“DAC not …a climate solution but a way to continue producing petroleum”

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Greg Rau

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Jul 18, 2023, 2:05:18 AM7/18/23
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 Occidental Petroleum Corp. leader Vicki Hollub has described DAC not as a climate solution but a way to continue producing petroleum.

“We believe that our direct capture technology is going to be the technology that helps to preserve our industry over time,” she said at an oil and gas conference earlier this year. “This gives our industry a license to continue to operate for the 60, 70, 80 years that I think it’s going to be very much needed.”


GR - Any questions?

Peter Eisenberger

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Jul 18, 2023, 4:25:02 AM7/18/23
to Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal
Greg 
It is also true that without DAC the oil industry will continue to operate because of the billions of people suffering from energy inequity who need energy to meet their basic needs.  

 renewables cannot replace natural gas fast enough to meet those needs and even longer to build the infrastructure to suport it 

I do not support the way OXY is using DAC to get more oil but I do believe the energy industry has a critical role to play in addressing climate change 
They know how to implement global scale projects
demonizing the energy industry and the use of fossil fuels as the cause of climate change when all our progress has been based on it makes no sense  
This is just progress as our energy transformed from wood to oil to natural gas and now renewables 
We still are getting 15 % of our global energy from burning wood so energy transitions take time. 

We need instead to come together and repurpose their capability to enable using fossil fuels while we reduce the amount of co2 in the atmosphere at the same time 
Peter 

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On Jul 17, 2023, at 11:05 PM, Greg Rau <gh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


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Jim Baird

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Jul 18, 2023, 10:21:56 AM7/18/23
to Peter Eisenberger, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal

Boiling the ocean is not recommended.

"Boil the Ocean", is a business meme that means to undertake an impossible task or project or to make a job or project unnecessarily difficult.

Some put global warming mitigation in the realm of the impossible.

These are the adapters, who seek to reduce the negative effects of climate change and to take advantage of every opportunity it might present. (Ready OXY and the like)

There is plenty of evidence in support of this position considering all efforts to date to contain emissions have flopped.   

But in the words of Upton Sinclair, the American writer, political activist and the 1934 Democratic Party nominee for governor of California come to mind with respect to the difficulty of the problem,  “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”

There are plenty of salaries dependent on not understanding how to solve the problem of global warming. Which oddly enough requires boiling.

Just not of water.

The idiom, “Boil the Ocean”, is attributed to Will Rogers, the American humorist, who suggested boiling the ocean was the only way to deal with World War I's German U-boats.

“I think if you heated up the Atlantic ocean, the submarines would turn pink and rise to the surface where you could easily capture them,” he said.

And in response to a question from a man in his audience who asked,  “But how do you boil an ocean?”  Rogers responded, “I’ve given you the solution. It’s up to you to work out the details.”

A recent study suggests, our neighboring planet, Venus, may have had a liquid surface for billions of years. Before UV radiation broke the water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen that has escaped to space. With the result the current atmosphere of Venus is made up almost completely of carbon dioxide that has produced a greenhouse blanket that has warmed the surface to a temperature of 464 degrees Celsius.

The Washington Post reports the current heat dome over the American Southeast has led to ocean surface temperatures of between 32 and 35 degrees Celsius in the Florida Keys.

This is remote from the boiling temperature of water. But the transformation of energy into heat is among the most ubiquitous processes of physics. With the result, as Tom Murphy, professor of physics at the University of California, San Diego, notes in his book Energy and Human Ambitions on a Finite Planet, given the steady energy growth of 2.3% America has experienced since 1650, the Earth’s surface temperature will be 100 degrees Celsius in 450 years per the following graphic.

And in fact ocean water can be boiled today at room temperature under a vacuum, which is the principle behind “Open Cycle Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion”. 

Warm surface water is introduced through a valve in a low pressure compartment and flash evaporated. The vapor drives a generator and is condensed by the cold seawater pumped up from below. The condensed water can be collected and because it is fresh water, used for various purposes per the following graphic.

But this design as well as all conventional ocean thermal energy conversion approaches is at least half as efficient as Thermodynamic Geoengineering, which uses both warm and cold water contiguous to the evaporator and condenser, doesn’t dump cold water near the ocean surface, uses pipe that are one order in diameter smaller, thus reducing the entire cost of the system, pumps 1/200th of the fluids, and reduces the parasitic pumping losses of these fluids by a third. Per the following graphic.

Thermodynamic Geoengineering operates on the same principle as a heat pump. Both transfer thermal energy between two locations.

Heat flows naturally from places of higher temperature to locations with lower temperatures but in the oceans, which are the repository of 93% of the heat of warming, hot warm water is more buoyant than cold water. To cool the surface therefore, which is the requirement for climate mitigation, surface water has to be pumped against buoyancy deeper, or it has to be diluted by cold water pumped up to the surface. Which in either instance consumes energy.

Like a heat pump, though, Thermodynamic Geoengineering moves heat through the phases of a low-boiling-point working fluid. But in the case of Thermodynamic Geoengineering this is a free ride. Furthermore the hotter the ocean surface gets, the more energy and more efficient is Thermodynamic Geoengineering.  

A  evaporator at the surface boils the working fluid, producing a pressure that allows the vapor to flow into the deep, cold, water where the vapor condenses to a liquid that is pumped back to the surface to complete the cycle.

    These vapor flow can be interrupted by a heat engine that can convert the vapor into electrical energy with a loss of only about 4.8% in pumping losses returning the condenser working fluid back to the surface. Or In other words, almost 12 times much energy is produced by the system as is consumed internally by the pumps.

Heat pumps typically use about five times less energy in the cooling mode than in their heating mode because in cold weather there isn’t as much heat that can be absorbed from outside the system.

Thermodynamic Geoengineering is also a highly efficient way of cooling the surface. In part because there is a lot  more cold water in the oceans than hot water. Which in the latter case is the principle hazard of climate change.

Using this resource  to the best advantage by using it to boil a working fluid like ammonia or carbon dioxide,  can mitigate every consequence of climate change, and can provide all the energy necessary to provide all of the planets cooling and heating needs as well as the fuel every hard to decarbonize sector of the economy requires.

There are a lot more salaries dependent on understanding the basic physics of global warming than there are in the extractive and productive side of the fossils fuel industry, which is also flush with the technical expertise that is transferable to producing a sustainable economy and planet.

Instead of making the job of defeating climate change unnecessarily difficult, it is long past time we starting taking the easy route too planetary salvation dictated by the laws of thermodynamics.

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Amal Bhattarai

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Jul 18, 2023, 7:02:46 PM7/18/23
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Actually I have long had a relevant question……

At todays rates of adoption, when is solar/wind /etc forecasted to beat fossil fuels in terms of cost and power output?  

Is it 30-ish years or “60,70,80 years”? Fossil industry has consistently underestimated sustainable energy progress. 
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Nucleation Capital

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Jul 18, 2023, 9:37:23 PM7/18/23
to Peter Eisenberger, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal

Peter,

It is disappointing to hear you talk like this and it appears you have bought into Exxon’s self-serving arguments lock, stock and oil-filled barrel. My question to you is, how much have they invested in Global Thermostat and is it worth it?

Their "business as usual” approach, even with their (hopefully not too modest) investments in Global Thermostat, will doom our planet. What you’ve written is fossil fuel propaganda because nuclear power, which today produces almost 50% of US clean electrons and about 20% of US electricity and 10% of global energy could easily be expanded globally with vastly less mortality than what is caused by using fossil fuels, even before we factor in climate impacts. Every nuclear plant built supplants a coal or gas plant's worth of demand or more and saves lives in the process. But they tend to omit that and are threatened by this fact. You too?

Nuclear combined with renewables creates very cost-effective 100% clean energy combinations, can be deployed globally to meet what is growing energy demand worldwide, of combined electricity, industry process heat, transportation and built environment heat/cooling needs. Of course we want to meet the energy needs of underserved populations but we definitely don’t need fossil fuels to do that!  They just want us to ignore the nuclear option, so we think we do.

You may be correct in saying that renewables cannot grow fast enough to meet those needs but combined with nuclear power and, very soon, Gen IV small modular nuclear power plants, we can create 100% clean, reliable and climate resilient energy systems. Nuclear will come in a wider range of sizes and styles and can be built almost anywhere—even at former coal or gas plants, at industrial plants and even anywhere that CCUS needs a 24x7x52 power source. 

Had the US stayed on the course set by President Kennedy for our nuclear build out, we might not even have the climate crisis we have now. Instead, nuclear was attacked through very effective antinuclear campaigns (most of which had funding from fossil fuel) and so the fossil fuel industry was able to extend its death grip on our energy appetites an extra fifty years, killing millions globally every year with toxic pollution, accidents, and deadly geopolitics, in the interest of serving our energy needs, while actively keeping the public opposed to clean and safe nuclear power

Unfortunately, the world cannot afford to allow that to continue any longer and we must do better than to have our collective will being compromised by the fossil appeasement mindset you now spout, as well as omitting or propagating fictions about nuclear power, which is the best energy mankind's ever developed. We neither need nor can we afford the "slow down the energy transition" mantra spewed by the fossil fuel industry. That is pure bunk.

Of course, I agree that in the 19th and 20th centuries, fossil fuels accelerated human development and population. I also agree that this industry has enormous expertise in global scale projects. However, that does not expunge their sins. They worked to deny climate truth, sought to obfuscate the science to the public, demonized climate scientists and supported deniers and threatened to oppose politicians seeking to address the problem. All to extend their profits and power well past the time that they knew what the impacts of their products’ emissions would be on the planet—and they are still doing so now, more fifty years later. That’s not showing integrity and they deserve to be demonized for that ongoing and greenwashed behavior.

You really want to “come together and repurpose their capability to enable using fossil fuels while we reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere at the same time?”  You really think that will keep our planet from overheating beyond the endurance of the ecosystems that humans rely on?  Have you missed seeing Dr. Hansen's recent climate reports?  I’ve attached the headliner image as a reminder. 


To me, nothing less than getting to zero-emission energy systems asap—50% reduced by 2030 (which we are on track to miss) and 100% by 2050 (which we can achieve with the expansion of nuclear and renewables)—so ending any additional human-caused CO2 and methane emissions while ALSO cleanly powering massive amounts of carbon drawdown to begin to restore our climate—will do. Once we get to zero new emissions, how long will it take to draw down a couple gigatons of CO2, a century? Helping to restore the climate would be an excellent use of the fossil fuel industry and their ability to scale—because that is one huge mess they have created! 

Also, progress is not moving to renewables. That’s another misleading mantra. Progress is decarbonizing while moving from energy types with a low EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) to higher EROEIs. A really good explanation of this concept is provided by Goehring & Rozencwajc in “The Distortions of Cheap Energy.”  This reports provides analysis of EROEIs over time, showing how its growth enabled human thriving, from when we relied on food, beasts of burden, wood and other types of biomass (with low EROEI of 5:1 or less), to coal (EROEI of 10:1), gas (EROEI of 30:1), and, increasingly to nuclear (EROEI of 100:1). Unfortunately, wind and solar, with EROEI’s estimated at 3.5:1 do not pose true energy “progress.” 

Exxon, your investor, and the industry it belongs to are wealthy and really know how to throw their weight around. They had their century and a half of prominence but their arguments are specious and their dinosaur energy products are well past their sell by dates, for reasons that include climate and many other benefits. I urge you to avoid drinking their Kool Aid and focus on building GT to draw down atmospheric CO2 and don’t be co-opted into EOR or extending the fossil fuel era. 

Valerie

Exxon Mobil invests in Global Thermostat carbon capture technology

Exxon said it has a new joint development agreement to advance the technology with New York-based Global Thermostat, which already has a pilot plant in Alabama that uses giant fans to suck the carbon dioxide out of the sky. Exxon Mobil wants to develop the technology for much larger-scale industrial use.

"Our scientists see potential in this exciting technology that could lead to more affordable methods to reduce emissions in power generation and manufacturing, along with removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere," said Vijay Swarup, Exxon vice president of research and development.

Global Thermostat hopes Exxon Mobil's funding and research capabilities can help it accelerate the deployment of the technologies worldwide."Scaling solutions that can address climate change globally requires significant investment, innovation and collaboration," said Peter Eisenberger, chief technology officer and co-founder of Global Thermostat.

Exxon Mobil isn't saying how much it's investing initially.

The Global Thermostats technology is somewhat similar to the investments that Chevron and Houston-based Occidental Petroleum are making in Canada's Carbon Engineering, a direct air capture firm that aims to deploy carbon-capture plants near oil and gas production like West Texas' booming Permian Basin.


Chris Van Arsdale

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Jul 18, 2023, 11:26:48 PM7/18/23
to Amal Bhattarai, Carbon Dioxide Removal
On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 4:02 PM Amal Bhattarai <amalbh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually I have long had a relevant question……

Nice change from the rest of this thread
 

At todays rates of adoption, when is solar/wind /etc forecasted to beat fossil fuels in terms of cost and power output?  

For grid or for transportation?

For grid, 24/7 CFE (using solar+batteries), the cost will likely drop below the replacement cost of natural gas circa ~2028 in many locations if we can extrapolate the existing learning curves. The marginal cost for existing plants, though, is much lower, so they'd have to age out.

For transportation... hard to say, since it's not an exact 1:1 replacement unlike electricity (is it OK if the range is lower? takes longer to charge? only charges when the sun is shining?).


- Chris
 

Is it 30-ish years or “60,70,80 years”? Fossil industry has consistently underestimated sustainable energy progress. 


On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 11:05:18 PM UTC-7 Greg Rau wrote:

 Occidental Petroleum Corp. leader Vicki Hollub has described DAC not as a climate solution but a way to continue producing petroleum.

“We believe that our direct capture technology is going to be the technology that helps to preserve our industry over time,” she said at an oil and gas conference earlier this year. “This gives our industry a license to continue to operate for the 60, 70, 80 years that I think it’s going to be very much needed.”


GR - Any questions?

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Greg Rau

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Jul 18, 2023, 11:48:22 PM7/18/23
to Peter Eisenberger, Carbon Dioxide Removal
Just to pile on, and/or offer a compromise - If DAC is an emissions reduction scheme for the US production of energy, then why does only the fossil fuel industry get special compensation via 45Q, IRA, DAC hubs, etc while those energy sources not requiring DAC to generate low emissions kWhs or MJs don't also benefit for the contribution they make to emissions reduction? Why is the US taxpayer being asked to shower fossil energy with incentives to reduce net emissions (via DAC) while not offering the same incentives per MJ to much-lower-emitting (and less toxic) energy sources that don't require (energy intensive) DAC? Should this be about preserving the fossil fuel industry, or about providing a level playing field with tech-neutral incentives with which to determine and promote the most cost effective way for the US/world to achieve net zero? What are the economics (+/- DAC incentives) in terms of $/net MJ of reducing emissions via the use of non-fossil energy vs fossil energy+DAC? And if emissions offsets are required, why (should the US taxpayer) assume DAC will be the only way to do it? Why not promote/incentivize all forms of CDR as long as there is a clear demonstration of safe CO2 removal and long-term storage?

Greg

Anton Alferness

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Jul 19, 2023, 12:17:38 AM7/19/23
to Greg Rau, Peter Eisenberger, Carbon Dioxide Removal
Greg - 

Are you implying you (PT) would also like to be included in the list of emissions continuation enabling technologies / methodologies that ignorant / greedy fossil fuel industry execs can muse about with gratitude amongst friends? My apologies for attempting comedy on a Tuesday. 

-Anton 

Michael Hayes

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Jul 19, 2023, 12:35:50 AM7/19/23
to Greg Rau, Peter Eisenberger, Carbon Dioxide Removal

To help wind down the FF industry, and rapidely reduce CO2, renewable energy producing CDR methods need to be valued as highly as DAC is now. Dropping DAC with well injection from the 45Q list completely would get my vote as there is no significant R&D needed to understand how to pump CO2 down old leaky wells, none. Yet, it gets the highest 45Q value.

The IRS 45Q executives likely need to be invited to this forum.

Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas

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Jul 19, 2023, 11:56:01 AM7/19/23
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For utility scale energy generation, wind and solar have been at or below parity for coal going on for geeze, getting close to 10 years now for wind, a little less for solar.  Fracking gave renewables a run for their money, but the steady decline of renewable's costs, that as yet has no real end in sight, has allowed the lowest costs of combined cycle natural gas to exceed parity too. See Lazard's Levelized Cost of Energy - These costs are net, including capitalization. The head slapper is: Why would energy companies be building renewables so strongly, and abandoning coal so rapidly, if renewables were not a better financial deal with an even better future?
https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf

Staying wet outside in Austin,

B

Air temp at 10:54 is 89 to 91 around the region. A couple days ago at 105 in the middle of the afternoon the pavement temp was 166.

Bruce Melton PE
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Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas

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Jul 19, 2023, 12:16:56 PM7/19/23
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IRS' 45Q is not limited only to fossil fuels and renewables have their own incentive platforms. The fossil fuel only IRS 45Q incentive ended with Trump's enhancements several years ago and added direct capture. The incentive now has a cash pay with the IRA enhancements, instead of tax reduction only. As of Turmp's enhancements the only strategies that were not allowed incentive or pay were photosynthetic. The new rules with the IRA enhancements that should be coming out any month now may allow photosynthesis strategies, fingers crossed. If this happens, the incentive will be available for all, or almost all CDR strategies. I am not holding out hope for forests or other classic photosynthetic strategies. These are all in some sort or collapse now or will be any minute now, and are not capable of sequestering. But biochar, algae and other photosynthetic processes like ocean pasture's and etc. are what will be important. This is also a strange and significantly inequitable issue here in that there is one photosynthetic CDR strategy that is currently receiving large 45Q incentives: BECCS.

And what was the fundamental concept of Obama's original 45Q in the first place? It was scaling air capture, literally from the first draft of the Green New Deal. All the chatter about moral hazard and the FFIX's continuing burning of fossil fuels is valid of course, but misplaced. Originally, 45Q was only for flue gas capture. The deal with scaling air capture is that most of flue gas capture and components are identical to air capture. Scale flue gas capture and we scale air capture components at the same time. IRS 45Q sought to use an existing robust industry to scale the tech because without scaling air capture, no matter have fast we achieve the Holy Grail of decarbonization, we lose. They also did this via positive incentive because we could not get a negative incentive implemented. Since Obama's time we have known that future emissions reductions would not carry us through to a safe climate.

Staying wet in Austin,

B

Bruce Melton PE
Director, Climate Change Now Initiative, 501c3
President, Melton Engineering Services Austin
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Bruce Parker

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Jul 19, 2023, 12:28:41 PM7/19/23
to Carbon Dioxide Removal

If “DAC is not a climate solution” how will we remove enough CO2 from the atmosphere to limit the temperature increase to an “acceptable” level?  The current temperature increase is already not “acceptable”, there is a large energy imbalance, atmospheric concentration CO2,CH4 and N2O are increasing at an accelerating rate, and GHG emissions are not expected to drop significantly for decades.  So there is a “huge” need for removing CO2 from the atmosphere.  Can any other technology/methodology” do the job at scale at an acceptable cost?

 

“Under the IRA, DAC facilities are eligible for up to $130/MT for captured QCO used in EOR or utilized in certain industrial applications and $180/MT for other geologically sequestered QCO (subject to the same 80 percent haircut as other projects noted above if the DAC facility fails new prevailing wage and apprenticeship requirements).”

 

“ As a result, a congressional research agency estimates that 45Q alone will cost taxpayers $3.2 billion over the next 10 years. “ (https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2022/10/17/cashing-in-on-carbon-capture-how-big-oil-will-spend-our-money/ )

 

“Via a plant-level bottom-up and top-down cost assessment, we find that [DAC] costs could drop to $100-600 t-CO2-1 by 2050” (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590332223003007 )

 

One aim of 45Q is to bring down the cost of  DAC by providing the tax credit (i.e., without a tax credit there would be a lot less DAC so it would take longer to get the needed “learning curve” cost reductions).  The US will probably have a CDR/DAC “requirement “ of over  1 GCO2/year by 2050 (and more likely at least 5 GCO2/year) (see my last email which showed that we need to remove 500 GTCO2 + all future emissions in order to reduce atmospheric CO2 to  350PPM).  At $100/ton, that’s $100-$500 billion/year.  (And at $200/ton, that’s $200-$1,000 billion/year.) So the expected 45Q costs will be a “drop in the bucket” compared to expected future DAC expenditures , and will (hopefully!) help bring the DAC costs down to an “affordable” level.  (Personally, I don’t expect DAC to get “cheap enough” for politicians to be willing to commit the funds needed to deploy DAC at the scale needed).

 

Bruce Parker

Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas

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Jul 19, 2023, 1:25:28 PM7/19/23
to Bruce Parker, Carbon Dioxide Removal

Note on 45Q - it has no tax incentive or direct pay limit - zero. The $3.2 is quite low and so is the $8.6 billion by 2030 I have seen. If the 200+/-, 1 Mt per year facilities that are already committed are online in 2030, costs at an average of $100 per ton incentive/pay would be $20 trillion per year.

Costs as per Keith 2018 for Oxy's 100 committed 1 Mt per year facilities on paper are $94 ton with the cheapest commercial fracked gas at $0.03 kWh. With $0.01 kWh renewables and 87% of costs being energy (ignoring the need for heat energy not capable of being supplied by renewables) this is $39 per ton -- before process advancements and further scaling.

Staying wet in Austin,

B

Bruce Melton PE
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Dan Galpern

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Jul 19, 2023, 3:18:58 PM7/19/23
to Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas, CarbonDiox...@googlegroups.com

Bruce (Melton): Let's not prematurely despair about forests: I am pretty sure they remain important, and necessary if not sufficient, in terms of needed carbon sequestration. Indeed, a detailed treatment published in 2021 determined that over 2001-19, "global forests were a net carbon sink of −7.6 ± 49 GtCO2e yr−1, reflecting a balance between gross carbon removals (−15.6 ± 49 GtCO2e yr−1) and gross emissions from deforestation and other disturbances (8.1 ± 2.5 GtCO2e yr−1)."
Global maps of twenty-first century forest carbon fluxes, here.



Anton Alferness

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Jul 19, 2023, 4:05:57 PM7/19/23
to Dan Galpern, Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas, CarbonDiox...@googlegroups.com
Dan: can you explain "−7.6 ± 49 GtCO2e yr−1" for me? Thank you. 

Peter Eisenberger

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Jul 19, 2023, 4:26:32 PM7/19/23
to Nucleation Capital, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal
Valerie 
I am certainly against any subsidies for oil and gas usage and for subsidies for renewable energy !

I should have been more direct in expressing my view rather than just saying I was against what Oxy was doing to use DAC CO2 to push oil out of the ground where it is only economical because of government subsidies. In fact I am against any subsidy for avoided emissions using fossil fuel sources.
I
My point was that we would need to continue to use fossil fuels because energy equity is the other challenge we are facing since the UN has shown their human development index correlates with energy per capita  
image.png
and it will take quite some while for renewables to provide the global demand for energy 

My point of view about the transition we are going through to address the two main challenges we face 
,energy equity and climate change,  is expressed in the not for profit I have founded , Equitable Climate Innovations Institute 
(https://eciinstitute.org/) . By the way I am very pro nuclear because I believe in the end our species will get its energy from nuclear 
and it will be nuclear fusion. If you are interested read REME -- Renewable Energy and Materials Economy -- The Path to Energy Security, Prosperity and Climate Stability https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.14976

I hope this clarifies things but please do not hesitate to voice any other concerns 
Peter 
   
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Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas

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Jul 19, 2023, 5:10:51 PM7/19/23
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I try and talk to Jim whenever I have the chance. His work in 2008 and 2017 is responsible for the lowering of Sierra Club's target from 1.5 C to 1 C, that I was solely responsible or - thanks to the policy team and all the reviewers and committees and the board for approving. His rationale was "earth systems boundaries," and natural feedback emissions from their collapse once we exceed the temperatures of the Holocene, that maxed out at less than 1 C above normal.

What I am concerned with is an overly aggressive reporting of the simple "heat wave" concept with global warming - even with "new normal" as a byline... Even with "and it gets worse form here" as a byline... It is extremely likely that Hansen talked about tipping and ecological collapse/Earth systems boundaries in this interview, but they didn't cover it. This is what is important. The heat is only several degrees above normal which is trouble for our grids and pockets, but nothing near like the trouble it is for our Earth systems. The killer is that our current average amount of warming is beyond the evolutionary boundaries of our Earth's systems. When these boundaries are exceeded, 10th grade science tells us the systems collapse so new species and mechanisms can evolve into the void that are tolerant of the new conditions. This is what is happening now with the fires, insect and simple water stress mortality. It's this water stress mortality that when doubled, carbon storage is halved. Because our biggest natural systems sequestration is forests, and because most forests globally have already seen a doubling to quadrupling of mortality, and because forest sequestration is only modest when in full health, we have natural systems feedback emissions in our immediate future that dwarf humankind's.

Steep trails,

B

Bruce Melton PE
Director, Climate Change Now Initiative, 501c3
President, Melton Engineering Services Austin
8103 Kirkham Drive
Austin, Texas 78736
(512)799-7998
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On 7/19/2023 11:28 AM, Bruce Parker wrote:

Dan Galpern

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Jul 19, 2023, 5:42:59 PM7/19/23
to an...@paradigmclimate.com, Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas, CarbonDiox...@googlegroups.com
Thanks Bruce,

  I think it means that their central estimate, for 2001-2019, is that forests globally removed a net of 7.6 GtCO2e per year, and yet study authors also report considerable uncertainty in their estimate. According to the authors, "[t]he large uncertainties in global gross removals and net flux are almost entirely due to extremely high uncertainty in removal factors from the IPCC Guidelines applied to old secondary temperate forests outside the United States and Europe." 

  I think it is fair for me to quote a bit more from the full article from Nature Climate Change. Study authors their also wrote that:

"Tropical and subtropical forests contributed the most to
global gross forest fluxes, accounting for 78% of gross emissions
(6.3 ± 2.4 GtCO2e yr−1) and 55% of gross removals
(−8.6 ± 7.6 GtCO2e yr−1) (Table 1). While these forests removed
more atmospheric carbon than temperate and boreal forests on a
gross basis (−8.6 versus −4.4 and −2.5 GtCO2e yr−1, respectively),
tropical and subtropical forests contributed just 30% to the global
net carbon sink; about two-thirds of the global net sink was in temperate
(47%) and boreal (21%) forests, resulting from substantially
lower gross emissions there than in the subtropics and tropics (0.87
and 0.88 versus 6.3 GtCO2e yr−1, respectively).

"Just six large forested countries (Brazil, Canada, China,
Democratic Republic of the Congo, Russia and the United States)
accounted for 51% of global gross emissions, 56% of global gross
removals and 60% of net flux. Forests in nearly all countries were
net carbon negative, that is, gross carbon removals from established
and regrowing forests exceeded gross emissions from land-use
change and other forest disturbances."

Seeking out some more updated data, I found from their Global Forest Watch website here that: 
"Between 2001 and 2022, forests in [the] United States emitted 820MtCO₂e/year, and removed -1.52GtCO₂e/year. This represents a net carbon sink of -701MtCO₂e/year."

From that same site, I think you can find such updated 21-year estimates from that project for every nation (and many sub-national jurisdictions).

As far as I understand it, forests in virtually every nation are not optimally managed to maximize sequestration (nor ecological integrity) as governments and private owners too-frequently allow or directly log mature and old growth that otherwise would maximally sequester carbon. We are therefore just plain lucky that forests on-net still appear to serve as important sinks, though much more could be done in that space given additional political will.

Dan

Anton Alferness

unread,
Jul 19, 2023, 5:58:06 PM7/19/23
to Dan Galpern, Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas, CarbonDiox...@googlegroups.com
I agree with your last paragraph, 100%. 

I think I was confused about you saying this: "I am pretty sure they remain important, and necessary if not sufficient, in terms of needed carbon sequestration." <- implies forests will save us by themselves, which we all know isn't true. I've met plenty of forests, some are total jerks. 

Combined with the 7.6 plus or minus 49 bit... which, either I'm as dumb as a tofu hot pocket or I'm as dumb as a tofu hot pocket AND that is not a useful tolerance band. 

Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas

unread,
Jul 20, 2023, 1:05:47 PM7/20/23
to Dan Galpern, CarbonDiox...@googlegroups.com

Hi Dan and all,

We have to be careful in understanding the data we use. Harris 2021 uses 30m data that does not understand mortality. This work is a simple area=emissions inventory of forests that then applies assumptions about C flux based on healthy forest conditions. An example of how this kind of method can be biased is the extensive reporting on the Amazon that says it is now a carbon source of around a Gt CO2eq annually, and no longer sequestering, based on multiple lines of research. Harris 2021 says the Amazon has a net sequestration of 1.2 Gt CO2 (from presentation).

Looking at the methods in Harris 2021 (free account required for download), this simple inventory of global forests uses other's data published from the period 2003 to 2017, but based on the individual dates of data collection for each of the individual findings.  (see Fig. 1 from the extended data in Harris 2021 below)

There are several biases possible in this work: their lidar conversions do not have the resolution to evaluate changes in mortality from 0.25 percent to 1 percent, nor do they do comparisons to understand the change in mortality that is causing our global forests to flip from sinks to sources. Their data are old, relatively, as the conditions that have caused the increases in forest mortality are new, relatively. Their conversions do not understand standing dead (or fallen dead) C fluxes, where after mortality, C is released slowly during decomposition.

This kind of interpretation that you have made is very common and I have to go through each paper that is suggested in these conflicts to understand the scenarios that create these statements about things like the plausible sequestration capacity of our forests. Different research on perceptibly the same topics is often based on different things. This is called scenario bias. All research is based on scenarios, or is focused on particular criteria that represent specific scenarios. If other important criteria are not evaluated, the particular finding is agnostic on the other criteria. With climate change having so many eyes on it, and so many folks being emotionally vested in their beliefs, is is an enormous challenge to keep up with why certain folks believe what they believe based on the science, or reporting o the science they have read or heard about. This bias in reporting of Harris 2021 is not a bad thing, it is just a thing. All science has caveats. The caveat with this work is that it is a simple inventory of global forests made from others work that is dated in a world where our climate is rapidly changing.

Below are three sets of citations with summaries that interpret the latest individual findings on forest health: one is the on the flip of the Amazon, the other the (relatively) recent increase in forest mortality, and the third is on forest regeneration failure. As an example of how Harris 2021 is biased, the Amazon has been flipping back and forth between sink and source since the first 100-year climate change-caused drought in 2005. Because a rainforest is an extremely rapid carbon cycling machine, it is plausible the Amazon flipped back to a sink before the next even greater than 100-year drought in 2010, then again with the even greater drought during the Super El Nino of 2016. Since, there has been additional publishing on C flux in the Amazon based on independent data collection that shows it is still emitting.

The second set of citations with summaries is on increasing forest mortality globally where in the tropics, Western US, Canada and Europe, mortality is (likely) now double to quadruple normal, where a doubling of mortality halves carbon storage. The mortality is caused by water stress either directly from precipitation drought or indirectly from nonlinearly increasing evaporation from warming. There are certainly forests where mortality has not increased and the net fate of global forests carbon flux could still be positive. There are also other forests that are also very likely now carbon sources that have not yet been published upon (Siberia). The writing is on the wall however. The trend in mortality will not decline because this trend has been caused by a fundamental shift of our climate to a different condition than our forests' evolution. Once evolutionary boundaries are crossed, a system collapses so that it can re-evolve with species and mechanisms that are tolerant of the new conditions. Our old climate represented by the Holocene's natural variation, maxed at around 0.5 to 1.0 degrees C above normal.

The third set of citations and summaries is on the emergency of forest regeneration failure as our climate has now warmed out of its natural variation of the last 10,000 years of the Holocene. A good general statement on regeneration failure is that in the western US, a third of forests that burned around the turn of the century are not regenerating and of the remaining, half are only regenerating at half the 20th century rate (Stevens-Rumann 2017). The literature cited mostly looks at regeneration after fire, but several authors state that beetle killed forests are likely behaving in the same way. You probably also read about the popular press reporting on "zombie forests." This is another ongoing thing in many forests where old trees live on, but because of increased dryness, new trees are not establishing.

Steep trails,

B

~ ~ ~
Amazon Master
~ ~ ~

Amazon emissions of 0.67 Pg C (2.45 Gt CO2eq) from 2010 to 2019 based on satellite canopy density, with forest degradation 3X the loss of deforestation… "During 2010-2019, the Brazilian Amazon had a cumulative gross loss of 4.45 Pg C against a gross gain of 3.78 Pg C, resulting in net AGB loss of 0.67 Pg C. Forest  degradation (73%) contributed three times more to the gross AGB loss than deforestation (27%), given that the areal extent of degradation exceeds deforestation. This indicates that forest degradation has become the largest process driving carbon loss and should become a higher policy priority."
Qin et al., Carbon loss from forest degradation exceeds that from deforestation in the Brazilian Amazon, Nature Climate Change, April 29, 2021.
preprint - 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361323731_Carbon_loss_from_forest_degradation_exceeds_that_from_deforestation_in_the_Brazilian_Amazon
Paywall - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-021-01026-5

Amazon emitting, not absorbing, 1 Gt CO2 annually on average from 2010 to 2018… based on atmospheric measurements over time…  "Considering the upwind areas of each site, we combine fluxes from all sites to calculate a total Amazonia carbon balance for our nine-year study period (see Methods) of 0.29±0.40 Pg Cyr1 (FCTotal=0.11±0.15gCm2d1), where fire emissions represent 0.41±0.05PgCyr1 (FCFire=0.15±0.02gCm2d1), with NBE removing 0.12±0.40PgCyr1 (31% of fire emissions) from the atmosphere (FCNBE=0.05±0.15gCmd1). The east (region 1 in Extended Data Fig.6), which represents 24% of Amazonia (of which 27% has been deforested), is responsible for 72% of total Amazonian carbon emissions, where 62% is from fires. One recent study showed cumulative gross emissions of carbon of about 126.1MgCO2 ha1 for 30yr after a fire event, where cumulative CO2 uptake from forest regrowth offsets only 35% of the emissions. Another recent study13 reported that fire emissions from Amazonia are about 0.21±0.23PgCyr1. Recently, vander Werf etal.24 estimated for the period 1997–2009 that globally, fires were responsible for an annual mean carbon emission of 2.0PgCyr1, where about 8% appears to have been associated with South American forest fires, according to estimates from the Global Fire Emission Data set (GFED V.3). The Amazon Forest Inventory Network (RAINFOR) project showed a decline in sink capacity of mature forests due to an increase in mortality1–3. Adjusting the three RAINFOR studies to a consistent area (7.25×106km2) and taking their mean yields a basin-wide sink for intact forests of about 0.57, 0.41 and 0.23PgCyr1 for 19901999, 20002009 and 20102019, respectively. The NBE from this study is consistent with the RAINFOR results for the last decade, because NBE represents the uptake from forest but also all non-fire emissions, such as decomposition, degradation and other anthropogenic emissions (see Supplementary Table 3)."
Gatti et al., Amazonia as a carbon source linked to deforestation and climate change, Nature, July 14, 2021.
https://pure.rug.nl/ws/files/176729920/s41586_021_03629_6.pdf
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03629-6.epdf?sharing_token=lsfPlVRsW05dUMB_VD-zItRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0NILaci0q8CXtVe4JKM-xF0Z0ZQpmJpnpSclAjJeIV-vCjviXK_Mb9hvvU5C3CiJVgu82-RGuHR01gFiQZAVMzDCCxiRyvlh0MBQxTvGN2oHmf2jIOC7MEEGXrOPGIblsh57v9qXkkZbM7U0OH8zbdQ4jnVO1zD9R1jeDcUVBS22YVLkjWEvC5vrNMdQ416fmEBL9kIHYs2ptVibFKXLxEuh-TQ08w-QGSFzN6221KgguYTe0Q9FoZ1J-Wksf4tWXrjv-xu34UpgYqxQWwLTTbTgHYTuglT_tSVd4WaweL9fg%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=www.theguardian.com

Guardian article above based on Gatti 2021… "The study found fires produced about 1.5bn tonnes of CO2 a year, with forest growth removing 0.5bn tonnes. The 1bn tonnes left in the atmosphere is equivalent to the annual emissions of Japan."
Carrington, Amazon rainforest now emitting more CO2 than it absorbs, Guardian, July 14, 2021.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/14/amazon-rainforest-now-emitting-more-co2-than-it-absorbs

The Amazon is flipping from carbon sink to source 70 years ahead of projections… The Amazon has flipped from carbon sink to carbon source three times 2005, 2010, 2016, with 100-year or more extreme drought, each increasing in severity from the previous event. Flipping three times is a fair enough interpretation. In 2010, the Amazon was near neutral with carbon emissions of 0.07 gigaton C (256 megatons CO2 equivalent.) The 2005 drought created emissions of 0.43 gigaton C (1.6 PgC reduction – 1.1 PgC) or 1.6 gigatons C. The 2016 drought was more severe than either, but the quantity of emissions has not yet been published.

2005 and 2010 Droughts… (Abstract) “Based on these ground data, live biomass in trees and corresponding estimates of live biomass in lianas and roots, we estimate that intact forests in Amazonia were carbon neutral in 2010 (-0.07 Pg C yr1 CI: -0.42, 0.23), consistent with results from an independent analysis of airborne estimates of land-atmospheric fluxes during 2010. Relative to the long-term mean, the 2010 drought resulted in a reduction in biomass carbon uptake of 1.1 Pg C, compared to 1.6 Pg C for the 2005 event.” Therefore, if the 2010 drought was carbon neutral, the 2005 drought resulted in carbon emissions.
Feldpausch, Amazon forest response to repeated droughts, Global Biogeochemical Cycles, July 1, 2016.
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2015GB005133
Press Release - https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2015GB005133

2005 Amazon drought continued to create carbon emissions through 2008 of 1.1 gigatons CO2 per year... (abstract) "Amazon forests have experienced frequent and severe droughts in the past two decades. However, little is known about the large-scale legacy of droughts on carbon stocks and dynamics of forests. Using systematic sampling of forest structure measured by LiDAR waveforms from 2003 to 2008, here we show a significant loss of carbon over the entire Amazon basin at a rate of 0.3 ± 0.2 (95% CI) PgC yr−1 after the 2005 mega-drought, which continued persistently over the next 3 years (2005–2008). The changes in forest structure, captured by average LiDAR forest height and converted to above ground biomass carbon density, show an average loss of 2.35 ± 1.80 MgC ha−1 a year after (2006) in the epicenter of the drought. With more frequent droughts expected in future, forests of Amazon may lose their role as a robust sink of carbon, leading to a significant positive climate feedback and exacerbating warming trends."
Yang et al., Post-drought decline of the Amazon carbon sink, Nature, August 9, 2018.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05668-6

2016 Drought… (Abstract) Tropical and sub-tropical South America are highly susceptible to extreme droughts. Recent events include two droughts (2005 and 2010) exceeding the 100-year return value in the Amazon and recurrent extreme droughts in the Nordeste region, with profound eco-hydrological and socioeconomic impacts. In 2015–2016, both regions were hit by another drought. Here, we show that the severity of the 2015–2016 drought ("2016 drought" hereafter) is unprecedented based on multiple precipitation products (since 1900), satellite-derived data on terrestrial water storage (since 2002) and two vegetation indices (since 2004). The ecohydrological consequences from the 2016 drought are more severe and extensive than the 2005 and 2010 droughts. Empirical relationships between rainfall and sea surface temperatures (SSTs) over the tropical Pacific and Atlantic are used to assess the role of tropical oceanic variability in the observed precipitation anomalies. Our results indicate that warmer-than-usual SSTs in the Tropical Pacific (including El Niño events) and Atlantic were the main drivers of extreme droughts in South America, but are unable to explain the severity of the 2016 observed rainfall deficits for a substantial portion of the Amazonia and Nordeste regions. This strongly suggests potential contribution of nonoceanic factors (e.g., land cover change and CO2-induced warming) to the 2016 drought.
Erfanian et al., Unprecedented drought over tropical South America in 2016 significantly under-predicted by tropical SST, Nature Scientific Reports, July 19, 2017.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5517600/ 

The Amazon has flipped from a carbon sink to a carbon source … A personal email correspondence with Lewis helped with the math… 2.2 and 1.6 Gt of Carbon (C) were killed in 2010 and 2005. It takes four years for half to decay and another 25 for the rest to decay resulting in 0.475 Gt emissions the first four years spread out non-linearly thereafter. The Amazon normally captures 0.4 Gt C in a non-drought year, so for the first +/- ten years after 2010 emissions will be greater than captured C.
Lewis et al., The 2010 Amazon Drought, Science, February, 2011.
Abstract only: 
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6017/554
Press Release: https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/593178

Over 2 billion trees... Lewis is quoted in the Guardian “in the low billions of trees.” http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/feb/03/tree-deaths-amazon-climate

The Amazon tipping point - historic tipping was 4 C warming, 70 years ahead of projections… Considering 4 C warming under BAU near the end of the century, the Amazon has flipped 70 years ahead of projections. "Many studies show that in the absence of other contributing factors, 4 degrees Celsius of global warming would be the tipping point…"
Lovejoy and Nobre, Amazon Tipping Point, Science advances, February 21, 2018.
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/4/2/eaat2340.full.pdf

Last change for action…  "We are scientists who have been studying the Amazon and all its wondrous assets for many decades. Today, we stand exactly in a moment of destiny: The tipping point is here, it is now. The peoples and leaders of the Amazon countries together have the power, the science, and the tools to avoid a continental-scale, indeed, a global environmental disaster. Together, we need the will and imagination to tip the direction of change in favor of a sustainable Amazon."
–Thomas E. Lovejoy and Carlos Nobre
Lovejoy and Nobre, Amazon tipping point, Last chance for action, Science Advances, December 20, 2019.
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/5/12/eaba2949.full.pdf


~ ~ ~
Forest Mortality Master

~ ~ ~

Canada's boreal forest mortality about doubled 1970 to 2020 and  lost (net) 3.5 Gt carbon as CO2, about 90 percent since 2002… "From 1970 to 2020. We show that the average annual tree mortality rate is approximately 2.7%. Approximately 43% of Canada's boreal forests have experienced significantly increasing tree mortality trends (71% of which are located in the western region of the country), and these trends have accelerated since 2002. This increase in tree mortality has resulted in significant biomass carbon losses at an  approximate rate of 1.51±0.29MgC ha−1 year−1 (95% confidence interval) with an approximate total loss of 0.46±0.09PgC year−1 (95% confidence interval). Under the drought condition increases predicted for this century, the capacity of Canada's boreal forests to act as a carbon sink will be further reduced, potentially leading to a significant positive climate feedback effect… The boreal ecosystem accounts for about a third of the Earth's extant forests, containing an estimated one-third of the stored terrestrial C stocks (Bradshaw & Warkentin, 2015; Pan et al., 2011). The land area of Canada's boreal forests (including other wooded land types) covers 309 Mha (Brandt et al., 2013), nearly 30% of the global boreal forested area (Brandt, 2009)… The overall increase in the biomass loss rate led to a significant reduction in biomass over the study period. From 1970 to 2020, the reduction in biomass was estimated at 3.01 ± 0.58 Mg ha−1 year−1 (95% confidence interval) with a total biomass loss throughout the entire boreal forested area of Canada (310 Mha) of approximately 0.93 ± 0.18 Pg, [3.4 Gt CO2eq] of which 83% was aboveground biomass and 17% was belowground biomass." Mortality increase from Figure 1b.
Liu et al., Drought-induced increase in tree mortality and corresponding decrease in the carbon sink capacity of Canada's boreal forests from 1970 to 2020, Global Change Biology, January 3, 2023.
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1962503

Global tropical, high altitude and high latitude forests have likely flipped on average from sequestration sink to emissions source, based on Bauman 2022 and McDowell 2015…

(Summary)
Bauman 2022 shows Australian tropical forests have seen a doubling of forest mortality which translates to a halving of carbon storage. Because forests are only modest carbon sinks, Bauman 2022 suggests Australian tropical forests have now flipped to emitting GHGs. They also suggest that southeast Asian forests are likely behaving similarly. I spoke to Bauman to confirm and he said what he now believes is that globally, because of the same water stress the created a doubling of Australian tropical forest mortality, all tropical forests globally are likely now behaving similarly.  McDowell 2015 describes forest mortality across western North America with ranges from nearly doubling to quadrupling and using the same logic as Baumann 2022, this means these forests are now emitting, not absorbing. This is backed up by findings that Canadian forests (Canadian Forest Service 2020), the Amazon (Gatti 2021) and net permafrost thaw emissions including forest drowning (Natali 2019), are all now emitting and not sequestering. Assuming that western North American high altitude and high latitude forests are also analog to similar ecologies across the globe where a doubling of mortality results in a halving of carbon storage, on average then it is likely that in addition to tropical forests globally, high altitude and high latitude forests globally have also flipped from sink to source. This interpretation is backed up by flips of the Amazon (1 Gt CO2eq emissions annually - Gatti 2021), Canadian forests (250 Mt CO2eq emissions annually - Canadian Forest Service 2020), and permafrost (2.3 Gt CO2eq emissions annually - Natali 2019, where this is net emissions that include drowned forests). We also need to consider the Amazon and permafrost emissions are averages, and both were likely stable at the beginning of the averaging period, therefor emissions at the end of the averaging period could be interpreted as being double the average, assuming a linear increase. This would put emissions from just the Amazon, Canadian forests and permafrost regions at about 7 Gt CO2 annually.
(End Summary)

Australian tropical forest mortality doubled in the last 35 years, mostly recently. A personal communication with Baumann says global tropical forests are likely behaving similarly because of the same water stress… Bauman 2022 analyzed a 49-year record across 24 old-growth tropical forests in Australia and found mortality has doubled because of water stress across all plots in the last 35 years indicating a halving of life expectancy and carbon residence time and suggesting that Australian tropical forests have now flipped from a CO2 sink to a source of CO2 emissions. Further, they suggest Southeast Asian tropical forests are behaving similarly. When I asked Bauman to confirm that Australian tropical forests are analog to Southeast Asian tropical forests,  he suggested what he believed now was that the same water stress is likely affecting all tropical forests globally in a similar way. 
Bauman et al., Tropical tree mortality has increased with rising atmospheric water stress, Nature, May 17, 2022.
(Researchgate, free account required) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/360691427_Tropical_tree_mortality_has_increased_with_rising_atmospheric_water_stress

Mortality of Western North American forests from McDowell 2015 - Increased forest mortality in Western North America between 1980 and the mid-2000s with much of the increase happening recently… It is also pertinent that warming since the mid-2000s has just about doubled as of 2022, and that much of the recent western US forest mortality from bark beetles and increase in burn area was not captured in McDowell 2015:
Mortality of Western North American forests:
-- Sierra Nevada mortality has doubled from 0.75 to 1.5 percent
-- Western Canadian forest mortality has quadrupled from 0.6 percent to 2.5 percent
-- Eastern Canadian forest mortality has nearly doubled from 0.8 to 1.45 percent
-- Western US interior forests mortality has more than doubled from 0.3 percent to 0.65 percent
-- Pacific Northwest forests mortality has tripled from 0.45 to 1.25 percent
McDowell et al., Multi-scale predictions of massive conifer mortality due to chronic temperature rise, Los Alamos National lab, Nature Climate Change, December 21, 2015.
https://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~dsmackay/mackay/pubs/pdfs/nclimate2873.pdf

US West tree mortality from the mid 1950s to late 2000s, more than doubled… This is a good view of early tree mortality trends showing the increasing trend accelerating after the 1970s. Regional mortality in prior to the 1970s was 0.2, 0.4 and 0.8 percent in Pacific Northwest, Coastal California, and the interior. After the 1970s mortality rate accelerated and at 2008 was 0.5, 1.3 and 1.8 percent, indicating a more than doubling to a more than tripling or mortality. Average forest age was 450 to 1000 years.
Mantgem et al., Widespread increase of tree mortality rates in the Western United States, Science , January 23, 2009.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/pnw/pubs/journals/pnw_2009_vanmantgem001.pdf

Globally, Forests mortality more than doubled… "The impacts of global change on forest demographic rates may already be materializing. In mature ecosystems, tree mortality rates have doubled throughout much of the Americas and in Europe over the last four decades (7-9)…  Beyond changing vegetation dynamics within “intact” or relatively undisturbed forests, episodic disturbances are tending to be larger, more severe and, in some regions, more frequent  under global change(17-20).  Similarly, the rates and types of land-use change (LUC) vary widely (21) but have, on average, increased globally in the past few centuries (2,22,23)… Thus, at the global scale, disturbances [climate change related] and LUC [land use change] have likely amplified tree mortality beyond that suggested by the doubling of background mortality rates in undisturbed forests (7-9)."
McDowell et al, Pervasive shifts in forest dynamics in a changing world, Science, May 29, 202.
https://www.dora.lib4ri.ch/wsl/islandora/object/wsl%3A23827/datastream/PDF2/McDowell-2020-Pervasive_shifts_in_forest_dynamics-%28accepted_version%29.pdf

Rosenblad 2023, Thermophilization… Simply put, thermophilization is forest evolution due to warming. It is driven in Western US forests by two factors, recruitment of new heat and drought tolerant species and mortality of less heat and drought tolerant species. Mortality is winning by 2:1. Rosenblad revealsa 20 percent mortality rate in 10 years - four to eight times normal. A doubling of mortality rate halves carbon storage... ""Here, we analyze 10-y changes in tree community composition across 44,992 forest subplots in the western United States... The dataset comprised 316,519 trees that survived between censuses (mean = 5.6 per subplot), 64,024 that died (1.1 per subplot), and 35,836 that recruited (0.63 per subplot)."
Thermophilization... Rosenblad et al., Climate change, tree demography, and thermophilization in western US forests, PNAS, April 24, 2023.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/epdf/10.1073/pnas.2301754120

Canada's boreal forest mortality about doubled 1970 to 2020 and  lost (net) 3.5 Gt carbon as CO2, about 90 percent since 2002… "From 1970 to 2020. We show that the average annual tree mortality rate is approximately 2.7%. Approximately 43% of Canada's boreal forests have experienced significantly increasing tree mortality trends (71% of which are located in the western region of the country), and these trends have accelerated since 2002. This increase in tree mortality has resulted in significant biomass carbon losses at an  approximate rate of 1.51±0.29MgC ha−1 year−1 (95% confidence interval) with an approximate total loss of 0.46±0.09PgC year−1 (95% confidence interval). Under the drought condition increases predicted for this century, the capacity of Canada's boreal forests to act as a carbon sink will be further reduced, potentially leading to a significant positive climate feedback effect… The boreal ecosystem accounts for about a third of the Earth's extant forests, containing an estimated one-third of the stored terrestrial C stocks (Bradshaw & Warkentin, 2015; Pan et al., 2011). The land area of Canada's boreal forests (including other wooded land types) covers 309 Mha (Brandt et al., 2013), nearly 30% of the global boreal forested area (Brandt, 2009)… The overall increase in the biomass loss rate led to a significant reduction in biomass over the study period. From 1970 to 2020, the reduction in biomass was estimated at 3.01 ± 0.58 Mg ha−1 year−1 (95% confidence interval) with a total biomass loss throughout the entire boreal forested area of Canada (310 Mha) of approximately 0.93 ± 0.18 Pg, [3.4 Gt CO2eq] of which 83% was aboveground biomass and 17% was belowground biomass." Mortality increase from Figure 1b.
Liu et al., Drought-induced increase in tree mortality and corresponding decrease in the carbon sink capacity of Canada's boreal forests from 1970 to 2020, Global Change Biology, January 3, 2023.
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1962503


~ ~ ~
Regeneration Failure Master
~ ~ ~

Increased regeneration failure and wildfire risk from warming across the Sierra Nevada (Zombie Forests)… Warming has created regeneration failure and a greater risk of wildfire across up to 19.5 percent of the Sierra Nevada. In this study that compared assumed stable forest conditions from 1915 to 1955, a mismatch in climate and forest regeneration for forest stability was found compared to the period 2000 to 2022. This mismatch is degrading or eliminating regeneration or the ability of sapling trees to survive because of water stress in the warmed environment at lower elevation areas along the western slope of the Sierras. Of most importance in this study, the comparison was made between the average conditions from 1915 to 1955 and 2000 to 2022. Because it is quite likely that the period 2000 to 2022 has seen more warming later rather than sooner during this period, the 19.5 percent mismatch is biased low or is understated.
Full - Hill et al., Low-elevation conifers in California’s Sierra Nevada are out of equilibrium with climate, PNAS, February 28, 2023.
https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article-pdf/2/2/pgad004/49406200/pgad004.pdf
Press Release - Jordan, Stanford-led study reveals a fifth of California’s Sierra Nevada conifer forests are stranded in habitats that have grown too warm for them, Stanford, February 28, 2023.
https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2023/02/28/zombie-forests/

Seedling regeneration in unburned plots is reduced by 15 to 36 percent from 2000 to 2019 in Western forests...
In burned plots, seedling regeneration is 89 percent greater than in unburned plots with regeneration reduced by 28 to 68 percent. This study is based on the average regeneration of 28 different tree species. It also includes a bias where recent warming is greater than earlier warming during the study period of 2000 to 2019, as well as not including the most warming during the period 2020 to present where wildfire burn area  in California increased to Pre-European burned area in 2020.
Hill and Field, Forest fires and climate-induced tree range shifts in the western US, Nature Communications, November 15, 2022.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26838-z
Press Release - Jordan, Stanford researchers reveal how wildfire accelerates forest changes, Stanford, November 15, 2022.
https://news.stanford.edu/2021/11/15/trees-on-the-move/

Poor Ponderosa Regeneration because of climate warming and moisture limitation… "Regeneration density varied among fires but analysis of regeneration in aggregated edge and core plots showed that abundance of seed availability was not the sole factor that limited ponderosa pine regeneration, probably because of surviving tree refugia within high-severity burn patches.  furthermore, our findings emphasize that ponderosa pine regeneration in our study area was significantly impacted by xeric topographic environments and vegetation competition. Continued warm and dry conditions and increased wildfire activity may delay the natural recovery of  ponderosa pine forests, underscoring the importance of restoration efforts in large, high-severity burn patches."
Singleton, Moisture and vegetation cover limit ponderosa pine regeneration in high-severity burn patches in the southwestern US, Fire Ecology, May 7, 2021.
https://fireecology.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s42408-021-00095-3

An era when prefire forests may not return…
"Changing disturbance regimes and climate can overcome forest ecosystem resilience. Following high-severity fire, forest recovery may be compromised by lack of tree seed sources, warmer and drier postfire climate, or short-interval reburning. A potential outcome of the loss of resilience is the conversion of the prefire forest to a different forest type or nonforest vegetation. Conversion implies major, extensive, and enduring changes in dominant species, life forms, or functions, with impacts on ecosystem services. In the present article, we synthesize a growing body of evidence of fire-driven conversion and our understanding of its causes across western North America. We assess our capacity to predict conversion and highlight important uncertainties. Increasing forest vulnerability to changing fire activity and climate compels shifts in management approaches, and we propose key themes for applied research coproduced by scientists and managers to support decision-making in an era when the prefire forest may not return."
Coop et al., Wildfire Driven Forest Conversion in Western North American Landscapes, BioScience, July 1, 2020.
https://doi.org/10.1093/biosci/biaa061

Old trees just don't die, they are killed by something and old forests are a part of a stable ecology… "Large, majestic trees are iconic symbols of great age among living organisms. Published evidence suggests that trees do not die because of genetically programmed senescence in their meristems, but rather are killed by an external agent or a disturbance event. Long tree lifespans are therefore allowed by specific combinations of life history traits within realized niches that support resistance to, or avoidance of, extrinsic mortality. Another requirement for trees to achieve their maximum longevity is either sustained growth over extended periods of time or at least the capacity to increase their growth rates when conditions allow it. The growth plasticity and modularity of trees can then be viewed as an evolutionary advantage that allows them to survive and reproduce for centuries and millennia. As more and more scientific information is systematically collected on tree ages under various ecological settings, it is becoming clear that tree longevity is a key trait for global syntheses of life history strategies, especially in connection with disturbance regimes and their possible future modifications."
Piovesan and Biondi, On tree longevity, New Phytologist, November 25, 2020.
https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/nph.17148

Davis 2019 -- Forests Exceed Climate Change Regeneration Threshold Leading to Non-forested States... The take-away, "In areas that have crossed climatic thresholds for regeneration, stand-replacing fires may result in abrupt ecosystem transitions to nonforest states." The authors "examine[d] the relationship between annual climate and postfire tree regeneration of two dominant, low-elevation conifers (ponderosa pine and Douglas-fir) using annually resolved establishment dates from 2,935 destructively sampled trees from 33 wildfires across four regions in the western United States... [They] demonstrate[d] that ... forests of the western United States have crossed a critical climate threshold for postfire tree regeneration. [They] found abrupt declines in modeled annual recruitment probability in the 1990s for both species and across all regions. Annual rates of tree regeneration exhibited strongly nonlinear relationships with annual climate conditions, with distinct threshold responses to summer VPD [humidity], soil moisture, and maximum surface temperatures. Across the study region, seasonal to annual climate conditions from the early 1990s through 2015 have crossed these climate thresholds at the majority of sites. [Their] findings suggest that many low elevation mixed conifer forests in the western United States have already crossed climatic thresholds beyond which the climate is unsuitable for regeneration. The nonlinear relationships between annual climate and regeneration observed in this study are likely not unique to these two species."
Davis et al., Wildfires and climate change push low-elevation forests across a critical climate threshold for tree regeneration, PNAS, March 26, 2019.
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/13/6193

One third of burned forests are not regenerating at all… Conclusion, "Significantly less tree regeneration is occurring after wildfires in the start of 21st century compared to the end of the 20th century, and key drivers of this change were warmer and drier mean climatic conditions. Our findings demonstrate the increased vulnerability of both dry and moist forests to climate-induced regeneration failures following wildfires. The lack of regeneration indicates either substantially longer periods of forest recovery to pre-fire tree densities, or potential shifts to lower density forests or non-forest cover types after 21st-century wildfires… Our results suggest that predicted shifts from forest to non-forested vegetation may be underway, expedited by fire disturbances [and] that short post-fire periods of wetter climate that have favoured tree regeneration in the past may not occur frequently enough to facilitate tree regeneration in the future, across a broad region and multiple forest types in the Rocky Mountains… Our results suggest a high likelihood that future wildfires will facilitate shifts to lower density forest or non-forested states under a warming climate."

Data, "For sites burned at the end of the 20th century vs. the first decade of the 21st century, the proportion of sites meeting or exceeding pre-fire tree densities (e.g. recruitment threshold of 100%) decreased by nearly half (from 70 to 46%) and the percentage of sites experiencing no post-fire tree regeneration nearly doubled (from 19 to 32%)… This negative relationship demonstrates the potential increased vulnerability and lack of resilience on hotter and drier sites, or of dry forest species, to climate warming… Tree seedlings may establish in response to short-term anomalous wetter periods in the future, but our results highlight that such conditions have become significantly less common since 2000, and they are expected to be less likely in the future…  Further, persistent or long-lasting vegetation changes following wildfires have been observed worldwide." … Sevenens-Rumann 2017 found a significant decrease in tree regeneration in post fire landscapes in the last 15 years (since 2015) vs. the previous 15 years.  For fires that burned in the early 21st century, regeneration tree density decreased by nearly half, and sites experiencing no post-fire regeneration nearly doubled, over fires that burned at the end of the 20th century.

From the abstract, "Forest resilience to climate change is a global concern given the potential effects of increased disturbance activity, warming temperatures and increased moisture stress on plants. We used a multi-regional dataset of 1485 sites across 52 wildfires from the US Rocky Mountains to ask if and how changing climate over the last several decades impacted post-fire tree regeneration, a key indicator of forest resilience. Results highlight significant decreases in tree regeneration in the 21st century. Annual moisture deficits were significantly greater from 2000 to 2015 as compared to 1985–1999, suggesting increasingly unfavourable post-fire growing conditions, corresponding to significantly lower seedling densities and increased regeneration failure. Dry forests that already occur at the edge of their climatic tolerance are most prone to conversion to non-forests after wildfires. Major climate-induced reduction in forest density and extent has important consequences for a myriad of ecosystem services now and in the future."

Stevens-Rumann et al., Evidence for declining forest resilience to wildfires under climate, Ecology Letters, December 12, 2017.
(Paywall) https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ele.12889
Full (Researchgate free account required)
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Monica_Rother/publication/321753770_Evidence_for_declining_forest_resilience_to_wildfires_under_climate_change/links/5a315ae90f7e9b2a284cea8f/Evidence-for-declining-forest-resilience-to-wildfires-under-climate-change.pdf
Press Release, University of Montana -
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-12/tuom-sfr121317.php

Ecological Drought, shifting ecosystems – New Climate Change Drought Category…
“Ecological drought has recently been proposed as a fifth drought metric classification. In contrast to other drought classifications, ecological drought metrics attempt to describe abnormal departures from moisture conditions when accounting for local ecosystems without a human-specific viewpoint of drought effects. Ecological drought metrics identify droughts on longer time and larger spatial scales that have the potential to shift ecosystems—as well as human systems—past their adaptive capacity (Crausbay et al. 2017). Addressing the prevalence of ecologically significant droughts in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries requires a metric suited to addressing long-term ecosystem trends.”
Crockett and Westerling, Greater Temperature and Precipitation Extremes Intensify Western US Drought, Wildfire Severity, and Sierra Nevada Tree Mortality, Journal of Climate, January 2018.
https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/JCLI-D-17-0254.1

 

Anticipated transition from forested to shrubland ecosystems...
"Droughts of the 21st century are characterized by hotter temperatures, longer duration and greater spatial extent, and are increasingly exacerbated by human demands for water. This situation increases the vulnerability of ecosystems to drought, including a rise in drought-driven tree mortality globally (Allen et al. 2015) and anticipated ecosystem transformations from one state to another, e.g., forest to a shrubland (Jiang et al. 2013)."
Crausbay et al., Defining ecological drought for the 21 st century, BAMS, July 27, 2017.
https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/BAMS-D-16-0292.1

Poor Ponderosa Regeneration because of climate warming and moisture limitation… "Regeneration density varied among fires but analysis of regeneration in aggregated edge and core plots showed that abundance of seed availability was not the sole factor that limited ponderosa pine regeneration, probably because of surviving tree refugia within high-severity burn patches.  furthermore, our findings emphasize that ponderosa pine regeneration in our study area was significantly impacted by xeric topographic environments and vegetation competition. Continued warm and dry conditions and increased wildfire activity may delay the natural recovery of  ponderosa pine forests, underscoring the importance of restoration efforts in large, high-severity burn patches."
Singleton, Moisture and vegetation cover limit ponderosa pine regeneration in high-severity burn patches in the southwestern US, Fire Ecology, May 7, 2021.
https://fireecology.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s42408-021-00095-3



Bruce Melton PE
Director, Climate Change Now Initiative, 501c3
President, Melton Engineering Services Austin
8103 Kirkham Drive
Austin, Texas 78736
(512)799-7998
ClimateDiscovery.org
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Bruce Melton -- Austin, Texas

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Jul 20, 2023, 1:27:27 PM7/20/23
to Dan Galpern, an...@paradigmclimate.com, CarbonDiox...@googlegroups.com

Hi Dan and all. See the post I sent out a little while ago. It is extremely important to understand what studies of forests are evaluating and when. An example of recent extreme changes in the state of our forests health that was not included in my previous email is the fate of carbon offset forests in California, plausibly the place with the most forest offset programs in the world.

California's 100-year carbon credit buffer pool has almost completely burned, mostly in fires in 2020 and 2021, showing extreme lack of permanence… "Wildfires have depleted nearly one-fifth of the total buffer pool in less than a decade, equivalent to at least 95 percent of the program wide contribution intended to manage all fire risks for 100 years. We also show that potential carbon losses from a single forest disease, sudden oak death, could fully encumber all credits set aside for disease and insect risks. These findings indicate that California’s buffer pool is severely undercapitalized and therefore unlikely to be able to guarantee the environmental integrity of California’s forest offsets program for 100 years." … "Estimated carbon losses from wildfires within the offset program’s first 10 years have depleted at least 95 percent of the contributions set aside to protect against all fire risks over 100 years." … "the potential carbon losses associated with a single disease (sudden oak death) and its impacts on a single species (tanoak) is large enough to fully encumber the total credits set aside for all disease- and insect-related mortality over 100 years." … "From the program’s inception through our study cut-off date of January 5, 2022, a total of 31.0 million credits (13.4 percent) had been contributed to the buffer pool out of a total 231.5 million issued credits, such that the 31.0 million buffer pool credits insure a portfolio of 200.5 million credits against permanence risks."
Badgley et al., California's forest carbon offsets buffer pool is severely undercapitalized, Frontiers in Forests and Global Change, August 5, 2022.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/ffgc.2022.930426/full

Steep trails,
B

Bruce Melton PE
Director, Climate Change Now Initiative, 501c3
President, Melton Engineering Services Austin
8103 Kirkham Drive
Austin, Texas 78736
(512)799-7998
ClimateDiscovery.org
ClimateChangePhoto.org
MeltonEngineering.com
Face...@Bruce.Melton.395
Inst...@Bruce.C.Melton
The Band Climate Change
Twitter - BruceCMelton1


Nucleation Capital

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Jul 20, 2023, 3:33:12 PM7/20/23
to Peter Eisenberger, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal
Peter,

I appreciate your response.

It makes me happy to hear you say you are "very pro nuclear.”  Also against tax breaks for oil and gas usage.

We agree that humans need energy and a lot of it. Energy equity is definitely important. But so is energy security and energy reliability. We need it all, as energy is as critical to our thriving as is clean air, clean water and food. 

I differ with you in that I believe we neither need nor can we afford to continue to use fossil fuels much longer. Nuclear fission—still the only commercial form of nuclear power—can replace fossil fuels completely, maybe not this decade but likely within a few decades—and provide energy equity, energy security, energy reliability and do in a carbon-free and low ecologic-impact way. France achieved its 70% nuclear powered carbon-free grid in about 15 years in the 70s. We have vastly more experience and could do better than that today, if we wanted to.

We have more challenges than just energy equity (by which I think you mean providing reliable, affordable power to the nearly 1 billion people under-served with energy) and climate change (by which I think you mean we need to eliminate the emissions from our power.) In addition in adding more generation to meet the demand of those who don’t have power today, we need to be able to scale up power grids for the following as well:

   1) Future population growth 
   2) Electrification and the transfer of more liquid fuel uses to the grid
   3) Increasing data processing demands: think the expansion of AI, Internet/cloud usage, data center, crypto mining, etc. growing by leaps and bounds.
   4) Powering all of those Global Thermostat, Carbon Engineering and other DAC, CDR, and CCUS plants trying to restore our climate. 

How much more electric power will be required by this increasingly urgent DAC/CDR activity than what we have today? My estimate is that, if we want to prevent the worst outcomes of climate change, we may need to increase grid power by as much as 25 to 30% from the current global generation levels. The ability to expand electric power generation to do that reliably, with firm (always on), carbon-free power can pretty much only come from scaling up distributed advance nuclear, which modular and more automated plants will likely operate around the clock for 20 years without needing refueling or water cooling. (If anyone has good power estimates for returning our air to 350 ppm CO2 via DAC, please let me know.)

Only nuclear fission and renewables/hydro working together in custom blends (based upon the geography/weather) could shutter all fossil generation and still be able to power our growing grids and industrial process heat operations and create synthetic carbon-neutral liquid fuels (including hydrogen, ammonia, synfuels) to reduce emissions from transportation and heavy equipment, at least until it was all electrified, which will take decades as well. 

In the end, our species may well get its energy from nuclear fusion. But to survive until that time, likely the 2060s, we believe that advanced Gen IV nuclear is required to fully decarbonize our post-Industrial Age world and allow it to transition into the Carbon Managed Age.  

Thank you again for your clarifications, links and engagement here.

Valerie

P.S. In your bold text, did you mean to say “clean energy?"  Those of us who understand the inherent antinuclear prejudice in the term “renewables” prefer to use the inclusive term "clean energy," rather than “renewables.” The definition of renewable varies but often excludes carbon-free nuclear power and large hydro. Even worse, renewable includes many types of combustion energy generation (biomass, biowaste and biofuels) that emit as much carbon as fossil fuels and are not good for the planet without full carbon capture, especially given the short time-frame we have to decarbonize our atmosphere. No one should be subsidizing the burning of biomass.  


On Jul 19, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Peter Eisenberger <peter.ei...@gmail.com> wrote:

Valerie 
I am certainly against any subsidies for oil and gas usage and for subsidies for renewable energy !

I should have been more direct in expressing my view rather than just saying I was against what Oxy was doing to use DAC CO2 to push oil out of the ground where it is only economical because of government subsidies. In fact I am against any subsidy for avoided emissions using fossil fuel sources.
I
My point was that we would need to continue to use fossil fuels because energy equity is the other challenge we are facing since the UN has shown their human development index correlates with energy per capita  
<image.png>
and it will take quite some while for renewables to provide the global demand for energy 

My point of view about the transition we are going through to address the two main challenges we face 
,energy equity and climate change,  is expressed in the not for profit I have founded , Equitable Climate Innovations Institute 
(https://eciinstitute.org/) . By the way I am very pro nuclear because I believe in the end our species will get its energy from nuclear 
and it will be nuclear fusion. If you are interested read REME -- Renewable Energy and Materials Economy -- The Path to Energy Security, Prosperity and Climate Stability https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.14976

I hope this clarifies things but please do not hesitate to voice any other concerns 
Peter 
   
On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 6:37 PM Nucleation Capital <nucleati...@gmail.com> wrote:

Peter,

It is disappointing to hear you talk like this and it appears you have bought into Exxon’s self-serving arguments lock, stock and oil-filled barrel. My question to you is, how much have they invested in Global Thermostat and is it worth it?

Their "business as usual” approach, even with their (hopefully not too modest) investments in Global Thermostat, will doom our planet. What you’ve written is fossil fuel propaganda because nuclear power, which today produces almost 50% of US clean electrons and about 20% of US electricity and 10% of global energy could easily be expanded globally with vastly less mortality than what is caused by using fossil fuels, even before we factor in climate impacts. Every nuclear plant built supplants a coal or gas plant's worth of demand or more and saves lives in the process. But they tend to omit that and are threatened by this fact. You too?

Nuclear combined with renewables creates very cost-effective 100% clean energy combinations, can be deployed globally to meet what is growing energy demand worldwide, of combined electricity, industry process heat, transportation and built environment heat/cooling needs. Of course we want to meet the energy needs of underserved populations but we definitely don’t need fossil fuels to do that!  They just want us to ignore the nuclear option, so we think we do.

You may be correct in saying that renewables cannot grow fast enough to meet those needs but combined with nuclear power and, very soon, Gen IV small modular nuclear power plants, we can create 100% clean, reliable and climate resilient energy systems. Nuclear will come in a wider range of sizes and styles and can be built almost anywhere—even at former coal or gas plants, at industrial plants and even anywhere that CCUS needs a 24x7x52 power source. 

Had the US stayed on the course set by President Kennedy for our nuclear build out, we might not even have the climate crisis we have now. Instead, nuclear was attacked through very effective antinuclear campaigns (most of which had funding from fossil fuel) and so the fossil fuel industry was able to extend its death grip on our energy appetites an extra fifty years, killing millions globally every year with toxic pollution, accidents, and deadly geopolitics, in the interest of serving our energy needs, while actively keeping the public opposed to clean and safe nuclear power

Unfortunately, the world cannot afford to allow that to continue any longer and we must do better than to have our collective will being compromised by the fossil appeasement mindset you now spout, as well as omitting or propagating fictions about nuclear power, which is the best energy mankind's ever developed. We neither need nor can we afford the "slow down the energy transition" mantra spewed by the fossil fuel industry. That is pure bunk.

Of course, I agree that in the 19th and 20th centuries, fossil fuels accelerated human development and population. I also agree that this industry has enormous expertise in global scale projects. However, that does not expunge their sins. They worked to deny climate truth, sought to obfuscate the science to the public, demonized climate scientists and supported deniers and threatened to oppose politicians seeking to address the problem. All to extend their profits and power well past the time that they knew what the impacts of their products’ emissions would be on the planet—and they are still doing so now, more fifty years later. That’s not showing integrity and they deserve to be demonized for that ongoing and greenwashed behavior.

You really want to “come together and repurpose their capability to enable using fossil fuels while we reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere at the same time?”  You really think that will keep our planet from overheating beyond the endurance of the ecosystems that humans rely on?  Have you missed seeing Dr. Hansen's recent climate reports?  I’ve attached the headliner image as a reminder. 

<James Hansen graphic.png>

Michael Hayes

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Jul 20, 2023, 5:50:33 PM7/20/23
to Nucleation Capital, Peter Eisenberger, Carbon Dioxide Removal
If I may,

1) Biochar should likely be an exception to a 'no burning of biomass' view as capturing and utilizing the emissions is possible, and Biochar offers synergies with other CDR methods. 

2) Sea ice production is not a typical CDR topic, yet using marine-grade nuclear plants to generate sea ice will likely help build CO2/CH4 hydrates on the seabed. The list of non-CDR benefits of new ice is extensive.

Thanks for the interesting reading.


Bru Pearce

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Jul 22, 2023, 12:47:12 PM7/22/23
to Nucleation Capital, Peter Eisenberger, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal

Hi Valerie,

 

Fully in agreement with you and I would add:

5)  Food synthesis to feed 9 billion people and freeing up vast amounts of currently farmed land for rewilding.

6) To power adaptation to committed impacts of sea-level rise.

 

Best wishes,,

 

snip_20170110143435Bru Pearce

 

E-mail   b...@envisionation.org  

Web www.envisionation.org  

Skype  brupearce  

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Salcombe, Devon, UK

Information contained in this email and any files attached to it is confidential to the intended recipient and may be covered by legal professional privilege.  If you receive this email in error, please advise by return email before deleting it; you should not retain the email or disclose its contents to anyone.  Envisionation Ltd has taken reasonable precautions to minimise the risk of software viruses, but we recommend that any attachments are virus checked before they are opened.  Thank you for your cooperation.

Dan Miller

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Jul 22, 2023, 7:19:06 PM7/22/23
to Bru Pearce, Nucleation Capital, Peter Eisenberger, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal
I think nuclear is a generally safe, low-carbon form of electricity generation.  But it has 4 serious problems:

1) Nuclear is *much* more expensive than renewables and the trend is getting worse for nuclear. SMR may change that, but not in the near term.  So if you give me $10B to spend on electricity generation, I will give you far more (2~3X) energy with renewables than with nuclear.

2. It takes *much* longer to install nuclear power than RE.  RE takes ~6 months to install and nuclear takes 10+ years.  Climate is a “time is of the essence” problem so this is a big deal.  Again, SMR may change this somewhat but not soon and it will probably not be nearly as fast as RE.

3.  People (and policymakers) have an irrational fear of nuclear power.  It’s not fair but it is true.  I can’t see nuclear growing much while this is true.

4.  Not talked about much, but climate change is upon us and we will likely not get it under control before things get bad (even if we go full out on RE and nuclear).  So many manmade facilities including nuclear power plants will be suddenly abandoned or attacked (e.g., Ukraine).  I would rather see operators walk away from solar and wind power farms than an operating nuclear power plant.

Also, the meme that we require “always on” electricity generation (whatever that means… FF and nuclear are not always on) is just not true.  Many studies show that RE can provide 100% of our energy needs with high reliability and at much lower cost than FF and nuclear power.

As for DAC, almost all DAC systems use some form of “Earth Energy” to run most of their cycle. Climeworks uses geothermal heat, cooling air, and basalt soil chemistry for most of their energy needs.  They don’t use much electricity.  Geothermal is well suited for DAC because most thermal cycle DAC systems need low-grade heat (100~120ºC) to run and that is generally accessible using geothermal most places on Earth.

Dan

P.S. #5 is that heat generated by devices connected to nuclear power plants add to global heat while the energy created from wind and solar was already in the environment so does not add to global heating.  While this heat is small compared to GHG heat generation, it is significant and will cause serious problems in a few hundred years.



On Jul 22, 2023, at 9:46 AM, Bru Pearce <b...@envisionation.org> wrote:

Hi Valerie,
 
Fully in agreement with you and I would add:
5)  Food synthesis to feed 9 billion people and freeing up vast amounts of currently farmed land for rewilding.
6) To power adaptation to committed impacts of sea-level rise.
 
Best wishes,,
 
<image003.jpg>Bru Pearce

Nucleation Capital

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Jul 30, 2023, 4:21:22 PM7/30/23
to Dan Miller, Bru Pearce, Peter Eisenberger, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal
Bru and Dan,

I am responding belatedly to both your last messages. Sorry, busy week!

First Bru,

Thanks and yes, we can’t afford to cover farmland with solar power, as we’ll need our sunny fields for food.  

As to your excellent point #6, adaptation to our changed climate is something most people haven’t thought through. Not only will weather patterns change but with sea level rise, we’ll have salt water intrusions into aquifers, deltas, reservoirs and water systems on massive scale. So higher heat translates to fiercer winds, dust storms, tornadoes and hurricanes where there haven’t been before. It seem forgone that wind turbines and solar panels will be exposed to increased damage risk. That’s before we consider more cloud/smoke cover from longer forest fire seasons like we had here in California in 2020, which caused grid blackouts as the solar failed during the day. 

So we need to be planning for increase energy demand for water purification, desalination, air conditioning, more indoor agriculture, etc. The essence of our unknown future is that it is primarily driven by an utterly changed climate, with dramatic weather and seasonal pattern changes. From a pure practical planning perspective, building up our energy grid wholly reliant on weather that we know is fundamentally changing augments our already enormous risk.

I’m not saying that we shouldn't continue to build some wind and solar but we also be well served to diversify energy sources. As with every type of portfolio, diversification reduces risk. Nuclear power is an extraordinarily valuable component of a climate resilient energy system in part because it is not dependent on weather or “just in time” fuel deliveries and is a reliable hedge against catastrophic weather risks, while providing zero emissions. 
 

Dan, I appreciate that your recognition that "nuclear is a generally safe, low-carbon form of electricity generation.”  It is one of the safest forms of energy we have—far safer than fossil fuels or even hydro power—on a par with wind and solar. But I totally understand how hard it is to “like” nuclear. Still even being open to discussing it is very important, so, I wanted to address your 4 serious problems. You have been consistent across the conversations I’ve heard (such as the one you had with Carl Page on Clubhouse), so happy to add to your evolving knowledge of nuclear.

1) Much more expensive than renewables:  

     A: Renewables were expensive and came down a steep cost curve. Gen IV’s small modular nuclear, because of the pre-fabrication of modules, is expected to follow a cost-reduction curve. 

     B Renewables “cheapness” may not reflect true costs. Analyses have shown that much of the cost decline corresponded with 0% interest rates and ultra-cheap fossil fuel prices (sans carbon capture). Chinese manufacturing may have used forced labor and no allocations to addressing environmental impacts or of life waste (which is factored into nuclear’s costs). 

     C. Rather than looking at component costs, true energy costs are assessed at the system level. Evaluating the actual costs to energy rate-payers of adding intermittent sources to a grid, has consistently shown costs increases. Renewables appear cheap but they add considerable ancillary costs to firm that power (think redundant renewable builds, back-up generation from natural gas, batteries, transmission, carbon credit payments and payments for voltage regulation). Thus, LCOE is not a good metric but rather we need to look at the “Macro Energy Systems” costs as the more accurate “all in” measurement. 

     D. Nuclear plants have a 60 to 80 year life, wind and solar are rated for ~20-25 year life. Analyses using discount rates, depreciation and net present value provide no value in that long life—yet there is value. Power from APS’s Palo Verde plant is the cheapest, most reliable, clean power there is and you can’t buy it because no one wants to give up their allocation. (PG&E and their mismanagement, bankruptcies and flip-flopping on DC is another matter.)

2)  Nuclear takes much longer to install: 

Nuclear isn’t the only type of plant that experiences delays. Renewables can also experience delays (from local opposition, permitting delays, transmission delays, etc.) It is incumbent on looking at the reasons for the delays. Voglte was forced to re-design mid-project by a reg change from the NRC. 

I believe that Gen IV SMRs will hit the market in the second half of this decade with manufacturing of modules, such that we can see faster deployments over the coming 10-15 years. Build times will decline with repetition. Meanwhile, we are currently missing our 50% emissions reduction target for 2030. We’ll have to speed up emissions reduction even more between 2030 and 2050. By them, nuclear as a highly reliable, dense, and scalable energy source for both electricity and industrial process heat may finally be fully valued.

3)  People have irrational fear:   Yes, some people do. However, that is on the wane, as the threat of climate change worsens, support for nuclear grows. There is now record public support for nuclear, very bipartisan support for nuclear in the Congress, and widespread support for nuclear among utility executives. There are no other options for decarbonizing industry, as far as I know, so Dow Chemical is at the vanguard of industry worldwide.   

4)  Doomsday Scenarios.  Well, next-get nuclear, for better or worse, is being described as "walk-away safe.” Automatic shutdowns, natural convection cooling and no melt-downs, make it an ideal type of energy for our future stressed world. 

The "many studies” you cite mostly all come from Mark Z. Jacobson, whose methods and underlying assumptions are both faulty and also not realistic. He’s been scientifically discredited but remains popular with movie stars and ideologues like Amory Lovins. Very few others. Germany, and look where that got them.

The more DAC or any group can use “Earth Energy,” obviously the better. Geothermal, where available, can be great (if not the methane releasing type). I think of nuclear power as a type of “earth energy,” after all, it comes from rocks. These are very special rocks, ones with so much energy compressed into their atoms by the Big Bang, it’s like a gift from God. What’s even more miraculous, is that we have the technological ability to harvest that.

One final point:

Conflict over Means vs. Collaboration towards Ends. Dan, you’ve expressed your objections to nuclear power. I get it, there’s a lot to learn about this scary technology (which takes time and a willingness that most people don’t have) and a lot of anti-nuclear prejudice to overcome that we’ve all inhaled for decades. There are also those who don’t like wind or solar and see them as utterly ineffective as a power source. So, should people like us with different preferences of clean energy types fight to the death to assert our preferred means, while our world gets hotter and hotter? Or should those of us who care to solve climate with 100% carbon-free energy keep our eye on the end goal and agree on a type of clean energy détente, to work together to fight against more fossil fuel plants, more pipelines and more emissions as best we can?  

Let's build as resilient, reliable and cost-effective energy systems as best we can as permitted by geography, resources and political will?  There will be S+W in some places, S+Nuclear in other places. Geothermal+Hydro yet others. Doesn’t matter. Whatever it takes to get the FF out of the system.

I pick the later choice. If we widen the climate advocate tent to support "all the above” clean energy including nuclear, what we get is a complete and reliable energy system that doesn’t need natural gas or coal back-up. This will likely finally send big ripples into the financial market and all those trillions now invested in fossil fuels (that were not going to either W, S or N) will come spewing out of funds and obsoleted projects. This surge of new capital will benefit  renewables, geothermal and nuclear development. I see it’s as a win-win-win for clean energy and climate.

Would you join me in supporting a nuclear-inclusive clean energy détente and help me get these two sides to work together?  The whole world is at stake.

Valerie

Jim Baird

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Jul 30, 2023, 4:45:33 PM7/30/23
to Nucleation Capital, Dan Miller, Bru Pearce, Peter Eisenberger, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal

The energy solution for a boiling planet

A diagram of a heat pump

Description automatically generated

UN chief Antonio Guterres announced Thursday, that record-shattering July temperatures show Earth has passed from a warming phase into an "era of global boiling."

Ocean heat uptake is the essential measure of the Earth’s climate with 93% of the heat of global warming is going into the oceans. Where in the tropics the oceans are thermally stratifying, with lighter water near the surface and denser water at greater depth. 

This configuration acts as a barrier to the efficient mixing of heat,  carbon,  oxygen,  and the nutrients vital to aquatic life. 

Efficient mixing of these ingredients would eliminate all risks of climate change, while producing twice as much energy as is currently being derived from fossil fuels. 

A thermally stratified ocean lends itself to the conversion of a portion of the heat of global warming to work in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics and to the movement,  through heat pipes, of surface heat to deep water where it is no longer any kind of  environmental threat.   

Global warming is problem of thermodynamics, governed by the laws of thermodynamics.

The first law is the application of conservation of energy to the system and shows how energy,  including global warming, can be changed from one form to another,  but it cannot be created or destroyed.

The second law sets the limits on the possible efficiency of a heat engine and determines the direction of energy flow,  which is always from a region of high heat to a lower one.

Geoengineering is a set of emerging technologies designed to manipulate the environment and offset some of the impacts of climate change.

These technologies are typically split into two categories: carbon dioxide removal and solar radiation management.

Thermodynamic Geoengineering is a third way. It is the conversion of the heat of global warming to productive energy as was first demonstrated by the Greek,  Hero of Alexandria,  in the first century AD with his Aeolipile .

While Hero showed his Aeolipile could lift a weight,  in 1845, the English  Physicist James Prescott Joule used a falling weight to spin a paddle wheel in an insulated barrel to demonstrate how this mechanical energy raised the temperature of the water in the barrel.

His mechanical equivalent to heat was a 427 kilogram mass falling 1 meter against a 1 G gravitational field to increase the temperature of 1 kilogram of water by 1° Celsius.

This equivalency between work and heat energy led to the formulation of the first law of thermodynamics.

The thermal stratification of the ocean facilitates the conversion of a portion of the heat of warming to work in accordance with the first law.

The process whereby the conversion of heat to work is accomplished is referred to ocean thermal energy conversion or OTEC, which is one the few non-polluting renewable energy technologies capable of delivering baseload power.

But not all OTEC is created equally.

With conventional OTEC,  water is brought to the surface by massive pipes to condense a working fluid after it has passed through a turbine to produce power after the working fluid has been first vaporized using surface heat. The thermodynamic efficiency of this process is only about 3 percent and the 97 percent of the surface heat diluted by the cold water, is dispersed outward towards the poles that in the case of the Arctic is warmed 4 degrees over the course of 1,000 years at the same time as the tropics are cooled by the same amount.

This upwelling approach is at least two and a half times less efficient than Thermodynamic Geoengineering, which uses both warm and cold water contiguous to the evaporator and condenser, doesn’t dump cold water near the ocean surface, uses pipe that are one order in diameter smaller, thus reducing the entire cost of the system by a third, pumps 1/200th of the fluids, and reduces the parasitic pumping losses of these fluids by a third.

In their paper "Quantification of ocean heat uptake from changes in atmospheric oxygen and carbon dioxide composition,  an international team of scientists calculated the amount of heat gain in the ocean between 1991 and 2016, on the basis of the amount of atmospheric oxygen and carbon dioxide released from the ocean as it warms. They found that the ocean gained on average 1.29 ± 0.79  times 10 to the 22nd power Joules of heat,  which equates to 409 terawatts a year. 

In a 2007 patent filing,  the experimental physicist Melvin Prueitt,  calculated an OTEC system like Thermodynamic Geoengineering,  using a heat pipe to convey tropical heat into deep water could convert about 7.6% of the surface heat to work. 

Four hundred nine  terawatts of heat converted to work at 7.6 percent efficiency, produces 31 terawatts  of primary energy,  about  2.1 times as much energy as is currently being derived from fossil fuels. 

About a sixth of the world’s electricity is currently produced by hydropower, which represents  about seventy percent of our current renewable energy production.

Hydropower exploits the energy potential of gravity, the same way Joules experiment did, but in an open system, gravity is overcome by evaporation that converts surface water into vapor that rises to a higher elevation where it gains greater gravitational potential.

The temperature differential between a tropical surface and a depth of 1000 meters, where the temperature is universally about 4 degrees Celsius, has the same kind of hydraulic potential as the head of a hydroelectric dam.

Each degree centigrade corresponds to a hydraulic head of 427-meters.

Whereas the efficiency of a conventional dam is about 90 percent,  the efficiency of Thermodynamic Geoengineering is about 7.6 %.

An OTEC map shows large areas of the tropical surface with a temperature of 30 degrees Celsius or greater, making a temperature differential between the surface and 1000 meters of 26 degrees, at 7.6 percent efficiency, equates to a theoretical head of 844 meters.

This then has to be halved because Thermodynamic Geoengineering is theoretically an irreversible process, leaving a head of 422 meters.

However, the diffusion rate of ocean heat from a depth of 1000 meters is one centimeter per day through the deepest 900 meters of the ocean and 1 meter per day through the 100 meters of the ocean mixed layer. So, the initial unconverted heat is back at the surface in about 226 years where it can be recycled. In total 13 times making Thermodynamic Geoengineering, at 92.4 %, even more efficient than hydroelectricity. 

The tallest dam in the world at 305 meters is the Jinping dam on the Yalong river in China.

And China also has the largest hydroelectric facility, the Three Gorges Dam on the Yangtze River, with a hydraulic head of 80.6 meters and a capacity of 39.3 cubic kilometers. 

The intertropical Convergence Zone is the best location for implementing Thermodynamic Geoengineering because it spans the equator and cyclones don’t  form there due to the self-cancelling of the Coriolis effect as it switches from positive In the Northern Hemisphere to negative in the Southern Hemisphere.

It has a width of about 7 degrees latitude and covers about 70 percent of the tropical surface for a total of about 28,000 square kilometers, or about 712 times the surface of the Three Gorges Dam, times 5.2 for the difference in hydraulic heads, equals 3700 times the electrical potential of the Three Gorges Dam, which is estimated to cost  US$37 billion and has an installed capacity of 22,500 megawatts.

Prorating 22,500 megawatts and $37 billion to the 31 terawatt electrical potential of Thermodynamic Geoengineering with its estimated cost of $2.9 trillion as estimated and confirmed by Ron Baiman,  Associate Professor of Economics at Benedictine University, and with the Healthy Planet Action Coalition, Thermodynamic Geoengineering is 17 and a half times more cost effective than the Three Gorges Dam.

And although the Three Gorges Dam is for flood control and navigation purposes, as well as for power generation, a catalogue of Thermodynamic Geoengineering benefits beyond power generation lists surface cooling, reversal of the off gassing of oxygen and carbon dioxide from the  ocean to the atmosphere as the ocean warms, the removal of cyclone fuel from the surface to deep water, the reduction of sea level rise due the thermal expansion of the ocean - the coefficient of expansion of sea water is half at 1000 meters  it is at the tropical surface - and heat moved into deep water is unavailable to melt icecaps, produce drought or wild fires, reduces floods, and warming impacts on human health and biodiversity.

At a cost of $2.9 trillion annually, Thermodynamic Geoengineering is $3 trillion cheaper than the $5.9 trillion, the International Monetary Fund has estimated is the environmental cost of doing business burning fossil fuels.

Thirty-one terawatts of energy that in turn cools the ocean surface would reverse the offgassiing of 4.3 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide from the ocean to the atmosphere. And since the notional cost of carbon dioxide removal from the atmosphere is $100 per tonne, This cooling and energy production would save on the expenditure of $430 billion for carbon dioxide removal.

In combination with removing the environmental cost of burning fossil fuels, this energy production would be effectively too cheap to meter.

At scale, it would produce electricity at a cost of 1.1 cents per kilowatt hour.

Wind and solar are promoted as the best renewable energy resources for replacing fossil fuels, but the US National Renewable Energy Laboratory has determined that the total useful surface area  for a wind farm is about 250,000 square meters per megawatt of power and for photovoltaics it is about 16,000 square meters per megawatt.

Considering Thermodynamic Geoengineering would produce 200 megawatts of OTEC from  10,000 square meters of the ocean’s surface, it is a 300 times greater solar concentrator than conventional photovoltaic devices.

The U.S. Energy Information Administration says, energy heat pumps, powered by low‐emissions electricity, are the central technology in the global transition to secure and sustainable heating.

They are currently available on the market and are three‐to‐five times more energy efficient than natural gas boilers.

They reduce householders’ exposure to fossil fuel price spikes and can provide cooling as well as heating, which is responsible for 4 gigatonnes of carbon dioxide emissions annually or about  10% of all emissions.

Like a heat pump, Thermodynamic Geoengineering moves heat through the phases of a low-boiling-point working fluid. But in the latter case this is a free ride. Furthermore, the hotter the ocean surface gets, the more energy this process produces and the more efficient it becomes. 

An  evaporator at the surface passively boils the Thermodynamic Geoengineering working fluid, producing a pressure that allows the vapor to flow into the deep, cold, water at a velocity approaching that of sound, where the vapor condenses to a liquid that is pumped back to the surface to complete the cycle.

This vapor flow is interrupted by a heat engine that changes the work into electrical energy with a loss of only about 4.8% in pumping losses incurred returning the condensed working fluid back to the surface.

In other words, about 12 times more energy is produced by the system as is consumed internally by the pumps.

Heat pumps typically use about five times less energy in their cooling mode than in their heating mode, because in cold weather there isn’t as much heat that can be absorbed from outside the system.

Since Thermodynamic Geoengineering is always in a cooling mode, it is a highly efficient way of cooling the surface. In part because there is always a lot  more cold water in the oceans than hot water, which in the latter case is the principle threat from global warming.

The final obstacle that must be overcome before we can get to a viable fossil fuel transition, is the availability of raw material.

The oceans contain 47 minerals and metals dissolved in solution, some of which are already being harvested.

Thermodynamic Geoengineering platforms harvesting surface heat to produce energy would pass millions of tonnes of water through their heat exchangers, which could be adapted to extract a portion of the 50 quadrillion tons of trace elements that are dissolved in solution in the oceans.

For example, 31,000 one gigawatt Thermodynamic Geoengineering plants would, move 124,000,000 tonnes of water per second through their heat exchangers. Which means the 1.45 quintillion short tons of water - the total mass of the ocean’s water-  would be shifted to these heat exchangers in about 370 years.

The concentration of magnesium, currently valued at between $12,000 to $15,000 per tonne, is 1,272 parts per million. About 3 times the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, which it is notionally being contemplated should be removed from the atmosphere at a cost of about $100 per tonne.

The method of precipitating magnesium from sea water has been know for over a century. And magnesium alloys reduce the weight of heat-removing elements like heat exchangers used for Thermodynamic Geoengineering by a third without losing its heat transferring properties.

At 1272 parts per million of the 1.45 quintillion short tons of water in the ocean, the current cost of the metal would be reduced by several orders of magnitude when produced as an adjunct to Thermodynamic Geoengineering  energy producing operations.

In short, Thermodynamic Geoengineering is the hybrid “Heat Pump”, “Heat Pipe”, “Heat Engine”,  holistic approach to the problems of global warming and fossil fuel replacement. 

image001.jpg

Seth Miller

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Jul 30, 2023, 6:48:51 PM7/30/23
to Nucleation Capital, Dan Miller, Bru Pearce, Peter Eisenberger, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal
Keeping the conversation focused around DAC…

Small, modular nuclear reactors (SMRs) and DAC are fairly well-matched in that DAC requires a large fixed capital investment, and pencils out much better if it has nearly 100% up time and is powered by non-carbon energy. Some forms of DAC are also at a technical advantage in cold, remote locations, far from the grid, where nuclear makes sense but solar very much doesn't. The timetables for scaling the two technologies are even somewhat aligned (though this can be said for DAC + geothermal as well).

Politically, the pairing of DAC with nuclear is somewhat provocative, however. Nuclear has incredible ecological advantages because it uses a dense energy source, but the public tends to freak out about nuclear risks because its denseness might spill over. Dense energy is a double-edged sword! And I personally don’t take seriously the idea that the public is being irrational here, see for example https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-safe-enough. The global reinsurance markets don’t touch nuclear tail risks for this reason. It’s responsible to take both the techno-economics and the politics seriously here.

The DAC community, meanwhile, has its own political battles to fight. If I were a CEO of a DAC company, maybe I’d want the support of the nuclear industry because it’s politically powerful? But maybe, also, this comes with some baggage that I’d rather not deal with until I have to? The answer is probably different for different technologies, and in different places.

DAC will need cheap energy. But there is more than one path forward.


Best,
Seth



-------

Seth Miller, Ph.D.
Check my blog at: perspicacity.xyz

Clive Elsworth

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Jul 30, 2023, 7:20:26 PM7/30/23
to Nucleation Capital, Dan Miller, Bru Pearce, Peter Eisenberger, Greg Rau, Carbon Dioxide Removal
Thanks Valerie
 
I spotted just one mistake. Heavy elements are produced in supernovas (exploding stars), they were not produced by the Big Bang, which was supposed to have produced just hydrogen and maybe a little helium, as I understand it.
 
But the rest of your email and its overall message are great.
 
Clive
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