Now I become Death, the destroyer of worlds.

[Brian Howell]

Today marks the 70th anniversary of a seminal event in world history, one which changed the course of humanity forever. At 05:29:21 MWT (+/- 2 seconds), the world's first atomic bomb was detonated at what is now called Trinity Site in Alamogordo, New Mexico. And the Earth—not just humanity—entered the Age of Nuclear Warfare. The quote in the subject line is attributed to Robert J. Oppenheimer, leader of the Manhattan Project, during his observation of that first nuclear explosion.

That one event triggered Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Cold War, the START, SALT, and NTB treaties, and the proliferation of nuclear weapons and concomitant of the growth nuclear club (eight countries have successfully detonated nuclear weapons). The largely unsatisfying negotiations with Iran are a consequence as well, of course. 

The genie is forever out of his bottle and the nuclear threat continues to grow.

[jack saunders]

As I once observed to the news media outside the Livermore Lab where I was employed as the spokesman, the protesters outside the gate were there because they feared nuclear war and they were trying to stop it.  The lab people inside were there because they, too, feared nuclear war, and were trying to stop it.  Here's a recent Times clip showing how they do that stuff.  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/16/world/middleeast/clearing-hurdles-to-iran-nuclear-deal-with-standoffs-shouts-and-compromise.html?_r=0

The secretary of energy (the head Lab man) literally calculated his way around obstacles to the new accord -- I mean literally chalkboard calculations in the meeting room -- which preserved at least a chance this thing can be resolved without gun play.  To the protesters, it looks like more govt flim flam.  Why can't we all just ban these things and walk away to make plowshares?  Because it's.....complicated.  Very complicated. 

---

From: Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>
To: Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:49 AM
Subject: [Ipse Dixit] Now I become Death, the destroyer of worlds.

Today marks the 70th anniversary of a seminal event in world history, one which changed the course of humanity forever. At 05:29:21 MWT (+/- 2 seconds), the world's first atomic bomb was detonated at what is now called Trinity Site in Alamogordo, New Mexico. And the Earth—not just humanity—entered the Age of Nuclear Warfare. The quote in the subject line is attributed to Robert J. Oppenheimer, leader of the Manhattan Project, during his observation of that first nuclear explosion.

That one event triggered Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Cold War, the START, SALT, and NTB treaties, and the proliferation of nuclear weapons and concomitant of the growth nuclear club (eight countries have successfully detonated nuclear weapons). The largely unsatisfying negotiations with Iran are a consequence as well, of course. 

The genie is forever out of his bottle and the nuclear threat continues to grow.

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[jack saunders]

My favorite chilling anecdote from Lab lore: 

The Times asked Robert Oppenheimer as all gazed on the fireball at Alamogordo, what was meant by the event code name "Trinity".

Oppenheimer muttered serenely:  "East.  West.  And I."

The man was said to have had a substantial ego.

 

---

From: Brian Howell <bdho...@gmail.com>
To: Ipse-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:49 AM
Subject: [Ipse Dixit] Now I become Death, the destroyer of worlds.

Today marks the 70th anniversary of a seminal event in world history, one which changed the course of humanity forever. At 05:29:21 MWT (+/- 2 seconds), the world's first atomic bomb was detonated at what is now called Trinity Site in Alamogordo, New Mexico. And the Earth—not just humanity—entered the Age of Nuclear Warfare. The quote in the subject line is attributed to Robert J. Oppenheimer, leader of the Manhattan Project, during his observation of that first nuclear explosion.

That one event triggered Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Cold War, the START, SALT, and NTB treaties, and the proliferation of nuclear weapons and concomitant of the growth nuclear club (eight countries have successfully detonated nuclear weapons). The largely unsatisfying negotiations with Iran are a consequence as well, of course. 

The genie is forever out of his bottle and the nuclear threat continues to grow.

[Scott Hotes]

I have no doubt it is complicated.

I would argue one important strategy is to separate the people responsible for

creating the weapons from those responsible for deciding if/how they should be used.

It's noble that Oppenheimer deeply regretted what he had helped create after the

fact, but there were many that were quite aware of what was happening, and 

made public warnings to that effect (Einstein for one, 6 years before this historic

event.)  As you say, Oppenheimer was known to have a big ego.  This wasn't the

first time he quoted from the Bhagavad Gita.  But what would you expect?  He was

a genius, separated intellectually from those around him.  Teller is another

useful case.

Nuclear war protesters played an important role.  If nothing else they were one

voice of sanity in a world apparently hell bent on destroying itself.  I'm not sure

you give them proper credit here.  Many of them were prominent scientists, yes,

maybe there were some C students out there, but they had their share of

Valedictorians out there too... :)

Scott

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/Ipse-dixit/2124957507.2322751.1437071662198.JavaMail.yahoo%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Jack Saunders]

I do credit the anti-nuke advocates, many of whom I befriended from so many rounds on the debate circuit.  Livermore's main mission by the 1970s was to keep the game unwinnable...as a technical matter -- a mathematically demonstrable loser for whoever moved first.  In this age of ISIS, I shudder at our confidence in the rationality of all players.  There were kibitzers like teller and Herman Kahn that should have scared us, but they were thought to be provocateurs more than serious policy advisers.

[Scott Hotes]

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Jack Saunders <Jack...@pacbell.net> wrote:

Livermore's main mission by the 1970s was to keep the game unwinnable...as a technical matter -- a mathematically demonstrable loser for whoever moved first.  In this age of ISIS, I shudder at our confidence in the rationality of all players.

Thanks Jack, makes sense.  I shudder too, maybe we've moved on from this way of thinking?  Math is not always the strong suit of power-hungry dictators...!

Scott