Tushar and others RE: [Sadhu Sanga] cosmic mind
Vasavada, Kashyap V
I agree. There is no scientific definition of cosmic mind, Tao or Brahman. In fact Rishis describe Brahman as “Neti Neti’ ( Not this, Not this)! As I expressed in my article which was posted on this blog, this is exactly similar to the difficulty which physicists find in describing theories of modern physics in terms of ordinary human languages. Remember all the discussions on this blog about theory of relativity and quantum theory! They are just not intuitive! But at least physicists have a way out. Basically their job is to make models explaining experimental data (obtained by sensory means) and predict consequences for future experiments if possible. Mathematics has proved successful in the last 500 years in doing this, although human languages have failed! Whether that describes reality or not is a deep philosophical issue. Even believing that human languages (or mathematics) are not capable of describing cosmic mind, it is not clear what scientists should do to fulfill their mission. Should they give up the usual methods and start meditation? This is a difficult , unresolved issue.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Tusar Nath Mohapatra
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:14 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] What is Hawking's Mind of God?
Cosmic Mind is ordinarily understood as containing the secret of the whole Creation but in Sri Aurobindo's interpretation, it lies somewhere in between in the ladder of Consciousness representing the whole Existence. He redefines the ill-understood concept of Maya and fuses it with Myers' Subliminal and Vedic Hiranyagarbha to conceive an ever-emergent Supermind which is only an intermediary rung in the march of Evolution.
It's hoped that physicists here make some effort to know Sri Aurobindo's ontological formulations.
Thanks
Tusar (b.1955)
June 13, 2017
https://selforum.blogspot.in/2017/06/new-vistas-open-through-life-divine-and.html
On Jun 13, 2017 3:22 PM, "georgeweis via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Cosmic Mind is not strictly speaking a scientifically definable concept, as it points to (but does not describe) a realm that underlies all phenomena, but is the fundamental ground out of which all phenomena, all seeming individual consciousness, Everything, arises. Contemplative wisdom traditions like Buddhism or Taoism have been very clear about that (:the Tao which can be said is not the real Tao" etc). It can be realized by Enlightened Mind, but not conceptualized. Something more fundamental cannot be defined in terms of something less fundamental, and therefore Cosmic Mind (One Mind, the Ground of Being, the Source, the Tao, Buddha Nature, Dharmakaya, rigpa or whatever other names have been given to it, cannot be defined at all; Our task is rather to see how all the ten thousand things (phenomena) arise from it, which is the program of the Quantum Paradigm.
Your definition Jack, is not the definition of any mind or consciousness, much less of Cosmic Mind, as it in terms of mathematical entities which themselves have no reference to qualia/consciousness.experience. Your definition may, if it physically relevant, have implications for the structure of experience, but does not touch the essence of experience ("I am").
best regards,
George
PS: what is your definition, Chris?
George
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-----Original Message-----
From: 'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 12, 2017 1:36 pm
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] What is Hawking's Mind of God?My definition of "cosmic mind" is in terms of Popper-falsifiable real physics using concepts of Einstein's classical general relativity, standard model of cosmology and quantum information theory as extended by Roderick Sutherland.
Yours is completely different and is not scientific i.e. not Popper falsifiable
On Jun 12, 2017, at 7:58 AM, Chris Langan <ch...@ctmu.org> wrote:
Jack: "Kindly define the mysterious term, “Cosmic Mind”."
It's not mysterious at all, Jack. I defined it decades ago, and to a remarkable degree of precision.
On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:33 PM, Oliver Manuel <omat...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Creator's Mind is elegant simplicity, unlike the complicated and irrational creations of the human mind. Only an elegantly simple mind could create an infinite , cyclic universe out of two forms of one fundamental particle, that is far superior to the little finite universe made in a single imaginary "Big Bang."
Humility is required to experience the Creator's Mind. Atomic, nuclear and particle physicists made great contributions to science before becoming convinced that they were superior to others and therefore I unteachable.
On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 7:48 PM 'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
On Jun 11, 2017, at 8:44 AM, 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dear George,
Thanks.
1. Kindly define the mysterious term, “Cosmic Mind”.
The conscious cosmic mind is the pattern of PQM EPR "tensor/spinor networks" on our future dark energy de Sitter event 2D horizon "hologram screen" that used Yakir Aharonov's "Destiny Wave" to construct us as 3D hologram images. This is consistent with ER = EPR, but for traversable ER wormholes beyond where Susskind's head is at (no-cloning and all that) see papers below by Roderick Sutherland on the new PQM action-reaction Lagrangian at the deeper non-statistical locally retrocausal level of physical reality where God loads the dice in the Cosmic Casino.Back From the Future
A series of quantum experiments shows that measurements performed in the future can influence the present. Does that mean the universe has a destiny—and the laws of physics pull us inexorably toward our prewritten fate?
By Zeeya Merali|Thursday, August 26, 2010
Dispelling the Quantum Spooks--a Clue that Einstein Missed?
https://arxiv.org › physics
by H Price - 2013 - Cited by 13 - Related articles
Jul 29, 2013 - Submission history. From: Huw Price [view email] [v1] Mon, 29 Jul 2013 21:25:09 GMT (28kb,D). Which authors of this paper are endorsers?
A Live Alternative to Quantum Spooks
https://arxiv.org › quant-ph
by H Price - 2015 - Cited by 4 - Related articles
Oct 22, 2015 - Authors: Huw Price, Ken Wharton ... (even conclusive) news for spooky action-at- a-distance, and bad news for ... From: Huw Price [view email]
Can retrocausality solve the puzzle of action-at-a-distance? | Aeon ...
Sep 14, 2016 - FollowHuw. Ken Wharton ... FollowKen .... confirmed that the “spooky action-at-a- distance” that [Einstein] famously hated… is an inherent part of ... Huw Price was a young philosopher in Sydney at the time, and plucked up the ..
Tensor Networks and Entanglement | Quanta Magazine
Apr 28, 2015 - “Entanglement is the fabric of space-time,” said Swingle, who is now a researcher at ... A tensor network has a geometry, just like space-time.
Entanglement and tensor network states
https://arxiv.org › quant-ph
by J Eisert - 2013 - Cited by 35 - Related articles
Aug 15, 2013 - ... methods of entanglement theory applied to the study of quantum many-body systems, as well as of tensor network states capturing quantum …
1. arXiv:1706.02290 [pdf]
How Retrocausality Helps
Comments: AIP Conference Proceedings 2016
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
2. arXiv:1509.07380 [pdf]
Interpretation of the Klein-Gordon Probability Density
Comments: 6 pages
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
3. arXiv:1509.02442 [pdf]
Lagrangian Description for Particle Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics -- Entangled Many-Particle Case
Comments: 34 pages
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
4. arXiv:1509.00001 [pdf]
Energy-momentum tensor for a field and particle in interaction
Comments: 9 pages
Subjects: Classical Physics (physics.class-ph)
5. arXiv:1502.02058 [pdf]
Naive Quantum Gravity
Subjects: General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc); Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
6. arXiv:1411.3762 [pdf]
Lagrangian Formulation for Particle Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics: Single-Particle Case
Comments: 12 pages
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
7. arXiv:quant-ph/0601095 [pdf]
Causally Symmetric Bohm Model
Comments: 35 pages, 5 figures, new sections 12 and 13 added
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
I agree with you that an individual mind includes experiences, function, thoughts, concepts, and other mental construct. If we try to combine our 3 minds (your, mine, and Sehgal’s mind) as a ‘group mind’, then how and what do we can combine? Our subjective experiences perhaps cannot be combined except whatever we have common; for example, color experiences of a trichromat and an achromat cannot be combined; we need to keep both experiences in this group (such as redness of ripe tomato experienced by the trichromat and grayness by the achromat). However, where is this group mind located and what are the mechanisms of storage and recall? You may like to look at (Theiner & O’Connor, 2010) on the emergence of group cognition. The term ‘whole’ also needs unpacking.
2. There are over 40 meanings assigned to the term consciousness, which have been grouped in two functions and experiences as elaborated in (Vimal, 2009e). What meaning do you assign? Perhaps, you mean experiences and experiencer: is this correct?
3. It seems that you are implicitly using dualism and idealism, which you have already rejected in your QPI-QM article (Weissmann & Larson, 2017). How can we reify/congeal experiences, such as redness of ripe tomato into ripe-tomato-in-itself? There are about 45 interpretation of QM. How do we select one of them?
4. I am still unable to reject less mysterious atheist eDAM framework because it has a potentiality to explain all authentic paranormal phenomena. The survival of consciousness (i.e., experiences and the experiencer) after physical death is an easy interpretation of these data; it does not appear an empirical datum.
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Saturday, 10 June 2017 7:57 PM, "georg...@aol.com" <georg...@aol.com> wrote:
You are discussing here (based on two different paradigms), the question whether conventional objects or particles have an inherent mental aspect, or whether mental aspects on emergent from and depend on complex and very specifically structured processes systems interact in very specified ways (for example those we call animal brains and nervous systems).
My take on the issue
Don't you both agree that conventional entities like objects, particles etc, are, by their very nature as concepts, mental constructs and thus manifest in the domain of the mind, and hence in the domain of Mind (Cosmic Mind). As the conventional entities they are), they don't fundamentally "have" consciousness. You might object here that though the mental concept of "particle" doesn't have consciousness, the "noumenon", the objectively existing "thing in itself" that we are naming "particle" , can, and as you apparently believe, does have consciousness. But a self-consistent understanding of quantum theory has shown us that such particles (or any other reified entity, for that matter, does not objectively exist. The whole distinction between object and subject breaks down. So the conclusion stands: particles and other apparent objects do not objectively exist, and so they "have" no consciousness.
So then what about you and me? Couldn't the same conclusion (namely that we have no consciousness) be reached about any living being, which would then apparently reduce the whole argument ad absurdum, since we "obviously have consciousness" (you might add tongue-in-cheek "maybe YOU have no consciousness, but I certainly know I do ":-) )
Here we have to take into consideration the other insight reached by the above investigation of the foundations of quantum theory: namely that it is a theory of the statistical causal structure of EXPERIENCE, not of a (non-existent) objective state of affairs. The first answer (given by relational quantum theory and QB'ism), is that it is the experience of the specific observer whose observations are being correlated through Quantum Theory. This answer suffices to make quantum theory consistent (solving the measurement problem and Wigner's friend problem), But the price is that the description of reality is fragmented into individual INCOMMENSURABLE accounts. Every observer-participant is so to say living in his or her world. To restore wholeness (an intersubjective "we" account of the world) requires giving up the idea of a single Universe, and demands a multiverse. At that level the concept of a "Cosmic Mind" replaces that of individual observer-participants. We individuals are all dissociated fragments of that Whole, although we don't perceive that, operating as we do in an individual-centered paradigm. And we are deeply conditioned to identify with that fragment we call I or the small self.
So from that perspective, consciousness is an inherent quality, you might even say, the essence, of that Cosmic Mind. Our individual sense of identity; mind, and consciousness is derived from the secondary perspective that cosmic Mind has set up as "the individual". So now you can see that consciousness as the quality of fundamental awareness, the "I am", doesn't not belong to the small I, as much as the small I believes and experiences that it does. This insight and the paradigm which it defines is arrived at here from quantum theory and rational reasoning. But of course it is nothing new in itself: it is the essential insight of the perennial phiillosophy, of Vedic and Buddhist teachings and other contemplative wisdom traditions. These teachings not only state that this is the nature of reality, but they offer us a path of practice which can realize (actualize) this our true nature. and allow us to live us that (enlightenment.
The conditions necessary to lend the individual consciousness structures any degree of stability are the self-reproducing and -perpetuating quantum probability structures that we call our bodies, including our brains.
So now we can try to answer the question you were discussing: no, particles, objects including human bodies and brains don't "have" consciousness; they actually don't even have an ontological status at all, since they are reified abstractions. But of course they are related to consciousness, insofar as the "locus" where they "exist"is the conceptual (Platonic) space, within thought. And whenever the conditions (probability structures arise and are sustained that we call functioning brains and nervous sytems and bodies, than the familiar structures of human and other animal consciousness arise (cognition, perception, memory, intention etc). So we can say that the familiar appearance of individual consciousness airses whenever these strctures are operating, which is Vinod's point; except that it is inaccurate to say that these structures "have" consciousness, rather they are accompanied by the attributes of (individual) consciousness. And by the way, these structures are not necessarily "material", they can be "subtle" as in the case of the spirit domain etc
How does this make sense to you, Ram and Vinod?
Warm regards,
George
PS: if you want to learn more about this paraidgm, you can look up the paper I wrote with Cynthia Larson: here attached
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Srinivasa Rao Kankipati
On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 7:48 PM 'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote:
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
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Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
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Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
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Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Paul Werbos
I agree. There is no scientific definition of cosmic mind, Tao or Brahman. In fact Rishis describe Brahman as “Neti Neti’ ( Not this, Not this)! As I expressed in my article wdoing whahich was posted on this blog, this is exactly similar to the difficulty which physicists find in describing theories of modern physics in terms of ordinary human languages. Remember all the discussions on this blog about theory of relativity and quantum theory! They are just not intuitive! But at least physicists have a way out. Basically their job is to make models explaining experimental data (obtained by sensory means) and predict consequences for future experiments if possible. Mathematics has proved successful in the last 500 years in doing this, although human languages have failed! Whether that describes reality or not is a deep philosophical issue. Even believing that human languages (or mathematics) are not capable of describing cosmic mind, it is not clear what scientists should do to fulfill their mission. Should they give up the usual methods and start meditation?
Jack Sarfatti
George Weissmann
Sent from my iPhone
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George Weissmann
Sent from my iPhone
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
(All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
Princeton Bhakti Vedanta Institute: http://bviscs.org
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
Sadhu-Sanga Blog: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
Contact Us: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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