Replacing lifelines - rope or cable?

[Bath Water]

Hi All,

I'm looking for opinions and experiences on the topic:

While my current steel/vinyl OEM lines are still functional, I'm seeing signs of age (rust and cracking) and musing over next steps....

My questions are:

> Is it easier/cheaper to just replace them with the same old nico pressed cables?

> If rope, would 12 strand 5mm Marlowe be fine, or do you need spectra/dyneema?

> If high tech rope, has anyone seen pure white 5mm?

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

"Just this side of Purrfection"

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Mike and Ashley,

 Here are a couple of links to articles on life lines:  https://rigworks.com/replacing-your-lifelines/

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/When-and-How-to-Replace-Your-Lifelines

The Offshore racing committees have gone through a number of cycles where they have allowed hi-tech fibre for lines and then changed their mind. I believe ( and could easily be wrong) that they currently allowing the use of hi-tech fibre for lines. The main concern with the hi-tech is chafe and UV degradation. Any burrs or sharp points on the stanchions can wear through the hi-tech line pretty quickly. 

I think if you are going with fibre rope it has to be hi-tech in order to get the strength required in the size you will be using. White line might match the coated wire you currently have but my experience suggests that gray will look better and will look cleaner over time.

I went with bare wire, 1x19 -  3/16". It only took a couple of days to get use to the look of the bare wire. It almost disappears from view. It stays clean and has not rusted. Much better than the coated wire. I had a rigger do the end fittings. They have been on for over 10 years and there are no signs of degradation from the elements. 

I like the idea of the hi-tech fibre and being able to do all of the policing myself but I just did not want to find out in July when I hit the lifeline that I should have replace the Dyneema in May.

Mark Powers

[newelljc9]

Hi Mike and Ashley,

When restoring Mascouche, I replaced the 1981 SS/vinyl lifelines with with stainless steel wire. Vinyl covering is not a good idea because you cannot inspect the condition of the wire  in the lifelines when covered with vinyl. That is why vinyl covered wire is prohibited on ocean races. Cruisers should take note. My upper lifelines were replaced in 2010 and still looked good in 2021. For the lowers, I use rope.

Cheers,

John Newell

Mascouche 26C1

Toronto 

[Joe Weinbrecht]

If you have the time, and inclination, you can do it yourself and hand swage all the fittings. I replaced all the lifelines on both my 22 and 26 ft Nonesuches. Having a yard do it is asking to be financially put at a disadvantage.

I shopped around and found the best prices for all the Johnson part numbers that you will need. My biggest expense other than the fittings was $15 at harbor freight for a bolt cutter to cut the wire. I can loan you the hand swager. 

If you're interested let me know if you want the details.

PS I cheated a little, on the 26, because I have a friend that works at West Marine and I was able to go in and use their swager for free to do some of my fittings.

Joe 

NS26C #156

Sea Horse

Awaiting the"blizzard" 

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Hi,

I think you're about to discover that you've triggered an ongoing quasi-religious debate.   There's even more to be found on the topic by going to the top of the web page and entering "lifelines" where it says, "Search conversations within INA-Nonsuch-Di..."

I redid the lifelines on my previous 26C with grey Amsteel Dyneema, 3/16", and found it to be easy, fun, and affordable to do it myself. 

My recollections of other's experience is that the price is of going either way is not so far different as to be off-putting.   Claims about longevity are mixed.  Dyneema does degrade, but its enough stronger than steel in strength for weight that a lot of degradation can be handled. 

Steel wire is a well-known entity, and works just fine, too.  Requires tools, but is perfectly amenable to DIY if you have them or have access.  I redid a previous boat, a Yankee Dolphin 24, with wire lines myself.  And found it easy, fun, and affordable.

I personally regard the weighting of factors between them to be about six on one side vs. half a dozen on the other.  I.e., a matter of taste. 

You can get pure white Dyneema on-line, although not from marine sites but from auto, trucking and evil ol' Amazon.  Search for "Dyneema towing line".  The problem with pure white, and I suspect the reason that it's not sold as a marine product, is that a lot of the UV protection comes from the coloration.  The white will suffer UV deterioration faster than grey or blue.   If you decide to go with line rather than wire, and want to go pure white, I'd suggest going up one size in diameter to allow for that.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Paul Miller]

I went with coated wire for the traditional look. Bought the fittings and crimp tool (the cheap one) from Marine Outfitters and found it reasonably easy and reasonably affordable, in boat terms at least.

For west coasters, I am also willing to loan the tool.

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Jim Johnston, 1985 NS30U "Minou", Ottawa]

Co-incidental to this discussion, this article from cruising world appeared on my phone two days ago. 

[John Alexander Stewart]

Hi Jim; that is a good article, thanks for forwarding that.

For others; Free Range Sailing on You Tube have replaced their rigging and lifelines with Dyneema; I think that Troy, the marine engineer part of the duo, knows what he's doing. And, saying that, for the Dyneema rigging, they hired an expert to help and teach them how to do it right.

One thing I do remember was that they replaced the stanchions; they wanted a smooth, no-cut interior so that the dyneema lifelines would not abrade. Hmmm -  I filed that one for further investigation because we, too, have new lifelines on the list and old/original stanchions. 

Might be worth watching (and/or skimming through) their whole refit series from about a year ago; Free Range Sailing is not about (can I say this??) Bums and Boobs on a Boat, but about actual real sailing and living off of the sea. 

Just my Sunday morning musing - John A. Stewart, NS26C 046, waiting for warmer weather to put my bum on the boat at Bath, ON.  

[Paul Miller]

They are all good. They are all proven. They are all strong enough. They all come with various price tags depending on how much you replace and who does the work.

My two cents worth is pick something you like and go sailing. 😁😁

On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 12:09 PM Thor Powell <thor....@gmail.com> wrote:

We've had plain stainless line for many years wit zero problems.  Not sure what advantage is to be gained with using line.......

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 11:12:15 AM UTC-8 Bath Water wrote:

Hi All,

Second thumbs up on the great article...

Points of failure:

In the wire scenarios, it appears to be at the swaged connections (failing at ~50% of wire strength)

In the Dyneema scenarios, it appears to be UV deterioration and abrasion if you are splicing, or (failing at 50% of rope strength if using loop knots.)

What is enough?

The conversation seems to quickly go down the road of, "...here's how to make it so strong you can actually lift you boat out of the water with it"...

No one seems to quantify with any practicality just how much strength you need.

There's a general mood that stronger is better, without any baseline objective metrics.

We can know the tensile strength of the wire (3/16" @ ~3000 lbs) (1/4" @~ 5000lbs)

We can assume that if the failure is at the swage (@ ~1500-2500 lbs)

So, could we assume 5mm Dyneema with a tensile strength of ~5000lbs...tied with bowlines...reducing system strength to 2500lbs would be just fine? (yes splices would be better)

It's hard to wrap your head around a scenario where the stanchions would not have failed long before my tumbling corpulent frame could apply 1000lbs + of tensile strain to a lifeline let alone 2500 lbs......which begs the question....sanity check.....what's enough?

I see a frequent concern being burs causing abrasion failure in Dyneema.

I suppose if a simple sanding with emery paper is too difficult. these plastic grommet inserts seem designed to assuage the fear factor for this issue...and won't break the bank.

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

"Just this side of Purrfection"

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

For future reference working load limits are 1/3 of breaking strength of rigging.  ttps://herculesslr.com/resources/blog/working-load-limit-vs-breaking-strength/

Whereas Samson Rope suggests 5 times or 10 times for climbing. This is a link to a good article by Samson.

https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/warning-insert.pdf

Note, impact load from a falling body is much higher. If you fall from the cabin top on to the life line the impact load will be much higher than your body weight.

With Dyneema, I would not recommend a bowline. The line is to slippery and the knot will pull through long before you reach the working load limit. According to Samson Ropes a properly made eye splice in Dyneema will retain 90% to 100% of the line. That is pretty darn good. https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/default-source/splice-instructions/12strand_c2_eye_splice_web.pdf?sfvrsn=f00ad20c_2

I normally use a locking Brummel splice in Dyneema   which also retains 90-100% of the rope strength 

https://www.animatedknots.com/brummel-eye-splice-knot-demo

How much is enough? This is what US Sailing has to say on that topic when using Dyneema  

 https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Dyneema-Spectra-Lifeline-Revision-Jan-2014.pdf

Here is what Practical Sailor had to say in an Article published in 2002 and updated in 2019

https://www.practical-sailor.com/safety-seamanship/offshore-log-check-your-lifelines-save-your-life

and in another article

https://www.practical-sailor.com/safety-seamanship/fiber-lifeline-protection-plan

Mark Powers

[Thor Powell]

i have stainless un-coated lines with Johnson pelican hooks.  The bare wires are fine and the pelican hooks are easy to adjust but I needed to put a little blue Loctite to keep the lock nuts in place.  One of the springs in the hooks gave way and Johnson mailed me a replacement at no charge to Northern Ontario.... so excellent service from Johnson..  Had it all made up using the old coated ones as a template. 

Saw someone lose all their lifelines when they shrink wrapped their boat, the heat gun they were using melted the line in 3 places......

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 12:13:15 PM UTC-8 sandpip...@gmail.com wrote:

[Marc Dworkin]

Great service, quality and pricing from Secosouth.  Replaced my lifelines last winter.

https://secosouth.com/marine/lifelines/

Marc Dworkin

One Wish

NS30U #326

Moored at Nyack, NY

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Mike and Ashley,

Spring of 2020 I replaced my original life-lines (33 years old) - I had been meaning to do it for at least several seasons but kept putting it off. When 'tossing' the inflatable dinghy from the dock onto the boat (deflated in it's bag, about 65lbs)) it landed on the life-line just forward of the portside gate and - POW! - the line snapped! Well, now I had to replace them.

I decided to use the Suncor Quick-Attach life-line sets. It is DYI, so I was able to avoid the costly labor fees to have someone else do it, as well as the careful disassembly of the existing lines, shipping them somewhere and then hoping for the correct replacement.  The Suncor life-lines had received very good reviews as well.

They were easy to install. The most difficult part was cutting the new life-lines to the correct lengths because the bolt-cutter I borrowed wasn't very sharp... had to improvise but it all worked out.

The original set-up was vinyl coated, with a smaller diameter cables/lines on the lower sections, than on the top. Suncor didn't have the smaller diameter lines, so I put the same sized diameter on both top and bottom. I opted for vinyl-coated again, as I like the 'hand' and the slightly larger diameter... I know that the recommendation is to use the un-coated wire now to prevent hidden corrosion.  Suncor does make the un-coated ss cables too.

I used rubber grommets to protect the lower life-lines from the rough edges/cuts made as the old life-lines sawed thru the stanchions over the years from hanging fenders on them (several years ago I switched to Taylor Made Fender Tender II's that will clip over the stanchion posts - these work great!) - Tip - thread the grommets onto the life-lines as you are running them through each stanchion post - will make it much easier! If you decide to use grommets.

I took my time so it took about 3 part-days to do the entire boat (30' Ultra) including new upper and lower gates.

I have video of the entire process if needed - let me know. Suncor has installation videos which made it very easy to understand how to do this project.

I purchased all from Defender in the US as they had the best pricing on the parts.  For the 30' Ultra it took 4 kits... about $1,000 US$ in 2020.

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 Ultra 430

Jersey City, NJ

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 8:26:15 AM UTC-5 Bath Water wrote:

[Paul Miller]

The DIY alternative is the hand crimp tool with Johnson fittings. They are really quite easy to use and don’t take as long as you might think. With white vinyl covered wire my 30 cost under $450 CAD with all new fittings including all three gates. Took a day.

On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 10:52 AM Bath Water <mom2gr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Peter,

Thank you,

I watched the video from Suncor. That really makes the DIY swaging job look easy.

I too like the traditional white look of vinyl and hand friendly nature. Pretty sure offshore racing is not in the cards....

I would be interested in your video, as it's from a "real user" perspective.

Seems like a good compromise between a shop doing the full job and DIY with knots....

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

"Just this side of Purrfection"

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[Peter Grabow]

Hi - 

I located the videos of the Suncor Quick Attach life-line installation - there are several videos (I did not review them this time, and they are not edited and may not be in any particular order - sorry).  After working with the life-lines for a day or so, I had figured out what worked best (for me) and show some tips on how to make the assembly easier.  I hope these are helpful.

Sandpiper seems to have a less expensive alternative, and Johnson fittings are known to be of excellent quality.  When I priced out Johnson parts and the wire for both top and bottom life-lines I was coming out with a higher cost than using the Suncor system... and I was able to use tools I had on-hand. 

This link should take you to the videos -

https://gopro.com/v/WyQdmgmdv2a1V

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 Ultra 430

Jersey City, NJ

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 1:52:12 PM UTC-5 Bath Water wrote:

Hi Peter,

Thank you,

I watched the video from Suncor. That really makes the DIY swaging job look easy.

I too like the traditional white look of vinyl and hand friendly nature. Pretty sure offshore racing is not in the cards....

I would be interested in your video, as it's from a "real user" perspective.

Seems like a good compromise between a shop doing the full job and DIY with knots....

Cheers,

Mike and Ashley Read

NS 26C #120 Nauti Girl

Bath, Ont.

"Just this side of Purrfection"

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 12:44:14 PM UTC-5 Peter Grabow wrote: