Anyone got a good sail clew lashing pic?

[INA President]

We are in smelling distance of being ready to publish the "Quick Guide for New Nonsuch Owners" that some dozen of us have been working on for a year.

One of the things we're missing to finish it off is a good picture of a properly lashed sail clew.

If anyone who has rigged their sail with a lashing between the clew and the tail end of the wishbone has a good high-quality picture of it, would you please email it to I...@nonsuch.org?

Thanks,

-- Bob

   Robert Neches

   Co-President, International Nonsuch Association

   Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233

   (with a lashed clew, but not done the conventional way we'd like to show in the guide)

[BRIAN CAYER]

Bob,

I already have the recent publication of the compilation you posted on the INA group recently. This sounds like this will be more than that excellent document, is that so?

Brian

Boat-less in New England 

On Nov 15, 2022, at 2:14 PM, 'INA President' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/e68b3686-2b8e-41d7-b10f-20afee8f26e1n%40googlegroups.com.

[ed.b...@gmail.com]

Hi Bob, here are a couple of pictures for you to consider.

 

I use a commercially available soft shackle as the primary link between the clew and the wishbone.  This started out as an experiment and has worked well for me for a couple of seasons. 

 

Because it was an experiment, I backed up the soft shackle with a secondary lashed piece of spectra (30 cm) that is normally loose and would only take up load if the soft shackle failed.  It also means that in an emergency I might  need to cut through two lines rather than one.  The picture also shows a third line with a snap shackle.  I use that to attach the aft end of the sail cover when not using the sail.  I will probably dispense with the backup next season; I now trust the soft shackle.

 

I am interested in thoughts and critique of my system from others even if you choose not to use the pictures.

 

 

--

[Michael Jabara]

I use a soft Dyneema shackle lashing, which replaced a pad-eye and stainless steel shackle.  Much happier with that.

I will forward when I’m at Hobbes II in a few weeks. 

Michael Jabara

Hobbes II 1995 NS 354

San Rafael, California

On Nov 15, 2022, at 11:14 AM, 'INA President' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



--

[jo...@deerhaven.ca]

I've got a really dumb question here. Why would you want the clew lashed at all. Mine is fastened with stainless steel shackles. Please enlighten me :)

john Vincent

Salem, 1983 NS26C #108

Picton, ON

[Don Crossley]

Hi,

I only have a soft shackle, wrapped twice around the clew so as to maximize the outhaul effect of the choker. I actually got it wrapped three times around the clew, but that was after this photo was taken, and sail is now off the boat for the winter.

Cheers,

Don

'87 NS30U #369 Breezin'

Vancouver, BC

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/037e01d8f930%24a4111900%24ec334b00%24%40gmail.com.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

There are no dumb questions, John - it's a good question.

Either Mark Ellis (who designed our boats) or Ed Botterill (who "designed" the sail) or BOTH called for the sail to be lashed. Lashing the sail allows the clew to twist and roll and move freely without being limited in movement. It also allows one to obtain the distance that they desire between the clew of the sail and the inner end of the boom.

And ..... as it's HUGE sail, a lash allows one to cut the lash line instantly in case of a problem. Like you, I started out with a shackle on my little NS22. One day, in a blow, the shackle gave up and  .... bang ..... flap flap flap. I, then, decided a lashing of Dyneema was safer and better and ... only later on ... did I discover that a lash was the preferred MO.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[BRIAN CAYER]

Has anyone got a sketch of the knot for the clue lash?

On Nov 15, 2022, at 3:43 PM, Don Crossley <doncr...@gmail.com> wrote:



Hi,

I only have a soft shackle, wrapped twice around the clew so as to maximize the outhaul effect of the choker. I actually got it wrapped three times around the clew, but that was after this photo was taken, and sail is now off the boat for the winter.

Cheers,

Don

'87 NS30U #369 Breezin'

Vancouver, BC

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 12:27 PM <ed.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Bob, here are a couple of pictures for you to consider.

 

I use a commercially available soft shackle as the primary link between the clew and the wishbone.  This started out as an experiment and has worked well for me for a couple of seasons. 

 

Because it was an experiment, I backed up the soft shackle with a secondary lashed piece of spectra (30 cm) that is normally loose and would only take up load if the soft shackle failed.  It also means that in an emergency I might  need to cut through two lines rather than one.  The picture also shows a third line with a snap shackle.  I use that to attach the aft end of the sail cover when not using the sail.  I will probably dispense with the backup next season; I now trust the soft shackle.

 

I am interested in thoughts and critique of my system from others even if you choose not to use the pictures.

 

 

 

From: 'INA President' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: November 15, 2022 2:14 PM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Anyone got a good sail clew lashing pic?

 

We are in smelling distance of being ready to publish the "Quick Guide for New Nonsuch Owners" that some dozen of us have been working on for a year.

 

One of the things we're missing to finish it off is a good picture of a properly lashed sail clew.

 

If anyone who has rigged their sail with a lashing between the clew and the tail end of the wishbone has a good high-quality picture of it, would you please email it to I...@nonsuch.org?

 

Thanks,

 

-- Bob

   Robert Neches

   Co-President, International Nonsuch Association

   Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233

   (with a lashed clew, but not done the conventional way we'd like to show in the guide)

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/e68b3686-2b8e-41d7-b10f-20afee8f26e1n%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/037e01d8f930%24a4111900%24ec334b00%24%40gmail.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/CACWLuht1wihY-aU6EcqDO8d3KXu-CQoAZe3MCBWbFqN1KMyp6Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ed S]

I can get a clew lash pic to you Thursday when I get to my boat.

Ed Strazzini 

PELICAN, N33#36

Deltaville,  VA

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 15, 2022, at 15:27, ed.b...@gmail.com wrote:



Hi Bob, here are a couple of pictures for you to consider.

 

I use a commercially available soft shackle as the primary link between the clew and the wishbone.  This started out as an experiment and has worked well for me for a couple of seasons. 

 

Because it was an experiment, I backed up the soft shackle with a secondary lashed piece of spectra (30 cm) that is normally loose and would only take up load if the soft shackle failed.  It also means that in an emergency I might  need to cut through two lines rather than one.  The picture also shows a third line with a snap shackle.  I use that to attach the aft end of the sail cover when not using the sail.  I will probably dispense with the backup next season; I now trust the soft shackle.

 

I am interested in thoughts and critique of my system from others even if you choose not to use the pictures.

 

 

<image001.png>

<image002.png>

 

From: 'INA President' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: November 15, 2022 2:14 PM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Anyone got a good sail clew lashing pic?

 

We are in smelling distance of being ready to publish the "Quick Guide for New Nonsuch Owners" that some dozen of us have been working on for a year.

 

One of the things we're missing to finish it off is a good picture of a properly lashed sail clew.

 

If anyone who has rigged their sail with a lashing between the clew and the tail end of the wishbone has a good high-quality picture of it, would you please email it to I...@nonsuch.org?

 

Thanks,

 

-- Bob

   Robert Neches

   Co-President, International Nonsuch Association

   Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233

   (with a lashed clew, but not done the conventional way we'd like to show in the guide)

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/e68b3686-2b8e-41d7-b10f-20afee8f26e1n%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/037e01d8f930%24a4111900%24ec334b00%24%40gmail.com.

[Joe Valinoti]

The problem, John, is that in an emergency, you can’t cut a shackle under load.  However, you can cut the lashing.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

 

From: jo...@deerhaven.ca

Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 3:41 PM

To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/df660bd2-8ae5-4e43-82fb-36325310ca3fn%40googlegroups.com.

[Don Crossley]

What emergency might arise that would require the cutting of the clew off the boom?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/610CAF6A19CA4E509BFC5F6F4EBF70A4%40DESKTOPAL8QCME.

[acco...@mpcg.ca]

Good Day All

 

 

I am not really sure that I should jump into this issue – however here goes.

 

Just recently asked  by John Vincent = why lash instead of shackle

 

I myself feel that this idea of lashing should not even be considered – have all of you supporting this lashing idea -  tried to hold the wishbone steady in any kind of a sea condition-  and standing up without assistance to enable you -to cut your lashing

 

Next time you are out in a slight sea way - try

 

I am sure the answer is it can’t be done-  hold the wishbone steady. And you standing up to cut.  Also please Google “ Cutting Dyneema” for some guidance on cutting  - that advice comes in with my experience of working with such material.

 

My next question is Do all of you “Lashers’ have knife/ or some kind of cutter strapped to the binnacle ? ready for use to tackle this impossible task!!

 

I have never heard/ seen/ sailed with/ any  serious cruisers/ racers work with anything but the clew being shackled.

 

This idea of lashing  should not be part  of any advice to would be / New owners

 

Our “Blog” certainly has posted several good suggestions in the  past but this is certainly not sage advice.

 

Safe Sailing

 

Cedric  - Single Malt – 26C # 207

 

Chester Nova Scotia

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/CACWLuhsacdnYhpgrU6k_LTx%2BXXO_ByVH4EmEi1kJDvDrc7ch_A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ernie Abugov N22 - #56 "Moustaches" Toronto]

I (and, likely, most other members of this group) are open to change and Cedric makes good points. Still, I would like to know that IF I had to, I could seperate the clew from the boom.

But ....... did anyone really insist that the line had to be Dyneema or Spectra ?? Probably not. If the philosophy leans toward "if in real trouble, cut the line" (as in: keep boltcutters handy to cut the standing rigging on a "rigged" mast) ..... well, Cedric makes a good point. The line should not be Spectra (it should be easily "cutable") and, yes, a good knife should be handy, in a safe place. If the line is conventional rope, it should be part of our checklists to, indeed, check it for fraying, etc., from time to time. Just like the choker lines and tackle.

True, I would not like to be flailing around, trying to grab the end of the boom, etc. Another very good point. But, if you need to ....... at least, you can try (without going into the drink).

This needs further comment and thought and I welcome the opinions of other more experienced Nonsuchers (and, just maybe, the voice of anyone who had to go through this exercise of cutting the lashing).

It is snowing up here in Toronto - how absolutely horrible. Arrrrghhhhh !!!!

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Neil Raynor]

Cedric,

Thanks for the highlights.  Good food for thought.

I feel we are getting into a “which is the best anchor” conversation and not necessarily bad to have a divergence of view (you pays yer money and you makes yer choice) but - even as a newbie - I respectfully disagree.  

Yes I’m sure it’s going to be difficult under the circumstances you describe.  I think getting a shackle off is going to be even more challenging.

So on a risk reward basis I would go with the soft shackle/lashing idea.  I’ve done it now for two seasons and have gone the same route on the chocker.

And yes I do have my sailing knife strapped to my belt.  And there is a second one in the cabin - no real need for two except like my glasses the one I’m trying to find before going sailing is always somewhere else.  As someone else said recently, cheap insurance.

Best regards

Neil Raynor

NS26C #149

Collins Bay, Kingston

(although today under our first snow fall in Ottawa)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/001101d8f9cd%24bd86a740%243893f5c0%24%40mpcg.ca.

[ed.b...@gmail.com]

The other reason for using a soft shackle or lash is wear and tear.  SaSeaCat’s previous owner(s) used SS shackles to attach the clew to the wishbone.  The result was the hole for the clew in the aluminum casting on SaSeaCat was worn into an oval to the point I was concerned about its integrity.  Mike Quill sold us a repair kit. 

 

A soft shackle allows the sail to move without wearing the casting or the clew ring.  Of course, inspecting the soft shackle periodically is a good practice.  I have used the same shackle for two seasons now, no sign of wear.  And yes, I keep a knife at the binnacle.  But I take Cedric’s point, my attempt to cut the shackle in rough conditions would likely result in my amputating my other hand immediately before immersing myself in Lake Huron. 

 

Great discussion,

…..Ed

 

Ed and Marlene Brost

SaSeaCat, NS30322

Sarnia Yacht Club

Ed.b...@gmail.com

519 312-8650

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/4DE93923-13C5-491B-8344-029A6D6D106E%40gmail.com.

[Neil Raynor]

Cedric,

I’m doing some winter ordering today and was consulting the 26C manual on other stuff.  Although I’ve heard reference to Hinterhoeller recommending that the clew be “lashed” to the end of the Wishbone I hadn’t seen it in writing.  

But when I opened my book there it was in the 26C Sail Plan & Specs. (Attached)

Moreover, when I looked in the 26U book it has the same comment ("Clew: Lashed to end of wishbone”) on pg. 41.1 (Sail Plan Specs).

I haven’t checked the other manuals.

Cheers, Neil

NS26C, #149

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/001101d8f9cd%24bd86a740%243893f5c0%24%40mpcg.ca.

[theen...@comcast.net]

Chester puts up a good argument but, I believe lashing is the way to go.  I use webbing as my lashing preference as it is strong and easy to cut.  Of course there is a cutter nearby.  I keep one in my propane locker.  I know that nothing else should go in the propane locker but I have chosen to put a sharp knife in there along with my emergency whistle and a flash light. 

 

A previous incident where a crew member drove the boat into a day marker causing the sail to wrap around the marker with a wind blowing us against the marker.  Please don’t send me hate mail because of this as I know I was the captain and that should not have happened.  There was an immediate need to remove sail but the first obstacle was the tack shackle.  It was the screw pin type with a wire to keep the pin on.  A tool was needed to get the wire off and then found that the pin was frozen to the main body of the shackle.  This required another trip to the tool box to get a pair of pliers.   I already had strapping on the clew and that just took a flashing second in time to cut.

 

Now, both the clew and the tack are lashed on.

 

I am not sure why the use of lashing is of concern as it accomplishes exactly what hardware does except that it is easier to remove. 

 

Regarding the awkwardness of working at the end of the wishbone, is not it the same effort or more to remove a shackle as it is to cut a lashing?  Just sayin…….

 

It is good to talk about these things, isn’t it?

 

Cheers,

 

Butch

 

 

Butch Garren

Nonsuch 30 #196  “Whiskers II”

SIYC Slip 12

Solomons, MD

 

 

 

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Neil Raynor
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 12:20 PM
To: 'INA President' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone got a good sail clew lashing pic?

 

Cedric,

 

I’m doing some winter ordering today and was consulting the 26C manual on other stuff.  Although I’ve heard reference to Hinterhoeller recommending that the clew be “lashed” to the end of the Wishbone I hadn’t seen it in writing.  

 

But when I opened my book there it was in the 26C Sail Plan & Specs. (Attached)

 

Moreover, when I looked in the 26U book it has the same comment ("Clew: Lashed to end of wishbone”) on pg. 41.1 (Sail Plan Specs).

 

I haven’t checked the other manuals.

 

Cheers, Neil

NS26C, #149

 

 

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/74989D23-9F2D-4E93-8172-13E0CC8F1183%40gmail.com.

[Bill Wickett EX-22 #38 Makin' Time]

Hi Bob,

On the 22 I used 4mm dyneema, wrapped 4 times, adjusted for length, then tied off with 10 or so hitches. I think on the larger boats, 6mm would be fine.  Not sure if this image will work for you. You can crop and edit as required. 

Regards,

Bill Wickett

[BRIAN CAYER]

Bill,

Yours is the picture I saved in my Boats folder.

Brian

Boat-less in New England 

On Nov 16, 2022, at 2:52 PM, Bill Wickett EX-22 #38 Makin' Time <bill...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/b14e29a1-bcbf-4442-a449-eca2ef5dd003n%40googlegroups.com.

[Herb Huber]

When I bought Mistoffelees the previous owner had used a steel shackle to attach the clew to the wishbone. Besides discovering the wear it was creating on the sides of the wishbone, more important to me was that it was bringing the sail to far back causing the roach to constantly hang up on the topping lift line. When I used lashing to created more distance between the clew and the stern end of the wishbone, I also had to adjust the front pennant choker line where it attaches to the pad eye on the mast by a ratio of 2:1. Thankfully the length of the foot on my sail was just right so that with full choker pulled on there was still room enough between the mast & the forward end of the wishbone.

Herb G. Huber, Mistoffelees 30C#91, Bridgeview Marina, Point Edward/Sarnia, Ontario

Lake Huron Nonsuch Association

[JohnS]

No, but in 2021, when bending on the sail, I erred and forgot the tack shackle at home. A bit of thin line from the “random short bits of rope” bag got us through the year without issues.

Does that count for anything??

John Stewart ns26c 46 Bath On

[Nick C.]

I was reminded of another advantage of lashing last month. I was bending on my repaired sail and had it laid out in the stack pack and over the dodger frame and was hauling away trying to pull it back to attach. The sail on a 33 is heavy! But when I started on my lashing (small line, 7-8 mm I think) and got to the 3rd or 4th trip from the choker shackle to the clew cringle the mechanical advantage made it easy to bring it back. I have used 5-6 wraps for years now and have had no problems, and can adjust easily if needed.

Nick C.

Nonsuch 33 #51

Washington, NC

[Brian M. Godfrey]

Hi Nick,
   I am negotiating to buy a Nonsuch 33 and would need to have it trucked.  That means taking the mast down and sails off and such.  So about how much does that sail weigh?  Do you think one person can get it down and into the cabin or would it take two?  (Or more?)
   Thanks,

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/c8e4922b-b31a-40cf-9e68-6afd7a42c996n%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Jabara]

Brian,

My 354 is the same sail size as the 33. Mine weighs ~60 lbs without battens, but I have 10oz Challenge Marblehead cloth, which is pretty heavy. Particularly lugging it up to the 2nd floor sail lofts. 

For me it's definitely a much easier two man job, but I'm an old (just turned 70) guy lol.

Michael Jabara
Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354 
San Rafael, CA

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/4192c9c2-a55f-991f-288e-5378b91038fb%40wildbirdshop.com.

[Ken Dakin]

My sail is the same about 8 years old; I remove it annually for winter storage purposes. Folded on the boat, it might be bulky to get through the cabin companionway. I have never. I take it down the dock, bagged in a cart to my car, than home. At home, I can spread it full length, flake and fold it much flatter than on the boat. It still a bear for two people but manageable.

Ken Dakin

NS 33 #7

Sashay

Kingston ON

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 17, 2022, at 2:23 PM, Michael Jabara <mja...@redrockpartners.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/CAJMUMffPZSZJHJ-TzmHdfH%2BAKRMNFA1zGGim6vwMofri7j8Dow%40mail.gmail.com.

[Nick Chappell]

I do what Ken does for removal and folding. Just can’t get that bear to cooperate properly on the boat. Seems like more than 60 pounds and very  awkward. 

Nick C. 

NS  33 51

Washington, NC

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 17, 2022, at 2:56 PM, Ken Dakin <kend...@gmail.com> wrote:

My sail is the same about 8 years old; I remove it annually for winter storage purposes. Folded on the boat, it might be bulky to get through the cabin companionway. I have never. I take it down the dock, bagged in a cart to my car, than home. At home, I can spread it full length, flake and fold it much flatter than on the boat. It still a bear for two people but manageable.

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "INA Nonsuch Discussion Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/rZFX7wy4h2U/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/8A5E8076-ADBA-4D7C-AC0D-3F650DE4E213%40gmail.com.

[Phil Harmeson]

The original hole that held the shackle on the wishbone (that connects with the clew ) has elongated due to wear. Why couldn't I use a Dyneema  wrap with a shackle around the end of the wishbone? It would simply be a matter of connecting the shackle to the clew. At the end of the season the shackle is removed from the sail and remains on the end of the wishbone. My boat and wishbone is stored indoors.

Phil Harmeson

Catharsis.

1985 U30

Traverse City, Michigan

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Hi Phil -

What you are proposing is one of many adapted variations, using a short piece of Dyneema, that provides 100% of flexibility at the clew, will last for years, uses no metal and will stop the wear on the hole in the stern casting of the boom.

On BOTH front and back of the boom, you'll find a hole in the casting. In the front, this is where the boom choker block attaches to. In the back, ultimately, it's where the sail clew ring attaches. In both cases, on my former NS 22, the holes were really worn. At the front of the boom, basically, I took a 2' length of (1/4" or 3/16" ?? I forget but it's DAMN strong) and , after removing the shackle from the hole, I passed the Dyneema through the hole and right around the casting and back through the hole. Now, I have 2 ends coming out the hole. I then loop both ends of the Dyneema though the Becket of the choker block and tie a few serious knots (and maybe throw a stitch in as knots in Dyneema can loosen). In short, I tied the choker block to the front of the boom. The force is on the FRONT of the casting as the Dyneema wraps around the casting but the old, beaten up hole ONLY serves to keep the line centred. NB - if the hole is chafed up and has any sharp edges, those surfaces should be smoothed so they don't chafe the Dyneema. At the back of the boom, same deal. I end up tying the clew ring of the sail to the back of the boom. NO shackle. It has always been recommended to lash the clew to the boom for flexibility (and for, possibly, being able to cut the lash, in a pinch). At the back, I'd use a 3' length and, if necessary, wrap it through twice Or even 3 times). As long as the line goes around the entire casting, it'll work (for years).

I've attached a couple of things that MAY help. In the photo, the lashing still goes through a shackle in that hole at the back of the boom. In the end, out came the shackle and, like at the front, there's nothing but Dyneema.

Best,

Ernie A. in Toronto

 

[doncr...@gmail.com]

I’ve been simply using a soft shackle, passed thru the hole in the boom, then wrapped around the clew ring 2-3 times, to make it as short as possible. This year I remembered to do this before attaching the sail at the mast track, so it was a little easier to get at.

Don

’87 NS30U #369 - Breezin’

Vancouver, BC

 

 

 

From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"
Sent: May 20, 2024 1:00 PM
To: INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone got a good sail clew lashing pic?

 

Hi Phil -

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/82a9cec7-4be8-4596-b744-18eece55e0efn%40googlegroups.com.

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

The last couple posts have done a really nice job of laying out options.

The key thing, whichever way it's done, is to look at your set-up to ensure that you're minimizing chafe.  IMHO.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

   Looking forward to seeing folks in Toronto:
        https://nonsuch.org/2024-INA-International-Rendezvous-Status

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

I agree, Bob.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Blake Payette "Procyon" N33 Vancouver BC]

This old thread came up at a very good time. While I was checking why my running lights on the mast weren't working (corroded bulb socket) I noticed that the choker tackle block on the wishbone seems to have completely lost its sheave and the rope is running on the axle pin. It also seems that the hole is elongated as others have mentioned. It looks like I will be lashing the new block to the boom casting as suggested above.

[(null) (null)]

This is an SMC locking D carabiner rated at 25000kg. After the old hardware parted I considered dyneema and other options, then remembered my box of old rock climbing gear. The Carabiner has been there for about a year and  has been tested by considerable winds. It is is made of alloy. I call this a King hack. So far so good.

Dave King

Suey

N22 #35. Alameda CA

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/ad42409c-10af-47e0-a47e-65cea1c0dcaan%40googlegroups.com.

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

David -

What is being discussed here is not some immensely strong method of attaching things to the either boom end. You are quite correct - that carabiner will pull your house, no doubt. What we are discussing is how to keep those two silly holes, one at each end of the boom, from getting abraded, eventually elongating and actually opening up, a "no fun" experience in the midst of a bracing sail (or anytime, actually).

Many of us have found that metal bolts (like what your photo shows) that go through the hole WILL, for sure, wreck that hole. What will save it (and allow the END of the boom to to take the load, NOT just the hole) is to use a short length of Dyneema in the manner that I recently described a little ways back. The Dyneema goes through the hole and around the outside of the casting and back through the hole.

By keeping metal out of those holes, you'll save the existing holes.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[BRIAN CAYER]



Ernie’s response to Dave about the metal to metal wear on the boom end castings is true in my opinion if the metal parts are working upon each other. In the picture shown with the eyebolt passing thru and secured to the casting hole moves the wear to the eye bolt and the carabiner. The cast aluminum is spared any abrasion by the fact that the eyebolt is transferring the wear point. The only question would be if the thickness of the casting can bear the off center load. In my opinion because of its thickness .

Brian C

Spirit~Wind

N30U 419

Westbrook,Ct

On May 21, 2024, at 3:19 PM, Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches" <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

David -

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/beb84ffa-b2cd-425b-ae49-f573737d477fn%40googlegroups.com.

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

I take your point, Brian.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

The devil's in the details.  

If the ring bolt is precisely sized to the hole, and the fastening nut is absolutely secure so that no movement can occur, and  there is no corrosion occurring between the stainless and the aluminum, then I agree with Brian that Dave's connection will work out.  In the meantime, however, the carabiner will beat up the rest of the mast fitting.

If the connections aren't perfect, then Ernie's accurately describing the potential problems.  In either case, he's also on point about the primary thrust of the thread.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

My feeling is that you cannot go wrong with a soft (Dyneema) connection to/through a hole in a CAST aluminum component  (originally designed to be ultra strong, which it isn't). The holes in the castings at the front and back of the boom are literally begging to be enlarged, misshapen and, ultimately, torn open by putting bolts, shackles, or anything metallic through them. Also,in this particular case, you get to use the unbeatable strength of the entire casting due to the Dyneema being wrapped around the casting. True, one day, even the Dyneema may fail but it'll take years and you'll bask in the peace that comes with knowing that you are not wrecking those darn holes in the castings themselves.

This design was fine when first introduced but, in time, we've all had failures due to its weak points. 

This is life (and Nonsuchery). We discuss, we change, we improve, we learn. Several feet of Dyneema (that will support 10,000 lbs. +) costs $3.00. Well worth it. In this case, it allows one to lash items and provides unparalled flexibity. It allows you to sail with more confidence i.e. your shackles won't bust and wreck your day. When I used to work in theatre production, we all knew that the theatre, in general, was held together by masking tape. IMHO, a sailboat (while not held together by Dyneema) can be vastly improved by the use of this this very strong and supple line in so many applications.

Using Dyneema allows you to GRIN !!!  (Full disclosure - While I wish that I held some sort of financial interest in the "Dyneema Company", sadly, I don't.)

All of that said ........ I still get a BIG kick out of the differences in opinions and the sheer volume of good info and experience that shows up in these discussions. Brilliant.

This is a cool group. Thanks, everyone.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Robin Bigio]

When I got my boat a couple of year ago I found an eyebolt and nut plus shackle. The aluminum casting was pretty corroded to I removed everything and installed what's in the pictures. Currently it's two parts, one lashing to the clew and one bridle, I've been thinking that in the next iteration I might simplify it to just a single line that does both jobs. The bridle is essentially a loop with a "lover's" knot.

I hope this helps.

Robin Bigio
robin...@gmail.com

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/2b75d16e-3f2b-476d-9a82-4f2e803f3150n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Robin -

There are many ways to do this and you certainly have found a perfect one. It's all lashed, one way or the other, and the force is transmitted to the back of casting, not just that hole.

Perfecto, skipper.

Ernie A. in Toronto

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to INA-Nonsuch-Discussi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/2b75d16e-3f2b-476d-9a82-4f2e803f3150n%40googlegroups.com.

[Paul Miller]

When I bought Sandpiper she had already had stainless steel mounting hardware installed on both ends of the boom so wear is not an issue for me. The clew was fastened with a twisted shackle which failed on my sea trial sail …… but I bought her anyway.

I now have a Dyneema lashing consisting of several loops secured by multiple half hitches and covered with tape to reduce sun exposure. I like the ability to change the length to suit bimini clearance or sail flatness.

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.