Yea or Nay? Soma Champs-Elysees on 1986 Trek 400t?

[woode...@yahoo.com]

I noticed that Soma has 1" Champs-Elysees back in stock.  I have a 1986 Trek 400t built with 531 tubing.  The 25.5" frame has a 73 degree head tube angle and the original fork rake is 45mm. 

 The full specs are here:http://www.vintage-trek.com/images/trek/86TrekCatalog.pdf

Any thoughts whether this would be a worth while "investment" over the original fork?   

I'm coming to terms with the fact that I haven't had  time to see any projects through since the beginning of last years holiday season, so last years project list, is this years project list with a years delayed maintenance on top. 

I have a spare Raleigh Competition fork that Monsieur Gugie would be able to massage into perfection, but that adds another level of project to the project, and if present predicts future,  that fork might be in a box till 2222.  

I can wrap my head around swapping out the headset and engineering a stem and riding the bike before having the stearer threaded. 

So Champs-Elysees,   Plug and Play, Yea or Nay?   

[Brad]

If the axle to crown length is right, go for it.  I have one on a bike (Gitane Tour de France conversion)  right now and I really like it. 

[woode...@yahoo.com]

It looks like the Soma fork would be a approximately 5-8 mm longer. 

[Brad]

That isn't a whole heck of a lot.  The width of three to four spokes.  It would provide a very slight up tilt in the top tube. It sounds to me like that is within the range of headset variability. 

[woode...@yahoo.com]

Am I right in assuming I could have the stearer threaded later on? 

[Brad]

I have done it on the Soma fork and on the Kogswell P/R. and on another fork I got from somewhere.   The key thing about threading is that a standard diameter tube was used allowing for a 22.2 stem.  There are some aheadset steerers in certain ultralight applications that are not standard thickness.   SOMA is standard thickness in my experience.  You can even thread just the very top to allow for a locknut to compress a threadless headset and use an internal stem.   The one thing you have to play with is the cable hanger for the brake.  You have to file off the internal tab because you wont have the groove in the fork tube.   Not a biggie. 

[satanas]

Attempting to extend threads on already threaded steerers is difficult and strenuous work; I've done it in the past more than once. If the fork is chrome plated it is even more difficult, plus the threads aren't necessarily going to end up concentric if a die is used. I personally wouldn't attempt to extend steerer threads unless 1) it was unavoidable, 2) it was only by a few threads, or 3) it was on a cheap bike that only needed to function minimally well.

Cutting threads from scratch on a threadless fork is a whole different kettle of fish. It would be much more difficult to start the thread and to keep it aligned - unless the thread can be cut in a lathe, presumably somehow holding the lower end of the fork at the headstock end, and using a steady and/or a live centre on/in the steerer. This wouldn't be a trivial undertaking, and not inexpensive unless you could do it yourself.

Then you have the potential problem that the wall thickness of the steerer may not be designed to have a 22.2mm bore; the walls may be thicker to reduce the chances of breakage and warranty issues. It may or may not be feasible to ream or bore out the ID if this is the case, but would again add difficulty and expense if so.

Given the Soma fork is threadless then IMHO you should plan on using a threadless headset and stem. This will be much cheaper, much easier and more structurally sound as well.

There are plenty of things which could potentially cause grief here, and unless you enjoy bashing your head against the wall then IMHO "discretion is the better part of valour."

Later,
Stephen

[rthrst...@gmail.com]

Can I piggyback on this thread and ask Brad, or others, what the new Champs-Elysees forks weigh? I bought what they call the 'Classic Curve' touring fork (1") back in 2012 or so, and had R/E cycles in Seattle re-rake it for me. That fork weighs about 2.3 lbs with a 350mm uncut steerer. I rode it for some years and thought it was ok, but not nearly as nice-riding as an old 531 fork, like the one on the Trek 400t -- despite the fact that I much prefer trail in the 30s-40s, to trail in the high 50s to 60s.  I'm wondering if these new forks they're making in 1" have the same wall thicknesses of my older Classic Curve -- guessing yes, because they're calling both 'Tange Infinity', whatever that might be these days....If they're lighter, I'll buy one. I did email Soma, but am not hopeful that anyone is going to respond.

best

Art

[Alex I]

Art - Back last year when I was fork shopping for a lower trail conversion, I would've bought the 1" if it was available. I emailed several times with no response. However they did get back to me after a little bit when I sent them a Facebook message. Might be worth trying. In fact, what the heck, I'll go ahead and try to contact them again and ask the weight.

Alex in CO

[Arthur Strum]

Alex, that's a good idea..I'll wait to see if you hear from them, then try myself!

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[Alex I]

Also back when I was digging for one of these, I tried to find fork blade info. Back in 1988 Infinity was 1.0 fork blade wall thickness like many Cr-Mo forks are. I think Columbus SL for instance was 0.9, while most hi-ten examples I've seen are 1.2 when reported? 531 is tapered I think so varying. But I'm no expert just using Google so could be way off-base. Based on that, a bit heavier than a high end fork, but lighter than a hi-ten fork (counting blades only, not crown and steerer). I know that's not too much info to go on, but something.

http://velobase.com/CatalogScans/Tange_1988.pdf

Vintage Trek site has general info on several classic fork blades and wall thicknesses:

http://www.vintage-trek.com/refurbish.htm (scroll down to the table)

Alex in CO

[woode...@yahoo.com]

Well, I went ahead and ordered the fork.  Now the cascade starts as I need to decide on headset, stem, handle bars and a front rack.

I need to buy a headset.  Question will be to go directly to a roller bearing headset? 

 I have a set of the wide VO Maes Bend bars that I was going to use with the original high/mid trail fork.  I'm probably  going to want to go with narrower Nitto randonneur  bars of some sort.   

It looks like I will have shims on both ends of whatever stem I use. I have the hardware to mount a Berthoud decaleur to an ahead stem. This is the bitter pill of a plumbers nightmare that I must swallow. 

I have a Nitto m-18 front rack I was going to use with the original fork. The Soma fork has dedicated mounts, and they make a "Champs-Elysees"  rack, but I'm assuming that I will be much easier to get the Nitto rack  fit down low to the 650b fender and as close to the head tube as possible with a bag. 

[Alex I]

Awesome! Do let everyone know how it goes. What brakes are you thinking for the long reach aspect of this setup? My Tektro R559s barely reach my ~60mm raked fork wheel, bottom of slot, with similar A/C. Could probably file down a mm or two if ever needed.

Alex, forking around in CO

[woode...@yahoo.com]

If Tektros or Dia-compe 750's don't do it I've got a set of CLB raid clones.

[rthrst...@gmail.com]

to the OP: did you buy the canti or road version of the Champs Elysees? Please do weight it if you have a chance -- seems to be hard to get this info from SOMA!

Art

[woode...@yahoo.com]

Its the road fork.  I'll get you a weight next week. 

[Alex I]

So I got a reply on Facebook to email them, and got an answer to the question I didn't quite ask (canti fork). I'll see what I can get asking about the road fork, but figured I'd post anyways.

" The weight of the Soma #23270 Champs Elysses 1" canti chrome fork is 1174g uncut. Thanks. " 

[Alex Israel]

And I got the road fork info. See below

“Ok here we go.  The weight of the# 23271 Champs Elysses road fork is 1092g uncut..  Good luck with your build!”

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[David Cummings]

I’ve seen threads extended, and they don’t look as good as the originals. Not sure if the shop’s die was old and worn, but I would concur with being cautious about extending threading a stem past a few turns of the threads.

David in MT

[David Cummings]

Oh, and the Champs-Elysées is a busy street,
We gettin’ down with everyone we meet.
Parlez-vous français?

David “testing art vs science” in MT

[rthrst...@gmail.com]

Thanks, Alex -- that's helpful! Sounds like weights are very similar to my re-raked early teens Soma touring fork. 

Art

[Alex I]

Any updates/feedback on the fork? Get it installed yet? Weight versus what you hoped for? 

I keep coming back to this fork as a potential swap on my 650b conversion (currently sporting a high-rake Fuji hi-ten fork). With regards to the tubing and weight, the more I think of how I ride the bike, with some washboard/bumpy roads mixed in, maybe a crude bunny hop or two, I'm not sure I'd mind the bit extra wall thickness and heft that's likely on this fork versus the lightweight 70s era road forks. Just my two cents though, without actually having anything nice to compare to. I am working on a 1982 Trek 613 with the dreaded "death fork" (search here and BikeForums for more info) - maybe would be a good option for that one as well.

Alex, just forking around, in CO

On Thursday, October 22, 2020 at 6:15:16 AM UTC-6 woode...@yahoo.com wrote:

[Stephen Poole]

FWIW: I have a Surly Troll and it had 26x1.9" Ritchey Crossbites on it most recently. The fork is quite stiff, but the ride was only noticeably rough over bad corrugations, for a second or two at a time. With suitably large tyres a stiff fork can be quite okay, not that it hurts to have a comfy one. If there was only one thing I could change on the Troll it would be the BB height (15-20mm lower), not the fork. YMMV.

If you have narrower, higher pressure tyres (<=42mm) and lots of concrete pavement joints a flexy fork is a much bigger deal IME. 47+mm tyres seem to make a significant difference to comfort on rough stuff, but of course they're heavier and slower so sadly not perfect. And by no means do they blot out everything either.

Later,

Stephen

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[woode...@yahoo.com]

The way things are going, I wont have the fork installed on a bike until next summer.  My first impressions are that it is heavy and the crown is wider than it needs to be for non cantilever brakes.  I'm also surprised that there are no mid fork rack mounting bosses on a fork that  is  heavy enough for "touring".   I have a couple frames that I might try it out on, initially with 38mm tires, but if they work out, I can do a little chain stay  dimpling and get to 42mm with out any limits from the fork.