Fathead Sail question?

[peter farley]

I am looking to increase the visibility from the cockpit of my boat under sail. I am looking at possibility  of changing the the top of the sail to a fat head by removing the top 18 inches off the sail and them moving everything up by that amount. This way I would not have to keep peaking under the sail to watch for other boats. Has anyone looked at this before.?

Peter Farley

Knot in a Hurry u30 #328

Keyport NJ.

[Don Crossley]

I'm interested in this idea too. Alternatively, what about cutting the foot at a different angle from the clew to the tack so it hits the mast about 18" higher?

Either way, the head or foot trimmed, the tack attachment point on the mast needs to be raised. Has anyone done this?

Don

'87 NS30U Breezin'

Vancouver BC

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/47b936c6-b3ed-458f-9752-781a280e4d79n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

This is interesting. Question - is there generally more force or pull on the tack point of a sail than, let's say, a foot or two higher up on the luff ? Put a different way, is there less strain on any of the sail lugs than on the actual tack (which is very beefy on our boats) ?

If one adopts Don's idea about cutting the foot on an angle, etc. .....  If the strain is the same and if you move the tack on the sail to 18" higher up the luff, you could just run an 18" length of good Dyneema (Ah .... Dyneema .... the solution to EVERYTHING nautical) from the original tack point (sorry ... name escapes me) on the mast to the new tack cringle on the sail and hoist the "re-cut" sail to the top.

Or, will there be too much strain on the very first sail lug (which would, likely, be a new one, installed as close to the "new tack" on the sail as possible ?

Hope this is clear. 

I think all of this points to a better solution than taking a demolition saw to the entire coach roof so that one could see over the roof more easily.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Brian Berdan]

I too was considering a 'fat head' or 'square top' shape when we ordered a new sail five years ago (photoshopped imagination of it attached).  When talking with the naval architect who scaled the Nonsuch plans to the 26 (forget his name), he convinced me not to do it, partly because of engineering considerations (mast forces, etc.) and partly because of the need to deal with the topping lift hitting the roach.  Part of my desire was to raise the sail a bit for better visibility, and to get more of the sail up where the wind is.  I ended up sticking with a classic shape and raised the tack point about a foot.  The previous owner had raised the sail by a foot long cable at the tack, but that put far too much strain on the sail and sail track, which was pulling out of the mast.  

All in all, I'm glad I didn't change sail shape- while it would've 'looked cool', I'm not the one who would be seeing it.  Raising the sail a foot did help visibility.

Brian & Susan Berdan

"Blue September" 260 #7

Bainbridge Island, Washington

(this was the extreme version)

[Joe Valinoti]

Changing the point loading on our masts seems a little scary to me.  I’d be concerned that something we didn’t think about or consider could cause failure of the rig.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/96d665e9-6ece-4a72-b372-f2e2385b9b91n%40googlegroups.com.

[Eric Hakanson]

This past weekend a INA NDG member asked questions about the foot length of his new sail. He mentioned the sailmaker and his contact at the loft. This past weekend I had guests onboard and we enjoyed a several mile dead downwind sail. I was constantly checking under the sail for other boats. My situation is complicated by a “sailpack” mainsail cover which attaches along the entire foot of the sail and hangs below the foot. This further obstructs the view from the leeward side. 

I called the referenced sailmaker yesterday and the net of the conversation was, “I see no reason why a lengthy window could not be added above the foot from near the luff to near the leach”. He suggested that “it would add less than $100 to the cost of a new sail”.

That is as much thought as I’ve given to this. I do prefer the idea of adding a window over the idea of modifying sail shapes at both the head & clew. “Engineering changes” have been appropriately referenced, but it seems there would be a change to the “PHRF” rating for racing as well? This might be a challenge to determine a new rating. 

What do others think?

Eric Hakanson 

NS 30U #484 “Carpe Diem”

Boothbay Harbor Yacht Club 

Boothbay Harbor, Maine

Eric C. Hakanson

207.350.5235 (m)

Boothbay, ME

Begin forwarded message:

From: 'Brian Berdan' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Date: July 7, 2021 at 1:22:38 PM EDT
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Fathead Sail question?

Reply-To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/7f6b3363-e402-48f1-adde-3a39bf2aa7b3n%40googlegroups.com.

[10464...@gmail.com]

There is always the possibility of installing a "collision window" in the sail. I am not advocating that.

Bob Dryer

30C 170

[Joe Valinoti]

Bob:  I’ve not heard the term “Collision Window” before.  I assume it’s just a window near the foot as someone suggested??

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/dcf585d3-a7c9-4b0d-935b-8c8579eb5f59n%40googlegroups.com.

[peter farley]

I looked into the window. I also have the stack pack that hangs down below the foot. There is a how to on sailrite but they have a disclaimer at the top of the how to.  

"Avoid making the window larger than necessary since vinyl window material is relatively heavy, and keep the window at least 6 inches from the sail’s edge as the window material stretches more than Dacron sailcloth. Also keep in mind that increased heeling will change the line of sight upward, meaning the window placement would be higher than normal.

So given all that, the window has to be large enough to cover the heal angle as well as on a run and it will billow out after a while. Plus not sure what happens are flacking the sail a few times.

Depending on where it would end up could have two or 3 lines folded into it.

Almost want it to be a zippered in window so it can be replaces without reworking the sail.

Peter Farley

Knot in a Hurry u30 #328

Keyport NJ.

[Joe Valinoti]

Several good points, Peter.  One of these days when I’m up in Highlands, we need to meet.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/c483d415-3709-495c-ad38-f7a2635cafb4n%40googlegroups.com.

[Tim in STL]

When flying we were taught to make Clearing Turns to check for other aircraft.  Sailing on the Mississippi we call those clearing turns Tacking. It would take a darn fast boat to sneak up on anyone sailing the river and those fast boats are usually too noisy to sneak up on anyone.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[Joe Valinoti]

Believe me, it doesn’t take long for a fast boat to come up on you.  Having had a Cape Dory 30 totaled by a 63 ft Searay up on plane (probably close to 35 knots).  The boat did have good visibility, but at that speed ...........

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/933ae7f6-74f3-4978-8204-dd10c97dededn%40googlegroups.com.

[peter farley]

I am fortunate that if the wind is right I can sail for 8 or 10 miles on a single tack across the bay. 

But that includes two channel crossing , a place to troll for fishing and two places that rent jets skis.

Yes i can here the jet skis until the decide to stop and have chat in front of me which has happened more than once.

Trolling boats are slowing moving until they decide to go somewhere else which might be across my path.

And now we have ocean kayakers paddling around in black kayaks 6 inches off the water.

I would just like to get a clear line of sight without tacking or peaking from time to time.

Joe, would love to hook up next time you are up here.

Peter Farley

Knot in a Hurry u30 #328

Keyport NJ.

 

[Joe Valinoti]

Ah, yes, I remember that bay well, Dennis.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/9f850d0e-1ea7-460e-a59f-e55aaaea73cfn%40googlegroups.com.

[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

I'd not be changing the tack point on the mast due to reinforcement issues. 

I have a 26 and often sail resting against the combing on the low side, even from the high side I get a good view forward. If it pipes up to the point where the low side is too low then the high side offers a pretty good view.. 

It might just be an illusion but I find stack packs can sometimes he an issue. 

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

I am with Thor on this one. I would not be fiddling around with the tack. Have a window put in the sail or a crew member sit on the low side. 

Mark Powers

[newelljc9]

The answer is YES. I too had problems with sailing blind when single handed with a stack pack. It is one of the many reasons I changed my rig. I lopped 7' off the peak and raised the sail 4' off the deck. It makes the world of difference when sailing in the crowded Toronto inner harbour. All the top triangle of the Bermudian sail does is create a vortex which does nothing for performance. I am in my 80's and have to come to grips with the fact of foiling dinghies that travel at warp speed compared with what my generation and those before me are used to. Jorgen Moller and I have no regrets about changing our rigs. It is giving us many more years of enjoying our fantastic little yachts.

For those who do not want to "mess" with their rigs, would they consider mounting camera(s) at the mast to provide forward visibility?? My experience with plastic is that it deteriorates quickly and requires constant cleaning to maintain a clear window. 

Cheers,

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto 

[Richard Lane]

One problem with a mast camera is that of field of view angle which your neck can achieve but even a fisheye lens cannot. On my car, I added a paper stripe calibrated in feet behind the rear bumper, to the dash display. I find it quite reassuring when parking.

Paul in Cowichan Bay, recently reported inadequate resolution of automobile backup cameras for lobster pot avoidance. Peeking under the boom and looking over the dodger are part and parcel of the helmsman’s responsibility.

Richard Lane

Port Townsend

On Jul 8, 2021, at 10:23 AM, newelljc9 <newe...@gmail.com> wrote:

The answer is YES. I too had problems with sailing blind when single handed with a stack pack. It is one of the many reasons I changed my rig. I lopped 7' off the peak and raised the sail 4' off the deck. It makes the world of difference when sailing in the crowded Toronto inner harbour. All the top triangle of the Bermudian sail does is create a vortex which does nothing for performance. I am in my 80's and have to come to grips with the fact of foiling dinghies that travel at warp speed compared with what my generation and those before me are used to. Jorgen Moller and I have no regrets about changing our rigs. It is giving

<IMG_3162 (6).jpg>

us many more years of enjoying our fantastic little yachts.

For those who do not want to "mess" with their rigs, would they consider mounting camera(s) at the mast to provide forward visibility?? My experience with plastic is that it deteriorates quickly and requires constant cleaning to maintain a clear window. 

Cheers,

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto 

On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 10:15:30 AM UTC-4 peter farley wrote:

I am looking to increase the visibility from the cockpit of my boat under sail. I am looking at possibility  of changing the the top of the sail to a fat head by removing the top 18 inches off the sail and them moving everything up by that amount. This way I would not have to keep peaking under the sail to watch for other boats. Has anyone looked at this before.?

Peter Farley

Knot in a Hurry u30 #328

Keyport NJ.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/7a4f4b9b-fd1c-4ace-9105-c11e90426dd2n%40googlegroups.com.

<IMG_3162 (6).jpg>

[Katmando]

I am puzzled by this thread, I have been sailing since I was 16 and I am now 70.

Everything from sailing dinghies, class racing in keelboats and cruising in Beneteau, Tartan,  CS Merlin and finally for the last 10+ years my NS30u.

I have never had an issue with situational awareness when sailing. I can see  all around.

Especially on the Nonsuch.  I ever exceed 12 degrees of heel as it slows the boat down.

I have a full enclosure but the back, sides and top are removed when sailing, the Dodger is sufficient as shade and a wind break. There is much more visibility on the Such than in most Bermuda rigged sailboats.

I just don’t know what to think about “sailing blind”

Sorry, but there it is …..

Brian McCuaig. NS30u

Whitby, Ontario

“Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." 

On Jul 8, 2021, at 15:19, Richard Lane <rql...@aceweb.com> wrote:

One problem with a mast camera is that of field of view angle which your neck can achieve but even a fisheye lens cannot. On my car, I added a paper stripe calibrated in feet behind the rear bumper, to the dash display. I find it quite reassuring when parking.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/1336B2EC-5ACD-497C-A95A-F6898A4AC6A2%40aceweb.com.

[Don Crossley]

I'd like to know when they started catching lobster in Cowichan Bay?🦞🙂

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/603637D9-3B57-4457-85B5-99420D131E04%40rogers.com.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

My two cents worth .....

My NS 22 is the model with the real "visibility" issue as the cabin top is relatively high in comparison to the height of the cockpit seats in order to provide standing headroom, etc., in a small boat. My solution is to never really drop my guard and to keep watch for obstructions and problems ahead. Sometimes, I actually have to get up off my duff. Sometimes, I even have to crane my neck but that's the price I pay for sailing my boat.

The one person that I always wondered about was the engineer of a big steam locomotive. That poor sod had two tiny windows to look straight ahead and had to drive that thing by sticking his head out the side windows. Then again, what about Charles Lindbergh ???  He crossed the Atlantic in a plane with NO front window. How bizarre. He was looking at a wall (I think). That must be like flying a plane with a bucket over your head.

Isn't life odd ??!!

Ernie A. in Toronto

[John Alexander Stewart]

Ernie;

Off topic:

The one person that I always wondered about was the engineer of a big steam locomotive. That poor sod had two tiny windows to look straight ahead and had to drive that thing by sticking his head out the side windows

I've spent lots of time in the cab of steam locomotives; usually as a fireman (left hand side in most locomotives) when out on the "open mainline", right hand moving the things when in yard areas. I have let my TSSA "Steam Traction Operator" ticket lapse; not much steam trains running in Ontario. (St. Jacobs is one) I've run trains in Poland, worked (volunteered) in the USA a number of times (Trainfests, Salt lake Olympics in 2002, and in Felton, California), and quite a bit of time here in Ontario.

Usually, once per long trip on the mainline, the engineer would yell across the cab floor "did you see XXX people" - always it was a "yes", at least for me on the left seat. Visibility is not good, as you surmise.

Noisy, stinky machines, but I used to think it was like riding a dragon; when taking Ex. CPR 1201 out onto the railway (CNR or CPR) the machine would be warm, quietly creaking, clunking, but ready to go. The thing would come alive - oil fire hissing just under your feet, the machine shaking with a rhythm; the exhaust up the smokestack was like ejecting telephone poles - many per minute. When flying at track speed, 65 mph, something like 10 gallons of oil and 100 gallons of water would go through her per minute. (with over 1,000 people behind her, the MPG per passenger was actually not bad) We'd stop to do runpasts - stop in a field somewhere, let people get out, back up about a mile, when the conductor on the ground radioed the "go!" the engineer would give her all she'd give to get up to speed. As a fireman, one had to watch the water level in the boiler; before the start, engineer and fireman would agree that the water was at 1/2 glass; open the throttle, the water would rush to the back of the boiler, giving a "full" indication. Too much water at the start, and it could create really bad problems with the mechanism. When past the crowd, brakes on full, water to the front of the boiler, and the gauge glass would be empty. Pumps on full, hoping to see a "wave" of water in the bottom of the glass, to tell us that the boiler crown sheet was not going to overheat.

Like sailing, one used ones' senses - all of them - to feel how the locomotive was doing.

Back to decoding NMEA 2000 packets with my little computers ... Thanks for the flashback!

John A. Stewart

NS26C 046

Kingston ON.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

John -

I won't "stay" off topic as I risk a subpoena from Chief Valinoti (and we know how tough HE can be). But, THANK YOU for that fantastic description of what it must have been like to drive something like old 6060. We took a few trips on the marvelous North York Moors Railway in Yorkshire and the steam train up Mt. Snowdon in Wales. Unforgettable.

Now, I just wonder whether any of our members have had the chance to fly 'The Spirit of St. Louis' ??

Thanks again,

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Tim in STL]

Since this is NOT off topic ,I guess it is safe to mention that, when I was a young kid meh brother and I rode the Spirit of Saint Louis several times from St. Louis to Columbus, OH. The way we boarded in Saint Louis we never got to see the engine.

Tim in STL

White O’morn NS26U #216

Harbor Point Yacht Club

West Alton, MO

[newelljc9]

Brian, your 30 is a much more substantial and a stiffer craft than my 26 when it had a wishbone rig. As a consequence, lines of sight forward were severely restricted and made even worse by a stack pack. I have been hit in our inner harbour by an International 14 on the run with spinnaker set at speed and under minimum control when I was "making steam". I would not want that to ever happen again, especially with a foiling boat that can hit 20 knots plus. As it was, the spinnaker pole just missed my wife's head. She was very lucky.  The annoying thing was that I had just spent a substantial amount of money having Mascouche completely refitted the previous winter. She still has the marks from the encounter.

The thread may not be relevant for 30's and larger, but I assure you it is for smaller fry, especially when fitted with a stack pack.

My sailing is much more relaxed now that I have a full 360 degrees in lines of sight, a boom that does not protrude into the cockpit and supported by lazy jacks as well as a fixed topping lift, a rig that is safe to gybe in most conditions and a mainsheet that is ahead of the dodger so it will not foul anything in the cockpit especially the crew and guests.

Regards,

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 10:15:30 AM UTC-4 peter farley wrote:

[grant staley]

Hi All,

Doubt I will make this change, but the topic caught my interest. Let me state outright that I don't know what I'm talking about and only am using my 'common sense'. Now let me prove I don't know...

Mine is a 33' NS, BTW.

The tack of the sail is held to the mast by a SS 'hoop' that encircles the mast. Judging from what I saw, It appears to be moveable and is clamped onto the mast by bolts at the tack connection. Ergo, it could be loosened and moved up the mast. If the mast narrows 300 cm up +/-,  shims perhaps could compensate for that smaller diameter.

That tack connection is secured to a beefy mounting plate (also the reefing blocks attach to it) that is attached to the deck. This connection is a common, adjustable piece with swivels top and bottom. A longer one would transfer the same load/security from tack to deck. 

Migrating those connections up the mast would necessitate shortening the sail track (besides recutting the sail in either fashion), losing some slides and refixing the keeper at the bottom of the slide. Pretty easy work there.

Seems pretty easy, so clearly I have missed the mark by a lot. I trust others will point that out. :-)

tried to post w pics, but didn't work. ????

Departure

NS 33 #63

Jacksonville, FL

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

This is an old conversation thread but if it interests you there is a recent addition to the Nonsuch Sailors and Enthusiasts Facebook page with a video of a 26 with a fathead sail.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/104618380180923/?multi_permalinks=1353394255303323%2C1351414862167929&notif_id=1697062961846813&notif_t=group_activity&ref=notif

Mark Powers

[newelljc9]

Here is the fathead (aka square top) design that North proposed for Mascouche. I had already committed to a gaff fathead sail and could not afford to develop both.

Like my gaff rig, it provides four feet clear between the boom and the deck.

Jorgen Moller at the helm of his electric Nonsuch "Pondus" sporting her standing gaff rig

Perhaps this is the ultimate fathead leaving Toronto!

John Newell

Mascouche 26C #1

Toronto