Re: Vedic 3-in-1 model interpreted in the eDAM

[Asingh2384]

Hi Vinod/Ram:

 

Matter, mind, and consciousness are one wholesome continuum without any discreteness or fragmentations or dualities or multiplicities of particle/wave, mass/energy, physical/astral/divine etc. The universal relativistic model represents total reality as a continuum at all sizes and masses from zero to infinity. Any given entity can be described in terms of infinite number of relativistic mass/energy/space/time states with size/mass ranging from zero to infinity and space/time dilating (V=C, V never exceeds C)  as per relativity. The apparent discreteness or duaity or multiplicity is purely a mind-construct or measurement-construct because of the limitations of mind’s thoughts and measurement process itself leading to the fragmentations in terms of particles of various sizes/scales and material/physical/astral/primordial domains.

 

The original spiritual masters of various religions have unequivocally stated the fundamental non-duaity of the ultimate reality without any discreteness or fragmentations. Both the universal relativity science and genuine spirituality completely agree in this non-duality of existence without any partition between the physical and divine. Any duality between them is caused by the limitations of the mind’s schizophrania, hence the spiritual practice recomments the complete dissolution of the mind in Samadhi (Zero Point relativistic state) to realize the Oneness or non-duaity of existence.  However, some later yogis or siddhas claimed their individual experiences and subjective varying inerpretations fragmenting and compartmentalizing the ONE realty into various sizes and domains.

 

In light of the above, the ongong and non-converging debate reagrding the multiplicities of Planckian, sub-Planckian domains, QM domain, astral space, particles, consciousness, mind etc are not only irrelevant but counter to the ONE wholesome non-dual scientific (relativistic) and spiritual fundamental reality. People could argue on these subjective mental-construct domains forever without reaching any concensus because of its departure from the fundamental ONE universal reality.

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Stanley A. KLEIN <skl...@berkeley.edu>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>; BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>; sisir roy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; George Weissmann <georg...@aol.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; G Srinivasan <gsva...@gmail.com>; Prateek Budhwar <p.bu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 1, 2017 4:27 am
Subject: Re: Vedic 3-in-1 model interpreted in the eDAM

Dr Ram wrote:

"Paranormal phenomena may be at and below astral level. All these levels are for a brain and all other entities, but at these levels, information can travel at v>c and may be non-local. Therefore, information can travel everywhere (within and out of brain) without any obstruction."

The brain is composed of neurons/atoms/molecules/elementary particles in the quantum scales -- all of which are in the scale in between 10^--6 to 10^-20. But the Astral plane, as stated by Ram, is in the range of 10^-36 to 10^-51. So there is a very wide scale gap between the brain and the Astral level. But Dr. Ram, on one hand, is stating that paranormal phenomenon may be at the end below the astral level( 10^-36 to 10^-51) while also stating that all these levels are for a brain ( 10^-6 to 10^-20). An obvious intra-contradiction.

___________________________________________________________________

Some things more worth considering.

i) It is only from email discussions with GS's that we have guessed that the ultimate lowest size of the Moola Prakriti Particle ( MPP) is 10^-51. Otherwise, GS has never indicated in a specific manner that 10^-51 is really the size of the MPP.

ii) Current Physics has studied, detected and verified empirically the nature comprising of quantum /elementary particles from the macro level to micro/quantum scales up to the size of 10^-20. Below this scale, if nature is of particle or non-particle nature is any body's guess. I am also guessing and you are also equally guessing that nature below the quantum /micro scale ( up to 10^-20) is a particle in nature.

iii) Within the scale range of 10^-21 to 10^-34, you have included strings, branes, strong electroweak quantum fields (GUF), quantum gravity etc. But all these are the part of  scientific hypothesis and lack any empirical pieces of evidence

Then in theoretical hypothetical models of Science, strings and branes are not particles. In view of this, it may not be appropriate to place these entities in particle size having scales in between 10^-20 to 10^-34.

iv) you have proposed the given chart based on the hypothesis that all the entities from UF till macro scale are having a dual aspect of physical and mental in each and every discrete entity. That is why you have indicated of the presence of mental aspect even in the inert entities. But this view is neither supported by any empirical scientific evidence nor from the subjective evidence Samaadhi state experiences by any Yogi/Sage of any spiritual tradition.

v) Even if at the   most primordial level ,  Brahman is of dual aspect as per Chita Achita Vishitha Vedanta, this does not means that Brahman also descends  down along with each and every matter/energy particle and undergoes thru the same transformational/transmutational process as the discrete matter and energy particles go thru

vi) Dr Rober Boyer possess an extensive and intensive knowledge of Saankhya, therefore, he is in a better state to  finally comment upon. However, as per my understanding, which I have gained primarily by constant contemplating over the experiences of Swamiji in his books from the state of Samaadhi and as mentioned in his books:

a) The nature from the macro scale to the quantum scale ( macro size to 10^-20) is basically physical in nature and there is no mental content in it.

b) It is not clear if the nature from 10^-21 to Planck size  10^-36 ( having strings/branes/quantum gravity/GUF is particle in nature or of non-particle type. Regardless of the fact whether it is particle or of non-particle, nature in this regime should be essentially physical lacking any mental content.

c) The nature at Planck scale 10^-36 to below and up to 10^-51 is what is indicated by the Astral and causal realm of nature. This includes Manas, Buddhi, Indriyaas, Chitta, Ahmkaaras, Tanmaatras, etc. This is this part of nature which constitutes a MIND. This part of nature comprises of only mental aspect and NO physical content with physical as is understood and interpreted in the current science/physics Here one thing  worth noting should be that here MIND DOES NOT INCLUDE CONSCIOUSNESS but only that part of the mental aspect what you call MENTAL FUNCTONS in eDAM. 

Another point worth noting is that though this region of nature in the range of 10^-36 to 10^-51 ( Astral and Causal realms) is termed as Mind and serves all the functions of mind but it is basically physical in nature since this is the derivative of Moola Prakriti which is primarily physical in nature. Here the broad connotation of physical is the one having no innate consciousness of own and non-physical as the one having its own innate fundamental consciousness ( Purusha/Brahman/UF)

vii) At the most primordial level, Moola prakriti ( nature) exist at the most subtlest level which might be in the range of 10^-51, as you and I are guessing. As the creation commences, Moola Prakriti starts undergoing a sequence  of  transformation changes. In the process of transformational process, the subtlest MPPs at 10^-51 start aggregating to gross and grosser particles. When the transformational aggregation reaches the the range  within 10^-51 to 10^-36, the particles in this range aggregate and produce the phenomenal reality of the astral and causal realms of nature having  Manas, Buddhi, Chitta, Ahmkaras, Tanmaatras etc ( A broad MIND)

When nature further undergoes transformational aggregation and aggregation reaches the scale range of 10^-35 to 10^-20, strings, branes, quantum garvity, GUF are borne which are essentially physical in nature and lack any mental content

When the transformation of nature reaches further to the grosser level in  the range of  10-20 to 10^-10, elementary particles, atoms and molecules are born which primarily serves the physical functions and  don't serve any mental content

This is this part of nature what is called the Physical world.

viii) From the above scheme of things, one can also understand that there is nothing like any

continuous field, like the e.m field and as hypothesized by scientist. Scientists also hypothesize that it is by the excitation of a continuous field that take birth. And this should be right since though scientists hypothesize the existence of some continuous field but they are unable to indicate/infer about the ontological single entity which constitute a continuous field.

A continuous field should essentially be an aggregation of more subtle particles. When the subtler particles aggregate ( a process what scientist call excitation of the field), some grossser partyicles emanate out 

viii) From the above scheme of things, the Astral and Causal worlds/bodies take birth much prior to the creation of the physical world. when the universe dissolves at the time of grand destruction, it is the physical world which is destructed first. So before the physical bodies of the sentient beings appear at earth, their Astral bodies in the Astral world are already in position. And it is these Astral bodies which circulate from birth to birth in the  endless cycle of birth/death.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Bob,

 

Thanks. I completed reading your chapters 4 and 6, which are excellent. Please let me know if I misunderstood and if you agree.

 

The following working hypothesis in the eDAM is derived from the Vedic 3-in-1 model of (Boyer, 2018).Ch.6 with some modifications: One could argue for 3 levels for entities: gross, subtle, and subtlest levels. They are elaborated in the following chart derived from (Boyer, 2018).

 

 

----- Gross Level: Dual-aspect information in Macro Classical to Micro Quantum entities -----

Dual-aspect information in macro classical to micro quantum entities

Physical aspect: Physical bodies: Mahābhūtas (Infinity to ultra-macroscopic to microscopic to elementary particles to Planck Level (10^-35 m)

Mental aspect: latent for non-living systems; the degree of manifestation of mental aspect varies with entities and their states

Dual-aspect Gross sensory environment (Explicate Order)

(Infinity to ultra-macroscopic)

(Ultra-macroscopic to ~10^-5 m)                                                            

Physical aspect: Brain/body and electrochemical cellular processes and mental aspect: experiences and functions                         

(Microscopic ~10^{– 6} to ~10^–10 m)                                                                                                          

Dual-aspect atomic/ sub-atomic processes                                                       

(Ultra-microscopic ~10^–11 to ~10 ^–34 m)                                                                                                                                  

Dual-aspect Quantum force-particle fields

    Dual-aspect Electro-weak quantum field (Standard model)

    Dual-aspect Strong electro-weak quantum field (Grand unification model)

Dual-aspect Quantum gravity

     Dual-aspect Strings and branes                                                                                                                                                                        

Dual-aspect Planck to one order below Planckian level (10^-35-10^-36 m)                                   

     Dual-aspect Zero branes

     Dual-aspect Information field space

  

----------- Subtle Level: Dual-aspect Nonlocal Sub-Planckian entities ---------

Dual-aspect nonlocal, non-quantized, pre-geometric information space (dual-aspect Implicate Order: 10^-36-10^-51m level if subtle fields are quantized)

Dual-aspect subtle Sensory Environment

Dual-aspect nonlocal, non-quantized space

Dual-aspect Astral world (Sūkṣma jagat) with latent physical aspect

5 Tanmātras (rūpa/visual form, śabda/sound, sparśa/touch, rasa/taste, and gandha/smell)                                                                                                                             

5 Sense Organs (jñānendriyas) and 5 Action Organs (karmendriyas)                                                     

Manas (thinking)                                                                                  

Intellect (discrimination and feeling, Buddhi)                                   

Causal world (kāraṇ jagat) with latent physical aspect

3 Guṇas (Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas),

Citta/Chitta (memory),

Ahaṃkāras (Individual self or false ego)

 

--- Transcendent/subtlest Level: Dual-aspect Unmanifest Primal entity ----

Dual-aspect information in the unmanifested Unified field (UF) at the ultra sub-Planckian bottom-most level with Mental and inseparable Physical aspects: dual-aspect Super-Implicate Order

Physical aspect: physical bodies of Moola-Prakṛti (MP) = physical unified field (PUF: MP particle (MPP): 10^-51m level (Srinivasan, 2017) if transcendental/subtlest field is quantized)

Mental aspect: Universal Potential Consciousness Field (UPCF): Puruṣa-like (the experiencer, but can interact with other mental aspects), Causal and Astral bodies of Moola-Prakṛti (experiences and functions)

 

Information is inherently fundamental in all entities and its state is a dual-aspect entity. In other words, the unmanifested state of the information in the UF is a dual-aspect entity. The UPC field is the mental aspect of the unmanifested state of the information in the UF. The physical unified field (PUF) is its inseparable physical aspect.

 

Subjective experiences are ripples in or excitations of the ocean of Universal Potential Consciousness field (UPCF), which is the mental aspect of the information in the unmanifested state of the unified field (UF). Its inseparable physical aspect is the physical unified field (PUF). The ontology of the information is the ontology of both aspects.

 

In other words, the mental aspect of the information in the unmanifested state of the unified field is the UPCF from its 1pp (call it mental information) and the inseparable physical aspect of the unmanifested state of the unified field is PUF from the 3pp. Information is the same in both aspects; only the perspective of “viewing” is different. The 1pp and 3pp make sense if the unmanifested UPCF has self-referral quality and is self-aware, which is unknown as there is no objective evidence and Samādhi state subjective evidence is controversial. For example, theist Vedāntist yogis experience ‘wholeness’, whereas Buddhist meditators experience emptiness/void (Śūnyatā) at ‘Nirvikalpa Samādhi state’ and ‘Nirvāṇa state’, respectively. Alternatively, both aspects should be considered latent (hidden and unexpressed) at the unmanifested state; this is close to Neutral Monism, where there is a neutral entity (neither physical nor mental, i.e., they are latent) from which both aspects manifest.  

 

All the laws are inherent in the UF. If it is correct then UF may be self-referral and aware of itself from which both aspects inter-dependently co-arise and then co-evolve. Perhaps, the interactive experiencer in the UPC is Puruṣa-like (or equivalent). The ultra sub-Planckian Moola-Prakriti particles (MPP) may be at 10^-51 m level if PUF is quantized. Perhaps, causal and astral fields are between MPP and Planck level.

 

The physical aspect of the information in the unmanifested state of the unified field includes the physical bodies of Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya. The inseparable mental aspect of the unmanifested state of the unified field includes the Puruṣa-like experiencer (self) of Sāṅkhya and the astral and causal bodies of Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya.

 

Paranormal phenomena may be at and below astral level. All these levels are for a brain and all other entities, but at these levels, information can travel at v>c and may be non-local. Therefore, information can travel everywhere (within and out of brain) without any obstruction.

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Thursday 23 November 2017, 1:21:34 AM IST, Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com> wrote:

1.       Re: ‘initial manifestation.’  In 2010 I published “Think Outside the Bang,” which has more detail on progress from ‘reductive’ big bang to ‘holistic’ Vedic cosmology. In a holistic view, nature manifests ‘top-down,’ from the ‘perfectly orderly’ unified field of all the laws of nature (super-symmetric, balanced Samhita of three gunas) to subtle and gross relative:

highest order/interdependent to lowest order/independent phenomenal levels.

This might better be characterized as a ‘big condensation’ from the infinite eternal totality, rather than a ‘big bang’ from nothing. In this view, it would seem that ‘big bang’ models would relate to bangs and crunches in gross physical spacetime (the explicate order, the mahabhutas (the minor pralaya in Vedic literature?). The big bang model of 13.8 billion years since ‘initial manifestation’ would be in this context, compared to eternal cycles in Vedic literature. (This doesn’t address your points of an ‘initial cycle,’ or ‘a set of liberated souls = God.’; or miracles of ‘Sai Baba of Shirdi’—though important to consider in another context/time.)

2.       Yes

3.       Generally, yes.

4.       The ‘precise mechanisms’ are not described using current modern scientific terminology, but are in Veda. The term I’ve suggested of ‘phenomenal emergence’ is not based on idealism, but rather relates to the phenomenal, sequential manifestation of levels of nature from the subtlest to the grossest, in Veda—that is, the sequence of expressions of the laws of nature.

5.       Modern scientists are trying to describe the precise mechanics, and Vedic scientists are also—and these two approaches are starting to link up. But there is a long way to go, both to describe them in mathematical and other language symbols, as well as, in more definitive validation, to experience the mechanics directly in higher states of consciousness--as Vedic sounds/forms. Sankhya helps get the ontology more precise, and Yoga helps the epistemology for direct empirical experience—while also improving reasoning and sensory experience (the two means to gain knowledge in modern science) at each stage of higher progress. Are we getting a little closer? I don’t mean to be vague here; I’m trying to summarize the overall, global view. If you can give an example of a description of ‘precise mechanisms’ that would be more satisfying, I may be able to be more specific.

 

Best wishes,

Bob

 

[Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal]

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Please recheck: it is not 10^-6 to 10^-20 m: where did you get this 10^-20 m from (any reference)? Instead, it is 10^-6 to 10^-34 m for micro to ultra-micro. However, QM goes down up to 10^-36 m (one order below Planck level). Therefore, the astral level should be below 10^-36 m. So there is no contradiction. Why do you think that a brain is any different from other entities for the purpose of ultra-macro to deepest UF? They are for within a brain, but it could be for all entities/fields ubiquitously. The whole point is that relevant information can flow thru astral/causal sub-Planckian levels throughout the universe without any obstruction, such as a skull at macro level for EM wave mentioned by Stan (Klein). Of course, there is no crystal clear objective evidence. It is just a working hypothesis, which will change as we have objective/subjective evidence in future.

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Saturday 2 December 2017, 12:22:53 AM IST, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Vinod ji,

 

Please recheck: it is not 10^-6 to 10^-20 m: where did you get this 10^-20 m from (any reference)? Instead, it is 10^-6 to 10^-34 m for micro to ultra-micro. However, QM goes down up to 10^-36 m (one order below Planck level). Therefore, the astral level should be below 10^-36 m. So there is no contradiction. Why do you think that a brain is any different from other entities for the purpose of ultra-macro to deepest UF? They are for within a brain, but it could be for all entities/fields ubiquitously. The whole point is that relevant information can flow thru astral/causal sub-Planckian levels throughout the universe without any obstruction, such as a skull at a macro level for EM wave mentioned by Stan (Klein). Of course, there is no crystal clear objective evidence. It is just a working hypothesis, which will change as we have objective/subjective evidence in future.

Cheers!

Kind regards,

Rām

----------------------------------------------------------

Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.

Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)

Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.

25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA

Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907

rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 

Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools

On Friday 1 December 2017, 11:52:29 PM IST, 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Hi Vinod/Ram:

 

Matter, mind, and consciousness are one wholesome continuum without any discreteness or fragmentations or dualities or multiplicities of particle/wave, mass/energy, physical/astral/divine etc. The universal relativistic model represents total reality as a continuum at all sizes and masses from zero to infinity. Any given entity can be described in terms of infinite number of relativistic mass/energy/space/time states with size/mass ranging from zero to infinity and space/time dilating (V=C, V never exceeds C)  as per relativity. The apparent discreteness or duaity or multiplicity is purely a mind-construct or measurement-construct because of the limitations of mind’s thoughts and measurement process itself leading to the fragmentations in terms of particles of various sizes/scales and material/physical/astral/primordial domains.

 

The original spiritual masters of various religions have unequivocally stated the fundamental non-duaity of the ultimate reality without any discreteness or fragmentations. Both the universal relativity science and genuine spirituality completely agree in this non-duality of existence without any partition between the physical and divine. Any duality between them is caused by the limitations of the mind’s schizophrania, hence the spiritual practice recomments the complete dissolution of the mind in Samadhi (Zero Point relativistic state) to realize the Oneness or non-duaity of existence.  However, some later yogis or siddhas claimed their individual experiences and subjective varying inerpretations fragmenting and compartmentalizing the ONE realty into various sizes and domains.

 

In light of the above, the ongong and non-converging debate reagrding the multiplicities of Planckian, sub-Planckian domains, QM domain, astral space, particles, consciousness, mind etc are not only irrelevant but counter to the ONE wholesome non-dual scientific (relativistic) and spiritual fundamental reality. People could argue on these subjective mental-construct domains forever without reaching any concensus because of its departure from the fundamental ONE universal reality.

 

Best Regards

Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

Alumni, MIT

Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
To: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Stanley A. KLEIN <skl...@berkeley.edu>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>; BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>; sisir roy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; George Weissmann <georg...@aol.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; G Srinivasan <gsva...@gmail.com>; Prateek Budhwar <p.bu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 1, 2017 4:27 am
Subject: Re: Vedic 3-in-1 model interpreted in the eDAM

Dr Ram wrote:

"Paranormal phenomena may be at and below astral level. All these levels are for a brain and all other entities, but at these levels, information can travel at v>c and may be non-local. Therefore, information can travel everywhere (within and out of brain) without any obstruction."

The brain is composed of neurons/atoms/molecules/ elementary particles in the quantum scales -- all of which are in the scale in between 10^--6 to 10^-20. But the Astral plane, as stated by Ram, is in the range of 10^-36 to 10^-51. So there is a very wide scale gap between the brain and the Astral level. But Dr. Ram, on one hand, is stating that paranormal phenomenon may be at the end below the astral level( 10^-36 to 10^-51) while also stating that all these levels are for a brain ( 10^-6 to 10^-20). An obvious intra-contradiction.

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[Dr Uma Banerjee]

Dear scientists,

That is the point mentioned by Prof. Mukho AK as ‘Supra Cortical Consciousnesses ‘ long before.

Regards 

UB

Sent from my iPad

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