ASA first try

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Fail.

Printing a pretty simple and small rectangular part in my fully enclosed N2. The corners and sides curled upward forcing the previous layers up into the nozzle.

I had the bed set to 100c and the nozzle at 250c per the directions on the packaging.

After it cools down I’ll add helper discs and try again, but so far not good vs plain old abs.

[Ed Street]

Should not need helpers,  set that bed to 110C ;)  Also, a touch of gluestick would help.  What type of bed is this and what is the build plate?  250C is a bit on the hot side, based on what I have tested, and 240C is a better temperature for polymaker ASA.

[Ed Street]

Oh, SNAP,  I Forgot to mention a key critical issue.  If your first layer is WRONG and not perfect, you will have warping as well.  The first layer test will dial that in nicely and it should be one solid sheet that you can not pull apart.  That would be either z offset or first layer height/width.  

 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3519658  is what I use

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Ouch...

Looks worse than I first thought. It seems the thermal tube snapped. I doubt it was all that much from the crash/ More likely I suspect the tube was just really old. This machine has done more than 10 years of constant printing. I just ordered a replacement tube; $50.

Regardless... I used Aquanet. Always worked fine for ABS for more than 12 years. If ASA needs more stick than that I'd say it shrinks more than ABS not less. So I'm on hold with this until after I get the replacement part. I'm not too hopeful about this stuff. The part that had printed looked a lot more like HIPS than it did ABS.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

First layer was perfect.

[Ed Street]

Aquanet / gluestick,  same results. :)  

[Sophie]

Dang, that doesnt sound too positive...

I'm not gonna go and give you some eggs to suck - you been in the game way too long for that... but I'll share my bedslinger ways that work for me, in case it triggers anything for you.

I actually do go hot (compared to Ed), 250degsC, and interestingly my bed is down at 90. Now I do have a bedslinger, but my speed is way down low at 30mm/s, and my first 10 layers are snail speed at 15mm/s. For any sharp corners, I use helper discs. And as I'm in the UK with no easy access to Aquanet, I use elmers purple glue (but yea they essentially do the same thing). And lastly, enclosed, keeping the ambient temperature cosy and more importantly consistent, with zero drafts. (I dont have a probe in the enclosure at the moment so I can't say what it gets to exactly, but its cosy).
Now I'm not saying these are dialed in to be efficient or will work for anyone else, it just works for me. 

But I mean...I'm kinda bummed that it didn't work for you, as you well know, it takes a few attempts to dial everything in specific to your equipment, and it doesnt really matter what me or Ed do, you'll have your own settings and ways that do it for you, but its still fun to share experiences.

And ASA, while it has great properties to contend with ABS, it is not ABS and shouldnt be treated as such.

Fingers crossed for you once you get that tube replaced. (PS - I don't think it looks like ABS at all, more like Nylon to me, but without the ductility, but it has that kind of lubricated feel)

[Ken Davidson]

Aquanet works well for me with ASA. I'm running both Sunlu and Polymaker at 250°/100°.

One problem I have had several times was overextrusion. I was getting all kinds of messy blobs, especially on the final layer. I reduced the extrusion multiplier to 0.92 and the finish looked great.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "3D Printing Tips and Tricks" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 3d-printing-tips--...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/aeb02d74-3d4f-4f4f-82b3-5350cbe2a712n%40googlegroups.com.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Sorry if this changes the subject a bit….

As I tear down the Raise3d N2 carriage and extruder I’m seeing that the tube actually must have cracked and leaked during previous print jobs. The tube gets real weak at the heat break and that’s where the tube failed and made a mess. I may need to order a new hot block and a new heater! These are not off the shelf parts btw. It’s not an open source machine. Not the fault of the ASA ( if it really is ASA… I think it’s really HIPS which is craptastic.)

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

So rather than wait I tore down the second extruder that I never use(for a bunch of reasons) and took the old thermal tube from it. I then rebuilt the left side extruder. Not fun, but I got it to work and printed again this time with helpers on the ends. The part I printed is a cutting template for a mute on a bass guitar. The small slots have tight tolerances since a razor goes through them to cut neoprene. It printed fine this time. The material does not feel like ABS, kind of in between ABS and HIPS. I will be doing a bunch more as well as larger stuff to see if I get delamination. I also ordered another spool and this time I'm sure it's Polymer. This first spool, Im not too sure who it's from.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

That was supposed to be Polymaker! Danged auto correct!

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

I've printed a bunch of small parts and so far all I see is the same issue I saw with HIPS and ABS. Pull up on corners of rectilinear parts. Helper disks solve it, but thats not new. I'll try the other spool in the next few days, but so far ASA is simply ABS but with some outdoor weather resistance. What I do NOT see are any great advances due to newer formulations. As far as I can see it's just like ABS we've had for more than twelve years. Next I'll try a tall part to see if still get delimitation days after the part is completed.

[markni...@gmail.com]

Andy, if you don't mind, could you provide a few more details about your test methodology.

From what little I know about the Raise3D N2, it looks like a fully enclosed, nearly commercial grade printer.

Questions are: what bed temp are you using? Are you measuring the enclosure envelope temp? If so, what does it read? Are you attempting to warm the envelope by more than just the build plate?

The reason for the last question is, if I recall correctly, I picked up the hair dryer envelope heating trick from something you wrote, maybe a good while ago.

Thanks

[Sophie]

I just find it bizarre that ABS is perfectly fine, and ASA is giving hassle.....would expect it to be the other way round in my experience. 

Also...side note...Google groups is frustrating me again with it's lack of Android features...and also not showing messages sent via email...hopefully Andy received it anyway even if it didn't make it here....

[Ed Street]

Perhaps it's the printer and/or hot-end and/or build plate and/or z offset.  I did some testing and put a 0.2mm nozzle on my bambu. I only had minor warps over the past year after using dozens and dozens of spools of ABS and ASA.  Next to no warping on my voron.  With the 0.2mm nozzle, I got mad amounts of warping on the Bambu, as I was expecting.  I just tried a fast print on my voron of a cube and no warping at all.

Perhaps it's also the number of walls being used. After all, we have heard next to nothing about the print parameters. Oh, and you can also get PLA and PETG to do mad amounts of warping on a build plate.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Seems to me from the three above posts that you guys are assuming that the prints came out poorly. I never said that. So let me be more explicit. The ASA prints came out fine. However, they exhibited all the exact same qualities of ABS and HIPS. The qualities that 

Lead me to always reject these materials. I see no improvement over ABS in terms of shrinkage or outgassing. The shrinkage I found was the lift in corners that you can see when the part is completed and you examine the bottoms. On rectilinear shapes the corners will pull up just enough to make the bottoms curved which for most commercial use cases is out of tolerance. These were SMALL parts. Low Z height… IOWs easy prints.

Nozzle temp was 230c bed temp was 90c. Yah I could have made the bed hotter and I did use helper disks on one print which mostly held the corners down. But that’s exactly what I would have done for ABS… as I have been doing for more than a decade!,

The original Raise3d N2 is an optimal setup for ABS. It has thousands of hours of printing abs since I got it a long time ago… I think it was 2015.
Per what I see in the specs for ASA, its improvement over ABS is in its durability for outdoor use. All I see says nothing about improvements over shrinkage… and it still out gasses… real bad.

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Sophie - I CONSTANTLY Have the same problem with this Google Group (the ONLY Group that I am actively on). I used to ONLY interact with this group via the Email reflections. But, starting a while ago - maybe a Year ago or more - I started to see that I was missing replies from the group when getting the email reflections. Now it's Truly Rampant! I literally miss 50% of all replies to email, or possibly MORE than 50%!!! And, I was originally thinking it was ME - and my CRAPPY email address (it's a VERY OLD one I am still using) - but, since you are ALSO Having the problems - that Confirms to me that it's a Google issue and NOT an issue with my email. 

It would be cool if SOMEONE here had a Direct connection with someone at Google - with whom they could directly connect and kinda Bitch a little about this problem...

-K

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

After getting optimal small prints using this first spool of gray ASA it was time to move to the real test; a tall, larger object. In my years of printing as a service to Engineering firms, artists manufacturers, entrepreneurs and makers of all kinds I have learned a slew of tricks to get ABS to behave and not shrink too much. Tricks such as helper discs, avoiding straight lines in the tool paths, temps, no downward cooling, slow cool downs, gyroid infill, etc...

I applied all these tricks on an object that has zero straight line tool paths in X/Y. I selected an object I posted myself on Thingiverse. A scan of a skull sculpture:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3928314

A 19 hour print in my Raise3D, a fully enclosed machine optimized for ABS and other materials which require heat soaking. I picked this object based on previous experiences with ABS which has driven me and my partner on the podcast to encourage folks away from ABS. Hence our ABS Rant.

The initial resulting print was optimal. The ASA has the same feel and luster as quality ABS. The layer lines were smooth and clean and fusion was obviously optimal at my print temp of 240. The result was so good I was looking forward to posting that ASA indeed was an excellent alternative to ABS...

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

So... if you were looking real carefully at that previous pic... by the eye... you would see a hint of what was to come. Over time I got the usual craptastic results I have always found happening with ABS... DELAMINATION.

Whitney and I will stand by what we stated regarding ABS and now ASA on our podcast.

In the meantime I will glad to try printing this again using any advice from those here who feel I did something wrong and this result was my fault.

[Ed Street]

Can I see a photo of the very bottom?

[markni...@gmail.com]

Andy, you said a couple of times you feel your Raise3D is optimized for ABS.

I'm sure this is true for relatively low height objects, whose top is less than an inch or so from the heated build plate.

But for taller parts, you really do need the interior of the build envelope to be at a higher temperature.

Ed gets good reuslts with an envelope temp. of 60C. To achieve this he uses a bed temp of 110C to 115C.

In the past I've been afraid to use a bed temp this high for fear of de-magnetizing my magnetic bed.

But Wham Bam and other makers, supply beds with improved magnets that don't demagnetized until over 300C

Since the skull model you used is available on Thingiverse, perhaps we could persuade Ed, or someone else, that can get to 60C enclosure temp to repeat your print under those conditions to see if they experience the same delamination at the higher envelope temp.

Please understand, I'm not trying to promote or extend a controversy, I would just like to see folks that want or need to print ABS or ASA do so with good results.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

So I posted above about how the thermal tube snapped. My fix was to remove the right side extruder parts and use the thermal tube in the left side. Raise3d fw will not work unless it gets temp data from both left and right side thermocouples. As such I left the right side extruders thermocouple attached but secured to the side. Serendipitously this also gave me a rough temp estimate at the extruder carriage, but fully exposed to the upper chamber temp. It averaged from 60-70c. So my heated containment was fine. That’s not the issue. Also, the print completed fine without any lift or areas creeping upward. It did not delaminate until hours after it had cooled down.

I do have another spool of ASA from what I know is Polymaker. I’ll be trying that next. However, so far I see absolutely nothing that tells me that Asa is any better then abs.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Andy - am sorry to see just HOW Badly that Skull turned out - since, the front of it didn't look TOO bad - but, Delamination in the rear is Way bad. This looks VERY Similar to my Dragon leg pic I posted here in the forum - in regards to your ABS rant. Now, in my case - it will FULLY Expected - since my "SuperCupCake" is NOT An enclosed printer - and thus NO Chamber heating.

If this was an ABS print - I personally would keep the print - heal up the really bad Delaminations using liquid plastic of the same color - then Acetone smooth the whole object. But, I suspect that with ASA - Acetone smoothing and melting of the ASA plastic in a jar with Acetone is simply NOT an option. 

What I see that I find interesting - although I think it makes sense - the back of skull is largely a Smooth surface - where as the front is NOT! And, I think it's all the details in the front that are allowing it to print without delaminating. 

I TOO would like to see the very Bottom of the skull - per the suggestion by Mr. Street. 

AS I look at your skull and contemplate how to make a successful print - some thoughts come to mind. I would also like to see a screenshot of the Slice - within the Slicer - around the point where you get some of the most exxagerated Delamination. I know when I was last at VisionMiner - when we were printing some of the tougher Hi-Temp materials like Ultem & PEEK - Mr. Ukranian was actually using an Infill pattern that's an Interesting one - since, from what I saw - I lessens the shrinking forces on the inside of the object. I Suspect that IS the same Infill option you're using (gyroid infill).

Now, just lately at VM - I printed TWO Different major Client projects - each print was over TWO Days of printing for each part - as they were BOTH Large parts. And, both parts came out AMAZING! In the one case, the customer was giving us a TEST to prove the capabilities of the VM printers. I did a successful print, once they had the part in their hands - the immediately pulled the trigger and bought the printer!

I know your Raise3D Printer is Designed to print materials like ABS. But, is their chamber simply enclosed and the Bed itself does the actual heating of the chamber? OR - perhaps - is there ANY Active chamber heating? I suspect the answer is NO - since I know the machine is a bit Older by now AND - some years ago - the StrataSys IP of a heated chamber was Still in effect - and co's were NOT doing Active chamber heating - to avoid a Lawsuit!

So, if it IS Actively heated chamber - can you let me know the Chamber temp? Also, what is the Bed temp?

Also, an important thought about your situation - did you let the chamber Heat Soak for a while Before you started the print process??? If not - that MAY be part of your problem. And, if there is NO Active Chamber heating - I would suggest you consider heating up the build plate and keeping printer closed - and heat up the whole unit for like 2 hours before you start printing. This MAY Potentially help you get better results. And, even though the VM printers have Active chamber heating - I will at times let the printer heat soak for an Hour or more before starting up a critical print job. 

Lastly, I had some further ideas - essentially Tricks - to help the skull. 

First, I'm curious - what was the Infill percent? The one idea is to lower infill percent even more. 

I also had another trick in mind. However, I first needed to DL your Skull and also install PS - which I just did. I sliced it with basic settings, and a 0.2 layer height - and I did notice a major issue with the bottom. Even at the 2.00mm layer height I noticed an issue with this separate island of the part printing - as noted by the Red arrow:

And, if I go down to an even lower print layer - at 0.6mm you can see the issue with printing of Islands gets worse - essentially requiring supports if it is to print correctly:

So - one major suggestion is to chop the bottom of the skull by 2.0mm! And, I would also suggest you chop it - and the re-upload the chopped version to TV - so others won't have the same issue.

For now, I simply dropped the skull into the build plate by 2mm. That being said - the core of my idea is to print the skull Hollow! You can see in this screenshot - I have sliced it to print hollow - by setting Bottom layers AND the Infill to Zero - and forcing perimeters to 3 lines. But, you will already see an issue - those blue lines it's attempting to print. I believe those lines are due to potentially inverted polygons - since things like this can happen due to it being a Scanned object:

Here's my thought process behind the idea of printing it hollow. 

I believe that the larger the diameter of a cross section of an ABS printed part - the worse the problem gets. Now, part of this is really a Guess-timate! But, I think that the quicker a layer prints - the less potential for Delamination. So, to solve this issue and implement my idea - printing the object hollow may work! It's something I may have considered for my Dragon Legs - except - it was NOT an option - since the Legs for the 9 foot Dragon NEEDED to be Solid since it needed to truly hold the weight of the body!

So, in regards to the skull - it could work to print it hollow. However, purely doing that - the print WILL fail - if we don't have some supports. So, I did implement Organic supports, as you will see here. But - SADLY - I did NOT get what I expected - and maybe someone else here can make a suggestion. Issue is - the top of the skull will need supports on the INSIDE - but, it is NOT doing it. Now, I understand Why - but, solution is a tad trickier. If I were to do this right - I would bring the Skull into 3DS Max. Chop off the bottom 2mm of the object. That would then make the object truly hollow - then I would apply a Modifier that would for all the walls of the skull to be like 0.6 or 0.8mm thick. Then, in that case, the actual STL of the skull would have an outer and an inner surface - then my trick of supports WILL be generated on the inside of the skull.

As it currently stands - you can see it IS trying to print the skull hollow & is ONLY putting supports on the outside of the model:

Maybe its time I boot up Max and Rectify some of the issues with the Skull...

-Kurt

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Andy - that's VERY Interesting news - to hear that the delamination occurred HOURS after the part completed printing - when it was cooling down. 

Did you have it cool down Outside of the printer? OR, after it was done printing - did the whole printer cool down - and the part was cooling down Inside the printer? I only ask - since I'm wondering if it was a gradual cooling (done inside the printer) - or cooling quicker by removing it from the printer. 

-K

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

We have ALWAYS seen the delamination long after printing. In one case it happened weeks later. The infill was gyroid, I.e. all curves, no straight lines. Enclosure temp was fine. No visible curling or lifting during the print at all which means the heat soak was ok.

[Ed Street]

 Thanks for posting the bottom layer. From what I see, the first layer appears to be fine. As soon as I saw the photos of the print, my voron spoke to me and said, "My precious, I wantz!" 

Lamination usually occurs due to the fan speed (often too high) and the CHAMBER (NOT BED BUT INSIDE AMBIENT) temperature being too low. Recall that the optional chamber temp for ABS and ASA is 65C. Commercial printers and active printers will dump 60C-65C continuously into the chamber for this very reason. For printers that use passive chamber heating, you must take active steps to maintain the temperature. Insulation, higher bed temps, bed fans, etc, all help greatly.  Also, someone mentioned diamagnetic temp, around 300-350C, and frequently used at the forge to heat treat metals.   Carbon becomes nonmagnetic at the crucial temperature of around 600C; for stepper motors, that is lower, and as long as it's not over 100C, that's not going to happen.  Stepper motors are often not over the bed as well. So 110C bed temps should be fine.  I know for vorons, we use thermal fuses, and you can get 115C / 125C and 135C fuses. I have a 135C fuse on mine.  I think most may have 125C fuses.

For a somewhat thin part, we will use the BED TEMPERATURE in place of chamber temperature because the bed temp is hotter and layers bond better and easier.  As you get higher up, inches, that bed temperature falls off in favor of chamber temperature.  What is simply happening is thermal shock; a hot plastic hits a cold part and shrinks faster than it should; the best solution is to warm up the coldest part to reduce the shock; less shock = more adhesion. The bonding strength MUST be GREATER than the tensile strength.

This is polymaker ASA teal.  The final print will be something like 1.3 pounds.  

I went with:

• 3 walls, (5-6 yield more strength and helps with curling)
• 0.2mm layer height, 
• triangle infill (yields the best overall strength for prints)
• I think I used 20% infill.  
• I also have overhangs and bridges tuned on my voron (supercritical or abs) but some other things are not tuned fully.  

Here is my second layer.

Back to ambient temperature. My chamber is currently at 61.52C. The part temperature is 71.8C, which is good and above optimal. We will take various samples during the print and see how they look. This is around 1" on the print, and we are already seeing the temperature starting to decrease.

I, too, have noted the first layer issue with the model and corrected that in my print.

One part that I do see that could be the issue is overhangs and bridges; while they may be turned for PLA/PETG, they appear to not be tuned for ABS/ASA.  Do this, load up the preview, and turn off ALL line types except bridges and internal bridges, and you will see the following image or something like this.  

Comparing this with the crack lines, there seems to be a direct correlation between internal bridges and the cracks that happened over time.  It also does not help that many slicers do not handle bridges correctly and fully detect them.  There is some crack on the front of the skull on the eye socket, and if you look closely, that is exactly where one of the bridges occurs.  Also, on the back, there is a bridge on the eye socket and 2 parallel sections on the back, which led to the cracking.

For cooling, I think ABS/ASA likes cooling for the static pressure and not the cooling it provides, so some fan speed is good, but you can use too much. You can also test it without cooling and with changes like 10%, 20%, 30% and compare the results.  For PLA it needs the fan for the cooling effect

I fully believe that for this printer in question from the OP, using overhang tests and bridge tests should show some substantial results. Fine-tuning overhang speeds along with chamber temps (closer to 65C, the better) and tuning cooling fan speed should fix that problem. Using vase mode on some prints will very quickly show problems that need to be tuned as well.

I hope this helps. I will follow up with the finished print to show and keep it around the house and show that later.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

I forgot to mention I always drop this object in Z a few mms to get a nice flat bottom. The bottom fill is concentric not linear. The object never exhibited ANY shrinkage at all during printing… only hours afterward.

Fan speed? What fan speed? The downward fan for hips and abs and Asa is zero. Some folks over the years have advocated for having a real low downward fan and you’ll get better quality. I never bothered.

Regarding your comments about the overhangs… imo and ime the more complex shapes in the front of the skull help with the fusion and are less likely to delaminate. The smoother back more so, The delamination is from shrinkage not from the printer not printing optimally. It’s shrinking across the entire height of the object in all three axes. It delaminates at the weakest points.

Btw… you’re using infill with lots of straight lines. More straight lines, more shrinkage.

ABS and its related materials are designed for injection molding. As such shrinkage is essential for removal from the mold. It’s NEVER been an optimal material for fdm and it never will. All the things someone has to do to mitigate the problems caused by shrinkage are not worth any perceived advantages.

[Ed Street]

Yes, the drop in Z was given with the photo of the bottom print.  I did notice the curvature, which is fine.

If the print cracks post-printing, then the layer adhesion is subpar. I have also seen PLA and PETG (and others) crack like this; this problem is not limited to ABS or ASA.

Yes, the infill is straight lines; the triangles form a star mesh, giving it superior strength. A strength testing meter yields the highest strength of all infills; the gyroid is lower.  However, that is not the print problem; it is a simple matter of layer adhesion being subpar.

PLA also got its start as an injection molding.

[Ed Street]

I pulled the specs on the N2 printer, and I did not see any active chamber heaters or anything about listing the chamber temperature. The display only listed bed and nozzle temps. While an enclosure is needed, it is simply not enough; you need more control over the ambient temperatures inside the printer.  I would suggest adding a temperature sensor to read the chamber temperature.  You will find that the temperature inside is like 35-40C, if that.

Here are some updates on the chamber temperature of my print. I opened the door to take some temperature readings of the part. We are at 75%, around 4" off the build plate. The reading was the top of the print, which is holding steady at 65C, which is a good optional temperature.  Think of it as an hourglass shape with temperature.  If the ambient drops too much, you lose adhesion on the layers, which causes delamination.

I also did not add any support structures to the print. Some of it needs to be done in the cheekbone area on both sides.  from the slicer, we can see air printing, and we do have some issues there.  

From the slicer.

I also pulled up the IOT listing or this print; I actively ran several data loggers on the printers.  The VOC listing is from a sensor outside the printer, and this graph shows the bed temp, chamber temp, and VOC index levels in the room.

 

• The bottom line is the ambient chamber temperature, which has been steady at 60C for the entire print—that is until I opened the door, and it dropped to 45C!  You can see the sharp drop and the climb back up.
• The middle line is the bed temperature, which is 110C.  When I opened the door, I saw a change in the bed temperature, which was caught and actively corrected.
• The top line is the VOC index and air quality. 100-200 is good, and 200 and above require HEPA filters and more active steps to clean the air.  The bump at the start was the sensor adjusting.  When I opened the room door, VOC did some crazy things, too.  I let out hot air, which dropped the humidity in the room, causing the VOC index to change.  Once the humidity in the room readjusted, the VOC index shot up, as it should. I had the door opened.

After checking around with some other voron owners knowledgeable in this area, they also say the chamber temp is too low, and also nozzle temp could be too low as well.  An enclosure is *NOT* enough; you must also maintain and monitor chamber temperatures.

[Ed Street]

Could you share your shipping address?  I will gladly send you this skull when it is finished printing and cooled down.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

“An enclosure is not enough”

EXACTLY!

That’s what I’ve been trying to get through!

As I stated a long time ago, the SSys machines make abs output that’s still superior. Why? The patented enclosures.

ABS/HIPS and now ASA all require an oven! The whole concept of the heated enclosure adds cost, complexity and as we are now seeing in the suit against Bambu with their latest machine that has an oven like enclosure is the impetuous behind SSys going after them. How many 3d printers are on the mkt with enclosures that serve as ovens? 

All for what? An abs luster? Vapor polishing? It used to be clean undersides, but now we can easily and cheaply do full contact support. As such why bother???

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

No thanks. I have enough plastic crap lying around. What I would like to see is a photograph taken a few days after printing.

On Monday, August 12, 2024 at 2:17:24 AM UTC-7 black...@gmail.com wrote:

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

I will be printing it again, but next with a different company. Sometimes it’s the formulation or a specific element used in coloring.

But to state that the delaminating layers was due to it not being hot enough is simply not the case . The internal heat was more than enough to keep the material soft from top to bottom and fusion was optimal.

On Monday, August 12, 2024 at 2:17:24 AM UTC-7 black...@gmail.com wrote:

[Ed Street]

What was your chamber temps for that print?  Also what is the bed temperature??

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

I believe this is like the third time I’m posting this. The bed was 95c the chamber ranged up and down from 60c to 70 at the X/y carriage thanks to the right side extruders’still attached thermocouple. Opening the door to the chamber to measure the temp imo is not a good practice. The first print was set at 245c.

I’m trying the skull again a bit hotter per the Polymaker spec. 250c and 95c for the nozzle and bed respectively. This spool is black unfortunately since black usually has elements in it to make it black. Ideally this would be best with natural or no coloring.
And it’s hard to see a black skull in the dark on Halloween.

The delamination I have shown is not at all a new experience! This is exactly par for the course after more than a decade with this stuff as well as other machines besides the N2. This what you get when you use a material that requires a heat soak.

I have never… not once… ever… seen PETG or pla delaminate like this! Nor any form of nylon, tpu or pc which btw does need a heat soak.

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

The VM machines are fully enclosed and actively chamber heated - so, they ARE Indeed like an Oven. But, in their case - it's REALLY about Hi-Temp materials like Ultem & PEEK and their composite versions. But, again - it's a Pro level machine - and I think you are really aiming your comment at the Hobby level 3DP market. Honestly, if I had a hobby level machine that could Seriously do ABS - I would love it - as I still prefer ABS filament for the Acetone smoothing & welding capabilities of ABS parts. But, if I were to Seriously be doing ABS printing on my own - I would Surely get myself a proper HEPA filter/BOFA unit...

-K

[markni...@gmail.com]

I think there is a basic split between folks that like the properties of ABS, and those that simply think it's not worth the trouble.

I think there are very fine people on both sides, very fine people.

[Niels Wullems]

Attached is a zip with 6 photos taken from the skull I printed today.

It's in FilamentOne Natural ASA. 

It's printed on my Voron Trident 300 with a Dragon HF and an LDO PEI sheet.

I didn't scrub the PEI sheet before this print but still struggled to get some of the material off. 

The chamber was a steady 60°C during printing.

I did the slicing in Orca slicer with 3walls, 3 bottom/top, 15% line infill

Temperatures:   235°C on the nozzle, 110° on the bed and the stealthburner at 80% cooling

I've found that the DragonHF really needs a lower temp setting than most hotends.

I will keep an eye on the skull the coming days if it will start splitting.

Op maandag 12 augustus 2024 om 21:14:47 UTC+2 schreef markni...@gmail.com:

[Ed Street]

Niels, those are some good results. You should be able to vapor smoothly and easily to a glass-like finish.  

At 1 pound 5 oz, this is about half the size/weight of my largest abs print to date.  So far I have yet to see delamination happening with any of these prints.  

Any of the "HF" hot-ends will need a lower temp like that because of the larger volume I was using. Close to that fan speed, the default fan speed is 30, and it blips to 80% at most.  I have a rapido2 UHF :)

For hobby-level machines that can do ABS, look at the Bambu P1S.  See many new users printing abs with them with 

One thing that does stand out is the hot end itself. I wonder if some hot ends are more prone to this delamination than others.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

Yes... a really nice print... really nice luster from the material. For sure the producer of the material is a factor... Lets see how the Polymaker ASA comes out. Its printing away.

[markni...@gmail.com]

Okay, so that is an observation I've made as well.

From what I've seen the Bambu P1S and X1any model, plus the Creality K1 series, and the Flashforge Adventurer 5 all seem to print ABS way better out of the box than anything we had 9 to 10 years ago.

I suspect the reason why is a myriad of incremental improvements that occurred through iteration over time.

I never thought reformulating ABS to make it print easier would work, because if you lower the glass transition point, you remove the temperature tolerance aspect of ABS that makes ABS a desirable material.

If we keep looking, we will likely find or figure out many new techniques to make ABS easier to print.

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Niels - your print looks AMAZING!!!

From some of the pics - I see some fraying or issues with the bottom of the skulls. Was there issues? Was the bottom lifting up? OR, was it simply removing from build plate made things a little messy? I'm maybe I was just seeing some strands still attached - that were part of the supports?

I'm just DYING to try to print this on a Bambu - in ABS - but, go One Step Farther - and do Multi-colors - to highlight the special Details on the skull. Then, afterwards - Vapor smooth it with Acetone!

-K

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Ed - you refer to VApor Smoothing. But, Niels printed it in ASA - not in ABS. OR, can you Still do Acetone Vapor smoothing with ASA???

-K

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Fine Folks on Both Sides of the Equation is a Nice comment Mark!!!

[Ed Street]

>>>   Ed - you refer to VApor Smoothing. But, Niels printed it in ASA - not in ABS. OR, can you Still do Acetone Vapor smoothing with ASA???

YES, you can vapor smooth ASA.  Mileage will vary based on the volume of color used.

[markni...@gmail.com]

Kurt,

Really cool vapor smoother design from Thingiverse.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3497815

Probably smaller than you need.

I understand if you put you print in the freezer first, the vapor condenses out even better.

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

OMG Mark - I was looking at that TV link - and saw this comment - " Acetone vapor is highly flammable, use this project at your own risk ... " - as it made me Laugh! 

I'm sure folks Here MUST Remember when I did a CRAZY Ass Acetone Vapor Smoothing setup - when I was at SD3D back in 2019. I literally used a Hot Plate. Then, I bought a Metal Teapot from Target. It had a plastic gadgetry for the opening of the spout. I figured that plastic may melt. So - I ripped it off. Then, deal was - heat up Hot Plate - then when its NICE and HOT - I open teapot - pour in about 4oz. of Acetone - put the teapot lid back on (its also metal) - then put it on the hot plate. I would almost Immediately hear the acetone bubbling up - and then I put my ABS parts over the teapot spot - and did a FAST and Dangerous and HOT Acetone Vapor treatment! And - HELL YEah - I had GREAT Success doing that!!! But, will admit - Ouch - I must admit that day - I breathed in TOO Much Acetone Vapor. Which as my old Essentium Mgr used to say - that's a "No Bueno"!!!!

But, will admit - the Rig does look kinda interesting. I was actually looking to take an old VM printer - which was Gutted - as it was an older BETA version - and use that WHOLE Frame to build a REALLY BIG Acetone Vapor Smoothing Rig!  However, that Aint gonna happen now...

-K

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Thanks for that Info Ed - I may have to try that out one of these days...

-K

[Niels Wullems]

Thanks guys.

The fraying is there but that's because I was lazy and didn't clean it up all that well. I also didn't check the preview all that well so there were some supports there. I should have placed the model a bit lower to remove the necessity.

I personally don't do vapor smoothing. Mainly because it's something I haven't tried yet. But ASA should also react like ABS.

Op ma 12 aug 2024 23:47 schreef Kurt The 3D Printer GUY! <vr...@optonline.net>:

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "3D Printing Tips and Tricks" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/3d-printing-tips--tricks/Qmb8zqSZTNQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 3d-printing-tips--...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/0d92a7f5-9bb4-4162-9cb1-6c3eebd13eddn%40googlegroups.com.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

This is right out of the N2. Hopefully it will not crack.

[Ed Street]

I still see layer issues on the back of the skull, which looks uniform as well. I am not sure if that is what causes the cracks; if it is, then that may be something of a Z issue. This does appear to be better than the other skull. Fingers crossed.

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

IMO there are no "layer issues". The lines are accentuated by the black shininess of the material. The previous print looked this good as well right after printing. Lets see what happens. My gut tells me this material will perform better than the free spool of gray.

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Hey Andy - the Skull print looks Awesome! If I was located closer to you - I would grab the scraps and support structures from you. I'm dying to try melting ASA in a jar with Acetone - to see if that can ALSO Turn into Liquid plastic!!!

Needless to say - I am Always on the search for Scrap ABS (and maybe now ASA) for my Liquid Plastic Abstract creations...

-K

[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

No cracks. So my first impressions of that first spool of Gray "ASA" that was sent to us (assuming you read from the OP) were correct. The gray stuff looked more like HIPS than ABS as such the formulation must be suboptimal. As I hoped the Polymaker stuff seems to be OK.
So no pulling up, no cracks, nice ABS-like luster, smooth feel to the touch. OK... good stuff!

[Ed Street]

That's good to hear. So, let's assume the roll was indeed HIPS and not ASA. HIPS is prone to cracking if wet, so was the filament put in a dryer at 70C for 8 hours? I have even heard 80C for 24 hours.

[Ed Street]

I'm checking in. So far, there have been no warps, cracks, or other issues with the print. I have been checking it daily for any changes.  As with the large prints I have out I have yet to hear any problems with them as well.

[Kurt The 3D Printer GUY!]

Cool. That's good news!

[Sophie]

Good news from Ed, and no more news from Andy seems to be good news! 

ASA prevails! (Which we knew it did anyway - just glad Andy found some success) ;)

[Ed Street]

Yes, indeed, good news.  Another ten-day checking with no warps, cracks, or the like.  Perhaps Andy will also check in with his print to share how it is doing.

[Niels Wullems]

My skull is also still the same as when I printed it.
No cracks nor deformations.

Op zaterdag 31 augustus 2024 om 21:13:15 UTC+2 schreef Ed Street: