Miche 1" headset too stiff

[Dave Redmon]

My trusted LBS mech installed my new Miche 1" roller bearing headset on my Rawland Stag yesterday, explaining that to seat the bearings properly with minimal slop, steering would be quite stiff. I rode 10 miles on pavement and trails, but often it was all I could do to stay upright. Has anyone else experienced this problem? Is there a solution?

Dave in Kansas

[James Swan]

I have the same headset on my bike and I have no such issues. In fact, I find it to be better at damping out no hands shimmy then an (optimally tuned) Viscoset. 

Your mechanic’s theory of having to set the headset tight to “seat the bearings” is nonsense. My guess is that either the head tube or the crown race seat is out of square. 

Jamie Swan

H: 631-754-1457
C: 516-238-6782
W: 516-403-5945
http://www.jamieswan.net

http://www.webb.edu

http://www.limws.org
http://www.liatca.org

On Nov 25, 2018, at 1:33 PM, Dave Redmon <daver...@hotmail.com> wrote:

My trusted LBS mech installed my new Miche 1" roller bearing headset on my Rawland Stag yesterday, explaining that to seat the bearings properly with minimal slop, steering would be quite stiff. I rode 10 miles on pavement and trails, but often it was all I could do to stay upright. Has anyone else experienced this problem? Is there a solution?

Dave in Kansas

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[lj mangin]

Hi Dave

I also use this headset (actually I have one on my Rawland Stag) and have not had the issues you described.  I installed and tightened it in a typical fashion, though I have noticed that I needed to pay close attention to the dust seals to ensure that they are properly in place.  It works flawlessly on my Stag.

John M

[satanas]

With needle bearing headsets:

1. The steerer tube *MUST* be straight. If not, the headset is guaranteed to bind
2. The head tube should be reamed and the crown race should be milled square
3. Adjustment is as per normal, i.e., usually that means as loose as possible without play
4. There will be a little more drag than with other bearing types, but if you're having trouble steering it's either way too tight, incorrectly installed, or something isn't straight

Later,
Stephen (who has installed numerous Stronglight, Miche and Primax headsets, always after machining the frame and fork)

[Ken Freeman]

What Stephen said!  Dave's headset is either badly overtorqued, the cups are not aligned somehow.  I've always found headset installation and setup goes better when the headtube faces are cut square and aligned.  Such a huge difference! 

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Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

[Evan Estern]

I use the Miche roller bearing headset on my Stag as well.  It's tricky to adjust--I took it to my LBS where I had them install the races for me.  The mechanic is an older guy, very experienced and he also installed and adjusted the fork--why not--no extra charge.  When I got home I found he had adjusted it way too tightly and upon disassembling and readjusting it myself I discovered that one of the quirks of the Miche (at least my version) is that you can only adjust it tighter: that is, loosening the plug in the steerer tube will not loosen the adjustment, you have to pull it out, start over and then just tighten it until it's just right.  Too tight?  Start over again.   Once I figured this out and got it adjusted to my satisfaction, I have not had a singe issue with it. 

[Andrew Squirrel]

That's interesting on the plug. How many people that use this headset are using the plug instead of a starnut?

I didn't even bother with the plug and pushed in a 1" starnut and haven't had any adjustment problems.

[Hahn Rossman]

It's also worth noting that the tapered part under the top cap has nasty casting flash on it from the injection molding. A quick deburr is necessary

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[mimo...@gmail.com]

I ran into this issue a few years ago as well - it seems like others have too.  It was discussed on the rcog group which no longer seems to be accessible.

I had a similar problem when I installed my Miche Primato on my Stag.  I discovered that the top race cover (that should rotate with the rotating steerer) was bottoming out on the upper head tube race gasket (that is attached to the headtube) before it made contact with the bearings.

Effectively, the black plastic compression ring that sits above the race seemed to be too short.

I added a washer from a threaded headset above the black plastic compression ring.  This allowed the top race cover to apply preload pressure to the black plastic compression ring before bottoming out on the upper head tube race.  The headset works very well now.

One photo shows the top portion of the headset "exploded" on the steerer.  The added 1" washer that applies pressure to the black plastic compression ring is below the headset top cap.

The other photo shows these three parts laid out in assembly order.

[Steven Frederick]

Yep, I had this same problem-I think there was a bad batch of these headsets-either they were a little off spec or a part was left out.  I remember you posting this solution to Rcog but by that time I'd already given up and replaced my Miche headset with another brand.

Steve

[Nathan Briles]

I had one of these headsets and experienced the same issue. No matter what I did, I always has tight, notchy steering.
I could have the headset just finger tight and the steering would still feel unmanageable. I swapped out the top portion of the headset with a regular roller bearing headset and the problem basically went away

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 11:33:34 AM UTC-7, Dave Redmon wrote:

My trusted LBS mech installed my new Miche 1" roller bearing headset on my Rawland Stag yesterday, explaining that to seat the bearings properly with minimal slop, steering would be quite stiff. I rode 10 miles on pavement and trails, but often it was all I could do to stay upright. Has anyone else experienced this problem? Is there a solution?

I have three of those running very smoothly on bikes. Properly adjusted they feel like other headsets while riding. The extra steering-dampening they provide is not noticeable while riding, and shouldn't be. So I guess I'm disagreeing with what you were told by your LBS mech. 

I'd suspect that one of the bearing sets/races was installed upside down. That's very easy to do on these Miche headsets because one of the bearing sets (upper or lower I can't remember) looks upside down to someone experienced with traditional headsets. On one of my Miche headset builds, the first ride it felt too stiff by far and if I tried to fix that by re-adjustment it got slop--there was no adjustment it would allow that was smooth-turning without slop. It dampened steering too much and didn't self-steer properly when riding no-handed. Since it wasn't the first Miche I'd set up I knew it wasn't supposed to feel that way and guessed I'd installed it wrong. Kind folks here and on iBob supplied jpgs of the headset parts lined up in the right order and orientation, and I found I had to flip one of the bearing sets/races I'd installed. After it was back together if rode very smoothly just like the other two.  

These are the two photos I used to figure it out. If you take yours apart, keep all the parts in their up/down orientation as you take them apart and lay them out like the photos. Then you can see which one is reversed. 

If indeed that is the problem with your Miche.

Mitch

in Utah

[Brad]

Clearly the part count precludes use with a rinko bike.   I have a Miche headset which remains in the box because other options were simpler to install and harder to loose a part in the installation process.  Loosing a washer is as much of a pain as chasing a loose ball.

[Jeffrey Kane]

I will say that those aluminum races are not particularly sturdy -- I gouged one a tad after reinstalling the bearings once -- but after getting the order correct still aren't having the problem described above. 

Here's a stacking order guide I once saved from an old post on the list. I can't remember the who the OP was or if it came from here, iBob or the old Stag list but it's good and has saved my arse when I've mixed up the parts after maintenance -- most recently in September, even. 

It works for the threaded and treadless versions (I have both). I suggest anyone using these headsets print this out and stuff it into your tool box or keep it somewhere handy!

Miche headset installation order from bottom to top:

1. thin black plastic ring, with the beveled edge facing down (very important detail!)

2. race ring, smaller diameter

3. roller bearing ring

4. race ring, larger diameter

 

So all of the above sit upon the fork crown race and will fit up into the lower headset cup.

Then, from the upper headset cup, going up:

 

1. race ring, larger

2. bearing

3. race ring, smaller

4. small, but thicker, black plastic ring... with beveled edge facing down (for treadless only -- there's no plastic ring for the threaded version)

5. top cover

Good luck / ask

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 6:25:57 AM UTC-5, mitch....@gmail.com wrote:

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Thanks for that stacking order Jeffrey. Does the stacking order you list match the photos I posted? One photo I posted is a threaded Miche and shows only one half of the stack order; the other shows a threadless. 

As Jeffrey’s list shows, there are two steel bearing races for each plastic needle bearing holder--the plastic bearing holder rides in-between the two steel races. In each race set one of the bearings is smaller than the other and it matters which one is on top.

The install problem for me was that one bearing/race set (the upper according to the photos) sits pointing upward like a bowl which is not how you would think a headset bearing would sit. That’s the part I installed wrong, if I remember correctly, and had it pointing down like an umbrella. It fit and worked in the stand that way, but on the road it resulted in the symptoms the OP was having. Flipping it up so it sat like a bowl fixed it. 

Even if your bearing/race sets are oriented correctly up/down, I think you could have the issues you reported if the small/large steel races are in the wrong position and need to be switched. 

Mitch AKA Miche

in Utah

[Stephen Poole]

It shouldn't be too hard to get things the right way around, assuming the cups get pressed into the correct places; be careful with headsets with "inverted" top sections, i.e., those with two similar appearing pressed-in cups, rather than a cup at the bottom and a cone at the top.

The smaller SS bearing surfaces go on the "concave"/inside surface of the needle bearings, and vice versa, no matter which way the top bearing is oriented.

Some needle bearing headsets do have the top bearings inverted, compared to others, but orientation of the bearings should be obvious from looking at the pressed-in parts - they are oriented the same way as the taper in the cups, NOT the other way around.

So, from the bottom you have:

0. Fork

1. Crown race (usually alu, if steel #2 may be absent/integrated)

2. Smaller SS bearing surface

3. Needle bearing insert

4. Larger SS bearing surface

5. Cup pressed into frame

6. (Headtube)

7. (i) Upper pressed cone (usually alu, if steel #8 may be absent/integrated), OR (ii) upper cup pressed into frame

8.  (i) Smaller SS bearing surface, as #2, OR (ii) Larger SS bearing surface, as #4

9. Needle bearing insert

10. Whichever SS bearing surface you have left, if (i) it will be #4, if (ii) it will be #2

11. Top cup if (i), or top cone if (ii)

12. Spacer(s) and locknut if threaded, or other parts if threadless

IME, those needle bearing headsets which have separate alu cups and loose SS bearing surfaces on *BOTH* sides of the needle bearing inserts last much better than those with steel races and integrated bearing surfaces. The only downside is that the crown races are a bit more delicate, but since it's basically essential to mill the head tube and crown race seat anyway that shouldn't be an issue provided installation isn't done with a hammer or crowbar(!).

There are a number of variations, what with threaded versus threadless, different top bearing and cup/cone orientation, separate versus integrated bearing surfaces, brands, seals, etc. They all seem to work, but IMHO Stronglight got it right the first time.

Later,

Stephen

[Squire Black]

This is an old thread, but it helped me a lot as I was puzzling over my new-to-me Miche Primato.   

mitch.harris wrote:

> Thanks for that stacking order Jeffrey. Does the stacking order you list match the photos I posted?

Almost, but not quite.  In the photo, the stack order for the top race has the upper needle bearing insert and the steel bearing surface interchanged.  The needle bearing insert should be between the two steel bearing surfaces; Mitch's photograph shows it on top of them.    Importantly, the lower needle insert is oriented like an umbrella (following the contour of the crown race), while the upper needle insert is oriented like a bowl (following the contour of the upper pressed cup).  

One thing I don't understand is this comment by evanestern:

> I discovered that one of the quirks of the Miche (at least my version) is that you can only adjust it tighter: that is, loosening the plug in the steerer tube will not loosen the adjustment, you have to pull it out, start over and then just tighten it until it's just right.  Too tight?  Start over again. 

I don't see why this should be.  Doesn't the plug jam in the steerer like the expander bold of a stem?  Why should the plug behave differently from a star-fangled nut?  If I loosen the bolt in the cap, why doesn't that decrease the pre-load on the top bearing?  Of course, if I loosen the bolt more, the plug will un-jam, and the pre-load will go to zero, and I'll have to start over, but within the range of normal adjustment, I don't see why I can' just tighten and loosen in the normal way.

If indeed I can't, I'm going to use a star-fangled nut instead.  But I want to understand why — that's the kind of brain I have.

[Stephen Poole]

With *any* threadless headset, it's entirely possible for the adjustment parts (usually cones) to jam together, just as expanders on quill stems do. Sometimes one has to loosen off the stem clamps around the steerer, undo the central bolt a bit, and then bounce the front wheel on the ground to free things up. The Miche threadless headsets do use a SFN as far as I can tell, unless you have a carbon fork and steerer; in that case an expanding bung would be used, assuming they exist for 1" steerers.

As for adjustment, you want it to be as loose as possible with no play, as with most bearings. There will be more drag than with ball or cartridge bearings, but this is allegedly a feature rather than a bug, as apparently sometimes it might reduce the odds of shimmy. (In my case it did not.)

If the headset is hard to turn or low speed handling is dreadful then most probably the headset is too tight(!), and should be backed off a bit; tightening the adjustment further to try to eliminate shimmy is IMHO a really bad idea as it's IME going to degrade handling, and increase the chances of headset wear or pitting.

It's been said before, but bears repeating: the headtube and crown race seat should always be machined for needle bearing headsets, and the steerer *must* be straight. Brute force should not be needed or applied at any stage.

Later,

Stephen

[somervillebikes]

As a feature, it's not just alleged, it's been proven by many. The whole point of a roller bearing headset is to introduce friction... resulting in a smooth and measured drag. I have bikes that were shimmy monsters before being tamed by simply swapping out the headset for a roller bearing headset. The thing to keep in mind with these headsets is that they are very sensitive to preload, and require just a small amount to create that drag.

Anton

velolumino.com

[Stephen Poole]

IMHO the real points in favour of needle bearing headsets are durability, combined with light weight. We used to sell quite a few small Cannondale road frames in the early 90s, and these ate normal headsets rapidly; once needle bearings were in there were no further problems, and we ended up fitting them as the default.

As for shimmy prevention, my point is that this is *NOT* guaranteed - results can and will vary. Overtightening needle bearing headsets gives very heavy and strange steering, especially at low speeds, which IMO/IME is totally unacceptable. YMMV, but I don't see how.

As the saying says: "Nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes."

Later,

Stephen

[Evan Estern]

It's been years now since I touched that adjustment and time has dimmed my recollection somewhat, but on the one example that I installed on my bike, adjusting the preload tighter would indeed tighten the preload, but unscrewing that same bolt would not loosen it, I had to remove the upper assembly, loosen it by hand and start over.  Maybe they perform differently on different steerer tubes/forks, but in my case that's how it worked.  It's a very smooth headset when properly set up and adjusted. 

[Alex Wetmore]

I just use the Miche needle headset with a standard starnut.  The miche setup was more complicated and heavier, so why use it?

-Alex

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From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Evan Estern <evane...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2021 1:50 PM
To: 650b <65...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [650B] Re: Miche 1" headset too stiff

 

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[Hahn Rossman]

The dingus that comes with the miche headset is annoying and unless you are installing it into a 1"carbon steertube, you are better off with a starfangled nut. 

Hahn Rossman

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[Michael Arciero]

I always found it ironic and mildly unsatisfactory that these things work by exploiting the very thing they were designed to minimize: friction. I am pretty sure that the rollers are cylindrical, making slippage against the race necessary as the bearing moves about the circumference.  Given the overall quality of these bearings it would appear that would have been a cost-cutting measure.  A better design would be to have  conical with larger diameter at the outside.  Maybe they would still have enough friction to dampen shimmy but be smoother and address  the touchy adjustment some experience. Or not.  

A few years ago I recall seeing Cane Creek headsets with viscous damping in 1 1/8 size designed with ebike use in mind. For some reason that seems more satisfactory to me, though its still friction. Not sure if they ever did a   1 inch. 

[Jamie Swan]

Cane Creek was considering making a 1" version of their Viscoset steering damper headset, but they decided against it. I'm friendly with one of the principles at Cane Creek, and he gave me three of the 1.125 versions to experiment with. I fabricated cups that would allow them to work with a 1" steerer. I gave one to Johnny Coast, another to Peter Weigle, and installed one on my own bike. We all played around with them and compared notes. Out of the box they provide way too much damping. It took considerable experimentation to get them tuned properly to damp out the low speed, no hands shimmy that is so common on low trail bikes with light gauge standard diameter tubes. Once tuned they worked OK but turned out to be a little temperature sensitive. Surprisingly the damping wound up being insufficient on really cold days.

Here are some pics:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/48950170@N03/albums/72157699445613405

Jamie Swan

http://www.jamieswan.net
http://www.webb.edu

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 7:59 AM Michael Arciero <mike.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

I always found it ironic and mildly unsatisfactory that these things work by exploiting the very thing they were designed to minimize: friction. I am pretty sure that the rollers are cylindrical, making slippage against the race necessary as the bearing moves about the circumference.  Given the overall quality of these bearings it would appear that would have been a cost-cutting measure.  A better design would be to have  conical with larger diameter at the outside.  Maybe they would still have enough friction to dampen shimmy but be smoother and address  the touchy adjustment some experience. Or not.  

A few years ago I recall seeing Cane Creek headsets with viscous damping in 1 1/8 size designed with ebike use in mind. For some reason that seems more satisfactory to me, though its still friction. Not sure if they ever did a   1 inch. 

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