Sail removal

[Discovery Sailing]

I am about to have my first experience removing a Nonsuch 26 sail.

The sail is zipped into a Doyle Stackpack.  Both sail and stackpack have battens which I can remove but beyond that I'm not clear.  I assume I need another person, as I am 81.

I would really appreciate advice!

Dave DeWolfe

NS26C #150  Ascension

Marriotts Cove NS

[Mike BIANKA]

Dave

I just removed the sail on my 30U and bagged it the other day by myself while the boat was at the mooring. Though I am a bit younger than you it went ok.  I have a big sail bag where I can just stuff the sail into it until I get it home and properly fold it on the lawn. It's always useful to have help but, I've done it myself since 1995 with no problem.

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Dave -

Yup, first, pull the battens. 

I am MUCH, much younger than you (at 76.5), right ?? And, until very recently, sailed a much smaller boat, an NS 22. And ..... I always struggled with my damn sail until I, very wisely, asked a buddy for help. 

I, like Mike, would do my best to "bag the thing up, somehow" at my slip (not at a mooring - that's a little more complicated - at least, I was able to use a dock cart), Then, I'd get it to clean spot on the club lawn and fold it properly, etc. Even folding the sail nice and smartly is WAY easier with help.

What also happened to me (when I did this task solo) is that I ended up tearing my sail cover as I tried to simply drop the sail into the cover, stuff it (with great difficulty and mucho bad language and buckets of sweat) into a large-ish dock cart and roll it up onto the lawn. 

Bottom line - it was a bitch of a task to do by my 5'6" self. It was SO much easier with a buddy even if the buddy knew NOTHING about what was going on. You just need some beef, not brains (though brains do help, it must be said).

That sail is big and heavy-ish - get help. Save your body (and your sail). We all know that Mike is a veritable Superman. This is one of the many reasons that we admire him (not just because he went electric eons ago and has never regretted it). 

This task is a drudge - Did I mention that I feel it's a good idea to get help ???

PS - Very seriously, make dead certain that the sail is BONE DRY before you bag it up. Even if that entails motoring around on a dry windless day to dry it out. Otherwise .....  mildew and mould. Not nice.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Cedric Guthrie]

Ernie. It is NOT essential to first remove battens especially with a stack pack

Safe Saling

Cedric Single Malt

26C # 207

Chester Nova Scotia 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 5, 2023, at 09:42, Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches" <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dave -

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[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Cedric -

In order to make the removal of a honkin' big sail a little easier, I would remove the battens (a quick job) while the sail is lying there, still attached to the mast. This is as opposed to removing the sail from the mast, etc., with the battens still installed (and they may be full battens, to boot) and, somehow, dealing with all of this until you can lay the sail out on the lawn to properly flake it.

Like, what am I missing here ?? 

Ernie A. in Toronto

[BRIAN CAYER]

Please inform a new owner of a N30U ( :-) )  further concerning sail removal.

How often do Nonsuchers remove the sail on the hard and is that a bad idea?

Brian Cayer

SV N30U

Sprit~Wind ( was Cimarron )

Deep River CT

On Oct 5, 2023, at 5:11 PM, Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches" <ernest...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cedric -

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[alst...@aol.com]

The sail comes off MagnifiCat every fall, just completed last week.  Yes, it’s a bit of a struggle but usually the Admiral is available to help.  Battens out first, sail bundled up as best we can into a handcart on the slip and then into the back of the car.  Once home and weather co-operative, spread out on the asphalt driveway, folded and stored for winter or, if necessary, off to the sai loft for any repairs.

Alan Steward

30C #144 MagnifiCat

Loyalist Cove Marina,

Bath, Ontario 

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[BRIAN CAYER]

 Thanks Alan, sounds perfect. 

What about on the hard before the weather comes in 

                    

Brian Cayer

SV Sprit~Wind N30U (was Cimarron )

Deep River CT

On Oct 5, 2023, at 6:24 PM, 'alst...@aol.com' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 The sail comes off MagnifiCat every fall, just completed last week.  Yes, it’s a bit of a struggle but usually the Admiral is available to help.  Battens out first, sail bundled up as best we can into a handcart on the slip and then into the back of the car.  Once home and weather co-operative, spread out on the asphalt driveway, folded and stored for winter or, if necessary, off to the sai loft for any repairs.

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[alst...@aol.com]

If you’re up on the hard, boat in the cradle, then the same method will work, it’s just farther to fall and a lot harder than hitting the water

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[BRIAN CAYER]

Alan

Yes but a lot easier to load into a vehicle parked next to the stern do you think?

Brian 

On Oct 5, 2023, at 6:44 PM, 'alst...@aol.com' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 If you’re up on the hard, boat in the cradle, then the same method will work, it’s just farther to fall and a lot harder than hitting the water

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[alst...@aol.com]

I see your point, but you’re still one slip away from a broken neck.  If you’re already on the hard, you don’t have much choice, in the water, I have the risk of a 2 - 3 ft fall onto the slip or a 4 - 5 ft fall into the water.  On the hard, have the risk of a 8 - 10 ft fall onto concrete. I’m 85 years old, a scallop like that could seriously interrupt my sailing fun.

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[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Seriously, Brian, I would never, ever drop the sail (or the boom, for that matter) when the boat is on the hard because it is patently unsafe. The fall will kill you or change your life in the worst way. It is one thing to carefully navigate your decks when the boat is on the hard. It is a whole other ball game to suddenly have to lunge a bit or place any part of your body in an awkward position in order to "accomplish something" when you are way up there, possibly getting snared on lifelines, being flipped and using your head as a fender. Just check out some pumpkins a few days afer Halloween.

Not worth the risk.

Ernie A. in toronto

[alst...@aol.com]

Hey Brian,

How do you think us old guys got to be old guys ??

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[BRIAN CAYER]

Alan/Ernie

Probably buy coloring within the lines yes?

Brian

On Oct 5, 2023, at 7:43 PM, 'alst...@aol.com' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 Hey Brian,

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[Brian M. Godfrey]

   Nah.  Coloring between the lines would be buying a power boat at age 65.

--Brian M. Godfrey
  br...@wildbirdshop.com

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[BRIAN CAYER]

Well at age 75.9 with a bad back I bought a …

Brian Cayer

SV Spirt~Wind

N30U formally Cimarron 

Deep River, CT

On Oct 5, 2023, at 8:34 PM, Brian M. Godfrey <br...@wildbirdshop.com> wrote:

    Nah.  Coloring between the lines would be buying a power boat at age 65.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/9c59432e-f9f7-4c4a-a257-34597d3cbfaa%40wildbirdshop.com.

[alst...@aol.com]

Then The good life is just beginning !

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[BRIAN CAYER]

I hope so, if only we can get this ‘big honkin sail’ home for the winter. Would it not be easier to climb a ladder to unhook the boom and lower it to the deck on solid ground?

Being very careful of course .

On Oct 5, 2023, at 9:09 PM, 'alst...@aol.com' via INA Nonsuch Discussion Group <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 Then The good life is just beginning !

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[Don Crossley]

Perhaps I missed something here, but what does lowering the boom have to do with removing the sail?

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[Bob Neches (Me Gusta, Nonsuch 26U #233)]

Brian,

You seem rather determined to do the sail and boom while on the hard.

I concur with the fall risk concerns others have raised.   If you do go ahead in that approach anyway, one thing to keep in mind in your planning is that the sail is heavy in addition to being bulky, wiggly, and unwieldy.    

I recall we had a discussion thread some time ago about how much the sails weighed.  You might want to search the conversations and see if you can find it to double-check me, but my recollection was that N26 sails seemed to run between 70-90 lbs, and N30 owners estimated theirs as weighing in the 105-120 lb range. 

Rather than like lifting weights or carrying suitcases, this is probably like trying to move a dead body.  (I'm guessing here, I don't actually have first hand experience with disposing of evidence, and certainly wouldn't admit to it even if I had.)

But, having carried a bagged N26 sail up a flight of stairs to deliver it to a sailmaker with an upstairs loft, I know I wouldn't sign up to try an N30 sail up or down a ladder.  Nor would I feel safe trying to reduce the load by teaming with someone else on another ladder; that feels like a good way for one falling person to topple the other.

So, you'd want to be very careful about packing it and lowering it off the boat, especially if trying to get it down a ladder.   It might be better to plan on bagging or rolling it, tying lines around the package and using lines and/or a block and tackle arrangement to lower it to the ground.

FWIW, IMHO.

-- Bob

   Me Gusta

   Nonsuch e26U #233

[Discovery Sailing]

I have to see how the sail is attached to the stackpack ... I saw several zippers when out sailing yesterday but it was not clear that unzipping them would remove the sail from the stackpack.  I suppose once all the battens are out Ican roll the whole thing up together.  I guess I will find out next week

And, thanks for all your advice!

Dave DeWolfe

NS25C #150 Ascension

Marriotts Cove NS

[Dorothy Salusbury]

Before the boat is hauled out, I remove the sail. I typically unfasten the sail at the back then let the sail off at the front, releasing the pins on the tide track, it slides down fast. Then I fold it while in the cradle lines (that’s the tough part and it would be easier if I unclipped the cradle lines but I can’t reach them all)-folding it and getting it off the boat onto a cart is the only part I need help with, otherwise the sail comes off easily. I have a sail cover so don’t have to deal with removing the stack pack. Then over to dry grass, fold, stuff it into the bag and done for the season. I’ve never taken the wishbone down to do this and think that it would get in the way.

I am not tall, ok, I am short, but it’s really not a big deal. Reverse steps to put it back in the spring.

Just got the mast and wishbone off with experienced help, that wishbone is huge on land!

Dorothy

Cathartic. Nonsuch 30

ABYC Toronto

Get Outlook for iOS

 

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From: ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Don Crossley <doncr...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 22:49
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Sail removal

 

 Hey Brian,

https://groupsgoogle.com/d/msgid/INA-Nonsuch-Discussion-Group/08F232DB-526E-44FE-9C07-668267E92E03%40sbcglobal.net

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[alst...@aol.com]

Dorothy sums up sail removal pretty much the way I do it.  Detach both ends and roll it into a more or less handleable ball and get it to somewhere safe to fold properly. Dropping  the boom is another whole ball of wax, dropping it with sail attached sounds like a recipe for disaster.  I do drop the boom onto saw horses but only after I have cleared the deck of anything that I might trip over and again, I do it while the boat is in the water.  That way it’s not far to fall if I should be dumb enough slip. 

Alan Steward

30C. # 144 MagnifiCat 

Loyalist Cove Marina,

Bath, Ontario 

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[Mike BIANKA]

I removed the sail and bagged it the other day at the mooring. Yesterday there was space at the boatyard's face dock. So I was able to drop the bagged sail and take off the generator. Since I'm doing this myself one of best tools I've found to help is a COSCO hand cart. Once the sail is on the dock and put on the cart it's just a matter of waiting for high tide so the gangway to the parking lot has the least angle to push the cart up it. I always try to "work smarter not harder". :) 

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

[Ernie Abugov P/O NS22 o/b #56 "Moustaches"]

Brian Cayer -

First, congrats on your nice, new BIG boat. I am glad that you are not boat-less anymore. 

Maybe I'm wrong but, based on your remarks, I don't think that you've owned a Nonsuch previously.  Thus, I'll base my remarks on that supposition. Overwhelmingly, I am certain that the VAST majority of us Nonsuchers remove the sails from their boats when the boat is still in the water. THEN (and ONLY then), with the boat STILL in the water, do they drop the boom. In the spring, the reverse occurs, first the boom and last, the sail, ONCE the boat is in the water. Removing the sail and dropping the boom have, sincerely, nothing to do with each other.

This "ladder business" that you seem to be (understandably) intimidated by is a big nothing IF done absolutely safely. The ladder is used ONCE the sail is removed in order to drop the boom. Yes, it does entail leaning a ladder up against your mast. It should not be done on a rainy day (for lots of reasons like comfort, safety, etc.). It should not be done on a windy day (especially if the boat is on a mooring). It simply should be done a reasonably calm, dry day. 

You lean the ladder against the mast. The top of the ladder should be, maybe, a foot higher than where the boom "intersects" the mast. The foot of the ladder sits ON the cabin top. On my NS 22, it sat butted against the roof hatch and on a piece of foam yoga mat material so as not to scratch the deck AND be more slip resistant. BUT, here is the kicker: That ladder must be tied to the mast at the bottom with a length of line to prevent it slipping further aft (and falling down). It, then, must be tied at the top of the ladder to the mast. NOW, it's solid as a rock. It will oscillate with the boat and will be safe to climb. 

The other way to get at the boom hanger lines to undo them, etc. and drop the boom is with a bosuns chair (ugh ... and you better have lots of halyards - one to attach to the boom to lower it and TWO for the bosuns chair). This is a great way to get a SERIOUSLY sore and aching lower back, abrade your thighs, wrench your shoulders, etc. 

Or ..... if you must, once the boat is on the hard, use a CHERRY PICKER with a bucket, very carefully. 

Remember, there are many ways to skin a cat, remove a sail, drop the boom, etc. but there is only one "safest" way and, likely, that would be the way that 95% of us do it. No one plans to have a grisly and terrible accident but, as we know they happen. In this case, going up on a ladder on the top of a boat that is on top of a cradle makes me think of this:

    Or worse .......

I have attached a drawing of a ladder in "action", tied to the mast. 

To close, new and different ideas are essential (to any endeavour) but, with boats (as well as many other things) there is a huge potential for bad, bad stuff to occur. Better to end up bruised, wet and in the drink than dead on the ground. As the disgraced boxer Mike Tyson used to intone "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the jaw". Think that plan through very carefully and imagine what kinds of accidents could (and just may) occur.

All the best with your new boat.

Ernie A. in Toronto

[Joe Valinoti]

Dorothy:  Install “sister” clips on your cradle lines so that you can disconnect them easily and without effort.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

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[Joseph Carroll]

Get somebody to help you take down the sail. Bring it to a flat area (like a big room in a clubhouse, or a lawn), remove the battens, fold the sail, place it in a bag, and either bring it home or to a sailmaker if it needs work/cleaning. Don't leave it where mice can get into the sail bag and eat the sail. 

Joe Carroll, Madaket, Nonsuch 30 #56

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 6:45 AM Discovery Sailing <dlde...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am about to have my first experience removing a Nonsuch 26 sail.

The sail is zipped into a Doyle Stackpack.  Both sail and stackpack have battens which I can remove but beyond that I'm not clear.  I assume I need another person, as I am 81.

I would really appreciate advice!

Dave DeWolfe

NS26C #150  Ascension

Marriotts Cove NS

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[Robert Horne]

Place some Bounce laundry sheets around the sail bag, not on it. No mice activity. Bob Horne, 1989 N26C #249, ENCORE, Pocasset, MA.

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[Dorothy Salusbury]

Thanks Joe,

 

Got them, it’s my height that is the issue!

 

Dorothy

Nonsuch 30 Cathartic

ABYC Toronto

From: <ina-nonsuch-di...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joe Valinoti <joes...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, October 6, 2023 at 11:00 AM
To: <INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Sail removal

 

Dorothy:  Install “sister” clips on your cradle lines so that you can disconnect them easily and without effort.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V iL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~~~~~(\_ ~(\_ ~(\_~~~~~~~~~~

 

From: Dorothy Salusbury

Sent: Friday, October 6, 2023 6:23 AM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Sail removal

 

Before the boat is hauled out, I remove the sail. I typically unfasten the sail at the back then let the sail off at the front, releasing the pins on the tide track, it slides down fast. Then I fold it while in the cradle lines (that’s the tough part and it would be easier if I unclipped the cradle lines but I can’t reach them all)-folding it and getting it off the boat onto a cart is the only part I need help with, otherwise the sail comes off easily. I have a sail cover so don’t have to deal with removing the stack pack. Then over to dry grass, fold, stuff it into the bag and done for the season. I’ve never taken the wishbone down to do this and think that it would get in the way.

I am not tall, ok, I am short, but it’s really not a big deal. Reverse steps to put it back in the spring.

Just got the mast and wishbone off with experienced help, that wishbone is huge on land!

Dorothy

Oct 05, 2023Agent:

DOROTHY SALUSBURYdsalu...@sympatico.ca(416) 434-9859

Note:Would anyone be interested in looking after internet calls for 108 Leyton, cute house, empty, if you make any contacts, they are all yours. Thanks, Dorothy Salusbury

 

 

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[Thor (26C Brentwood Bay BC)]

Doing it on the hard complicates things a lot!

2 person job.

1.Remove the battens.

2.Tie up the sail with several sail ties ( 4 ) Then tie the sail ties to each to each other and the head board of the sail.  You want to  stay in place and not slip upwards in step 3

3.Wrap the halyard around the front of the sail and hoist it up , when practical swing the sail over the boom from the end and lower to the ground, dock.

Don't rush, slow works best.

Carry to a dry clean place to fold and bag,  3 people make carrying the thing easier, it weights about 60 lbs buy it is awkward.

[Ward Woodruff]

If you have a Doyle StackPack, I believe the stackpPack is sewn to the sail.  Even if they are two separate items, here is how I might get them off the boat while the boat is ashore.

1. Leave the battens in the sail and in the StackPack.

2. Disconnect the sail and Stackpack from the mast and boom as a unit.

3. 1/4 the distance from each end of the sail/StackPack fasten a line. This may need to be closer to the luff end to balance OK.

4. Lead the halyard outside the wishboom.

5. Connect the two lines, in item 3 above, to the halyard to form a lifting bridle.  Adjust to accommodate reasonable balance.

6.  With a second person manning the halyard winch, lift the sail and guide the sail over the lifelines.

7.  Lower the sail/StackPack to the ground.

8. Remove all of the battens and fold/roll the sail in a convenient place.

Ward Woodruff
N33 #8 Margery

Niantic Bay, CT

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[BRIAN CAYER]

Thanks to all for your input on my idea of removing the sail on the hard. I will probably take the safer path of removing it at the slip.  Ward Woodruff’s idea of using the halyard would work at the slip as well as on the hard I think as long as the halyard is long enough to lower it to the ground.

Brian Cayer

SV Spirit~Wind N30U #419

Deep River CT

Please disregard the misspelling of Spirit in previous posts

On Oct 6, 2023, at 1:23 PM, Ward Woodruff <wwood...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joe Valinoti]

Place them low so you can reach them, Dorothy.

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[Mike BIANKA]

Here is a quick video of disconnecting a Sister Clip aka Brummel Hook Joe mentioned. Makes taking down my Sailrite Sail Pack cover an easy process.  

https://youtu.be/3OmuZW54Oxo

Mike

BIANKA

1986 30U

Long Island

[John Gee]

I've a 22.  My approach has been to detach the clew, drop the sail while removing battens and letting tides system slugs drop out of mast.  I used Joe's suggestion years ago and installed sister clips on the cradle lines to allow the sail to drop to the deck.  Anyhow, I then re-hoist the sail and with a buddy, we roll the sail along the foot.  When done it looks like a sloppy rug with a body inside!  One guy takes the foot and walks it towards the stern while the other lowers the head.. Now have that "rolled rug" on deck which we can carry off without squeezing through dock poles.  On land we unroll the rug and flake for bagging/storage. Never fun but easier with practice.

John

TOURMALINE

1984 NS 22

Bolles Harbor, Lake Erie, MI