Briefly: I’m looking for background on the “Frobenius version” of elimination rules for inductive types. I’m aware of a few pieces of work mentioning this for identity types, and nothing at all for other inductive types. I’d be grateful to hear if anyone else can point me to anything I’ve missed in the literature — even just to a reference that lays out the Frobenius versions of the rules for anything beyond Id-types. The proximate motivation is just that I want to use these versions in a paper, and it’d be very nice to have a reference rather than cluttering up the paper by writing them all out in full…
In more detail: Here are two versions of the eliminator for identity types:
Γ, x,y:A, u:Id(x,y) |– C(x,y,u) type
Γ, x:A |– d(x) : C(x,x,r(x)) type
Γ |— a, b : A
Γ |— p : Id(a,b)
——————————————
Γ |— J(A, (x,y,u)C, (x)d, a, b, p) : C(a,b,p)
Γ, x,y:A, u:Id(x,y), w:Δ(x,y,u) |– C(x,y,u,w) type
Γ, x:A, w:Δ(x,x,r(x)) |– d(x,w) : C(x,x,r(x),w) type
Γ |— a, b : A
Γ |— p : Id(a,b)
Γ |— c : Δ(a,b,p)
——————————————
Γ |— J(A, (x,y,u)Δ, (x,y,u,w)C, (x,w)d, a, b, p, c) : C(a,b,p,c)
(where Δ(x,y,u) represents a “context extension”, i.e. some finite sequence of variables and types w_1 : B_1(x,y,u), w_2 : B_2(x,y,u,w_1), …)
I’ll call these the “simple version” and the “Frobenius version” of the Id-elim rule; I’ll call Δ the “Frobenius context”. The simple version is a special case of the Frobenius one; conversely, in the presence of Pi-types, the Frobenius version is derivable from the simple one.
Most presentations just give the simple version. The first mention of the Frobenius version I know of is in [Gambino, Garner 2008]; the connection with categorical Frobenius conditions is made in [van den Berg, Garner 2008], and some further helpful explanatory pointers are given in [Gambino, Sattler 2015]. It’s based on this that I use “Frobenius” to refer to these versions; I’m open to suggestions of better terminology. (All references are linked below.)
The fact that the Frobenius version is strictly stronger is known in folklore, but not written up anywhere I know of. One way to show this is to take any non right proper model category (e.g. the model structure for quasi-categories on simplicial sets), and take the model of given by its (TC,F) wfs; this will model the simple version of Id-types but not the Frobenius version.
Overall, I think the consensus among everyone who’s thought about this (starting from [Gambino, Garner 2008], as far as I know) is that if one’s studying Id-types in the absence of Pi-types, then one needs to use the Frobenius version.
One can also of course write Frobenius versions of the eliminators for other inductive types — eg Sigma-types, W-types, … However, I don’t know anywhere that even mentions these versions!
I remember believing at some point that at least for Sigma-types, the Frobenius version is in fact derivable from the simple version (without assuming Pi-types or any other type formers), which would explain why no-one’s bothered considering it… but if that’s the case, it’s eluding me now. On the other hand, I also can’t think of a countermodel showing the Frobenius version is strictly stronger — wfs models won’t do for this, since they have strong Sigma-types given by composition of fibrations.
So as far as I can see, if one’s studying Sigma-types in the absence of Pi-types, one again might want the Frobenius version; and it seems likely that the situation for other inductive types would be similar.But I’m not sure, and I feel I may be overlooking or forgetting something obvious. What have others on the list thought about this? Does anyone have a reference discussing the Frobenius versions of inductive types other than identity types, or at least giving the rules for them?Best,–Peter.
References:
- Gambino, Garner, 2008, “The Identity Type Weak Factorisation System”, https://arxiv.org/abs/0803.4349
- van den Berg, Garner, 2008, “Types are weak ω-groupoids”, https://arxiv.org/pdf/0812.0298.pdf
- Gambino, Sattler, 2015, “The Frobenius condition, right properness, and uniform fibrations”, https://arxiv.org/pdf/1510.00669.pdf
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Homotopy Type Theory" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to HomotopyTypeTheory+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to HomotopyTypeTheory+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Homotopy Type Theory" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to HomotopyTypeTheory+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
Hi Peter,I've been thinking about such eliminators lately too. It seems that they are derivable from ordinary eliminator for most type-theoretic constructions as long as we have identity types and sigma types.
I mean a strong version of Id:
The fact that the Frobenius version is strictly stronger is known in folklore, but not written up anywhere I know of. One way to show this is to take any non right proper model category (e.g. the model structure for quasi-categories on simplicial sets), and take the model of given by its (TC,F) wfs; this will model the simple version of Id-types but not the Frobenius version.Are you sure this is true? It seems that we can interpret the strong version of J even in non right proper model categories. Then the argument I gave above shows that the Frobenius version is also definable.
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:07 PM Valery Isaev <valery...@gmail.com> wrote:Hi Peter,I've been thinking about such eliminators lately too. It seems that they are derivable from ordinary eliminator for most type-theoretic constructions as long as we have identity types and sigma types.Thankyou — very nice observation, and (at least to me) quite surprising!
I mean a strong version of Id:Side note: this is I think more widely known as the Paulin-Mohring or one-sided eliminator for Id-types; the HoTT book calls it based path-induction.The fact that the Frobenius version is strictly stronger is known in folklore, but not written up anywhere I know of. One way to show this is to take any non right proper model category (e.g. the model structure for quasi-categories on simplicial sets), and take the model of given by its (TC,F) wfs; this will model the simple version of Id-types but not the Frobenius version.Are you sure this is true? It seems that we can interpret the strong version of J even in non right proper model categories. Then the argument I gave above shows that the Frobenius version is also definable.Ah, yes — there was a mistake in the argument I had in mind. In that case, do we really know for sure that the Frobenius versions are really strictly stronger?
–p.
2018-07-13 13:38 GMT+03:00 Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine <p.l.l...@gmail.com>:
Hi,
Here's a simple countermodel that shows that the Martin-Löf
eliminator (two-sided eliminator) for identity types is not strong
enough to derive transport in the absence of Pi-types.
Consider the initial model of a type theory with Id, refl, a closed type A, a type family B over A, and closed terms x,y : A, b : B x and p : Id_A x y.
It can be shown that the only terms of that model are the variables, the weakenings of the generators and their iterated refls.
Because there is no closed term of type B y, transport does not hold in this model.
However, unless I missed some cases, it is still possible to
define the Martin-Löf eliminator by case distinction on the
elimination target.
Best,
Rafaël
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Homotopy Type Theory" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to HomotopyTypeThe...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/HomotopyTypeTheory/ade5cab1-5df2-41c9-b412-ac561fbe77bc%40googlegroups.com.