Re: SAnkhya's astral, causal, and manifested worlds are the mental world within our mind-brain system

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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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Jul 11, 2017, 7:10:33 AM7/11/17
to VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Online Sadhu Sanga, Roy Sisir, Vivekanand Pandey Vimal
Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

Vimal: Why are the real reasons for rejecting the claim that Sāṅkhya's astral, causal, and manifested worlds are the mental world within our mind-brain system?

Sehgal: [1] Since these worlds have their own distinct structural ontological realities, as vividly observable in the state of Samadhi. Further, the mechanism by which Causal and Astral bodies/ worlds and their constituting elements and the physical world manifest from the Moola Prakriti also become observable and understandable in the state of Samaadhi. [2] Benchmark of reality is not located in the physical baryonic matter or brain. Benchmark of the reality has its locus in Moola Prakriti and Cosmic Consciousness. In the state of Samadhi, a Yogi can approach up to the level of the Moola Prakriti and Cosmic Consciousness and realize/observe these fundamental realities. All the physical world having the baryonic matter and brain is a derivative of the Moola Prakriti from the same sequential chain from which the causal and astral realms of nature manifest from the Moola Prakriti. Before the manifestation of the physical world, Astral reality appears. It is from the Astral realm that the physical realm manifests. I think I have adequately elaborated reasons for rejecting the Astral and Causal realities as being an extension of the mind-brain system as has been hypothesized in eDAM.

Vimal: [1] I argue that what a yogi observes is simply a subjective experience (SE) in our mind similar to the SE of wakeful conscious state or dream consciousness state, which has NCC. For example, (i) when the yogi experiences that there is the unification of subject and object, the discrimination between subject and object is lost because parietal lobe (responsible for this discrimination) is deactivated and frontal lobe (responsible for the unification) is activated more than the normal wakeful conscious state. (ii) It appears that the self is detached as in OBEs, but it is really an illusion because the self is still within the mind-brains system and must have NCC as per neuroscience. In OBEs, the "self" appears out of the body because of the abnormal activities in the areas responsible for keeping the "self" intact as in normal wakeful conscious state. [2] These are simply the misleading interpretation of dualistic Sāṅkhya, which has 9 serious problems that cannot be addressed. If you still persist then where are they (astral, causal, and manifested conscious worlds such as Svarga Loka (heaven), Naraka Loka (hell), Vishnu Loka, Shiva Loka, Brahm Loka, Goloka, and so on) located and the distance from earth? 

 
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools


On Monday, 10 July 2017 11:30 PM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:


Respected Dr.Ram,

Since these worlds have their own distinct structural ontological realities, as vividly observable in the state of Sammadhi. Further, the mechanism by which Causal and Astral bodies/ worlds  and their constituting elements and the physical world manifest from the Moola Prakriti   also become observable and understandable in the state of Samaadhi.

Benchmark of reality is not located in the physical baryonic matter or brain. Benchmark of the reality has its locus in Moola Prakriti  and Cosmic Consciousness. In the state of Samaadhi, a Yogi  can approach up to the level  of the Moola Prakriti  and Cosmic  Consciousness and realize/observe  these fundamental  realities. All the physical world  having the baryonic  matter and brain is a derivative of  the Moola Prakriti from the same sequential chain from which the causal and astral realms of nature manifest from the Moola Prakriti. Before the manifestation  of the physical world, Astral reality appears. It is from the Astral realm that the physical realm manifests.

I think, I have adequately elaborated reasons for rejecting the Astral and Causal realities ss being an extensions of the mind brain system as has been hypothesized in eDAM.

Any further clarification is welcome.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal


On Tuesday, July 11, 2017, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
> Dear Vinod ji,
> Why are the real reasons for rejecting the claim that SAnkhya's astral, causal, and manifested worlds are the mental world within our mind-brain system?
>  
> Kind regards,
> Rām
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
> Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
> Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
> 25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
> Ph: +1 978 954 7522; eFAX: +1 440 388 7907
> rlpv...@yahoo.co.in; http://sites.google.com/site/rlpvimal/Home
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ram_Lakhan_Pandey_Vimal 
> Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools


Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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Jul 11, 2017, 1:22:19 PM7/11/17
to VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Online Sadhu Sanga, Roy Sisir
Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

[1] Sehgal: Your above arguments are speculative one and not supported by the experiences in the state of Samadhi.
Vimal: My arguments are not speculative because it is based on neuroscience and there are many published articles in peer reviewed journals that show that subjective experiences (SEs) at Samādhi states have their NCC. They are also supported by the SEs at Samādhi states because whatever they “see” are nothing more than the SEs of yogis at SS/NS states.
 
[2] Sehgal: In the state of Samadhi, a Yogi can see his own brain and body internally in live condition with a fair degree of resolution.
Vimal: If this is true then still ‘seeing’ is an act of SE and has NCC.

[3] Sehgal: When the Yogi can withdraw his consciousness fully from the physical body and enter the SS state, he enters the astral reality. In the astral world, a Yogi can see the astral biology of the astral beings as we see the physical biological beings in the physical world. Please keep in mind that view of the Astral bodies in the astral world pertains to both those who are alive in the physical world (like you and me) and who have died (i.e. who have left the physical bodies.
Vimal: The feeling of “withdrawing” is a SE and “seeing” those entities is also SEs and has NCC. For example, if I close my eyes and imagine a building in air and vividly ‘see’ this mental (astral) entity is simply a SE and has NCC.
 
[4] Sehgal: A Yogi can observe all the elements of the Astral body (at the micro level) and the astral world (cosmological level) viz. Manas, Karmendriya, Jnanendriyas, Buddhi, Chitta, and Ahamkāra. A Yogi can approach the stage of the Moola Prakriti -- the primordial physicality and observe it.
Vimal: These observations are also SEs and have NCC. Astral world and its components and Moola Prakṛti are the interpretation of Sāṅkhya.
 
[5] Sehgal: A Yogi can observe the mechanism by which Different elements of the Astral body/world are being created out from the Moola Prakriti.
Vimal: The observations of the mechanism and of the “creation” of elements are also SEs and have NCC. The mechanism and the process of creation are the interpretation of Sāṅkhya and are illusion because when the yogi is out of Samadhi, all the creations disappear.
 
[6] Sehgal: A yogi, after withdrawing his consciousness completely from all 3 bodies/worlds viz Physical, Astral, and causal can approach the level of the cosmic consciousness and get himself established in that state which happens in the state of NS. It is at this stage that real subject/object dichotomy vanishes and not by the deactivation of the parietal lobe as indicated by you. In the deactivation of the parietal lobe, consciousness continues to reside in the physical body/brain but the physical mechanism which provides identity to our self-becomes defunct. This is not a state of Samadhi at all. Unless and until consciousness continues to reside in the Physical body/brain, this is not the state of Samadhi by any definition. In such state, consciousness will perceive any change happening in the body/brain as happening to it since it is identified with the body/brain. So a deactivation of the parietal lobe will create a feeling in consciousness as the loss of identity. However, once it gets over the physical body, it becomes immune from the changes in the physical body/brain till it remains withdrawn from the physical body/brain.
Vimal: The feeling of “withdrawing” is simply a SE. The separability of “conscious self” from brain-body is simply an interpretation of Sāṅkhya and is illusion because there is no evidence of separation.
 
[7] Sehgal: A yogi can observe the astral body of any dying person or who has already dead (and his physical body/brain burnt, direct his/her Astral body to take next birth at the desired place/family where his/her further spiritual advancement is facilitated.
Vimal: These observations are simply SEs. There is no evidence of rebirth and no evidence of the yogi’s direction. They are the interpretation of Sāṅkhya and are totally misleading.
 
[8] Sehgal: While established in the cosmic consciousness, a yogi can observe down all the 3 bodies and 3 worlds with as much distinctiveness, vividity, and clarity as you can see the houses, roads, and streets of your city Boston.
Vimal: These observations are simply SEs, which have NCC. There is no evidence that yogi can tell verifiable whereabouts of a person unknown to him/her.

[9] Sehgal: In the state of deep SS and NS, a Yogi will continue to observe the ontological realities of the Astral and Causal world even if the brain is cut and dismantled into 100 pieces. But then he (i.e. his consciousness) will never be able to return to the physical body since the physical body will die and consciousness and astral body never return to a dead body. However, in very exceptional circumstances a Yogi, by the power of his Sankalpa, can make the leftover Astral body return the dead physical body till it is not destroyed. A Yogi, with his physical body sitting in the posture of  Samadhi in a room, can take his astral body to any remote and secret place at his will and know about what is happening at that place.
Vimal: There is simply no evidence for your claims. The observations are SEs, which have NCC.
 
[10] Sehgal: A yogi, who has left the physical body, and placed in the cosmic consciousness or the astral world, can guide his disciples, who are still in the physical world, in their routine meditation. I think now I should stop, for the sake of brevity, to marshal out further evidence supporting the ontological reality of the Astral, causal bodies/worlds, as distinct from the physical body/brain.
Vimal: There is simply no evidence for your claims. The guidance in his disciples is from their memory and their mind-brain system.

[11] Sehgal: Spatially, there is no difference of even a micro cm between the Physical world and the astral world. They lie on the same sequential chain of the creation starting from the Moola Prakriti and terminating at the Physical […] Ontological realities of the Astral, Causal bodies/worlds and the cosmic consciousness are not the copyright of the Sāṅkhya Philosophy as propounded by Kapila Muni. A large no of non- Sāṅkhyian spiritual traditions has also described the trans-physical ontological realities of the inner worlds/bodies as transcendental to physical body/world. But every spiritual tradition has used different classification and terminology to describe the ontological realities of the inner worlds as transcendental to our physical world. For example, in the tradition of Guru Nanak Dev and subsequent 9 Gurus of Sikh religion ending at Guru Gobind Singhji Maharaj, in Gurbani, as enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib, there is the mention of Anda, Khanda and Brahmand corresponding to the Physical, Astral and Causal respectively.
Vimal: It seems that you are claiming that astral, causal, and manifested worlds are micro and submicro worlds and are inseparably continuum with the macro physical worlds. This is unclear and vague. (a) One interpretation may be that they are in continuum from macroscopic classical level to microscopic quantum level to sub-microscopic Planck level for physical, astral, causal and chetan (consciousness) worlds in continuum. (b) Other interpretation may be that astral, causal, and chetan (consciousness) worlds are mental worlds and physical world is our physical universe. (c) In all cases, all four worlds are within our infinite universe because there is nothing beyond it. Which one is correct (a) or (b)? Is (c) correct?
My query still remains: where are astral, causal, and 14 manifested consciousness worlds (such as Svarga loka, Naraka loka, etc.) located? Please describe in detail with authentic references without derogatory comments related to what science knows. You can do Google and Wikipedia search for references. This discussion is about Sāṅkhya and its evidence. Therefore, try your best to defend it. You also need to address rationally with evidence its 9 serious problems.
 
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools


On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 3:46 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:


Respected Dr. Ram,

Thanks

[1] I argue that what a yogi observes is simply a subjective experience (SE) in our mind similar to the SE of wakeful conscious state or dream consciousness state, which has NCC. For example, (i) when the yogi experiences that there is the unification of subject and object, the discrimination between subject and object is lost because parietal lobe (responsible for this discrimination) is deactivated and frontal lobe (responsible for the unification) is activated more than the normal wakeful conscious state. (ii) It appears that the self is detached as in OBEs, but it is really an illusion because the self is still within the mind-brains system and must have NCC as per neuroscience. In OBEs, the "self" appears out of the body because of the abnormal activities in the areas responsible for keeping the "self" intact as in normal wakeful conscious state.

Above arguments of your are speculative one and not supported by the experiences in the state of Samaadhi.

I) In the state of Samaadhi, a Yogi can see his own brain and body internally in live condition with a fair degree of resolution.

2) When the Yogi can withdraw his consciousness fully from the physical body and enter the SS state, he enters the Astral reality. In the astral world, a Yogi can see the Astral biologies of the Astral beings as we see the physical biological beings in the physical world. Please keep in mind that view of the Astral bodies in the Astral world pertains to both those who are alive in the physical world ( like you and me) and who have died ( i.e who have left the physical bodies.

3) A Yogi can observe all the elements of the Astral body ( at the micro level) and the Astral world  ( cosmological level) viz  Manas, Karmendriyaas, Jnanendriyaas, Buddhi, Chitta, and Ahamkara.

4) A Yogi can approach the stage of the Moola Prakriti -- the primordial physicality and observe it.

5) A Yogi can observe the mechanism by which Different elements of the Astral body/world are being created out from the Moola Prakriti.

6) A yogi, after withdrawing his consciousness completely from all 3 bodies/worlds viz Physical, Astral, and causal can approach the level of the cosmic consciousness and get himself established in that state which happens in the state of NS. It is at this stage that real subject/object dichotomy vanishes and not by the deactivation of the parietal lobe as indicated by you. In the deactivation of the parietal lobe, consciousness continues to reside in the physical body/brain but the physical mechanism which provides identity to our self-becomes defunct. This is not a state of samaadhi at all.

Unless and until consciousness continues to reside in the Physical body/brain, this is not the state of Samaadhi by any definition. In such state, consciousness will perceive any change happening in the body/brain as happening to it since it is identified with the body/brain. So a deactivation of the parietal lobe will create a feeling in consciousness as the loss of identity.

However, once it gets over the physical body, it becomes immune from the changes in the physical body/brain till it remains withdrawn from the physical body/brain.

7)  A yogi can observe the astral body of any dying person or who has already dead ( and his physical body/brain burnt, direct his/her Astral body to take next birth at the desired place/family where his/her further spiritual advancement is facilitated.

8) While established in the cosmic consciousness, a yogi can observe down all the 3 bodies and 3 worlds with as much distinctiveness, vividity, and clarity as you can see the houses, roads, and streets of your city Boston.

9) In the state of deep SS and NS, a Yogi will continue to observe the ontological realities of the Astral and Causal world even if the brain is cut and dismantled into 100 pieces. But then he( i.e his consciousness) will never be able to return to the physical body since the physical body will die and consciousness and astral body never return to a dead body. However, in very exceptional circumstances a Yogi, by the power of his Sankalap, can make the leftover Astral body return the dead physical body till it is not destroyed.

10) A Yogi, with his physical body sitting in the posture of  Samaadhi in a room, can take his astral body to any remote and secret place at his will and know about what is happening at that place.

11) A yogi, who has left the physical body, and placed in the cosmic consciousness or the Astral world can guide his disciples, who are still in the physical world, in their routine meditation.

I think now I should stop, for the sake of brevity, to marshal out further evidence supporting the ontological reality of the Astral. causal bodies/worlds, as distinct from the physical body/brain.



 [2] These are simply the misleading interpretation of dualistic Sāṅkhya, which has 9 serious problems that cannot be addressed. If you still persist then where are they (astral, causal, and manifested conscious worlds such as Svarga Loka (heaven), Naraka Loka (hell), Vishnu Loka, Shiva Loka, Brahm Loka, Goloka, and so on) located and the distance from earth? 

Each and every problem can be addressed provided you may approach the problem with the adequate open mind and discuss with me 1-2 problems at one time. 

Those who make the foolish questions as to how many miles  away from earth are the Astral worlds and causal worlds, as termed by different names have childish Buddhi and their  Buddhi is miles away from understanding these ontological realities of these realms of nature.

Spatially, there is no difference of even a micro cm. between the Physical world and the Astral world. They lie on the same sequential chain of the creation starting from the Moola Prakriti and terminating at the Physical world. It is a very very big continuum of nature with all the 3  worlds as being 3 broad stations on the continuum.

Cosmic consciousness --- Moola Prakriti  -- Mahat Gunas -- Causal World ( Ahmkaaras, Chitta)  --  Astral world ( Manas, Buddhi, Indriyaas (1) --   Physical world ( Pancha Bhuttas-- baryonic matter, 4 physical forces (2)

Current Physical Sciences -- Physics,  QM, Cosmology Neuroscience, biology are aware of the ontological reality up to the level as highlighted in the blue font text 2) above and completely unaware of the ontological reality of the nature before that as highlighted in green font text ( 1).

Unawareness of a large section of the physicality of nature and of the cosmic consciousness has led Physicists, Quantum Physicists and neuroscientists to struggle with the unique but fictitious problems as the mind-body problem, emergence of consciousness, conscious experiences ( qualia) and thought etc. Despite struggling for decades by a group of highly talented and devoted scientists, there is no end to the aforesaid problems notwithstanding proposing a no of innovative and sometimes even bizarre one models/theories.  Reasons for such failures lie in the facts that they are searching something at a place where it is not located. The cat is not in the room where we are searching the cat. But we are continuously hearing the mew mew noises of the cat. So definitely cat is here or there.

Physicsits/neuroscientists themselves have the consciousness, conscious self, minds and conscious "I-ness. This is coming in their experiences all the moment. As such, they can't deny the existence of these elements of the conscious domain despite the fact they have no empirical evidence of the same. But they are searching for the same at the wrong place viz in the Physical body/brain where it is not located. The irony is that Physicists/ Neurophysicists are unaware of the place where our conscious domain is located. Therefore, all the theories/models on mind, consciousness, though brought out with a lot of efforts of years, have inbuilt paradoxes.

______________________________ ______________________________ ____

I would like to clarify one more thing to you. Ontological realities of the Astral, Causal bodies/worlds and the cosmic consciousness are not the copyright of the Saankhya Philosophy as propounded by Kapila Muni. A large no of non-Saankhian spiritual traditions has also described the  trans-physical ontological realities of the inner worlds/bodies as transcendental to physical body/world. But every spiritual tradition has used different classification and terminology to describe the ontological realities of the inner worlds as transcendental to our physical world. For example, in the tradition of Guru Nanak Dev and subsequent 9 Gurus of Sikh religion ending at Guru Gobind Singhji Maharaj, in Guru Baani, as enshrined in Guru Granth Saheb, there is the mention of Anda, Khanda and Brahmand corresponding to the Physical, Astral and Causal respectively.

Now I want to stop as it is becoming too long which you may find it difficult to respond. 

With Regards.

Vinod  Sehgal 

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Vinod ji,

Vasavada, Kashyap V

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Jul 11, 2017, 5:01:40 PM7/11/17
to Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com

Dear Ram and Vinod,

I am reading your debate about Samadhi. I know TM has been scientifically studied and verified. Is there any scientific study  (medical, neurological etc. with instruments) of a Yogi who goes in and out of Samadhi? My frustration is that every time I ask someone, he says you cannot describe it! You have to experience it by yourself! Then it is difficult to do science in this area. Descriptions in books have limited validity. Science would not have progressed if people had to just read books by scientists and believe them. Real scientific advance takes place when any one can reproduce the results described in books!

Best Regards.

Kashyap

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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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Jul 11, 2017, 6:41:22 PM7/11/17
to Kashyap V. Vasavada, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Online Sadhu Sanga
Hi Kashyap,

I agree with you. We cannot take others' experiences for granted because NS state experiences are ineffable. Therefore, we have to attain SS/NS states to experience without any subjective biases (brain-wash by heavy training under a guru who usually follows Advaita/idealism or SAnkhya/dualism) with deep understanding of all 4 groups of metaphysics (including dual-aspect monism and materialism). Perhaps, mantra or breathing based techniques are free from biases. Then do research; we should then be subjects in fMRI/EEG experiments. So, let us starts meditation seriously.
 
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools


Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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Jul 12, 2017, 10:53:16 AM7/12/17
to VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Vasavada, Kashyap V, Online Sadhu Sanga, Vivekanand Pandey Vimal, Roy Sisir
Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

I agree with you that we should set our minds to our goals. Our goal should be to do research in unbiased manner for SS/NS states. We should not be selfish; instead, we should be interested being subjects in fMRI and EEG and other experiments. We should not be interested in Moksha at present time if it makes us uninterested in scientific research. This will hopefully lead to the unbiased fundamental truth. Then we will decide what to do next.
 
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools


On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 7:04 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:



Dr.  Ram wrote to Kashyap:

" I agree with you. We cannot take others' experiences for granted because NS state experiences are ineffable. Therefore, we have to attain SS/NS states to experience without any subjective biases (brain-wash by heavy training under a guru who usually follows Advaita/idealism or SAnkhya/dualism) with deep understanding of all 4 groups of metaphysics (including dual-aspect monism and materialism). Perhaps, mantra or breathing based techniques are free from biases. Then do research; we should then be subjects in fMRI/EEG experiments. So, let us starts meditation seriously.'

 For acquiring knowledge and pursuing research in any field, mindset specific to that area is required. If you want to pursue in poetry, mindset required for developing a model/theory in QM is of no use. Similarly, for pursuing research in the Astral, Causal Worlds and Cosmic Consciousness thru subjective methodology of the spiritual discipline and Samaadhi etc, a different specific mindset is required. For a normal mundane task, say crossing a river, you have no way out but to trust an illiterate  boatman ( but he is skilled in his task), so how one will cross the  ocean of the world and reach cosmic consciousness if one will not trust a fully realized Guru who himself has crossed the ocean and is capable of taking the disciple also across the ocean? Therefore a mindset of "not trusting" is not applicable in the areas of spirituality.

Neurobiological techniques of fMRI and EEG are of no use in the study/research of the state of samaadhi since

i)  a few people who have really achieved the state of Samaadhi are least inclined to becoming a subject in such studies. Their purpose is purely spiritual.  Just try and ask a Buddha or Aadi Shankaracharya of the modern age to be a subject in a neurobiological lab. Will he/she become a  subject? The overall purpose of such people is purely spiritual and the reality of the astral, causal world and cosmic consciousness is self-obvious to them and they don't need any certification from any objective experimentation.

ii)  Even if any of such person volunteer to come to a neurobiological lab for testing thru fMRI/EEG, neuroscientists will find Nothing in the brain of the state of Samaadhi, in which Astral/causal bodies and worlds are observed. Reasons? In the state of samaadhi, in which Astral body/World is observable, consciousness is almost completely  withdrawn from the physical body/brain, so  Astral Mind is decoupled from the  Physical brain. Consequently, no signal of any experience of the Astral body/world percolates down to the physical brain resulting in NIL built up of any neural correlates. So what the neuroscientsits will find from fMRI/EEG? NOTHING.

Regards.

Vinod Sehgal

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 2:50 AM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Hi Kashyap,

I agree with you. We cannot take others' experiences for granted because NS state experiences are ineffable. Therefore, we have to attain SS/NS states to experience without any subjective biases (brain-wash by heavy training under a guru who usually follows Advaita/idealism or SAnkhya/dualism) with deep understanding of all 4 groups of metaphysics (including dual-aspect monism and materialism). Perhaps, mantra or breathing based techniques are free from biases. Then do research; we should then be subjects in fMRI/EEG experiments. So, let us starts meditation seriously.
 
Kind regards,
Rām
------------------------------ ----------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 5:01 PM, "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:


Dear Ram and Vinod,
I am reading your debate about Samadhi. I know TM has been scientifically studied and verified. Is there any scientific study  (medical, neurological etc. with instruments) of a Yogi who goes in and out of Samadhi? My frustration is that every time I ask someone, he says you cannot describe it! You have to experience it by yourself! Then it is difficult to do science in this area. Descriptions in books have limited validity. Science would not have progressed if people had to just read books by scientists and believe them. Real scientific advance takes place when any one can reproduce the results described in books!
Best Regards.
Kashyap
 
Kind regards,
Rām
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Paul Werbos

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Jul 12, 2017, 5:08:54 PM7/12/17
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This is a fascinating and important debate.

A quick naive summary: are the astral, causal and cosmic experiences just states of the neural networks of the brain, or are they metaphysical phenomena surpassing all mathematics and physics?

There is a third possibility, that they are just states of a more complex and intelligent neural network, pervading at least the entire earth, but still within a natural mathematical cosmos.

Best ofnluck,  Paul

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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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Jul 13, 2017, 7:04:14 AM7/13/17
to Paul Werbos, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Online Sadhu Sanga, Vivekanand Pandey Vimal, Matters Of Mind, Kashyap V. Vasavada
Dear Paul,

Thanks for your interest.

I argue for the first option. The astral, causal and cosmic experiences are just the mental aspect of the states of the neural networks of a mind-brain system in the least problematic atheist eDAM foundational framework. Here, the unmanifested state of the primal entity (Brahman) is a dual-aspect state, but both physical and mental aspects are latent. Its physical aspect is Planck level ubiquitous unmanifested ZPF, and its inseparable mental aspect is unmanifested UPC (Universal Potential Consciousness). After Big Bang, they co-evolved, over 13.8 billion years, to our 3pp-physical aspect and 1pp-mental aspect of conscious states (including dream, wakeful, and Samādhi conscious states) of our mind-brain systems. The astral, causal and cosmic experiences are the mental aspect of related states of the neural networks of our mind-brain system. The inseparable physical aspect is the NN and its activities.

The second and/or third option might be true if a soul exists after death (no scientific evidence so far!), where theist eDAM may hold. In that case, the degree of manifestation of a state of a soul is very high and its inseparable physical aspect is latent. 
 
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools


Kind regards,
Rām
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/ 19420889.2015.1085138
 
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Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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Jul 13, 2017, 4:04:03 PM7/13/17
to Vasavada, Kashyap V, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Roy Sisir, Vivekanand Pandey Vimal, Matters Of Mind, George Weissmann, Rael Cahn, Paul Werbos
Dear Kashyap,

Thanks.

If yogis, who devote full time in meditation, attain SS/NS states and are ready to participate in Expts. 1-3,[i] then we can either reject dualistic Sāṅkhya, monistic Advaita, and theist eDAM (if we get negative results in Expts 1 and 2 and find NCC at NS state in Expt.3) or reject the atheist monistic eDAM (if we get positive results in Expts 1 and 2 and do not find NCC at NS state in Expt.3). Rejecting Sāṅkhya, Vedānta, and theist eDAM will also reject the life-after-death hypothesis. Whatever may be the result, it will certainly motivate many of us to replicate them and perhaps it may be a topic of research in the mainstream science.

[i] A working hypothesis and three experiments to test OOO-God theory

From Sections 3.8.13.5 of (Vimal, 2016b) and 3.19.10 of (Vimal, 2016c), the working hypothesis and the three experiments on OOO-God theory are given below. My working hypothesis is as follows:
No mental entity (such as astral body, causal body, soul/Self, or God) is beyond our mind-brain-body system. It appears beyond only through the incompleteness of our knowledge. For example, the knowledge related to the out-of-body experience (OBE) is incomplete. A complete knowledge must include the fact that an OBE has a neural basis. Thus, enlightened yogis, mystics, and people who propose life-after-death appear to disregard the knowledge related to neuroscience that all experiences, including OBEs at SS/NS states, have their respective neural basis and all mental entities are within the scope of mind-brain systems.
Experiences are subjective data; data are immortal if collected carefully, and hence they cannot be rejected. Therefore, whatever yogis experienced cannot be rejected. Only its interpretation can be questioned. We must differentiate data from their interpretations; otherwise, confusion will arise that will lead to wrong conclusions. The interpretation such as based on Sāṅkhya, Vedānta, and Buddhism has incomplete knowledge if knowledge from neuroscience is not included.

The above hypothesis related to OBEs can be tested. For example, three experiments can be proposed:
(I) Expt.1: Ask yogis to tell us what events are happening on specific days with randomly selected 100 people from many different countries.
(II) Expt.2: Inject anesthetics to yogis during NS-state and then, later on, ask yogis if they still experienced OBEs under deep anesthesia and/or
(III) Expt.3: Measure the neural correlates of OBEs by using fMRI/EEG or more sensitive techniques that can measure the neural basis of such very strong OBEs at SS/NS states.
If results are positive in Expts. 1 and 2, then only we can claim that the Sāṅkhya-based OOO-God theory and the theist version of the eDAM are tenable. In other words, the theist eDAM can still interpret the data as follows: the degree of manifestation of the mental aspect of a state of soul, God, astral body, or causal body is very high and that of its inseparable physical aspect is latent. Thus, even in that case, the theist version of the eDAM cannot be rejected. However, the atheist version of the eDAM can be rejected.

If results are negative in Expts. 1 and 2, then the Sāṅkhya-based OOO-God theory and the theist version of the eDAM are rejected. However, the atheist version of the eDAM will hold.

If we are able to find a neural basis in Expt.3, then the Sāṅkhya-based OOO-God theory and the theist version of the eDAM are rejected. Alternatively, one can argue that techniques used were not sensitive enough to measure the neural basis and more sensitive technology needs to be developed.
 
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools


On Thursday, 13 July 2017 2:34 PM, "Vasavada, Kashyap V" <vasa...@iupui.edu> wrote:


Dear Ram and Vinod,
On this point I side with Ram. If Yogis do not care for scientific investigation, then of course in a democratic society we cannot do anything !!! But then who is losing? Not the atheistic scientists who think that all this talk about extrasensory world is a big nonsense, imaginary made up talk. The losers are people like us who know science and yet are interested in spirituality and extra-sensory world , assuming that there is such a thing as extrasensory world. I go on some physics blogs and I get involved with  exactly same argument. How do you know that when you go into Samadhi, your mind is not playing some tricks on you? One strong argument in their favor is that under the influence of psychedelic drugs, people have similar hallucinations. So if there are volunteers, such studies should be encouraged. Just reading some third parties’ account is never enough for science. As I mentioned before, science is not done by reading what somebody (even as great as Einstein) writes in his books, but by experimentation in which everyone can participate. Of course there is one big problem about subjectivity. If only the person doing the practice can realize, then  I do not know what can be done, except as Ram says scientist himself has to turn into Yogi. But that may be very uncommon. So the enigma remains.
Best Regards.
Kashyap
 
From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal [mailto:rlpv...@yahoo.co.in]
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 2:10 PM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Sāṅkhya and its evidence: Are astral, causal, and manifested worlds the mental world within our mind-brain system?
 
Dear Vinod ji,
 
If they are not interested, nothing we can do about. We need new scientist-cum-yogis who are also interested in being subjects and in doing the subjective-objective type research. 
 
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools
 
On Thursday, 13 July 2017 3:16 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Dr. Ram wrote:
 
"We should not be selfish; instead, we should be interested being subjects in fMRI and EEG and other experiments."
 
When the true state of Savikalpa Samaadhi ( SS) and Nirvikalpa Samaadhi(NS) shall be achieved, research thru fMRI and EEG shall become redundant. The mindset with which we are putting our arguments of selfishness/non-selfishness now will undergo an automatic change. There can be no one more self-less than a fully realized true Yogi/Sage who intends to  take back us to our true abode of cosmic consciousness. For this purpose, he lives with us, mingles with us, behaves like us, subjects him to all sort of worldly laws/bondages willingly despite being beyond such laws/bondages.
 
Vinod Sehgal
 
On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Vinod ji,
 
Thanks.
 
I agree with you that we should set our minds to our goals. Our goal should be to do research in unbiased manner for SS/NS states. We should not be selfish; instead, we should be interested being subjects in fMRI and EEG and other experiments. We should not be interested in Moksha at present time if it makes us uninterested in scientific research. This will hopefully lead to the unbiased fundamental truth. Then we will decide what to do next.
 
Kind regards,
Rām

Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal

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Jul 13, 2017, 4:04:03 PM7/13/17
to VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL, Vasavada, Kashyap V, Online Sadhu Sanga
Dear Vinod ji,

If they are not interested, nothing we can do about. We need new scientist-cum-yogis who are also interested in being subjects and in doing the subjective-objective type research. 
 
Kind regards,
Rām
----------------------------------------------------------
Rām Lakhan Pāndey Vimal, Ph.D.
Amarāvati-Hīrāmaṇi Professor (Research)
Vision Research Institute, Physics, Neuroscience, & Consciousness Research Dept.
25 Rita Street, Lowell, MA 01854 USA
Researched at University of Chicago and Harvard Medical Schools


On Thursday, 13 July 2017 3:16 AM, VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com> wrote:


Dr. Ram wrote:

"We should not be selfish; instead, we should be interested being subjects in fMRI and EEG and other experiments."

When the true state of Savikalpa Samaadhi ( SS) and Nirvikalpa Samaadhi(NS) shall be achieved, research thru fMRI and EEG shall become redundant. The mindset with which we are putting our arguments of selfishness/non-selfishness now will undergo an automatic change. There can be no one more self-less than a fully realized true Yogi/Sage who intends to  take back us to our true abode of cosmic consciousness. For this purpose, he lives with us, mingles with us, behaves like us, subjects him to all sort of worldly laws/bondages willingly despite being beyond such laws/bondages.

Vinod Sehgal

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
Dear Vinod ji,

Thanks.

I agree with you that we should set our minds to our goals. Our goal should be to do research in unbiased manner for SS/NS states. We should not be selfish; instead, we should be interested being subjects in fMRI and EEG and other experiments. We should not be interested in Moksha at present time if it makes us uninterested in scientific research. This will hopefully lead to the unbiased fundamental truth. Then we will decide what to do next.
 
Kind regards,
Rām

Vasavada, Kashyap V

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Jul 13, 2017, 4:04:03 PM7/13/17
to Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal, Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com

Dear Ram and Vinod,

On this point I side with Ram. If Yogis do not care for scientific investigation, then of course in a democratic society we cannot do anything !!! But then who is losing? Not the atheistic scientists who think that all this talk about extrasensory world is a big nonsense, imaginary made up talk. The losers are people like us who know science and yet are interested in spirituality and extra-sensory world , assuming that there is such a thing as extrasensory world. I go on some physics blogs and I get involved with  exactly same argument. How do you know that when you go into Samadhi, your mind is not playing some tricks on you? One strong argument in their favor is that under the influence of psychedelic drugs, people have similar hallucinations. So if there are volunteers, such studies should be encouraged. Just reading some third parties’ account is never enough for science. As I mentioned before, science is not done by reading what somebody (even as great as Einstein) writes in his books, but by experimentation in which everyone can participate. Of course there is one big problem about subjectivity. If only the person doing the practice can realize, then  I do not know what can be done, except as Ram says scientist himself has to turn into Yogi. But that may be very uncommon. So the enigma remains.

Best Regards.

Kashyap

 

From: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal [mailto:rlpv...@yahoo.co.in]

Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2017 2:10 PM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>

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