Halyard Kinks

[Paul Miller]

Do any of you who raise your sail with a drill / self tailing winch or power winch have trouble with kinks in double braid halyards? I replaced my old halyard last spring with a new 7/16” Marlow doublebraid one and have been getting recurring kink issues that prevent my sail from dropping as easily as it should. The kinks jam in the first deck fairlead and the sail stops dropping.

My old halyard didn’t have the issue and I have milked the kinks out over and over but they keep returning. I have several other Marlow DB lines and this is the only one that does it.

Originally I thought it was because the line was new but it doesn’t seem to be getting better.

I’m wondering if the fact that it is always run over a winch (3 wraps) when raised is inducing the kinks.

So is the technique the culprit or is the line the culprit?

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[MeSays Sheri and Phil's]

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[MeSays Sheri and Phil's]

I have a dynema halyard. And it kinks in the fairlead. Try balentinimg the halyard before dropping the sail. It’s a pain but the halyard will not kink. 

Phil LeVine. Ns36#3

[Paul Miller]

I’m not familiar with that term. I always twirl and milk the kinks out as much as I can and that helps but they always seem to come back.

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Steve Romeyn]

I was curious to find out what that term means. Google “Ballantine Coil”

Steve Romeyn

WINDSONG 2005 NS33

Deltaville, VA

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From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Miller <sandpip...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 4:44:09 PM
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Halyard Kinks

 

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[Ron Weber]

Mesays,

Thanks a ton for bringing the Ballentine coil into this discussion. I've been sailing for a long long time and never came across that. I watched a West Marine how to video and I now see the light, it makes sense. I've been doing the old 1/4 turn each coil and I can't wait to get out again and try that new trick. Now who said this old dog can't learn new tricks?

Ron Weber

N22 Magic Time

Punta Gorda Fl

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

I was raised with the "Figure 8" coil.

The AnimatedKnots.com website describes it as follows:

Figure 8 Coil: Another popular technique for avoiding twists and tangle is the Figure 8 Coil: no twist is put in the rope as you form each turn. Instead each turn is laid as a stack of overlapping Figure 8 turns. The coil is completed in the same way. The resulting coil is not as neat but maintains the rope ready for use and likely to run out with no tangles.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

After hitting post, I realized that there's a related link on the site that shows a related animation:

https://www.animatedknots.com/figure-8-flake-knot

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[Paul Miller]

Maybe I need to re-phrase my question. I am aware of the dangers of poor coiling technique creating kinks. I don’t ever coil my halyard. When the sail is down it’s all out on the boat and mast and when the sail is up I leave it in the beautifully flaked pile that it naturally lands in below the winch.

Again my old halyard didn’t do this at all with the same technique. I’m asking I guess if anyone has any reason to suspect Marlow doublebraid of being kink prone or if anyone has experience with a winch inducing kink in a line when a long stretch is processed through under tension.

Thanks

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[Charles Garbarino]

This might sound silly, but it solved the problem for me.  I always coiled the line with my right hand coiling while my left hand held the coiled halyard.  After thoroughly shaking out the line, I started alternating which hand had which task.  Fixed it right away.

Chuck Garbarino 

As You Wish

1985 30U

Lansing, NY

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Paul,

I didn't pick up on your real question.  Thanks for clarifying, and sorry for not trying to address it the first time around.

It is indeed a bit of a mystery to me.  New line.  No problems with same type of line from same manufacturer elsewhere.  No change in procedure.   What's going on is indeed a good question.

I can't speak from experience about Marlow lines because I've only used other brands, but they've got a reasonable reputation.  I'd be surprised if they're to blame for this.

It wouldn't surprise me if the wraps around the winch might be part of the explanation, but it's still strange that it's happening now and never before.  Is there anything you've installed or anything you've started doing that's different other than this new line?

Is there any chance that the amount of tension on the line is greater than you used to put on it for some reason?  And/or that the line's staying wrapped around the winch longer than it used to be?  Alternatively, have you changed anything about the way you tie off the halyard at the dock, so that there's prolonged constant tension on the line as it passes over the masthead sheave?  Something like that's the only direction I can think of to look for an explanation.

Is there any pattern to where the kinks occur?  I wonder if you marked the line whenever it kinks, whether you'd see the mark showing up at the same spot every time?  If you did, it would point to some fitting that point on the line interacts with.  If you didn't, it'd point to something about the line or the flaking.

I haven't replaced my halyard yet, but I had a good experience with higher tech line elsewhere.  The line with the most twists and turns I've ever encountered on any boat was the topping lift control line on my previous Nonsuch (going through a four-part block set before going to a turning block, through four guide rings on the wishbone, to another hanging block, down to the mast base, through another turning block, through a deck organizer, and then a sheetstopper).  I replaced a frequently kinking double-braid line with a polyester cover / dyneema core line, and never saw a kink again. 

But, I think that'd cost about twice as much as polyester double-braid.   Multiplied by the 120 feet a Nonsuch 30 halyard runs, that's a daunting figure. 

I'm spitballing here.  Knowing your expertise, I doubt I'm raising anything you haven't already thought of, but it never hurts to ask.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26C #233

[Cedric Guthrie]

Discontinue using the self tailer and your kinks will go away

 

Safe Sailing

Cedric – Single Malt

26C  #207

Chester Nova Scotia

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)
Sent: November 29, 2021 2:18 AM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Halyard Kinks

 

Paul,

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[Paul Miller]

Thanks Bob, it’s a mystery to me too. The only differences are the line manufacturer and the size. The old one was 1/2”, this is 7/16”.

My last boat was a small gaff rigger and when the sails were up there was a lot of line and not much space so coiling was mandatory. Any problems I had with kinks quickly went away with a little use and proper coiling. This is different and it’s not about coiling. As I said I don’t coil it.

I didn’t take this line off a reel. It came in a box and I suppose there may be a chance that whoever did may have created the problem right then. It seems very unlikely but other explanations are hard to find.

I’m going to attach a line to my halyard shackle, pull it to the top of the mast at the dock and then start at the mast exit and work the line all the way to the end on the dock until it is perfect. If I re-install it then and the problem returns I guess I’ll have to try changing the line.

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[Paul Miller]

Cedric,

If you have experience with this, that is the kind of answer I was expecting but hoping not to get. Unfortunately I singlehand all the time and the self tailer/Milwaukee drill is a key feature for me. In reality the kinks are more of a nuisance and I can live with them more easily than without the self tailer.

I suspect the winch myself. 

The question remains why it didn’t happen with the old line.

Thanks

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[Fred Rachwitz]

I replaced my reef clew lines and topping lift with Marlow double braid for this last summer season and had no problems with kinking. I did carefully run the new lines out straight and through my hands several times to remove any coiling effect and I am careful to not induce kinks when I recoil. I don’t winch them very much sine I reduced line size on replacement.  My halyard is not a problem either ( New England 900, I think) but I do not winch more than a few turns. I bring along deck ape guests to jump the line at the mast and then just tighten. Fast, clean and no problems. Well, I do go through apes, but more are willing to come along. 

Fred Rachwitz

Concerto

Nonsuch 30 U #445

Harbor Springs, Michigan

Northern Lake Michigan

Sent from Fred’s iPad Air 3

On Nov 29, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Paul Miller <sandpip...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Paul Miller]

Thanks Fred, I’m really happy with my other Marlow lines as well and many are a size smaller than the ones they replace because Marlow’s strengths are so good.

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[Joe Valinoti]

Fred:  I use the same plan and I’ve been lucky this year in that all of my racing crew are much younger then I.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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