Robot killing in Dallas Case

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Vince Koloski

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Jul 8, 2016, 10:55:31 PM7/8/16
to Ipse Dixit
The whole story hasn't come out so this may be premature, but is anyone else troubled by the ending of the Dallas shooter tragedy?
The police apparently had the perpetrator trapped. They were talking to him or at least monitoring his communications. Rather than attempt to 
apprehend him (and I don't have an easy answer for that, gas? wait him out for exhaustion, dehydration etc?) they attached an explosive to a robot, sent it in and then detonated it.
Is this an extrajudicial killing?

A blogger I follow listed the following questions. I think they are worth pondering.
  • Was the suspect still an imminent danger?
  • Was it justified to use such kind of "drone strike" against him?
  • What if criminals resort to similar devices (relatively easy to build from RC toys)?
  • Was the remote connection to the "robot" secure or was it open to manipulations?
  • What are potential consequences when such remote killing machines will be used (as has now become likely) in everyday standoffs between police and this or that suspected criminal?
  • The use of drones in warfare has led to an increase in targeted strikes -in and outside of war zones- as the risk to own forces was reduced. Will police use of VBIEDs have similar effects?
  • Should the use of such means require a warrant? (I think there should be some sort of additional judicial level of authorization before this should be allowed).
Another thing banging around my head is that this is a not illogical result of the confluence of some societal currents. 
Increased surveillance via cellphone cameras and other CCTV cameras means a lot more video evidence of police harassment and violence against minority populations is not only available but increasingly present. (Cops need to be relentlessly trained and retrained to realize that NOTHING they do in public is not being recorded somewhere by someone or something and they must act accordingly)
Increasing numbers of minority group citizens are veterans who are trained in the effective use of firearms.
Significant numbers of veterans in general suffer from mental health issues, are unemployed or both.
We due a terrible job of both offering treatment for the former and job opportunities for the latter situations. 
We are the most well armed civilian population of any 1st world country (save possibly Switzerland?).
I don't think it is a large leap to think that someone in the middle of that confluence might come to the conclusion (deranged though it might be) that they are "mad as hell and not going to take it any more." and, given their training, be mightily effective in dealing out what they might consider justice or vengeance. 

I don't have any solutions, only questions. 

jack saunders

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Jul 9, 2016, 5:15:05 AM7/9/16
to Vince Koloski, Ipse Dixit
Agree with Vince.  There should be lots more questions to follow.  What about cases where law enforcement might be embarassed by something the perp would say in court?  In cases of chaos surrounding the stand-off, it would be tempting to send in the Terminator and end the investigation suddenly.
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Larry Rosenthal

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Jul 9, 2016, 9:54:17 AM7/9/16
to jack saunders, Vince Koloski, Ipse Dixit
Unimaginable such police action could ever be justified under prevailing use-of-force standards, against a lone shooter. That is, unless there were indisputable evidence at the time that he had at his disposal far more destructive means he was credibly threatening to detonate (say, a WMD device of some sort).

While it's perhaps that difficult to justify, the episode strikes me as far easier to explain.

Because, Texas.

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Craig Good

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Jul 9, 2016, 2:37:23 PM7/9/16
to Vince Koloski, Ipse Dixit

> On Jul 8, 2016, at 19:55 PM, Vince Koloski <vkst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The whole story hasn't come out so this may be premature,

It’s absolutely premature. I wouldn’t venture to even start forming an opinion for at least a week.



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Brian Howell

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Jul 13, 2016, 11:16:55 AM7/13/16
to Vince Koloski, Ipse Dixit
What if criminals resort to similar devices (relatively easy to build from RC toys)?



Was the remote connection to the "robot" secure or was it open to manipulations?

Show me a secure wireless connection and I'll sell you a nice bridge in Brooklyn for $5.00.
http://www.blogtyrant.com/the-man-who-sold-the-brooklyn-bridge-twice-a-week-for-30-years/
http://www.drchaos.com/breaking-wpa2-psk-with-kali-linux/

State of the art two years ago: (consider Moore's Law and surgent AI)
http://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/the-robots-being-used-by-police-to-help-capture-criminals/story-fn6vihic-1226946227332

And now, for Craig, some stuff to help him form his opinion. (It's been a week.)

Although potentially troubling, such use of automated systems seems inevitable. Once a decision has been made by police to authorize use of deadly force, all available systems and technologies are likely to be applied if they are viewed as offering the best prospects for ending the emergency with the least risk of injury to innocent parties.  That range of available technical options now routinely includes robots, drones, and other automated devices and systems, thus those technologies will most likely be increasingly in demand for use in emergency situations.

Concerns expressed by some that the Dallas action could lead to a “slippery slope” problem as police come to rely more and more on automated systems to deliver deadly force are legitimate. Robots, drones, and other automated systems will almost certainly be increasingly viewed as a preferred tactical option presenting the lowest risk of harm to police. The challenge will be to apply the automated systems only under those circumstances in which they also offer the lowest risk of harm to other innocent parties and the greatest chance of successfully ending the emergency situation.

It remains to be seen whether or not police use of automated devices and systems to deliver deadly force can be managed in a way which is consistent with civil liberties, public safety, and community outreach. The actions in Dallas suggest, however, that robots and other automated platforms are now fully embraced by law enforcement as viable weapons options.

Craig Good

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Jul 13, 2016, 2:21:15 PM7/13/16
to Brian Howell, Vince Koloski, Ipse Dixit

> On Jul 13, 2016, at 08:16 AM, Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And now, for Craig, some stuff to help him form his opinion. (It's been a week.)


I still haven’t read enough about the tactical situation in Dallas to form an opinion. But I meant an opinion about this case. The only question that matters in my mind is whether or not lethal force is appropriate and justified. The choice of weapon is orthogonal, assuming that it can be sufficiently discriminate. (In other words, it has to have a high likelihood of taking out only the bad guy.)

It’s still plausible to me that lethal force was appropriate in this case. It could take quite a while to get enough reliable information to form a solid opinion. First reports should always be ignored.

FWIW, an excellent war correspondent I’ve followed for years, Michal Yon, said that this technique has already been in use, secretly, by both Israel and the U.S. for years. This is likely the first domestic, police-related use, though.



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