Carbon fiber boom

[jamesp...@aol.com]

The 35/5 Nonsuch had a carbon fiber boom I just read that on the website on one of sales .   Does anyone know well it works and how much less the boom weights compared to the original one. And can I buy one for a my 33  if I could change something this is it. Please let me know Jim Moores NS/33/41 Arawak  Beaufort NC

[Michael Jabara]

jim,

I have a 1995 354 equipped with a carbon fiber mast and boom and is based upon the NS 33 hull and mold. (there is no 35/5), 

Both the mast and boom work great. The boom in particular is stout and holds up well to the up to 40kt blows we get in San Francisco. Others who have looked at it said it was way over engineered due to excessive carbon fiber thickness for the stresses put on it; maybe because CF was so new in 1995...

I do not have the weight, but someone said earlier I believe that the weight was about 1/3 of the prior aluminum boom.

Hope that helps...

Michael Jabara

Hobbes II - 1995 NS 354

San Rafael, California

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 5:10 PM 'jamesp...@aol.com' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

The 35/5 Nonsuch had a carbon fiber boom I just read that on the website on one of sales .   Does anyone know well it works and how much less the boom weights compared to the original one. And can I buy one for a my 33  if I could change something this is it. Please let me know Jim Moores NS/33/41 Arawak  Beaufort NC

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

James, the carbon masts and booms are still available from Composite Engineering: custom-composite-design-manufacture

Here is an excerpt from an article on their web site. 

"The line of Nonsuch Catboats  switched from aluminum to our carbon spars in 1992.  ...  The carbon masts and wishbone boom were half the weight and twice the strength.  At 30′ heel the boat had 15% more righting moment so mast height was increased by nearly 1 meter.  The boat came alive in light air and had increased drive when the wind picked up.  The masts were designed to have the same bend characteristics so the same sails could be used."

I have no idea how much they sell for.

I stand to be corrected but I believe Mark Ellis felt a carbon fibre boom especially on the larger modes was a good idea. The weight savings on the small models was not considered sufficient to justify making a switch.  A number of years ago I saw a brief discussion about a Nonsuch 260 (carbon fibre boom) that failed.    That is the only failure of  carbon boom that I have read about.

Mark Powers

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

I interviewed Mark Ellis in early 2020 for an article on Nonsuch 36s which appeared in Good Old Boat magazine's Sept/Oct 2020 (available from the magazine or downloadable on the members side of the INA website).  The notes from that interview were published in the Winter 2021 INA Update, pp. 11-13.

I can't speak to all of Ellis' opinions on carbon fiber, but I can report that he considered it to be the major technical development since the Nonsuches were designed that he would take into account if re-designing them today. 

However, the point he made then that I found extremely interesting was that, if redesigning today based on new technology and lessons learned, he considered carbon fiber wishbones more important than carbon fiber booms.  

Note that these comments were in the context of a discussion of the general suitability of the boats beyond coastal cruising, and thus we were talking about safety as opposed to performance considerations.  Thus, they may not represent the full range of his opinions.

However, it's worth noting the basis of the remark.   What he said was that the momentum of a swinging wishbone and the consequent forces encountered when rigging brought it to a halt was truly significant.  Therefore, reducing the weight of the wishbone would be the biggest thing he could do to further improve the integrity of the rig.

That said, I have the interesting opportunity to compare the masts on 26s.  My previous boat, N26C #143, had an all-aluminum rig.  A previous owner of my current boat, N26U #233, replaced its mast with carbon fiber but retained its original aluminum wishbone.  I haven't had it long enough to report hard numbers, but I can certainly report impressionistically that it sails a bit flatter and faster, and that I find myself reefing at a knot or two higher winds than previously.  This even though the previous boat actually had newer sails and running rigging.

-- Bob

    Me Gusta

    Nonsuch 26U #233

[James Moores]

well I called today to Custom-composite design-manufacture and spoke Bob didn't get his last name .we spoke for about a hour and he told me that the aluminum and carbon don't like each other that some of the early booms they used the original cap ends but that when wind would blow over them the carbon creates a small amount of electricity that eats the metal? So the newer way is to make the total boom with ends all carbon  i submitted a request on line for a price. I know it won't be cheep but there is only one thing that I would change on my Nonsuch is the boom!! I still want the wishbone  not a strait one ,but Carbon.  I will let you know what the hole story after I hear back. it might sound crazy but if I could loose half the boom weight or more  that would be a game changer.      ! thank you all for your help I want to specially thank  Bob Gusta, Mark Powers and Michael Jabara
for your help and inspiration.   Jim Moores NS33/41 Arawak

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Please keep posting on this, Jim.  A number of us would love to hear more about this topic.

I, for one, am particularly interested in all the details of cost, weight, delivery time, shipping logistics, etc. in addition to performance and appearance.

-- Bob (Neches, not Gusta)

   Sailing on Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233

[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

At the Boston Rendezvous years ago 2 Nonsuch 26's sailed together a  carbon fibre and an aluminum masted boat.  The carbon fibre boat was stiffer and required earlier reefing, and overall it was felt the aluminum boat was faster. But  other factors such as sail age, helmsman and bottom condition make that judgment a bit of a guess.  What was obvious was the aluminum mast was bendier and handled gusts better...falling off and heading up...

Less weight aloft is a good thing....

T

[Steve O'Malley]

Thank you for the posts on this.  Does anyone know if the carbon fiber needed earlier reefing despite less weight aloft because of taller mast or greater sail area?  If so, does anyone have experience or info performance with a carbon fiber mast and wishboom with identical height and sail area as the aluminum.  From these posts it seems as though the carbon fiber wishboom with aluminum mast may be the sweet spot.

Thank you

Steve O’Malley

1985 N26C #172 ANU

Marblehead, MA

[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Steve,

I'm not sure there's enough experience yet to draw firm conclusions.  I hope this discussion continues, and more sailors chip in.

In my case, I had a 26C with aluminum mast and boom for about four years and now have a 26U with carbon fiber mast and aluminum boom that I've been sailing for a few months.

Except for test sailing my new boat once in Northern California's San Francisco Bay's blustery conditions (wind varied from 10-22 kts during the sail), all of my sailing has been in Southern California's Santa Monica Bay.  Winds encountered while sailing down here have ranged between 8-17 kts across different days (one thing about this area, whatever wind speed you get on given day, it's generally pretty steady the entire time).

My limited experience so far is the opposite of what Thor reported observing.  I think my boat with the carbon fiber mast heels a bit less, needs reefing later, and takes gusts better.  To the best of my knowledge, my old and new boats' masts are the same height.  My impression is that the new boat's sail has a bit more roach than the old, but my previous boat had newer sails.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch 26U #233

[KENNETH VERHAEREN]

I looked into a new set of carbon fiber booms about three years ago.  Replacement booms from Mike Quill about $7000.00.  I also talked to a person from Composite Engineering.  Very interesting discussion about what happened. Seems that the mast were shorter in the first generation of design.  They proved to be stronger and lighter than expected and the feeling was a larger mast would be better.  I believe 1 to 2 feet as memory serves me.  If I also wanted a mast, I could have either size.  In anywise the booms were $21000.00

Ken Verhaeren

Kismet U30 #398

DuSable Harbor, Chicago

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[Mike]

Just thinking outside the box here. What about making a boom out of PVC tubing and fittings? Standard PVC will probably be too weak if used alone. But, filling a 3 or 4 inch PVC tube with some type of structural foam to increase it's overall strength might work. PVC tube can be bent slightly with judicious use of heat to approximate the boom curve.  Plus it is available just about everywhere.  Might be an interesting and cheap experiment to try for those with some time on their hands.

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

biankablog.blogspot.com 

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[Gary Forster]

I wonder if a "group" purchase of a boom would impact the cost. Jim? 

[ed.b...@gmail.com]

A group purchase sounds promising. 

 

Carbon fibre technology is advancing and prices improving.  $2,100 US is a bit of a stretch for me.  But that price was 3 years ago.  Maybe the price is lower today (inflation??) and maybe a bulk order might bring the price down.

 

Reinforced PVC sounds like a good idea.  My preference would be to stick with proven technology, carbon fibre, rather than become part of a research project using reinforced PVC.  The wishbone is a critically important structural, safety, and  performance component of our rig. 

 

…..Ed

 

 

Ed and Marlene Brost

SaSeaCat, NS30322

Sarnia Yacht Club

Ed.b...@gmail.com

519 312-8650

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[Mariner's Cat V 26C Brentwood Bay BC]

PVC pipe can not be exposed to sun. In thickness sufficient to be used it would be as heavy as aluminum.

[Mike BIANKA]

Thor:

I've seen PVC used outside of buildings in warm locales like Key West. They are also used in window frames exposed to the outside.  My boats low cost PVC ladder extension has been exposed to full sunshine at least six months every year since 2007 and is still holding up well. 

https://biankablog.blogspot.com/2007/01/boarding-ladder-extension.html

Though your point is a good one that can addressed easily with painting the boom, with some type of fabric cover or at a minimum something like Protectant 303 https://amzn.to/3kSlzms which could be easily applied . Though the cost of a PVC boom replacement could make replacement every few years an option too.  

The 7/16" Sta Set main sheet on a Nonsuch 30 has a breaking strength of 6000 pounds. The tensile strength of four inch schedule 80 PVC tube has a tensile strength of 5820 lbs which I think could be improved by filling the interior of the tube with some type of foam to add rigidity and strength.  I think it would still be lighter than the original aluminum booms though probably not as light as carbon fiber. Still it could be easily fabricated. 

As I said I'm just thinking outside the box. Still it seems like  something that could be experimented with at a very low cost compared to the cost of a new aluminum or Carbon Fiber boom. 

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

[10464...@gmail.com]

Carbon fiber or PVC shipping cost could be expensive, especially for 30's and larger.

Bob D

30c