Switchback Hill tubeless and sidewall leaks

[njh...@gmail.com]

In case anyone else has the same puzzling symptons:

I installed a pair of Switchback Hill tubeless a few months ago (60ml of Orange Seal in each tyre), sloshed the wheels around vigorously after inflation, and for about the first three months they held pressure fine - they might lose 5psi over the course of a week. However, the front started losing pressure more rapidly - if I pumped it to its normal 25psi, it would be fine for a several hour ride, but would be down to about 10psi the next day. I went over the tyre carefully and couldn't see any indication of cuts or visible signs of sealant escaping. I replaced the valve core in case that was the cause of the slow leak, but that made no difference.

Eventually I got tired of pumping the front tyre daily, filled our bath a few inches deep so I could completely submerge the tyre section by section, and this showed that the sidewalls had very slow leaks at a couple of the locations where the moulding process leaves small knobs of rubber sticking out from the sidewall of the tyre, and the normal process of riding the bike was not letting the sealant get to these points to seal them. I added another 40ml of sealant to the tyre, pumped it to pressure, and sloshed it around vigorously for a couple of minutes. Since then the pressure loss is no longer happening, though I still can't see any visible sign of sealant at the points where it was previously leaking.

I also have a couple of bikes using 700c tubeless - Schwalbe S-One and G-One, and no problems with those, nor with another 650b machine on which I I'm running the Hutchinson Confrérie des 650B tubeless (the sidewalls on those seem completely airtight, even though they're not intended as tubeless tyres).

[Reed Kennedy]

My experience with Switchback Hills run tubeless was similar. They leaked air audibly through the teeny sidewall nipples until I left the wheels flat on one side for a few minutes, then on the other side for a new minutes. Since that simple procedure everything has been roses. 

Reed

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Adrian Alday]

right on, id say laying down on each side is good tubeless practice for any tire.

[Michael Arciero]

Are these EL?  I have the standard casing SBH and these do lose air over a period of days. They might take several days to go from 40psi to 30psi,  so much slower than you guys have experienced.   I also have the WTB Byways on another bike and they are much slower with air loss-almost on par with tubed. 

[njh...@gmail.com]

No, I'm using the standard casing version. And as I stated in my original message, when setup as tubeless they held pressure fine for the first three or so months of use before the front tyre started exhibiting the problem. The rear tyre has only ever lost maybe 5psi/week in pressure since it was installed.

[Andrew G]

Resurrecting this thread bc these tires are garbage. I’m on the side of the road pumping up $80 tires that don’t hold air.

I’ve put more than enough sealant in them and have sloshed them around, ridden into them (short rides), and laid them on their sides.

Every time I pump them up a new seam bursts and the sealant has to do its thing. Have only ever pumped them to 40psi.

Worst $160 I have ever spent on my bike (I unfortunately bought two tires).

Learn from my misery and spend your money elsewhere.

[Nathan Zambon]

First time SBH user here, picked up standard casing tires on DT Swiss XMC 1200 rims, 25mm inner width.  Using Orange Seal, popped right on, no sealant seepage and have about 200 miles on the setup so far and loving it! YMMV...what kind of sealant are you using?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/7806b2ca-2dcc-4f63-946d-21b00c1f2590o%40googlegroups.com.

--

Sent from Gmail Mobile

[Eli Torgeson]

Hi Andrew
We all feel your pain.

I have set up oodles of tires tubeless. I have done it with all kinds of mismatching suboptimal setups: Non tubeless rims, no tubeless tires, gorilla tape, inner tube fillet, presta in schraeder valve hole, cut out valve, 700d on 650b rim.

Generally, the frustration is in the setup. Sometimes I describe the process as a one, two, or three beer exercise. It's a real bummer when the problems happen AFTER you got it all set.

My riding buddies and I have a rule that you can't ride with the group until 2 days after setting up tubeless. (Similar rule applies for untested brand new suspension setup when mtbing.)

None of that, however, applies to your situation.

All I can say is, sorry, that sucks. Once you get past your intense disappointment, I would remove the rim/tire combo from use, and, as folks have said, try sloshing and laying your rim on its side, for like the next few days, occasionally rejiggling and setting down, and periodically adding pressure.

I have a bsp on the front of my Rawland commuter. 5000 Miles and steady. Last week I had the tire flat upon leaving work. After some trouble shooting I determined it was the valve that was starting to pull through the rim as it gets snugged frequently and after over a year, was in trouble.

I tubed the tire to get home, and then set it back up tubeless. One thing I noticed was that the inside of my tire was many millimeters thick with OrStan (mix of Stan's and orange seal). Maybe that defeats some of the suppleness, but I learned some time ago not to strip it off. My latex layer means no sidewall leakage at least.

Eli
In Albuquerque
PS: the worst sidewall issue I had was with the GB ecureuils. Painted them with carpet adhesive.

[Andrew G]

Thanks everyone. I've definitely cooled off, but I'm still disappointed in the experience. Also, forgot to add, I have the extralights. I used Bontrager sealant (what my LBS offers), though people really seem to dig the Orange stuff.
As for my setup, brand new tubeless compatible rims and tape. Again, I'm only having issues with the sidewalls and even the tread leaking. The best rim tape in the world won't affect this.

I get that tubeless can be finicky, but I think this is a little ridiculous. That said, I'll keep trying and will update. And again, I appreciate the responses. Sorry I was a little hot (literally and figuratively) when I fired off my earlier post :)

My eyes popped out when I saw someone had to use carpet adhesive :D

[Steve Chan]

    FWIW, I have been rolling on pre-tubeless BSP EL with Orange Seal for years. The tires don't hold air very well long term (needs to be pumped up again within 2 weeks) but they haven't popped on me during any ride.

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 8:46 AM 'Eli Torgeson' via 650b <65...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

PS: the worst sidewall issue I had was with the GB ecureuils.  Painted them with carpet adhesive. 

   Carpet adhesive? Hmmmm. They sell silicone tent sealant for seal sealing tents which I thought might work and remain very supple - people also DIY that stuff by mixing mineral spirits and silicone glue and then painting it on. Haven't gotten fed up enough with leaks to try it, but it seems like it should work.

[Ryan Witt]

Hi Andrew! I remembered reading something about this in the FAQ (https://www.renehersecycles.com/tubeless-faq/) and there is a sentence there that implies your issue may be covered:

> In very rare cases, the sidewalls can leak even if you do everything right, because the rubber coating is just a hair too thin. These tires are the most supple (fastest when you run them with tubes), but they don’t work well tubeless. If the sidewalls leak even after you’ve done everything correctly, that is covered by our warranty.

I’ve had SBH replaced quickly in the past when there was a manufacturing tolerance issue, so maybe this is worth looking into.

BTW, is Bontrager sealant latex based? Googled a bit but couldn’t figure it out.

Also, same issue for both tires?

Cheers,

Ryan

[Steve Palincsar]

On 7/26/20 12:02 PM, Andrew G wrote:
> Thanks everyone. I've definitely cooled off, but I'm still disappointed in the experience. Also, forgot to add, I have the extralights.

I can't recall anyone asking or you specifying: were your Switchback
Hills the "TC" (tubeless compatible) models, or the earlier ones not
marked "TC"?

> I used Bontrager sealant (what my LBS offers), though people really seem to dig the Orange stuff.
> As for my setup, brand new tubeless compatible rims and tape. Again, I'm only having issues with the sidewalls and even the tread leaking. The best rim tape in the world won't affect this.
>
> I get that tubeless can be finicky, but I think this is a little ridiculous. That said, I'll keep trying and will update. And again, I appreciate the responses. Sorry I was a little hot (literally and figuratively) when I fired off my earlier post :)
>
> My eyes popped out when I saw someone had to use carpet adhesive :D
>

--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[Andrew G]

Just checked to be sure and yes, these are the TC versions, good question. 

Also, someone asked if it's both, another good question. Weirdly, one of them is doing ok after a few treatments, but the other is the one giving me fits. 

Will look into a warranty, but I bought them through a 3rd party online retailer, so we'll see. I promise I won't turn this thread into a personal correspondence with Jan Heine ... ;)

Regarding the latex base, what is the impact of that? Genuinely curious. 

Thanks again everyone, this is a very helpful group even though I came in super hot. 

[Eli Torgeson]

Steve, regarding the Carpet Adhesive, I think I got the idea from a Bob thread....Time to retire the tire ....

The original question had to do with both tire bulges and UV sidewall protection. I think it was Rich Freeman who brought up the adhesive.

I tried it, with some success (after three coats and some drying time) on the INSIDE of the thinnest sidewall tire I have ever used.

From the manufacturer: HENRY® 663 Outdoor Carpet Adhesive is a “best-in-class” latex adhesive for exterior installations of indoor/outdoor carpet.

The tent sealant sounds promising, in a sort of "why am I even doing this" sort of way. I guess I did it to say I had done it. I would rather use the parimotos as a supple go fast tire than mess with the adhesive again.

So, if your Hmmmmm suggested the adhesive idea was flawed, I feel comfortable saying that indeed it works. If, on the other hand, your Hmmmmm suggested it's a bit bonkers to go to such lengths, then we are in agreement.

Eli
In Albuquerque

[Ryan Witt]

> Regarding the latex base, what is the impact of that? Genuinely curious.

Latex seals small holes better and holds up in the wet. Glycol lasts a lot longer without coagulating but can tend to weep out of small holes and reopen in the wet. I’m guessing this is why latex tends to get recommended for supple tires.

Seems like the distribution of sizes of solids in the sealant can make a difference too. Many products use a synthetic solid (glitter, plastic particulates, etc.) that may tend to have a fairly uniform distribution of sizes. I’m guessing this is why the Panaracer Seal Smart uses ground walnut shell, which should have a more random distribution of particle sizes. Ideally, this would help block different size punctures by ensuring there are particles suited to rush into many different sized holes and catalyze latex coagulation.

Just got a bottle of the Panaracer stuff, so hopefully this theory holds up. :p

[andrew.k...@gmail.com]

Ah, thanks, good info. I definitely see glitter in my sealant remnants.

Currently have my wheel laying flat after another pump up and leak. Sitting on my patio reading and might have a beer later. I’m hoping I can just slowly let the sealant plug everything up and not have to deal with a return.

> On Jul 26, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Ryan Witt <onecrea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 

[Eli Torgeson]

Don't forget to give it the shaky shaky Stan's dance every so often. Most of us will use a soapy sponge to get a good layer of foam on the horizontal sidewall and start of tread. You can usually see your leak with that and direct your agitation of sealant to the offending area. Keep flipping it like a pancake every so often, soaping it up in between.

This is the one aspect of tubeless setup I now am ok with as I get super clean with all the suds in this covid era. (Sometimes I do it when I return from the hospital, or clean some other part of my bike. Somehow it is not as depressing as washing my hands for the umpteenth time just to be clean.)

Eli

[andrew.k...@gmail.com]

Update for anyone still interested in my tale of woe:

After a lot of monitoring and leaking and pumping yesterday, the tire only lost a few psi overnight. I was excited by this development.  However this morning, just to test, I pumped them back to 40 psi and a few new leaks started and the process has started over. 

I also watched this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQhWmRkczEc

It seems that even with a decent seal, these tires will still have issues down the road that will make them more trouble than they are worth. 

I want to be able to enjoy a ride without constantly worrying about pressure and leakage, especially when I’m out of service in the middle of nowhere (even with the right tools). 

I’m going to look into a refund and will go back to my WTB Horizons. Riding is supposed to be fun. If I’m having to put this much work into just keeping air in a tire, I’m gonna have a bad time. I can not recommend these tires. Maybe the regular casing is the way to go, but at this point I can’t be bothered. 

Thanks to everyone for all their help. This is a great group. 

On Jul 26, 2020, at 2:53 PM, 'Eli Torgeson' via 650b <65...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Don't forget to give it the shaky shaky Stan's dance every so often.  Most of us will use a soapy sponge to get a good layer of foam on the horizontal sidewall and start of tread.  You can usually see your leak with that and direct your agitation of sealant to the offending area.  Keep flipping it like a pancake every so often, soaping it up in between.

This is the one aspect of tubeless setup I now am ok with as I get super clean with all the suds in this covid era.  (Sometimes I do it when I return from the hospital, or clean some other part of my bike.  Somehow it is not as depressing as washing my hands for the umpteenth time just to be clean.)

Eli

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/wrwpQiZMHw0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/ac67c9c5-1e69-42fe-9237-466519eacd14o%40googlegroups.com.

[Zachary Lees]

I have been running the RH Hurricane Ridge tire in the extra light version for several months now and several hundred miles of dirt and gravel, a little single track, and some pavement. I have had no issues whatsoever. No weeping, no loss of pressure, no cuts, punctures, or flats. I have let them sit for a week or more and they have held air just fine. 

I can recommend these tires.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/119460FB-C6EE-434C-A509-C6CCBC4CF2F7%40gmail.com.

[Andrew G]

That’s great! They are a different tire though. Maybe it’s a QC issue, which would be hugely surprising for a premium Japanese product.
Maybe I’m just unlucky.

[Dan Vee]

I also had a switch back hill eject it’s self from my rim once while luckily going slow. (EL on a Blunt SS). It was quickly warranties by RH. I’m now running them on a pacenti brevet but decided to just leave it tubed at first and after 1200 miles (knock on wood) hAvent had a single flat or any of the problems that come with running them tubeless (seepage, pressure loss). So I’m gonna stick it out with tubes for a while. Sometimes it just ain’t worth it.

[Justin, Oakland]

Please ship me your garbage SBH tires. I will rehome then for you

[Andrew Gregory]

I honestly will, but not for free. 

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 3:09 PM Justin, Oakland <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please ship me your garbage SBH tires. I will rehome then for you

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/wrwpQiZMHw0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/cdf33282-3573-4a12-b299-6876b6826687o%40googlegroups.com.

[Dan Vee]

damn justin beat me to it :-)

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/CAJxAONi%3DBQzDh%2BvzwCyh3QpuDpq3kAr-Fj5_Zpu7RYk_rZtk0Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Justin, Oakland]

They're yours!

On Monday, July 27, 2020 at 7:52:38 PM UTC-7, Dan Vee wrote:

damn justin beat me to it :-)

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 4:20 PM Andrew Gregory <andrew....@gmail.com> wrote:

I honestly will, but not for free. 

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 3:09 PM Justin, Oakland <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please ship me your garbage SBH tires. I will rehome then for you

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/wrwpQiZMHw0/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 65...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/cdf33282-3573-4a12-b299-6876b6826687o%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 65...@googlegroups.com.

[Dan Vee]

😂😂

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/f7be07bf-0151-4581-bcf3-6e32736cf691o%40googlegroups.com.

[Andrew G]

Final update. I have no ax to grind, just want this info out there in case it helps someone make a decision in the future.

I have been monitoring tires and added some sealant yesterday. Rode about 10 miles yesterday and had minor leaks, but nothing crazy. Was beginning to think I could live with it, because the ride is pretty nice.

Just got home from a 1 mile round trip to the grocery store and this greeted me when I got home:
https://imgur.com/a/lOAPsB1

This doesn't even capture the carnage. There are leaks on the other sides and on the front as well. I have been swishing, shaking, and laying for over a week.

I don't want to switch to tubes, because I understand these have zero flat protection. Like I said, the ride is nice, so maaaybe I would try the regular casing, but feeling a little burned.

Currently on hold with P-Bike to discuss return.

[Jan Heine]

Andrew,

That looks like a casing that doesn't have quite enough rubber on it. It's a clear warranty case – not necessary to go through the shop where you bought it. Just submit a warranty inquiry on our web site, and we'll take care of it. Include a copy of the receipt, please.

In case you wonder why this can happen: We want our tires to be as supple as possible. So we put the minimum amount of rubber on the sidewalls. However, there is some variation in how much rubber gets onto the casing – these casings are coated in huge sheets, and it's inevitable that some areas get a little more than others. Rather than making all tires 15% heavier, we accept that <0.5% may not seal immediately when you run them tubeless. If you run those 'slightly-too-thin' tires with tubes, they are the most supple and fastest, but tubeless, you may get the problem shown in your photo. When this happens, we cover this under our warranty.

Out of curiosity, which sealant are you using? (This doesn't affect the warranty case, but since we have so few tires that leak like this, each is an important datapoint.)

Jan Heine

Rene Herse Cycles

[Andrew G]

Howdy, I really appreciate the response and I hope I'm not coming off as a nut. To answer your question your question, I use Bontrager TLR. 

I really was coming around to the ride quality and Performance Bike was actually willing to send me Orange Seal (at their insistence) and Panaracer Smart Seal (my insistence), so I'm going to give those a shot, starting with Panaracer. If those fail, I will submit an inquiry. 

I really appreciate you putting your name and company out there- that's a brave thing to do on the net. If the new sealant works, I will be sure to update this with a happy ending. 

Thanks again, everyone. 

[Jan Heine]

It's frustrating when a part doesn't work as it should, and we're very sorry when it happens. I'm glad Performance suggested using a sealant known to work well. The sealant may help, but if it doesn't, we'll cover you. As I said, it's a difficult trade-off that is inherent in high-performance tires. I wish we could test-install each tire to check it before it goes out, but that isn't practicable.

Jan Heine

Rene Herse Cycles

[Harry Watson]

Andrew. Just an aside - FWIW I have used SBH almost exclusively for five years or so (four pairs I think) both tubed and tubeless (always standard sidewall), and the tyres I had were NOT flat magnets. Unless you get a lot of thorns or similar where you are they should be totally fine with tubes, and tubeless I think I’ve had one puncture that didn’t seal up (big pinchflat from a big rock that required a boot - still using that tyre 12 months later). I regularly (basically every time I go out) ride at least some rocky firetrail, and I like to go fast down hills. The extra volume and lower pressure you can run compared to narrower tyres seems to mean they are more resistant to punctures. My riding companions will tell you I am someone rather prone to flat tyres too... Anyway just another datapoint to support Jan’s thesis that your tyre is an odd one out, and I’m glad it looks like there’ll be a happy ending. I reckon that tyre would be great tubed though... My next set will be extralights. Oh and I weigh about 70kg and ride a rawland stag, with pacenti brevet rims, and usually run between 25-30 psi depending on road surface.

[Andrew G]

Hey, thanks, they sound like they have been awesome for you. Regarding flats, I'm actually more concerned about road debris than any gravel/dirt flats :)

For the reasons you stated above, I have actually little worry of flats on gravel roads. I worry way more about nails,  glass, wires, etc. that I roll over on my local paved roads. 

Thanks again everyone for your help. This is a great group, sorry I brought so much negative energy.