Re: from distraction back to actual psi
Alex Hankey
Roman certainly got Joe's goat here (on the "psi" thread!). Can we make lemonade out of the lemons of that exchange?On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:WRT Roman, pick one, any one. 😀Joe is certainly reminding us how Freud's view of actual human consciousness resonates with the empirical reality a lot better than an unspecified assemblage of polaritons does. This is not a minor aspect of what we need to cope with (or even of the grand problems of the world as we see them unfold on CNN). (Since Roman does not believe in psi, and has already stated that, I hope he chooses not to post again on this thread, even if the results have at times been entertaining.)I immediately think of a story which ALMOST happened, drawing together things which did.Picture a large comfortable room, full of people at high levels seriously dedicated to strengthening their psi/spiritual skills in a benign way. As that implies, there is a mix of males and females. One young woman expresses how proud she is that she has finally mastered what Pete Sanders suggests in his book... expanding her awareness and stimulating her auditory cortex, to hear the thoughts of others, and also sense the feelings which goes with them. As she sits calmly to demonstrate, the cloud of her awareness grows... and then... as it reaches the males in the audience, her eyes pop open in total horrified shock. That's what authenticity can do sometimes. Reaching out to the whole earth is much worse than that, full as it is of sheer craziness, violence, etc.How to cope with THAT?First, we do have to learn to adapt to reality here, and not be shaken by it. Learning not to be freaked out (or turned on) by Freud, Jung or even (God help us) Adler is part of that.Second... I again recommend Annie Besant's book Thought Forms, and Valliant's longitudinal study of Harvard graduates. It turns out that "making lemons into lemonade" is one of the very important practical techniques for maintaining sanity, benevolence and effectiveness in the face of ever more challenging stressors.Third... Valliant mentions "postponement." That is an important defense mechanism, but tricky. It is a matter of constantly gauging what we can cope with in a positive way, on what kind of schedule. How to build new connections constructively is a very large practical challenge.. in that space... of central importance to the spiritual work of this century.Best of luck,Paul
Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,
SVYASA, Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle
Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India
Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195
Paul Werbos
Miriam Rothschild, the famous former Chairman of the British Entomological Society once observed to me that she knew why telepathy did not exist: Because anyone who continuously knew all the thoughts of others would be so deeply stressed and outraged by what they were picking up. Others thinking derogatory thoughts about them etc. I responded that that is why those who develop such powers are only given them when they have first developed levels of compassion and understanding of the human condition necessary to tolerate such outrages. She immediately responded that she had not thought of that.From my side, I have once or twice sat in a meeting with His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, my teacher, during which I had a thought of considerable value, relevant to the discussion, and listened to him repeat the ideas contained in it very soon after I had the thought. Please Note: there is no proof of the direction of transmission of the ideas - either of us might have had the thought first, or else it might have arisen simultaneously in both our minds. BUT Something was Definitely Occurring.
Kushal Shah
Because anyone who continuously knew all the thoughts of others would be so deeply stressed and outraged by what they were picking up. Others thinking derogatory thoughts about them etc.
From my side, I have once or twice sat in a meeting with His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, my teacher, during which I had a thought of considerable value, relevant to the discussion, and listened to him repeat the ideas contained in it very soon after I had the thought. Please Note: there is no proof of the direction of transmission of the ideas - either of us might have had the thought first, or else it might have arisen simultaneously in both our minds. BUT Something was Definitely Occurring.
Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
Serge Patlavskiy
From: Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com>
To: Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com>
Cc: "online_sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 4:34 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: from distraction back to actual psi
Kushal Shah
Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
http://home.iiserb.ac.in/~kushals
Cc: "online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com>; Joseph McCard <joseph....@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 4:34 PM
Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: from distraction back to actual psi
On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 12:52 AM, Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com> wrote:Miriam Rothschild, the famous former Chairman of the British Entomological Society once observed to me that she knew why telepathy did not exist: Because anyone who continuously knew all the thoughts of others would be so deeply stressed and outraged by what they were picking up. Others thinking derogatory thoughts about them etc. I responded that that is why those who develop such powers are only given them when they have first developed levels of compassion and understanding of the human condition necessary to tolerate such outrages. She immediately responded that she had not thought of that.From my side, I have once or twice sat in a meeting with His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, my teacher, during which I had a thought of considerable value, relevant to the discussion, and listened to him repeat the ideas contained in it very soon after I had the thought. Please Note: there is no proof of the direction of transmission of the ideas - either of us might have had the thought first, or else it might have arisen simultaneously in both our minds. BUT Something was Definitely Occurring.Thank you very much, Alex, not only for the information but also the quality of the thought.Though I tend to question everything, I immediately sense that what you say is 100% authentic here, and I have no doubt about it.Immediately I realize I owe the Vedanta Society people a story somewhat similar.In the school year 1968-1969, I met a group of about eight students from India in the Applied Mathematics and the Engineering program, working for the PhD at Harvard, who told me they were the Vedanta Society group. They even had group vegetarian dinners in the small, austere common room of my dormitory, and I got to know them. With two of the eight, I had the same kind of experience you described above. One of the two was called "Mani Subramanian," and perhaps he was even what some lf the folks here call a rishi. (I don't know, but everyone else revered him. He later returned to India, worked in aerospace, but died suddenly; the group established a scholarship in his name, and honored him as best they could.)I remember very distinctly the day (in that school year) I had a new (outrageous and different out of the box) idea about how to use remote sensing to benefit agriculture, and started to type a letter on Harvard letterhead about it on my old rickety typewriter. When I was about halfway through, I had to go down the long cold corridor of the dorm to go to the bathroom on the far side, and as I walked Mani came up and walked by me. "That is a very interesting idea. We could use ... " I had said nothing to anyone. It was a new idea. I had no roommate, and my room was locked. Even if there had been cameras and microphones in my room, it would be unlikely they could pick up anything, unless a high powered camera were focused directly on the typewriter. Someone like Roman might immediately assume that Mani must be a CIA agent, but I knew Mani enough that I doubted it. Only in 1967 was I 50-50 open-minded enough about psi to really pay attention; this was one of the data points which pushed my "inner Bayesian convolution" to where it went eventually, to >99%.Best regards,Paul_________________________________________
From: Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 5:19 PMSubject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: from distraction back to actual psiOn Jan 27, 2018 3:03 PM, "Alex Hankey" <alexh...@gmail.com> wrote:Because anyone who continuously knew all the thoughts of others would be so deeply stressed and outraged by what they were picking up. Others thinking derogatory thoughts about them etc.That's actually true! This is why many people who develop these powers loose track of the spiritual process. And most genuine Gurus strictly tell their disciples to avoid such powers and surrender them as soon as they arise. Even most enlightened Gurus who have these powers are extremely careful and selective in using them.From my side, I have once or twice sat in a meeting with His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, my teacher, during which I had a thought of considerable value, relevant to the discussion, and listened to him repeat the ideas contained in it very soon after I had the thought. Please Note: there is no proof of the direction of transmission of the ideas - either of us might have had the thought first, or else it might have arisen simultaneously in both our minds. BUT Something was Definitely Occurring.Yes, that is a very common occurrence with many people. Not just with teacher-disciple, we find this even with our close relatives, friends and even scientific collaborators. When we share the same space with people we connect with emotionally or intellectually, a certain kind of spontaneous resonance can happen which leads to similar thoughts or even the same words coming out of the mouths of two different people.I am not sure if a scientific explanation of these phenomenon is going to be possible, but it will be a great achievement if we can conclusively demonstrate that there is a non-physical dimension of this universe beyond the reach of objective measurement tools. We should perhaps also not expect the larger scientific community to accept such things. But can we at least convince ourselves and those who are willing to consider these possibilities?Best,Kushal._________________________________________Kushal Shah @ EECS Dept, IISER Bhopal
Rajendra Bajpai
I would like to share some selected incidents involving psi
- I met late Vimala Thakkar( Indian) only once with his disciple. She had been the president of theosophical society and was spiritual. She agreed to talk about consciousness. We talked for nearly an hour and she replied to many questions that came to my mind but before I uttered these questions. She was talking about individual consciousness field of both living and non-living systems. I was sceptic about the consciousness in non-living systems. The interview came to an end because I lost my concentration and start thinking something else. She immediately sensed it and bade good bye. She also said that we may further discuss it IF we meet in future. We could not meet again.
- I spent nearly a month with an Italian healer Renzo Celani. We were interested to find some measurable effects of psi. I performed similar investigations with many other healers as well. I am mentioning Renzo because of his involvements in many experiments.
a. I measured spontaneous photon emission from his hands on many days also during his healing sessions. His emission was well coordinated. The photo count distribution corresponded to the emission in squeezed state. It was measured by squeezed state index (SSI) to be nearly 1 in most measurements. The SSI of a patient was around 0.5 before the healing done in the dark room with mental processes by Renzo. During the healing SSI of the patient increased to 0.85 and just after the healing the SSI of Renzo came down to around 0.65. A few hours after the healing, SSI of Renzo came back to 1 and of the patient to around 0.5. I requested Renzo to repeat the healing session with a healthy person but no change in SSI occurred.
b. Renzo was talking about some connection with the patient and once offered be to connect with the Sun. A sensation passed through my body as if I received a shock of electric current and he immediately said that he is disconnecting me as I could not tolerate.
c. I requested him to change the background noise of a sensitive photo multiplier(PMT). I was measuring noise every 10ms and a single effort of Renzo in decreasing background noise continued, at least, for few seconds . Renzo continued his efforts for two minutes. He repeated the experiment for a few times. A large dip did appear in some measurement of 10ms during the efforts of 2min. I could not discover any systematic pattern in the dips and further the dips could be from statistical variations. Something like black swan events.
d. Renzo was also talking about some radiation/field emitted by material specific to species of the material. Renzo could identify the material from its radiation. The radiation emitted from a sample was enhanced if the sample was exposed to light for a few seconds. We tested the capability of Renzo in a sample chamber with 16 rotating sample holders. I put material in 16 sample holders and kept one holder empty. Alex Popp put these samples inside the chamber in some order, which he did not disclose. So nobody knew the contents of the sample holders. Each sample was exposed to white light for 10s and then no measurement was made of the delayed luminescence of the sample. The sample chamber was metallic and thick and did not allow any light or electric field emitted by the sample to come out. Even then, Renzo perceived the radiation from each sample but we did not. Renzo correctly identified 12 samples. He correctly identified the empty sample holder and samples of non-living material. - I measured the effect of blessing /healing on a lichen sample by Romanian healer and on leaves by an Indian healer.
Rajendra Bajpai
From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [mailto:online_sa...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kushal Shah
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2018 8:15 PM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: from distraction back to actual psi
On Jan 27, 2018 3:03 PM, "Alex Hankey" <alexh...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Kushal Shah
-
Kushal Shah <atma...@gmail.com> on Jan 28, 2018 wrote:>...please share the details once again since it's difficult to locate earlier>emails on other threads..[S.P.] A student enters an auditorium and asks a professor: "What your lectures are about?". The professor replies: "On my lectures we are studying the differential equations for three months already". The student exclaims: "Wow! It is exactly what I need. So, may I ask you to start your lectures from the beginning?". So, you ask me to repeat the ideas I have been expressing for the last two years on this forum, yes? :-)
[Kushal Shah] wrote:>Do you also propose a scientific experiment which can verify the proposed> theory? This is an essential requirement..[S.P.] OK, see my reply to Alex Hankey on Jan 24, 2018 where I conclude: "Also, being based on the already constructed version of the theory of consciousness I may plan more experiments to test such or other conclusion or prediction which follows from my theory of consciousness, thereby testing its explanatory and predictive power." (my full post is attached below)..See attached also my reply to Ram Vimal on Jan 22, 2018 where I suggest my theory-laden mechanisms of psi-phenomena.
Vasavada, Kashyap V
Dear Bajpaiji , Vinodji and all interested,
Discussions of consciousness and CC are very interesting. However as a physicist let me point out that we are all searching in darkness. Earth is just a little tiny planet in a universe with billions of galaxies each with billions of stars and planets. We do not know if there is life elsewhere and more importantly what kind of life it is. We do not even know how far down consciousness goes in the tree of life. In fact ,inert matter could have some small degree of consciousness. Then to assume that consciousness requires a brain sitting in a body made out of organic material which looks like human being is naïve and silly at best! So such issues need complete open mindedness.
Best Regards.
kashyap
From: Rajendra Bajpai [mailto:rpba...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 2:35 AM
To: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL <vinodse...@gmail.com>
Cc: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal <rlpv...@yahoo.co.in>; Vasavada, Kashyap V <vasa...@iupui.edu>; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal <vvima...@gmail.com>; Paul Werbos <paul....@gmail.com>; Stanley A. KLEIN <skl...@berkeley.edu>; Alex Hankey <alexh...@gmail.com>;
Robert Boyer <rw.b...@yahoo.com>; Sungchul Ji <sji.co...@gmail.com>; sisir roy <sisir.s...@gmail.com>; Siegfried Bleher <sbl...@msn.com>; BVKSastry(Gmail) <sastr...@gmail.com>; Murty Hari <murty...@yahoo.com>; BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com>;
From the Chief Editor, J. Integr. Neurosci., IOS Press <pozn...@biomedical.utm.my>; George Weissmann <georg...@aol.com>; G Srinivasan <gsva...@gmail.com>; Prateek Budhwar <p.bu...@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: from distraction back to actual psi
Dear Vinod ji,
Consciousness is an enigma. You enhance its enigmatic value by suggesting another layer ,cosmic consciousness (CC), to it. The properties of CC mentioned in your mail raise disturbing questions. Some questions are given below:
- If CC is ubiquitous like space, then do it and manifested version have date of birth and in particular, do they precede, synchronize with, or follow the Big Bang singularity?
Since the manifestation of CC requires organic matter of requisite specification, the organic matter has some special status. Who confers the special status? Is there any criterion in selecting the matter for special status? Why and How and related questions? Special status is emblemishing or adding Prapanch(प्रपंच ) to CC.
- What type of information about CC is contained in entities manifesting CC? Do different entities contain different aspects or amounts of information? Does it has any resemblance to spontaneous breakdown of symmetry?
- Why many properties of the entities manifesting CC are not coupled with CC? Is the influence of CC limited to only a few properties? Can we identify these properties?
- Do you have any specific objections if we envisage that the role of CC is restricted only to measuring processes as proposed by Henry Stapp? It will allow the manifestation of CC even in non-organic measuring instruments.
Finally, I noticed that you live in Noida and myself in Gurugram, can we meet to discuss these issues. My mobile: +91 8373970360
Rajendra Bajpai
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 6:00 PM
To: Rajendra Bajpai
Cc: Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal;
Vasavada, Kashyap V; Vivekanand Pandey Vimal;
Paul Werbos;
Stanley A. KLEIN; Alex Hankey;
Robert Boyer; Sungchul Ji;
sisir roy; Siegfried Bleher;
BVKSastry(Gmail); Murty Hari;
BT APJ; From the Chief Editor, J. Integr. Neurosci., IOS Press;
George Weissmann;
G Srinivasan; Prateek Budhwar
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: from distraction back to actual psi
Dear Bajpaiji,
The way space is ubiquitous present in all entities similarly consciousness in its cosmic consciousness (CC) form is ubiquitous and present in all entities. However, despite being ubiquitous, consciousness from CC does not get identified with and manifests to the inert entities. For identification and manifestation to any entity, it should have the organic matter of some requisite specifications. It is on account of this that consciousness manifests and identifies with living organisms having the organic matter of required specification and arranged in some special configuration. In view of this, it is not correct to say that inert entities have the consciousness.
Vinod Sehgal
Noida
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Online_Sadhu_Sanga/000d01d39850%24ac4d5070%2404e7f150%24%40gmail.com.
Stephen Jarosek
KASHYAP >”Earth is just a little tiny planet in a universe with billions of galaxies each with billions of stars and planets. We do not know if there is life elsewhere…”
I’m not sure why the question of whether there is life elsewhere is such a mystery. I’m going to stick my neck out and suggest that it’s almost a certainty, and that it is scientific to accept this as the null hypothesis. May we place the burden of proof on the eccentrics among us to prove this sensible assumption wrong. Why do I accept life throughout as the given? Here be some reasons:
1) Evidence seems to suggest that the same dumb dirt that exists on Planet Earth exists elsewhere throughout the universe (e.g., spectral analyses);
2) Complexity not only exists on Planet Earth but it persists across time. It is this persistence across time that suggests a reconciliation with the laws of physics and entropy… that there is something about the properties of life and the dumb dirt that comprises its chemistry that suggests a predisposition to life wherever the conditions are right;
3) The life-crucial properties of dumb dirt are complex and precise. Dumb dirt is actually very smart, and it seems inconceivable to me how a dumb-luck universe can even be taken seriously;
4) In other words, the predispositions that exist here are likely to exist elsewhere throughout the universe.
I accept that this contention is, given current technologies, unverifiable and unfalsifiable. But isn’t it self-evident that life as the given should be the default… the null hypothesis… until proven otherwise? Christopher Columbus was probably not surprised to find life when he first set foot on American soil. So too, we should not be surprised at the manifestation of life wherever conditions are right.
Why is this important? The default null hypothesis is important because it changes the questions that we ask. No longer do we ask whether advanced civilizations are possible. Instead, when we take advanced civilizations as the default, we can gape in amazement at what the possibilities might be, and we can explore alternative technologies that might better equip us for making contact. The amount of time and money wasted with SETI, where instead it might better serve us to ask what technologies lay in wait, yet to be discovered. Also, by asking the right questions, we become better equipped to revisit our assumptions, for example, the nature of space and time.
So what might advanced civilizations be like? No, they’re not always going to be comprised of scientists in labcoats, professors in academia, democracy as we interpret it, a savior who died on a cross, and culture wars between the left and the right. Many of the possibilities are probably beyond our comprehension. By contrast, if we do not accept this null hypothesis… if we think in material terms and linear narratives, then we assume that advanced civilizations, if they exist, will be much like we are, and our field of view becomes considerably narrowed, and our philosophy and epistemology solipsistic and parochial. We might be paying a huge price for failing to properly designate our null hypothesis, with life as the pervasive default.
Regards, sj
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Rajendra Bajpai
Dear Kashyap ji,
Thanks for your suggestion but I am a little more hopeful, perhaps, because of my cultural baggage. The important ingredients of the baggage giving hope are
- Science that tells that a single human mind may not succeed in understanding CC but cumulative efforts of many minds over a long period of time will make significant progress. We have succeeded in discovering galaxies, stars and planets. We have learnt about the stuff( organic matter) and the recipe used in making us.
- Hindu Religious upbringing tells me that the knowing of CC is the ultimate goal of every human being and many persons did attain the goal.
- Physics background forces me to agree with Stapp. CC not only provides me with a unique outcome in the quantum world, but also prepares me to ask the questions. Perhaps, CC intends to become more comprehensible in the near future.
Finally, - Vastness of the universe has a very little in the incomprehensibility of CC. There is no need to be over-awed. CC is incomprehensible even in a small part of the universe.
Rajendra Bajpai
Stephen Jarosek
Regarding the properties of CC… I think that Charles Sanders Peirce, within the context of biosemiotics, is a great first place to start. Factoring in biosemiotics, his three categories (firstness, secondness and thirdness) can be shown to be relevant to all living entities. These three categories can be understood in the context of motivation, association (associative learning) and habituation. They apply to all living things, and it was the primary purpose of my 2001 Semiotica article (The law of association of habits) to draw attention to that proposition. The categories (understood with reference to motivation, association, habituation) provide the basis upon which any living entity “defines the things that matter” (pragmatism). The question is… can they also apply to matter and to ANY manifestation of CC? Peirce himself alluded to this when he described matter as “mind hide-bound in habit”.
Or, at the risk of appearing facetious, what associations might God be habituating to motivate Him to create life? Why does this matter to Him? Is there any such thing as not Being? Why does Being matter over Not-Being?
Regards
From: VINOD KUMAR SEHGAL [mailto:vinodse...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 6:28 AM
To: Vasavada, Kashyap V; Rajendra Bajpai; Stephen Jarosek; Dean Radin; Robert Boyer; Paul Werbos; Ram Lakhan Pandey Vimal; G Srinivasan; Prateek Budhwar; BVKSastry(Gmail); BT APJ; Asingh2384; Stanley A. KLEIN; Sungchul Ji; Murty Hari; sisir roy
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: from distraction back to actual psi
Dear Kashyapji, Bajapaiji, and Stephen,
Kashyap wrote:
" Discussions of consciousness and CC are very interesting. However as a physicist let me point out that we are all searching in darkness. Earth is just a little tiny planet in a universe with billions of galaxies each with billions of stars and planets. We do not know if there is life elsewhere and more importantly what kind of life it is. We do not even know how far down consciousness goes in the tree of life. In fact ,inert matter could have some small degree of consciousness. Then to assume that consciousness requires a brain sitting in a body made out of organic material which looks like human being is naïve and silly at best! So such issues need complete open mindedness."
Consciousness from ubiquitous CC does not go specifically in any discrete object the way ubiquitous space does not go specifically in any object. CC has been every where and across all periods of time ( in fact beyond space/time), therefore, already present in all the objects but it remains insulated from the majority of the objects. Since the vast majority of the matter in the universe is inorganic in nature, consciousness of CC does not manifest on such physical system. As the matter in only small parts of the universe evolves into complex organic compounds form, consciousness from CC manifests on such physical systems and life appears.
I think this is the complex organic compounds which SJ is referring to as the dirt. But life crucial properties are not only the outcome of dumb dirt as indicated by SJ in his following quote. Dumb dirt serves as the platform appropriate for the manifestation of CC.
"3) The life-crucial properties of dumb dirt are complex and precise. Dumb dirt is actually very smart, and it seems inconceivable to me how a dumb-luck universe can even be taken seriously;"
It will quite naive to assume that dumb dirt exists only on our earth, a very very small fraction of our unimaginably vast universe. Definitely, dumb dirt should be existing in many places in our universe not only during the present period but across many periods in past also. In view of this, CC, which existed even before the creation of the universe, should have been manifesting in the dumb dust at those places. From this one can infer that life, as we know at earth, should be existing at many places in the universe. Our inability to detect life with the present technomlogy does not dilute this argument since to assume that our present technology has pinnacled to detect all the corners of the universe will be the naive one. After all the time period of the present technology is only a few decades or centuries which is very very small fraction of the estimated age of the universe.
Vinod Sehgal