Keel Bolt Question

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Hi All,

Background - Soave's keel joint ( photo HERE ) has a slight surface gap (AKA keel smile). It is exactly the same as last winter.  Our surveyor did not flag it as a problem and when I asked him and he said most boats of Soave's vintage have similar keel joints.  There are some spots  where fairing compound is coming loose ( HERE )  and exposing some bare lead.  Last winter I had good results cleaning and priming the lead with epoxy.  This winter I'm planning to again remove any loose paint and fairing compound, prime any bare lead with epoxy, and put a coat of a mid-grade ablative bottom paint on the keel and portions of the bottom.  My long range plan is to refinish the bottom and move to a more environmentally friendly anti-fouling strategy. ( NOT this season)

My plan to invest time with minor keel work has my thinking maybe I ought to check retorque the keel bolts.  Given the other work I'm planning, I don't think this is a good year for a full inspection of the keel bolts which would involve dropping the keel.  

Question(s) - 

1. Is it worth re-torquing the keel bolts without the complete inspection ?
2. If I don't drop the keel and rebed, is it worth trying to do anything with the "keel smile" besides maybe a superficial removal of loose paint or fairing and then applying some 4200 or Sikaflex to level and fill?
3. Has anyone accessed keel bolts on a NS33 ?  The waste holding tank blocks access to all but two of her keel bolts.  How difficult is it to remove the tank ?Soave currently has a composting toilet which we are happy with.  Much fresher smell than our friends boats.  Her waste holding tank was not removed when marine head was removed and I had been thinking of repurposing it as a deck washdown tank after appropriate cleaning.( it is already pretty clean )  But if it prevents servicing keel bolts maybe the smart move it to permanently remove the tank.  Any and all thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks, 

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

[Ward Woodruff]

Hi Rob,

To remove the holding tank, you need to remove the floor in the main cabin. The floor on my boat had been replaced before I owned the boat.  Perhaps this happened when the original aluminum tank was replaced with plastic.  The plywood floor sections are held down by visible screws. It was not difficult to remove the floor and necessary beams above the holding tank. Removal of the tank was rather easy. 

One or two keel bolts are under structure within the keel depression and will require a crowfoot wrench to tighten. 

I recall being able to get a partial turn on the nuts. I don’t believe that any improvement was obtained in preventing fine cracks from occurring over time in the exterior fairing. My hull to keel joint is however much less noticeable than yours because of the fairing. 

My boat is shoal draft but I believe the hull to keel joint is the same as a deep draft boat. 

At my boatyard there are several 33’s. I can take photos of those joints if you desire. 

Ward Woodruff

N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

On Dec 30, 2024, at 5:50 PM, Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/2bc2b4f8-e712-4ed9-9286-6db1d34a910dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Ward,

Thanks for your response.  If you happen to be at the boatyard, I'd appreciate it if you snap a few photos for comparison, and send them to me.

I think I'll add removal of the waste tank and  re-torque the bolts as medium priority to this year's list of projects.

New question, when you replaced your mast, did you happen to remove your mast step casting ?  If so, did it come out easy ?  Was it glued in or just held in with the lag bolts ?

My mast step casting has two of the alignment bolts broken off.  The other's are missing and the "jump pin" is missing.  Looks like the last crew that pulled the mast got frustrated and decided to skip a few steps when the bolts broke.  

I'm going to put restore the setup to original spec. but I'm worried about removing the broken bolts in a confined space.

I'm thinking the casting would be easier to work on if I remove it and work on it in my workshop.

Thanks,

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

[Ward Woodruff]

Rob,

I have not removed my mast step.  I have on a couple of occasions “repaired” corroded/stripped centering bolt threads. I did not have broken bolts stuck in holes. 

The first attempt was to add helicoils at each thread.  Those failed. Second attempt was to enlarge holes for 3/8” bolts. Those failed. Third attempt increase to 1/2” bolts. The 1/2” is working. Use tefgel on the threads. RW

With the step collar in place you basically need to stand on your head to work on the collar. 

The origin of the problem was corrosion of the deck collar stainless fastening bolts and their collar holes. One half of the bolt heads’ thickness was recessed into the mast collar, the collar was able to slide around and as a result, water leaked ending up at the mast step area. 

The fix for the deck collar was to have a machinist install custom aluminum flanged bushings in machined collar holes. Leak fixed and deck collar is solidly in place. 

Ward Woodruff

413-847-0620 cell

On Dec 30, 2024, at 9:43 PM, Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/9ebeefce-db7b-494b-989f-5e194979a361n%40googlegroups.com.

[Mike Massagli]

Rob and others - 

should you get to the point of re-torquing your keel bolts, there is brief reference to proper torque in a checklist in a March 1994 newsletter.

See attached.

I do not know if it agrees or contradicts other information you may find elsewhere (I think as of today 1/31/25) the GG discussion returns 74 threads when you search on 'keel bolt').

I do not see reference to this in the New Owner's Guide or in the original owner's manual.

FWIW - this is the kind of information that would be great to include in a Wiki, should that emerge.

Mike Massagli

NS22 #4, Piccola

lying Nantasket, MA

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Thanks Mike....  I remembered seeing the checklist, but I had forgotten it included the torque spec.

This is a good example of timeless information well suited for curated documents... 

I have a feeling that Soave's keel bolts were not maintained as recommended in the checklist.  Accessing keel bolts on a NS 33 requires removal of the waste tank.  Turns out,  I am removing Soave's waste tank  because she came to me with a composting head, that works fine for us, so the tank is redundant.

Once I have access to the keel bolts I may re-torque them... the instructions I've heard is :

1. One-by-one back off the bolt (one at a time if you are not planning to drop the keel), clean the threads, apply anti-seize paste, replace bolt and tighten to 80% of target.
2. Repeat for each bolt.
3. Return to each bolt gradually increasing torque in 5%-8% increments  till target is reached for each bolt.
4. Some folks say re-torquing is a waste of effort if you are not also inspecting and rebedding at the same time( dropping the keel).  I'm not sure I'm up for a full inspection this year, the stuff I'm already committed to do puts me on a tight schedule. 

Rob

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

[Mike Massagli]

You're welcome.

I might fine tune your steps to suggest that you loosen/tighten every other bolt as opposed to starting at one end and doing them in sequence, when you get to the end of the line return to the second bold (skipped the first time) and proceed to every other bolt.  I doubt it would matter much, but feel like things would bed or come home a little truer.

Can't comment on #4.

Michael Massagli

NS22 #4   Piccola

lying Nantasket, MA

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Yea, I'm still pondering #4 myself.

I like your thought about every other bolt.  Most of Soave's weight is being supported by the blocks under her keel, but we don't know for sure if it evenly supported.  Every other bolt minimizes the possibility of disturbing the remaining sealant in the keel joint.

Going to have to find a monster extension to get to the suggested torque spec.

Rob 

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Westport, CT

[Michael Stangl]

Rob,

The West Epoxy manual on fiberglass repair has a good section on repairing the keel "smile" after you determine if you need to tighten the keel bolts. 

I have found the G/flex product to work very well in this application. You can download the entire manual for free at:

https://www.westsystem.com/instruction/instruction-manuals/fiberglass-boat-repair-maintenance/

Good luck!

Mike

Mariposa

Nonsuch 30U / Hull#272

Dutch Harbor, RI

[Thor Powell.Nonsuch 26C Vancouver Island]

The question of torque arises on occasion. All the references you will find are metal to metal not stainless to lead. Snug up but not to "spec" as there really is none..

Many of the keels are 3m  5200 in place even if you removed the bolts you need to cut the keel off with a saws all...

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Thor,

Is the stainless to lead interface is relevant regarding torque ? 

The Nonsuch keel bolt repairs I have read about indicate our keel bolts are "J" bolts cast in lead.

My main concern is that I should not tighten a corroded keel bolt to full spec unless I am prepared for the possibility it snaps.  In other words, be prepared for doing a repair similar to the job described ( HERE ) in a yard that you know and trust.

I agree that most keels wouldn't drop even if all their bolts are loosened. 

Rob

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Cedar Point YC

Westport, CT

.

[Mike Massagli]

Long ago I pondered the keel bolt replacement problem (fortunately didn't need to).

That was more than 10 years ago, so I suspect the costs cited may be 2 to 3X.

You can learn about things at the Mars Keel website:
http://www.marskeel.com/services/3

They have an e-mail contact form and I submitted an inquiry and heard back
promptly that they had consulted original drawings and confirmed that the
bolts are J-hooked in the casting.

They then went on to describe that their basic replacement process and
quoted $275 per bolt replaced, plus freight.

They describe their process in more detail here:
http://www.marskeel.com/fckeditor/userfiles/File/bolt_replacement_pdf.pdf

I inquired about the cost of purchasing replacement bolts (so that I could
have the work done locally). The response I received was: "There is no
other company that can refuse the bolts in the keel the way
we do."

Michael Massagli

NS22 #4  Piccola

lying Nantasket, MA

[Rob Cohen "Soave" NS33 Westport, CT]

Mike,

That would definitely be a "winter project" if you have to remove the keel and ship it to Ontario.

Another one of the many things I didn't know about Nonsuch boats.

Thanks,

Rob Cohen

s/v SOAVE

NS33 #009

Cedar Point YC

Westport, CT