Dear Mr Vasavada, I went through your reply to Mr Bob and find it very fresh and interesting. I like your bottom-up approach rather than the top-down one. But I would like to hear your own interpretation of what "consciousness' is. Then we can settle whether it is so universal as you hypothesise. According to our ordinary understanding of consciousness, matter is abundant in the universe, life is not so abundant but still plenty, and consciousness is a faculty available in living beings in a minuscule percentage and seems to be somewhat developed in humans. Matter is a necessary condition for life but not sufficient, and life is a necessary condition for consciousness but not sufficient. For Vedantists to talk of universality of consciousness is a big flight of their own consciousness, but not true, I think.- Dr K Srinivasa Rao, Hyderabad, camp Cupertino.
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Dr. Rao: You may wish to look at Christof Koch's ideas on panpsychism (consciousness as universal, pervading the universe). Whether or not you agree, at least now, with one of the world's leading scientists on board, one cannot dismiss outright the possibility of consciousness being, as Sri Aurobindo wrote, "the fundamental thing in the universe."
On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 7:46 AM, Srinivasa Rao Kankipati <ksra...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Mr Vasavada, I went through your reply to Mr Bob and find it very fresh and interesting. I like your bottom-up approach rather than the top-down one. But I would like to hear your own interpretation of what "consciousness' is. Then we can settle whether it is so universal as you hypothesise. According to our ordinary understanding of consciousness, matter is abundant in the universe, life is not so abundant but still plenty, and consciousness is a faculty available in living beings in a minuscule percentage and seems to be somewhat developed in humans. Matter is a necessary condition for life but not sufficient, and life is a necessary condition for consciousness but not sufficient. For Vedantists to talk of universality of consciousness is a big flight of their own consciousness, but not true, I think.- Dr K Srinivasa Rao, Hyderabad, camp Cupertino.
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Dear Rao
You said 'a living brain is always anxious for information, it is gathering information all the time automatically by way of gossip or genuine knowledge. For this reason, we cannot conceive a " universal anxiousness".'
My confusion here may be semantic but I have no problem conceiving of a universal anxiousness - the mental state of a universewide consciousness who is anxious for the universe to develop in a certain way (North Korea to dismantle its nuclear weapons, for example, and other major aggressors to stop their evil terror campaigns).
On the contrary, I find your claim that the brain is anxious for information objectionable except as a mere metaphor. For me the brain is not a conscious thing in the sense that the universe is. It does of course contain a consciousness. In fact it may well contain more than one consciousness. Judging from how little of the data present in the brain appears in our conscious experience, we cannot constitute much of our brain's activity, and the anxiousness you attribute to the brain is certainly not one that we feel. My theory of what consciousness is suggests that the brain doesn't have a consciousness other than the ones like us that in my theory arise at the highly localized level of the single cell.
Of course you may only be meaning that the brain has an evolved tendency to gather information. Like every other functional aspect of the brain you will probably agree that this tendency is a product of natural selection fully formed from the properties and interactions of tiny particles. Those of us who attribute consciousness to matter are merely applying the same logic. For our highly organised consciousness to be formed out of the properties of tiny particles, those particles must have properties that combine to form the qualia we experience - colours, sounds, feelings, etc. Since we cannot conceive of such qualia being formed out of anything but simpler instances of qualia, qualia must be fundamental - an aspect of matter whose effect has, I suspect, already been documented by physics.
If this means there really is an intelligent consciousness experiencing everything throughout the universe, as I suspect, I think it is unlikely that such a being would go to sleep after creating its laws. It would after all presumably have created these laws for a purpose and would not, I think, want to miss finding out what they could produce. We should in fact rather expect it to participate in the universe's evolution (a claim that I think is supported by certain objective evidence).
Best wishes,
Colin
C. S. Morrison - Author of THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation.
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
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priyedarshi jetli,Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. The key point in my comment was that how 'we acquire knowledge' and develop higher states of consciousness isn't 'beyond the capacity of humans to know. It is facilitated by natural effortless transcending of all levels of thinking, feeling, and intellectualizing by systematic means in Vedic Yoga that had been lost and not available. Being outside the range of individual experience in the ordinary waking state doesn't mean beyond the capacity of humans to know--the capacity is inherent in the human mind. We can discuss it more if you like. You might look at a recent paper in the open access ejournal by Boyer and Hensley, Meditation as Transcending All Thought, which goes into it more deeply. Thanks for the question, and for considering this reply.RW (Bob) Boyer
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Srinavasa,What you say seems plausible. Knowing one's limitations is the key. In the history of philosophy we see this emphasized by Socrates, Plato and Kant among others. However, most of the discussion in this forum is about going beyond the limit of human knowledge and big claims are made about the existence of God and consciousness and their causal role. This is what Kant would call dielectic illusion, that is claims to knowledge of something that is beyond the abilities of humans to know. To justify such knowledge the only recourse is to appeal to some sort of divine interference.
And it always amuses me how we know that God made humans superior so that only they can know this, yet every life form is necessary for the survival of the planet.
In any case I see a paradox that even you might have to face. If you are going to claim that there is a God and this God is the final cause of everything or that there is a universal consciousness and it is supervenient over the physical, then how do we acquire knowledge of this since it is beyond the capacity of humans to know this as we hear repeatedly.
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Thanks for a detailed response. I like your turning on the head of Penrose's conclusion from incompleteness.
Turing in his famous paper long time ago also encounter the incompleteness problem and simply said that computers in the future will be able to prove incompleteness. Though it will take me to understand you technically, you are essentially saying that.
Now, if this is true, Turing's somewhat sarcastic remark is vindicated.
He said, so what if one smart human (God) is smarter than all machines, but any machine is smarter than the average human. After all it took many millennia for Godel's incompleteness to emerge.
I also think, as I mentioned to you earlier that the halting problem cannot be realized in humans due to mortality
whereas it can be realized in machines as they can build other machines to carry on the problem.
I do not know if this is related to what you are saying.Of course we can go beyond our limitations to know. I was being a bit cryptic about the definitive jump to the conclusion of the existence of a God or cosmic consciousness that is often made here.
Coming back to machines, it is interesting that Descartes thought of non human animals as machines without a mind.
Surely they have brains and they seem to operate on principles such as induction which humans also operate on.
A lot of work is done today on their cognitive abilities. In the end, if I understand you correctly, it is not a matter of 'superiority' but of completeness. Perhaps human have more completeness than other non human animals because they can build formal systems and prove completeness.
Yet, it is not easy for humans to prove incompleteness, which is a further stage of completeness.
But machines can prove incompleteness and the human proof given by Godel is also really a machine proof. So, it is the machine in us, like the machine in non human animals that is the computational mind that can prove incompleteness. What you are saying, if I am not wrong, is that without mechanism, incompleteness would not emerge and without being able to formalize the Godel sentence and then prove it we would really have an incomplete view of the universe.
In any case there can be a turning on the head of Descartes as well because he thoughts machines to be inferior to humans and thereby non human animals who were machines to be inferior to humans. Whereas as it turns out that humans are superior to non human animals because they are superior machines than non human animals and the machines built by humans is even more superior to the machine in humans and the machine of the universe of course is the most superior.
I like that because as a student of philosophy I have always felt that Descartes is overrated as the founder of Modern philosophy. In terms of methodology Galileo was more of a founder of Modern philosophy and he was also closer to mechanism.
That the universe is a machine and that our brains/minds are also machines is a match, as Leibniz would perhaps say, that is not surprising at all. It is not at all a matter of which came first or a final cause but of a simultaneity in which the perfection (completeness including incompleteness) emerges.
Sorry, I went into a stream of consciousness but it was spurned by your insights.
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Dear friends,Universal anxiety is driven by isolation from God/Reality/Truth
Please see Jon Rappoport's new discussion blog on the great vision and sad reality of technocracy:Social anxiety and isolation from God were driven from a simple logical error in 1935 that contradicted the earlier research findings by Prout (1815), Einstein (1905), Rutherford (1920) and Chadwick (1932): The universe is composed of two forms of one fundamental particle:1. The neutron: A compacted (e-, p+) pair2. The H-atom: an expanded (e-, p+) pair
On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 2:39 PM C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Dear Rao
You said 'a living brain is always anxious for information, it is gathering information all the time automatically by way of gossip or genuine knowledge. For this reason, we cannot conceive a " universal anxiousness".'