Rudolph Tanzi, RE: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualia
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Rudy,
At the moment I am open to all ideas about quantum mechanics, sentient observation and particle interactions. Perhaps you can elaborate what you mean by “fine line” .
With regards.
Kashyap
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Rudolph Tanzi
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 6:34 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Cc: C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
Subject: Re: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualia
Dear Kashyap,
I would think there may be a fine line between “sentient observation” of a human and “reaction to an interaction” of a particle in considering experiences that define realties.
Rudy
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Rudy Tanzi
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Serge Patlavskiy
From: "'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: "online_sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Rudolph Tanzi, RE: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualia
C. S. Morrison
Dear Jack, Rudy and others,
Might I offer the alternative suggestion that anyone who does not understand the implications of DARWIN's theory doesn't understand consciousness. We don't know what consciousness is. But we do know that it is a highly complex instance of something that appears perfectly organised for some function - the encoding of sensory information (real or imagined) in a genetically evaluated way ( where by genetically evaluated I mean that situations that tend to be bad for our prospects of passing on our genes to future generations tend to give us unpleasant experiences whilst those that are good for those prospects tend to give us relatively pleasant ones (for most people most of the time)). Every example of such perfect organisation is explained as a product of positive natural selection.. The organisation in our consciousness ought therefore to be explained the same way. Each small step toward that organization must have had a beneficial effect upon our ancestors' chances of passing on their genes to future generations.
Just think what that means. Since we have no neuroscientific reason to expect visual data to be encoded in retinal-image-like forms anywhere in the human brain, the generators of colour qualia (whatever they are physically) must have been organised through natural selection to produce the colour qualia in these forms. This seems to me to imply that each point in our visual experience must be associated with a distinct output that the system we call our consciousness is generating. The effect of the different types of colour qualia that might appear there can then be understood as varying the probability of that output. For some reason it was beneficial for those colour-adjusted probabilities to vary across that space of potential outputs in a way that was more and more similar (even with colour constancy and the filled in blindspot, etc) to the patterns of light intensity variations across the retina. In my book THE BLIND MINDMAKER I have shown why such evolution would occur if we were the aspect of nature that selects the random outcomes of position measurements of a single quantum particle that the brain has adapted to introduce randomness into our attention-focussing process.
That is why my theory of Position Selecting Interactionism is likely to be the correct explanation. Only if a consciousness is positioning a physical effect at particular positions under the influence of its qualia are you ever going to explain how its colour qualia came to be organised into patterns resembling the patterns of particular wavebands of incident light interacting with the retina.
And if your theory can't explain that, no matter how much of Sutherland's maths you understand, you can't possibly have understood consciousness.
Best wishes,
Colin
If interested, my theory is detailed in my book
THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
Send from Huawei Y360
Hameroff, Stuart R - (hameroff)
Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
The notion that consciousness emerged from complex brain computation is belied by the increasing number of mainstream scientists and philosophers who
resort to panpsychism, not to mention Eastern philosophers and quantum consciousness enthusiast who all agree, in various ways, that qualia and feelings existed before life.
If so, feelings (e.g. due to Penrose OR events) in the primordial soup may have prompted the origin of life, and driven its evolution. Behavior is based on reward (feelings,
not gene survival), including not only hedonism, but altruism and spirituality.
And I dont agree that consciousness is necessarily complex. What's complex about a toothache?
cheers
Stuart Hameroff
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:25 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com; 'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.; online_sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Rudolph Tanzi, RE: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualia
Jack Sarfatti
Sent from my iPad
Dear Jack, Rudy and others,
Might I offer the alternative suggestion that anyone who does not understand the implications of DARWIN's theory doesn't understand consciousness.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/MMXP123MB087931E116D25C6AD3ACD0C2BADA0%40MMXP123MB0879.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.
JACK SARFATTI
On Jun 21, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Rudy Tanzi <rudy...@gmail.com> wrote:I agree that species-specific perception must serve and be driven by survival taking on properties of a self-organizing system. Comparing bacteria to humans, we know there is much more to perceive than than that of bacteria reacting to attractant and repellents. Likewise, we would have to say the same about ourselves if weconsider alternately evolved beings that we are not capable of perceiving.
In perception, our senses bring us feelings of reward or punishment that serve survival. Our memories of reward and punishment become desires and fears, respectively. When these fears and desires become obligatory for survival, they eventually become genetically programmed instincts via a process that is partly Darwinian and partly epigenetic. The intellectual brain then strategizes, recapitulates, and projects around our instincts and acquired fears and desires, the bases of all emotions, to create rational thought and imagination.
The heated debate arises when we consider the "true" nature of what is actually being perceived and processed by the brain in what we call consciousness.
Most argue it is input from a purely physical world that is evolving. Others say it is pure awareness becoming aware of itself in self-organizing systems such as humans or bacteria. Some argue the only output of awareness is information that further modifies awareness in the absence of a physical substrate.
The question is how can we do the experiments needed to address these possibilities using a scientific method.
Those tapping into the intuition afforded by deep meditation may argue why bother with the science at all.
The reply to that is intuition and meditation are entirely personal in terms of the answers they bring. But, science makes it universal for all of those who care to learn.
(My apologies to any on this list who do not wish to receive my emails)
JACK SARFATTI
On Jun 21, 2017, at 12:45 PM, Rudolph Tanzi <rudy...@gmail.com> wrote:Jack:Regarding the interchange below, if the "key nouns" are all defend as "mathematical objects", then how does a non-mathematician try to understand this without the terms I used or similar ones?Rudy
Most argue it is input from a purely physical world that is evolving. Others say it is pure awareness becoming aware of itself in self-organizing systems such as humans or bacteria. Some argue the only output of awareness is information that further modifies awareness in the absence of a physical substrate.Scientifically meaningless .Too vague, not testable. Your key nouns "input", "awareness" "information" are not properly defined in any Popper-falsifiable way. This is in contrast to PQM in which your key nouns are all defined in terms of mathematical objects that are part of the battle-tested action principle (Lagrangians etc) of theoretical physics that are empirically Popper falsifiable in principle.On Jun 21, 2017, at 3:31 PM, JACK SARFATTI <jsar...@aol.com> wrote:Most argue it is input from a purely physical world that is evolving. Others say it is pure awareness becoming aware of itself in self-organizing systems such as humans or bacteria. Some argue the only output of awareness is information that further modifies awareness in the absence of a physical substrate.Scientifically meaningless .Too vague, not testable. Your key nouns "input", "awareness" "information" are not properly defined in any Popper-falsifiable way. This is in contrast to PQM in which your key nouns are all defined in terms of mathematical objects that are part of the battle-tested action principle (Lagrangians etc) of theoretical physics that are empirically Popper falsifiable in principle.
Dr. Rudolph E. TanziJoseph. P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of NeurologyHarvard Medical SchoolVice-Chair, Neurology; Director, Genetics and Aging Research UnitMassachusetts General Hospital114 16th StreetCharlestown, MA, 02129My new TED talk:(Curing Alzheimer’s with Science and Song)My Music: https://www.numberonemusic.com/rudytanzi
Whit Blauvelt
One of the things to like about your perspective: It can be taken to imply
that feelings are primary, and computation a secondary effect of
consciousness; in contrast to orthodox claims that computation is primary,
and feelings a secondary effect.
I'm sure this is too simple to fly, but wonder if roughly speaking it's the
direction you want to go with this. You at least seem to be suggesting that
evolution didn't make sex pleasurable; instead pleasure made evolution
sexual.
Best,
Whit
Rudy Tanzi
(My apologies to any on this list who do not wish to receive my emails)
C. S. Morrison
Dear Stuart,
The complex thing about a tooth ache is the fact that it is felt to occur in a particular tooth. In fact it is felt to occur in a tooth that's damaged! Need I say more! That is an incredibly precise piece of qualia engineering. So how does the brain accomplish this feat? How can it match the searing pain with the feeling of that tooth or at least that location in the set of feelings we call our mouth? How does Orch OR solve that problem? My theory of Position Selecting Interactionism published in my book THE BLIND MINDMAKER does explain this fact. It tells us why damage should be represented in very intense unpleasant sensations, and it tells us why the system that underlies human consciousness in my theory (a single quantum particle confined in a structure that regularly measures its position) would evolve in a way that makes representations of damage feel like they are occurring in the correct part of the body.
Anyway, in my view consciousness has been around from day one. It is in my view the essence of a single particle. But the experiences of these consciousnesses are nothing like the highly organised consciousness that we constitute. They essentially consist of the infinite set of potential positions of the particle each of which is represented in qualia caused by other conscious particles whose intensity determines how likely the consciousness of the particle is to select that location according to the Born rule. It takes a vast amount of positive natural selection to produce the structures that make a single particle with this sort of experience feel like it is the whole organism in whose brain it resides and participates.
Best wishes,
Colin
C. S. Morrison - Author of THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation.
Whit Blauvelt
> That is the "hard problem" (David Chalmers) that I have solved. It is a simple
> physics problem. The proof will be in the pudding, i.e. conscious AI
> nano-electronic chips.
or doubt it of other mammals -- who I don't join with -- and considering
that there are others of us -- including me -- who think the Turing Test can
easily be passed by a conventional program of great enough complexity -- yet
no consciousnesss at all, what is the proof of the proof in this pudding?
Okay, if we start transporting our own consciousness into and back out from
such nano-electronics, that will be proof. And some singluarians claim we'll
soon do that. But short of that, what's a reliable experimental design to
spot true consciousness in an electronic chip?
Best,
Whit
Sungchul Ji
In my book just proofed [1], I suggested that there may be an irreducibly triadiic relation (ITR) among body, awareness and consciousness, just there is such relation among the three components of the Peircean sign, i.e., object, sign (also called representamen), and interpretant.
Body ------------> Awareness ----------> Consciousness
(Firstness) (Secondness) (Thirdness)
<Experience (E)>
<Subjective E>
<Objective E>
<Information (I)>
<Physical I>
<Mental I>
[Object] [Sign] [Interpretant]
| ^
| |
|____________________________________|
h
Figure 10.34. A possible distinction between 'Awareness' and
'Consciousness' within the context of the Peircean principle of ITR (Irreducible
Triadic Relation; Chapter 9). The
symbol, "A ---> B",
can be read as "A determines B", "B presupposes A", or
"B supervenes on A", etc. f = physical or physiological
process; g = mental process; h = information
flow resulting from historical and/or social selection processes. E = Energy; I = Information. Reproduced from Section 10.22 in [1].
The ITR diagram (also called the ITR template) can be read in two complementary ways -- synchornically and diachronically -- the concepts imported from linguistics.
Reading Figure 10.34 diachronically suggests that body emerges first and then awareness followed by consciousness, which may provide a possible answer to the question raised by Stuart.
In passing, it is interesting to note that the synchronic reading of Figure 10.34 would suggest that body, awareness, and consciousness are the different aspects of the same entity X that can be referred to as any one of the three elements of the triad, consciousness, awareness or body (due to the irreducibility), with equal validity, depending on the convenience of thought. In other words, the naming of X is arbitrary from the semiotic point of view.
Finally, one challenging question raised by Figure 10.34 is whether or not Body can be entities other than living organisms such as humans. For example, can Body be elementary particles ? In other words, can elementary particles be conscious ? The easier question to answer would be "Can ITR be applied to abiotic entities ?". The answer to this question is yes, in my opinion. I have reasonalbe evidence that ITR applies to all self-organizng chemical reactions such as the Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction (see Figure 9.8 in [1]). If someone can prove that ITR applies to elementary particles, that would validate the the prediction recently made by Josephson in [5]:
"Semiotics will eventually overtake quantum mechanics in the same way as quantum mechanics overtook classical physics."
For the convenience of future discussions, I took the liberty of referring to this statement as the Josephson conjecture [1, Statement (4.8)].
With all the best.
Sung
References:
[1] S. Ji (2017) The Cell Language Theory: Connecting Mind and Matter. World Scientific, New Jersey (in press).
[2] Ji, S. (2016). WAVE-PARTICLE DUALITY IN PHYSICS AND BIOMEDICAL SCIENCES. Symmetry: Science and Culture 27 (2): 99-127 (2016). http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/PDE_SymmetryFestival_2016.pdf
[3] Ji, S. (2015). Planckian distributions in molecular machines, living cells, and brains: The wave-particle duality in biomedical sciences. In: Proceedings of the International Conference on Biology and Biomedical Engineering, Vienna, March 15-17, 2015. Pp. 115-137. http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/PDE_Vienna_2015.pdf
[4]Ji, S. (2015). PLANCKIAN INFORMATION (IP): A NEW MEASURE OF ORDER IN ATOMS, ENZYMES, CELLS, BRAINS, HUMAN SOCIETIES, AND THE COSMOS. In: Unified Field Mechanics: Natural Science beyond the Veil of Spacetime (Amoroso, R., Rowlands, P., and Kauffman, L. eds.), World Scientific, New Jersey, 2015, pp. 579-589). http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/PDE_Vigier9.pdf
[5] Josephson, B. (2016). Biological Organization as the True Foundation of Reality. http://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/2277379.
Dear Stuart,
The complex thing about a tooth ache is the fact that it is felt to occur in a particular tooth. In fact it is felt to occur in a tooth that's damaged! Need I say more! That is an incredibly precise piece of qualia engineering. So how does the brain accomplish this feat? How can it match the searing pain with the feeling of that tooth or at least that location in the set of feelings we call our mouth? How does Orch OR solve that problem? My theory of Position Selecting Interactionism published in my book THE BLIND MINDMAKER does explain this fact. It tells us why damage should be represented in very intense unpleasant sensations, and it tells us why the system that underlies human consciousness in my theory (a single quantum particle confined in a structure that regularly measures its position) would evolve in a way that makes representations of damage feel like they are occurring in the correct part of the body.
Anyway, in my view consciousness has been around from day one. It is in my view the essence of a single particle. But the experiences of these consciousnesses are nothing like the highly organised consciousness that we constitute. They essentially consist of the infinite set of potential positions of the particle each of which is represented in qualia caused by other conscious particles whose intensity determines how likely the consciousness of the particle is to select that location according to the Born rule. It takes a vast amount of positive natural selection to produce the structures that make a single particle with this sort of experience feel like it is the whole organism in whose brain it resides and participates.
Best wishes,
Colin
C. S. Morrison - Author of THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation.
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
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On 21 Jun 2017 18:43, "Hameroff, Stuart R - (hameroff)" <hame...@email.arizona.edu> wrote:
Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
The notion that consciousness emerged from complex brain computation is belied by the increasing number of mainstream scientists and philosophers who
resort to panpsychism, not to mention Eastern philosophers and quantum consciousness enthusiast who all agree, in various ways, that qualia and feelings existed before life.
If so, feelings (e.g. due to Penrose OR events) in the primordial soup may have prompted the origin of life, and driven its evolution. Behavior is based on reward (feelings,
not gene survival), including not only hedonism, but altruism and spirituality.
And I dont agree that consciousness is necessarily complex. What's complex about a toothache?
cheers
Stuart Hameroff
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:25 AM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com; 'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.; online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Rudolph Tanzi, RE: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualia
Dear Jack, Rudy and others,
Might I offer the alternative suggestion that anyone who does not understand the implications of DARWIN's theory doesn't understand consciousness. We don't know what consciousness is. But we do know that it is a highly complex instance of something that appears perfectly organised for some function - the encoding of sensory information (real or imagined) in a genetically evaluated way ( where by genetically evaluated I mean that situations that tend to be bad for our prospects of passing on our genes to future generations tend to give us unpleasant experiences whilst those that are good for those prospects tend to give us relatively pleasant ones (for most people most of the time)). Every example of such perfect organisation is explained as a product of positive natural selection.. The organisation in our consciousness ought therefore to be explained the same way. Each small step toward that organization must have had a beneficial effect upon our ancestors' chances of passing on their genes to future generations.
Just think what that means. Since we have no neuroscientific reason to expect visual data to be encoded in retinal-image-like forms anywhere in the human brain, the generators of colour qualia (whatever they are physically) must have been organised through natural selection to produce the colour qualia in these forms. This seems to me to imply that each point in our visual experience must be associated with a distinct output that the system we call our consciousness is generating. The effect of the different types of colour qualia that might appear there can then be understood as varying the probability of that output. For some reason it was beneficial for those colour-adjusted probabilities to vary across that space of potential outputs in a way that was more and more similar (even with colour constancy and the filled in blindspot, etc) to the patterns of light intensity variations across the retina. In my book THE BLIND MINDMAKER I have shown why such evolution would occur if we were the aspect of nature that selects the random outcomes of position measurements of a single quantum particle that the brain has adapted to introduce randomness into our attention-focussing process.
That is why my theory of Position Selecting Interactionism is likely to be the correct explanation. Only if a consciousness is positioning a physical effect at particular positions under the influence of its qualia are you ever going to explain how its colour qualia came to be organised into patterns resembling the patterns of particular wavebands of incident light interacting with the retina.
And if your theory can't explain that, no matter how much of Sutherland's maths you understand, you can't possibly have understood consciousness.
Best wishes,
ColinIf interested, my theory is detailed in my book
THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
Send from Huawei Y360
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Associate Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy
Rutgers University
Piscataway, N.J. 08855
609-240-4833
www.conformon.net
Serge Patlavskiy
From: "Hameroff, Stuart R - (hameroff)" <hame...@email.arizona.edu>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:43 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
Stephen Jarosek
"The desire to be is the source of complexity."
Note that the desire to be has to assume a toolkit of emotions, because once an entity desires to be, they have the basis for all other emotions... like desiring food, pursuing comfort, fearing loss and avoiding pain. And this, in turn, brings us to the mind-body problem, and how an entity interfaces with experience.
Thus, how an entity defines the things that matter depends on how its body is predisposed to interacting with it environment. A leopard with four paws is predisposed to interacting with its environment very differently to a hunter with a spear. Subsequently, their neuroplastic brains will be wired very differently. Yet the one thing that both the leopard and the hunter have in common is the desire to be.
sj
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Ganesh L S
It's a most absorbing discussion that has raised the following questions and points in my mind, and i hope members of this group will please help provide some answers.
1. To what extent do we share identical or similar definitions of "consciousness" and "mind"? Hopefully, we agree (almost?) completely about the "brain" as a physical object.
2. In any case, all of us clearly and unambiguously observe that there are conditions, laws and rules (CLaR) that operate in our Universe, and should be so in others (multiverses) too. Even the absence of CLaR (anywhere) will automatically and trivially dictate a primal or root CLaR specifying so. On the contrary, is "nothingness" feasible at all anywhere, anytime? These CLaR inter alia relate to all aspects of our lives, physical, mental and beyond, if any. So, what is the primal or root source of these CLaR?
3. There have been some points earlier about primal or root randomness. However, as mentioned above, even this should arise from the corresponding CLaR. All models and theories dealing with QM and its interpretations, however fine they may be, must eventually
meet head on with CLaR and their eventual single source.
4. Let's note that CLaR are not physical in themselves, but do have a strong presence by manifesting in and through our physical Universe. Clearly, the CLaR must precede any physical manifestation.
LSG.
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 9:14 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
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Bruno Marchal
Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
The notion that consciousness emerged from complex brain computation is belied by the increasing number of mainstream scientists and philosophers who
resort to panpsychism, not to mention Eastern philosophers and quantum consciousness enthusiast who all agree, in various ways, that qualia and feelings existed before life.
If so, feelings (e.g. due to Penrose OR events) in the primordial soup may have prompted the origin of life, and driven its evolution. Behavior is based on reward (feelings,not gene survival), including not only hedonism, but altruism and spirituality.
And I dont agree that consciousness is necessarily complex. What's complex about a toothache?
cheers
Stuart Hameroff
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Stephen Jarosek
Excellent points. Hence my own interest in the semiotics of CS Peirce, where the potential for this kind of thinking is ripe for further development. Firstness, secondness and thirdness, perhaps understood in the context of motivation, association and habituation respectively, are relevant to any entity that makes choices from an ecosystem. This opens up the narrative to explore concepts like nothingness, void, space, etc. At its most primal, for example… what are the laws that “motivate” a virtual particle of the quantum void to become a matter particle that persists across time?
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Asingh2384
Bruno Marchal
On 21 Jun 2017, at 20:44, Whit Blauvelt wrote to Prof. Hameroff:
>
>
> One of the things to like about your perspective: It can be taken to
> imply
> that feelings are primary, and computation a secondary effect of
> consciousness; in contrast to orthodox claims that computation is
> primary,
> and feelings a secondary effect.
>
> I'm sure this is too simple to fly, but wonder if roughly speaking
> it's the
> direction you want to go with this. You at least seem to be
> suggesting that
> evolution didn't make sex pleasurable; instead pleasure made evolution
> sexual.
digestion! At a time we were in between the proto-procaryotes and the
eucaryotes!
I doubt that computation are a product on consciousness, unless
"consciousness" is the cosmic mind who created the numbers.
Kronecker's God.
It is not well known, yet a tiny part of the arithmetical reality does
encodes and emulate all computations. That is not part of any
hypothesis, but is proved in all good textbook on logic and
computability.
Feeling are real, and they have relative role, like consciousness can
accelerate anticipation, but to make them primary seems to me using
the difficult to explain the simple, as I mentioned recently. Feeling
involves consciousness. Computation involves only addition and
multiplication, (or abstraction and application, or ...).
Now, there is no doubt that feeling seems and even are primary from
the first person view, and are (atemporal) attribute of a sort of
Universal Person (canonically associated to universal number as I have
described some weeks ago).
Best,
Bruno
> .
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
Bruno Marchal
It's a most absorbing discussion that has raised the following questions and points in my mind, and i hope members of this group will please help provide some answers.1. To what extent do we share identical or similar definitions of "consciousness" and "mind"? Hopefully, we agree (almost?) completely about the "brain" as a physical object.
2. In any case, all of us clearly and unambiguously observe that there are conditions, laws and rules (CLaR) that operate in our Universe,
and should be so in others (multiverses) too.
Even the absence of CLaR (anywhere) will automatically and trivially dictate a primal or root CLaR specifying so. On the contrary, is "nothingness" feasible at all anywhere, anytime?
These CLaR inter alia relate to all aspects of our lives, physical, mental and beyond, if any. So, what is the primal or root source of these CLaR?
3. There have been some points earlier about primal or root randomness. However, as mentioned above, even this should arise from the corresponding CLaR. All models and theories dealing with QM and its interpretations, however fine they may be, must eventually meet head on with CLaR and their eventual single source.
4. Let's note that CLaR are not physical in themselves,
but do have a strong presence by manifesting in and through our physical Universe. Clearly, the CLaR must precede any physical manifestation.
Best wishes,
LSG.--------------------------------------------------------
To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/2024491950.144856.1498103081045%40mail.yahoo.com.
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Srinivasa Rao Kankipati
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Dear All:Human neuro-biological consciousness (qualia) is a subset of and powered by the eternal universal consciousness represented by the implicate order or laws of the universe.Since, there is no unique universal clock or time, "what came first?" is an ill-posed question. Human brain experienced or qualia clock is local with a relative time that has NO relevance to the eternal universal consciousness.Best Regards
Avtar Singh
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 22, 2017 3:46 am
Hi Stuart,
cheersStuart Hameroff
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:25 AM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com; 'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.;online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Rudolph Tanzi, RE: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualia
Dear Jack, Rudy and others,Might I offer the alternative suggestion that anyone who does not understand the implications of DARWIN's theory doesn't understand consciousness. We don't know what consciousness is. But we do know that it is a highly complex instance of something that appears perfectly organised for some function - the encoding of sensory information (real or imagined) in a genetically evaluated way ( where by genetically evaluated I mean that situations that tend to be bad for our prospects of passing on our genes to future generations tend to give us unpleasant experiences whilst those that are good for those prospects tend to give us relatively pleasant ones (for most people most of the time)). Every example of such perfect organisation is explained as a product of positive natural selection.. The organisation in our consciousness ought therefore to be explained the same way. Each small step toward that organization must have had a beneficial effect upon our ancestors' chances of passing on their genes to future generations.Just think what that means. Since we have no neuroscientific reason to expect visual data to be encoded in retinal-image-like forms anywhere in the human brain, the generators of colour qualia (whatever they are physically) must have been organised through natural selection to produce the colour qualia in these forms. This seems to me to imply that each point in our visual experience must be associated with a distinct output that the system we call our consciousness is generating. The effect of the different types of colour qualia that might appear there can then be understood as varying the probability of that output. For some reason it was beneficial for those colour-adjusted probabilities to vary across that space of potential outputs in a way that was more and more similar (even with colour constancy and the filled in blindspot, etc) to the patterns of light intensity variations across the retina. In my book THE BLIND MINDMAKER I have shown why such evolution would occur if we were the aspect of nature that selects the random outcomes of position measurements of a single quantum particle that the brain has adapted to introduce randomness into our attention-focussing process.That is why my theory of Position Selecting Interactionism is likely to be the correct explanation. Only if a consciousness is positioning a physical effect at particular positions under the influence of its qualia are you ever going to explain how its colour qualia came to be organised into patterns resembling the patterns of particular wavebands of incident light interacting with the retina.And if your theory can't explain that, no matter how much of Sutherland's maths you understand, you can't possibly have understood consciousness.Best wishes,
ColinIf interested, my theory is detailed in my bookTHE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or MisrepresentationSend from Huawei Y360
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M. R. N. Murthy
Dear Ganesh,
According to biological science, consciousness is the brainchild(!)
of brain. According to Vedanta, both (Purusha, Prakriti; Jada, Chaitanya;
Shiva, Shakti) are manifestations of Branhman and have always existed even
if not manifested.
Regards,
Murthy
>
> It's a most absorbing discussion that has raised the following questions and
> points in my mind, and i hope members of this group will please help provide
> some answers.
>
>
>
> 1. To what extent do we share identical or similar definitions of
> completely about the "brain" as a physical object.
>
>
> 2. In any case, all of us clearly and unambiguously observe that there are
> conditions, laws and rules (CLaR) that operate in our Universe, and should be so
> in others (multiverses) too. Even the absence of CLaR (anywhere) will
> automatically and trivially dictate a primal or root CLaR specifying so. On
> beyond, if any. So, what is the primal or root source of these CLaR?
>
>
> 3. There have been some points earlier about primal or root randomness.
> However, as mentioned above, even this should arise from the corresponding CLaR.
> All models and theories dealing with QM and its interpretations, however fine
> they may be, must eventually meet head on with CLaR and their eventual single
> source.
>
>
>
> 4. Let's note that CLaR are not physical in themselves, but do have a strong
> presence by manifesting in and through our physical Universe. Clearly, the CLaR
> must precede any physical manifestation.
>
> Best wishes,
> LSG.
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 9:14 AM
> To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain? -
> Stuart Hameroff on June 21, 2017 wrote: >The notion that consciousness
> emerged from complex brain >computation is belied by the increasing number of
> mainstream >scientists and philosophers who resort to panpsychism, not to
> >mention Eastern philosophers and quantum consciousness >enthusiast who all
> agree, in various ways, that qualia and feelings > existed before life. .
> philosophers". The case is that comprehensive paradigm in the field of
> consciousness studies is not established yet. By "mainstream
> scientists" in this field we must understand those who do have their own
> transformed into subjective events (like appearance of new elements of
> experience, new elements of knowledge, new information, and suchlike). .
> increasing number of those who do not understand how consciousness works will
> never result in the effective version of the theory which explains how
> consciousness works. I have mentioned this fact yet in my reply to David
> Chalmers on Psyche-D forum on Oct 26, 2007. In his post on Oct 25, 2007 David
> the last decade -- a stagnation concerning new ideas continues. The mainstream
> cognitive environment in the field of consciousness studies must be
> constituted by the thinkers who do have their versions of the theory of
> consciousness, even if there will be just a few of them. . [Stuart Hameroff]
> wrote: >Which came first, consciousness or the brain? . [S.P.] As I hold, the
> possession of consciousness is indispensable for life. I use the term
> transforming them into elements of experience. I mean that to have an adequate
> model of the outer world (due to activity of consciousness) is as important for
> the organism as to consume food and to take part in energetic interactions.
> normal functioning of its exemplar of consciousness. So, possession of such a
> body organ as a brain is secondary in reference to possessing the exemplar of
> consciousness. . [Stuart Hameroff] wrote: > And I dont agree that consciousness
> is necessarily complex. . [S.P.] The adult and serious thinker must understand
> that this problem is extremely complex, and we can hardly expect to get easy
> solutions to it. Many those, who, as thinkers, are not still adult and serious,
> start directly from trying to explain consciousness. They naively expect that
> since they can explain how the wall-clock works (they have all the necessary
> methods and models to explain this), they can explain how consciousness works
> as well. . But my solution is much more complex. This is because that, before
> to start talking about consciousness, I think it is necessary first to
> construct a special meta-theory (which would make room for the activity of
> informational factor in general and consciousness in particular) together with
> several important concomitant applied theories. . A good analogy is as
> follows. Somebody may start from copying files to the flash drive -- this
> corresponds to start talking about consciousness immediately, or having used
> the traditional methods and models, like those we use in Physics. But, in
> fact, we have first to consider some operation system to make our computer to
> work -- this corresponds to constructing a special meta-theory. Then we have to
> or NTFS -- this corresponds to constructing the concomitant applied theories.
> And only then we may start copying files to the flash drive -- this corresponds
> to start constructing the required applied theory of consciousness. . The
> effective theory of consciousness cannot be constructed within the limits of
> the existing meta-theory called the Modern Materialistic (Physical) Picture of
> the World. By analogy, the MS Word program cannot be launched under DOS
> operation system -- it requires a special operation system, like MSWindows or
> iOS. So, to construct a special meta-theory and a set of concomitant applied
> theories is an objective necessity before we can start explaining how
> consciousness produces experience. In other words, the problem of
> consciousness is objectively irreducibly complex. . [Stuart Hameroff] wrote:
> >What's complex about a toothache? . [S.P.] To be honest, I have no interest in
> spending time on playing with children in a sandbox. I patiently await for an
> adult and serious discussion of the problem. . With respect, Serge Patlavskiy
>
> To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com"
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:43 PM
> Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
>
> Which came first, consciousness or the brain? The notion that
> consciousness emerged from complex brain computation is belied by the
> increasing number of mainstream scientists and philosophers who resort to
> panpsychism, not to mention Eastern philosophers and quantum consciousness
> enthusiast who all agree, in various ways, that qualia and feelings existed
> before life. If so, feelings (e.g. due to Penrose OR events) in the
> primordial soup may have prompted the origin of life, and driven its
> evolution. Behavior is based on reward (feelings, not gene survival),
> including not only hedonism, but altruism and spirituality. And I dont
> agree that consciousness is necessarily complex. What's complex about a
> toothache? cheers Stuart Hameroff
>
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> Fifth International Conference
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>
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Prof. M.R.N. Murthy
Molecular Biophysics Unit
Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore 560 012
INDIA
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Avatar,
You have a point that there is no unique universal time. However in our reference frame (actually more precisely co-moving frame with the expansion), we can very well ask this question whether (universal) consciousness came before or after human bodies came on the scene. This is just like our saying that big bang happened 13.8 B years ago in the co-moving frame.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
From: 'Asingh2384' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.
[mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 11:17 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
Dear All:
Asingh2384
.
From: Srinivasa Rao Kankipati <ksra...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 22, 2017 9:44 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
Dear All:Human neuro-biological consciousness (qualia) is a subset of and powered by the eternal universal consciousness represented by the implicate order or laws of the universe.Since, there is no unique universal clock or time, "what came first?" is an ill-posed question. Human brain experienced or qualia clock is local with a relative time that has NO relevance to the eternal universal consciousness.Best Regards
Avtar Singh
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 22, 2017 3:46 am
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
Hi Stuart,
On 21 Jun 2017, at 19:01, Hameroff, Stuart R - (hameroff) wrote:
Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
I can explain that IF the brain/body (or whatever is assumed for "my" consciousness to occur) is Church-Turing emulable, THEN consciousness came first (but not necessarily human consciousness).
It is a bit like:
Number-addition-multiplication ==>Number-3p-self-reference ==>Number-1p-self-reference ==>Consciousness ==>Number's relative Dreams ==>Coherent multi-consistent dreams ==>Physical laws ==>Humans ==>Human consciousness.
The notion that consciousness emerged from complex brain computation is belied by the increasing number of mainstream scientists and philosophers who
The problem with this view is that it needs to ascribe to material object a magical ability to select a computation among an infinity which are already realized in elementary arithmetic (and arithmetic is usually postulated by all scientists).
resort to panpsychism, not to mention Eastern philosophers and quantum consciousness enthusiast who all agree, in various ways, that qualia and feelings existed before life.
If we assume Mechanism (in cognitive science, not in physics), that is, if we assume the brain to be Turing emulable (be it quantum or not), then it is simple to show that elementary arithmetical truth realize already all computations. In that sense, qualia and feelings existed "before life", in fact even before time, and space, which we can recover as stable coherent sheaves of number dreams. A dream is the 1p view that we can associate to any computation rich enough to sustain machine or number-self-reference.
If so, feelings (e.g. due to Penrose OR events) in the primordial soup may have prompted the origin of life, and driven its evolution. Behavior is based on reward (feelings,not gene survival), including not only hedonism, but altruism and spirituality.
OK.
And I dont agree that consciousness is necessarily complex. What's complex about a toothache?
cheersStuart Hameroff
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Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
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Klee Irwin
Actually many well established peer review level cosmological models DO have a universal time in addition to local particle clock times. Our program, emergence theory, at QGR is one such model.
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JACK SARFATTI
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Soam Prakash
Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
The notion that consciousness emerged from complex brain computation is belied by the increasing number of mainstream scientists and philosophers who
resort to panpsychism, not to mention Eastern philosophers and quantum consciousness enthusiast who all agree, in various ways, that qualia and feelings existed before life.
If so, feelings (e.g. due to Penrose OR events) in the primordial soup may have prompted the origin of life, and driven its evolution. Behavior is based on reward (feelings,
not gene survival), including not only hedonism, but altruism and spirituality.
And I dont agree that consciousness is necessarily complex. What's complex about a toothache?
cheers
Stuart Hameroff
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:25 AM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com; 'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.; online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Rudolph Tanzi, RE: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualia
Dear Jack, Rudy and others,
Might I offer the alternative suggestion that anyone who does not understand the implications of DARWIN's theory doesn't understand consciousness. We don't know what consciousness is. But we do know that it is a highly complex instance of something that appears perfectly organised for some function - the encoding of sensory information (real or imagined) in a genetically evaluated way ( where by genetically evaluated I mean that situations that tend to be bad for our prospects of passing on our genes to future generations tend to give us unpleasant experiences whilst those that are good for those prospects tend to give us relatively pleasant ones (for most people most of the time)). Every example of such perfect organisation is explained as a product of positive natural selection.. The organisation in our consciousness ought therefore to be explained the same way. Each small step toward that organization must have had a beneficial effect upon our ancestors' chances of passing on their genes to future generations.
Just think what that means. Since we have no neuroscientific reason to expect visual data to be encoded in retinal-image-like forms anywhere in the human brain, the generators of colour qualia (whatever they are physically) must have been organised through natural selection to produce the colour qualia in these forms. This seems to me to imply that each point in our visual experience must be associated with a distinct output that the system we call our consciousness is generating. The effect of the different types of colour qualia that might appear there can then be understood as varying the probability of that output. For some reason it was beneficial for those colour-adjusted probabilities to vary across that space of potential outputs in a way that was more and more similar (even with colour constancy and the filled in blindspot, etc) to the patterns of light intensity variations across the retina. In my book THE BLIND MINDMAKER I have shown why such evolution would occur if we were the aspect of nature that selects the random outcomes of position measurements of a single quantum particle that the brain has adapted to introduce randomness into our attention-focussing process.
That is why my theory of Position Selecting Interactionism is likely to be the correct explanation. Only if a consciousness is positioning a physical effect at particular positions under the influence of its qualia are you ever going to explain how its colour qualia came to be organised into patterns resembling the patterns of particular wavebands of incident light interacting with the retina.
And if your theory can't explain that, no matter how much of Sutherland's maths you understand, you can't possibly have understood consciousness.
Best wishes,
ColinIf interested, my theory is detailed in my book
THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
Send from Huawei Y360
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Fifth International Conference
Science and Scientist - 2017
August 18—19, 2017
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Fifth International Conference
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Fifth International Conference
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Fifth International Conference
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Sungchul Ji
(Firstness) (Secondness) (Thirdness)
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Srikanth R.
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Joseph McCard
Serge Patlavskiy
From: Rudy Tanzi <rudy...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
Bruno Marchal
Dear All:Human neuro-biological consciousness (qualia) is a subset of and powered by the eternal universal consciousness represented by the implicate order or laws of the universe.Since, there is no unique universal clock or time, "what came first?" is an ill-posed question.
Human brain experienced or qualia clock is local with a relative time that has NO relevance to the eternal universal consciousness.
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Srikanth R.
SRK,If consciousness lacks awareness ( Chetna), how will it be consciousness since awareness ( chetna) is an integral intrinsic nature of the consciousness, I think as per Vedanta, consciousness in its pure form has infinite awareness and powers. The brain limits infinite awareness and powers by localizing consciousness at the biological level.Vinod Sehgal
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--Dr. R. SrikanthAssistant ProfessorDept. of Theoretical SciencesPoornaprajna Institute of Scientific ResearchBangalore- 560 080, Karnataka, India.Mob: +91 9844593440
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Bruno Marchal
>Right. I agree that all the universal numbers can be implemented in arithmetics. |
But I can't conceive any universal numberwithout consciousness ( or conscious minds)
....and discrete ontology of matter
Because I believe in 2+2=4 and similar, which implies1) the existence of the universal number (in arithmetic),2) the existence of the computations made by those universal numbers, in arithmetic too!.The physical will be explained by a relative statistic. The first person experience involves the infinitely many computations going through below our substitution level (which exists by the digital mechanist assumption).
>Here I disagree with you. I propose that it is the universal numbers which emerge as a dream state from the eternal anduniversal consciousness.
Mukho Ak
Consciousness is simple, when we start from what is known to us as doctors.
Functions of consciousness could be easily understood from behaviour of unconscious patients. There is no volition (will), no feelings (emotion) and no cognition in unconscious patients. Cognition, emotion/feelings and volition are three textbook functions of consciousness.
When consciousness is 'out' of the loop in the systems brain, autonomous mind keeps on working as long as, biochemically, Ca++ ion channels are functional. The patient does not soil the bed. The patient retains his mind and sphincter control. Ca++ wave in astrocytes of brain keeps mind active within the brain. Information processing goes on. Whenever there is no ‘thinking’, no mind function, no information, but only signal processing, astrocytes are not needed at all as in peripheral ganglion, and even in complicated papillary reflex pathway.
Mind is sterile without consciousness. Therefore, if consciousness is not regained, mind cannot continue its autonomous activity for long. There are exceptions for all rules. Mind operation eventually ceases and there is no control of sphincters. The patient soils the bed.
When both consciousness and mind are out of loop from the systems brain, the self in the brain continues its work with the support of proton pump within the cells. Autonomous function of self, bereft of consciousness and mind can continue as long as supporting Na+/K+ pump continues.
With the failure of 'self' functioning within the systems brain, the patient develops endothelial leakage resulting in oedema, not manageable by diuretics, steroids or mannitol. Intracellular oedema of astrocytes and neuron makes ‘life’ impossible to continue its work within the brain. ‘Life’ eventually has to leave the systems body.
Consciousness, self, life, mind and information together constitute our cognitive organ what we call psyche.
From signal to 'will' and from the 'will' back to signal, from the neural firing to conscious behaviour and from conscious behaviour to appropriate signalling are layered hierarchically. There is no 'hard problem' in consciousness research. Hard problem is created by mind.
There are hierarchical operations of mind, self, life and consciousness in this ladder.
For details, you may like to read the paper.
The Ladder of Cognition: Abstract operation, Molecular Biology and Systems Science.
Ann Psychiatry Ment Health (2017), 5 (4): 1107, p. 1-15.
https://www.jscimedcentral.com/Psychiatry/psychiatry-5-1107.pdf
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Prof. & Head
Department of Laboratory Medicine
Po. Box. No. 4938
All India Institute of Medical Sciences
New Delhi 110 029
Fax: 91-11-26588641
Tel. 26594407(o), 09868397270 (m)
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Bruno Marchal
Vinod,
On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 9:35 PM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com
> wrote:
Bruno,
Vinod <<My only point behind sending my past two messages to you has
been to draw your attention to the fact that
i) The existence of anything is derived by virtue of ontology of
"anything"">>
BM <<Just in arithmetic, I would introduce different kinds of
"existence".
What exists most primitively, which really means that we assume this,
is the number zero.
Then, we assume a law of succession, all numbers have their own unique
successor.
So what exists; is zero, often denoted by 0, and the successor of
zero, s(0), and the successor of the successor of zero, s(s(0)), etc.
The addition laws and the multiplication laws are still not derivable,
so we assume them too:
for all x, x + 0 = x
for all x, for all y, x + s(y) = s(x + y)
for all x, x * 0 = 0
for all x, x*s(y) = x + (x*y)
But then we can *define* a prime number, by defining divisibility (x
divides y) = it exists z such that (x*z) = y.
(x is prime) is then defined by "if z divides x then z = s(0) or z =
x, and not(x = s(0))".
Similarly, we can define a universal number u, but by a more longer
definition.
Most humans agree with elementary arithmetic, so it is wonderful that
things as marvelous as prime numbers and universal numbers can be
proved to result on the elementary assumption above.
Especially that not only the universal numbers can be proved to exist,
(assuming Church-thesis/definition), but the existence of each of
their dreams can to.
>>
Vinod "No, above basics of arithmetics are not existing without any
ontology. These are not coming out
of "Nothing". "
BM: It seems that you assume a primary physical ontology. I do not.
Also, I don't believe that something can come from nothing, and that
is why I *assume* the numbers and the addition and multiplication laws.
I can prove that we cannot derive this from less than an universal
system. I could use combinators in place of numbers, but that is
Turing equivalent.
Vinod <<Since you have an ontology of some consciousness or conscious
mind,
that is why these 'existences" are coming out of your consciousness
or mind. Had you been
an inert rock, could these numbers or basics of arithmetics emerge
out and exist?
I tthink answer is obvious and clear No. >>
BM: I agree. I explain the illusion of rock from the numbers.
Vinod <<So numbers though devoid of any ontology in itself remain
dependent upon the ontology of the consciousness or conscious minds
for their "resting"
and emergence.>>
BM: Here I disagree. No human thought of numbers would exist, but the
numbers themselves would. Even if there were no physical universe at
all, the primes would still be existing. The concept of number is
easier to grasp than consciousness and matter.
Vinod <<Numbers derive their existence and meaning Only when some
consciousness or conscious
observer is in their vicinity to appreciate as to what is meant by
1+1=2?
Had there been only inert matter in the universe devoid of any
consciousness, neither there
was any place from which numbers could take birth nor there was anyone
to appreciate
as to what 1 and 1+1=2 stand for?>>
BM: Nobody would know that 1+1=2 , but that does not entail that 1+1=2
would not be true. Numbers does not depend on human. Only the human
understanding of the numbers depends on human.
ii) If there is no ontology of anything, we can safely and logically
infer that that thing has no existence.
I completely agree. That is why I put clearly my card on the table. I
assume the number 0, and its successor, and the successor of the
successor, etc.
Vinod <<But then how do you propose that numbers are fundamental
existing out of space/time
in the absence of any ontology?>>
BM: I do not understand. Once we *assume* the numbers, we do have an
ontology. The appearance of time and space will be explain in term of
number's dreams, which are provably executed through number relation
(that is not entirely obvious, but the idea are already in Gödel's
1931 paper).
iii) If anything has no ontology of its own for its existence, it
should rest in the ontology of "something" else.
Either it is the building of a new molecules, atoms exchanged,
electron sharing, etc. Keeping the same ontological level, or it is
dreamed, getting a phenomenological reality.
No numbers can't "rest' in the ontology of inert matter composed out
of molecules/atoms/
electrons or any inert physicality whether at the phenomenal level or
at noumenal level
below the phenomenology of the matter and physical energy.
There are 3 aspects of numbers which need to be completed
i) Some "resting" ontology
ii) Manifestation out or emergence from that ontology
iii) Some "thing" to appreciate and recognize a number as a number.
Vinod <<Inert matter is incapable of performing above 3 functions. For
example, a rock can't
appreciate and recognize a number 2. All these functions are
accomplished by consciousness
or conscious mind only.>>
BM: I agree. But there is no ontological rocks at all, nor time, nor
space. Those are only appearance in the number's dreams.
Vinod:
iv) Universal numbers have no ontology of their own, therefore, they
can't have the existence on their own.
In view of this universal numbers can't exist as MOST
FUNDAMENTAL out of space and time.
I tend to believe more that it exists a number x such that x + 2 = 3,
than in Schroedinger
or Dirac equation, or even in the moon.
I can conceive waking up in a world without a moon, or with two moons.
It is harder to
imagine I could conceive being wrong with 1 + 2 = 3.
Since when you wake up, the first very existence, you become aware of
is your own conscious
self. Moon, Sun and numbers come afterward. Moon and Sun don't come
out of your
consciousness. They are placed outside. Numbers are fundamentally
embedded in your
consciousness as some universal Law. Therefore, with the manifestation
of the consciousness,
Law of numbers retain its universality and comes first than Moon and
Sun,
I would even say that I feel to lie to myself when trying to doubt the
formula above, although
I do doubt them slightly more than the consciousness-here-and-now.
Yet the universal number can already explains that phenomenon
If you will doubt your consciousness here and there, who will feel to
lie and who will .doubt
the above formula?
BM: The point is that consciousness is not doubtable, yet "0=0" is
very slightly more doubtable. Who am I? A door through which truth
looks at itself.
v) However, if we assume that some eternal universal consciousness,
with its own ontology, existed out of space-time, then
we can make some room for numbers also
a) We can say that universal numbers existed in the universal
consciousness.
I think that the universal consciousness might be the consciousness of
the universal number(s). Before they differentiate
Cosmic, eternal and universal consciousness has some ontology of
itself but numbers per se
don't have any ontology. A non-ontological entity can't lead to an
ontological entity.
Vinod: Just like so many thoughts, epistemological tools emerge out
from the ontology of the
consciousness, similar numbers as some unique and universal
epistemological tool
emerge out of the universal consciousness.Presence or absence of
consciousness always
is relevant in the context of some entity having the ontology of
matter.
BM: OK. Here is where we disagree the most I guess. With mechanism, we
need only the numbers as primary, and all the rest belongs to the
phenomenology internal to the number relations (including the non
computable one).
Vinod: <<
For example, we say
that dog is having consciousness and a rock is not having
consciousness. But we never say
that thoughts are conscious since it is implied that they are
conscious since they are emerging
out directly from the consciousness. So we can't say "the
consciousness of thoughts or for
that purpose consciousness of numbers" All thoughts or numbers are
the encoded messages
from the consciousness, therefore, consciousness is implicit >>
BM: With computer science, which is embedded in arithmetic (thanks to
the digitalness) we explain the complex thought from the numbers'
relations, which are conceptually simpler.
Technically, it is a bit more difficult to explain, especially that
the explanation belongs to G* \ G.
It is where we have to stay silent, or present the deduction from the
mechanist hypothesis, as it needs to be understood only, never asserted.
Vinod: <<Yes, it is quite difficult to express in words, it has to be
felt and experienced. Yet, we don't have
any other means to express but to use words and language. That is
what have tried above
but not succeeded fully. >>
BM: Mathematical logic provides helping tools. And with mechanism, we
get a theology associated to the (universal) number. As it includes
physics, we can test it.
b) As the creation of the universe commenced with the manifestation
of matter/energy at the discrete levels,
I don't really believe in universe, time, space, or energy. I assume
only 0, s(0), s(s(0)), .
Vinod <<But had you not been having consciousness or conscious minds,
from where the above
assumption of 0, s(0) and s(s(0)) come out?. And who would have
appreciated and provided
recognition/existence to this assumption?>>
I think you confuse human's idea of numbers, and the numbers
themselves. I believe that the numbers exists independently of
consciousness and humans. Indeed, I explain how the number relations
explains the illusion of "humans and rocks". It is the relative
numbers who appreciates the recognition/existence of the numbers. The
arithmetical reality emulates, out of time and space (a bit like a
bloc universe) all computations.
Vinod: For establishing the existence of numbers and its arithmetics,
some consciousness should
establish, recognize and assert, yes these are numbers and arithmetic.
universal numbers also unfolded out from the womb of the universal
consciousness to account for the "discreteness"
of the universe.
BM: Why? Who will recognize that consciousness? I prefer to assume the
conceptually simple number, and explain the reality of cosmic
consciousness from the numbers, than using consciousness to explain
them. The point is that the explanation is testable (and tested in the
sense that the quantum logic is already explained).
The physical reality is somehow the border of the universal mind.
Plotinus would say that
matter is a creation of the souls, which can use it to return to the
One, but can also get
lost in it.
Vinod <<
Like Plotinus, there is one view in Advaita Vedanta also which states
that all
the matter is the creation of the consciousness which can return to
and get lost in ONE
( universal consciousness). But then numbers also can't get escape
from this process
'of returning and getting lost in than one.
Further, all the numbers will become redundant and lost the existence,
once discrete
ontology gets dissolved in that ONE or otherwise.
All numbers come into existence due to the INTERFACE between the
consciousness and
discrete ontology of matter. The way consciousness has an innate and
universal attribute of
awareness -- of self or/and environment, it has also an innate and
universal attribute
of "identification and manipulation" of the discreteness of matter.
When the above "innate and universal" attribute of "identification
and manipulation" of the
consciousness has an interface with discreteness of matter or any
other discrete thing,
numbers come into existence.
"Identification and manipulation attribute of consciousness" -----
Interface ---- Discreteness
of matter or any other thing = Numbers.
If anyone of the above will disappear, numbers will also lost their
existence.
In view of above, existence of some consciousness having its own
ontology & and
some discreteness of matter or any other thing having its own
ontology or from that ONE
( universal consciousness) are a priori for the numbers to manifest
>>
BM: I am not sure if that is consistent with the digital mechanist
hypothesis. You will need to assume actual infinities, and some magic
operating in the brain. Why not, but I think this is premature, given
that arithmetic plus mechanism do provide a testable (and tested)
account of both quanta and qualia.
You seem to make the assumption that there is a primary physical
universe. With mechanism, the universal consciousness is the
consciousness of the universal number relatively to the arithmetical
truth, and matter appearances emerges from some "dream statistics".
Consciousness is a sort of semantic fixed point, that can be shown
undoubtable by all universal numbers, and it produces the illusion of
matter and physical laws, with enough details so that we can compare
with nature and refute digital mechanism or not.
You seem to say: CONSCIOUSNESS ==> PHYSICS ==> HUMANS ==> NUMBERS
But Digital Mechanism entails:
NUMBERS ==> CONSCIOUSNESS ==> PHYSICS ==> HUMANS
Bruno
> vi) In case of localized consciousness also, we do observe that
>
> a) Numbers and computations exist in our mind or some computer/
> machine, in which our partial mind is transposed.
>
> b) We use numbers and computations for identifying and
> manipulation of the discreteness of our day to day worldly
> affairs whether directly or thru computer/AI/some machine.
>
> viii) I appreciate that as a mathematician, it may be difficult for
> you to subscribe to the above framework of numbers since,
> as you have also said, that you have to start with some
> assumption which may be easy to comprehend for self and others.
> But if you agree to the aforesaid framework from the logical
> point of view, will it be worthwhile to compromise with
> reality, truth, and logic for the sake of easiness?
>
>
> The problem is that the humans will not wait for an answer and
> accept the digital transplant, not for immortality,
> but for seeing the next soccer cup, or to see their grandchildren
> growing up.
>
> We can argue that "nature" already bet on mechanism, through the DNA
> coding machinery, and tat we are already immaterial, and living in
> arithmetic.
> We have just some difficulty to remember who we are.
>
> I agree to the above practical difficulties.
>
> The practical question will be "to you accept that job on Mars,
> where you are asked to use calssical teleportation (which assume a
> digitalozation level of the body)?
>
> Or just "do you accept that your daughter marry a man who did accept
> that job"?
>
> We don't need to understand the brain to bet on some level of
> substitution, and copy it at that level. Indeed, it is a theorem of
> machine's theology that they cannot know in any public way which
> machine they are, and they already know that their soul are not a
> machine.
>
> To accept the digital transplant will be a question of right, not of
> truth.
>
> Then, all what I say, is that if this is true, if such level exist,
> then the physical laws have a reason, as they become an emerging
> invariant of the universal number observation of what is below their
> substitution level. And that this can be tested (modulo some
> technical nuances which I don't want bore anyone, but I can give
> references).
>
> Vinod Sehgal
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
Bruno Marchal
Since interacting with you on numbers and arithmetic since the past 5-6 months, I have been constantly contemplating on the issue of the genesis, nature, and function of numbers.
I don't find that numbers have any fundamental or Godly status from which the entire ontology of the universe may appear like a dream state.
I find that cosmic consciousness is Most Fundamental entity which is self-contained.
The observed phenomenal reality of the physical universe comes out from some primordial physicality.
The primordial physicality either emerges out from the Cosmic Consciousness
or it is as fundamental as the cosmic consciousness except that it lacks any knowledge ( consciousness) and propulsion power for the creation of the universe.
This primordial physicality manifests into various layered structures in the universe with the lowermost structure being our physical universe.
In between the physical structure of the universe and the primordial physicality lies various subtle structures called Astral Realm and Causal Realm about which current physical sciences have almost NIL awareness and knowledge.
Now let me come to numbers since that was the main topic of the discussions.As the primordial physicality start unfolding into different layered structures in some sequential order, at one stage, "discreteness" starts manifesting in nature and discrete layers of the structures start appearing. When consciousness thru the agency of Mind interacts with the 'discreteness' of nature ( irrespective of the nature of the ontology), a perceptual mathematical thought process starts appearing in the Mind.
This mathematical perceptual ( it could be even cognitive) thought the process is unique, universal irrespective of the nature of the ontology, but definitely arising from the 'discreteness" of nature, invariant under time and persons.
it is from this unique and universal mathematical thought process arising in Mind that numbers take birth in our Minds. All the subsequent operations of the mathematics also arise as part of the mathematical thought process.
Discreteness in nature is associated with the description of nature in form of "unique distinct identities of Ones". For example, a mango, though in the phenomenal form, has a 'unique distinct identity of One:. But an emotion of love, hate has no such identity
So the condition for the manifestation of the discreteness in nature is that in that realm nature should be describable in terms of identities of the unique distinct Ones. Though discreteness in nature is not related to the type of the ontology it definitely contingent upon unique distinct identities of Ones.
When consciousness thru the agency of the Mind has an interface with discretenessof the Unique distinct Identities of Ones, either perceptually or even cognitively, this leads to a unique universal mathematical thought process in the Mind in which numbers 1,2,3 and so on appear as part of the mathematical thought process.
Now why 0, 1, 1+1, 1+1= in mathematics?You place any one unique distinct identity of Ones say 1 apple on the table.
On the table, there is one and only one apple.
when our consciousness will interact with this One apple thru Mind, a mathematical 1 will manifest in the mathematical thought process. Therefore, 1 of mathematics. Now I also place an apple on the table along with the apple as placed by you.
So we have one more apple on the table, therefore one more 1 of arithmetic in our thought process. Now suppose, consciousness interacts with both the apples. so on the table, it sees two apples ( neither 3 nor 1 nor zero), therefore an arithmetic of 1+1 appear in the mathematical thought process. But these two apples when seen separately are 1 and 1 apples and when seen jointly are 2 apples ( not more than 2 or less than 2), therefore, a mathematical relation of 1+1=2 appear in the mathematical thought process in the Mind.
Now suppose both the apples are removed away from the table, no apple remains on the table.
This leads to the manifestation of ZERO in the mathematical thought process.
But what about numbers and arithmetics when there were no sentient living beings possessing consciousness?
In the first place, there had been no period when the universal fundamental consciousness was not present.
Secondly, mathematical numbers and their relation appear as the unique mathematical thought process in the Minds. and the consciousness. The mind is not consciousness.
So in the absence of the sentient living beings, though discreteness of the unique distinct identities of Ones, Twos, Threes existed in some realm of nature, there was no mathematics of 1, 2, 3 or 1+1=2 due to the absence of the mathematical thought process.
Then why arithmetics appear to give birth to different ontologies as some dream states?
Arithmetic, in fact, does give birth to any ontology and they exist by virtue of their existence or as a result of the cause-eefect relation between different ontologies. Arithmetic is a unique and universal thought process in Mind due to the interface with "discreteness" of nature in form of unique discrete identities of Ones. So there is a relation of correspondence between "discreteness" as existing outside in nature and arithmetics as existing in Mind as the mathematical thought process. The external "discreteness" is universally related to all the ontologies, irrespective of the type, provided the ontology is describable in some Unique Distinct Identities of Ones. So when mathematics in the thought process describes something, it also describes the "discreteness of nature" ( since mathematics had manifested from discreteness) and since discreteness being universally linked to all the ontologies, provided nature in that realm is describable thru Unique Distinct Identities of Ones, therefore, it appears to give a universal description of different ontologies but ontologies neither appear to take birth from arithmetics as part of the dreams not it is that they have no real existence in the universe.
From the above analysis, one can infer that neither numbers have any existence outside space/time
nor they have any Godly status at part with God or cosmic consciousness.
Vinod SehgalOn Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:Dear Vinod,On 03 Jul 2017, at 11:57, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL wrote:
Bruno Marchal
Dear Bruno,Thanks for your elaborate response. Even if I may not be in complete agreement with your views but this helps to understand correctly your views as well as examine my views. My comments are given in blue font text.
Since interacting with you on numbers and arithmetic since the past 5-6 months, I have been constantly contemplating on the issue of the genesis, nature, and function of numbers.Nice!
OK
I don't find that numbers have any fundamental or Godly status from which the entire ontology of the universe may appear like a dream state.OK. Logically, this will entail that you have to say "no" to the doctor who would propose you an artificial digital brain, copying the elementary operation of your brain at any level of description.
I think there is some basic difference in saying No to a doctor proposing an artificial digital brain copying the elementary operation and denying the Godly and Fundamental status to numbers. Then currently saying "NO" to a doctor is a hypothetical issue.
You will need to postulate some actual infinity, which I prefer to do only at some meta-level, like mechanism will allow.
If 1, 2, 3 and zero have some existence, infinities should also have some existence but not within our normal cognitive domain. Advaita Vedanta speaks of the infinity of the Cosmic Consciousness and Saankhya philosophy speaks of the infinity of the primordial physicality. No wonder, in number system also, there may be the existence of the infinity corresponding to primordial physicality where it appears in the discrete nature
The reason for this is that, since Gödel, Kleene and other mathematical logicians, it is "well known" (by logicians) that a tiny part of the arithmetical reality (the natural numbers structured by the law of addition and multiplication) does emulate,
I think it should not be "emulation" but description" Emulation gives a connotation of the absence of any ontology but ontology as an appearance but description gives a connotation of the pre-existence of some ontology
in the precise sense given by Turing and Church and others independently, all the computations, and if we can survive through a physical, yet digital substitution,
Above is a hypothetical situation. First, "We" can't be fully digitalized.
Second, "We" can't be fully emulatable.
So there is no question of our survival thru any physical and digital substitution. Our "I-ness" or "we-ness" of each individual of is unique, non-digitizable, non-emulatable by any digital or physical mechanism. All these are fantasies.
we can no more be aware of any difference between a physical reality and an arithmetical reality (emulating us at, or below, our substitution level.
The question of the difference or not difference will arise only if we could really be substitutable by any physical or digital mechanism
I find that cosmic consciousness is Most Fundamental entity which is self-contained.
The same for me. But "cosmic" and "consciousness" are two very complicate notion, even if we have direct 1p notion of it, which are typically ineffable and beyond words.Agreed. But they are non-cognitive notions since both are infinite and "infiniteness" does not fall within our cognitive domain
So I prefer to start on simple thing we can agree on, and simple but reasonable principle, and see where we are lead, in particular, see if it is contradicted by the visible reality, and if it contradicts our personal acquaintance with that thing/person without name.No, it is not as simple and reasonable. you start with Numbers being most fundamental existing out of space/time particularly when numbers per se lack any ontology.
It is quite difficult ( almost impossible) to comprehend this level of fundamentality of the universe which does not entail any real ontology to the universe.
In the notion of the cosmic consciousness, at least, it has its own ontology from which all the ontologies manifest in the view of Advaita Vedanta.
The observed phenomenal reality of the physical universe comes out from some primordial physicality.Hmm...So, in the Vedânta, you are closer to Ramanuja than Sankara ?
Shankara believed in the fundamentality of the Cosmic Consciousness and nothing else than the Cosmic consciousness. But either way, he did not deny the primordial physicality. He agreed to the existence of the primordial physicality, in form of MAYA, and as derivable from the consciousness.
In Saankhya's system of philosophy, there is the primordial physicality in form of the Moola and as fundamental in Prakriti but it is as fundamental as Cosmic Consciousness and called Purusha but both being entirely different in nature. In view of this, there is the provision of some primordial physicality in both systems -- as Moola Prakriti in Saankhya with as fundamental as Purusha and as MAYA as derivable from cosmic consciousness
I will not tell you my personal opinion, which is really that I inquire, and have no definite view. What I can explain and justify rationally is that Digital Mechanism is incompatible with a primordial physicality.
But why it is incompatible?
If there is the pre-existence of some primordial physicality, what makes digital mechanism invalid if you conform to my notion of numbers that numbers manifest in our mathematical thought system when the interface between consciousness thru our Mind take place with the discreteness in nature.
Of course, you will be required.to forego pan-Godly staus to Numbers that they existed outside space/time at the most fundamental status but perplexingly without any ontology of their own
With digital mechanism, the physical reality is the product of a deeper, invisible, reality, which will be the arithmetical reality "seen from inside", in some 1p way enforced to the machine by incompleteness.
The above notion rests on the assumption that i) there is no real existence of the physicality
ii) Numbers existed outside space/time as the most fundamental but without any ontology of their own.
I want to reiterate that both the above assumptions are illogical since this will entail the start of the universe from NIL ontology meaning non-existence of anything.
Numbers will also be engulfed in this non-existence of anything.
The primordial physicality either emerges out from the Cosmic ConsciousnessAh?OK then.I interpreted "primordial" as meaning that it cannot emerge from some other reality.So, up to here, you are again consistent with mechanism.
No by primordial, I meant the ultimate state of the physicality from which all the matter and energy of our observable universe emerges out. This ultimate ultimate state may further emerge out from Cosmic Consciousness ( Brahma) of Shankara in form of Maya.
No this will not be consistent with digital mechanism since Cosmic consciousness has its intrinsic ontology but numbers lack any ontology.
or it is as fundamental as the cosmic consciousness except that it lacks any knowledge ( consciousness) and propulsion power for the creation of the universe.Hmm... That would lead to dualism. Like, according to somebooks, Madhva. The Vedânta is rich, but there are few chance I follow a dualist explanation.
Yes, this is the dualism of Saankhya of Kaplia Muni. But what are reasons for you not to follow dualism?
This primordial physicality manifests into various layered structures in the universe with the lowermost structure being our physical universe.Again, this is consistent with mechanism,
No this not consistent with digital mechanism since in digital mechanism, there is no place for the real ontology of the physicality either at the primordial stage or at the intermediate layered structures. But what I have been speaking is for the real ontological status of the primordial physicality which manifests into the real ontological layered structures and NOT AS some appearances in the digital mechanism,
but there, we can see how, and why, the primordial physicality appears, and there are indeed layers, and get very big (multi-multiverse, deep computations, linearity and symmetries at the bottom, and *some* continuum.
In the state of Samaadhi, these intermediate layered structures can be viewed and known as Astral and the Causal Worlds with each world having a no of sub-sections and elements. This will be a too different subject to elaborate on this here.
Current Physics being unaware of the ontological reality of these intermediate layered structures speculates on these being some "parallel" realities and want to know thru some deep computations involving issues of linear or non-linear, symmetries and continuum. But Current science is unable to state anything with certainty unless it can "fix" these structures thro some empirical experimentation.
Likelihood of any empirical experimentation succeeding in fixing these intermediate layered structures does no seem quite high to me as our physical world and the Astral/causal world have a set of Laws, space and time. Nevertheless, the existence of these intermediate layered structural realities as the Astral and Causal world is verifiable thru the 1pp methodology of Samaadhi.
A machine is 3p duplicable, and no universal machine can predict a result of self-localization in a self)duplicating experience.
Yes, I agree that no machine can't predict a result for the self-localization duplicate experiences.in fact, all the experiences can't be digitalized and emulatable and transposed in a 3pp machine
We belong to an infinity of computations, and below our substitution level, the sum are infinite, but, well, since Ramanujan, we know that 1+2+3+4+5+6+... = -1/12. (!). It means physics comes from a sort perpetual self-normalization. In fact, the modal logic of the 1p justifies the use of a quantum logic.
We can view our "we-ness" or "I-ness" from two perspectives and both are right.We are a complex bundle of very large no of experiences/thoughts which have manifested since the time of our birth. These experiences/thoughts constitute the epistemic aspect of our "I-ness" which is variable. As Bruno, your epistemic "I-ness" rests upon these large no of experiences. These experiences are ver very large BUT NOT INFINITE since time span since you have been accumulating these experiences is NOT INFINITE.
This epistemic "I" is not due to the result of infinity of the computations
but it has its own ontological reality as grounded in the ontological reality of the physicality
since all the experiences arise in Mind and Mind is a part of the physicality
though at the intermediate layered structure of the Astral Body, as indicated in the aforesaid. Some part of this epistemic "I-ness" is digitizable and emulatable in a 3pp machine thru a LARGE No of computation BUT NOT INFINITE COMPUTATIONS.Apart from our epistemic "I-ness" we have our ontic "I-ness" which is grounded in the cosmic consciousness. Our epistemic "I-ness" survives till we have our ontic "I-ness". None of the part of our Ontic "I-ness" is digitizable, emulatable and transposable in a 3pp machine
In between the physical structure of the universe and the primordial physicality lies various subtle structures called Astral Realm and Causal Realm about which current physical sciences have almost NIL awareness and knowledge.That can make sense with mechanism. The physical science focuses on the visible. The theological science, like mathematics, focuses on the invisible.You can distinguish three great part of the invisible in mathematics.1) the part that we can justify and communicate2) the part that we know well, but cannot justify3) the part which is beyond.With mechanism, the visible is itself an invisible relation between numbers, which can still, be lived, indexically, by the person supported by the relevant machine.
But this is not consistent with Mechanism since, in the mechanism, there is no place for the real ontological structures of The Astral and Causal realms.
But I am indicating of the real ontological structures, lying between our physical world and Moola Prakriti, the state of the Primordial physicality.
Now let me come to numbers since that was the main topic of the discussions.As the primordial physicality start unfolding into different layered structures in some sequential order, at one stage, "discreteness" starts manifesting in nature and discrete layers of the structures start appearing. When consciousness thru the agency of Mind interacts with the 'discreteness' of nature ( irrespective of the nature of the ontology), a perceptual mathematical thought process starts appearing in the Mind.That appears too.
OK
But conceptually, it is easier, and justifiable (computer science) to start from the numbers, to get a communicable theory, explaining what you say above, without *assuming* matter, nor consciousness.There is, the (tiny) arithmetical reality something likeNumbers ==> Consciousness ==> Matter ==> humans ==> Numbers ==> Consciousness => Matter ==> ...
I disagree. Conceptually, it is very difficult ( almost impossible) to visualize the existence of any numbers WITHOUT consciousness, mind, and discreteness of the matter or any ontology i.e the part as highlighted in red font text above
This mathematical perceptual ( it could be even cognitive) thought the process is unique, universal irrespective of the nature of the ontology, but definitely arising from the 'discreteness" of nature, invariant under time and persons.Yes, and with mechanism, the physics is "only" a mode of self-reference of the universal person (which is again implied by incompleteness)
From where and how universal person of the Mechanism emerges out?.
it is from this unique and universal mathematical thought process arising in Mind that numbers take birth in our Minds. All the subsequent operations of the mathematics also arise as part of the mathematical thought process.Yes, but that is what happen in infinitely many computations which exists once you agree that for all x x + 0 = x (etc.).
In our mind though very very large but NOT infinite thoughts arise. Out of these many many large thoughts, some thoughts pertain to the unique mathematical thought category viz numbers and their operations. So there can't be infinitely many computations.
My point is that all universal machines have physics in their head, so we can test mechanism by comparing that physics with what we observe.
Yes, I agree but this should not imply one to infer that Physics, its Laws and ontology have come into existence by virtue of Numbers and mechanism. On the contrary, the converse of this could be true since numbers took birth in our Minds when consciousness interacted with the discreteness of nature.
had there been no discreteness and consciousness and minds, numbers could not have come into existence.
Then the theology of the (Gödel-Löbian) machine is close to Sankara, Plotinus, ... (the monist idealist), but with a zest of Pythagorism.Discreteness in nature is associated with the description of nature in form of "unique distinct identities of Ones". For example, a mango, though in the phenomenal form, has a 'unique distinct identity of One:. But an emotion of love, hate has no such identityNor does the map of where we will find an electron in our most probable (computational) histories. With mechanism, we can explain why the finite beings eventually get the illusion of the infinite and the continuum, even lawful and thus testable illusion, a bit like a rainbow.
I have not followed your above quote properly. Can you give any example we may be perceiving finite beings as an illusion of infinite and a continuum?
So the condition for the manifestation of the discreteness in nature is that in that realm nature should be describable in terms of identities of the unique distinct Ones. Though discreteness in nature is not related to the type of the ontology it definitely contingent upon unique distinct identities of Ones.One is discrete. Ones is continuum. (to be short, and again assuming my favorite assumption).
One as a continuum will be also infinite and beyond our cognitive domain. Therefore, numbers and mechanism will fail to describe One as a continuum. Cosmic consciousness is One as a continuum and infinite
When consciousness thru the agency of the Mind has an interface with discretenessof the Unique distinct Identities of Ones, either perceptually or even cognitively, this leads to a unique universal mathematical thought process in the Mind in which numbers 1,2,3 and so on appear as part of the mathematical thought process.That is correct, but "primordial physics" was assumed, and you don't need to assume it. Assuming elementary arithmetic is enough, and is much less than assuming a physical reality and physical laws.
But that leaves no space for numbers to exist at the primordial level before the manifestation of the Mind and the discreteness of nature in some realms.
The mind is a derivative of Moola Prakriti and appears at the scene much after some fundamental process taking place in nature. In view of this, Physics before the manifestation of the Mind should be indescribable in terms of numbers and mechanism. The mind is fundamentally much lower than that of Cosmic Consciousness and Primordial Physicality in form of Moola Prakriti. A lower fundamental is unable to understand and describe a higher fundamental.Numbers being a mathematical product arising in Mind,
therefore, thru numbers and mind, it is not plausible to understand/comprehend and describe the cosmic consciousness and primordial physicality, both of which are more fundamental than Mind/numbers and also Infinite. This could be the intuitive reason behind Godel Incompleteness theorem. Otherwise also, whether Godel's theorem or any other theorem or any logic are the products of our finite Mind. How thru the product of our finite Mind, we can understand/comprehend and describe the infiniteness of the primordial physicality and of the cosmic consciousness?
It seems a bit sad, to me, because, when following the path saying that the "primordial physics" is fundamental, you need to say no to your daughter wanting to marry a man having a digital brain. Yet, those "zombies" will be the one exploring the galaxy.
What sort of physics take place at the primordial level is not known to Physicists? All are their unverfied speculations.
Now why 0, 1, 1+1, 1+1= in mathematics?You place any one unique distinct identity of Ones say 1 apple on the table.Keep in mind that one of my goal consists in explaining where tables, or illusion of tables, are coming from.
If you will treat table and apple as an illusion then 1 of mathematics will also become illusion.
For the practical purpose, let us take the phenomenal reality of the table and apple as real one, even though it might be an illusion from some level.
One thing more. Even though the phenomenal reality of our physical world might be unreal ( some illusion) but that is not from the perspective of our present consciousness level. From the perspective of our current consciousness level, physical world, matter, our bodies, our minds, our thoughts, unique mathematical thought in form of numbers are quite real and concrete.
If from the current perspective, all will be unreal, our current debate, numbers, logic -- ever thing which falls within our perceptual and cognitive domain will become an illusion. It is from the perspective of the cosmic consciousness that matter, minds, our thoughts, theorems, logic, numbers, digital mechanism become an illusion. We are sitting at the base of a mountain and talk of the perspective as viewable from the peak of the mountain.
OK, though, as I can conceive an apple on a table. I can see it.On the table, there is one and only one apple.Oops! No more. An imaginary Monkey ate it. There is zero table on the table. Sorry.
Again, you are talking about the perspective as observable from a mountain ( which you have never experienced) while you are sitting at the base of the mountain.In your above quote monkey is also imaginary and your argument will become imaginary.
Imagination does not imply non-existence, as is normally interpreted in the current science and philosophy.
But that is a separate topic to be discussed on some other day
when our consciousness will interact with this One apple thru Mind, a mathematical 1 will manifest in the mathematical thought process. Therefore, 1 of mathematics. Now I also place an apple on the table along with the apple as placed by you.OK. (I keep my eyes on the monkey).
If you keep an eyes on monkey , you and your eyes will also be imaginary. So how can you keep your eyes on the monkey since you have no real eyes?
Your mind making the above statement shall also become imaginary.
So we have one more apple on the table, therefore one more 1 of arithmetic in our thought process. Now suppose, consciousness interacts with both the apples. so on the table, it sees two apples ( neither 3 nor 1 nor zero), therefore an arithmetic of 1+1 appear in the mathematical thought process. But these two apples when seen separately are 1 and 1 apples and when seen jointly are 2 apples ( not more than 2 or less than 2), therefore, a mathematical relation of 1+1=2 appear in the mathematical thought process in the Mind.OK.With the digital mechanist hypothesis, it is arguably an important example how universal numbers mirror all themselves.You could have described as well how a robot count the number of apple on the table,
But a robot can't count the number of apples unless it is programmed by a consciousness possessing programmer.
So consciousness is a priori for counting apples on the table whether directly by a consciousness possessing person Or by a robot where consciousness has an indirect role in programming the robot for counting apples.
and the functionning of the robot is expressible in term of number relation.
But you can't overlook the role of the consciousness in building number relations
All the dream layers exists in the arithmetical reality, and some class of dreams are sharable (the "physical realities", notably).
I don't treat those layers as dreams. Both the ontological reality of the physical entities and numbers are real and part of the phenomenal reality as observable from our current state of the consciousness -- the base of the mountain. From the peak of the mountain-- cosmic consciousness, both the phenomenal reality of the physical entities and numbers will turn out be an illusion.
Now suppose both the apples are removed away from the table, no apple remains on the table.I just need to close my imaginary eyes for a second. The monkey will have eaten the apples.
If you treat apples as imaginary, monkey, your eyes, your above statement/logic will also turn out be imaginary. If you want to have your above statement real, table and apple will be real
This leads to the manifestation of ZERO in the mathematical thought process.Right. But even a monkey unable to count up to zero will starve if given zero food.
You forgot the basic fact that monkey will also become zero since you will have also the zero mind to imagine any monkey.Therefore, while dealing with the phenomenal reality take it as real as the logic of your mind.
I mean, it is not because the humans can discover the numbers by abstracting from those number incarnated or implemented in many everyday siutation,
In the absence of aforesaid situations, neither there is the existence of numbers nor human can discover the same
that, conceptually, they are easier to grasp and assume, than "primary matter", or "cosmic consciousness".
This conception is culture -centric and education centric. In some Eastern culture, some pople may not be able to count fingers on their hands but may be able to conceptualize God as the creator of the world.The conception of numb.ers without consciousness, mind, and discreteness is almost impossible.
Without mind and consciousness where conception will take birth & without some discreteness of nature, to what this conception will pertain to? Please examine with an open Mind from the perspective of a normal person while getting rid of the "mathematician" within you for the time being
We might agree on the theology, but have different methodology.My feeling is that you could change your mind if you knew more about the universal machine self-reference theory, and theoretical computer science. The universal machine which observe itself is not predictible, and conventional computing is a sort of art of preventing the machine to explore itself (somehow, with a grain of salt).
From where the self-referenced theories, theoretical computer sciences emerged out?
As a product of our mind which produced these theories when acted upon by the consciousness.
So consciousness and mind are the priories for all theories and theorems including that for the manifestation of numbers. Numbers and computationalism are a very powerful tool but as epistemological tools and as bounded within the limitations of the mind. Our mind can't visualize infinities, therefore, this led to Godel's incomplete theorem, Godel's mind like any other person's mind and logic was also limited by the finiteness of the mind.
But what about numbers and arithmetics when there were no sentient living beings possessing consciousness?When there where no sentient beings,Universal consciousness and (sigma) Arithmetical Truth are concomiitant in the mechanist theory.
But unless mind will not manifest and nature will not exhibit any "discreteness" at some realms, the conception of numbers is meaningless and redundant. Therefore, the concept of the concommittment of numbers and arithmetic truth is superfluous.
Once you have the numbers, and enough laws, like addition and multiplication, you get "instantaneously" an infinite, web of *all* number/machine dreams, and it is structured differently by the eight (main) intensional (modal) variant of self-reference.
But that is the whole issue.
How the mathematical concept of numbers may originate in the absence of consciousness, mind and "discreteness" ( pertaining to any ontology}. Any concept can't take birth in the vacuum. It always takes birth in our mind in the presence of our consciousness while thinking of any ontology perceptually or cognitively. And manifestation of mathematical numbers is a concept in our mind, though a special, unique and universal one but it not more than a concept.
In the first place, there had been no period when the universal fundamental consciousness was not present.Yes. It is "out of time". Consciousness is not a physical object, but a psychological
If it is "out of time:, how it can be psychological pertaining to mind since mind never stayed out of time?
and indeed even theological object of study, a priori. Then, when assuling Matter (primitive matter), we can try a physical theory of consciousness, but usually, I am not statisfy, as it uses some strong infinity axioms
I am also not speaking of consciousness arising out of the physical theories of consciousness. But indicating of the consciousness as Most Fundamental, self contained, beyond causation..
Secondly, mathematical numbers and their relation appear as the unique mathematical thought process in the Minds. and the consciousness. The mind is not consciousness.OK.
OK
So in the absence of the sentient living beings, though discreteness of the unique distinct identities of Ones, Twos, Threes existed in some realm of nature, there was no mathematics of 1, 2, 3 or 1+1=2 due to the absence of the mathematical thought process.That is circular, and directly refutes by the theorem which says that all computations are emulated in arithmetic, and thus, in particular all humans experiences.
I don't find how it is circular? A simple thing, Cosmic consciousness and "discreteness" were there but mind in which all the concepts including that of the mirroring of numbers as mathematical thought process was not present. I am not refuting emulation of mathematical numbers but I am refuting the mechanism of the existence and manifestation of numbers as has been advocated by you.
Here, you are just assuming that Mechanism is false, in which case you can search for a physical explanation, but it will work only by invoking some very special infinities, different from those infinities which are already related to the machines from their own points of view.
No, I am not assuming numbers and mechanism to be false but bringing them down from the Godly fundamental status, as existing out of space/time, to the mundane level of a concept in our mind, regardless of the fact that this concept is unique, universal and special one compared to other thoughts/concepts in our mind. But I am admitting that numbers, arithmetic nd mechanism can emulate any ontology provided the ontology is either discrete or reducible to discrete one. But I am placing a rider that ontology should have a pre-existing real status. I am not supporting the conception that all the ontologies including physical one may evolve out of arithmetics as part of some dreams.Kindly don't forget that in our dream conscious state, dream don't emerge out of Nothing or Nil ontology. Dreams arise out from the ontology of memory and imagination
Then why arithmetics appear to give birth to different ontologies as some dream states?By the arithmetization of metamathematics, which embeds the mathematician in the arithmetical reality.
But without the consciousness, mind, and "discreteness", none of the metamathemtics can exist?
Without "discreteness" of nature and consciousness/mind, the concept of any metamathematics is redundant.
Arithmetic, in fact, does give birth to any ontology and they exist by virtue of their existence or as a result of the cause-eefect relation between different ontologies. Arithmetic is a unique and universal thought process in Mind due to the interface with "discreteness" of nature in form of unique discrete identities of Ones. So there is a relation of correspondence between "discreteness" as existing outside in nature and arithmetics as existing in Mind as the mathematical thought process. The external "discreteness" is universally related to all the ontologies, irrespective of the type, provided the ontology is describable in some Unique Distinct Identities of Ones. So when mathematics in the thought process describes something, it also describes the "discreteness of nature" ( since mathematics had manifested from discreteness) and since discreteness being universally linked to all the ontologies, provided nature in that realm is describable thru Unique Distinct Identities of Ones, therefore, it appears to give a universal description of different ontologies but ontologies neither appear to take birth from arithmetics as part of the dreams not it is that they have no real existence in the universe.Assuming a physical universe. But then you assume the answers it seems to me. I am much more ignorant. I guess there is a physical reality, but all the evidences and experiences make me think the physical reality is some kind of border of the universal person imposed by incompleteness to all sufficiently rich (Gödel-Löbian) systems.Normally, that is testable. With respect to Vedânta, I am closer to Sankara. The physical reality is an arithmetical Maya.
Here, I admit, we have the difference of views and that too quite sharp one. I treat comic Consciousness ( Brahma of Shankar) as the most fundamental one.
Primordial physicality has also its existence -- if fundamental like Moola Prakriti of saankhya or as drivable from Brahma as Maya. Here Maya does not imply that derivation of physicality itself is an illusion. It means it has no fundamental status but otherwise, the derivation is an actual real phenomenon. when we see dreams, during the dreams, all experiences are equally real as we perceive our experiences of the wakeful conscious state in the wakeful conscious state.
When our revert back to the wakeful conscious state on awakening, the we realize that dream state experiences were illusion but it does not mean that "act of the dream taking place' was an illusion.
Had the "act of taking dream taking place" been an illusion, how could we recall dreams on our awakening and realize that those experiences were illusions.
Similarly, all the experiences in our Physical, Astral world and causal worlds might be illusions ( not from the current perspective of the consciousness but from the level of the cosmic consciousness)
but the " act of derivation of primordial physicality from the cosmic consciousness( Brahma) and 'acts of the happening of different phenomena: is a real phenomenon ( from our current perspective of conscious one)
When physicality unfolds from Brahma and it continues further and manifests in different layered structures, at one realm discreteness manifests. But this in itself can't give birth to mathematical numbers since mathematical numbers will take birth as some mathematical concept in minds only.
From the above analysis, one can infer that neither numbers have any existence outside space/timeWhat could that mean? The numbers do not belong to a category of concept to which time and space can be applied.On the contray, like with Kant, time and space will belong to the mind of the numbers who explore themselves, when distributed in the infinitely many computable and non computable relations.nor they have any Godly status at part with God or cosmic consciousness.Seen from outside, I understand the feeling, but that might be too a sort of illusion, explainable by the fact that all machine too will agree that their 1p experience are different from all 3p description.
What is the 1pp experience of a machine? say a computer. A machine lacks any intinsic consciousness, therefore, it can't have any 1pp experience
But, in effect, you are just excluding a large number of beings of the possibility of being conscious,
Any being will not become conscious merely by the fact that it can be described/identified in terms of numbers and arithmetics. There is a large no of AI systems, robots which have emulated the discrete aspects of our mind but they are not conscious since consciousness can neither be created nor transposed from one system to other,
Consciousness of each of us is unique to ourselves. It was never created and never can be transposed to any external system. The thing which can be transposed is the discrete aspect of our Mind, mostly in the form of intelligence, and that too by the intervention of a consciousness possessing programmer. And the physical system in which intelligence has been transposed will lacxk any consciousness.
so you might harbor some pre-Gödel prejudice on numbers and (digital) machines.
I am not aware of the pre-Godel prejudice on numbers
We will digitalized ourselves in the future. I don't know if it will happen in 500 years or 5000 years, but we will do it, if only to expand in the galaxy.
Had this to happen, it would have happened by now.
After all, the universe is 13.8 billion years old which is not a small period. Further, why to invoke digitization for our expansion?
Our Milky Way galaxy itself is a very large place and about 200-400 billion galaxies are estimated by cosmologists in the observable universe. Life might have already existed at many places but we might be unaware due to our inability to fathom MW galaxy even in our neighborhood
Even a protozoa can't be digitalized and emulated in a physical system since a protozoa has also a consciousness, which is unique to itself, and it is non-digitizable and non--transposable to any physical system. Intelligence, of course, can be digitized and transposable to any physical system. So possibilities is of the expansion of zombies ( without consciousness) and not "we: as conscious human beings.
With mechanism, "we" have many (terrestrial) futures, and I am talking about some most probable one.The physical reality is not an illusion.
But you have been stating under different messages under this group that physicality has no real ontological status and that it evolves out of arithmetic as some dreams
What is an illusion, is simply the belief that it explains all, and that it cannot be explained by simpler ideas.
I agree. All the phenomenon can't be explained by any methodology whether of the physicality or numbers/arithmetic since, after all, all the methodologies are the products of mind and used by the mind. Mind though has very large power to explain but not the infinite powers. Cosmic consciousness, primordial physicality and some phenomenon occurring at the primordial level are infinite, therefore, beyond the grasp of the mind particularly in the 3pp domain. Rishis of the Upanishadic period had realized long ago that ultimate reality is not realizable thru 3pp methodologies,
therefore, they delved deep inwards thru 1pp methodology of Samaadhi which involved transcendence of mind and body. Once our localized biological consciousness transcendence finiteness of the body/mind, its finiteness gets replaced by the infiniteness of the cosmic consciousness. For realizing infiniteness, realizing agency should also be infinite.
. Eventually, it is not that simple, but it gives the math and the physical means to make some test.
That is what I have also been dwelling since the time I have been interacting with you that merely by assuming that Numbers have some Pan Godly Fundamental status outside space/time ( which itself is a prima facia illogical proposition), does not solve the problems
I am searching the most plausible explanation for the 1p experience and the possible 3p sharable reality. I have no definite opinion.
I wish you all the best.Thanks and regards.
Vinod Sehgal.
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Sungchul Ji
(Object) (Sign) (Interpretant)
[Cosmic Consciousness] [Lived Consciousness] [Theorized Consciousnes]
<Possibility> <Actuality> <Regularity>
| ^
| |
|________________________________________________|
[2] Josephson, B. (2016). Biological Organisation as the True Foundation of Reality. Lindau Nobel Laureate Meetings. https://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/2277379.
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Bruno Marchal
Hi,Another possibility is that Everything (including consciousness, matter, energy, life, information, numbers, etc.) was there in the beginning in a form that is unknowable to us humans, except that we can recognize them only when they are reified as (or become) phenomena we call energy, matter, life, consciousness, information, numbers, God, Brahman, the Tao, etc., in some chronological order determined by scientific evidence:f gEverything in an -----------> Everything in ------------> Theory ofUnkowable State Knowable State Everything
(Object) (Sign) (Interpretant)
[Cosmic Consciousness] [Lived Consciousness] [Theorized Consciousnes]
<Possibility> <Actuality> <Regularity>
| ^| |
| || |
|________________________________________________|hFigure 1. The ITR (Irreducible Triadic Relation)-based Representation of the Theory of Everything. f = Natural process; g = Mental process; h = Grounding of Information Flow.According to this view, God, Consciousness, numbers, Brahman, etc. are just Signs
which we interpret as referring to one or other aspects of the Ultimate Reality whose truth value is to be determined by empirical observations.
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Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,
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David Jenkins
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroup s.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegrou ps.com> on behalf of C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:25 AM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroup s.com; 'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.; online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroup s.com
Subject: Re: Rudolph Tanzi, RE: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualia
Dear Jack, Rudy and others,
Might I offer the alternative suggestion that anyone who does not understand the implications of DARWIN's theory doesn't understand consciousness. We don't know what consciousness is. But we do know that it is a highly complex instance of something that appears perfectly organised for some function - the encoding of sensory information (real or imagined) in a genetically evaluated way ( where by genetically evaluated I mean that situations that tend to be bad for our prospects of passing on our genes to future generations tend to give us unpleasant experiences whilst those that are good for those prospects tend to give us relatively pleasant ones (for most people most of the time)). Every example of such perfect organisation is explained as a product of positive natural selection.. The organisation in our consciousness ought therefore to be explained the same way. Each small step toward that organization must have had a beneficial effect upon our ancestors' chances of passing on their genes to future generations.
Just think what that means. Since we have no neuroscientific reason to expect visual data to be encoded in retinal-image-like forms anywhere in the human brain, the generators of colour qualia (whatever they are physically) must have been organised through natural selection to produce the colour qualia in these forms. This seems to me to imply that each point in our visual experience must be associated with a distinct output that the system we call our consciousness is generating. The effect of the different types of colour qualia that might appear there can then be understood as varying the probability of that output. For some reason it was beneficial for those colour-adjusted probabilities to vary across that space of potential outputs in a way that was more and more similar (even with colour constancy and the filled in blindspot, etc) to the patterns of light intensity variations across the retina. In my book THE BLIND MINDMAKER I have shown why such evolution would occur if we were the aspect of nature that selects the random outcomes of position measurements of a single quantum particle that the brain has adapted to introduce randomness into our attention-focussing process.
That is why my theory of Position Selecting Interactionism is likely to be the correct explanation. Only if a consciousness is positioning a physical effect at particular positions under the influence of its qualia are you ever going to explain how its colour qualia came to be organised into patterns resembling the patterns of particular wavebands of incident light interacting with the retina.
And if your theory can't explain that, no matter how much of Sutherland's maths you understand, you can't possibly have understood consciousness.
Best wishes,
ColinIf interested, my theory is detailed in my book
THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-M indmaker-Explaining-Consciousn ess-Misrepresentation/dp/15412 83953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind -Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciou sness-Misrepresentation/dp/154 1283953
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Serge Patlavskiy
From: Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
(Object) (Sign) (Interpretant)
[Cosmic Consciousness] [Lived Consciousness] [Theorized Consciousnes]
<Possibility> <Actuality> <Regularity>
| ^
| |
|________________________________________________|
[2] Josephson, B. (2016). Biological Organisation as the True Foundation of Reality. Lindau Nobel Laureate Meetings. https://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/2277379.
jim kowall
This conversation is absurd and ridiculous. Consciousness is the primordial nature of existence that exists before the world is created. The world is only created with the expenditure of energy as all theories of the big bang assume. Consciousness is what exists before any form of energy is expended and before any kind of world is created. In its undifferentiated state, consciousness is what physicists call the void. In its differentiated state, consciousness is what physicists call an observer, which is only the central point of view of an accelerated reference frame that arises from the void as energy is expended. This is the basic Advaita (non-dual) distinction between Brahman and Atman. Since Atman is only a differentiated state of Brahman, ultimately when energy is no longer expended and the world is no longer created, Atman is no different than Brahman. The mistaken assumption that consciousness somehow arises in some complex way from the complexity of actions implies that the existence of consciousness depends on the expenditure of energy, which is absurd since it's based on a paradox of self-reference, and so makes any such theory logically inconsistent as the consciousness of Kurt Godel was well aware. Even the Penrose argument about the non-computational origin of consciousness is mistaken, since the second law of thermodynamics in the context of the holographic principle and the kind of de Sitter cosmic horizon that arises with the expenditure of dark energy (the accelerated expansion of space) tells us that the observable world is composed of a finite number of bits of information (finite entropy), and therefore everything in the observable world is computational. The only logically consistent answer is that the expenditure of any form of energy, and therefore the creation of any kind of world, depends on the independent existence of consciousness, which is the void or true vacuum state.
Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
The notion that consciousness emerged from complex brain computation is belied by the increasing number of mainstream scientists and philosophers who
resort to panpsychism, not to mention Eastern philosophers and quantum consciousness enthusiast who all agree, in various ways, that qualia and feelings existed before life.
If so, feelings (e.g. due to Penrose OR events) in the primordial soup may have prompted the origin of life, and driven its evolution. Behavior is based on reward (feelings,
not gene survival), including not only hedonism, but altruism and spirituality.
And I dont agree that consciousness is necessarily complex. What's complex about a toothache?
cheers
Stuart Hameroff
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:25 AM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com; 'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.; online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Rudolph Tanzi, RE: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualia
Dear Jack, Rudy and others,
Might I offer the alternative suggestion that anyone who does not understand the implications of DARWIN's theory doesn't understand consciousness. We don't know what consciousness is. But we do know that it is a highly complex instance of something that appears perfectly organised for some function - the encoding of sensory information (real or imagined) in a genetically evaluated way ( where by genetically evaluated I mean that situations that tend to be bad for our prospects of passing on our genes to future generations tend to give us unpleasant experiences whilst those that are good for those prospects tend to give us relatively pleasant ones (for most people most of the time)). Every example of such perfect organisation is explained as a product of positive natural selection.. The organisation in our consciousness ought therefore to be explained the same way. Each small step toward that organization must have had a beneficial effect upon our ancestors' chances of passing on their genes to future generations.
Just think what that means. Since we have no neuroscientific reason to expect visual data to be encoded in retinal-image-like forms anywhere in the human brain, the generators of colour qualia (whatever they are physically) must have been organised through natural selection to produce the colour qualia in these forms. This seems to me to imply that each point in our visual experience must be associated with a distinct output that the system we call our consciousness is generating. The effect of the different types of colour qualia that might appear there can then be understood as varying the probability of that output. For some reason it was beneficial for those colour-adjusted probabilities to vary across that space of potential outputs in a way that was more and more similar (even with colour constancy and the filled in blindspot, etc) to the patterns of light intensity variations across the retina. In my book THE BLIND MINDMAKER I have shown why such evolution would occur if we were the aspect of nature that selects the random outcomes of position measurements of a single quantum particle that the brain has adapted to introduce randomness into our attention-focussing process.
That is why my theory of Position Selecting Interactionism is likely to be the correct explanation. Only if a consciousness is positioning a physical effect at particular positions under the influence of its qualia are you ever going to explain how its colour qualia came to be organised into patterns resembling the patterns of particular wavebands of incident light interacting with the retina.
And if your theory can't explain that, no matter how much of Sutherland's maths you understand, you can't possibly have understood consciousness.
Best wishes,
ColinIf interested, my theory is detailed in my book
THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
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On 20 Jun 2017 21:08, "'JACK SARFATTI' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote:
NO RUDY!
there is no action-reaction in the case of a single particle!!you do not seem to have understood anything I have said about that or what John Walker clearly wrote about that.
Anyone who cannot understand the math in Sutherland's papers will never really understand consciousness as a physical phenomenon.
On Jun 20, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Rudy Tanzi <rudy...@gmail.com> wrote:
I meant where do we draw the line between our perception interpreting the universe that we participate in experientially in consciousness and the interactions of a single particle in which action-reaction likewise creates an experiential event? Is that not also a form of consciousness?
Sent from Rudy's iPhone
Dear Rudy,At the moment I am open to all ideas about quantum mechanics, sentient observation and particle interactions. Perhaps you can elaborate what you mean by “fine line” .With regards.KashyapFrom: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rudolph Tanzi
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 6:34 PM
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com
Cc: C. S. Morrison <cs...@hotmail.co.uk>
Subject: Re: C.s. Morrison, RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Physics and qualiaDear Kashyap,I would think there may be a fine line between “sentient observation” of a human and “reaction to an interaction” of a particle in considering experiences that define realties.Rudymore options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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jim kowall
I base this conclusion on the logical consistency of science and the testimony of truth-realized beings, like Nisargadatta, as they try to explain their experience of the truth with the concepts of Advaita. Unfortunately, not everything can be explained. The true nature of what I am, what you are, and what everything is, is not explainable. It can only be described as primordial nothingness, which is inherently infinite, undifferentiated, energyless, timeless and spaceless. We can call it undifferentiated consciousness or the void, but that's just a name. Its true nature is formless and nameless. It is the source of all forms and concepts since it is the source of all energy and all observations, which always occur in the triad of an observer observing observable forms. It is the beginning and the end since all observations arise with the expenditure of the energy that allows for the creation of an observable projected and animated world. It is the end of time since it is the end of animation and it is the end of space since it is the end of projection. You cannot explain the true nature of what you are, but you can do an experiment of one, awaken to the true nature of what you are, and see for yourself. When the dreamer awakens from its dream, its dream-world disappears and only the true nature of the dreamer remains. You can directly experience that true nature. Nisargadatta says "to know the source is to be the source". As all truth-realized beings tell us, the only way to have that direct experience is becomes desireless or energyless. The source truly has nil energy, but it has the potential to create energy out of its own nature, and thereby create an observable projected and animated world, which is its dream.
Andris Heks
Dear Jim,
I believe your perception, which is largely correct, is distorted by the 'consciousness fundamentalism' of certain schools of the Vedas. So, below is my humble criticism of aspects of your position. I insert them into your text in capital letters below.
I would appreciate a reply from you.
Kind regards,
Andris Heks
Sent: Saturday, 15 July 2017 6:47 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
CONSCIOUSNESS MAY NOT BE THE SOURCE OF ALL ENERGY. THIS IS THE PATRIARCHAL VEDIC BIAS.THE ONE UNITED SOURCE IS THE PRIMORDIAL UNION OF LIVING ENERGY AND CONSCIOUSNESS. THIS IS WHAT I WOULD TERM THE HOLY, THAT IS, THE WHOLE OR HOLISTIC SPIRIT OF ETERNALLY LIVING AND INFINITELY CONSCIOUS, COSMIC UNCONDITIONAL LOVER!
Nisargadatta says "to know the source is to be the source".
NOT AT ALL! TO KNOW IS TO HAVE AN EXPERIENCE OF SOMETHING, IN THIS CASE THE SOURCE. IT MAY NOT BE THE SOURCE ITSELF. WHEN I TASTE HUNGARIAN GULASH, I HAVE SOME SORT OF EXPERIENTIAL IDEA OF IT, BUT I AM NOT THE GOULASH ITSELF!!!
As all truth-realized beings tell us, the only way to have that direct experience is becomes desireless or energy less. WE DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT THE SO CALLED TRUTH REALISED BEINGS ARE ACTUALLY TRUTH REALISED. WE ONLY ASSUME THIS, AS WE OURSELVES ARE NOT TRUTH REALISED.
DESIRELESSNESS IS A BUDDHIST BIAS WHICH RIGHTLY POINTS TO THE NEED TO BE DETACHED FROM ILLUSIONS, BUT WRONGLY REJECTS PRIMORDIAL DESIRE WHICH MAY IN FACT BE A MOST FUNDAMENTAL DRIVE INHERENT IN THE METAPHYSICAL LOVE-SPIRIT LIVING SOURCE OF THE ENTIRE COSMOS! IT IS FAR FROM ENERGYLESS; IT ETERNALLY TEAMS WITH IT!
The source truly has nil energy, but it has the potential to create energy out of its own nature, and thereby create an observable projected and animated world, which is its dream.
THE SOURCE IS FULL OF LIVING AND CONSCIOUS ENERGY; IT IS SIMPLY POTENTIAL AND UNMANIFESTED.
ITS 'DREAM' IS MORE THAN A DREAM: IT IS ITS MATERIALISED ETERNALLY TRANSIENT AND CHANGING FORMS.
I am looking forward to replies in this forum or also on:
Best,
Andris
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Shafiq Khan
Dear Jim,
I believe your perception, which is largely correct, is distorted by the 'consciousness fundamentalism' of certain schools of the Vedas. So, below is my humble criticism of aspects of your position. I insert them into your text in capital letters below.
I would appreciate a reply from you.
Kind regards,
Andris Heks
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 15 July 2017 6:47 AM
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On 15 Jul 2017, at 08:15, Shafiq Khan <shaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (Dear All,Consciousness preceded the creation of brain. Because it is consciousness which could conceive the existence of brain to have the physical consciousness in so far as the humans & animals are concerned. Consciousness cannot be only the physical activity and it has nothing to do with the Quantum Mechanics.With Best RegardsMohammad Shafiq Khan
On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Andris Heks <a.h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Jim,
I believe your perception, which is largely correct, is distorted by the 'consciousness fundamentalism' of certain schools of the Vedas. So, below is my humble criticism of aspects of your position. I insert them into your text in capital letters below.
I would appreciate a reply from you.
Kind regards,
Andris Heks
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 15 July 2017 6:47 AM
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jim kowall
I agree with a lot of what you say, and find that our only real difference in "the saying of things" is a problem of semantics. What do words really mean? I tend to agree with the recent findings of neuroscience (see for example the books by Antonio Damasio) that all meaning is established in an emotional context, which implies an energetic context. Without emotions (energy) what can anything mean? By the way, this is also what truth-realized beings like Nisargadatta or Jed McKenna say about the nature of meaning. The idea of becoming desireless (energyless) as the way to become truth-realized is not just a Buddhist idea, but is also a concept expressed in the Tao and in Advaita. I'd recommend you take a look at the writings of Nisargadatta, Osho or Jed McKenna to confirm this basic principle. In terms of semantics, whether we say the source contains all energy in an unmanifested way or is the potential to create all energy out of its own nature is only a problem about the meaning of words. Isn't unmanifested the same as potential? The energy is always there in an unmanifested (potential) way until it's expressed (manifested) in an observable world. An observable world only becomes manifested because energy (desire) is expressed. If the energy (desire) remains unmanifested, there is no observable world, and so the source exists in and of itself as nothing observable (nothingness, void or undifferentiated consciousness). To have the direct experience of this nothingness requires that one becomes desireless (energyless). That is what all truth-realized beings like Nisargadatta and McKenna say.
By the way, this idea of an energyless source (the true vacuum state or void) is inherent in modern physics based on the holographic principle, which supersedes quantum field theory. The idea of a vacuum state based on QFT is not trustworthy, since QFT is at best a low energy approximation or an effective field theory like a thermal average or a thermodynamic equation of state. This is what the holographic principle tells us about all field theories as Ted Jacobson has so eloquently shown for Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric. To truly understand the nature of the true vacuum state (in contradistinction to all false vacuum states, which as Leonard Susskind has argued are always metastable states characterized by a non-zero value for dark energy as we currently find in the observable universe) we would need a trustworthy theory of quantum gravity, but there is no such theory, just the holographic principle as a guide. The only reason the observable universe is observable is because it is characterized by a non-zero value for dark energy (the exponential expansion of space) and a false vacuum state that gives rise to a cosmic horizon that encodes all the bits of information that characterize all the possible configuration states for every observable thing in the universe. The cosmic horizon acts as a holographic screen that projects all the observable images of things to the central point of view (singularity) of the observer, and those observable forms are animated over a sequence of screen outputs (quantum state reductions) that occur in the flow of energy. The true vacuum state has no energy (dark or otherwise), no projection, no animation and nothing observable. It is the source of all observation, which can only occur as energy is expended in a false vacuum state.
To make the connection to Advaita, it's only necessary to identity this projected and animated observable world (that the observer observes) with the dreamstate of the source. I fully agree with you that "THE SOURCE IS FULL OF LIVING AND CONSCIOUS ENERGY; IT IS SIMPLY POTENTIAL AND UNMANIFESTED. ITS 'DREAM' IS MORE THAN A DREAM: IT IS ITS MATERIALISED ETERNALLY TRANSIENT AND CHANGING FORMS". OK, but it's still a dreamstate. Maybe it's better to describe it as a virtual reality. It's the only game in town, but as McKenna says, it's a game without stakes. As McKenna says, every possible experience in the world is another ride in the amusement park. To give it more significance indicates emotional attachment, and that makes you a prisoner of fear living in a state of bondage. The only possible freedom is freedom from emotional attachment and self-identification. There is nothing wrong with love, but once love becomes possessive and conditional it leads to a state of bondage. To live in a state of freedom (free from emotional attachment and self-identification) is to be an "ETERNALLY LIVING AND INFINITELY CONSCIOUS, COSMIC UNCONDITIONAL LOVER".
Aren't we saying the same thing? The only point of difference I'd make is the distinction of fully awakening from the dream (truth-realization) and living a life fully lucid and awake within the dream, which can be called ascended consciousness (as Plato described it) and is what I find that you're describing.
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Andris Heks
Dear Tina,
I am humbled, grateful and delighted by your interesting reply-comments.
You inspired me to more fully state my position for the first time here.
I would love to have your and anyone else's comments.
TOWARDS AN INTEGRAL SCIENCE OF LIVING CONSCIOUSNESS OR CONSCIOUS LIVING. © Andris Heks 17.7.2017
Oh, what an auspicious date to write on this critically important topic, that inludes seven, three times; the number for transcendence in Sahasrara, the highest humanly glimpsable superhuman chakra!
So, can we then transcend our perhaps futile attempts to talk about consciousness on its own rather than attempting to experience and then to describe the seamless union of primal eternal consciousness and primal eternal life as the united aspects of the most primal cosmic cause of all: the Eternal Being of Love, the ‘I AM’, that is both the One eternally unmanifest potential whole and His-Her eternally changing, transient material forms.
At this point I must declare my own biases: I come from a Hungarian youth, blessed with intimacy with arguably the most ancient, holistic and perhaps a Golden Age derived, incredibly wise mother tongue: Hungarian.
I am nearly 71 and I have lived in Australia since the age of 18 and for the last forty years I immersed myself in Psycho- and Yoga therapies as a Social Worker, in particular, simultaneously in the arguably most powerful experiential Western psychotherapy, Dr Jacob Moreno’s Psychodrama and the most powerful holistic Eastern experiential spiritual discipline in Integral Yoga.
Having tried to integrate the two, the last few years I have also been working on integrating Yoga with Faith.
Having been a sworn materialist atheist for thirty years, since a few years ago, I have come to the experiential realisation of the nonsense of my atheistic position and the absolute necessity of unshakable Faith if I was ever gain a glimpse of the truth.
I am impressed by the claim that reason and faith are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to contemplate the truth.
Amen to this!
In particular, I have been working lately on integrating the Yogic and Christian takes on the nature of truth.
By constantly referring back to the ancient wisdom in my advaitic (non-dualistic) Hungarian mother tongue and attempting to articulate it in English, I may be in the position to make a humble contribution towards trying to gain a verifiable glimpse of Transcendental Love; the very essence of Living Consciousness.
The Hungarian has a word for such love, that is absent in English.
That word is the extraordinarily wise word of ‘SZERELEM’.
The equivalent word in Hungarian to the English word ‘Love’ is ‘Szeretet’.
But while the Hungarian word ‘Szerelem’ subsumes ‘Szeretet’, the English concept of love, it is far more comprehensive, deeper, and it is primordially fundamental.
It is a combination of Eros, Filial love, Agape and Caritas; transcendental and human love, in a stunning claim to be the Logos of all!
Let me present to you some of the linguistic evidence that I deciphered over the years, about why this may be so.
First, it is important to understand about the holistic Hungarian language, that it derives from the perception of the Whole and the words then depict aspects of this whole in a causal entanglement and cause effect fashion. As if they were constituting interconnected pieces of a pre-existing but infinitely expanding jigsaw puzzle.
So, in the word ‘Szerelem’ we have a number of fundamental and causally related etymons in a stunning unfolding of meaningful explanation.
The first syllable is ‘szer’.
Szer is in turn constitutes the first three letters of ‘szerv’ from which the ‘serv’ word itself and its further extention ‘szervezet’ clearly derive.
Now, ‘szerv’ means ‘organ’ and ‘szervezet’ means ‘organisation.’
The former: ‘organ’ clearly stems from the latter: ‘organisation.’
So now we have a stunning insight here about the Hungarian ‘szerelem’, i.e. the ‘primordal love’ concept, that begins to point to its fundamentally primal nature.
It tells us already in the first syllable that ‘love’ organises!
And once we have deciphered the rest of this word, it becomes crystal clear that love is the primal living organising principle of all!!!
So, let’s go on analysing the word ‘szerelem’, because a number of amazing meanings emerge from such analysis, all pointing to the absolute primacy of ‘Szerelem’; the notion of its being the essence of a Living, Loving, Cosmically and Personally Conscious Being.
So, within the first syllable of ‘szer’ we have a smaller irreducible etymon: ‘er’.
Now, ‘er’ in turn is the first syllable of ‘eredet’, that is ‘origin’ in English.
Vow, now we are getting further!
So, we learn here that szerelem is not only organising but it is also the originally, and therefore, arguably, the eternally organising factor.
This is also stunningly confirmed in the Sanskrit term for love: ‘prem’.
That is, because ‘prem’ is also also the etymon of ‘premium’, primal and therefore the very first!
In case you are still not convinced, lets go to the next critical part of the word 'szerelem'.
It is, of course, ‘elem’.
And elem is the Hungarian word for the English ‘element’!
Hoopla!
So, what do we have learnt so far is the ancient Hungarian claim, that szerelem (Love)
is the primal organising element of the Cosmos!
I rest my case!
O.K. But what does this have to do, even if true, with consciousness and life?
Lets go back to the word szerelem, because we might just find our trump cards in it.
(Unpolluted by President Trump).
So, szerELem, also have the critical etymon, ‘el’ in it.
It is the root of both ‘ELeven=lively and ‘ELme’=mind or consciousness.
‘Lively’ (eleven) is the root element of Life (‘ÉLet’).
So, what we have here in szerelem is: the primally original element of all organising love with its two intrinsic aspects of life and consciousness seamlessly present as constituents of His-Her One Being!
Why ‘being’? Because it, or HShe (I coined this term as English lacks it as the ‘union of he and she) is living and is conscious.
Can I now rest my case?!
Of course, this is the beginning and not the end of the story, because Hungarian also teaches us how such Loving Spirit materialises and manifests itself in the human Soul and how such Soul derives, is sustained by and returns to such eternally living and organising Loving Spirit.
I WOULD APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS.
Kind regards,
Andris
Sent: Monday, 17 July 2017 6:44 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
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Andris Heks
Dear Tina,
Many thanks for continuing the dialogue; you indeed point to issues close to my heart.
You write:
'In the Vedic tradition, the highest state of consciousness is said to be SatChitAnanada- pure being, pure knowledge and pure bliss'
My reply:
Is not Sat, the pure being, the same as Szerelem, the existential truth which is there with Chit-mind (or Consciousness) and Ananda= Bliss?
I see bliss as a benediction that emanates from the Cosmic Unconditional Lover, in my view, from the Szerelem that I wrote about.
So in Szerelem we have the seamless integration of the Eternal Unmanifest (Shakti Prana) or cosmic life force and Eternal Consciousness (Shiva)
That is, bliss may be the manifest experience stemming from the union of Shiva (Consciousness) and (Prana Shakti) the Cosmic Life force in Szerelem.
This bliss is experienced in the awakening of the Kundalini when Shiva and Shakti unite in a person at Sahasrara in the experience of Samadhi.
So amazingly, causally, the human experience mimics or reflects the cosmic unmanifest experience of union.
That is the experience of 'coming home' into a sense of returning to the the Cosmic Union from which we derive, yet which, in a non-Samadhi state we fail to experience.
Hence we have the experiential maya or illusion of separation in the little ego, when in fact, the emanation (bliss) of the Uncoditional Lover is ever-present in and around us but we tend to block out its experience most of the time.
So the union is there in Sat, the existential reality but it is mostly not identified with, in our alienated experiential reality, because we block it out through identifying with the manifest gross material reality.
You write:
'In the Vedic tradition, the highest state of consciousness is said to be SatChitAnanada- pure being, pure knowledge and pure bliss. It is a quality of the experiencing consciousness - what I refer to as God Consciousness. Bhakti or love is one of the means of getting there (there are other means).
My reply:
I am aware of various types of Yoga. I concede that for example Gyana Yoga gets one to experience 'consciousness' but in my experience not to bliss.
In my experience, in bliss there is Szerelem, that is the seamless causal union of consciousness and the life force.
In my experience, Bhakti is the only way to such union.
Unless I am mistaken, this was also emphasised by the great Prabhu Nitananda, who could beat scholars in intellectual contests yet he resolutely chose Kirtan chanting as the Bhakti expressway to God-not just to God-consciousness, but the Holy or holistic or whole experience of God that prominently includes Prana Shakti integrating with the Shiva of consciousness. Does not, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada whose spirit inspired this blog in the first place, also stood for Bhakti of Kirtan for such union? Is Christ not saying the same thing when he says that I AM the only way; that narrow path? Is this not the Faith that I emphasized as an absolute necessity to get to the holistic experience of God-realisation, not just to God-consciousness, but to the union in God, of Shiva and Shakti?
Paul, in 1 Corinthians 13 refers to ‘Faith, hope and love. These three, but the greatest of these is love.’ Yes, but the bridge to love is faith.
You write:
‘it seems that love can be what brings one to union - but it does not talk of the experiencing consciousness itself.’
My reply: Love in the sense of szerelem: the Being of Love very much experiences consciousness as its integral aspect fused with life.
You write:
The bliss for me arises from the love but they are qualitatively different states.’
My reply:
Are they?
To me bliss is as I wrote at the outset: a benediction that emanates from the Cosmic Unconditional Lover, in my view, from the Szerelem that I wrote about earlier.
Bliss to the Being of Love is like in the metaphor, the sunrays are to the Sun. They are the emanations experienced by us from the Source. We can’t experience the whole power of the Sun directly because it would vaporize us with its might or look at the Sun directly because it would blind us. But we can enjoy and be solarly charged by the sunrays (bliss). So is this a qualitative difference or merely a mild doze of the One Being’s quality?
You sent a wonderful quote in the email you wrote to me:
‘I am in the Universe is a scientific reality.
The universe is within me is a spiritual experience
I am the universe is a mystical reality.” Srinivas Arka’
My reply: Yes, to the first two lines.
I doubt the third line: It does not follow that just because I am in the Universe and it is within me, that I am actually the universe even in mystical reality.
I, the drop, can be in the sea and the sea is in me as a drop, but I as a drop are certainly not the sea itself.
I can be ‘fulfilled’ by it, but the sea is a stupendous macro power whereas I am just a tiny micro constituent of it.
You write:
‘this is about the personal mystical experience of Union between the little self and the greater Self however one wants to phrase it. In the end “that" is the only doer. Of course being Hungarian you will express it in your unique way and your mother was certainly wise! I have added something about differences between the Vedic tradition and the Christian tradition on the forum itself - and I would value your input . either privately or there.’
My reply:
Do you mean that the greater Self is the only doer ‘that’?
If by the greater Self I mean Szerelem, the ‘that’ as I do, then my answer to the claim that it is the only doer is yes and no.
It is the ultimate transcendental doer in that HShe enters us through our conscience in our Soul, so this is the yes, but we also have free will to disobey it.
And even when we are conscientious and obey ‘that, the unmanifest ‘that’ needs all the little ‘these’ of us to make Szerelem manifest in the material world precisely through our little transient beings.
So the ultimate and immortal ‘that’ needs the multitude of ‘this’ to manifest the unembodied Ghost ‘that’, in the materialized ‘this’ world.
Only then shall be ‘Thy will, done on Earth like in Heaven.’
Sent: Monday, 17 July 2017 6:54 PM
To: Andris Heks
Cc: multisen...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
conso...@gmail.com
Tina LIndhard
conso...@gmail.com
Joseph McCard
Jim (jkowall137)'
Andris Heks
Dear Tina,
Absolutely!
Amen to that.
Hence: Humillimus servus,
Andris
Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 2:10 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
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jim kowall
You wrote: "that it is from the mystical union of the small self with the Self (or however you want to name it) that one can have a real understanding of “Consciousness”. However we can discuss the insights of others who have arrived at this state." You also wrote: "when we can recognize this we can then go beyond the forms and start looking for the principles behind them. This is when I feel science will really advance."
The reunion of which you speak with the greater Self can be easily understood in terms of the holographic principle and the concept of differentiated and undifferentiated consciousness. The observer's observable world only comes into existence because energy is expended (dark energy in the sense of the big bang event), which allows all observable images (forms) of the world to become projected from the observer's holographic screen (event horizon) to its central point of view (singularity). All the bits of information that describe the configuration states of every observable thing in the observer's world are encoded on its holographic screen. All observable images of the observer's world are projected from the screen to the observer's central point of view and are animated over a sequence of screen outputs (quantum state reductions) in the flow of energy. When the flow of all energy comes to an end (as it eventually must), this holographic process of projection and animation comes to an end and the observer's world disappears from existence, but the true nature of existence does not stop existing. The differentiated consciousness of the observer returns to and reunites itself with the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. This reunion is describes as a dissolution, like a drop of water that dissolves back into the ocean. This reunion is called truth-realization, like a dreamer that awakens from its dream and realizes the true nature of what it really is.
Awakening is really only about the focus of attention of consciousness. If the observer's focus of attention is focused on the survival and welfare of its character in its world in an emotionally biased, self-defensive, controlling, interfering, and character favored way, the observer feels self-limited to the form of its character as it perceives emotional body feelings expressed by its character and mistakenly identifies itself with the animated form of its character, even though that emotionally animated form is no more real than an animated image projected from a screen to the observer's central point of view. If the observer surrenders and puts its trust in the normal flow of things to sort out what is for the best, stops trying to defend its character or control or interfere with the normal flow of things, and just allows the actions of its character to come into alignment with the normal flow of things, the observer enters into the integrated state with its feelings of connection and expressions of creativity. If the observer turns the focus of its attention away from its world and character and shifts its focus of attention onto its own sense of being present as a presence of consciousness at the central point of view of its world, and thereby ultimately de-animates its world, as the withdrawal of the observer's focus of attention away from its world is the withdrawal of its investment of animating emotional energy in its world, the observer awakens to the true nature of what it really is. Only the desireless state can lead to awakening since that is the only way the observer can withdraw all energy away from its world, which is inherently a state of the observer's focus of attention withdrawn away from its world. With full awakening, when the dreamer awakens from its dream, everything in the dreamer's dream-world disappears and only the true nature of the dreamer remains. Nothing remains. Only the ultimate, underlying reality remains. The differentiated consciousness of the observer ultimately returns to and reunites itself with the undifferentiated consciousness of the void.
As Shankara wrote long ago: Brahman (the undifferentiated consciousness of the void) is the only truth, the world is an illusion (an animation of images projected from a holographic screen to the central focal point of an observer), and there is ultimately no difference between Atman (the central point of differentiated consciousness of the observer) and Brahman (the undifferentiated consciousness of the void).
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Andris Heks
Dear Tina and Jim,
Jim wrote:
Dear Tina
You wrote: "that it is from the mystical union of the small self with the Self (or however you want to name it) that one can have a real understanding of “Consciousness”. However we can discuss the insights of others who have arrived at this state." You also wrote: "when we can recognize this we can then go beyond the forms and start looking for the principles behind them. This is when I feel science will really advance."
Jim:
The reunion of which you speak with the greater Self
can be easily understood in terms of the holographic principle and the concept of differentiated and undifferentiated consciousness.’
Andris:
Brilliant staff Jim!
Can I zoom in, what seems to me the central point of all this debate?
Tina wrote:
"I am in the Universe is a scientific reality.
The universe is within me is a spiritual experience
I am the universe is a mystical reality.” Srinivas Arka
My (Andris) take on this central claim is:
"I am in the Universe is a scientific reality.
The universe is within me is a spiritual experience
I am in total love with the Universal Lover (I AM) is a mystical reality.”
I set out below the relevant part of my detailed discussion of this, a less developed version of which, I recently had published on this blog:
TOWARDS AN INTEGRAL SCIENCE OF LIVING CONSCIOUSNESS OR CONSCIOUS LIVING.
© Andris Heks 19.7.2017
Maybe we can transcend our perhaps futile attempts to talk about consciousness on its own, rather than attempting to experience and then to describe the seamless union of primal eternal consciousness and primal eternal life as the united aspects of the most primal cosmic cause of all: the Eternal Being of Love, the ‘I AM’, that is both the One eternally unmanifest potential whole and the One source of His-Her eternally changing, transient material forms?
I am impressed by the proposition that reason and faith are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to contemplate the truth.
By constantly referring back to the ancient wisdom in my advaitic (non-dualistic) Hungarian mother tongue and attempting to articulate it in English, I may be in the position to make a humble contribution towards trying to gain a verifiable glimpse of the Being of Transcendental Love; perhaps the very essence of Living Consciousness.
The Hungarian has a word for such love, that is absent in English.
That word is the extraordinarily wise word of ‘SZERELEM’.
The equivalent word in Hungarian to the English word ‘Love’ is ‘Szeretet’.
But while the Hungarian word ‘Szerelem’ subsumes ‘Szeretet’, the English concept of love, it seems to me to be far more comprehensive, deeper, and is primordially fundamental.
It is a combination of Eros, Filial love, Agape and Caritas; transcendental and human and any other forms of love. To me, it seems to offer a stunning claim to be the Logos, the untimate Cause, of all!
And HSe (a term I needed to coin, because it is absent in English to denote the union of He and She) is intrinsically relational. Like, it is literally, Being in Love!
HSe is in love innerly between unmanifest life (She) and unmanifest consciousness (He) and HSe is in love outwardly with His-Her material manifestations.
The She and He within Szerelem make love and She as MATER gives birth to MATtER. (Or, MA to MATERial). So we learn that matter has Mother in it and also Father, because it was their union that led to matter. The Ma-matter connection is also confirmed by Hungarian:
ANYA (mother) gives birth to SZerelem’s material manifestations in ANYAg.
Let me present to you some of the linguistic evidence that I deciphered over the years, as to why Szerelem may be the primal cause of Cosmos.
First, it is important to understand about the holistic ancient Hungarian language that it derives from the perception of the Cosmic Whole and the words it offers depict aspects of this whole in a causal entanglement and cause-effect fashion.
As if the ancient-wisdom-derived Hungarian words were interrelated pieces of a pre-existing but infinitely expanding jigsaw puzzle.
So, in the word ‘Szerelem’ we have a number of fundamental and causally related etymons in a stunningly interweaving and unfolding meaningful explanation.
The first syllable is ‘szer’.
Szer, in turn, constitutes the first three letters of ‘szerv’ from which the word ‘szerv’ and its further extension ‘szervezet’ clearly derive.
Now, ‘szerv’ means ‘organ’ and ‘szervezet’ means ‘organisation.’
‘Organ’, clearly stems from ‘organisation,’ (i.e. the part from the whole)
So now we have a stunning insight here about the Hungarian ‘szerelem’, i.e. the ‘primordial being of love’ concept, that begins to point to its fundamentally primal nature.
It tells us already in the first syllable that ‘love’ organises!
And once we have deciphered the rest of this word, it becomes crystal clear that this being of love is the primal living organising principle of all!!!
So, let’s go on analysing the word ‘szerelem’, because a number of amazing
meanings emerge from such analysis, all pointing to the absolute primacy of ‘szerelem’; the notion of its being the essence of a Living, Loving, Cosmically and Personally Conscious Being.
So, within the first syllable of ‘szer’ we have a smaller irreducible etymon: ‘er’.
Now, ‘er’ in turn is the first syllable of ‘eredet’, that is ‘origin’ in English.
Vow, now we are getting further!
So, we learn here that szerelem is not only organising but it is also the originally, and therefore, arguably, the eternally organising factor.
This is also stunningly confirmed in the Sanskrit word for love: ‘prem’.
That is, because ‘prem’ is also the etymon of ‘premium’, primal and therefore the very first!
In case you are still not convinced, lets go to the next critical part of the word of szerelem.
It is, of course, ‘elem’.
And elem is the Hungarian word for the English ‘element’!
Hoopla!
So, what we have learnt so far is that here may be an ancient Hungarian claim; namely, szerelem (Love) is the primally original, organising element of the Cosmos!
I rest my case!
O.K. But what does this have to do, even if true, with consciousness and life?
Lets go back to the word szerelem, because we might just find our trump cards in it.
(Unpolluted by President Trump).
So, szerELem, also have the critical etymon, ‘el’ in it.
It is the root of both ‘ELeven=lively and ‘ELme’=mind or consciousness.
‘Lively’ (eleven) is the root element of Life (‘ÉLet’)
So, what we have here now in szerelem is:
The primally original element of all-organising love with its two intrinsic aspects of life and consciousness seamlessly present as constituents of His-Her One Being!
Why ‘being’?
Because it, or rather, HShe (He and She in One) is living and is conscious.
Can I now rest my case?!
Of course, this is the beginning and not the end of the story, because Hungarian also teaches us how such Loving Spirit materialises and manifests itself in the human Soul and body and how such Soul and body derive, are sustained by and return to such eternally living and organising Being of Cosmic yet Personally Loving Spirit.
I WOULD APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS.
Jim writes:
The differentiated consciousness of the observer returns to and reunites itself with the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. This reunion is described as a dissolution, like a drop of water that dissolves back into the ocean. This reunion is called truth-realization, like a dreamer that awakens from its dream and realizes the true nature of what it really is.
Andris’ reply:
I do not think the analogy is quite correct and this is where mystical truth might come into play.
It seems to me that the ‘drop’ of water experiences him or herself dissolving back into water and in doing so it senses or glimpses the majestic wholeness of the almighty ocean but it does not become the ocean His-Herself, nor do I lose my unique drop identity. I call this a unicentric experience in which I simultaneously experience my uniqueness and being of and in the Universal Being of Love, even if this almighty Lover will always be far beyond me, in spite of containing me. Is this my awakening to truth?
Jim writes:
‘Only the desireless state can lead to awakening since that is the only way the observer can withdraw all energy away from its world, which is inherently a state of the observer's focus of attention withdrawn away from its world. With full awakening, when the dreamer awakens from its dream, everything in the dreamer's dream-world disappears and only the true nature of the dreamer remains. Nothing remains. Only the ultimate, underlying reality remains. The differentiated consciousness of the observer ultimately returns to and reunites itself with the undifferentiated consciousness of the void.
Andris: Beautifully put Jim but I do not quite agree.
The undifferentiated consiousness of the void is not nothing nor does it, in itself constitutes the wholeness of the void. It is no-thing and the other inseparable aspect of this ‘no-thing’ is the ‘undifferentiated’ life potential.
Their fusion constitutes the One Unmanifest Cosmic Lover.
Pratyahara, Dharana and Dhyana are necessary steps to Nirvana but not sufficient for the true Samadhi that you describe as the Nirvana of the void.
In my experience, true Samadhi goes beyond the Sunyata state of Nirvana.
To me that unified state in Turiya is not just the void: it is the void experienced as the all fulfilling Ultimate Lover or Loving Being; the essence of the Cosmos!
It is true that all egocentric desires need to be absent in that state, but the state itself is quite contrary to being desireless.
It is burning with love in the relationship of all my love with Truth:
The ultimate, eternal, cosmic yet personal unconditional lover!
Jim:
‘As Shankara wrote long ago: Brahman (the undifferentiated consciousness of the void) is the only truth, the world is an illusion (an animation of images projected from a holographic screen to the central focal point of an observer), and there is ultimately no difference between Atman (the central point of differentiated consciousness of the observer) and Brahman (the undifferentiated consciousness of the void).’
Andris:
In my humble opinion, it is not just the undifferentiated consciousness of the void, but it is the unconditionally loving, living consciousness of the void and His-Her correctly experienced manifested world, that is the only truth.
So in the ultimate unmanifest Lover (void), there is the fusion of unmanifest consciousness and unmanifest life.
This void then manifests His-Her loving dream in the truly understood material world. The maya is our misperception of the true nature of this manifestation.
The maya is not the materialization in manifestation as such, in itself, but its distorted perception. The true ‘dream’ comes from the unmanifest lover which HShe attemps to manifest in His-Her materialized dream, which is the ever changing world.
Hungarian points to this: ‘VILÁGOSSÁG’ is ‘light’ and ‘VILÁG’ is the world.
So, the world is the offspring of light and intrinsically it is also the light.
The problem, therefore, is not the world in itself, but that we have been misconstructing it now for very long, hence we have failed ‘to see the light’, intrinsic in the materialized world, alas veiled by our ignorance!
The world is transient and ever-changing until it will truly manifest the eternal love of the eternal Lover through itself. The eternal lover keeps Being eternally and unconditionally loving to bring about the matching of His-Her unmanifest dream with its materialization. The problem is not that we are dreaming in this dream but that we do not get the true Lover’s dream and hence we fail to live for its realization!
To my humble self, there is unmanifest almighty animation within Brahman. My soul in my worldly being and through my soul, my mind-body, part-take in such Brahman, but Atman as Soul, as I described above in my take on the ocean and its drop analogy, to me, is not the same as Brahman.
My Atman derives from Brahman, is sustained and is taken away from my earthly husk and perhaps returns to the realm of the unmanifest Brahman when I die.
Qualitatively, to use another imperfect analogy, my Atman, the sunray, is an emanation from the Sun of suns and hence there is a qualitative affinity between the two, but all the billions of sunrays, atmans, are not the same as their ONE source: the Sun of suns, Brahman.
Amen!
I am looking forward to replies!
Kind regards,
Andris
Sent: Wednesday, 19 July 2017 4:17 AM
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Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
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jim kowall
Nisargadatta wrote "The Ultimate should be experienced and not discussed". We are tying to discuss That which is beyond concepts, and so words must inevitably fail. Joseph Campbell liked to say (quoting the Upanishads) "It is beyond names and forms". Beyond space and time. Beyond matter and energy. Beyond all thoughts and concepts. Beyond cause and effect. Beyond being and not being. Words fail, and yet we have a very deep need to discuss it before we can experience it.
Nisargadatta also wrote "Concepts first, then experience". A paradox, or maybe a catch-22. This kind of catch-22 paradox seems to be characteristic of the awakening process. Nisargadatta, like Jed McKenna and Osho, liked to say surrender must happen before you can awaken to your true nature, but you only become willing to give up and surrender after you realize the true nature of what you are. "Surrender cannot be done. It happens when you realize your true nature". McKenna puts it this way: "Surrender follows naturally from seeing what is". "To surrender is to relinquish the illusion of control, which initiates the death part of the death/rebirth transformation". Osho is even more blunt: "You cannot surrender. You are the hindrance. Surrender happens when you are not". This is another way to say the awakening process is a process with many steps that must be taken, but you have to take the first step (a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step), and the first step requires concepts. These are concepts that raise doubts about our customary and common sense concept of a personal self-identity by which we go about living our ordinary lives. This first step in the awakening process is always an identity crisis. "Who or what am I in reality?" As McKenna likes to describe it, this is "Thought destroying thought". Thought used as a weapon in a "Search and destroy mission". This is the self-destructive aspect of thought, which is always the antidote to our concept of a personal self-identity. The cure is in the poison. These self-destructive concepts always seem to be necessary to initiate the process of an identity crisis that is the first step in the awakening process.
Anyway, that's my take on the usefulness of concepts. Anything else we can say is probably just a stalling tactic that slows down the awakening process. Even the ascension of consciousness (in Plato's terminology) is not the Ultimate, but it seems to me the ascension of consciousness and the integrated state are what you're describing. The divine love you describe is characteristic of the integrated state. You describe the "Light of consciousness" of Atman as emanating from Brahman or "the Sun of Suns", but in all non-dual traditions, the Ultimate Source is described as "Darkness, darkness within darkness, the gate to all mystery", as the Tao describes it. Nisargadatta describes it as "Deep and dark, mystery beyond mystery". The Rig-Veda says "Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning. All that existed then was void and formless". The book of Genesis says "Darkness was on the face of the deep" and "God divided the light from the darkness". The experience of Atman (the light of consciousness and the ascension of consciousness) is not the Ultimate. As the Zen koan says: "When you reach the top, keep climbing", until (in the words of the machines in the Matrix)..."It is Done".
Here are some relevant quotes from Nisargadatta:
Only the onlooker is real, call him Self or Atman.
That which makes you think that you are a human is not human.
It is a dimensionless point of consciousness, a conscious nothing.
All you can say about yourself is ‘I am’.
You are and I am only as points in consciousness.
You are the source of reality-a dimensionless center of perception that imparts reality to whatever it perceives-a pure witness that watches what is going on and remains unaffected.
It is only imagination and self-identification with the imagined that encloses and converts the inner watcher into a person.
In reality there is no person, only the watcher identifying itself.
At the root of my being is pure awareness, a speck of intense light.
This speck, by its nature, radiates and creates pictures in space and events in time, effortlessly and spontaneously.
I see only consciousness, and know everything to be but consciousness, as you know the pictures on the cinema screen to be but light.
Once you realize that there is nothing in this world which you can call your own you look at it from the outside as you look at a play on the stage or a picture on the screen.
To know the picture as the play of light on the screen gives freedom from the idea that the picture is real.
In reality I only look.
Whatever is done is done on the stage.
Joy and sorrow, life and death, they are real to the man in bondage.
To me they are all in the show, as unreal as the show itself.
It is enough to shift attention from the screen onto oneself to break the spell.
The Supreme state neither comes nor goes. It is.
It is a timeless state, ever present.
Before the mind happens, I am.
Before all beginnings, after all endings, I am.
All has its being in the ‘I am’ that shines in every living being.
In pure being consciousness arises.
In consciousness the world appears and disappears.
Consciousness is on contact, a reflection against a surface, a state of duality.
The center is a point of void and the witness a point of pure awareness; they know themselves to be as nothing.
But the void is full to the brim.
It is the eternal potential as consciousness is the eternal actual.
Awareness is beyond all.
Awareness is primordial; it is the original state.
Awareness is undivided-aware of itself.
Awareness comes as if from a higher dimension.
The witness that stands aloof-is the watchtower of the real-the point at which awareness, inherent in the unmanifested, contacts the manifested.
For the path of return naughting oneself is necessary.
My stand I take where nothing is.
To the mind it is all darkness and silence.
It is deep and dark, mystery beyond mystery.
It is, while all else merely happens.
The totality of all mental projections is the Great Illusion.
When I look beyond the mind I see the witness.
Beyond the witness is infinite emptiness and silence.
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com>
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Andris Heks
Dear Jim,
Many thanks for your generous reply below.
I am going away for a week for my third residential Kriya Yoga course in an Ashram so that I’ll be incommunicado for a week from Saturday. I have a lot to do till then, so let me just reply briefly.
I do have my own views about dear Nisagatta’s position which I see as an idealist one and I won’t go into it now.
What I would appreciate is, if you and/or others addressed the specific points I made in response to your specific points in my previous reply to you to which you kindly replied now in general.
But you do begin to reply specifically to a specific point of mine when you wrote:
Jim:
‘The book of Genesis says "Darkness was on the face of the deep" and "God divided the light from the darkness".
Andris’ reply to Jim:
Here you clearly refer to an agent that is beyond darkness and light, in referring to the Creator God.
That is exactly what I mean by the Being of Szerelem i.e. The cosmic and personal Unconditional Lover.
John in the New Testament confirms this, by calling God ‘love’.
That, John in turn names as the ‘Word’, who is the unmanifest lover in Christ before the creation who will then materialize the world and its creator as Jesus Christ through the Word.
That in the Christ God, who is referred to, is ‘living’-‘word’, -that is the synthesis of life and consciousness-, is confirmed by the meaning of ‘Word’ in Hungarian.
The ‘Word’ is ‘Ige’.
One meaning of ‘Ige’ is divine wisdom, i.e. consciousness.
But its other meaning is ‘being’ and/or ‘doing’-which in the Word context is –divine life.
Hence, the One Word unites both divine consciousness and divine life as binary components (of equal value) within the Being of the Divine Lover, the One Creator.
With respect, but both dear Deepar Chopra and dear Menas Kafatos seem to conflate life and consciousness.
As if consciousness was the source of life, rather than the Divine Lover being the Source, that incorporates both, in His-Her One Being.
In their new book: You Are The Universe, they write (p 255):
'Life has always existed as pure consciousness.'
Pure consciousness only?
Kind regards,
Andris
Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:07 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
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jim kowall
There's a big mystery here (the mystery of how the creative energy that gives rise to the manifestation of a world) is created out of the potentiality of the unmanifested. The best name I know for that unmanifested potentiality is the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. Don't ask me to give a better explanation. I can't. Somehow, in some mysterious way, creative energy or desire is expressed, and that desire leads to the manifestation of a world. Who's desire is it? Is it the desire of the differentiated consciousness of the observer at the central point of view of that world (Atman) or the desire of the undifferentiated consciousness of the void (Brahman)? Awakening (truth-realization) tells us that ultimately there is no difference between Atman and Brahman, so the question is probably meaningless. In some mysterious way creative energy (desire) is expressed, a world is manifested, and an observer (Atman) is always present at the central point of view of that world, as all the animated images of that world are projected from a holographic screen (an event horizon) to the central point of view (the singularity) of that world. In my simple reductionistic way of thinking, I'd say Brahman expresses that desire (through the accelerated expansion of space, which we call dark energy that gives rise to a cosmic horizon), and then Brahman differentiates itself into Atman (the observer at the central point of view of the horizon) in order to observe all the projected and animated images of that world. In this simple way of thinking, Brahman divides the light from the darkness.
By the way, the awakening process of Atman returning to (reuniting itself with) Brahman, which is understood as dissolution, as the differentiated consciousness of Atman dissolves back into the undifferentiated consciousness of Brahman, can be understood as an ultimate state of free-fall. The principle of equivalence tells us the expression of energy always occurs in an accelerated frame of reference. The end of the expression of energy can be understood as an ultimate freely falling frame of reference. In all the descriptions of truth-realization (dissolution) that I know about, the experience of falling into the void is described. This is how Osho describes it:
You fall into an abyss and the abyss is bottomless: you go on falling.
That is why Buddha has called this nothingness emptiness.
There is no end to it.
Once you know it, you also have become endless.
At this point Being is revealed.
Then you know who you are, what is your real being, what is your authentic existence.
That Being is void.
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Andris Heks
Many thanks dear Jim.
Absolutely beautiful!
Jim writes:
'By the way, the awakening process of Atman returning to (reuniting itself with) Brahman, which is understood as dissolution, as the differentiated consciousness of Atman dissolves
back into the undifferentiated consciousness of Brahman, can be understood as an ultimate state of free-fall.'
Andris' reply:
I, the little i=Atman, the besotted lover, return to my Substance, my Cosmic and Personal, inconceivably loving, Eternal Lover, (Brahman).
Amen
Humillimus Servus,
Andris
Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 6:17 AM
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Joseph McCard
jim kowall
Nonduality means "One, not two". Brahman is the only conscious entity in existence. Everything else is a big illusion, like in a dream. Brahman is the dreamer. Everything that appears in the dream is only Brahman in disguise, like in a costume party. Brahman wears all the costumes. All costumes are part of the illusion. The experience of a personal self-identity is part of the illusion. The experience of Atman and the experiences of divine love and the light of consciousness are part of the illusion. When Brahman awakens from its dream, everything in its dream disappears. All the disguises and the costumes disappear, and only the true nature of Brahman remains. That's what truth-realization is: Brahman experiencing its true nature without any costume or disguise; the true nature of the dreamer as it remains when the dreamer awakens from its dream.
Many thanks dear Jim.
Absolutely beautiful!
Jim writes:
'By the way, the awakening process of Atman returning to (reuniting itself with) Brahman, which is understood as dissolution, as the differentiated consciousness of Atman dissolves back into the undifferentiated consciousness of Brahman, can be understood as an ultimate state of free-fall.'
Andris' reply:
I, the little i=Atman, the besotted lover, return to my Substance, my Cosmic and Personal, inconceivably loving, Eternal Lover, (Brahman).
Amen
Humillimus Servus,
Andris
From: online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com <online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com> on behalf of jim kowall <jkowa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 6:17 AM
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jim kowall
The instability in creative energy is inherent in the holographic principle as we understand it in the context of dark energy (the accelerated or exponential expansion of space that always expands relative to the central point of view of an observer, which is a point of singularity relative to a cosmic horizon that encodes all the bits of information that describe the configuration states for every observable thing the observer can observe in its world). As Leonard Susskind has argued, all state of the observer's world are characterized by a non-zero of dark energy. That's what gives rise to the observer's cosmic horizon and allows the observer's world to become observable in the sense of projection from a holographic screen. All of these observable states of the observer's world are characterized by a non-zero value of dark energy and are inherently metastable states like a false vacuum state. Only the true vacuum state with a zero value of dark energy has absolute stability, but the true vacuum state has no cosmic horizon and so it has nothing observable. It doesn't even have an observer. It can only be described in physical terms as undifferentiated, infinite nothingness. This is what we can't possibly comprehend, since in this absolutely stable true vacuum state there is no distinction between zero, one and infinity. My preference is to refer to this absolutely stable true vacuum state as the infinite undifferentiated consciousness of the void.
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Fifth International Conference
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August 18—19, 2017
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Andris Heks
Dear Jim,
You are saying that when Brahman awakens from its dream the experience of divine love also disappears.
I beg to disagree.
To me, the awakening is Brahman's
(who is the Union of the eternal unmanifest He of pure Consciousness and the She of eternal Life)
realisation that HShe, the Being of 'Szerelem',
(the united He and She)
is the primal Unconditional Lover, who seamlessly unites within His-Her non-dualistic but binary ONE-self, divine pure consciousness and divine
life.
To me, this is the clear meaning of sat, chit, ananda in which sat is the union of chit and ananda.
It seems to me that there is a perhaps inherent ambiguity within the Vedanta or is it ‘a lost in translation' problem’?
In one breath, the Vedas seem to be in agreement with my position.
Eknath Easwaran in his book 'The Upanishads' writes:
'Nothing can satisfy us but reunion with our real Self, which the Upanishads say is 'sat-chit-ananda' : absolute reality, pure awareness,unconditioned joy.'
So therefore, if there is to be non-duality, advaita, then the One absolute reality of Sat, which I call the Unconditional Eternal Lover, (the Being of Szerelem) must have within His-Her Oneself, His-Her two aspects, consciousness= chit and joyful life= ananda.
(in Hungarian I do not have to use 'His-Her' which the genderised English forces me to use as it has not got the universal third person, the Hungarian Õ, that can combine he and she in one word.)
The trump card in confirming the position I take comes from the below statement from Easwaran.
He says that the Upanishads 'remind us that love is the first and last commandment of this realisation (my italics for highlight),
for the same Self dwells in all:
But now watch below the conceptual confusion in this translation of Katha two.2.9 in which the non-dual third person, the equivalent of the Hungarian Õ, Easwaran translates as the dualistic He in English.
(Is this because Sanskrit itself is intrinsically dualistic or because of the absence of HSe in English vocabulary and thinking forces one to translate any living third person as the dualistic either 'he' or 'she'?!
Sanskrit scholars please comment!)
So, Easwaran follows up 'the same Self dwells in all:' (with)
'As the same fire assumes different shapes
When it consumes objects differing in shape,
So does the one Self take the shape
Of every creature in whom he is present.'
(the underlining and italics are my emphasis)
So, for crying out loud!
Can I beseech you all to realise, if I happen to be right, that if we perceive the One Self as he, then it is NOT one, it is truncated into its half, which you call as pure consciousness. To talk about One we must include She, the other half, which is the Eternal Life of She.
That is why the one self I perceive as the one HShe of the Eternal Lover (the Being of Szerelem), that subsumes He and She in the one Õ, the ‘that’!
But with respect, it seems to me, that most Vedic scholars, perhaps because of an unconscious patriarchal bias, do not seem to get this point.
With respect, it seems to me that, you dear Jim, dear Menas Kafatos and dear Deepak Chopra and even the brilliant Eknath Easwaran in his book 'The Upanishads' seem to display this patriarchal misunderstanding.
(I.e. Easwaran translating the 'one' as 'he'.)
(And this partialised Patriarchal view tends to be present, more all less in all world religions, (e.g. The Lord or Father seen as the one God, rather than HSe) except perhaps the ancient pure Tantra and Tao)
And this is how, with great respect, Deepak Chopra and Menas Kafatos also display this confusion in their co-authored new book:
'You are the Universe'
(p 255, hard cover):
‘Life has always existed as pure consciousness’.
No! I would say:
Life has always existed in union with pure consciousness.
(This union to me is the Eternal Lover!)
So dear Jim, are you all wrong and me right?
If I posed the confusion this way I would be on an ego trip.
Rather, I, like you all, try to be a conscientious ‘truth sleuth.’
So, if I am wrong, would you kindly show, how?
Kind regards,
Andris Heks
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Alex Hankey
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jim kowall
Divine love always implies an I-Thou relationship and so by its nature is firmly rooted in the illusion of duality, but divine love must have an origin in nondual awareness. The divine love manifested in a dualistic world in an I-Thou relationship must exist in the unmanifested nondual awareness as potentiality. If you can accept that divine love (maybe better referred to as love of Self) has a primordial existence as unmanifested potentiality, then we have no disagreement.
What I've described is the theory of nonduality. Take it for what it is-a theory. The experience of nondual awareness is something completely different. As Jed McKenna says: "Come see for yourself".
Until we actually experience nondual awareness we really don't know what we're talking about, but the irony is this experience can never be adequately explained in words or concepts. Words fail. So let's agree to stop talking about it.
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jim kowall
Your question is really "why is there something rather than nothing?" I have no good answer to this question except for symmetry breaking. The expression of creative energy (desire) that gives rise to the manifestation of an observable world is always an example of the breaking of the symmetry of empty space. If the symmetry of empty space remains unbroken, nothing is ever observable nor is there ever an observer. Only the unbroken symmetry of undifferentiated infinite nothingness remains for eternity. In order to turn nothingness into somethingness, the symmetry of empty space has to be broken, which requires the expenditure of creative energy.
The basic reason for all instability is symmetry breaking, like the spontaneous magnetization of a magnet or the formation of a carbohydrate molecule. States of broken symmetry always arise in a metastable state, which is a false vacuum state of non-zero energy. The true vacuum state always has zero energy, which gives it absolute stability. That's why a carbohydrate molecule can burn away as it transitions to a state of lower energy. This is basic thermodynamics 101. Symmetry breaking always occurs in a metastable state of non-zero energy. There is always the potentiality for burning to occur as the system of broken symmetry transitions to a state of lower energy. The most fundamental kind of symmetry breaking we know about (which gives rise to the creation of a world in the sense of the big bang event) is the expression of dark energy (the exponentially accelerated expansion of space) that gives rise to the construction of a cosmic horizon (that arises relative to the central point of view of an observer) and breaks the symmetry of empty space. Even the holographic principle is fundamentally understood in the sense of symmetry breaking. All the bits of information encoded on the horizon (the holographic screen) arise as broken symmetries (in the sense of non-commutative geometry). That's why an observable world always is characterized by a non-zero value of dark energy, which inherently makes it an unstable (metastable) state.
I haven't really answered your question, but I have given a mechanism (a geometric mechanism) by which an observable world is manifested. To ask "why" is probably a meaningless question. Maybe the void manifests an observable world just because it can. That's its potentiality. The basic rule is: if it can happen, it will happen. Don't ask me to explain where that potentiality comes from (except for the potentiality of geometry). Somethings are just mysteries.
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Bruno Marchal
Dear AndrisNonduality means "One, not two". Brahman is the only conscious entity in existence. Everything else is a big illusion, like in a dream. Brahman is the dreamer. Everything that appears in the dream is only Brahman in disguise, like in a costume party. Brahman wears all the costumes. All costumes are part of the illusion. The experience of a personal self-identity is part of the illusion. The experience of Atman and the experiences of divine love and the light of consciousness are part of the illusion. When Brahman awakens from its dream, everything in its dream disappears. All the disguises and the costumes disappear, and only the true nature of Brahman remains. That's what truth-realization is: Brahman experiencing its true nature without any costume or disguise; the true nature of the dreamer as it remains when the dreamer awakens from its dream.
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jim kowall
One last point. Implicit in the holographic principle (as the observer's world arises from the void through the expression of dark energy) is that the total energy of that observable world is exactly zero. This is possible in modern cosmology since the negative potential energy of gravitational attraction can exactly cancel out all dark energy and any other forms of positive energy, like mass and kinetic energy, and so the conservation of energy is never violated. The remarkable observational fact of modern cosmology (other than the observed effects of dark energy in an exponentially expanding universe) is that the total energy of that observable universe is exactly zero (the observed curvature of space-time geometry is asymptotically flat). If we add in the effects of gravity, then everything adds up to nothing.
So it would seem that something isn't really created out of nothing, but rather that everything is really nothing in disguise.
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Asingh2384
Dear Jim:Just as to cover one untruth, one has to commit to several untruths, the untruth of zero total energy of the universe in standard model cosmology has to be covered with several ridiculous and nonsensical untruths known as the unresolved paradoxes of the universe which have paralyzed the standard model from predicting 96% of the universe. These paradoxes include dark energy, dark matter, parallel universes, multiple dimensions, superluminous inflation (violating C), quantum gravity, measurement paradox, anthropic principle, fine-tuning etc etc. The combined knowledge of the current standard model, FR, QM, Qft, Q…, Q…., and Q…… predicts only 4% of the universe; hence, there is something fundamental missing from the current theories.The absurdity of negative GPE is further proven by the Hubble data that shows accelerated universe expansion in the far-field (Large R) wherein the large expansive (dark) antigravity kinetic energy dominates while GPE is almost zero. But a negative GPE (meaning zero total energy) would mandate a zero expansive energy at large R, which is totally absurd. Similarly, at R=0, negative GPE would mandate an infinite expansive anti-gravity energy with V=C while the observed Hubble V=0, which is also absurd. Hence, standard model negative GPE predicts a totally absurd universe filled with inconsistencies, singularities, and paradoxes………not a surprise. The fact that the standard model is accepted by mainstream does not alter the universal reality and standard model’s absurdities. The castle of standard model is built upon the sands of allusive particles wherein the governing physics is missing or misunderstood.Hence, the statement that universe is born with big bang from a void is no more than 4% correct and 96% incorrect.
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Bruno Marchal
Dear Jim/Vinod:
The straight answer to the the question - "why is there something rather than nothing?" is that –“Nothing never existed, nor exists, nor will exist.
“Nothing” by definition is “Non-existence”. It is a fundamental mistake to assign any ontological status to Nothingness or Void.
The above logic and understanding follows from the fundamental scientific law of conservation.
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jim kowall
The only answers I have about the creation of the observable world are the holographic principle and symmetry breaking. This is not the standard "big bang model" of physics (to answer Avtar's objections), but it is the kind of idea Amanda Gefter puts forward in her recent book Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn, and it's the kind of stuff Tom Banks is working on. The only new thing I've done is to discuss it in the non-dual terms of Advaita, as I've identified the nothingness of the void with the undifferentiated consciousness of Brahman and the differentiated consciousness of the observer at the central point of view of the observable world with Atman. I know this is a controversial thing to do, but it does solve many of the "paradoxes" that Avtar mentions, which as I see them, are all paradoxes of self-reference.
The holographic principle is the most fundamental scientific concept we have. This isn't just me talking, but the opinion of many highly regarded theoretical physicists, like Leonard Susskind, Tom Banks, Raphael Bousso, Joseph Polchinski, and nobel-prize winner Gerard 't Hooft. This isn't just a string theory thing; 't Hooft can't stand string theory but he accepts the holographic principle as a fundamental principle.
Let me summarize (in terms of the holographic principle) how the observable world is created. In the true vacuum state (the void), by some mysterious process, dark energy is expressed. The void has zero dark energy, but it has the potential to express a non-zero value of dark energy in a false vacuum state, which gives rise to the creation of an observable world along the lines of the big bang event. The conservation of energy is never violated since the negative potential energy of gravitational attraction exactly cancels out the dark energy in that world, which has a total energy of zero. The expression of dark energy, which is the accelerated expansion of space that expands relative to the central point of view of an observer, gives rise to a cosmic horizon that limits the observations of the observer at the central point of view (the singularity) of that world. In some mysterious way, the differentiated (individual) consciousness of the observer also must arise from the void as dark energy is expressed. The void must have the potential not only to express dark energy but also to differentiate the consciousness of the observer. Hence, the void must be undifferentiated consciousness. That's what it really is.
If Vinod wants to call the expression of dark energy by the void the "desire" of the void to create an observable world for itself, I've no problem with that idea. I guess this idea is sort of like the anthropic principle, but it has the advantage of being free of all paradoxes of self-reference. The symmetry broken with the expression of dark energy and the construction of a cosmic horizon is the symmetry of empty space (the symmetry of infinite undifferentiated nothingness or emptiness).
If we apply non-commutative geometry to the observer's cosmic horizon, then the holographic principle is automatically in effect. The horizon acts as a holographic screen, with each pixel on the screen (about the size of a Planck area) encoding a fundamental bit of information in a binary code of 1's and 0's. This is mathematically formalized as the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where n=A/4(Planck area), and A is the surface area of the horizon. The horizon also has an absolute temperature given in terms of the radius R of the horizon as kT=ħc/2πR. The horizon acts as a holographic screen and projects the observable space-time geometry of the observer's world to the observer's central point of view over an animated sequence of screen outputs. As Ted Jacobson has shown, this observable space-time geometry is described by Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric, but this description is only valid as a low energy limit or thermal average (a thermodynamic equation of state) that is valid near thermal equilibrium.
If we apply the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism of extra compactified dimensions of space to Einstein's field equations, we end up with something that looks like 11-dimensional super-gravity, which includes all the quantum fields of the standard model of particle physics. A so-called fundamental (point) particle is then understood as a localized (quantized) excitation of energy and momentum of a quantum field (a wave packet) in the extended dimensions of space and time, while the internal structure of the point particle (like electric and nuclear charges) arises from momentum quantized in extra compactified dimensions of space. Since this description is at best a thermal average or low energy limit valid only near thermal equilibrium, there really is no such thing as fundamental particles. A photon or electron is no more fundamental than a phonon of sound waves.
Dear Asingh,
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Bruno Marchal
Dear Bruno, Vinod and AvtarThe only answers I have about the creation of the observable world are the holographic principle and symmetry breaking. This is not the standard "big bang model" of physics (to answer Avtar's objections), but it is the kind of idea Amanda Gefter puts forward in her recent book Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn, and it's the kind of stuff Tom Banks is working on. The only new thing I've done is to discuss it in the non-dual terms of Advaita, as I've identified the nothingness of the void with the undifferentiated consciousness of Brahman and the differentiated consciousness of the observer at the central point of view of the observable world with Atman. I know this is a controversial thing to do, but it does solve many of the "paradoxes" that Avtar mentions, which as I see them, are all paradoxes of self-reference.The holographic principle is the most fundamental scientific concept we have. This isn't just me talking, but the opinion of many highly regarded theoretical physicists, like Leonard Susskind, Tom Banks, Raphael Bousso, Joseph Polchinski, and nobel-prize winner Gerard 't Hooft. This isn't just a string theory thing; 't Hooft can't stand string theory but he accepts the holographic principle as a fundamental principle.Let me summarize (in terms of the holographic principle) how the observable world is created. In the true vacuum state (the void), by some mysterious process, dark energy is expressed. The void has zero dark energy, but it has the potential to express a non-zero value of dark energy in a false vacuum state, which gives rise to the creation of an observable world along the lines of the big bang event. The conservation of energy is never violated since the negative potential energy of gravitational attraction exactly cancels out the dark energy in that world, which has a total energy of zero. The expression of dark energy, which is the accelerated expansion of space that expands relative to the central point of view of an observer, gives rise to a cosmic horizon that limits the observations of the observer at the central point of view (the singularity) of that world. In some mysterious way, the differentiated (individual) consciousness of the observer also must arise from the void as dark energy is expressed. The void must have the potential not only to express dark energy but also to differentiate the consciousness of the observer. Hence, the void must be undifferentiated consciousness. That's what it really is.If Vinod wants to call the expression of dark energy by the void the "desire" of the void to create an observable world for itself, I've no problem with that idea. I guess this idea is sort of like the anthropic principle, but it has the advantage of being free of all paradoxes of self-reference. The symmetry broken with the expression of dark energy and the construction of a cosmic horizon is the symmetry of empty space (the symmetry of infinite undifferentiated nothingness or emptiness).If we apply non-commutative geometry to the observer's cosmic horizon, then the holographic principle is automatically in effect.
The horizon acts as a holographic screen, with each pixel on the screen (about the size of a Planck area) encoding a fundamental bit of information in a binary code of 1's and 0's. This is mathematically formalized as the n eigenvalues of an SU(n) matrix, where n=A/4(Planck area), and A is the surface area of the horizon. The horizon also has an absolute temperature given in terms of the radius R of the horizon as kT=ħc/2πR. The horizon acts as a holographic screen and projects the observable space-time geometry of the observer's world to the observer's central point of view over an animated sequence of screen outputs. As Ted Jacobson has shown, this observable space-time geometry is described by Einstein's field equations for the space-time metric, but this description is only valid as a low energy limit or thermal average (a thermodynamic equation of state) that is valid near thermal equilibrium.If we apply the usual unification mechanisms of super-symmetry and the Kaluza-Klein mechanism of extra compactified dimensions of space to Einstein's field equations, we end up with something that looks like 11-dimensional super-gravity, which includes all the quantum fields of the standard model of particle physics. A so-called fundamental (point) particle is then understood as a localized (quantized) excitation of energy and momentum of a quantum field (a wave packet) in the extended dimensions of space and time, while the internal structure of the point particle (like electric and nuclear charges) arises from momentum quantized in extra compactified dimensions of space. Since this description is at best a thermal average or low energy limit valid only near thermal equilibrium, there really is no such thing as fundamental particles. A photon or electron is no more fundamental than a phonon of sound waves.Avtar objects that this description of an observable world requires a false vacuum state of non-zero dark energy to arise from the true vacuum state, but this assumption is exactly the same assumption made in inflationary cosmology, which is our best theory of the big bang event. The false vacuum state is a metastable state in the sense of symmetry breaking. As inflationary cosmology assumes, dark energy is what puts the "bang" in the big bang event, but since it arises in a metastable false vacuum state, dark energy can burn away and transition to a more stable state of lower dark energy, which explains the early accelerated expansion of the universe shortly after the big bang occurred. The only problem with inflationary cosmology is it's based on quantum field theory, and assumes that as dark energy burns away a "bubble" of false vacuum (characterized by a lower but still non-zero value of dark energy) is created, which is our universe. The problem with these "bubble universes" is that quantum field theory is only valid near thermal equilibrium, but the transition to a lower value of dark energy (the inflationary phase of the universe) is not even close to thermal equilibrium. It's a phase transition. Only the holographic principle solves this problem. What inflates in size as dark energy burns away is not a "bubble universe", but the observer's cosmic horizon.
The answer to Avtar's objection about a multiverse is there's no such thing, only an observer and its observable world. There is no measurement paradox since there is only a single observer observing its own world. Since the observer's cosmic horizon acts as a holographic screen that projects all the animated images of the observer's world to the observer's central point of view, it is the observer's world that inflates in size as dark energy burns away and transitions to a lower value. As the cosmic horizon inflates in size, it cools in temperature. In this burning process, heat is radiated away to infinity. The thermal gradient created as the cosmic horizon inflates in size and cools in temperature and the radiation of heat to infinity is what thermodynamically drives the normal flow of energy through the observer's world.
Say what you will about my assumptions, but there is nothing unscientific or paradoxical about this description of the observable world,
which is to the primordial nature of consciousness the same way a dream is to a dreamer.
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jim kowall
See Noncommutative Geometry for Pedestrians by J Madore at
https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9906059
The article is a bit technical, but you only need to grasp the first few pages leading up to where he discusses the holographic principle in terms of non-commuting variables. This is the 't Hooft idea of the entropy of a black hole encoded on the horizon.
Also take a look at Amanda Gefter's book Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn, especially the chapter where she interviews Tom Banks. The entire book is well worth reading, but if you don't have the time, at least read the chapter where she interviews Banks and the final chapter where she sums everything up. You can find it cheaply at Amazon as a kindle book and read it online with their cloud reader.
Here's my answer your other comments:
There are two concepts that help explain a lot about life in a holographic world. The first is the idea of a consensual reality and information sharing. Each observer has it own world defined on its own holographic screen (cosmic horizon), but many observers can share a consensual reality to the degree their respective horizons overlap and share information in the sense of a Venn diagram, like the kind of information sharing we see in a network of screens (like the internet).
The second idea is bias in the focus of attention of consciousness. The observer's holographic screen only encodes bits of information, and there is always a state of potentiality defined by all possible ways in which information can become encoded on the screen. A screen output must choose a particular configuration state of information. This choice is somehow influenced by the focus of attention of the consciousness of the observer. The only way the laws of physics can have any predictability is if these choices are made in an unbiased or random way, which is what quantum theory assumes with the idea of a quantum state reduction as the basis for an observational event. If bias arises in the way choices are made, then all bets are off and the laws of physics lose their predictability, which must be the case if the focus of attention of the consciousness of the observer becomes biased. Bias in the observer's focus of attention not only influences what the observer observes in its world, but also which path the observer appears to follow through its world. The quantum state of potentiality is a sum over all possible configuration states of information, but it is also a sum over all possible paths the observer can appear to follow. As the observer observes events projected from its holographic screen over an animated sequence of screen outputs, the observer appears to follow the path of an accelerated world-line through the projected and animated space-time geometry of its world. Quantum theory tells us the most likely path in the sense of quantum probability is the path of least action, which is like the shortest distance between two points in a curved space-time geometry. This is the path the observer tends to follow as long as choices are made in an unbiased way, but when bias is expressed, the observer's path can deviate from the path of least action in unpredictable ways. This kind of bias in observation is an interference in the normal flow of things, which tends to follow the path of least action since it arises with unbiased choice. This is an interference in the sense of the interference pattern inherent in the state of potentiality and the unpredictable path the observer follows when bias is expressed in choice. When the observer's focus of attention becomes biased, the choices made become biased and so observations also become biased.
Emotional bias in the observer's focus of attention leads to the expression of biased emotions in a kind of emotional feedback loop, which leads the observer to emotionally (falsely) identify itself with its character and attach itself to things in its world. Once the observer emotionally identifies itself with its character and attaches itself to things, it feels compelled to defend the form of its character and those things as though its existence depends on it. This is a state of emotional bondage, which is why Plato called a self-identified observer a prisoner. All the self-defensive craziness we see in the world can be understood in terms of the self-identification and emotional attachment that arises with emotional bias in the observer's focus of attention. In reality, the observer is only watching animated images of the world projected from a holographic screen. Those images are no more real than images perceived in a dream. The true source of the observer's existence is not the world, but the undifferentiated consciousness of the void (the dreamer).
...
[Message clipped]
Bruno Marchal
The article is a bit technical, but you only need to grasp the first few pages leading up to where he discusses the holographic principle in terms of non-commuting variables. This is the 't Hooft idea of the entropy of a black hole encoded on the horizon.Also take a look at Amanda Gefter's book Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn, especially the chapter where she interviews Tom Banks. The entire book is well worth reading, but if you don't have the time, at least read the chapter where she interviews Banks and the final chapter where she sums everything up. You can find it cheaply at Amazon as a kindle book and read it online with their cloud reader.
Here's my answer your other comments:There are two concepts that help explain a lot about life in a holographic world. The first is the idea of a consensual reality and information sharing. Each observer has it own world defined on its own holographic screen (cosmic horizon), but many observers can share a consensual reality to the degree their respective horizons overlap and share information in the sense of a Venn diagram, like the kind of information sharing we see in a network of screens (like the internet).
The second idea is bias in the focus of attention of consciousness. The observer's holographic screen only encodes bits of information, and there is always a state of potentiality defined by all possible ways in which information can become encoded on the screen. A screen output must choose a particular configuration state of information. This choice is somehow influenced by the focus of attention of the consciousness of the observer.
The only way the laws of physics can have any predictability is if these choices are made in an unbiased or random way, which is what quantum theory assumes with the idea of a quantum state reduction as the basis for an observational event.
If bias arises in the way choices are made, then all bets are off and the laws of physics lose their predictability,
which must be the case if the focus of attention of the consciousness of the observer becomes biased. Bias in the observer's focus of attention not only influences what the observer observes in its world, but also which path the observer appears to follow through its world. The quantum state of potentiality is a sum over all possible configuration states of information, but it is also a sum over all possible paths the observer can appear to follow.
As the observer observes events projected from its holographic screen over an animated sequence of screen outputs, the observer appears to follow the path of an accelerated world-line through the projected and animated space-time geometry of its world.
Quantum theory tells us the most likely path in the sense of quantum probability is the path of least action, which is like the shortest distance between two points in a curved space-time geometry.
This is the path the observer tends to follow as long as choices are made in an unbiased way,
but when bias is expressed, the observer's path can deviate from the path of least action in unpredictable ways.
This kind of bias in observation is an interference in the normal flow of things, which tends to follow the path of least action since it arises with unbiased choice. This is an interference in the sense of the interference pattern inherent in the state of potentiality and the unpredictable path the observer follows when bias is expressed in choice. When the observer's focus of attention becomes biased, the choices made become biased and so observations also become biased.Emotional bias in the observer's focus of attention leads to the expression of biased emotions in a kind of emotional feedback loop, which leads the observer to emotionally (falsely) identify itself with its character and attach itself to things in its world. Once the observer emotionally identifies itself with its character and attaches itself to things, it feels compelled to defend the form of its character and those things as though its existence depends on it. This is a state of emotional bondage, which is why Plato called a self-identified observer a prisoner.
All the self-defensive craziness we see in the world can be understood in terms of the self-identification and emotional attachment that arises with emotional bias in the observer's focus of attention. In reality, the observer is only watching animated images of the world projected from a holographic screen. Those images are no more real than images perceived in a dream. The true source of the observer's existence is not the world, but the undifferentiated consciousness of the void (the dreamer).
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jim kowall
"Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment?"-Ryokan
Thank you for your detailed and interesting reply. I need to learn more about your approach before I can comment about it, but I'd like to discuss bias in the focus of attention of consciousness. As I see it, without the possibility of bias in the focus of attention there's no possibility of either delusion or enlightenment. Bias in the focus of attention is what gives us the possibility of "free will", but as Nisargadatta says "There is no such thing as free will. Will is bondage". The irony is emotional bias in the focus of attention of consciousness, which is the expression of free will, is what leads the observer to emotionally (falsely) identify itself with its character in its observable world, which is a state of emotional bondage. The willingness to relinquish this expression of free will (the illusion of control) is what leads to enlightenment. Without emotional bias in the observer's focus of attention it's not possible for the observer to emotionally identify itself with its character, since only the expression of biased emotions (as perceived by the observer) can make the observer feel self-limited to the form of its character.
Two things about the focus of attention are worth mentioning. The first is the experience of the "light of consciousness" with enlightenment. The observer is only a focal point of consciousness (which in terms of the holographic principle arises in relation to a holographic screen at the central point of view), but the light of consciousness emanates from that focal point. In the sense of holographic projection, the light of consciousness is what projects images of the observer's world from the screen to the observer's central point of view in a sequence of screen outputs, much like the light of a laser projects images from a physical hologram or the light of a movie projector projects movie images from a movie screen. The focus of attention of consciousness is directed by the way the light of consciousness is directed. The second thing is the connection between emotional bias in the focus of attention and the expression of biased emotional energy in a kind of emotional feedback loop. This connection has to do with how the focus of attention can lead to choice in the sense of what configuration state of information is chosen from the quantum state of potentiality in a screen output, or which path (world-line) through the projected space-time geometry of the observer's world the observer appears to follow over a sequence of screen outputs. The observer cannot really control the flow of energy through its world (anymore than holding up a hand can stop a tsunami), but the observer can interfere with the normal flow of energy through its world when its focus of attention becomes emotionally biased, and that can lead to the expression of biased emotions by its character, which is the only way the observer can feel self-limited to (and emotionally identify itself with) the emotionally animated form of its character.
Dear Jim,
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Bruno Marchal
Hi Bruno"Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment?"-RyokanThank you for your detailed and interesting reply. I need to learn more about your approach before I can comment about it, but I'd like to discuss bias in the focus of attention of consciousness. As I see it, without the possibility of bias in the focus of attention there's no possibility of either delusion or enlightenment. Bias in the focus of attention is what gives us the possibility of "free will", but as Nisargadatta says "There is no such thing as free will. Will is bondage".
The irony is emotional bias in the focus of attention of consciousness, which is the expression of free will, is what leads the observer to emotionally (falsely) identify itself with its character in its observable world, which is a state of emotional bondage.
The willingness to relinquish this expression of free will (the illusion of control) is what leads to enlightenment.
Without emotional bias in the observer's focus of attention it's not possible for the observer to emotionally identify itself with its character, since only the expression of biased emotions (as perceived by the observer) can make the observer feel self-limited to the form of its character.
Two things about the focus of attention are worth mentioning. The first is the experience of the "light of consciousness" with enlightenment. The observer is only a focal point of consciousness (which in terms of the holographic principle arises in relation to a holographic screen at the central point of view), but the light of consciousness emanates from that focal point. In the sense of holographic projection, the light of consciousness is what projects images of the observer's world from the screen to the observer's central point of view in a sequence of screen outputs, much like the light of a laser projects images from a physical hologram or the light of a movie projector projects movie images from a movie screen. The focus of attention of consciousness is directed by the way the light of consciousness is directed. The second thing is the connection between emotional bias in the focus of attention and the expression of biased emotional energy in a kind of emotional feedback loop. This connection has to do with how the focus of attention can lead to choice in the sense of what configuration state of information is chosen from the quantum state of potentiality in a screen output, or which path (world-line) through the projected space-time geometry of the observer's world the observer appears to follow over a sequence of screen outputs. The observer cannot really control the flow of energy through its world (anymore than holding up a hand can stop a tsunami), but the observer can interfere with the normal flow of energy through its world when its focus of attention becomes emotionally biased, and that can lead to the expression of biased emotions by its character, which is the only way the observer can feel self-limited to (and emotionally identify itself with) the emotionally animated form of its character.
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Whit Blauvelt
> I certainly do not believe in many theories of free-will, which I find quite
> absurd. But I think that *some* theory of free-will are compatible with the
> Mechanist Hypothesis (in cognitive science), which is my (biased) focus of
> interest.
>
> control) is what leads to enlightenment.
>
> I am not sure. The willingness itself might be an handicap. That too needs to
> be relinquished ... without control.
Can you list some of the "many theories of free-will"? I ask because I'm not
quite sure there are any, as such. There are many arguments for for a
supposed illusion. But they all assume that free will is just evident to our
common sense. The counter-arguments to those theories of an illusion also,
for the most part, assume that once the supposedly falacious arguments
against free will are shown as such, common sense will prevail.
Can enlightenment of any sort depend on a theory? Or is enlightenment a
shift in common sense, so that it is our view of the world that shifts, that
is enlightened, and not just our words about it?
My claim, as a practical, pragmatic matter, is that nobody actually _sees_
the world as if they had no free will -- no one we'd account sane, at
least. Many are persuaded of the virtues of various arguments about
illusion; but virtually nobody actually shifts their vision so that,
moment-by-moment, they see the world in a congruent way that accords with
the illusion-of-will premise.
You pointing out that the will to relinquish the will is still assuming that
you have freedom of the will is appreciated, and to the point. What would it
mean to _see_ the world as if you had no free will? It would mean to stop
trying to convince yourself to freely do one thing or the other; and to stop
trying to convince anyone else, either, as such attempts presume _their_
freedom.
If I can choose to accept your argument for or against free will, then I
have free will.
Best,
Whit
N.Panchapakesan
N. Panchapakesan
New Delhi, India
> Thank you for the precisions, best,
>
> Bruno
>
>
>. For the first time I understand the words in my language which mean same as in your language.
>
> Panchu
>>>> <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of jim kowall
>>>> <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of jim kowall
>>>> <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of jim kowall
>> To post to this group, send email to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com.
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Bruno Marchal
existence of third person indeterminacy.
Those are called (in philosophy of mind) "incompatibilist theory".
I favor the compatibilist theories, which base free-will on 3p-
determinacy. It is because we can predict the future, that we can be
aware of not being able to predict our personal decision. Free-will is
a routine of the mind, a sort of control structure, to handle self-
indeterminacy, based on self-ignorance (intrinsic for machine).
>
> Can enlightenment of any sort depend on a theory?
or refute, some theories. The theory are only lantern to put some
light on the unknown (and sometimes create shadows, not to be confused
with reality (difficult).
> Or is enlightenment a
> shift in common sense, so that it is our view of the world that
> shifts, that
> is enlightened, and not just our words about it?
enlightenment" might be the total shift from an Heraclitean view of
reality (where all is impermanent and dynamical) to a Parmenidian view
of reality (where there is no time, no space, no particles, no waves,
but still possibly numbers and addition and multiplication
(necessarily so in the computationalist frame).
>
> My claim, as a practical, pragmatic matter, is that nobody actually
> _sees_
> the world as if they had no free will -- no one we'd account sane, at
> least. Many are persuaded of the virtues of various arguments about
> illusion; but virtually nobody actually shifts their vision so that,
> moment-by-moment, they see the world in a congruent way that accords
> with
> the illusion-of-will premise.
longer, time after using that product. Yes, it is very difficult to
stay there and be here, although some approximation of this can be
instantiated.
I have some reason to think that we do that every night.
We don't remember it, because we are programmed to live, and this
experience is really like dying. To stay alive, some amount of
illusion is necessary. We cannot bear full clarity with the eyes open.
It would also spoil the "movie of life".
Enlightenment is easy (in that theory), indeed dying in peace with
oneself might be enough, but being enlighten, and *staying* in that
way when accomplishing terrestrial activities is the very hard task.
It is almost non sensical to do that.
>
> You pointing out that the will to relinquish the will is still
> assuming that
> you have freedom of the will is appreciated, and to the point. What
> would it
> mean to _see_ the world as if you had no free will? It would mean to
> stop
> trying to convince yourself to freely do one thing or the other; and
> to stop
> trying to convince anyone else, either, as such attempts presume
> _their_
> freedom.
>
> If I can choose to accept your argument for or against free will,
> then I
> have free will.
say 2+2=4.
You can't really accept or not an argument. You need to understand it,
or find a flaw. The free-will will consist in rejecting the theory, or
not, in which such an argument makes sense.
Have you heard about meta-games? Those are games where you are allowed
to change the rule of the game during a play. Of course, you need meta-
rules, to change the rules of the game in some interesting way. But
some version allows changing the meta-rules too, and so one. Free will
is a bit like that. It is limited by the constraints of life (Nature's
argument per authority!). Ultimate free-will would be like absolute
death, and absence of any rule. For the machines, even suicide does
not lead to such an absolute death, which might or not exist. Cutting
the cycle of death and life is not easy: it asks for some amount of
work, and much more so when trying to come back in the village and
help others (if that is possible).
Best,
Bruno
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> Science and Scientist - 2017
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> 138
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Whit Blauvelt
> Dear Whit,
> Those are called (in philosophy of mind) "incompatibilist theory".
>
> I favor the compatibilist theories, which base free-will on 3p-determinacy.
> It is because we can predict the future, that we can be aware of not being
> able to predict our personal decision. Free-will is a routine of the mind, a
> self-ignorance (intrinsic for machine).
Hi Bruno,
I'm aware of the compatibilists (e.g. Dennett). However I deny they are
truly theories of free will; instead they are theories of an illusion of
free will -- that we have an illusion of free will which is compatible with
our actually having none. Yes, there are those of use who find compatiblism
incoherent. But that's not a theory about free will, that's a critique of a
theory of illusion.
> >Can enlightenment of any sort depend on a theory?
>
> It depends on reality only, for which we can only propose and improve, or
> refute, some theories. The theory are only lantern to put some light on the
> unknown (and sometimes create shadows, not to be confused with reality
> (difficult).
> >Or is enlightenment a shift in common sense, so that it is our view of
> >the world that shifts, that is enlightened, and not just our words about
> >it?
>
> We can see enlightenment in this way. I guess. The "absolute enlightenment"
> might be the total shift from an Heraclitean view of reality (where all is
> impermanent and dynamical) to a Parmenidian view of reality (where there is
> no time, no space, no particles, no waves, but still possibly numbers and
> addition and multiplication (necessarily so in the computationalist frame).
Parmenidian view.
> >My claim, as a practical, pragmatic matter, is that nobody actually _sees_
> >the world as if they had no free will -- no one we'd account sane, at
> >least. Many are persuaded of the virtues of various arguments about
> >illusion; but virtually nobody actually shifts their vision so that,
> >moment-by-moment, they see the world in a congruent way that accords with
> >the illusion-of-will premise.
>
> 30% of Salvia divinorum experiencer do this, for some short, or longer, time
> after using that product. Yes, it is very difficult to stay there and be
> here, although some approximation of this can be instantiated.
meditation retreat. I've no doubt such experience is available. My doubt is
that anyone lives in such a state outside of monastic settings, or their
equivalent. If you're in a place and time designed to eliminate any need for
choices, yes you can give them up. The truths of more worth to me are those
which can be carried through the normal world.
> I have some reason to think that we do that every night.
>
> We don't remember it, because we are programmed to live, and this
> experience is really like dying. To stay alive, some amount of illusion is
> necessary. We cannot bear full clarity with the eyes open. It would also
> spoil the "movie of life". Enlightenment is easy (in that theory), indeed
> dying in peace with oneself might be enough, but being enlighten, and
> *staying* in that way when accomplishing terrestrial activities is the
> very hard task. It is almost non sensical to do that.
> >You pointing out that the will to relinquish the will is still assuming
> >that you have freedom of the will is appreciated, and to the point. What
> >would it mean to _see_ the world as if you had no free will? It would
> >mean to stop trying to convince yourself to freely do one thing or the
> >other; and to stop trying to convince anyone else, either, as such
> >attempts presume _their_ freedom.
> >
> >If I can choose to accept your argument for or against free will, then I
> >have free will.
>
> I like to quote Orwell on this (in 1984): freedom is the ability to say
> 2+2=4.
>
> You can't really accept or not an argument. You need to understand it, or
> find a flaw. The free-will will consist in rejecting the theory, or not, in
> which such an argument makes sense.
if we believed them, in this world. I do not believe, fundamentally, we're
born into a world in which we must live a lie. Freedom is the essence of the
world, of creativity, of life. I've had my own mystical experiences which
support this. They are not arguments per se. But they're convincing, for me.
> Have you heard about meta-games? Those are games where you are allowed to
> change the rule of the game during a play. Of course, you need meta-rules,
> to change the rules of the game in some interesting way. But some version
> allows changing the meta-rules too, and so one. Free will is a bit like
> that. It is limited by the constraints of life (Nature's argument per
> authority!). Ultimate free-will would be like absolute death, and absence of
> any rule. For the machines, even suicide does not lead to such an absolute
> death, which might or not exist. Cutting the cycle of death and life is not
> easy: it asks for some amount of work, and much more so when trying to come
> back in the village and help others (if that is possible).
if we have some freedom, it's a slippery slope to where we gain so much
freedom that the laws of the universe dissolve into total anarchy. That's
also the agument of every dictator against freedom. It's total bull. The
same argument can be made in reverse: That if we have some restriction, it's
a slippery slope to where we're totally restricted. Obviously the real world
happens in the nexus, in the blend of free and determined aspects.
Best,
Whit
C. S. Morrison
Dear Whit
I have a theory of free will. It is published in my book The Blind Mindmaker (available on Amazon). In short, it proposes that a consciousness is the aspect of nature that freely selects the position of a single quantum particle from a subjective experience where all the possible positions of that particle are represented in qualia that fully determine their probability of being selected (by making them more or less salient in the experience of that consciousness). After showing that this view of consciousness is the only one that does not demand unscientific functionalistic laws to account for the existence and organisation of our qualia, it then reveals a set of selection pressures that would result in the adaptation of this free will by an organism's brain, and the subsequent reorganisation of the particle's experience into a form that represents the organism's sensory input and state of mind (present, past or imagined).
I believe those who so confidently claim free will to be an illusion are forgetting that the only scientific means of accounting for the organisation of any example of seemingly perfect functional design in a living organism is Darwinian natural selection. That process demands that the organised structure have some effect upon its environment that varies in different ways with all the different possible organisations. And as my book argues, the only known substance that has the required properties to evolve into the amazing representation of reality we experience is the wave function of a quantum particle, THE EFFECT OF WHICH IS NOT DETERMINISTIC. Although some interpretations of QM argue that this indeterminism is an illusion and that at a deeper level all is really deterministic, that view is not supported by our experience of consciousness and the way it has evolved. Why would nature need to give us painful experience when our body is sustaining damage if not to try to persuade us to choose non-damaging options? Why would we evolve to have enjoyable sensations with beneficial circumstances if not to encourage us to keep our body in those situations. Why would objects that reflect more light and acoustic waves in our direction get represented by stronger, more salient, qualia if not to persuade us to make our organism attend to them rather than some other stimulus. If we didn't have any free choice, such an organisation of experience would be completely unnecessary and would not therefore have evolved.
Best wishes,
Colin
C. S. Morrison - Author of THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation.
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
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Fifth International Conference
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Bruno Marchal
Dear Whit
I have a theory of free will. It is published in my book The Blind Mindmaker (available on Amazon). In short, it proposes that a consciousness is the aspect of nature that freely selects the position of a single quantum particle from a subjective experience where all the possible positions of that particle are represented in qualia that fully determine their probability of being selected (by making them more or less salient in the experience of that consciousness). After showing that this view of consciousness is the only one that does not demand unscientific functionalistic laws to account for the existence and organisation of our qualia, it then reveals a set of selection pressures that would result in the adaptation of this free will by an organism's brain, and the subsequent reorganisation of the particle's experience into a form that represents the organism's sensory input and state of mind (present, past or imagined).
I believe those who so confidently claim free will to be an illusion are forgetting that the only scientific means of accounting for the organisation of any example of seemingly perfect functional design in a living organism is Darwinian natural selection. That process demands that the organised structure have some effect upon its environment that varies in different ways with all the different possible organisations. And as my book argues, the only known substance that has the required properties to evolve into the amazing representation of reality we experience is the wave function of a quantum particle, THE EFFECT OF WHICH IS NOT DETERMINISTIC.
Although some interpretations of QM argue that this indeterminism is an illusion and that at a deeper level all is really deterministic, that view is not supported by our experience of consciousness and the way it has evolved.
Why would nature need to give us painful experience when our body is sustaining damage if not to try to persuade us to choose non-damaging options? Why would we evolve to have enjoyable sensations with beneficial circumstances if not to encourage us to keep our body in those situations. Why would objects that reflect more light and acoustic waves in our direction get represented by stronger, more salient, qualia if not to persuade us to make our organism attend to them rather than some other stimulus. If we didn't have any free choice, such an organisation of experience would be completely unnecessary and would not therefore have evolved.
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Whit Blauvelt
Do you differentiate your approach from Henry Stapp's invocation of the
quantum zeno effect, which seems similar?
When you say an "aspect of nature ... freely selects the position," are you
implying the aspect of nature _is_ consciousness? Or something else of which
naming is difficult?
A standard response to the wave function not being deterministic as an
argument for freedom is that randomness is not order, either. And
consciousness is ordered, so merely being nondeterministic, because random,
cannot be enough.
Most determinists come from specific backgrounds in learning, emphasizing
certain theories in physics. What I think they miss is that there are a
great many other fields of learning, particularly about humanity, which
accept freedom as a postulate, which have substantial accomplishments, and
which would be reduced to rubble if freedom were truly proven an illusion. I
have no commitment to physics being presently perfect enough to prove
determinism. On the other hand, nor am I committed to history or psychology
or sociology or economics or any of the many other substantial fields of
learning as being perfect. But I'm committed to all those fields containing
substantial insights and advances -- all dependent on the assumption of
freedom. On balance, they prove freedom works as a premise.
The evolutionary argument you make also has another response, which perhaps
you've dealt with -- Stephen Jay Gould's theory of spandrels -- that
evolution produces byproducts which are not themselves Darwinian selections.
Despite raising this, I generally agree with you: there's no Darwinian world
which includes consciousness where the advantages of consciousness are not
real enough to be selected for.
Best,
Whit
BMP
From: Whit Blauvelt <wh...@csmind.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2017 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Which came first, consciousness or the brain?
Whit Blauvelt
Namaste. Thanks for adding these perspectives.
Our whole notion of "determination" comes from our essential personal
experience in determining things. The infant learns cause and effect by
carefully experimenting with causing effects.
So we would have no conception of "determinism" if we were not, in our own
experience, essentially free -- free within restraints, to be sure. Ceteris
paribus we are bound by gravity, for example.
Without freedom, there would be no perspective from which to gain either the
concept of freedom, nor the concept of determinism. That we have such
concepts proves our freedom is real. Similarly there is a recently proposed
test for consciousness in machines: that to have anything like the concept
of consciousness humans have, a machine would have to be conscious itself.
Best regards,
Whit
jim kowall
"People don't know what they don't know"-Jed McKenna
Spiritual enlightenment or truth-realization as a topic for discussion has a literature with a history extending back thousands of years, with descriptions in the Tao, Advaita, and Zen. It also has many recent descriptions. My favorite recent descriptions are those by Jed McKenna, Nisargadatta and Osho. I find the descriptions of these three fellows to be detailed, complete and logically consistent, which is important for a scientific mind like mine. The most important point to make is that spiritual enlightenment or truth-realization has the nature of awakening from the dream. When the dreamer awakens from its dream, everything in dreamer's dream disappears and only the true nature of the dreamer remains. The true nature of the dreamer can be called the underlying reality of the dream. The terms ultimate or absolute reality are also good. The dream reality isn't really real, since it's like a virtual reality that disappears when the dreamer awakens, leaving only the underlying reality of the dream to remain. The problem is spiritual enlightenment or truth-realization is often confused with experiences that occur within the dream. The experiences of cosmic consciousness and transcendental experiences of unity all occur within the dream. These are altered states of consciousness that are often drug induced, and really have nothing to do with the experience of awakening from the dream. The biggest distinction is altered states of consciousness are all transient experiences that can come and go, while spiritual enlightenment or truth-realization is abiding. Once one awakens from the dream one's consciousness is forever changed and there is no going back. Another misconception is what Jed McKenna calls the integrated state, which often has the character of awakening or becoming lucid within the dream, and so is confused with awakening from the dream. The integrated state is what mystical poets like Rumi write about. If one awakens from one's dream, one is pretty much guaranteed to enter into the integrated state and become lucid when one starts dreaming again, but the integrated state and lucid dreaming often occur without full awakening.
How is awakening from the dream even possible? The answer has to do with the true nature of consciousness. The mistake typically made is to assume that consciousness somehow arises from the world of matter, energy, space and time. That assumption is just plain wrong. It's exactly the other way around. The world of matter, energy, space and time arises from the primordial nature of consciousness. This is exactly what the holographic principle in the context of dark energy and an observer-dependent cosmic horizon tells us. The consciousness we experience in the world is an individual or differentiated kind of consciousness, but it's not the primordial nature of consciousness. The remarkable thing is the holographic principle tells us we don't need the physics of matter, energy, space and time to explain the primordial nature of consciousness. Instead, we can turn physics on its head and make it dance for us. Starting with the void we can explain all of physics thanks to the holographic principle and dark energy. The upshot is the void is the primordial nature of consciousness, which can be called nondual awareness or undifferentiated consciousness. Matter, energy, space and time all arise from the void or the true primordial nature of consciousness, not the other way around. Our individual consciousness is only differentiated from the true primordial nature of consciousness when our world is created and our dream begins.
The easiest way to understand how awakening from the dream is possible is to conceptualize the differentiated consciousness of the observer as a focal point of consciousness that arises in relation to a holographic screen that encodes all the bits of information for the observer's world and projects all the images of the observer's world to the central point of view of the observer over an animated sequence of screen outputs. This holographic projection and animation process requires energy. When the expenditure of that energy comes to an end, as the second law of thermodynamics tells us it eventually must, this holographic projection and animation process must come to an end. The dreamer's dream comes to an end and the dreamer awakens from its dream. All descriptions of awakening from the dream are described in terms of some kind of dissolution, like a drop of water that dissolves back into the ocean, as the differentiated point of consciousness of the observer returns to, rejoins and reunites itself with the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. Another common description is falling into the void, like a state of free fall that occurs when the expenditure of energy comes to an end.
How can the expenditure of energy come to an end? It has to come to an end when all energy eventually burns away and heat is radiated away to infinity. That's basic thermodynamics. Boltzmann called this the heat death of the universe. How is it possible for an individual observer to bring the expenditure of all energy in its world to an end? In all nondual discussions of truth-realization this is described as entering into the desireless state. The basic answer has to do with the observer's focus of attention. The observer cannot control the way energy flows through its world, but the observer allows energy to flow with its focus of attention on it. If the observer withdraws the focus of its attention away from its world, it also withdraws its investment of emotional energy in its world. The key step in the process of awakening is when the observer shifts the focus of its attention away from its world and turns its focus of attention onto its own sense of being present as a presence of consciousness at the central point of view of its world.
It's important to point out that only the observer's world disappears from existence when the dreamer awakens from its dream. From the point of view of other observers, their worlds go right on existing. Every observer has its own world with animated images of that world projected from its own holographic screen, which is an observer-dependent horizon. The dreamer, which is the undifferentiated consciousness of the void, awakens from its dream observer by observer.
Truth-realization is only about the true nature of the dreamer that remains when the dreamer awakens from its dream. After awakening, the dreamer can start dreaming again, but now the consciousness of the observer is forever changed. This is the part of the process that is described as spiritual enlightenment. The lucid observer can see that all the images of its world are projected from a screen like the animated images of a movie, and that it's the observer's own light of consciousness that emanates from its own focal point of consciousness that projects those images, like the light of a movie projector. The lucid observer also has the experience of the ascension of consciousness. The lucid observer perceives those images from outside the screen, which is a higher dimension in relation to the screen, and can never again identify itself with the lower dimensional animated image of its character in the movie. An ascended observer naturally stops trying to interfere with or control the normal flow of energy that animates the movie. All emotional bias in the observer's focus of attention comes to an end, and so an ascended observer enters into the integrated state as the flow of energy that animates the observer's character comes into alignment with the normal flow of energy through the observer's world.
You might think I'm making this all up, but read the references I've mentioned above, or better yet, as Jed McKenna likes to say "Come see for yourself".
Jim
Dear Jim,
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Bruno Marchal
Dear Bruno and Whit"People don't know what they don't know"-Jed McKennaSpiritual enlightenment or truth-realization as a topic for discussion has a literature with a history extending back thousands of years, with descriptions in the Tao, Advaita, and Zen. It also has many recent descriptions. My favorite recent descriptions are those by Jed McKenna, Nisargadatta and Osho. I find the descriptions of these three fellows to be detailed, complete and logically consistent, which is important for a scientific mind like mine. The most important point to make is that spiritual enlightenment or truth-realization has the nature of awakening from the dream. When the dreamer awakens from its dream, everything in dreamer's dream disappears and only the true nature of the dreamer remains. The true nature of the dreamer can be called the underlying reality of the dream. The terms ultimate or absolute reality are also good. The dream reality isn't really real, since it's like a virtual reality that disappears when the dreamer awakens, leaving only the underlying reality of the dream to remain. The problem is spiritual enlightenment or truth-realization is often confused with experiences that occur within the dream. The experiences of cosmic consciousness and transcendental experiences of unity all occur within the dream. These are altered states of consciousness that are often drug induced, and really have nothing to do with the experience of awakening from the dream. The biggest distinction is altered states of consciousness are all transient experiences that can come and go, while spiritual enlightenment or truth-realization is abiding. Once one awakens from the dream one's consciousness is forever changed and there is no going back. Another misconception is what Jed McKenna calls the integrated state, which often has the character of awakening or becoming lucid within the dream, and so is confused with awakening from the dream. The integrated state is what mystical poets like Rumi write about. If one awakens from one's dream, one is pretty much guaranteed to enter into the integrated state and become lucid when one starts dreaming again, but the integrated state and lucid dreaming often occur without full awakening.How is awakening from the dream even possible? The answer has to do with the true nature of consciousness. The mistake typically made is to assume that consciousness somehow arises from the world of matter, energy, space and time. That assumption is just plain wrong. It's exactly the other way around. The world of matter, energy, space and time arises from the primordial nature of consciousness. This is exactly what the holographic principle in the context of dark energy and an observer-dependent cosmic horizon tells us. The consciousness we experience in the world is an individual or differentiated kind of consciousness, but it's not the primordial nature of consciousness. The remarkable thing is the holographic principle tells us we don't need the physics of matter, energy, space and time to explain the primordial nature of consciousness. Instead, we can turn physics on its head and make it dance for us. Starting with the void we can explain all of physics thanks to the holographic principle and dark energy. The upshot is the void is the primordial nature of consciousness, which can be called nondual awareness or undifferentiated consciousness. Matter, energy, space and time all arise from the void or the true primordial nature of consciousness, not the other way around. Our individual consciousness is only differentiated from the true primordial nature of consciousness when our world is created and our dream begins.The easiest way to understand how awakening from the dream is possible is to conceptualize the differentiated consciousness of the observer as a focal point of consciousness that arises in relation to a holographic screen that encodes all the bits of information for the observer's world and projects all the images of the observer's world to the central point of view of the observer over an animated sequence of screen outputs. This holographic projection and animation process requires energy. When the expenditure of that energy comes to an end, as the second law of thermodynamics tells us it eventually must, this holographic projection and animation process must come to an end. The dreamer's dream comes to an end and the dreamer awakens from its dream. All descriptions of awakening from the dream are described in terms of some kind of dissolution, like a drop of water that dissolves back into the ocean, as the differentiated point of consciousness of the observer returns to, rejoins and reunites itself with the undifferentiated consciousness of the void. Another common description is falling into the void, like a state of free fall that occurs when the expenditure of energy comes to an end.How can the expenditure of energy come to an end? It has to come to an end when all energy eventually burns away and heat is radiated away to infinity. That's basic thermodynamics. Boltzmann called this the heat death of the universe. How is it possible for an individual observer to bring the expenditure of all energy in its world to an end? In all nondual discussions of truth-realization this is described as entering into the desireless state. The basic answer has to do with the observer's focus of attention. The observer cannot control the way energy flows through its world, but the observer allows energy to flow with its focus of attention on it. If the observer withdraws the focus of its attention away from its world, it also withdraws its investment of emotional energy in its world. The key step in the process of awakening is when the observer shifts the focus of its attention away from its world and turns its focus of attention onto its own sense of being present as a presence of consciousness at the central point of view of its world.It's important to point out that only the observer's world disappears from existence when the dreamer awakens from its dream. From the point of view of other observers, their worlds go right on existing. Every observer has its own world with animated images of that world projected from its own holographic screen, which is an observer-dependent horizon. The dreamer, which is the undifferentiated consciousness of the void, awakens from its dream observer by observer.Truth-realization is only about the true nature of the dreamer that remains when the dreamer awakens from its dream. After awakening, the dreamer can start dreaming again, but now the consciousness of the observer is forever changed. This is the part of the process that is described as spiritual enlightenment. The lucid observer can see that all the images of its world are projected from a screen like the animated images of a movie, and that it's the observer's own light of consciousness that emanates from its own focal point of consciousness that projects those images, like the light of a movie projector. The lucid observer also has the experience of the ascension of consciousness. The lucid observer perceives those images from outside the screen, which is a higher dimension in relation to the screen, and can never again identify itself with the lower dimensional animated image of its character in the movie. An ascended observer naturally stops trying to interfere with or control the normal flow of energy that animates the movie. All emotional bias in the observer's focus of attention comes to an end, and so an ascended observer enters into the integrated state as the flow of energy that animates the observer's character comes into alignment with the normal flow of energy through the observer's world.You might think I'm making this all up, but read the references I've mentioned above, or better yet, as Jed McKenna likes to say "Come see for yourself".
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C. S. Morrison
Dear Bruno,
You wrote
'I believe in free-will, but in my opinion, indeterminacy would threaten it more than sustain it.'
How so? As far as I can see indeterminacy or unpredictability is a consequence of free will -though of course not exclusively. Unless all the freely choosing consciousnesses all choose to act in a predictable way you are going to get unpredictability. It is important to remember that this needn't be a bad thing for an organism's ability to act rationally but only in certain very special circumstances. The options from which the consciousness freely chooses must be suitably weighted by the brain via the qualia in which they appear in consciousness so that the consciousness is more likely to opt for more promising courses of action. The reason this situation is better than the brain just choosing what we do all the time is that the brain doesn't always know what's best. By allowing a random choice (from its point of view) the members of a group of such free-willed creatures facing the same uncertain situation will try out different options at the same time.
You also said
'Even in a determinist reality, machines are confronted to many different form of indeterminacies, *from their points of view". That a god could predict what I will do does not throw away my free will. Like Hofstadter said once, we express often free-will by "I am determined to do this or that"
In my view, the passive structure here is merely a quirk of language. To me the saying really means 'I am determined BY MY OWN CHOICE to do this or that'. After all, it does not mean that I will succeed (which it ought to imply if it meant what Hofstadter is here claiming).
Anyway, I just can't go along with your argument here for semantic reasons. For me something has free will if it makes a choice between two or more options that is not fully determined by its internal state or situation. There has to be a free choice or it is not free will (at least the way I define it). You can have reasons for making the choice, desires and so on. But these must only make you more likely or less likely to choose particular options. If they determine what you choose such that if you were to rewind time and go through the situation again you would always make the same choice, then you do not have free will (as I define it).
You also said
'If you act to avoid a pain, you don't act freely, they would say. I disagree with them, but it is tricky to convince them.
I'm glad we agree on something. As I have said, if you would always act to avoid the pain in exactly the same situation (with exactly the same memories etc) then they would be right in my opinion. However, I don't think we would. I think the intensity of pain makes us more likely to make certain choices and less likely to make others, but I do not think it fully determines what we do. That is why we accept that William Wallace could possibly have defiantly shouted "FREEDOM!" despite the agony of his torture, and Jesus Christ might genuinely have refused the anaesthetic offered him on the cross.
Best wishes,
Colin
C. S. Morrison - Author of THE BLIND MINDMAKER: Explaining Consciousness without Magic or Misrepresentation.
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Mindmaker-Explaining-Consciousness-Misrepresentation/dp/1541283953
>>
>> On 30 Jul 2017 21:21, Whit Blauvelt <wh...@csmind.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 05:39:29PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>> > I certainly do not believe in many theories of free-will, which I find quite
>> > absurd. But I think that *some* theory of free-will are compatible with the
>> > Mechanist Hypothesis (in cognitive science), which is my (biased) focus of
>> > interest.
>> >
>> > The willingness to relinquish this expression of free will (the illusion of
>> > control) is what leads to enlightenment.
>> >
>> > I am not sure. The willingness itself might be an handicap. That too needs to
>> > be relinquished ... without control.
>>
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>> Fifth International Conference
>> Science and Scientist - 2017
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>> Fifth International Conference
>> Science and Scientist - 2017
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------
> Fifth International Conference
> Science and Scientist - 2017
> August 18—19, 2017
> Nepal Pragya Pratisthan, Kathmandu, Nepal
> http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2017
>
> Send a Donation to Support Our Services: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
> (All Indian residents are eligible for tax benefits for their contributions under section 80G of the Income Tax Act)
>
> Report Archives: http://bviscs.org/reports
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> Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
>
> Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
>
> Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
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> Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
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> Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
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