Did Ellenberger's systematic work ever get published?

80 views
Skip to first unread message

Mickey Mortimer

unread,
Jul 12, 2025, 7:33:19 PM7/12/25
to Dinosaur Mailing Group
So I noticed Ellenberger (1974: 81) says "We propose elsewhere to group all these animals into the new and more homogeneous infraorder of "Thecodontosaurians," a numerous fauna in the Upper Stormberg (see our "Systematics of Archosaurians...", E.P.H.E. Lecture)." (translated from French like the rest of these quotes) Later, Ellenberger and Villalta (1974: 163) wrote "See the 1972 phylogenetic table and our essay in preparation (P. E.): "Systematics of Archosaurians in the Light of Myological Ichnology in Gondwana and its Extensions," presented at the E.P.H.E. 1972 ss."

So my first question is was this ever made into a complete paper, as I can't find anything in e.g. Chure and McIntosh's Bibliography, Ford's Dino Hunter?

My second question is were the proceedings or abstracts or whatever of the 1972 EPHE meeting ever published? And is this the 
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes (Practical School of Advanced Studies) associated with the University of Montpellier or some other acronym?

Skye McDavid

unread,
Jul 12, 2025, 7:39:09 PM7/12/25
to DinosaurMa...@googlegroups.com
Would you be able to send these references in French untranslated ? 
Most research output f that era from French Public Universities is on Gallica but it's a pain to navigate. I'm busy tonight but now that you've brought it up I'm also intrigued by this and would like to do some more digging when I have time (ie tomorrow morning?)

Skye 

Skye McDavid
(she/her)
https://www.skyemcdavid.com/
This message was sent at a time that is convenient for me. I do not expect you to reply outside of your normal working hours

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dinosaur Mailing Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to DinosaurMailingG...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/DinosaurMailingGroup/05b0c811-ded5-4bd2-89c8-9946a9b08770n%40googlegroups.com.

Jerry Harris

unread,
Jul 12, 2025, 8:07:29 PM7/12/25
to Dinosaur Mailing Group
Huh, never looked into that reference myself! "E.P.H.E." does seem to stand for "Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes," an organization that has a website for their publications (https://www.ephe.psl.eu/ressources-savoirs/publications-de-lephe-psl), but of all the ones listed, I presume it's "Les Conférences" that might contain an Ellenberger paper, if it exists. However, their conference volumes online only go back to 2010. However, poking around on Worldcat, there appears to be a 1972–73 conference volume for the organization (https://search.worldcat.org/title/1124730432)...but according to Worldcat, only a single library in France has the volume. Brief poking around on Gallica didn't find it, though Gallica's search function leaves some things to be desired (or else my understanding of how to search it effectively leaves some things to be desired!). That's as far as my sleuthing brought me. I'd love to at least see a table of contents for the volume if not the volume itself!

Jerry Harris

unread,
Jul 12, 2025, 8:15:48 PM7/12/25
to Dinosaur Mailing Group
Oh, also: if there is a paper in such a volume, the full title of it seems to be: "Systématique des Archosauriens à la lumière de l’Ichnologie myologique dans le Gondwana et ses prolongements" (from a footnote in Ellenberger & de Villalta [1974]).

Mickey Mortimer

unread,
Jul 12, 2025, 8:30:27 PM7/12/25
to Dinosaur Mailing Group
Sure-

"Nous proposons ailleurs de regrouper tous ces animaux dans l'infra-ordre nouveau
et plus homogène des "Thécodontosauriens", faune nombreuse au Stormberg supérieur
(on pourra se reporter à notre "Systématique des Archosauriens ... ", Cours E.P. H.E)"

"Voir 1972 tableau phylogénique, et notre essai en préparation
(P. E.): "Systématique des Archosauriens à la lumiere de l'Ichnologie myologique dans le Gondwana et ses prolongements", donné
à l'E.P.H.E. 1972 ss."

Ellenberger and Villalta 1974 is attached, but Ellenberger 1974 is a large file, so can be downloaded from here- https://www.mediafire.com/file/y5xsa8a304ji81p/Ellenberger+1974+Elliot+and+Clarens+Fms+dino+footprints.pdf/file

Mickey Mortimer
Cosesaurus Ellenberger and Villalta 1974.pdf
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages