'71 Raleigh-Carlton Professional Track 650B Conversion

[Paul Brodek]

First posted this on ibob last month, haven't had a vintage-ish 650b bike in-house for a while, so I haven't been poking around much here. s

Short story is I picked up a '71 Raleigh Pro Track frameset over the winter, planning to keep it as vintage as possible. Widest I could get with 700c tires was just under 27mm, and even that was very tight at the chainstays.

So for my first covid quarantine project I decided to try a 650b conversion. I used a set of Paul/Velocity Aerohead fixed/track wheels I had on hand. Narrowest 650b tires I had were an oooold pair of 32-584 Grand Bois Cypres, which were 32mm wide on the Aeroheads. That fit fine front/rear. Looks like 38s would fit OK in the front, but that'd be too tight at the chainstays. Pinch point are the chainstays, which aren't indented; plenty of room under the seatstay bridge and behind the chainstay bridge. If I ever decided to get the frame tweaked, I'd probably want to have the stays bumped to fit 38s, and maybe have the seatstay bridge drilled for a rear caliper? Not likely to go there, though.

Front brake reach increased to almost 64mm w/650b, first used a Superbe Pro long-reach caliper. Got the reach I needed by filing the shoe slots lower. Used a drill bit in an inappropriate manner to remove most of the metal, touched up with a file. Since I wanted to go mostly-Campy on this, I got a Campy NR long-reach caliper, and violated it the same way. Top of the shoes are just barely below the tire. I'd have to practically file the bottom of the slots out to get the shoes where I'd really like them to be.

Browsing here I saw mention of the Hutchinson Confreire des 650B being a bit wider than the Cypres, and I had a pair (I thought)...somewhere. Found one, but its mate hasn't turned up yet. Just tried it out, and the tire does measure about 1mm wider than the Cypres, 33mm on the Aeroheads, but I'm not sure that's meaningful. What I mean by that is the Hutch appears to have a thicker tread, at least on the side of the tire, and it wraps over the side of tire and sits above/proud of the casing. The casings on the Hutch and the Cypres both measure 32mm, it's the extra side side rubber on the Hutch that gives you the extra 1mm.

So I don't know if thicker rubber on the sidewall equates to more cushion. The Hutch was new/unused, so it may plump out a bit. I filled it up plenty to encourage some stretching.

If the casing doesn't widen much, I may opt for a pair of new Cypres ELs. 

Gearing right now is 42x16, around 67" w/32-584 tires.

Backyard pix with the Cypres with a Sony A7RII and mostly a vintage 105/2.5 Nikkor, and 105/2.8 Micro-Nikkor. Post in Lightroom.

Flickr album here, small pix attached:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/26383479@N04/albums/72157712064967518

Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Etan Heller]

The first thing that popped into my head was, "That looks like something PCB would build" (Bike Forums C&V user). Looking at your initials it looks like I was more accurate than I thought? Or just a coincidence?

Nice looking bike. Only thing I'd change is go to a polished-up Weinmann or MAFAC centerpull brake. A long reach MAFAC 2000 would reach your rim no problem, without modification, and would be a bit more "bling" than a polished up Racer or Raid, or Weinmann equivalent.

I started a public brake measurement database a few months ago. I measure vertically straight up and down from the center of the central mounting bolt to the max and min of the post slots (not diagonally to the center of the brake pad, as some do). See the full database here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ze6QFPgZFbBQmgM8ATWDE5JStRur-Q3-Mmr4hMtclRg/edit#gid=812153980

Manufacturer

Model

Model variation

Reach (mm, measured from center of pivot to min/max of post slot)

Reach (mm, measured from central mounting bolt to min/max of post slot)

MAFAC

2000

Long reach

Min: 30 Max: 50

Min: 53.5 Max: 68

 

[Etan Heller]

By the way, what handlebars are those?

[Paul Brodek]

Hi Etan, yes it is the same me. I haven't posted much on BF/C&V during my quarantine, need to get over there.

Thanks for the brake recommendations, and I'll definitely check out your database. Having both dimensions is especially helpful for hackers, since it clues us in on how much room we might be able to get by extending the slots.

I really, really wanted to use a Campy caliper on this, mainly because today when I conjure up an image of a vintage early-'70s in my mind, it's all-Campy. And when I was a young adult in the early-'70s and lusted after all-Campy bikes, the focal point of my lust was the calipers. I haven't had an all-Campy vintage build in-house for a long time now, I managed to recently put a couple together, and it's Campy calipers for both. I had to mount the rear caliper on '72 Hetchins reverso, a'la Beryl Burton, to get it to fit---totally worth it.

But I do care more about safety than aesthetics, so once I get back out on the road I'll decide whether to replace the Campy caliper on the Raleigh.

Keep in mind I don't even know at this point if I'll like the 650b conversion, so if I don't, and go back to 700c, then the Campy caliper definitely stays.

I originally built this as fully vintage as I could, didn't have suitable old wheels but had everything else. You can see that build in the album, with 700c wheels, narrower bars and a Campy non-aero brake lever. With only a front caliper, and not being an accomplished fixie skid-stopper, I didn't feel safe with the braking. And after using significantly wider road bars for the past 15yrs+, the narrow bars were really uncomfortable. So I'm using a more modern cockpit, Nitto B-177 48cm Noodle bars for comfort, and a 'cross interrupter lever for more secure braking. And flat pinned platform pedals, Xpedo Spry.

Just checked bb height, it's still up at 27.8cm/11" with 650b, so I don't expect any cornering issues.

So, do I scoot over to BF/C&V, or check out Mafac 2000 calipers on ebay, just for the heck of it? Gotta make a cuppa first...

Paul "PCB" Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA      

[Etan Heller]

Looks like domestic pickings are slim for MAFAC 2000s on eBay, but some reasonably priced ones in France. The hard part is trying to tell whether you're getting the short or long reach calipers as it's often not specified in the listing.

Not to denigrate the Superbe Pro brake on there. It's a beautiful brake.

[Jon Wheeler]

Thats a proper country fixed! Love it.  

[Ray Varella]

Have you considered using a drop bolt instead of filing your brake shoe slots?

Ray

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Ray Varella

IAABC Parrot Division

Supporting Member

[satanas]

^ That should definitely be enough to get pads on a standard reach NR/SR caliper to hit the rim without filing the arms, or if not within 1 or 2mm. Reducing the reach will also increase brake power noticeably; I did this on a frame that was meant to be built for Campag piccolo calipers, but wasn't.

I'd personally be worried about no rear brake + flat pedals, which wouldn't make me feel at all safe here in hilly Sydney.

Later,
Stephen

[Paul Brodek]

As to Ray V's question, I briefly considered a drop bolt, but decided not to for a few, not all logical/defensible, reasons.

1. Didn't have any long-bolt fronts on hand: those are rarer, so I'd need to scour the 'net/ebay/forums to find one. Often the ones you'll find are generic, so no "Campagnolo" or "Patent" engraving. If I used a shorter/rear one, I'd have to either drill the back of the fork crown to fit a recessed nut/bushing, or install the nut inside the steerer tube, which I've done on other bikes, but it's a pain in the neck, and I'm less thrilled with the front brake anchored by only the front of the crown, plus the inside of the tube is round, but the end of the brake nut is not, so there's not as much contact as I'd like.

2. Aesthetically, it's a visually more obvious kludge than using a longer caliper, even filing the slots. Can't really tell the slots are filed unless you're very sharp and intimately familiar, at a glance, with stock Campy Record sidepull slot lengths. Also, I find drop bolts generally kinda klunky, and not at all pretty. There's a visual "rightness" to how those Campy sidepulls look, to me, that drop bolts detract from.

3. It might entail more work if I decided to bail on 650b and go back to 700c. I could do that without changing the caliper, though, almost fer sure, I'd wanna use the shorter-reach Campy calper instead. But I could likely use the longer caliper, where I definitely couldn't with a drop bolt---not enough room for the tire.

And as for braking and safety, per Stephen's reply, I definitely would not want to chance a hilly, and/or challenging, and/or fastish group ride with a single brake. When I ride solo I can choose my route and do 20-40mi with less than 1,000' of climbing. If I'm thinking about using this on a group ride I'm generally looking at flat flat flat rides.

The flat pedal part hasn't been a problem for me, doesn't prevent me from doing some leg braking, would make it difficult to do skid-stops, but I didn't do those with foot retention, either.

The Raleigh would undoubtedly be a more versatile machine for me if it had a rear brake, but I'm feeling the urge to drill out the seatstay bridge for that. If I found a similar-era British path racer machine, that fit, with better tire clearances and dual brakes, I'd think hard about snagging that and selling the Raleigh. Anybody who's got an early-'70s Hetchins, Mercian, Holdsworth, Bob Jackson, etc, etc Path Racer in 59-61cm c-c can ring my bell anytime. There were a couple of nice resprays on ebay recently, a Hetchins and a Holdsworth, both in England, that maybe kinda fit the bill. But the Hetchins was complete and kinda pricey, and the Holdsworth disappeared before I could decide whether to act.

FWIW, a built-to-order modern Bob Jackson can be had pretty reasonably. I'm not sure if they're still working through the crisis, but a BoJack Vigorelli is a very nice, reasonable machine. As are the Mercian Vigorellis, pricier, but very nice.

Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Paul Brodek]

Oops, sorry, that should read: "...not feeling the urge..." to drill the seatstay bridge.

[satanas]

I wouldn't have any hesitation in ordering a custom Mercian to go with my 1950 ASC hub if I could afford one. They do beautiful work.

[Paul Brodek]

Just a heads-up, I ordered GP Cypres ELs yesterday from Grand Bois/I's Bicycle, should get word on shipping soon.

Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Paul Brodek]

The GB Cerf ELs got here via DHL in maybe 3 biz days from shipment. Width on the Velocity Synergy rims should be just around 33mm at riding pressure. Chainstay clearance is doable, and with dual wheel tugs the wheel ain't slipping, but getting the wheel back just a little more would be just a bit more comfy. Maybe need to track down a 41t ring. Brake reach is still kludgy/iffy. That would also drop the gear a little closer to comfy on the rollers.

I pronounce it rideable, but reserve the right to find a better front caliper solution, and dedicate the butchered Campy caliper for show.

Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Mark Bulgier]

Paul Brodek wrote:

The GB Cerf ELs got here via DHL in maybe 3 biz days from shipment. Width on the Velocity Synergy rims should be just around 33mm at riding pressure. 

Wife's Cerf tires measure 28 mm.  Are you sure you're not talking about Cyprès @ 33 mm?

Amazing how fast shipping from Japan can be, especially in these times.

Mark B

[Paul Brodek]

D'oh! D'oh!! D'oh!!! Yeah, Cypres, like it sez in the photo title. There ain't no Cerfs in 650b. The Cypres are labeled 32, I reckon they might be 32 on fairly narrow rims. They're around 33.5mm+ a bit on the Raleigh's Velocity Synergy rims, but I've got some extra air in there to encourage plumpness.

Got a line on a 41t 144bcd ring, a new TA on order from Peter White, which oughta move the wheel back a tad and get me a little more chainstay clearance.

Course that also means one less piece o' Campy on here....

Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Mark Bulgier]

Sorry, should have figgered that out -- you can even read the label on the tire if you view it full size

Campy did make a 41t in 144 BCD, but they're hard to come by in decent condition. Strangely, never in the Super Record style, only in Record, with the extra metal bits that're missing on the SR.  Ever since I saw Davis Phinney's pro team bike with a Record inner and a Super outer, I've thought that combo looks pretty cool.  I'm easily influenced I guess.

Mark B

[Paul Brodek]

So almost 6mos later, I just got in a neo-retro 650b wheelset for this puppy, from Earle Young. Vintage Campy Record/NR 36h high-flange hubs laced to Pacenti Brevet 650b rims. The hubs were road, so I tracked down track axles/nuts and swapped axles. Since the rear is threaded for a freewheel, I've got the 16t cog threaded on, and an English-thread bb lockring tightened down over that.

The Cypres EL 32s are about 1mm wider than on the previous wheels, so around 34.5mm. Clearance is still OK at the chainstays, as long as the wheel sits further back in the drops. Dang it'd be cool to dimple the stays and get 38s in there.

So a little more Campy, a little more retro.

I also swapped from the modern-ish Nitto up-jutting tig'd stem to a Technomic, just wanted a 7-stem on there. That causes problems for the bottle cage, the Minoura bar mount and the Technomic and the Paul Cross lever don't play well together. Maybe have to do downtube clamps...

Also found a Cane Creek dummy brake lever for the right/rear side, which, from the angle I'm looking from now, kinda looks like Dr. Zoidberg from Futurama.

The only ointment fly remaining is the front caliper. I don't _think_ the shoes will go flying off at the first opportunity, but it's a B-Class kludge at best.

Just realized the Technomic is a little longer, so I'll have to move the top tube protector tape wrap a bit further back.

I'm gonna try to actually ride it this weekend.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 12:10:52 AM UTC-4, Paul Brodek wrote:

First posted this on ibob last month, haven't had a vintage-ish 650b bike in-house for a while, so I haven't been poking around much here.

[snip]

[satanas]

@ Paul: If you can find one of these Blackburn cages somewhere it might solve your problem:

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=260c0b06-a9b5-4c09-9a01-3089f0c22fed&Enum=103

Of course there are many, many other cage or bottle carrying options, feed bags, etc, for instance:

https://bikepacking.com/index/add-cage-mounts-bike/

And why is somebody (who?) hanging off your brake cable?

Later,
Stephen

[Paul Brodek]

Thanks, Stephen. I reinstalled the Minoura mount late last night, tried all kinds of different cage/lever angles and cable runs, but it just was not working. Woke up this morning, and almost my first thought was: "Just move the lever over 10mm or so, dummy! It's a 48cm bar, you've got plenty of room up top." So I did, and it works fine now. Final Final Build.

I definitely spent a lot of time on that backpacking.com page during this ordeal. It even occurred to me that I could probably mount two Minoura bar mounts on opposite sides of the stem, and have two cages tucked behind the bars. But I did kinda want this one to look semi-normal. Despite late-'60s Austin Powers hanging on the brake housing. "Groovy, baby!"

My favorite option on the bikepacking page was the DMR hinged clamps, seemed like they'd hold tight, with minimum possible tube/paint damage. Basically two front der clamps on the down tube. But it looks like the only source is from the UK, with somewhat pricey int'l shipping fees for $6 worth of parts. Plus int'l shipping covid delays, etc, etc. Still might snag a couple of sets, though, maybe add something to the order to make the shipping more worthwhile.

https://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/dmr-hinged-clamp-65637.html

The King-modded hose clamp Universal Supports should also be secure, and do in a pinch, but they look kinda industrial, well, home plumbing anyway.

https://bikepacking.com/gear/accessories/king-cage-manything-cage/

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA