Halyard replacement

[Phil Harmeson]

I'm planning on replacing my original two main halyards on my 1985 U30. Specs are listed at 120' and 1/2" diameter. What are the current recommendations for the various brands and compositions? We do not race.

Phil Harmeson

Catharsis.

1985 NS30U #295

Traverse City, Mi

[(null) (null)]

Phil

A few years ago I replaced mine with a complete one from Mike Quill, also the main sheet. I am happy with them so far. Don’t know the exact line, spectra something. I do not race either.

Dave King

Suey, N22 Alameda CA

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[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Phil,

The most common lines non-racers buy for halyards are New England Ropes Sta-Set X, Samson XLS3, or Yale ULS Yacht Braid.

As far as I know, they're all more than strong enough and low enough stretch for your boat in the size you have in mind, and the only differentiator is which you can find at the lowest price in your area.

Those are by no means the only choices, but they're the most common and come from the three biggest and best known manufacturers.

These suggestions are generic;  you can go with any of these on pretty much any boat and be comfortable.  On the other hand, if you hear from an experienced N30 owner who sails under similar conditions to yours and likes something else, that might be better than my generic suggestions.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Bob -

Technical question, sort of. Today's lines are much improved over what was available in 1985. That in mind, do you think that, using one of those top brands that you've recommended, one could go with a slightly thinner rope than 1/2" ? 

I do realize that there is a line-handling/comfort factor involved here, especially being that it is the halyard. And, for non-racing (except the occasional round-the-cans), your choices are exactly the right type of rope (as opposed to a thin Dyneema, for instance).

But, what do you think about the diameter ?

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Cedric Guthrie]

Changing the diameter(for smaller) can/will result in rope clutches as fitted may NOT hold as well 

Also smaller diameter will not be as easy to haul up by hand

Also same  applies to self tailing winches not holding as well 

Safe Sailing & Stay SAfe

Cedric

Single Malt

26c #207

Chester 

Nova Scotia 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 20, 2021, at 11:55, Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bob -

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[Paul Miller]

I’m using Marlow Doublebraid 3/8” for my halyard. It seems to have a strength advantage over most of the others. It is working just fine on my self tailing winch and reduces friction everywhere else.

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[newelljc9]

Mascouche came with a 1/2" halliard when I bought her in 2006. It was obvious the weight of the halliard was sufficient to prevent a full sail drop. The weight of the rope suspended plus friction balanced the weight of the sail coming down. I switched to 3/8 low stretch line which is more flexible (reduced friction) which has allowed for clean drops ever since.  I raise sail by hand as far as I can then winch it up the rest of the way. The self tailing winch handles the 3/8" line. The only modification I have made is to move the halliard winch from outboard where it fouls the dodger to inboard next to the hatch . This lets the the handle rotate fully in both directions making full use of the two speed winch for faster sail raising and tensioning.

My T/L is 1/4" ran through a clutch which has never failed me. That is the smallest diameter line I use when they require being hauled by hand.

John Newell

Mascouche 26C 1

Toronto

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

Thanks for this good info, guys.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Ernie (and Phil),

I'm not a Nonsuch 30 expert.   (There is one in my marina, but the closest I've gotten to it was watching it sail away from me once and internally debating how much I love my 26 vs. would I like to have a bigger boat.  For the record, I'm sticking with my 26.)

I did a little research before writing this response, and was surprised to notice that the N30C manual specs a 7/16" halyard, while the N30U manual specs 1/2".  I'd love for a N30 guru to chip in and explain why.  Joe Valinoti, are you reading this?

IMHO, rope technology has improved enough that it's feasible to downsize a bit with the usual suspect products I mentioned.  I'd be conservative about going aggressively smaller with them.  If you want to go significantly smaller and lighter, you're probably getting interested in newer, higher tech.  

At 8,135 lbs breaking strength, the Marlow Doublebraid 3/8" that Paul M reports using on Sandpiper is comparable to the strength of the ropes I suggested, certainly lighter -- and pretty affordable. too.    I don't know how his sailing conditions compare to Phil's, but there's lots to be said for doing what works for others with the same boat.

Cedric's right that smaller lines may be hard to grip by hand.   If you use rope clutches, whether going smaller is a problem or not  likely depends on the age of the clutches.  Newer ones grip a wider range of line sizes.    I think it's pretty safe to bet that lines down to 5/16" will work with most clutches and self-tailers.  Below that, especially if using some of the high-tech slippery stuff, it might be worthwhile to check your hardware's specs and do some testing with a line sample.

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Joe Valinoti]

I’m sure you can go down a size with modern line and not have a strength problem.  Bob’s right, newer style clutches have a greater range of sizes.  Not sure what my halyard size is, but my sail drops like a rock and is easy to handle even though it runs through a clutch.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

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[Phil Harmeson]

Thanks for the feedback, boys. Exactly the kind of info I've come to expect from this illustrative group. BTW, Joe: What was the name of that Italian lemon liquor you served Mary and me a few years ago?

Phil Harmeson

Catharsis.  NS30U #295

Traverse City, Michigan

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Phil, 

here is a link to an article from Practical Sailor in 2010 about halyard selection that you might find interesting. Unfortunately they did not test Marlow rope.  Based on what I have been told and have been able to read, Marlow Double Braid polyester has less stretch than similar rope from other manufacturers. 

The manual fo the 26 calls for 3/8' but a previous owner had some up in size, I presume for less stretch or ease of handling. I used 3/8" Marlow for the halyard on La Reina for a while. I found I had to put an extra turn on the winch to keep it from slipping in the self tailing jaws of the winch. I found it tended to form hockles  more than the Yacht braid we first had. Paul Miller's experience with the Marlow has been better than mine.

I am now using rope with a dyneema core for the halyard. With the double braid polyester I found that as the wind picked up the halyard would stretch and scallops would start to form in the luff of the sail. We would head up into the wind and I would grind the halyard up tight to take them out but after a couple of minutes they would form in the sail again. With the dyneema core I have not had that issue. I have switched the choker lines over to dyneema as well. It allows me to flatten the sail more and it does not stretch and allow the sail to round out as the wind picks up.

Of course there are trade offs. I need the extra turn on the winch for the dyneema core. It twists and hockles more than the Yacht Braid of Stat-Set and it costs more. 

My hands are relatively small but a bit stiff so I would not go below 3/8" line. 

Here is a link to a chart that gives the equivalent measurements for metric and imperial fractions. decequiv.php

You will note that 3/8' comes out at 9.525 mm. As a result companies list  either 9 or 10 mm as the equivalent to 3/8".

As others have mentioned, if you have rope clutches you will need to see the range of ropes they will take. Spinlock will nornmally accommodate a wider range of sizes than Lewmars. I don't know about other manufactures clutches.

Mark Powers  

[Julie & Lloyd on Rendezvous]

Phil - in 2011, we downsized our halyard from 1/2" Stat-Set X to 7/16".  We don't use a clutch on it and made no change to the winch that I recall.  Before we downsized, I needed to pull the sail down  the last 1/3 of the way or so.  The first time I dropped the sail with the new halyard, the sail came all the way down and the halyard kept coming down and bounce on the deck, almost hitting me as I went forward to pull the sail down, just in case.

I am in the market for a new choker and Mark's comments above have me wondering it I should switch over to Dyneema core instead of just getting plain old Sta-Set, which is what reefing lines and topping lift are.

Lloyd Herman

Rendezvous, 30U

Port Washington, New York

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Lloyd,

Do you recall to which Sta-Set X you switched - Yacht Braid, Double Braid, Double Core Braid, etc? There seem to be quite the variety and of course a wide range of pricing on these...

Are you still using the same halyard that you switched to 10 years ago?

Thanks,

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 Ultra 430

Jersey City, NJ

[Julie & Lloyd on Rendezvous]

Peter - it has ben awhile and the invoice (from David James at the old Rigging Locker) does not say exactly which, but I believe it is double braid.

Still using it, although I may replace that soon as well given it is the one I must use to get to the top of the mast.

lloyd herman

Rendezvous, 30U

Port Washington, NY

[Peter Grabow]

Thank you Lloyd.

I will do my research/comparisons as things have changed in the last 10 years... and some have stayed the same.

It is probably time for me to replace the primary halyard, and move the old primary over to the secondary halyard position, and find use (towing?) for the old secondary halyard.

I also have to replace the short piece, - approximately 10' long - (mast padeye thru forward boom block, back to mast cheekblock and down to long choker line blocks) of the choker again (it has probably been 6 years?) as it is showing some signs of wear/fraying near the mast cheekblock.

I do not remember if the last halyard I received from Mike Quill was 7/16 or 1/2"... I do recall Mike saying that 7/16" would be fine for the halyard.