More on China

[Vince Koloski]

Interesting article on what the Chinese are attempting to do with their social credit system.

Describes it with some historical perspective and content and without the western hysteria over erosion of privacy etc.

http://www.unz.com/article/social-credit-datong-dreams/

I share Mr. Fisher's wonder about surviving driving with David Howell. After reading his history with vehicles, I am not sure about ever riding with him again...

Vince

[jack saunders]

Last night I heard from a well-informed source, the chair of the Atlantic Council, that Chinese dating web sites must prominently feature each person’s social credit score.  Think about it.  What does courtship become when the parties may longer choose the set of facts that will represent them, and the facts that remain hidden?  More like selective breeding?

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[vince koloski]

Jack,

You seem to be making a jump from one required piece of information on a dating site (in addition to all the other info that prospects include) to government dictating all the facts that you can and cannot include in your personal description. Courtship might be improved if you knew whether the individual you were meeting for the first time got along well or poorly in your society. If the number were low, you could still satisfy you desire for a bad boy or girl. 

My understanding of the process of Social Credit is that it is about your behaviour, not about your intelligence, physical abilities, appearance, extroversion, introversion etc. Absent those items, I am not sure where you come up with selective breeding.

Vince

Vince Koloski 415-822-8194

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[jack saunders]

Any authoritative measure of compliance or conformity will bear on courting outcomes.  As you suggest, some may be looking for a “walk on the wild side,” but the Chinese authorities understand all that very well.  They can guide their outliers into an ineffectuals bucket and feel a well satisfied.  They know their market well.  As a graduate student of mine tearfully quoted his girlfriend, “I would rather cry in the back of a Lexus than laugh on the back of your bicycle.”  They know exactly how their sites need to work.  “Romance with Chinese characteristics.”

[vince koloski]

All well and good but that does not support your original statement parties may no longer choose which facts represent them. The inclusion of the data point of the Social Credit score within the totality of the facts you present about yourself is not the same as the government dictating which facts you can use to represent yourself.

 It is interesting that you state that authoritative measures of compliance or conformity bear on courting outcomes. Of course they do. Look at any of the subgroups within Bay Area culture. They all have their defining social identifiers which govern courting behaviour so as to make sure you know you are dating within your clade. The fact that the enforcement of compliance and conformity comes from within the group can be a more powerful force than any external one and can insure that you reproduce within your subgroup. 

The fact that the Chinese demand you state the score that reveals how well you function in the greater society on your dating profile serves to supply potential mates with additional data about you but certainly does not guarantee attraction. Again, I am not sure how this ends up in any more selective breeding than other cultures or at all. It is certainly more open about general social characteristics.

Vince

Vince Koloski 415-822-8194

[Scott Hotes]

Vince, I think you may be being short-sited about what is happening here with China's "social score", and

the overall move to what the NY Times refers to as a "surveillance state".

China has a dark history or cracking down on dissidents.  It is now clear that they are investing heavily

in leveraging technology in this effort.  See for example this reference, relating to mobile communication

surveillance (note the use of the phrase "stability maintenance", which to me is utterly chilling):
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/monitor-09252017130257.html

 

Surveillance, and it's associated "social score" is being used to do much more than simply reduce the

occurrence of petty crimes.  This is not "western hysteria".  As another example, consider this post (try

using Google Translate to translate the text):

https://www.creditchina.gov.cn/lianhejiangcheng/lianhejiangchenganliguiji/lianhejiangchengbuwei/201805/t20180509_115160.html

Here is one telling excerpt:
"The fourth is to explore innovative law enforcement methods. Give full play to the effectiveness of credit supervision, explore the establishment of a "blacklist" of responsible persons of illegal social organizations, limit the qualifications of its founding and the head of social organizations, and strengthen the role of credit restraint."

Scott

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[jack saunders]

Scott and Vince — fascinating conversation that reveals how the two cultures differ so widely.  The key point for me is that none of these surveillance and control measures are taken as scandals in China.  Th3 Social Credit system is wildly popular.....and therefore hyped shamelessly by the government.  “The person you are calling is listed as dishonest by the people’s court.  Please encourage them to fulfill their responsibility.”  This what met near universal applause, another breakthrough by the Party in its protection of the people.  Hey, who likes dishonest people?

[Scott Hotes]

I don't think it's completely unreasonable to entertain the idea that this is largely a cultural difference.

And I would agree that on the face of it, the fact that the Chinese people (appear) by-and-large to be

embracing this, is likely a factor in favor of this argument.

FWIW, we have seen many cases in history where a population embraced what turned out to be what

we now consider in hindsight to be, how do I say it, a social trend with negative implications.  In some

cases it seems the population was under either economic stress, or reacting to declining conditions,

etc.

So, facing this question head-on, is it a cultural question to correlate quality of life with personal

autonomy and personal privacy?  I think this is precisely what is being asked.  This not a new question,

and one that we certainly have philosophical backing from the West supporting this correlation as

innate.  I find myself completely unqualified to get at this question.  These liberal values are also

my core values.  Personally, I can't really imagine my life with these personal liberties stripped.  To

me it does sound absolutely dystopian.  We have seen sociological "experiments" in the past, such

as Bolshevik Russia, that were founded, at least in part, on a society stripped of personal decision

making and personal autonomy.  Yes, this was a failed state/experiment.  Is it fair to base its failure

on the effect that this contrast had on the morale and well-being of its people?  Is there any empirical

evidence out there that positive morale/well-being can be correlated with depriving people of

personal liberties?  Not sure.

Scott

[jack saunders]

Scott - I agree.  In theory, infanticide to boost the ratio of capital per worker, while lowering the burden of dependency, should contribute a snowballing spur to gross output.  And, indeed, we have witnessed just that over the 40 years it took China to get giddy rich.  Now come the unforeseen consequence of two girls for every boy.  Short-term imports of prostitution on a corporate scale keeps the factory towns peaceful, but sex workers can supply only a small slice of what natural courting supplies to social ballast, long after the razzle-dazzle of the sex toys has worn off.  They monkeyed with a powerful equilibrium and will be trying to heroically balance accounts for decades.

[vince koloski]

I think it is largely a cultural difference. China has had a system of monarchy and top down rule for two millenia. The entire history of the civilization is one of the rulers being in charge of decision making and the populace following their lead. The CPC is the most recent dynasty to be in charge. However, the Chinese also believe that the government rules by the Mandate of Heaven which obligates them to maintain social order and provide for the people or at least afford them the opportunity to provide for themselves as well as defend the country etc. If the government strays from the Mandate the people have revolted many times over the past few thousand years and dynasties have collapsed. The CPC is very aware of this and wants very much to be seen as upholding the Mandate. The citizens of China are comfortable in system that enforces a level of social conformity that many here in the West would be profoundly uncomfortable with. I certainly believe I would feel constrained there. Given all that there are a few interesting facts that come to mind about CPC rule in China. The first is that I don't believe any country in the history of the world (and while I read lots of history I admit I am not a professional in regards to its study) has lifted so many people from poverty to some semblance of middle class life so quickly (health care, food, shelter, work, education, etc). The second is that for a thousand years the Chinese had an exam based civil service system that was the envy of the world and widely understood to be quite free of corruption. The modern correlation to that is the competitive examination system to get into the best schools and universities in China today. One person I read stated that reason so many children of party leaders and the wealthy in China go to school outside the country is that the families could not bear the humiliation of the fact that their kids do not qualify for the best Chinese universities. 

Also the CPC itself is a meritocracy of the sorts of people who like to govern. It is a very long road from joining the CPC as a young person to rise through the ranks to positions of real power. While there are many examples of Acton's Dictum operating on party members, one of the positive aspects of the Social Credit system is that it applies to Party Members as well as the average citizen and can expose corrupt behaviour throughout the system. 

All this should not be taken as an endorsement of the Chinese model. I have problems with the level of surveillance and data collection in our society. I can't imagine that I would ever be comfortable in theirs, though at there is a lot more transparency in posting the results in China.

Vince

Vince Koloski 415-822-8194