Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “In physics, a field is a physical quantity, typically a number or tensor, that has a value for each point in space and time.[1][2][3] For example, […] an electric field can be thought of as a "condition in space"[4] emanating from an electric charge and extending throughout the whole of space. When a test electric charge is placed in this electric field, the particle accelerates due to a force.” This implies that when the “Field of Awareness” (like an electric field) “permeates” Chitta (like a test charge), Chitta/Prakṛti interacts with the “field of awareness”/Puruṣa.As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “Quantum field theory states that all fundamental fields, such as the electromagnetic field, must be quantized at each and every point in space. A field in physics may be envisioned as if space were filled with interconnected vibrating balls and springs, and the strength of the field is like the displacement of a ball from its rest position.” This implies that “Field of Awareness” can be quantized at each point in space and each awareness is an experience what Chitta related to an individual has.If “Puruṣa always remains present in all the entities” or soul (localized Puruṣa) is present in all the entities of a mind-brain system and does not interact with them then it has to be the inseparable aspect of the entities (Prakriti). If they are separable, then they must interact for the soul to experience the objects. Simple presence is not going to do anything, such as experiencing the objects. This is simply because they then are isolated systems, which by definition, there would be no communication between them. If you like you can verify with any knowledgeable unbiased colleague. If you do not agree then let us agree that we have no agreement on this topic.It is too complicated to discuss darkness physiology here; you need to understand whole physiology by reading a book including how retina, visual system, SCN, and ARAS works. In any case, there are lots of interaction in CNS when there is no light. If you want, you can verify my claim with any knowledgeable physiology professor.Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical SchoolsOn Saturday, 5 August 2017 5:17 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Respected Dr. Ram,Thanks.Thanks. Let us discuss the first problem of Sāṅkhya. I will address your queries related to the eDAM later if other colleagues are also interested because I have discussed them many times with you.previous message also. Let me mention that once again. Two entitiesSehgal: You still fail to grasp the key point which I have been trying to bring out repeatedly. The Localized consciousness/soul is placed in Chitta in the causal body. Awareness being an intrinsic and integral attribute/nature of the consciousness, a “Field of Awareness” permeates Chitta or may be even beyond that. When the finally processed signal of any thought/experience is projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes in the “Field of Awareness” That is all. Why do you want to bring forcefully any interaction between the signal of thought/experience and consciousness when signal already exist in the “Field of Awareness” implying thought/experience is already awareized?Vimal: You are unable to understand what the term “interaction” means and what its implications are in the context of our discussion.I had my definition of interaction in the pure physical context in myare said to be in interaction in the physical sense when either they arein actual physical contact with each other, wherein some exchange of somethingactually, take place between the two OR they are distant and a signal of somephysical energy exchanges/transits between the two entities. Please keep in mind thatthis is the definition applicable to physical entities ONLY and not necessarily applicableto the conscious entities. If you have any other definition, clarify the same since firstit will ne necessary to arrive at some consensual definition of interactionLet us look at closely what you have written. “Field of Awareness”permeates Chitta”: the verb “permeates” implies “interaction”.No, in the aforesaid, you are mistaking and misinterpreting. Pleasedon't go after semantics and sometimes language becomes a barrierin expressing the intended meanings. When I used the words"Field of Awareness"permeates Chitta, I did not intend to meanthat this Field has any interaction with Chitta.What I intended toconvey was that the Field of Awareness just make its presence inChitta without having any actual interaction with Chitta ( with interaction asdefined above). Now for the argument sake, You can saythat "just making the presence" is also a verb. But wait, it was the limitation ofthe language to express some idea. Field of awareness actuallynever makes its presence in Chitta as part of some emergentphenomenon. It fundamentally remain present in all the entities -before, after and during the existence of all the entities.I hope the following analogy may help you to grasp the key pointif you are willing to approach the whole issue with an open andhonest mindset. When a closed room or some physical object say a pot is constructed,we can say that space has permeated or the room or pot. But neitherany action (verb) is done by space nor any interaction take placebetween the space and pot/room for its permeating/appearing. Thespace was present, is present and will present before the constructionof the room and pot; it did make any action to permeate in theroom/pot, there is no interaction between the pot/room and spaceyet space is present in the pot/room.So is the case with the localized consciousness having a Fieldof Awareness and Chitta.“When the finally processed signal of any thought/experienceis projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes inthe “Field of Awareness” ” The terms “projected” and “comes”also imply “interaction”.Did I use the words "projected" and "comes" for the consciousness?I used these words for the signal of thoughts/experiences and didI indicate that this signal is consciousness? It seems that you are commenting mechanicallywithout the application of the proper mind. And then "projecting"and "comes" in the "Field of Awareness" should also be understoodin the same way as any physical object is projected and comes inthe spaceIn all cases, none ofthem (such as "Field of Awareness"/Puruṣa and Chitta/P rakṛti)remain isolated.Please ponder over repeatedly the analogy of space and physicalobjects say a pot/room and slowly it will become clear how theField of Awareness or Purusha alawys remain present inChitta/Prakriti without any interactionJust replacing "interacts" with other words isnot going to change what is going on between Puruṣa and Prakṛtiof SāṅkhyaNothing happens between Purusha and Prakriti the way nothinghappens between the space and physical objects. Yet spaceremains present in all physical objects, similarly, Purushaalways remains present in all the entities and in Chitta to be morespecifically for the purpose of experience of any thought.Then I had indicated in my message also that it is NOT the Purushawhich ultimately experiences the thoughts. It is the localizedconsciousness/soul, which is an image of Purusha the way animage of the Sun reflects in water in a pond, which experiencesthe thoughts/experiences. Therefore, any experience by the localizedconsciousness/soul of any thought/experience does not affect thePurusha the way any change/modification of the image of the Sunin water in one pond does neither affects the Sun nor the imagesof Sun in innumerable other ponds/vessels.if we examine closely and carefully in an unbiasedmanner.Yes, if you will ponder with an open and unbiased mindset overthe aforesaid thoughts, you may become free from the misconceptionof any interaction between the consciosuness and Chitta/thoughts/Prakriti.Regards.Vinod Sehgal______________________________ ______________________________ _NB. But still you have not responded how we get the awarenessof the darkness despite the absence of any obvious interactionbetween the darkness and our brain/mind.Vinod SehgalOn Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 10:04 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:Dear Vinod ji,Thanks. Let us discuss the first problem of Sāṅkhya. I will address your queries related to the eDAM later if other colleagues are also interested because I have discussed them many times with you.Sehgal: You still fail to grasp the key point which I have been trying to bring out repeatedly. The Localized consciousness/soul is placed in Chitta in the causal body. Awareness being an intrinsic and integral attribute/nature of the consciousness, a “Field of Awareness” permeates Chitta or may be even beyond that. When the finally processed signal of any thought/experience is projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes in the “Field of Awareness” That is all. Why do you want to bring forcefully any interaction between the signal of thought/experience and consciousness when signal already exist in the “Field of Awareness” implying thought/experience is already awareized?Vimal: You are unable to understand what the term “interaction” means and what its implications are in the context of our discussion. Let us look at closely what you have written. “Field of Awareness” permeates Chitta”: the verb “permeates” implies “interaction”. “When the finally processed signal of any thought/experience is projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes in the “Field of Awareness” ” The terms “projected” and “comes” also imply “interaction”. In all cases, none of them (such as "Field of Awareness"/Puruṣa and Chitta/P rakṛti) remain isolated. Just replacing "interacts" with other words is not going to change what is going on between Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya if we examine closely and carefully in an unbiased manner.Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical SchoolsOn Friday, 4 August 2017 3:17 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Respected Dr, Ram,Thanks.Your thinking is not correct. The “intrinsic awareness as a non-emergent fundamental attribute in all the states” also needs interaction with the objects to be aware of. If there is no interaction then it is an isolated system without any communication, then how can soul or God be aware of the objects? Just saying that they do because it is intrinsic is a total nonsense.You still fail to grasp the key point which I have been trying to bring out repeatedly. The Localized consciousness/soul is placed in Chitta in the causal body. Awareness being an intrinsic and integral attribute/nature of the consciousness, a "Field of Awareness permeates Chitta or may be even beyond that. When the finally processed signal of any thought/experience is projected upwards in Chitta, it automatically comes in the "Field of Awareness' That is all. Why do you want to bring forcefully any interaction between the signal of thought/experience and consciousness when signal already exist in the "Field of Awareness" implying thought/experience is already awareized?I suggested reading physiology because you really need background what interaction means and what are its implications. Darkness also needs endogenous interaction within its neural network to experience darkness even if there is no exogenous (external) signal from the pitched darkness. When there are no light signals, only ‘cone’ photoreceptors do not work, but ‘rod’ photoreceptors start working in pitch darkness. In addition, ARAS system and thalamo-cortical system also keep on working and hence interactions between the components of the related NN occur during darkness.The key issue is not if cone photoreceptors or rod [hotorece[ptors work OR thalmocortical system work or not. Before the experience of the darkness also, thalmonuclear system was working So what special feature is added by the working of the thalmocortical system when darkness is experienced? Similarly, even if rod photoreceptors work, how it ensures that some interaction is taking place between darkness and rod [hotoreceptors?The key question is that you have been insisting that for having awareness of 'anything", an interaction should be established between 'that thing" and the consciousness via the brain and mind. I have been highlighting that when we experience "darkness", no interaction can be established between the "darkness"-- which is awarized by the consciousness and even the brain/mind, leave alone the consciousness.In the strict physical framework of the mechanism of interaction, for establishing any interaction between two things, a signal of some physical energy should transit between the two things. So if you insist that for having the awareness of "anything: ( darkness here), establishing an interaction between "that thing" and consciousness is must, please explain what type of signal can propagate from the darkness to eyes/brain. At the moment, I am speaking of an interaction between the darkness and eyes/brain and not consciousness. If no signal can propagate from darkness to eyes/brain, implying the absence of any interaction, how can a signal propagate to the consciousness? Please address this very issue in a frontal manner and NOT speak of other in-brain mechanisms which are not connected to the experience of darkness.The fact is that the consciousness, due to its very innate nature of "awareness", becomes aware of the existence as well non-existence, presence as well absence, light as well darkness WITHOUT any interaction. The "awareness" by the consciousness is not governed by the normal Laws of the interaction between matter/energy in the physical world, which you forcibly want to extend to the awareness by the consciousness also.The same goes for sleep and dream where eyes are closed and sleep, dream, or imagine in a pitch dark. Moreover, thoughts always entail interactions. In the NS state also when thoughts are minimized or zero, yogi’s system has endogenous interactions.The queries you listed as problems of the eDAM are all your misunderstanding and misconstruction of the eDAM. If you seriously want to understand the eDAM, first you rigorously need to read completely with the understanding of 5 articles: (Vimal, 2008),(Vimal, 2010a), (Vimal, 2013), (Vimal, 2015b), and (Vimal, 2016c). You need enough background in related sciences to understand them; they are technical stuff in these articles.I have read and pondered over these articles a no of times. On a no of occasions, I requested you to point out my misunderstanding/misconstructi on in a specific manner but you could bring out none of these. Now since we are discussing in a wide forum, with all my messages marked to 6 more participants also, it is better that you may respond to the problems of eDAM, instead of having a complacency, that this metaphysics is problem free and perfect or less problematic than other metaphysicsI am again replicating the problems of eDAM, as highlighted by me in my previous message as well many times previously but got no satisfactory and convincing response/solution from your sidei) There is no objective or subject evidence for the existence of any mental aspects with the physical aspects of the matter particles. The whole notion of the existence of any mental aspects with the matter particles is a speculative one.ii) The mental aspect is hypothesized as the Functions and the physical aspects as structure. But it is also hypothesized that the mental aspects don't take birth from the physical aspects. There is no logical and convincing explanation as to how the mental aspects manifest if these are functions and also don't take birth from the structure ( physical). eDAM's attempt to base the physical-mental aspects on the co-origination and co-evolution philosophy of Nagarjuna's Buddhist Philosophy of "essenceless" and "causeless" primordial existence is replete with a no of explanatory gaps/problems. I sent you a detailed message on the Structure_Function interface in Nagarjuna's Philosophy/eDAM a few days ago, pointed out a no of problems, but you did not respond.iii) In the primordial stage, both the physical and mental aspects are hypothesized in eDAM to exist in some common state of superposition. eDAM further hypothesizes that the physical aspects manifest in the CM by the collapse of the superposition but paradoxically, mental aspects continue to stay in the state of superposition. No explanation for this.iv) eDAM states that all our subjective experiences are due to the manifestation of some Potential experiences( PEs) in the mental aspects as inseparable with the physical aspects of the matter particles. Implicitly, this amounts to a high degree of superdeterminism in all the subjective experiences of all the people of the universe at all the times -- a highly improbable and bizarre situation.v) eDAM is based upon the Quantum Vacuum of the quantum physicists which is not able to explain even the physical aspects of the observable universe, leave alone the mental aspects.For the sake of brevity, I want to limit the above 5 problems only otherwise there is a no of other problems in eDAM which don't have any solutionNow I am adding some more problems to the above list of problemsi) We observe that we have a conscious self ( "I-ness") which remains invariant in the entire life from childhood till the old age, from birth till death. If the mental aspects of the conscious invariant self could be the manifestation from some latent mental aspects as inseparable with the physical aspects of the matter particles of the brain, it means there should be some invariantphysical NCC. But this is not possible since from the childhood till death, out brain undergoes continues change from moment to moment. Old cells/neurons are continuously replaced with the new one. Therefore, there can not be any invariant NCC corresponding to invariant conscious self.ii) eDAM hypothesizes that there is one mental aspect in the latent state with the matter particles which manifests in a functional brain only. But for this manifestation, eDAM has prescribed no of conditions viz the presence of the working memory, conscious state, attention. This is a paradox. All these are the part of the mental aspects which is hypothesized to manifest from the latent mental aspects. So the mental aspects which is supposed to manifest from the latent mental aspects with the brain particles itself have been made to exist in the functional brain!iii) eDAM hypothesizes that in the primordial stage, the mental aspect exists in some latent form for which the term Potential Experiences (PES). At the functional brain level, at the time of the manifestation, this mental aspect splits into two groups -- function sub-aspects viz thoughts, judgment, emotions. memory, planning, all perceptual and cognitive functions AND experiential sub-aspect which experiences all these functional sub-aspects. But there is no clear mechanism as to how the same mental aspects split into two different sub-aspects.Further, the conscious aspect which experiences is a constant, ever persisting, ever life and the mental functions are the shut on/shut off one-time phenomenon. How. both these differently sub-aspects can exist in a common mental aspect? No clarity on thisiv) eDAM postulates some theistic version of eDAM were conscious soul perpetuates after death. But eDAM fails to account for how it is possible within its key postulates. After the death, the brain particles disintegrate and scatter away. How from those scattered particles, any conscious soul can manifest since while in the living conditions, the conscious soul manifests from an aggregate of those scattered particles and that too when the brain is fully functional?v) eDAM hypothesizes that the mental aspect exists in some latent ( potential) format as inseparable with the physical aspects of all the discrete elementary and compound particles of the matter and energy in the universe right from the primordial stage onwards. The mental aspects is also governed by the same physical laws as governing the physical particles. The mental aspects also undergo thru the same transformational and transmutational process as the physical aspects. So ipso facto, there is no mental aspect but this is a physical aspect.In order to not to make the whole issue not so complicated, let me give a break here.Regards.Vinod SehgalOn Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:50 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.Your thinking is not correct. The “intrinsic awareness as a non-emergent fundamental attribute in all the states” also needs interaction with the objects to be aware of. If there is no interaction then it is an isolated system without any communication, then how can soul or God be aware of the objects? Just saying that they do because it is intrinsic is a total nonsense.I suggested reading physiology because you really need background what interaction means and what are its implications. Darkness also needs endogenous interaction within its neural network to experience darkness even if there is no exogenous (external) signal from the pitched darkness. When there are no light signals, only ‘cone’ photoreceptors do not work, but ‘rod’ photoreceptors start working in pitch darkness. In addition, ARAS system and thalamo-cortical system also keep on working and hence interactions between the components of the related NN occur during darkness. The same goes for sleep and dream where eyes are closed and sleep, dream, or imagine in a pitch dark. Moreover, thoughts always entail interactions. In the NS state also when thoughts are minimized or zero, yogi’s system has endogenous interactions.The queries you listed as problems of the eDAM are all your misunderstanding and misconstruction of the eDAM. If you seriously want to understand the eDAM, first you rigorously need to read completely with the understanding of 5 articles: (Vimal, 2008), (Vimal, 2010a), (Vimal, 2013), (Vimal, 2015b), and (Vimal, 2016c). You need enough background in related sciences to understand them; they are technical stuff in these articles.Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical SchoolsOn Thursday, 3 August 2017 2:19 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Continuation of prev email:... We need to convert dualistic Sāṅkhya into a version of dual-aspect monism. For example, Puruṣa can be considered as the experiential aspect and inseparable Prakṛti as physica l-mentalaspect (with causal and astral bodies as mental sub-aspect, and physical bodies as physical sub-aspect)Your aforesaid views/hypothesis are not supported by any subjectiveevidence ( as flowing from the reproducible experiences in the state ofSamaadhi Or any objective evidence as flowing out from any objective empirical experimentation . Furthermore, the whole concept of the presence of any mental aspectswith the physical aspects of the discrete matter and energy particles ( which is the centralfeature of eDAM) is replete with a no of logical inconsistencies. Vide my message as sent3 days ago, I had indicated some 5 problems of eDAM but you did not respond. Let be replicate those 5 problems again for your consideration and response.I shall comment only on eDAM and Nagarjuna's co-origination ( which forms the basis for eDAM). There is a large no of evidence and logical based inconsistencies in eDAM. I shall point out a few of these herei) There is no objective or subject evidence for the existence of any mental aspects with the physical aspects of the matter particles. The whole notion of the existence of any mental aspects with the matter particles is a speculative one.ii) The mental aspects is hypothesized as the Functions and the physical aspects as structure. But it is also hypothesized that the mental aspects don't take birth from the physical aspects. There is no logical and convincing explanation as to how the mental aspects manifest if these are functions and also don't take birth from the structure ( physical). eDAM's attempt to base the physical-mental aspects on the co-origination and co-evolution philosophy of Nagarjuna's Buddhist Philosophy of "essenceless" and "causeless" primordial existence is replete with a no of explanatory gaps/problems. I sent you a detailed message on the Structure_Function interface in Nagarjuna's Philosophy/eDAM a few days ago, pointed out a no of problems, but you did not respond.iii) In the primordial stage, both the physical and mental aspects are hypothesized in eDAM to exist in some common state of superposition. eDAM further hypothesizes that the physical aspects manifest in the CM by the collapse of the superposition but paradoxically, mental aspects continue to stay in the state of superposition. No explanation for this.iv) eDAM states that all our subjective experiences are due to the manifestation of some Potential experiences( PEs) in the mental aspects as inseparable with the physical aspects of the matter particles. Implicitly, this amounts to a high degree of superdeterminism in all the subjective experiences of all the people of the universe at all the times -- a highly improbable and bizarre situation.v) eDAM is based upon the Quantum Vacuum of the quantum physicists which is not able to explain even the physical aspects of the observable universe, leave alone the mental aspects.For the sake of brevity, I want to limit the above 5 problems only otherwise there is a no of other problems in eDAM which don't have any solution.Regards.Vinod Sehgal______________________________ ______________________________ ___Now I am adding some more problems to the above list of problemsi) We observe that we have an conscious self ( "I-ness") which remains invarant in the entire life from childhood till the old age, from birth till death. If the mental aspects of the conscious invariant self could be the manifestation from some latent mental aspects as inseparable with the physical aspects of the matter particles of the brain, it means there should be some invariantphysical NCC. But this is not possible since from the childhood till death, out brain undergoes continues change from moment to moment. Old cells/neurons are continuously replaced with the new one. Therefore, there can not be any invariant NCC corresponding to invariant conscious self.ii) eDAM hypothesizes that there is one mental aspect in the latent state with the matter particles which manifests in a functional brain only. But for this manifestation, eDAM has prescribed no of conditions viz the presence of the working memory, conscious state, attention. This is a paradox. All these are the part of the mental aspects which is hypothesized to manifest from the latent mental aspects. So the mental aspects which is supposed to manifest from the latent mental aspects with the brain particles itself have been made to exist in the functional brain!iii) eDAM hypothesizes that in the primordial stage, the mental aspect exists in some latent form for which the term Potential Experiences (PES). At the functional brain level, at the time of the manifestation, this mental aspect splits into two groups -- function sub-aspects viz thoughts, judgment, emotions. memory, planning, all perceptual and cognitive functions AND experiential sub-aspect which experiences all these functional sub-aspects. But there is no clear mechanism as to how the same mental aspects splits into two different sub-aspects.Further, the conscious aspect which experiences is a constant, ever persisting, ever life and the mental functions are the shut on/shut off one-time phenomenon. How. both these differently sub-aspects can exist in a common mental aspect? No clarity on thisiv) eDAM postulates some theistic version of eDAM were conscious soul perpetuates after death. But eDAM fails to account for how it is possible within its key postulates. After the death, the brain particles disintegrate and scatter away. How from those scattered particles, any conscious soul can manifest since while in the living conditions, the conscious soul manifests from an aggregate of those scattered particles and that too when the brain is fully functional?v) eDAM hypothesizes that the mental aspect exists in some latent ( potential) format as inseparable with the physical aspects of all the discrete elementary and compound particles of the matter and energy in the universe right from the primordial stage onwards. The mental aspects is also governed by the same physical laws as governing the physical particles. The mental aspects also undergo thru the same transformational and transmutational process as the physical aspects. So ipso facto, there is no mental aspect but this is a physical aspect.In order to not to make the whole issue not so complicated, let me give a break here.Regards and thanks.Vinod SehgalOn Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:Continuation of prev email:... We need to convert dualistic Sāṅkhya into a version of dual-aspect monism. For example, Puruṣa can be considered as the experiential aspect and inseparable Prakṛti as physical-mental aspect (with causal and astral bodies as mental sub-aspect, and physical bodies as physical sub-aspect). ...Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical SchoolsOn Wednesday, 2 August 2017 10:10 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.Sehgal (2 August 2017)
Above is OK that brain always continues to function from birth until death. If the brain may stop function, life may come to end. However, with this, consciousness and awareness will not come to an end. The same consciousness and awareness manifests in the new brain in a new body in a new birth BUT NOT MIND (with a due difference in the consciousness and mind as an aggregate of manifested thoughts). However, seeds of thoughts (Samskāras), mind as a structural reality of the Primordial physicality still, survives the death of the physical body/brain. ARAS system was working even before the awareness of the darkness. If you stick to the notion that for the awareness of any external system by the consciousness, some interactional mechanism should be set up between the external system and the consciousness, it means when our consciousness becomes aware of the darkness, some interactional mechanism should be set up between the darkness and our brain/mind/consciousness. In addition, for establishing any interactional mechanism, some signal of some energy should emanate out from the darkness to the brain/mind/consciousness. Now you may please explain which signal can emanate out from the darkness to the brain/mind/consciousness for establishing an interactional mechanism. One thing more, ARAS system does not create awareness or consciousness. It is like a shut on/shut off gate for the manifestation of the consciousness/awareness at the physical body/brain system. An enlightened yogi can have his awareness in the manifested state even without the ARAS system being in the functional form for the manifestation of the awareness but minimum vital parameters necessary for sustaining life should continue to be maintained.Vimal
Please read ARAS and sleep, dream, consciousness physiology for your queries. My point is that interaction is always involved. Therefore, in Sāṅkhya, the interaction between Puruṣa (in either parts or whole) and Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, and empowerment. This is a serious category mistake. Therefore, the association problem remains and hence we cannot use Sāṅkhya as it is. We need to convert dualistic Sāṅkhya into a version of dual-aspect monism. The sub-Planck level physics might be an interesting project but it is unclear how to link it to astral level. Many World Interpretation (MWI) of QM seems to use the concept of parallel worlds or multiverse, but it has its own problem and again it is unclear how to link it to astral world. The third clue may be String Theory, where multi-dimensions (more than 4D+1) are used, but how to link to the astral dimension is unclear.Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical SchoolsOn Wednesday, 2 August 2017 2:37 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Vimal: A brain is always working since birth to death; neural and physiological interactions always go on in all states of our mind-brain system including deep sleep, dream, wakeful conscious and Samādhi states.Above is OK that brain always continues to function from birth till death. Ifthe brain may stop function, life may come to end. But with this,consciosuness and awareness will not come to an end. The same consciousness andawareness manifests in the new brainin new body in the new birth BUT NOT MIND ( with due difference inthe consciousness and mind as an aggregate of manifested thoughts).However seeds of thoughts ( Samskaras), Mind as a structural realityof the Primordial physicality still, survives the death of the physicalbody/brain.Thus, interaction is certainly involved in the experience of completedarkness, especially in the ARAS system.ARAS system was working even before the awareness of the darkness.If you stick to the notion that for the awareness of any externalsystem by the consciousness, some interactional mechanism shouldbe set up between the external system and the consciousness,it means when our consciousness becomes aware of the darkness,some interactional mechanism should be set up between the darknessand our brain/mind/consciousness. And for establishing anyinteractional mechanism, some signal of some energy shouldemanate out from the darkness to the brain/mind/consciousness.Now you may please explain, which signal can emanate out fromthe darkness to the brain/mind/consciousness for establishingan interactional mechanism?One thing more. ARAS system does not create awareness or consciousness It is like ashut on/shut off gate for the manifestation of the consciousness/awareness atthe physical body/brain system. An enlightened Yogi can have his awarenessin the manifested state even without the ARAS system being in the functionalform for the manifestation of the awareness but minimum vital parametersnecessary for sustaining life should continue to be maintained.In Nature, there is always interaction one way or other in all living and non-living systems. I do not know any natural isolated system. This is known as Madhu-Vidyā(the doctrine of the mutual interdependence of entities) as elaborated in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad II.v.1-19, and in the Chandogya Upanishad III 1-5.Regards.Vinod SehgalOn Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.Sehgal: Another example as to how the consciousness can become aware of the 'others' due to its in-built fundamental feature. Of awareness without going into any interactional mechanism with some external system, you stay in a pitch dark room. You are aware that there is darkness in the room without any interaction of the darkness and your consciousness. Even if you would like to forcibly bring interaction in the experience of the darkness, you can't bring in the same. What is in the darkness -- which signal which will interact with the consciousness or even with eyes/brain/mind? But it is a fact that we as consciousness become aware if darkness without any interaction. So is with all thoughts and experiences.Vimal: A brain is always working since birth to death; neural and physiological interactions always go on in all states of our mind-brain system including deep sleep, dream, wakeful conscious and Samādhi states. Thus, interaction is certainly involved in the experience of complete darkness, especially in the ARAS system. In Nature, there is always interaction one way or other in all living and non-living systems. I do not know any natural isolated system. This is known as Madhu-Vidyā (the doctrine of the mutual interdependence of entities) as elaborated in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad II.v.1-19, and in the Chandogya Upanishad III 1-5.Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical SchoolsOn Tuesday, 1 August 2017 4:00 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dr.Ram,
Another example as to how the consciousness can become aware of the 'others' due to its in-built fundamental feature. Of awareness without going into any interactional mechanism with some external system
You stay in a pitched dark room. You are aware that there is darkness in the room without any interaction of the darkness and your consciousness. Even if you would like to forcibly bring interaction in the experience of the darkness, you can't bring in the same. What is in the darkness -- which signal which will interact with the consciousness or even with eyes/brain/mind? But it is a fact that we as consciousness become aware if darkness without any interaction. So is with all thoughts and experiences.
Vinod Sehgal
On Tuesday, August 1, 2017, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Respected Dr. Ram,
> Thanks.
> Dear Vinod ji,
> Thanks.
> The key point, which you are failing to grasp, is that the "awareness" is the intrinsic nature of the consciousness and for becoming aware of any entity/phenomenon, it need not enter into any other interaction/mechanism. Awareness is not an emergent/created phenomenon in the consciousness. For example, when you are awake, for becoming awake, you need not enter into any other process/mechanism since you are already awake.
>
> How an E.M. field and a matter particle like an electron belong to the same group when one is localized matter and other is a ubiquitous field? They interact and how there is no category mistake?
>
> Anyhow, examples of e.m field/gravitational field and their interaction with particles are not applicable to the cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti since these fields belong to the Physical realm and mechanisms/Laws of the physical world are not applicable to even the astral world (Realm of tanmātras -- a realm of subtle physicality) let alone cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti. Your problem in thinking has been that you are not able to think beyond the Laws/mechanisms of the Physical world.
>
> Your above quote is self-contradictory. If awareness is inherent/fundamental/intrinsic to the consciousness, how and why it should require any interaction. This will amount to forcibly bringing in the interaction when awareness is already existing in the consciousness.
>
> Where is the contradiction? If Shabda and Prāṇa exist in the cosmic consciousness by its very nature (like that of awareness), why it should interact with the Moola Prakriti? If Shabda and Prāṇa are being manifested in Moola Prakriti Due the very presence of the cosmic consciousness, creation of Shabda and Prāṇa will amount to a fundamental/inherent phenomenon in Moola Prakriti without any actual interaction.
>
> One more thing, which you fail to comprehend, is that for an actual interaction between two entities, both the entities should be discrete and divisible. Cosmic consciousness is NOT a discrete, divisible finite entity. Therefore, even if you would like to have the interaction of the cosmic consciousness and that of the Moola Prakriti, the same is not feasible.
>
> If you do not agree with the above view, please explain the interaction of discrete matter particles and indivisible space (if it is treated as continuous).
>
> Vimal
>
> To maintain wakefulness, there is constant interaction in ARAS system as per neuroscience of wakefulness. The same goes for any type of awareness.
> This you have indicated the physical aspect of wakefulness. Anyhow, even for the physical aspect of the ARAS system to remain in the state of wakefulness, this system need not interact with any other external system. What I wanted to highlight by this analogy ( and an analogy should not be taken in the literal sense), when any feature of a system is inbuilt in the system as part of its fundamentality, It need not interact with any external system for the manifestation of that feature since that feature is self-manifested, self-referenced and self-evidence. Based upon this logical argument, "awareness" is the very non-emergent fundamental feature of the consciousness, therefore, it need not interact with any external entity/system for the manifestation of the awareness. Awareness never manifest in the consciousness. It always continues to remain present in the consciousness. In fact, there is no meaning of the consciousness without being aware.
> In western classification, since fields (such as EM and gravitational field), particles (such as an electron), and waves are (non-mental) physical entities, they are in the same major group; so they can interact without making category mistake;
> How do you define a category?
> When are two categories said to be different?
> When and how two categories interact?
> Why there can't be different categories with the physical group?
> You should address the above issues before going into the issue of the category mistake.
> ______________________________ ______________________________ ___
> Then how do you define non-physical and distinguish it from physical?
> You could say that "anything" which is not physical is non-physical and you may include anything, as known to Science i.e baryonic matter and energy of 4 forces as non-physical and include this under a different category. But this is an arbitrary and incorrect way of defining the second category. Merely stating that whatever is not physical, as known to contemporary science as on day, is non-physical does not serve any purpose since Science is totally blind about the ontology of THAT non-physical.
> So the concept of the category mistake in Science would have been relevant if Science would have been aware of the ontology of both realms viz Physical ( matter and physical energy) and Non-Physical and then established why and how the interaction between the two is not feasible? But for science non-physical realm is almost non-existing, therefore, why to hypothesize any such category? Unless, science has no clarity about the second category, which it conveniently classify as Non-physical to hide its incompleteness of that realm of nature, how can it say that there is some category mistake?
> ______________________________ ______________________________ ______
> In Science, there have been some concepts which have been existing since long and taken granted as correct but when investigated a bit further, those are found to be wrong. I shall name two concepts in this regard -- "Self Organizing" and "Category mistake". The concept of self-organizing is taken in the sense that some phenomenon happens on its own without any internal or external Laws like an auto-pilot which is treated as automatic. But in the case of an auto pilot, some inbuilt Laws are built by some external programmer and auto-pilot moves according to those in-built laws. Similarly, there is nothing like any self-organizing phenomenon. All such phenomenon are governed by some internal Laws existing within the system.
> Similarly, there is nothing like category mistake since
> i) you can't define the different category in precise terms
> ii) Can't specify when one category will be different than other
> iii) can't specify when and how two categories will interact?
> So the whole concept of the category mistake in Science, which is taken correctly as granted, is a misnomer.
> The fact is that whatever interaction nature allows happens and whatever interaction does not allow does not happen WITHOUT any dependency on categories.
>
> there is much objective evidence in physics. However, they cannot interact with mental entities (such as thoughts, experiences etc.); otherwise, category mistake will be made.
> But Science is unaware of the ontological existence of any mind and thoughts /experience? Has it ever empirically detected any mind/thoughts/experiences? So how do you state that mind/thoughts do interact with the matter/e.m energy?
> First, you should define the parameters of each category and ways how it is distinguished from the other category?
>
> In Sāṅkhya, the interaction between Puruṣa (in either parts or whole, the experiencer)
> You are repeatedly making the same mistake that experience is the Purusha. Experience is not the Purusha or cosmic consciousness but it is the soul which is the image of the cosmic consciousness in Prakriti or Chitta to be more precise in the Causal body of the same pattern in the water in a pond at earth, the Sun cast its image. Any interaction of the image of Sun in the water in pond WITH any other external system at earth will not affect. Similarly, even by conservatism if it is agreed that for the localized consciousness ( soul) to experience some thought/experience, some interaction is required, that interaction will be between the image (soul) and the external system of thought.experience COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS OR PURUSHA WILL REMAIN IMMUNE FROM THAT INTERACTION.
> In my previous email also, I had highlighted this issue but you kept silent.
> and Moola Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, and empowerment. It does not matter if Puruṣa (CC) is ubiquitous or not and soul is localized consciousness or not.
> No, this is essential that both the interacting entities should be divisible. If one entity is indivisible infinite, how will you specify which of its parts are involved in any interaction? That is the whole
> problem in defining the interaction between space and matter particles. So far scientists are not able to define the interaction between space and matter particles in the absence of space having any discrete quantum particles.
> I think that it is now time to have an agreement that we disagree.
> Yes, of course, we disagree but we can try to realize where are at missing in our understanding. I have highlighted two issues wherein you seem to be missing in the correct understanding.
> i) The concept of category mistake though in nature there is nothing like the category mistake.
> ii) Invoking an external interactional mechanism for the manifestation of a feature in a system when that feature is a non-emergent fundamental feature ( already existing) of that system
> There is no magic or miracle that Puruṣa or its derivatives/components can watch, experience, empower, and/or communicate with Prakṛti or its components/derivatives.
> The fact is that the whole fundamental existence of cosmic consciousness is a magic for science since it is beyond all the Laws of the Science. It is NOT that the cosmic consciousness may be governed by the Laws of the Science but it is the Laws of the Science which have emerged out from the cosmic consciousness. Therefore, any attempt to understand the cosmic consciousness by the known Laws of Science is going to lead to wrong conclusions
> If you like you can discuss with other colleagues who know what “interaction” means and what its implications are, such as if there is no interaction then it is “isolation” and hence no experience, no empowerment and no communication between them.
>
> Your aforesaid arguments are applicable to physical realm ONLY and that too between two discrete entities and not between one discrete entity like matter and another a continuous indivisible entity like space. Leave alone the cosmic consciousness, these arguments are not applicable even to the Astral realm of nature which is physical. I always mark my messages to other interesting participants in the group to invite their views.
> Regards.
> Vinod Sehgal
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 8:56 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Vinod ji,
>> Thanks.
>> The key point, which you are failing to grasp, is that the "awareness" is the intrinsic nature of the consciousness and for becoming aware of any entity/phenomenon, it need not enter into any other interaction/mechanism. Awareness is not an emergent/created phenomenon in the consciousness. For example, when you are awake, for becoming awake, you need not enter into any other process/mechanism since you are already awake.
>>
>> How an E.M. field and a matter particle like an electron belong to the same group when one is localized matter and other is a ubiquitous field? They interact and how there is no category mistake?
>>
>> Anyhow, examples of e.m field/gravitational field and their interaction with particles are not applicable to the cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti since these fields belong to the Physical realm and mechanisms/Laws of the physical world are not applicable to even the astral world (Realm of tanmātras -- a realm of subtle physicality) let alone cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti. Your problem in thinking has been that you are not able to think beyond the Laws/mechanisms of the Physical world.
>>
>> Your above quote is self-contradictory. If awareness is inherent/fundamental/intrinsic to the consciousness, how and why it should require any interaction. This will amount to forcibly bringing in the interaction when awareness is already existing in the consciousness.
>>
>> Where is the contradiction? If Shabda and Prāṇa exist in the cosmic consciousness by its very nature (like that of awareness), why it should interact with the Moola Prakriti? If Shabda and Prāṇa are being manifested in Moola Prakriti Due the very presence of the cosmic consciousness, creation of Shabda and Prāṇa will amount to a fundamental/inherent phenomenon in Moola Prakriti without any actual interaction.
>>
>> One more thing, which you fail to comprehend, is that for an actual interaction between two entities, both the entities should be discrete and divisible. Cosmic consciousness is NOT a discrete, divisible finite entity. Therefore, even if you would like to have the interaction of the cosmic consciousness and that of the Moola Prakriti, the same is not feasible.
>>
>> If you do not agree with the above view, please explain the interaction of discrete matter particles and indivisible space (if it is treated as continuous).
>>
>> Vimal
>>
>> To maintain wakefulness, there is constant interaction in ARAS system as per neuroscience of wakefulness. The same goes for any type of awareness.
>>
>> In western classification, since fields (such as EM and gravitational field), particles (such as an electron), and waves are (non-mental) physical entities, they are in the same major group; so they can interact without making category mistake; there is much objective evidence in physics. However, they cannot interact with mental entities (such as thoughts, experiences etc.); otherwise, category mistake will be made.
>>
>> In Sāṅkhya, the interaction between Puruṣa (in either parts or whole, the experiencer) and Moola Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, and empowerment. It does not matter if Puruṣa (CC) is ubiquitous or not and soul is localized consciousness or not. I think that it is now time to have an agreement that we disagree. There is no magic or miracle that Puruṣa or its derivatives/components can watch, experience, empower, and/or communicate with Prakṛti or its components/derivatives. If you like you can discuss with other colleagues who know what “interaction” means and what its implications are, such as if there is no interaction then it is “isolation” and hence no experience, no empowerment and no communication between them.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Rām
>> ------------------------------ ----------------------------
>> Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
>> Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
>> Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
>> 25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
>> Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
>> rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home
>> https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal
>> Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
>>
>> On Monday, 31 July 2017 10:27 PM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Respected Dr. Ram,
>> Thanks.
>> I strongly disagree because you are making totally illogical and impossible argument. The interaction between Puruṣa (either in parts or whole) and Moola Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, empowerment. If there is no interaction, then both are isolated. Fields (such as ubiquitous ZPF, EM, or gravitational field) can interact with particles without making category mistake if interaction is between two entities of the same group. You have two contradicting views on Prana and Shabda; they are parts of Puruṣa vs. parts of Moola Prakṛti; they are certainly not third independent entities. In any case, the Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛtiare of from different groups, their interaction is certainly a category mistake and is forbidden. In my view, any kind of awareness by soul/self (even if awareness is fundamental and inherent in soul) needs interaction with the objects it is aware of. Therefore, in my view, the association and category mistake problems of Sāṅkhyaremains. To sum up, let us agree that we disagree and let readers to decide.
>>
>> Sehgal: The key point which you are failing to grasp is that the "awareness" is the very intrinsic nature of the consciousness and for becoming aware of any entity/phenomenon, it need not enter into any other interaction/mechanism. Awareness is not an emergent/created phenomenon in the consciousness. For example, when you are awake, for becoming awake, you need not enter into any other process/mechanism since you are already awake.
>>
>> Fields (such as ubiquitous ZPF, EM, or gravitational field) can interact with particles without making category mistake if interaction is between two entities of the same group.
>> How an e.m field and a matter particle like an electron belong to the same group when one is localized matter and other is a ubiquitous field? They interact and how there is no category mistake?
>> Anyhow, examples of e.m field/gravitational field and their interaction with particles are not applicable to the cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti since these fields belong to the Physical realm and mechanisms/Laws of the physical world are not applicable to even the Astral world ( Realm of tanmaatras -- a realm of subtle physicality) let alone cosmic consciousness and Moola Prakriti. Your problem in thinking has been that you are not able to think beyond the Laws/mechanisms of the Physical world.
>>
>> In my view, any kind of awareness by soul/self (even if awareness is fundamental and inherent in soul) needs interaction with the objects it is aware of.
>>
>> Your above quote is self-contradictory. If awareness is inherent/fundamental/intrinsic to the consciousness, how and why it should require any interaction. This will amount to forcibly bringing in the interaction when awareness is already existing in the consciousness.
>> You have two contradicting views on Prana and Shabda; they are parts of Puruṣa vs. parts of Moola Prakṛti; they are certainly not third independent entities
>>
>> Where is the contradiction? If Shabda and Prana exist in the cosmic Consciousness by its very nature ( like that of awareness), why it should interact with the Moola Prakriti? If Shbada and Prana are being manifested in Moola Prakriti Due the very presence of the cosmic consciousness, creation of Shabda and Prana will amount to a fundamental/inherent phenomenon in Moola Prakriti without any actual interaction.
>> ______________________________ ______________________________ ______One more thing which you fail to comprehend is that for an actual interaction between two entities, both the entitities should be discrete and divisible. Cosmnic consciousness is NOT a discrete, divisible finite enetity. So even if you would like to have the interaction of the cosmic consciousness and taht of the Moola Prakriti, the same is not faesible.
>> If you don't agree with the above view, please explain the interaction of discrete matter particles and indivisible space ( if it is treated as continuous).
>> Regards.
>> Vinod sehgal
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Vinod ji,
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Sehgal (31 July 2017)
>>
>> Not necessary that for the creation of Shabda and Prana, Puruṣa (Cosmic consciousness) may have the actual interaction with the Moola Prakriti. Cosmic consciousness is a HOLISTIC INDIVISIBLE IN FINITE entity while Mool Prakriti is a DISCRETE DIVISIBLE entity. For interaction, actual communication, as is normally interpreted in the physical sciences, it is some parts of the Cosmic Consciousness which should have interaction with some parts of the Moola Prakriti. However since the cosmic consciousness is PARTLESS, INDIVISIBLE, HOLISTIC INFINITE ONE, it can't interact, the way you interpret the interaction, even if you want to forcibly want to create an interaction. Then there are two views on the manifestation of Prana and Shabda in Moola Prakriti. The first view states that this is by the very nature of the cosmic consciousness (without any need for any mechanism in the physical sense we understand), Prana and Shabda manifest in the Moola Prakriti. The second view is that Prana and Shabda exist in the very womb of the cosmic consciousness and emerge it out in the Moola Prakriti. In either of these views, no need for interaction in the physical sense arises. Then Most important fact has been that in the state of Samādhi, both Prana and Shabda are actually observable/experienceable. This does not leave the scope for any other interpretation. The point which you are missing is that it is not the cosmic consciousness which empowers Moola Prakrit, but it is the Prana and Shabda which empowers Moola Prakriti Then how Prana and Shabda manifests in MooLa Prakriti is indicated above. […] I argue that there is no need for any interaction between the soul and final signal of thoughts in Chitta since awareness is the very fundamental nature of the consciousness of the soul.
>>
>> Vimal
>>
>> I strongly disagree because you are making totally illogical and impossible argument. The interaction between Puruṣa (either in parts or whole) and Moola Prakṛti is ESSENTIAL for any type of communication, experience, empowerment. If there is no interaction, then both are isolated. Fields (such as ubiquitous ZPF, EM, or gravitational field) can interact with particles without making category mistake if interaction is between two entities of the same group. You have two contradicting views on Prana and Shabda; they are parts of Puruṣa vs. parts of Moola Prakṛti; they are certainly not third independent entities. In any case, the Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛti are of from different groups, their interaction is certainly a category mistake and is forbidden. In my view, any kind of awareness by soul/self (even if awareness is fundamental and inherent in soul) needs interaction with the objects it is aware of. Therefore, in my view, the association and category mistake problems of Sāṅkhya remains. To sum up, let us agree that we disagree and let readers to decide.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Rām
>> ------------------------------ ----------------------------
>> Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
>> Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
>> Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
>> 25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
>> Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
>> rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http:// sites.google.com/site/ rlpvimal/Home
>> https://www.researchgate.net/ profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_ Vimal
>> Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
>
Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.
I am sorry, please ignore my 3 previous emails because they were not clear.I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding of Sāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna, Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya (or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.Sehgal (6 August 2017)The following view is based on my understanding of (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya.[1] The Field of Awareness, as arising out of the consciousness, is not compared with the one as that of an electric charge or the magnetic field. The electric and magnetic fields are the emergent/derived fields and they act on each point in the space. In other words, the electric field and magnetic field remain present in each point of space/time. However, the Field of Awareness had never emerged out of any other thing thru some mechanism. It always existed as such, whether before or after the creation or during the period universe remains in the manifested stage. Further, it is not that the field of the Awareness remains present in each point of space/time but it is the space and time which emerges out from the Field of Awareness and each and every point of space/time exist in that Field. So any comparison of the field of awareness with those of physical fields like that of electric or magnetic one is ill conceived and arguments as applicable to the physical electric/magnetic fields are not applicable to the Field of Awareness. I had used the term Field of Awareness to make it more understandable on the lines of the physical fields.The closest comparison of the Field of Awareness, which comes to my mind, is that of the space. The primary function of the space is to provide a base, a medium for the existence and operation (motion) to the distinct physical objects. When space fulfills these two functions viz. providing base and medium for the motion, space do no interact with the physical objects since these functions are always self-evident in space. Similarly, awareness is always self-evident, self-manifested in the consciousness and it need not interact with the final signal of thought/experiences.I think that you are extending the logic of the mechanism of the interaction between two physical entities to the consciousness and awareness but forgetting that awareness is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute/ nature of the consciousness on the same pattern providing the basis for existence and medium for motion is the fundamental, innate and self-evident attribute/nature of space.[2] Again by comparing the field of awareness with the physical field like a quantum field, you are arriving at wrong inferences/conclusion. The Field of the Awareness, unlike some physical quantum field, is not a quantum field. The cosmic consciousness and Field of Awareness as fundamentally innate with it is an infinite, indivisible, a Holistic One and it is not located in space/time, but it is space/time, which emerges out such Field of Awareness. It is not that each and every point of the Field of Awareness (in fact, there are no points/parts in this field due to it being holistic infinite one) is located in each and every point of space/time BUT it is the each and every point of the space/time which is located in the infinite holistic Field of Awareness. Therefore, any attempt to understand the cosmic consciousness or Field of Awareness from the conventional logic as applicable to the mechanism as applicable to the physical entities is bound to lead to wrong inferences/conclusions.[3] It is separable from the ontological existential point of view, remain present in Prakriti and all its derivatives but for having awareness of the Prakriti, it need not interact with Prakriti due to awareness being its fundamental and innate nature, as elaborated in the foregoing Paragraphs. Again, the analogy of the space and physical objects will help you to understand this point of view. Space remains present in all the physical objects but it is separable from the physical objects and for its fundamental functions viz providing base for the existence of the physical objects and medium for their operation (motion), it need not interact with the physical objects. On the same pattern, consciousness( having fundamental awareness) always remain present in Prakriti and its derivatives and yet it is separate from Prakriti and for having awareness of Prakriti and its derivatives, it need not interact with the Prakriti and its derivatives ( due to awareness being a fundamental and innate nature/attribute of the consciousness). Actually, it is wrong to state that consciousness/awareness remain present in Prakriti or its derivatives. It is the Prakriti and its derivatives, which reside/exist in the consciousness or Field of Awareness. Please try to come out from the logic of physicality as applicable to the physical systems. Please try to understand from the analogy of space and physical objects as to how Prakriti and its entire derivatives can exist in Consciousness/Field of Awareness yet they can be separate and for the consciousness to be aware of the Prakriti, it need not interact with it. That is why I send copies of my messages to other people also (6 as indicated above) but no one has commented. I thought they will also provide their views but so far, none has done so. I request you to send our debate/conversation to other people also.[4] I am not denying the physiological changes/process undergoing in the eyes/body/brain during darkness and sleep/dreams. What I had been emphasizing and somehow you are not directly responding that even though our consciousness can have the awareness of the darkness but no actual physical interaction takes place between darkness and our brain and mind, leave alone the consciousness. I had provided this analogy of the awareness of darkness in the absence of any actual interaction to highlight the point that consciousness/ awareness can have the awareness of the finally processed signal of thoughts/experiences without any interaction with these signals.If you still subscribe to the view that interaction is necessary for the awareness of the consciousness, please address this very issue as to how the darkness is awarized by the consciousness and yet no interaction take place even between the darkness and brain/body. Here I am speaking of the direct interaction between the darkness and the brain/body and mind and NOT of any physiological changes/process in the brain. Those processes/changes occur otherwise also in the brain in the absence of the darkness.VimalCan space exist by itself without matter or energy around? As per Sten Odenwald, “No. Experiments continue to show that there is no 'space' that stands apart from space-time itself...no arena in which matter, energy and gravity operate which is not affected by matter, energy and gravity. General relativity tells us that what we call space is just another feature of the gravitational field of the universe, so space and space-time can and do not exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field. This is not speculation, but sound observation.”Darkness is a SE experienced by the self like any other SE and has neural correlate(s). It is because of an absence of light stimulus, which causes a chain of interactive signals from retina to cortex. This leads to SE of darkness thru the matching and selection mechanism of the eDAM using interaction between the endogenous (because there is no exogenous/external signal from an object in pitch dark) feed forward signals and cognitive feedback signal. The SE darkness is selected from the SEs stored in LTM by the selection mechanism and is experienced by the self. My colleagues agree on interaction between experiencer/self and objects for a SE. This is a testable hypothesis by an easy experiment by just reducing the intensity of light signal from high value to zero and recording neural activities using EEG/fMRI.You do not need to give me any example. I fully understand your point of view. However, unfortunately it is 100% incorrect hypothesis that the interaction between an experiencer/self and object is not needed for experiencing it.
Kind regards,Rām
...
[Message clipped]
Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.
Sehgal: [1] We have a very large universe with space extending to almost infinities. Definitely, there will be large swathes in the universe in which there will be no matter, energy, radiations (ignoring any vacuum energy). Will there be no existence of space in these swathes of the universe? Is it not an obvious observation?[2] The experience of darkness is not like other SEs. In other SEs, a signal of some physical energy emanates from the stimuli but in the experience of the darkness, none of the signals of any physical energy can emanate from the darkness. It is because of an absence of light stimulus, which causes a chain of interactive signals from retina to cortex. This could be that with darkness or the absence of light, a chain of interactive signals might be setting in motion from the retina to cortex but we can’t say that this experience has resulted from any interaction between the darkness and the brain. In my other message, I have clarified that there is no doubt that with darkness, some NCCs might be setting up but we can't say that these NCCs are due to any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain. The point which I am trying to focus, emphasize and re-emphasize is that despite the absence of any direct interaction between the darkness and the brain, darkness is experienced by us. We can't say that NCCs start building up due to darkness (or the absence of light) since no signal can emanate out from the darkness (or absence of light).The issue which we are discussing is the point of direct interaction between a "thing" to be experienced and brain/mind and consciousness. If there is no exogenous signal from darkness, then we can't say that experience of darkness is due to direct interaction between the darkness and brain/mind. As such, it can’t be treated like other SEs like the view of a red rose. When the experience of the darkness is not akin to other normal SEs, we can't say if this is an SE at all. But then we can't say that this is due to the interaction between darkness and the brain. This proves that experiences of many things can be accomplished even in the absence of direct interaction between those "things: and the body/brain. However, consciousness experiences everything in the absence of any interaction between it and the finally processed signal of "that thing" due to the pre-existing non-emergent Fundamental Field of Awareness. You need to understand the fundamental non-emergent awareness of the holistic consciousness as placed beyond space and time. You also need to understand that interaction is required for an emergent phenomenon as occurring in space/time. Awareness is not an emergent phenomenon as happening in space/time. Only when you will fully grasp these issues then you will be able to get rid of the “interactionalism” in the experiences of anything by the consciousness.Vimal: [1] Obviously scientists did not observe such large swathes. Therefore, it would be simply a speculation. If you like, you can also speculate that human beings might be flying somewhere in the universe, and there are astral, causal, and manifested consciousness worlds such as Indra Loka (world), Satya or Brahma Loka, Vishnu Loka, and so on. You can fantasize anything you want, such as an experiencer does not interact with objects and still able to experience them in some fictitious Loka. It is a free world and you have complete freedom to imagine anything and say this is the fundamental truth because you can observe it in some Samādhi (SS/NS) state even though you have not yet attained this state.[2] You arguments are totally illogical. Darkness is NOT an object, not a thing, and not a stimulus in the real physical world out there. It is simply due to the lack of light signal in pitch dark. Darkness is simply a visual SE that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE. Therefore, I disagree with you that an experiencer can experience an external object without interacting with it.My colleagues Profs. Roman (Poznanski) and Alfredo (Pereira Jr.) will agree with me on the topic of interactionalism. If you like you can discuss with them further (if they have time!).I think now that we MUST agree that we have a disagreement on this topic and there is no point in this endless debate.
Kind regards,Rām
------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Dear Vinod and Vimal,
If you forgive me for jumping into your debate, in this case I agree with Vinod that,
“The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations”.
GR just says that matter curves (distorts) space time. It does not say that there can be no space without matter or radiation. In fact de Sitter universe keeps on expanding with no matter, just a positive cosmological constant. Forget about models of inflation, even now, there is huge amount of interstellar space where there is practically no or extremely little matter or energy. Interstellar space is practically vacuum e.g. you may run into a molecule every few miles! It is possible that I may have misunderstood your disagreement!
Best Regards.
Kashyap
--
Dear Vimal,
You and Vinod have interesting debate going on. But the fundamental physics is not yet clear on what was the primordial stuff. The general agreement is that there was a very small patch of vacuum just at the time of big bang before inflation started. So some form of space was there. It had probably one unified quantum field. Later on this field was split into a number of fields. If there is just one field in the beginning, you can draw parallel with Brahman. That would be self-interacting. If there are more than one quantum fields before inflation, then surely they will be interacting with each other. There are large number of models, probably one for each physicist working on this!!! Anyway, I do not know what would correspond with Prakriti and Purush. Laws of nature were of course there in some abstract form. Can you call them Purush and quantum field Prakrity?
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Dear Kashyap,
Very good point—I too feel it is rather early in the game of physics for us to be taking current understanding (i.e. of cosmology or even of Standard Model) into the arena of fundamental nature of consciousness. If anything, as I understand Samkhya philosophy, all of physics fits into Prakriti, quantum fields, quantum vacuum, etc., all of it, whatever the specifics. The laws of nature maybe do represent Purusha, since as laws they are unobserved--in a sense they represent (our collective) intelligence. On the other hand many of our ‘laws of nature’ appear to lack the unchanging nature of Purusha--their forms may change from one generation to the next (and are dependent on particular conceptualization of Nature)…
Best wishes,
Siegfried
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Dear Kashyap,Thanks for the information. This means that the large swathes of space are like vacuum field with quantum fluctuations (QFs), in analogy to the usual vacuum field with QFs.Either way is fine with my argument that, in Sāṅkhya, (a) Puruṣa and Moola Prakṛti must interact for Cosmic Fire or Big Bang, and (b) localized Puruṣa (soul, self) must interact with Chitta (Prakṛti) to experience objects.In the eDAM, the self is the 1pp-mental aspect of a self-related state of a mind-brain system, which has neural correlates/basis (such as cortical and subcortical midline structures) as its inseparable 3pp-physical aspect.For the self to experience a specific SE, such as redness (or darkness), there is the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of the interaction/matching between (i) exogenous or endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a stimulus (or a lack of any external light stimulus) and (ii) cognitive FB (feedback) signals. If the matching is successful, the "self" selects the specific matched SE from the LTM and experiences it. For detail, please see (Vimal, 2010a). In any case, interaction is always involved.Vinod claims that interaction is not needed. What is your opinion?
Kind regards,Rām
------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Kind regards,Rām
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Dear Avtar,
Thank you for your reply to my comments about universal laws. I did intentionally say “many of our ‘laws of nature’” to leave open the door for one or more of them to truly be universal. Conservation of mass/energy does indeed appear to be universal—apart from the fact we don’t yet know what dark matter and dark energy are, whether they fit into the Standard Model or some extension of it, and so on. I do understand you are attributing to the spontaneous conversion of mass to energy in decay events several phenomena, one being an accounting of mass-energy that you say is missing in physics, another being conscious choice on the part of elementary particles. While I cannot speak to the latter claim, except to ask whether you can (rigorously) relate such specie of consciousness to human consciousness, I can say mass-energy relationships and interchanges are, in fact, accounted for in elementary particle collisions and calculations as commonplace practice in physics. When, in your papers, you equate kinetic energy of receding galaxies to converted mass, it is not clear what exactly is the origin of this conversion—i.e. on a microscopic level, what elementary particle event can you attribute to such a conversion? When a particle is made to accelerate due to electromagnetic or other force, then Einstein’s equations of relativistic kinematics tell us the particle has energy given by , where is the Lorentz factor. Are you saying some mass is converted to energy during this acceleration? I would say, rather, that potential energy of interaction between the particle and the source of the interaction is what gets converted to kinetic energy of the particle.
It is also not clear to me from your papers how you include space/time in the conservation principle you are classifying as the universal law of conservation. I do get that as an object picks up speed (relative to some frame of reference), space for that object contracts and its time dilates. But what is conserved in this case is the proper time, which is independent of mass-energy relationship, although related.
Best wishes,
Siegfried
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Dear Kashyap,Very good point—I too feel it is rather early in the game of physics for us to be taking current understanding (i.e. of cosmology or even of Standard Model) into the arena of fundamental nature of consciousness.
If anything, as I understand Samkhya philosophy, all of physics fits into Prakriti, quantum fields, quantum vacuum, etc., all of it, whatever the specifics.
The laws of nature maybe do represent Purusha,
since as laws they are unobserved--in a sense they represent (our collective) intelligence. On the other hand many of our ‘laws of nature’ appear to lack the unchanging nature of Purusha--their forms may change from one generation to the next (and are dependent on particular conceptualization of Nature)…
I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding ofSāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna, Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya(or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.
...
[Message clipped]
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Dear Vinod and Vimal,
Let us stop this formality of addressing as doctors and Ph.D.’s etc.!!!
Debate between you two is quite interesting. But as for me, honestly, my knowledge of Vedanta, Sankhya and consciousness is extremely limited. So I will not weigh in those arguments. For pure physics, I am much more confidant. So I am quite willing to express my opinion, with this caution. Physics is purely based on sensory data. So when you extend the ideas of physics to consciousness and non-sensory world, be warned that you may be on uncertain ground! Current Physics may or may not agree with your ideas drawn from Hindu philosophy.
Now, from physics point of view, beginning of our observable universe with a very small patch of vacuum having zero total energy seems ok. Majority (not all) physicists will go along with this. This needs idea of inflationary scenario. There are many supporting consequences, but it is not experimentally verified as yet. Also the idea of neighboring patches giving rise to infinite number of parallel universes is also attractive, but it too does not have any experimental support. By the way, the talk about universe starting with “nothing” by Krauss and others is extremely misleading. This has been discussed on physics blogs for years. The wording is not right! When you say “nothing” it does not mean what a common man understands by “nothing” i.e. absence of anything! E=0 quantum vacuum is not nothing! Quantum vacuum is a very complicated object; it has to have fluctuating quantum fields governed by laws of nature. Our known universe is supposed to have come from a wild quantum fluctuation. So saying universe came from nothing is misleading at best and perhaps a dishonest statement to sell books! As far as I can tell, most physicists would agree that big bang theory cannot be understood without using quantum fields. There is no completely classical model of origin of universe. Other than this I agree with most of the physics stuff mentioned by Vimal in the second e-mail. By the way, as I understand, theories of origin of universe in Vayupuran and Nasadiyasukta also talk about origin of universe in a dark vacuum with just formless Brahman existing.
Fields are usually interacting, unless forbidden by some conservation laws. In the case of unified field it can be self-interacting. If you want to extend this to Vedanta, it is anybody’s guess. As I mentioned before, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s group has a theory of all-encompassing unified field which would include consciousness and material world. It is not clear how one can verify it.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 8:24 AM
To: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
Cc: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; georg...@aol.com; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>; BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com>; G Srinivasan <gsva...@gmail.com>;
Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>; Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Respected Dr. Ram and Dr Kashyap,
Dear Bruno,
Thank you for your considered response. It may take me a few days to digest and comment, as the idea of 'mechanism' as distinct from materialism is new to me. I have downloaded a paper of yours from academia.edu, which I hope clarifies the subject. What I would say for now is that quantum mechanics is not unique in physics in involving consciousness, maybe unique in explicitly requiring consideration of consciousness. That is, classical mechanics includes consciousness implicitly in mathematically representing what I would say amounts to 'the structures of perception', how we see and conceptualize change, point of view (i.e. reference frame), and so on.
Best wishes,
Siegfried
Sent from Outlook
Dear Bruno,
Thank you for your considered response. It may take me a few days to digest and comment, as the idea of 'mechanism' as distinct from materialism is new to me. I have downloaded a paper of yours from academia.edu, which I hope clarifies the subject. What I would say for now is that quantum mechanics is not unique in physics in involving consciousness, maybe unique in explicitly requiring consideration of consciousness. That is, classical mechanics includes consciousness implicitly in mathematically representing what I would say amounts to 'the structures of perception', how we see and conceptualize change, point of view (i.e. reference frame), and so on.
Best wishes,
Siegfried
Sent from Outlook
From: online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 9:49 AM
Dear Siegfried,
Kind regards,Rām
------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 3:31 PM, "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Vinod and Vimal,If you forgive me for jumping into your debate, in this case I agree with Vinod that,“The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations”.GR just says that matter curves (distorts) space time. It does not say that there can be no space without matter or radiation. In fact de Sitter universe keeps on expanding with no matter, just a positive cosmological constant. Forget about models of inflation, even now, there is huge amount of interstellar space where there is practically no or extremely little matter or energy. Interstellar space is practically vacuum e.g. you may run into a molecule every few miles! It is possible that I may have misunderstood your disagreement!Best Regards.Kashyap
From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 1:45 PM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; George Weissmann <georg...@aol.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.Sehgal: The existence of large swathes of space devoid of matter and energy/radiations is based upon some scientific arguments and not mere speculation. If we trust that cosmic inflation and BB theory of the creation of the universe is correct, there is all the possibility that there may be many swathes of the universe having NIL matter and energy/radiations. The BB was followed immediately with a superluminal expansion of space but matter and energy within space cannot travel more than the speed of light. In other words, at the time of the cosmic inflation of space, matter/energy expanding with it might not have kept pace with the expansion of the space. This will result in the creation of some territories of space devoid of any matter/energy.Vimal: As per Wikipedia (as of 8 August 2017), “In physical cosmology, cosmic inflation, cosmological inflation, or just inflation, is a theory of the exponential expansion of space in the early universe. The inflationary epoch lasted from 10−36 seconds after the conjectured Big Bang singularity to sometime between 10−33 and 10−32 seconds after the singularity. Following the inflationary period, the Universe continues to expand, but at a less rapid rate.[1]”How big was the universe at the end of inflation? As per (FrankH, 2012), “So given a size of the currently observable universe, we can ask how big was that volume at any particular time in the past. According to this paper at the end of inflation the universe's scale factor was about 10−30 smaller than it is today, so that would give a diameter for the currently observable universe at the end of inflation of 0.88 millimeters which is approximately the size of a grain of sand (See calculation at WolframAlpha). It is believed that inflation needed to expand the universe by at least a factor of 60 e-foldings (which is a factor of e60). So using WolframAlpha again we find that the diameter of the universe before inflation would have been 7.7×10−30 meters, which is only about 480,000 Planck lengths.”My understanding is that (a) relativity rejects the existence of space-time independent of matter-energy, (b) cosmic inflation theory does not contradict Relativity theory, and (c) inflation does not contradict the prohibition of faster-than-light speed. Therefore, I disagree with you.Sehgal: Even in the current era, there have been Yogis/Sages who have had the reproducible experiences of the Astral and Causal worlds in a quite vivid manner.Vimal: Can you provide the names, addresses, and phone numbers of such yogis so that we can contact them directly? And/or bring them in this discussion forum to confront our queries. In my view, what they observe are simply their subjective experiences, which have their respective neural correlate(s)/basis.
Sehgal: But then we cannot say that this signal has emanated out from the darkness or there has been some actual interaction between the darkness and the brain. [Vimal’s paraphrase of Sehgal’s queries: Individual localized consciousness (soul, self) does not interact with Chitta-signal to experience the physical objects, i.e., Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sā ṅkhya do not interact, for example, the experience of darkness, which is a different kind of experience. Moreover, there are problems in the eDAM.]
Vimal: You are missing my point again. Darkness is simply a visual SE (like any other SE) that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE.I disagree with your claim: Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya NEVER interact for performing any function or experience or for anything; just the proximity of Puruṣa and Prakṛti is enough, rest is all-automatic. One example is experiencing darkness, which is a different kind of experience.Of course, darkness is a different kind of experience similar to redness is different from grayness or sweetness, but the processing of neural information thru the matching and selection of a specific SE (such as darkness vs. redness) related to SE is similar in their respective NNs as mentioned above.In the eDAM, the “self” is the 1pp-mental aspect of the state of self-related NN. The external objects simply reflect or emit light, which gets converted into neural signals; then self-related signals interact with the object-related signals. Please note that physical signals interact with physical signals to avoid category mistake. A mental entity (such as self) cannot directly interact with a physical entity (such as an external object); otherwise, category mistake will be made. There is no light signal in pitch dark, which has nothing to do with my argument because the interaction is between neural signals, not with physical objects. Please, try to understand this point. That is why your half-knowledge in neuroscience and in the eDAM are causing you such a big problem to the extent you are losing all your credibility.
Sāṅkhya makes a serious category mistake. You are forcing that Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅ khya do not interact to avoid category mistake; this is where you are making a big mistake.
As far as I am concerned, the dualistic Sāṅkhya is 100% rejected because of its 11 problems whether you like it or not. To save it to some extent, it needs to be converted into a version of dual-aspect monism or that of the eDAM.What you call problems in the eDAM is simply your half-knowledge and misunderstanding and misconstruction. If you seriously read my at least the five articles related to 5 components of the eDAM, namely (Vimal, 2008), (Vimal, 2010a), (Vimal, 2013), (Vimal, 2015b), and (Vimal, 2016d), then I can try helping you with further clarifications.Otherwise, it is your choice. In this case, as BMP’s implies, let us agree with humility, tolerance, and compassion for each other that we have disagreement using the concept of “unity in diversity”.
Kind regards,Rām
Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “In physics, a field is a physical quantity, typically a number or tensor, that has a value for each point in space and time.[1][2][3] For example, […] an electric field can be thought of as a "condition in space"[4] emanating from an electric charge and extending throughout the whole of space. When a test electric charge is placed in this electric field, the particle accelerates due to a force.” This implies that when the “Field of Awareness” (like an electric field) “permeates” Chitta (like a test charge), Chitta/Prakṛti intera cts with the “field of awareness”/Puruṣa.
...
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Dear Vinod,
I maintain that, whatever differences there may be in the view points, dear (first name, you might add ji if you feel like!) is the polite and nice way to carry conversations further, especially while conversing at a distance.
Anyway, as I said before, our differences may be due to our attitudes. Established physics (science in general) takes priority in my mind compared to whatever was thought or written thousands of years back. I am certainly interested in Vedanta, Sankhya etc. Whenever talks on such subjects are available in my neighborhood, I go and listen and occasionally read about them also. (In fact a Vedantic scholar, from a city about 200 miles from here, has kindly agreed to come here once a month and talk on Vedanta for several hours. These days he is talking about Prashnopanishad!) On the other hand you seem to have priority in believing such things even if it conflicts with established science. That is fine with me. Different people have different frames of mind.
Now as I said, I am talking about physical models of origin of universe for which there is majority consensus; surely not 100 percent! Nothing in science is 100 percent nor should it be. Scientists should be willing to drop their favorite model at the drop of a hat, when evidence is pointing against it.
I do not understand why we get hung up on sign of gravitational energy. Where you locate your zero for potential energy is arbitrary and results of calculation cannot change by changing location of zero. Since gravity is always attractive, it is convenient to set zero when objects are at infinite distance from each other. This makes gravitational energy negative when they are at any other distance. We teach this in Freshmen College and high school physics all the time. If there is a college nearby, you might talk to a physics professor. Of course once you choose location of zero, you cannot keep on changing during the calculation. This is some 400 years of wisdom since Newton’s time. NASA and ISRO send spacecraft all the time with this kind of calculations. Their success should be an evidence for correctness of these ideas! While I was writing this, I saw an e-mail by Vimal where he explains the negative sign in an elaborate way. As far as I can tell, there is nothing non-ontological about negative gravitational potential energy. This is just a book keeping method which is consistent.
Now, fluctuations in quantum fields come from uncertainty principle. When you confine quantum fields in a small space, the fields and energy will have to fluctuate. If you believe in quantum physics, there is no choice. How can our universe come about from a fluctuating quantum field is a subtle question; more philosophical than physics question. “This negates the whole concept of the universe emanating out as per some Laws/Rules.” No. This is completely consistent with uncertainty principle. If you believe in quantum physics, you have to believe in uncertainty principle. There is no choice! You cannot pick and choose in science. The whole science comes as a package! In a way this question is similar to the debate about evolution and creationism. Creationists would argue that if the complete blueprint of how to design life is known to God for example, it should not take 4 Billion years of trial and error to produce human beings. Scientists, even believers, would say that is how the laws of nature operate.
The universe in the beginning had minimum entropy. It has been increasing ever since then. If there is a big crunch and start over, there will have to be some mechanism to reduce the entropy.
Again, all of this is consistent with the laws of physics as of today. They may look weird from our everyday experience. But we should not expect that universe should be consistent with what a little human being can rationalize from his/her everyday experience!!
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 3:02 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Kashyap wrote:
Thank you for your considered response. It may take me a few days to digest and comment, as the idea of 'mechanism' as distinct from materialism is new to me. I have downloaded a paper of yours from academia.edu, which I hope clarifies the subject.
What I would say for now is that quantum mechanics is not unique in physics in involving consciousness, maybe unique in explicitly requiring consideration of consciousness. That is, classical mechanics includes consciousness implicitly in mathematically representing what I would say amounts to 'the structures of perception', how we see and conceptualize change, point of view (i.e. reference frame), and so on.
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Dear Avatar,
I do not understand why we get hung up on sign of gravitational energy. Where you locate your zero for potential energy is arbitrary and results of calculation cannot change by changing location of zero. When you throw a ball up with some kinetic energy, it keeps on going up for a while in spite of gravity pulling it down. You can set the gravitational potential energy zero anywhere, at the top of the flight or at the bottom of the flight.. You can do the calculation of trajectory of a ball thrown up with zero total (kinetic + potential energy) and get the same result as the case when you set total energy as positive at the beginning of flight. You have to watch out for sign of gravitational potential energy. This is done in elementary physics text books. Since gravity is always attractive, it is convenient to set it as zero when objects are at infinite distance from each other. This makes gravitational energy negative when they are at any other distance. We teach this in Freshmen College and high school physics all the time. Of course once you choose location of zero, you cannot keep on changing during the calculation. This is some 400 years of wisdom since Newton’s time. NASA and ISRO send spacecraft all the time with this kind of calculations. Their success should be an evidence for correctness of these ideas! Ram (Vimal) explains the negative sign in an elaborate way. As far as I can tell, there is nothing non-ontological about negative gravitational potential energy. This is just a book keeping method which is consistent.
Now for expansion of universe, zero total starting energy is no problem.. Expansion comes from kinetic energy. Gravity opposes expansion but becomes weaker as the universe expands. The theory is that initial exponential expansion came from the inflaton field, (in a way similar to throwing a ball up) which is similar but may or may not be related to the current accelerated expansion brought out by repulsive cosmological constant (cc). As you know, gravity and cc oppose each other. For the first 8 B years or so , the gravity was stronger than cc. In fact there is astronomical evidence that the expansion rate was slowing down in the first 8 B years or so. Only in the last 5 B years the expansion rate has accelerated because of dominance of cc over gravity.
As for dark matter and dark energy your complaint is right. At present, physics does not understand it completely. Physicists are trying hard to understand them. But the answer is not to throw away the principles which have been understood for hundreds of years. Your new theory has to explain everything that the old theory did! In a way this is like problem with the roof of a two story house. Suppose 96 percent of the roof is leaky and you do not know where the water is coming from. The answer is to rebuild the roof, not tear down the house from its foundation and the first two floors!
Best Regards.
Kashyap
Sehgal: But then we cannot say that this signal has emanated out from the darkness or there has been some actual interaction between the darkness and the brain. [Vimal’s paraphrase of Sehgal’s queries: Individual localized consciousness (soul, self) does not interact with Chitta-signal to experience the physical objects, i.e., Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya do not interact, for example, the experience of darkness, which is a different kind of experience. Moreover, there are problems in the eDAM.]
Vimal: You are missing my point again. Darkness is simply a visual SE (like any other SE) that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE.I disagree with your claim: Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya NEVER interact for performing any function or experience or for anything; just the proximity of Puruṣa and Prakṛti is enough, rest is all-automatic. One example is experiencing darkness, which is a different kind of experience.Of course, darkness is a different kind of experience similar to redness is different from grayness or sweetness, but the processing of neural information thru the matching and selection of a specific SE (such as darkness vs. redness) related to SE is similar in their respective NNs as mentioned above.In the eDAM, the “self” is the 1pp-mental aspect of the state of self-related NN. The external objects simply reflect or emit light, which gets converted into neural signals; then self-related signals interact with the object-related signals. Please note that physical signals interact with physical signals to avoid category mistake. A mental entity (such as self) cannot directly interact with a physical entity (such as an external object); otherwise, category mistake will be made. There is no light signal in pitch dark, which has nothing to do with my argument because the interaction is between neural signals, not with physical objects. Please, try to understand this point. That is why your half-knowledge in neuroscience and in the eDAM are causing you such a big problem to the extent you are losing all your credibility.
Sāṅkhya makes a serious category mistake. You are forcing that Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya do not interact to avoid category mistake; this is where you are making a big mistake.
I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding of Sāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna, Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya (or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.
Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “In physics, a field is a physical quantity, typically a number or tensor, that has a value for each point in space and time.[1][2][3] For example, […] an electric field can be thought of as a "condition in space"[4] emanating from an electric charge and extending throughout the whole of space. When a test electric charge is placed in this electric field, the particle accelerates due to a force.” This implies that when the “Field of Awareness” (like an electric field) “permeates” Chitta (like a test charge), Chitta/Prakṛti interacts with the “field of awareness”/Puruṣa.
...
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Dear Bruno,Thank you for your considered response. It may take me a few days to digest and comment, as the idea of 'mechanism' as distinct from materialism is new to me. I have downloaded a paper of yours from academia.edu, which I hope clarifies the subject. What I would say for now is that quantum mechanics is not unique in physics in involving consciousness, maybe unique in explicitly requiring consideration of consciousness. That is, classical mechanics includes consciousness implicitly in mathematically representing what I would say amounts to 'the structures of perception', how we see and conceptualize change, point of view (i.e. reference frame), and so on.Best wishes,SiegfriedSent from Outlook
From: online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 9:49 AM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Dear Siegfried,
Best Regards.KashyapFrom: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 4:18 PM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com
Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Sehgal: But then we cannot say that this signal has emanated out from the darkness or there has been some actual interaction between the darkness and the brain. [Vimal’s paraphrase of Sehgal’s queries: Individual localized consciousness (soul, self) does not interact with Chitta-signal to experience the physical objects, i.e., Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sā ṅkhya do not interact, for example, the experience of darkness, which is a different kind of experience. Moreover, there are problems in the eDAM.]
Vimal: You are missing my point again. Darkness is simply a visual SE (like any other SE) that involves the interaction of (a) the self-related neural signals with (b) the resultant of endogenous FF (feed forward) signals representing a lack of any external light stimulus and cognitive FB (feedback) signals. As per neuroscience, darkness must have its neural correlate(s)/basis, like any other SE.I disagree with your claim: Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅkhya NEVER interact for performing any function or experience or for anything; just the proximity of Puruṣa and Prakṛti is enough, rest is all-automatic. One example is experiencing darkness, which is a different kind of experience.Of course, darkness is a different kind of experience similar to redness is different from grayness or sweetness, but the processing of neural information thru the matching and selection of a specific SE (such as darkness vs. redness) related to SE is similar in their respective NNs as mentioned above.In the eDAM, the “self” is the 1pp-mental aspect of the state of self-related NN. The external objects simply reflect or emit light, which gets converted into neural signals; then self-related signals interact with the object-related signals. Please note that physical signals interact with physical signals to avoid category mistake. A mental entity (such as self) cannot directly interact with a physical entity (such as an external object); otherwise, category mistake will be made. There is no light signal in pitch dark, which has nothing to do with my argument because the interaction is between neural signals, not with physical objects. Please, try to understand this point. That is why your half-knowledge in neuroscience and in the eDAM are causing you such a big problem to the extent you are losing all your credibility.
Sāṅkhya makes a serious category mistake. You are forcing that Puruṣa and Prakṛti of Sāṅ khya do not interact to avoid category mistake; this is where you are making a big mistake.
I would like to request you that please qualify your writing with some references. For example, you should write, “As per my understanding ofSāṅkhya Kārikā of Swarga Krishna, Kapila’s Sāṅkhya, or (Swami Yogeshwaranand Paramahans Saraswati, 2014)’s interpretation of Sāṅkhya(or whatever you have read, give the reference of the book) seems to imply that the localized Puruṣa (soul, experiencer) experiences physical objects (Prakṛti) without interacting with it.” Otherwise, your writing would be misleading, will not be taken authentic, and will lead to confusion. This is because you have not attained SS/NS state so you cannot say without such references. I have tried to write a sentence to this effect in blue text in your text below. In my writing, I follow this research ethics.
Dear Vinod ji,Thanks.As per Wikipedia (as of 4 August 2017), “In physics, a field is a physical quantity, typically a number or tensor, that has a value for each point in space and time.[1][2][3] For example, […] an electric field can be thought of as a "condition in space"[4] emanating from an electric charge and extending throughout the whole of space. When a test electric charge is placed in this electric field, the particle accelerates due to a force.” This implies that when the “Field of Awareness” (like an electric field) “permeates” Chitta (like a test charge), Chitta/Prakṛti intera cts with the “field of awareness”/Puruṣa.
...
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Dear Vinod,
We had enough discussion on negative sign of gravitational energy. I think, on this group; me, Ram, Siegfried and perhaps others represent conventional, traditional physics, some of it well established for hundreds of years and is in high school physics books. On this google group, all of us have respect for Vedanta and would like to understand what they were saying. But we do not wish to throw away established physics! If you, Avatar Singh or anyone else wants to change it, based on some ideas from Vedanta, according to your understanding, be my guest! This is a very tall order. Only one caution; these ontological ideas were thought out or even revealed thousands of years back when they had no experimental data. Previously, I gave an example of idea of eclipses brought up by Rahu and Ketu grabbing sun and moon in which our priests believe even in this twenty first century!! Your new theory will have to reproduce all the successes of the existing framework. You will have to convince ISRO scientists who orbited Mangalyaan around Mars in the very first attempt using such calculations! We cannot have two physics theories, one based on effects and the other on ontology. In general most physicists maintain that we cannot trust ontological arguments, especially after quantum theory came up. We make models to explain experimental data and if they agree, that is the end of all arguments! We do not live in caves anymore! We use so much science from the time we get up until we go to bed, all of your replacement ideas will have to account for that!
Now it is true; there are unsolved problems in physics. Dark energy, dark matter, beginning from vacuum patch which has to undergo exponential expansion etc. are very thorny issues. But as I wrote to Avatar Singh yesterday,
“the answer is not to throw away the principles which have been understood for hundreds of years. Your new theory has to explain everything that the old theory did! In a way this is like problem with the roof of a two story house. Suppose 96 percent of the roof is leaky and you do not know where the water is coming from. The answer is to rebuild the roof, not tear down the house from its foundation and the first two floors!”
Changing sign of gravitational energy is not going to solve the problem! Again, anyone is welcome to suggest modification of existing theories. There should not be any censorship. But some modifications make sense and some do not. Although, in general, arguments are good for science and they should be encouraged.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 6:27 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Dear Kashyapji,
Thanks.
I have sent another email to Dr. Ram today, with copy marked to you, regarding my views on the positive and negative energies. What I want to reiterate that both attraction ( gravitation) and repulsion are some opposite mechanical effects of the energy. The energy manifests thru its various effects mechanical motion, heat and light and physics always studies these effects which can be detected by senses. But these effects per se are not causes, The cause behind all these effects could be some ontological existence ( which in Physics we call as energy) but Physics does not go into the issue of the ontology of energy. So from the "effect" perspective, gravitational and mass energy may be positive and negative implying they can cancel each other and thus their net effect may be zero. However, from the "cause" perspective i.e ontological perspective due to which effects arise, energy has to be positive only implying having a positive existence Therefore, corresponding to the infinite ontology of the energy of our observable universe, there should also be infinite ontology at the primal stage also. This perspective seems to me quite logical.
There is all the possibility that at the primal stage, the infinite ontological existence might not be in the format of space/time and known physical energy and matter and that form of the infinite ontological existence unknown to the current Physics. After all, even in the current Physics 96% of the ontology of the universe is represented by the dark energy and dark matter. However, various hypothesis/theories dealing with the creation of the universe from vacuum, BBTs and Inflation fail to account for this 96% of the energy of the universe in form of dark energy and dark matter. After all how any theory of the universe can be called scientific if it is based on only 4% of the energy of the universe? And then dark energy/dark matter are not the inventions or hypothesis of some Saankhya or Upnishadic or Vedantic philosophies, which you say were written thousand of years ago. Dark energy and dark matter, representing majority 96% of the energy of the universe, are the inventions/hypothesis of this very Physics which proposes hypothesis of the creation of the universe from quantum vacuum following by Big Bang and cosmic inflation. In my view, any scientific theory which does not take into account the dark matter and dark energy, representing 96% energy of the universe, can't be truly scientific since it will be based on only 4% of the energy of the universe.
Regarding Saankhyan/Upnishadic/Vedantic models for the creation of the universe, the primordial level for the creation is much deeper than the primordial level as adopted as adopted by the current scientific cosmological models. Between the primordial level of Saankhayan/Vedantic cosmological models and the primordial level of the current scientific cosmological models, large realms of the physical nature encompassing the Causal and Astral Realm of nature. Corresponding to the cosmological realm of the Causal and Astral Realm, there are Causal and Astral bodies the way corresponding to the physical realm of nature ( represented by the baryonic matter and 4 forces), there is the physical body which survives for 40-50 or at the most for 100 years in the current period. The Causal and astral bodies survive the death of the physical body and recycle from birth to birth in a very long cycle of births and deaths. Anyway, the knowledge of the Astral and Causal realm ia achievable in the state of Samaadhi though by the current objective scientific methodology, it is not possible to detect and sense these realm of nature.
Regards.
Vinod Sehgal
Dear Vinod,
Rest assured, I am not ignoring the questions raised by you. But about ontological issues, I have to repeat as before, physicists cannot revise their models, based on someone’s ontological ideas. As it is clear from the discussions on this blog, nobody knows what is reality and hence physicists have to leave that issue to philosophers. Only thing physicists can demand is mathematical consistency and agreement with experimental data. For most physicists the matter ends there.
Starting from elementary mechanics (Newton’s laws) energy is defined in a unique way. I understand you took some physics courses a number of years back. You may want to review them or you may want to talk to a physics professor in a nearby college. If we were close by I would be glad to explain it by writing on a chalkboard. On e-mail it is not possible. In mechanics you start with definition of force (Newton’s laws) then define work and then energy as a body’s capacity to do work. This is then extended consistently to heat, light, electricity-magnetism and finally to atoms and sub nuclear matter. Then Newton’s laws are consistently revised to special and general relativity. As we discussed before, signs of energy come out naturally in a consistent way. Gravity is attractive. So negative potential energy is natural and no problem. If energy due to motion, kinetic energy 0.5 mv^2 or mass energy mc^2 come out negative, that will be big disaster!!
“) Mechanical motions, light, heat representing the effects of energy which are detectable/sensible by instruments but per se these effects not being energy.” Energy is associated with each object and it is exchanged between bodies like exchanging money between two persons. One person loses money in his bank (negative effect), the other person gains money (positive effect, increase in bank balance). There is no distinction between effect and energy. Thus starting with zero total energy is not a problem, once you agree that energy can be positive and negative. You have to get read of this idea in your mind that energy is something you hold in your hand! This may be the flaw in the argument.
Although there is no direct experimental evidence for dark matter and dark energy , there are plenty of indirect evidences. I cannot go through all of that in an e-mail. If you have time and interest you may want to read Wikipedia
Articles. Thus the situation is not as bad as you think. It is not that people are ignoring 96% of energy of the universe. After all subject like physics attracts plenty of intelligent people, although not much money is available!! They are constantly looking for a consistent model of universe.
As I said last time, from your daily life you have to admit success of some 400 years of physics (science in general).This is not to say that other things like religion, philosophy etc. are not important!
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 1:29 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Dear Kashyapji,
From a conventional physicist's point of view, I can appreciate your arguments and perspective. However, you have addressed none of the key issues as raised by me viz
I) Signs as assigned to gravitational and mass energies to represent their opposing effects Vs ontological existences of energies.
ii) Cosmological models for the creation of the universe based upon quantum vacuum/BB/cosmic inflation taking into account only 4% of the energy of the universe.
iii) Mechanical motions, light, heat representing the effects of energy which are detectable/sensible by instruments but per se these effects not being energy. The cause behind these effects being the ontological existence of energy is neither positive nor
negative. In view of this, corresponding to vast infinite energy of the observable universe, there should be vast infinite energy at the primordial stage also. There is also the possibility that this vast infinite energy st the primordial stage might not
be in the form, as is known to the current science. It is on account of this that current cosmology starts with zero known physical energy. But start of universe with the zero energy has a lot of logical inconsistencies and explanatory gaps, many of which
mentioned by me but no solution forthcoming.
I, further, recognize your point of view that conventional physics is either incapable or not interested in addressing the above issues. However, will this very aspect of Physics make the issues as raised as invalid? Could you please point out in a specific
manner where is the flaw in my arguments while raising these issues?
As I had indicated in my previous messages also that the Astral, Causal realms of nature and cosmic consciousness can't be studied and developed as some objective scientific hypothesis or theories simply due to the reasons that ontology of these realms is
not detectable by the objective scientific methodology
as used by the contemporary. Science.
Regards
Vinod Sehgal
Dear Vinod,
I add the following for more clarification. Energy was defined in a precise manner in mechanics following Newton. It can be routinely converted into different forms, such as kinetic energy, potential energy due to location or configuration, heat, sound, electric, magnetic and so on. When a body has energy, it has capacity to exert forces on other bodies. For example, a ball resting on a table has positive, potential energy (PE) with respect to ground, because when it falls on your foot it can break your bone! Zero of PE can be taken to be at an arbitrary point. In calculation only differences in PE play a role. So it does not make any difference where the location of your zero is. In the above example, I can take zero at ground level. Then PE of ball is positive. I can take zero of PE at the table also. Then ground level will have negative PE and PE of ball is zero on the table. For a system of particles it is convenient to take zero at infinity. Then gravitational (attractive) PE for bodies comes out to be negative for smaller distances not infinity. In case of electric forces, since they can be both attractive and repulsive, PE comes out negative or positive in attractive or repulsive cases respectively. So plus and minus signs in PE are natural!
After Newton’s mechanics, all natural sciences such as chemistry, biology adopted these definitions of energy. Applied sciences such as medical sciences and then engineering and technology followed these conventions, sometime with same or different units.
It may very well be that energy (Shakti?) has a different connotation in Vedanta. That is why all this confusion arose. I have even heard the word “psychic energy” . I do not know how it is defined. In any case I assure you that definition of energy in science is unique and there is no problem with it being positive or negative. You are disturbed by E(total ) =0. But that has kinetic energy positive and can lead to expansion. As I said before, a ball ( or a rocket) with a positive kinetic energy will go up in spite of gravity pulling it down and its gravitational energy is negative on surface of earth with our convention that it is zero at infinite distance from earth.
A repulsive cosmological constant or inflaton field at the beginning will add positive energy, but gravitational energy will be negative forever! I trust this will be clarify the matter once for all!
Best Regards.
kashyap
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Vasavada, Kashyap V
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 5:16 PM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] RE: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
. On e-mail it is not possible.
. If energy due to motion, kinetic energy 0.5 mv^2 or mass energy mc^2 come out negative, that will be big disaster!!
“) Mechanical motions, light, heat representing the effects of energy which are detectable/sensible by instruments but per se these effects not being energy.” Energy is associated with each object and it is exchanged between bodies like exchanging money between two persons. One person loses money in his bank (negative effect), the other person gains money (positive effect, increase in bank balance). There is no distinction between effect and energy. Thus starting with zero total energy is not a problem, once you agree that energy can be positive and negative. You have to get read of this idea in your mind that energy is something you hold in your hand! This may be the flaw in the argument.
Although there is no direct experimental evidence for dark matter and dark energy , there are plenty of indirect evidences. I cannot go through all of that in an e-mail. If you have time and interest you may want to read Wikipedia
Articles. Thus the situation is not as bad as you think. It is not that people are ignoring 96% of energy of the universe. After all subject like physics attracts plenty of intelligent people, although not much money is available!! They are constantly looking for a consistent model of universe.
As I said last time, from your daily life you have to admit success of some 400 years of physics (science in general).This is not to say that other things like religion, philosophy etc. are not important!
Best Regards.
Kashyap
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Dear Avtar,
I have combined my reply to the two of your previous mails.
As I and Ram have emphasized a number of times, negative sign of gravitational Potential Energy (GPE) (gravitation is always attractive) comes naturally when you take GPE as zero when objects are at infinite distance from each other. This is allowed and it is a natural choice. You can take it to be zero anywhere if you watch out for relative signs but that is not going to solve the problems of dark matter and dark energy. For expansion, you are right; attractive gravity will not help. You need a repulsive force which is supposed to be provided by inflaton field and cosmological constant or a similar quantum field called quintessence. For repulsive field the potential energy will be positive.
First let us discuss motion of a rocket near earth as NASA, ISRO and other space agencies are doing. If you have a rocket of mass m and earth of mass M and radius R,
the correct expression for GPE is –GMm/R. mgh is an approximation as a simple exercise can show. Diff between PE at height h and the earth’s surface is
-GMm/(R+h) – (- GMm/R) ~ mgh when h is small compared to R. (g=GM/R^2) so for rocket motion in planetary dynamics the correct expression -GMm/r should be used and not mgh.
Then E (total energy) at launch pad is given by (for simplicity late us take non relativistic rocket (rest mass energy does not change)
E= 0.5 mv (1) ^2 – GmM/R = 0.5 mv (2) ^2 – GMm/r at a distance r from the earth’s center by conservation of energy.
If you require v (2) to be zero at infinity, E =0, then v (1) becomes escape velocity ~ about 7 mi/s for leaving earth. If you give enough boost to get v (1)> v (escape) then E >o and the rocket not only will escape the earth’s field but will continue with a non-zero velocity for a long time. On the other hand if v (1) ~ 5mi/sec it will get into earth’s orbit. You can check that in this case E<0 which is required for a bound orbit to earth. (Bound orbits have negative total energy). But if v (1) is much less than 5 mi/sec, E<0 it will reach some height because of initial speed but will fall back to earth after some time. The last case has happened several times when the initial boost from ignition does not give the rocket enough initial velocity. I emphasize that E (total) > 0 is not necessary. For any non-zero v (1) the rocket will go up may be only a few feet and then fall back. When you throw a ball up in the above equation E<0 and the ball falls back after achieving certain height. In actual practice they use multistage rocket but for simplicity and to save my figures from fatigue due to too much typing I have considered a single stage system! The principle should be clear. Such an analysis is used by NASA and ISRO successfully. You cannot use singularity arguments to doubt this! So – sign is ok and do not use mgh for planetary flights.
Beginning of universe is a complicated case due to a possible singularity, but no one will believe that changing sign of GPE will solve the problem. By the way, there are issues that dark matter and dark energy have not been detected directly, but there are so many indirect evidences such as rotation of stars around galactic centers, bending of starlight by some unknown matter, analysis of cosmic microwave background etc., that there are some features which would have to remain in a final theory. Thus as a said in a joke last time, removing foundation is not necessary to solve the leaky roof problem! I purposely took example of non-relativistic rocket to avoid complications of relativity. But the case with relativity will be similar energy and mass can be mutually converted into each other. But you have to account for where each came from.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
Dear Ram and Avtar,
Again I will give an answer which is in line with the consensus of majority of physicists. It seems Avatarji does not believe in it. That is perfectly ok. Science does and should encourage disagreements and there should not be any censorship.
Now, expansion of space faster than c is not believed to be violation of special theory of relativity (SR). Space is not a material object. The speed limit is applied to two material objects , such as two rockets or two galaxies passing each other. If the observers on either one measures the other’s velocity to be greater than c by bouncing light or radar beams off the other than there would be surely violation of SR. But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. So like two ants on an expanding balloon, each one thinks that the other one is flying away. The relative velocities are measured by what is called red shift= z= shift in wavelength/original wave length. For small velocities z is equal to v/c and is essentially like Doppler shift. So when you observe farther and farther galaxies , z increases. Eventually z will become infinite (I have to look up what is the maximum z they have observed) and faraway galaxies which are apparently (not really) seeming to be moving with v approaching c and eventually exceeding c will be unobservable. Space will be expanding faster than light. So light signals will never reach us. That is the limit of the observable universe. There may be galaxies and whole big universe outside, but that will never be observable!
I understand this is the current consensus. The problem with Avatarji’s suggestion is that it is in conflict with many facts of SR which have been verified for decades and perhaps close to 100 years. If Ram finds that it is not, I would like to understand. But at this point it looks like, throwing away the entire foundation of SR and GR is not necessary and it is not likely to solve the fundamental issues.
By the way, they do not use linear Hubble model as z becomes very large. They have to introduce SR and GR (general relativistic) corrections any way, z not equal to v/c. But v(apparent) > c problem is supposed to be solved by the above reasoning.
Best regards.
Kashyap
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
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Dear Avtar, Vinod, Ram and others,
Perhaps it will be useful to mention history of how the idea of space expansion came about. As soon as Hubble and some others realized that galaxies were going away from us, it became clear that Einstein’s equations even with or without cosmological constant (cc) were predicting that steady state universe was impossible and indeed they were predicting expansion which Einstein missed and called cc as his biggest blunder in life!! Since it is foolish to believe that we are at the center of the universe, it became clear that from the point of view of every galaxy, other galaxies must be receding from it. The only way to make this compatible is to assume that space between every galaxy was expanding. There is no choice. Otherwise we have to believe in the foolish idea that we are at the center of the universe. This gave rise to the metaphor of ants on an expanding balloon where from the point of view of each ant the other ants were moving away at a speed proportional to their distance which is Hubble’s law. From elementary physics you can show that only in this case the same law will apply to each galaxy. Any other law will not be consistent with application to each galaxy. A specific galaxy like ours will be special which would be nonsense. Now, how can space expand, that is one of those weird things (from our everyday life perspective) like other things in modern physics such as quantum theory and theory of relativity.
Vinod : you can interpret galaxies flying away from us at v>c if you want , but as I explained , without measurement, it does not violate SR. The Radar or light beams from that galaxy will never reach us to create any conflict with SR. The whole business in physics is about measurement (even in thought) . Without measurement, ideas in physics do not mean anything.
Kind regards,Rām
----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Kind regards,Rām
----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Kind regards,Rām
----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
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Nature has no censorship on the observable or comprehensible universe. The limited and incomplete human awareness is the only impediment to the holistic understanding of the universe and consciousness.
Best RegardsAvtar Singh, Sc.D.Alumni, MITAuthor of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
To: Kashyap V. Vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Matters Of Mind <matters...@googlegroups.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 15, 2017 8:17 am
Subject: Re: [MoM] Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Dear Kashyap, Stan, Avtar, and Vinod ji,Thanks.As per Linear Hubble model (LHM) and perhaps the Lambda-CDM (Cold Dark Matter)model, only a part of the whole universe should be observable where the physical information transfer velocity vp≤c because the expansion velocity ve>c after 14 billion light-years.As per (Singh, 2017)’s Relativistic Universe Expansion (RUE), the whole universe should be observable because of the expansion velocity ve and the physical information transfer velocity vp≤c.As per Vinod Sehgal, at the highest level of Samādhi state, yogi’s soul is:(i) Capable of getting out of his/her body-brain-mind system,(ii) Capable of traveling at speed vs>>c and able to visit all unobservable universes and fetch all the information needed (by NASA and ISRO) instantly.(iii) In addition, if NASA and ISRO want to affect whatever is going on unobservable universes, the yogi’s soul is capable of doing this job. Please note that soul is immortal, and high and low temperature or anything cannot affect the soul. In addition, it is a non-invasive effort because yogi’s soul will return back to his/her body-brain-mind system after completing such tasks.Perhaps Vinod ji and similar yoga-groups who firmly claim (i)-(iii), should try convincing NASA and ISRO to invest some money on such yogis who are willing to participate in their research.
Kind regards,Rām----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Kashyap wrote to Avtar and Ram:"But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. "When the space between the galaxies expands, it means galaxies are also taken away with the expansion of the space amounting to a fact that galaxies are somehow tethered to space. Had galaxies been not tethered to space, space beneath the galaxies would have expanded in a slip away mode with galaxies remaining at the same position in space. But space in itself has no marker to ascertain and measure its expansion The expansion of the space is ascertained and measured from the relative position of the galaxies by measuring the red shift of the light emanating from galaxies.So when space between the galaxies expands away at v>c which will also push away galaxies at v>c, why this pushing should not be interpreted as the motion of the galaxies at v>c?
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Ram and Avtar,Again I will give an answer which is in line with the consensus of majority of physicists. It seems Avatarji does not believe in it. That is perfectly ok. Science does and should encourage disagreements and there should not be any censorship.Now, expansion of space faster than c is not believed to be violation of special theory of relativity (SR). Space is not a material object. The speed limit is applied to two material objects , such as two rockets or two galaxies passing each other. If the observers on either one measures the other’s velocity to be greater than c by bouncing light or radar beams off the other than there would be surely violation of SR. But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. So like two ants on an expanding balloon, each one thinks that the other one is flying away. The relative velocities are measured by what is called red shift= z= shift in wavelength/original wave length. For small velocities z is equal to v/c and is essentially like Doppler shift. So when you observe farther and farther galaxies , z increases. Eventually z will become infinite (I have to look up what is the maximum z they have observed) and faraway galaxies which are apparently (not really) seeming to be moving with v approaching c and eventually exceeding c will be unobservable. Space will be expanding faster than light. So light signals will never reach us. That is the limit of the observable universe. There may be galaxies and whole big universe outside, but that will never be observable!I understand this is the current consensus. The problem with Avatarji’s suggestion is that it is in conflict with many facts of SR which have been verified for decades and perhaps close to 100 years. If Ram finds that it is not, I would like to understand. But at this point it looks like, throwing away the entire foundation of SR and GR is not necessary and it is not likely to solve the fundamental issues.By the way, they do not use linear Hubble model as z becomes very large. They have to introduce SR and GR (general relativistic) corrections any way, z not equal to v/c. But v(apparent) > c problem is supposed to be solved by the above reasoning.Best regards.Kashyap
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal [mailto:rlpv...@yahoo.co.in]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 10:38 PM
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com>
Subject: Re: [MoM] Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Continuation of my previous email:Dear Avtar and Kashyap,[15]. Expansion velocitySingh: As per (Singh, 2017), “For values of R larger than approximately 14 billion light-years, the expansion velocity calculated by the Linear Hubble model (LHM) exceeds the velocity of light C and hence, violates the theory of relativity. The velocity predicted by RUE, on the other hand, approaches the speed of light C asymptotically as R increases indefinitely.”Vimal: What about the prediction of Lambda-CDM model: does it also predict that the expansion velocity exceeds the velocity of light similar to LHM
Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Monday, 14 August 2017 4:57 PM, 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com> wrote:
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
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Dear Ram, Singh, Kashyap and Stan,My comments are given in blue text font after the comments of Ram.
As per Linear Hubble model (LHM) and perhaps the Lambda-CDM (Cold Dark Matter)model, only a part of the whole universe should be observable where the physical information transfer velocity vp≤c because the expansion velocity ve>c after 14 billion light-years.
This can be well understood that if expansion velocity of galaxies is v>c, information from that part of the universe will never reach us since information can't travel at >c, therefore, we will never be able to observe that part of the universe.
As per (Singh, 2017)’s Relativistic Universe Expansion (RUE), the whole universe should be observable because of the expansion velocity ve and the physical information transfer velocity vp≤c.
I don't understand as to how expansion velocity v for galaxies at distances >14 billion light years is v<c
As per Vinod Sehgal, at the highest level of Samādhi state, yogi’s soul is:(i) Capable of getting out of his/her body-brain-mind system,
No, the soul never goes from here to there. The soul is the manifestation of the universal cosmic consciousness in the causal body ( Chitta to be more specific one) like the universal space can manifest in different containers. The way space within a container can't move from here to there, similarly, the conscious soul also does not move from here to there. The thing which actually moves out of body from here to there is the Astral body which unlike the conscious soul is non- conscious physical entity and this propagates within the Astral realm of nature
(ii) Capable of traveling at speed vs>>c and able to visit all unobservable universes and fetch all the information needed (by NASA and ISRO) instantly.
The Astral body travels within the Astral realm and NOT the physical realm. In the Astral realm, the e.m energy of the physical world is not present, therefore, limitations of the speed of c as applicable to e.m energy are not applicable. The astral body travels and reaches the desired destination merely by the will.
(iii) In addition, if NASA and ISRO want to affect whatever is going on unobservable universes, the yogi’s soul is capable of doing this job. Please note that soul is immortal, and high and low temperature or anything cannot affect the soul. In addition, it is a non-invasive effort because yogi’s soul will return back to his/her body-brain-mind system after completing such tasks.
As indicated in the aforesaid, it is the physical Astral body which travels out of the physical body at the mere will. Like the soul, the Astral body is also not affected by the temperature, mechanical effectsIn the above context, the unobservable universe is of two types vizi) The physical universe but spatiotemporally beyond the reach of the physical information of e.m energy. The type of the universe situated at more than 14 billion light years belong to this category.ii) The Astral and causal parts which spatiotemporally are very much here but none of the signal of e.m energy can enter in/out of these realms to our physical world. In view of this, by the objective methodology, we can't know of these worlds.For example, our thoughts comprise of some Astral ontology in the Astral realm. But we as scientists are unaware of the ontology of thoughts since scientists objective methodology is dependent on e/m signals and such signals don't enter in/out of the Astral realm.However, when thoughts are produced in the Astral mind, their physical effects are projected on the brain in form of e.m waves ( Alpha to Delta e.m waves). But these e.m waves from Alpha to delta range per se are not thoughts but the physical counterparts of thoughts in the brain.
Perhaps Vinod ji and similar yoga-groups who firmly claim (i)-(iii), should try convincing NASA and ISRO to invest some money on such yogis who are willing to participate in their research.
First such scientists of NASA and ISRO need to have a clear understanding and get the conviction of the existence of the trans-physical Astral and causal worlds, which though are the physical realms of nature, but beyond and out of the known physicality of the baryonic matter and 4 fundamental forces. Investing money for such yogis is not an issue at all since for a person who can take his Astral body anywhere out of their physical body, money and other mundane things are not a consideration at all.Regards.Vinod Sehgal
On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 3:04 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Avtar,Thanks for your kind reply. My further queries are in blue texts.[2] Singh: A biological or sensual experience comes from the brain; no brain no biological senses and hence no biological conscious experience in spite of the eternal universal consciousness [God] prevailing in the universe.Vimal: As far as we know, God and soul do not have their own brains (as we do), then they cannot have conscious experiences (as trichromats experience redness when they look at a ripe tomato). Do you agree?
[11] Singh: V=0, R=0 represent zero motion (deadness, no life) and zero domain (radius) of awareness, hence unconsciousness or death just like at the center of a black hole crunched by the attractive pull of gravity.V=C, R~infinity represent spontaneously expanding (Brahma), no gravity or attachment, fully enlightened (zero mass or ego), fully dilated time (eternal), fully dilated space (omnipresent).Vimal: These are metaphorical representations. In my view, you seem to have stretched physical cosmology too much to relate it to human unconsciousness to consciousness. I do not think that it will work. I will leave it Vinod (Sehgal) to make further ontological and logical comments.[16] URM/RUE model to fit more data
Vimal: Please provide URM/RUE model fits on all the data shown in (Wright, 2015). Then we will able to compare it with other models' predictions.Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
...
[Message clipped]
I maintain (1) in which consciousness stays at the brain/body level but due to changes in the TPJ physilogy in the brain, a "feeling" of OBEs is produced. In reality, self or consciosuness stays within body/brain but physical mechanism producing the feeling of self and physical mechanism producing integration of senses with the senses gets disturbed or dismantled ( probably due to TPJ physiological changes), therefore, producing an apparent feeling of OBEs.
Dear Avtar,
Thanks.Sehgal: If Avtar says that God cosmic consciousness can't have the experience without the brain and God is really not having any brain, does he want a deaf, dumb and senseless God?Singh: Cosmic consciousness is all inclusive of lower level consciousness of body/brain/mind even if it does not have a material body/brain.Vimal: Then what is the answer my old simple query: What color will God experience if He looks at a ripe-tomato?
Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Tuesday, 15 August 2017 3:10 PM, "'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegrou ps.com> wrote:
Dear Ram:
Vimal: What are your comments on God, soul, astral and causal bodies related to Sāṅkhya and Vedānta? Can you derive 18 elementary particles from 5 tanmātras?Avtar:God = Universal ConsciousnessSoul = MindBodies = Matter
Vimal: What is your definition of “consciousness’ and what is the difference between “universal consciousness” and “biological consciousness”?Avtar:Universal Consciousness = Cosmic laws and Order, Non-duality, Spontaneity, EternityBiological Consciousness = Experienced by mind/brain – senses, emotions, thoughts, feelings, dreams etc.
Vimal: Do you mean that all natural laws (physical, biological and other laws) self-existent or inherent in Nature, which have nothing to do with OOO God?Avtar:
God is a personalized or human conceptualized name (interpretation) given to the cosmic law and order. There is no real big daddy sitting in the skies and commanding the universe.
Vimal: Is this “fundamental universal consciousness or awareness” in the form of laws or is this OOO God (fully manifested consciousness as Vinod Sehgal claims) or is it in potential form (Universal potential Consciousness as the eDAM proposes)? …….Is your framework is based on the (a) top-down approach (from OOO God to us, and from 5 tanmātras to 18 elementary particles) as in Vedānta and Sāṅkhya OR (b) bottom-up approach using BB or (quasi-)steady state[i] or other scientific model using theory of co-evolution and Buddhist dependent co-origination as in the eDAM.Avtar: URM integrates matter, mind, consciousness in both a top-down and bottoms-up framework as a continuum.
Vimal: If URM/RUE is one of the quasi-steady state (QSS) models, then how is URM/RUE related to Mini-Bangs (pockets of creation occurring over time within the universe) suggested by QSS model of (Hoyle, Burbidge & Narlikar, 1993).Avtar: Yes, URM is QSS model. There is no big bang or mini-bangs.
Vimal: If there is no beginning (onset) of our universe, then what is the meaning of “initial state”? In your QSS URM model, it seems that there is no evolution, i.e., a life began about 4 billion years ago is incorrect: is this true?Avtar:Time, beginning, initial state, and evolution are temporal relative realities within the lower level consciousness state of mind/matter. There is no absolute time in the universe.
Vimal: It is unclear what you mean by “unconsciousness (V=0, R=0) to full consciousness (V=C, R~ ∞)”. Literally, how at rest (velocity V =0) at the location of a human being (R=0) s/he is unconscious and at velocity V = C (speed of light) at a very large distance (R~ ∞) s/he is fully conscious? It makes no sense to me.Avtar:
V=0, R=0 represent zero motion (deadness, no life) and zero domain (radius) of awareness, hence unconsciousness or death just like at the center of a black hole crunched by attractive pull of gravity.
V=C, R~infinity represent spontaneously expanding (Brahma), no gravity or attachment, fully enlightened (zero mass or ego), fully dilated time (eternal), fully dilated space (omnipresent).
Vimal:… there seems to be a contradiction between two models (BBM and QSS-URM/RUE). How do you address this?Avtar:I have addressed the above in my earlier e-mail pointing differing approach from the mainstream “boxed” approach. Agreement with universe observations without any unresolved paradoxes (dark energy, dark matter) vindicates the approach.
Best RegardsAvtar Singh, Sc.D.Alumni, MITAuthor of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
-----Original Message-----
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
Cc: vvimaldhye <vvima...@gmail.com>; sisir.sisirroy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; matters-of-mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegrou ps.com>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Kashyap V. Vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Sent: Mon, Aug 14, 2017 1:57 pm
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
...
[Message clipped]
Nature has no censorship on the observable or comprehensible universe. The limited and incomplete human awareness is the only impediment to the holistic understanding of the universe and consciousness.
Best RegardsAvtar Singh, Sc.D.Alumni, MITAuthor of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
To: Kashyap V. Vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Matters Of Mind <matters...@googlegroups.com>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 15, 2017 8:17 am
Subject: Re: [MoM] Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Dear Kashyap, Stan, Avtar, and Vinod ji,Thanks.
As per Linear Hubble model (LHM) and perhaps the Lambda-CDM (Cold Dark Matter)model, only a part of the whole universe should be observable where the physical information transfer velocity vp≤c because the expansion velocity ve>c after 14 billion light-years.
As per (Singh, 2017)’s Relativistic Universe Expansion (RUE), the whole universe should be observable because of the expansion velocity ve and the physical information transfer velocity vp≤c.
As per Vinod Sehgal, at the highest level of Samādhi state, yogi’s soul is:(i) Capable of getting out of his/her body-brain-mind system,
(ii) Capable of traveling at speed vs>>c and able to visit all unobservable universes and fetch all the information needed (by NASA and ISRO) instantly.
(iii) In addition, if NASA and ISRO want to affect whatever is going on unobservable universes, the yogi’s soul is capable of doing this job. Please note that soul is immortal, and high and low temperature or anything cannot affect the soul. In addition, it is a non-invasive effort because yogi’s soul will return back to his/her body-brain-mind system after completing such tasks.
Perhaps Vinod ji and similar yoga-groups who firmly claim (i)-(iii), should try convincing NASA and ISRO to invest some money on such yogis who are willing to participate in their research.
Kind regards,Rām----------------------------------------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
Kashyap wrote to Avtar and Ram:"But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. "When the space between the galaxies expands, it means galaxies are also taken away with the expansion of the space amounting to a fact that galaxies are somehow tethered to space. Had galaxies been not tethered to space, space beneath the galaxies would have expanded in a slip away mode with galaxies remaining at the same position in space. But space in itself has no marker to ascertain and measure its expansion The expansion of the space is ascertained and measured from the relative position of the galaxies by measuring the red shift of the light emanating from galaxies.So when space between the galaxies expands away at v>c which will also push away galaxies at v>c, why this pushing should not be interpreted as the motion of the galaxies at v>c?
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
Dear Ram and Avtar,Again I will give an answer which is in line with the consensus of majority of physicists. It seems Avatarji does not believe in it. That is perfectly ok. Science does and should encourage disagreements and there should not be any censorship.Now, expansion of space faster than c is not believed to be violation of special theory of relativity (SR). Space is not a material object. The speed limit is applied to two material objects , such as two rockets or two galaxies passing each other. If the observers on either one measures the other’s velocity to be greater than c by bouncing light or radar beams off the other than there would be surely violation of SR. But the galaxies are essentially fixed . (Some of them have relative velocities much smaller than c). The space between them expands. So like two ants on an expanding balloon, each one thinks that the other one is flying away. The relative velocities are measured by what is called red shift= z= shift in wavelength/original wave length. For small velocities z is equal to v/c and is essentially like Doppler shift. So when you observe farther and farther galaxies , z increases. Eventually z will become infinite (I have to look up what is the maximum z they have observed) and faraway galaxies which are apparently (not really) seeming to be moving with v approaching c and eventually exceeding c will be unobservable. Space will be expanding faster than light. So light signals will never reach us. That is the limit of the observable universe. There may be galaxies and whole big universe outside, but that will never be observable!I understand this is the current consensus. The problem with Avatarji’s suggestion is that it is in conflict with many facts of SR which have been verified for decades and perhaps close to 100 years. If Ram finds that it is not, I would like to understand. But at this point it looks like, throwing away the entire foundation of SR and GR is not necessary and it is not likely to solve the fundamental issues.By the way, they do not use linear Hubble model as z becomes very large. They have to introduce SR and GR (general relativistic) corrections any way, z not equal to v/c. But v(apparent) > c problem is supposed to be solved by the above reasoning.Best regards.KashyapFrom: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal [mailto:rlpv...@yahoo.co.in]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 10:38 PM
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com>
Subject: Re: [MoM] Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Continuation of my previous email:Dear Avtar and Kashyap,[15]. Expansion velocitySingh: As per (Singh, 2017), “For values of R larger than approximately 14 billion light-years, the expansion velocity calculated by the Linear Hubble model (LHM) exceeds the velocity of light C and hence, violates the theory of relativity. The velocity predicted by RUE, on the other hand, approaches the speed of light C asymptotically as R increases indefinitely.”Vimal: What about the prediction of Lambda-CDM model: does it also predict that the expansion velocity exceeds the velocity of light similar to LHM
Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Monday, 14 August 2017 4:57 PM, 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com> wrote:
Dear Avtar,
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Monday, 14 August 2017 2:38 PM, "'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dear Ram:Q: Where does the “positive expansive energy” come from?
Positive expansions energy comes from transformation of mass to kinetic energy just like wave energy comes from a quantum particle. It also follows from the principle of mass-energy equivalence.
Please read my articles wherein this has been described mathematically.
Q: Does this imply a brain is necessary for a conscious experience and if there is no brain, there is no conscious experience?
A biological or sensual experience comes from the brain; no brain no biological senses and hence no biological conscious experience in spite of the eternal universal consciousness prevailing in the universe.
Q: Do you mean all living and non-living systems are conscious (as in panpsychism)? ……You seem to reject materialism, so what is your metaphysics, idealism/Advaita, ‘interactive substance dualism’/‘dualistic Sāṅkhya’, or dual-aspect monism?
I do not reject materialism but simply extend it to integrate it with the universal reality. Please do not try to label or assign an “…ism” to my work. I am doing only fundamental science based on the well-established laws of conservation and relativity. This approach provides a bridge between all “….isms” you mention providing a seemless vision of the wholesome reality of the universe. Any labeling would demean the wholesome integrated approach.However, since universal reality is one and only one, genuine wholesome science and genuine spirituality are also same and not apart from each other. Various ".....isms" fall apart and get lost in the never land.
Best RegardsAvtar Singh, Sc.D.Alumni, MITAuthor of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
-----Original Message-----
From: 'Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@ googlegroups.com>
To: Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>; vinodsehgal1955 <vinodse...@gmail.com>; vasavada <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sadhu_sanga@ googlegroups.com>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Roy Sisir <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Matters Of Mind <matters-of-mind@googlegroups. com>
Sent: Sun, Aug 13, 2017 10:32 am
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
Dear Avtar,
Thanks.Q: Where does the “positive expansive energy” come from? If you have any article please email me.I am currently in the process of reading your articles.
Thanks for the articles and links. I need to understand your framework first so please help me. The following quotes are from (Singh, 2017). So far, I have the following queries:
[1]. “What changes occur in the physical states of the brain a moment before and a moment after death that lead to the cessation of the biological consciousness? […] the brain malfunctions or breaks down, such as during a coma or death, the mind stops working ceasing the conscious experiences.”
Does this imply a brain is necessary for a conscious experience and if there is no brain, there is no conscious experience?
[2]. “The fact that every location in space and every moment of time in the universe is aware of the universal laws points to the existence of awareness of a universal mind or consciousness.”Does this contradicts the above [1] in the sense brain is not necessary if “universal consciousness” also mean experiences and experiencer (such as the “self” in human being)? It seems that we need to define the terms before using them; otherwise, confusion will occur. What is “consciousness’ and what is the difference between “universal consciousness” and “biological consciousness”?[3] “Furthermore, the presence of conscious beings and the prevailing cosmic order are not possible in a universe that is not conscious.”
Do you mean all living and non-living systems are conscious (as in panpsychism)?You seem to reject materialism, so what is your metaphysics, idealism/Advaita, ‘interactive substance dualism’/‘dualistic Sāṅkhya’, or dual-aspect monism?
Kind regards,Rām------------------------------ ----------------------------Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USAPh: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
The root cause of the missing 96% (dark energy/dark matter) from the current standard model Big Bang cosmology is complete ignorance of the positive expansive anti-gravitational energy of the universe. Because of this fundamental deficiency, Einstein proposed a fudge factor Cosmological Constant to fix the issue, and even today it remains as the only viable explanation of dark energy causing the observed accelerated expansion of the universe.
What I have tried to show that adding to relativity the missing physics of spontaneous mass/energy conversion observed in wave/particle complimentarity and mass/energy equivalence principle, solves this problem and provides a physical basis for Dark Energy or cosmological constant eliminating the artificial fudge factor as well as paradoxes/inconsistencies of physics and cosmology (GR, QM, standard model etc). Such an integrated approach predicts the observed expansion of the universe without the paradoxes of the Big Bang standard model and QM.Expansive energy cannot be artificially created from the mis-conceived negative gravitational energy. Gravitational energy could only cause an inward contracting collapse or crunch such as in a black hole but could not lead to the observed expansion of the universe. Positive expansion energy is required to create or store a gravitational potential energy (termed negative). Negative GPE has no existence of its own without the positive expansive energy. This fundamental misconception has led to various weird concepts such as inflation, multiple universes, fine tuning, dark energy, dark matter, big bang, and unexplained weirdness of QM including the collapse of the wave function, etc.
Best RegardsAvtar Singh, Sc.D.Alumni, MITAuthor of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality"
-----Original Message-----
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
> To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Asingh2384 <asing...@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
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> Dear Kashyapji,
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> Thanks.
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> I have sent another email to Dr. Ram today, with copy marked to you, regarding my views on the positive and negative energies. What I want to reiterate that both attraction ( gravitation) and repulsion are some opposite mechanical effects of the energy. The energy manifests thru its various effects mechanical motion, heat and light and physics always studies these effects which can be detected by senses. But these effects per se are not causes, The cause behind all these effects could be some ontological existence ( which in Physics we call as energy) but Physics does not go into the issue of the ontology of energy. So from the "effect" perspective, gravitational and mass energy may be positive and negative implying they can cancel each other and thus their net effect may be zero. However, from the "cause" perspective i.e ontological perspective due to which effects arise, energy has to be positive only implying having a positive existence Therefore, corresponding to the infinite ontology of the energy of our observable universe, there should also be infinite ontology at the primal stage also. This perspective seems to me quite logical.
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> There is all the possibility that at the primal stage, the infinite ontological existence might not be in the format of space/time and known physical energy and matter and that form of the infinite ontological existence unknown to the current Physics. After all, even in the current Physics 96% of the ontology of the universe is represented by the dark energy and dark matter. However, various hypothesis/theories dealing with the creation of the universe from vacuum, BBTs and Inflation fail to account for this 96% of the energy of the universe in form of dark energy and dark matter. After all how any theory of the universe can be called scientific if it is based on only 4% of the energy of the universe? And then dark energy/dark matter are not the inventions or hypothesis of some Saankhya or Upnishadic or Vedantic philosophies, which you say were written thousand of years ago. Dark energy and dark matter, representing majority 96% of the energy of the universe, are the inventions/hypothesis of this very Physics which proposes hypothesis of the creation of the universe from quantum vacuum following by Big Bang and cosmic inflation. In my view, any scientific theory which does not take into account the dark matter and dark energy, representing 96% energy of the universe, can't be truly scientific since it will be based on only 4% of the energy of the universe.
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> Regarding Saankhyan/Upnishadic/Vedantic models for the creation of the universe, the primordial level for the creation is much deeper than the primordial level as adopted as adopted by the current scientific cosmological models. Between the primordial level of Saankhayan/Vedantic cosmological models and the primordial level of the current scientific cosmological models, large realms of the physical nature encompassing the Causal and Astral Realm of nature. Corresponding to the cosmological realm of the Causal and Astral Realm, there are Causal and Astral bodies the way corresponding to the physical realm of nature ( represented by the baryonic matter and 4 forces), there is the physical body which survives for 40-50 or at the most for 100 years in the current period. The Causal and astral bodies survive the death of the physical body and recycle from birth to birth in a very long cycle of births and deaths. Anyway, the knowledge of the Astral and Causal realm ia achievable in the state of Samaadhi though by the current objective scientific methodology, it is not possible to detect and sense these realm of nature.
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> Regards.
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> Vinod Sehgal
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> On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 9:05 PM, Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:
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> Dear Vinod,
>
> I maintain that, whatever differences there may be in the view points, dear (first name, you might add ji if you feel like!) is the polite and nice way to carry conversations further, especially while conversing at a distance.
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> Anyway, as I said before, our differences may be due to our attitudes. Established physics (science in general) takes priority in my mind compared to whatever was thought or written thousands of years back. I am certainly interested in Vedanta, Sankhya etc. Whenever talks on such subjects are available in my neighborhood, I go and listen and occasionally read about them also. (In fact a Vedantic scholar, from a city about 200 miles from here, has kindly agreed to come here once a month and talk on Vedanta for several hours. These days he is talking about Prashnopanishad!) On the other hand you seem to have priority in believing such things even if it conflicts with established science. That is fine with me. Different people have different frames of mind.
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> Now as I said, I am talking about physical models of origin of universe for which there is majority consensus; surely not 100 percent! Nothing in science is 100 percent nor should it be. Scientists should be willing to drop their favorite model at the drop of a hat, when evidence is pointing against it.
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> I do not understand why we get hung up on sign of gravitational energy. Where you locate your zero for potential energy is arbitrary and results of calculation cannot change by changing location of zero. Since gravity is always attractive, it is convenient to set zero when objects are at infinite distance from each other. This makes gravitational energy negative when they are at any other distance. We teach this in Freshmen College and high school physics all the time. If there is a college nearby, you might talk to a physics professor. Of course once you choose location of zero, you cannot keep on changing during the calculation. This is some 400 years of wisdom since Newton’s time. NASA and ISRO send spacecraft all the time with this kind of calculations. Their success should be an evidence for correctness of these ideas! While I was writing this, I saw an e-mail by Vimal where he explains the negative sign in an elaborate way. As far as I can tell, there is nothing non-ontological about negative gravitational potential energy. This is just a book keeping method which is consistent.
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> Now, fluctuations in quantum fields come from uncertainty principle. When you confine quantum fields in a small space, the fields and energy will have to fluctuate. If you believe in quantum physics, there is no choice. How can our universe come about from a fluctuating quantum field is a subtle question; more philosophical than physics question. “This negates the whole concept of the universe emanating out as per some Laws/Rules.” No. This is completely consistent with uncertainty principle. If you believe in quantum physics, you have to believe in uncertainty principle. There is no choice! You cannot pick and choose in science. The whole science comes as a package! In a way this question is similar to the debate about evolution and creationism. Creationists would argue that if the complete blueprint of how to design life is known to God for example, it should not take 4 Billion years of trial and error to produce human beings. Scientists, even believers, would say that is how the laws of nature operate.
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> The universe in the beginning had minimum entropy. It has been increasing ever since then. If there is a big crunch and start over, there will have to be some mechanism to reduce the entropy.
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> Again, all of this is consistent with the laws of physics as of today. They may look weird from our everyday experience. But we should not expect that universe should be consistent with what a little human being can rationalize from his/her everyday experience!!
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> Best Regards.
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> Kashyap
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> From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodsehgal1955@gmail. com]
> Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 3:02 AM
> To: Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>
> Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: 11 Problems of Sankhya and Interactive substance dualism
>
>
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