi having reported demonstrating it him/herself or having seen someone else do it. Yogananda lists having seen several siddhi demonstrations by various Yogis but as far as I remember, anima was not one of them. Hence, even from the subjective experience perspective, there is very little evidence for this siddhi.
> Also, in Adi Sankaracharya's life, he once left his body to enter that of a King to learn about the sexual process. Why did he not simply transform his body into something else? He was by far the finest Yogi India has ever produced!
> No matter how enlightened one becomes, there is always some barrier that one cannot cross.
>
> Best,
> Kushal.
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 3:49 PM VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> During Anima, a human body may not remain a human body composed of atoms/molecules. It may transform to respective Tanmaatras as per the Sankalpa of Yogi. On withdrawal of Sankalpa, the Tanmaatras may again transform back to atoms/molecules to create a physical body composed of atoms/molecules. The Sankalpa of a Yogi carries great powers since it is derived from pure Cosmic Consciousness. It is the Sankalpa of pure CC which led to the creation of matter and physical energy as scattered in vast galaxies, stars and planets, So there should be no wonder if the Sankalpa of a Yogis, as derived from CC, is able to transform matter of physical body in Tanmaatras and vice versa at some localized small scales.
> All laws appeared in the universe at the primordial stage as per the Sankalpa of CC. When a Yogi makes a Sankalpa, as based on the power of CC, Laws at the localized level can remain suspended/alter./change temporarily to complete the Sankalapa of the Yogi. So Siddhis can't be understood as per the present knowledge and laws of Science particularly Physics. A crude analogy. When President Trump makes a Sankalapa for doing something specific in USA. which is out of conformity with prevalent Laws, laws/rules/regulations down all the hierarchical levels may alter/modified to accommodate the Sankalpa of Trump. And Trump is the head of Govt of a small piece of land on earth only
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 7:32 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
> Dear Vinod ji,
> Thanks.
> If you think that 8 Siddhis are not Yogic fiction, then please address Kushal’s comment.
>
> Cheers!
> Kind regards,
>
> Rām
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
>
> Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
>
> Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
>
> 25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
>
> Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
>
> rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal
>
> Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
>
> On Thursday, 19 July, 2018, 8:36:42 AM GMT-4, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 8 Siddhis are not Yogic fiction since Yogis possessing these Siddhis stand by high moral values of truth in Mansa, Vaacha, karmaas ( in mind, in speech and in action) in their entire life. The problem is with regard to the present knowledge of science which is based on an incomplete knowledge of nature and laws operating thereupon. With an incomplete scientific knowledge of nature of a fraction of the entire nature, it is not possible to understand Siddhis
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 5:21 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
> Dear Kushal,
> Thanks.
> If you are correct then 8 siddhis are yogic fiction. Do you agree?
>
>
> Cheers!
> Kind regards,
>
> Rām
>
> ------------------------------ ----------------------------
>
> Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
>
> Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
>
> Vision Research Institute Inc, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
>
> 25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
>
> Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
>
> rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal
>
> Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
>
> On Wednesday, 18 July, 2018, 11:13:57 PM GMT-4, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Ram,
> I don't think the human body can remain intact if reduced to that small a size.
> Best,
> Kushal.
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 4:26 AM Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
> The transition from quantum to quotidian
>
> As per (Folger, 2018), “The microscopic and macroscopic worlds do not blend seamlessly: the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics reigns over the first, whereas the second observes more logical “classical” rules. Physicists have long been stymied over the question of where one realm ends and the other begins, but upcoming experiments offer hope of testing different theories. One possibility, called continuous spontaneous localization, suggests that quantum probabilities randomly collapse into classical certainties. If true, these collapses would also create a sea of background vibrations in the universe that experiments could detect. […] Can a single macroscopic object be in two places at once? Could something the size of a pinhead, say, exist both here and there at the same time? That seemingly impossible condition is actually the norm for atoms, photons and all other particles. According to the surreal laws of quantum theory, reality at its most basic level defies our commonsense assumptions: Particles do not have fixed positions, energies or any other definite properties—at least while no one is looking. They exist in numerous states simultaneously. […] Really big things—meaning anything from a virus on up—always manifest in one place and one place only. […] Continuous Spontaneous Localization [CSL…] the collapse of the wave function to a single possibility is a random event, not caused by human or environmental interference. The chances of any one particle collapsing at any given time are extremely small, but in macroscopic objects containing multitudes of atoms, the collapse of at least one is inevitable, which then causes the entire structure to collapse. […] One idea—known as continuous spontaneous localization, or CSL—is that wave function collapse is simply a random event occurring constantly in the microscopic world. According to CSL, the chance that any one particle will collapse is extremely rare—it might happen once in hundreds of millions of years—but for large aggregates of particles, collapse becomes a certainty. […] If CSL is real, measurement and observation have no role in collapse. In any measurement, a given particle and the devices recording it become part of an immense quantum array that very rapidly collapses. Although it seems as if the particle went from a superposition to an actual position during a measurement, this transformation happened as soon as the particle interacted with the devices, before the measurement occurred. […] The CSL model, for example, predicts that the action of collapse imparts a slight jiggle to particles, creating an omnipresent background vibration that might be detectable in experiments. “The collapse [in CSL] is something universal for micro and macro systems,” Bassi says. “Every time there is a collapse, you move the particle a little.” […“]You’d still have many worlds for electrons or atoms—but not for the moon!”[ Igor Pikovski].”
>
> In other words, an atomic size (10−10 m) particle or smaller than it can be in more than one place simultaneously. Therefore, if you want to be at multiple locations simultaneously, you need to reduce your size smaller than an atom as it can happen in Aṇimā (अणिमा: reducing one's body even to the size of an atom: one of the eight yogic siddhis). Hanuman ji, Ganesh ji, Surya deva, Tridevas, Sai Baba of Shirdi, and many other Siddhi-attained yogis presumably able to do that and had the 8 siddhis; this may explain paranormal phenomena such as being at multiple locations simultaneously and then returning to normal size thru Mahimā (महिमा).
> This is what the eDAM speculates for the dual-aspect entities in the subtle world below Planck level (10−35 m), which is different from Sāṅkhya’s entities in the subtle world. The Sāṅkhya’s subtle entities 5 tanmātras, 10 indriyas, manas, buddhi, Ahaṃkāra, chitta, etc are precise as if they are classical entities; whereas as QM itself is probabilistic and a quantum state is composed of the superposition of many basis states; so they are blurry and have uncertainties. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that Sāṅkhya’s subtle entities are below Planck level. Most likely they are the non-physical aspect of a state of a mind-brain system, which arises because of the 1st person perspective of viewing; the non-physical aspect is inseparable with the physical aspect of the state of the mind-brain system. The eDAM subtle entities’ states also have the superposition of multiple basis states during A
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
> http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
>
--
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Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
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Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
Kushal Shah
Kushal,
Let me understand, KS: “we can't really have a serious discussion based on popular notions.”
What do you base your beliefs in siddhis on? If it is a particular book, you have to tell us why do you base your beliefs on that book rather than anyone else’s account.
Best.
kashyap
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Kushal,
I am following your discussion with Ram and Vinod on Siddhis with interest for sure. But let me interject one limitation from current knowledge of particle physics.
KS: “But the body can surely be disintegrated into energy, and a new body can be reassembled from pure energy.”
KV: It is true that E=mc^2, but that does not mean any particle by itself can be converted into energy! There are various conservation laws such as charge, lepton number, baryon number etc. So for example a single electron or a proton (charged of course) cannot be converted into energy. Its charge has to be conserved, even if there is violation of lepton or baryon number conservation. To annihilate an electron you will need a positron, to annihilate a proton you will need antiproton etc. Human body suddenly on its own cannot disintegrate into energy. If you find this it will be a sensational earth shaking and Nobel prize winning discovery!
Best.
Kashyap
From: Kushal Shah [mailto:atma...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 3:37 AM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>; Dean Radin <dra...@noetic.org>; Murty Hari <murty...@yahoo.com>; Siegfried Bleher <sbl...@msn.com>; Stanley A. KLEIN <skl...@berkeley.edu>; Vasavada, Kashyap V
<vasa...@iupui.edu>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; sisir roy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; George Weissmann <georg...@aol.com>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>; Whit Blauvelt <wh...@csmind.com>; Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com>; Bernard Baars <baa...@gmail.com>;
BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com>; Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com>; Ralph Frost <ralph...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Dependent co-origination and conditions vs. causality: extended dual-aspect monism
I can't think of any way by which the human body can be compressed to the size of an atom. But the body can surely be disintegrated into energy, and a new body can be reassembled from pure energy. So we need to change the language used to describe this idea. It's not about compression or expansion, but transformation. Systems with different length scales cannot function the same way.
Best,
Kushal.
_________________________________________
Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
On Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 12:52 PM VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
But perfection and going beyond all limitations of the body may also include making body as smaller as the size of an atom
On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Vinod, as I mentioned earlier, PYS III.45 decribes Anima siddhi as the ability to gain perfection of body and go beyond all limitations. Now what perfection and limitations mean in this context is not clear.
Best,
Kushal.
_________________________________________
Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
On Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 11:31 AM VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Kushal,
What is your serious view on the definition/concept of Anima? Please clarify and elaborate the same.
Vinod Sehgal
Kushal Shah
Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals