bambu carbon

[James Fackert]

just got our kickstarter bambu  X1 carbon, kick started at the last second...

Most remarkably easy setup and first print, incredible design and packaging,  excellent instructions and software.

So far all the features have been effectively implemented. It checks every box in my wish list, at a price that is game changing.

Auto nozzle touch levelling and extrusion rate optimization and filament changing are for real.

[Kurt at VRFX]

AWESOME!

But - what's up with the Epic Fail on your part? Fail to Show some pics - 1st print - and just an overall pic of the printer! I for one am DROOLING - and Bummed I didn't get in on it - although, for good reason - didn't have a job at that moment in time...

-K

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[jmpr...@gmail.com]

Had mine since the beginning of August. I'm happy with it. For the price, speed, and just working out of the box it's hard to beat. Being a kickstarter they are still working some things out but really my biggest frustration is dealing with a slicer that is a variant of Prusaslicer (too many things I can't do compared to S3D because the slicer knows better than me).

Some photos (all models my own)

[haxa...@gmail.com]

The speed is unlike any other printer, and it doesn't seem to effect the quality at all. The model below was printed at 0.04mm layer height and it only took 1h20. After it got half way I set it to ludicrous mode (500mm/s) and the quality was still AMAZING. The legs were at .15mm height on adaptive height and the arms and head were at .04 and .06. I've tried a few prints on .01 height and it looks better than an SLA printer (and is 10x faster).   Honestly this printer is a GAME changer. I highly recommend it to everyone who wants a good quality and fast printer. I'll update in a few months as I'm interested in the longevity of the printer and it's parts 

[haxa...@gmail.com]

[Kurt at VRFX]

Wow - Epic print pics! But, I bet the supports were a bit of a Bitch to remove! What material? I suspect its NOT ABS - otherwise - I think it would be cool to lightly Acetone Vapor Smooth that print!

Also, I really loved your feedback about the printer - now I am TRULY Drooling! I wonder if the printer can be purchased online now, assuming the KS campaign has been fully fulfilled! Cause, if so - I'd love to get my hands on one. I may get my old job back, and, if so - I may suggest they buy one!

-K

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[James Fackert]

I think kickstarters are fulfilled.

Price on Bambu web page is $999 plus $499 for the 4 filament feeder.

For a self leveling self feed optimizing high temp capable fully enclosed temp regulated enclosure web enabled video monitor able ap drive spaghetti sensing clog sensing quick change hot end equipped. printer this is a screaming good deal.

Game changing, IMHO.

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[Alan B]

Warning for Bambu printer owners - 

On today's Nero 3D Bambu Printer repair livestream he discovered that the Bambu printers don't detect overheating when the thermistor is not reading the temperature increase. It fails to notice that the hotend temperature is not increasing when power is applied to the heater. It fails to prevent the thermal runaway.

This is a safety issue in the firmware.

https://youtu.be/McqrXUUMopc Nero 3D Livestream (ongoing now)

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[Mark Steele]

Mine should be here next week. I'll keep an eye on it. I expect they will patch it by then. 

sent from my mobile device.

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[3D Printing Tips and Tricks]

I got my .4mm hotend today. WOW! This this has to be the smallest hotend there is right now. SUPER small! If I can figure a way to mount to the TC tool bracket and to an Orbiter I'll put them on the TC.

[Kurt at VRFX]

Wow Alan - that is SCARY As Hell - since, SOME Folks here have Seen the news in the past of printers catching fire and burning a house down. Or, even one simpler case - burning enough to cause $10K smoke Damage in a house - even though it didn't fully catch fire!

Folks Should Heed this Warning!

-K

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[James Fackert]

Well, first, it's not detecting overheating. if the thermistor fails, the printer has 🚫 idea of it's temp.

How many printers shut down when they see way out of range thermistor resistance? 

Does prusa?

Sounds like a software fix would be possible.

The best way to really fix this independent of software would be to add a thermal fuse or snap action limiter in series with heater that would cut off power to the heater if it exceeds limits. 

Fire prevention should not depend on software.

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[Alan B]

Further Update on the Bambu Thermal Runaway situation: https://youtu.be/6hS2dQX_RM4 Bambu is claiming (in a new blog post) it will shut down after 3 minutes. Perhaps they should document it better since this is not consistent with other manufacturer's practice which sets user expectations. The PTC heater Bambu uses reportedly limits temperatures to around 400-450C, so it won't melt but it will get very hot until the timer expires. This is enough to burn or carbonize many filaments.

Prusa and Klipper reportedly have firmware detection for this condition that operates more quickly. The code detects that the temperature is not changing at the expected rate and shuts down in about 20 seconds.

Bambu is stating they will change the firmware to improve this.

The info in this post is based on Nero 3D's update, linked above.

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[LukeH]

Thermal Runaway protection is baked into all of the open source firmwares by default, and should be in all closed source firmwares as a minimum spec.

In addition, the heater on a hot end should be sized correctly so that while it can get to its maximum design temperature in a reasonable timeframe, if left in an uncontrolled state it won’t be able to get much hotter (it will heat so slowly beyond it maximum temperature that heat losses will keep it in a reasonable bandwidth). This is why kit printers and assembled units rarely come with heaters that are bigger than 40W.

[Alan B]

Many of the newer hotend designs (like the E3D Revo) use PTC heaters that have a max temperature they will inherently reach for some built-in inherent safety, even a 40W standard resistive heater will go beyond what is safe if allowed to (and we have heard of fires). The PTC heater on the Bambu got hot enough to glow red in Nero's updated test video. A standard heater will get much hotter, so they are inherently dangerous if the firmware fails. I've heard of examples where the aluminum heater block melted, dripping molten aluminum down onto the print, and I believe that was with a standard heating element, but I haven't tested it myself. Perhaps someone has the details or has done the testing. Even the PTC heaters get quite hot, but conventional heaters get hotter. So we are depending on good firmware for 3D printers to be safe. It is a special concern since in general we don't like to depend on firmware for safety. But for some reason the industry has not applied a thermal fuse to the hotend, whereas they have on the printbed. 

Apparently the firmware in the Bambu just used a simple timer rather than a more accurate thermal model of the heating process, so it is not quite up to current industry standard. Sounds like they will fix it soon which is good.

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[James Fackert]

the "glowing red" comment seems very very unlikely.

400 or even 500'C is not "glowing red"

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[Luke Hartfiel]

Maybe “glowing red” through a thermal camera.

Aluminium actually starts to creep well before it produces a glow that can be seen with the naked eye.

On 8 Jan 2023, at 9:50 am, James Fackert <jimfa...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Alan B]

James sent me an off-list message, to which I replied directly, then Luke sent his subsequent reply to this to the group. So I will include the part that I did not include to the group earlier as well as my new reply. How did Luke get this private reply I sent to James? Well, let's open it back up to the group since that is apparently the intention. It is unfortunate this group is misconfigured to derail conversations away from the group. This is rarely the goal.

What I said to James earlier:

The open circuit thermistor is a different (very common) failure mode, and not really the issue here. That situation is detected instantly by a crazy low temperature reading. Here to detect the problem a model of the expected temperature rise needs to be applied. This is done by most standard firmware. For some reason Bambu failed to implement this and used only a time out timer instead which has led to this whole situation. 

Thermistors have many failure modes. One of the failure modes of a thermistor is to just stop changing in value, it can stick at a value that looks like a reasonable temperature. In this case it no longer measures the actual temperature or change. In the data acquisition field thermistors are regarded as very low quality measurement devices. We rarely used them because they are not very accurate or reliable and are fragile. But they are cheap. We used things like four wire platinum RTDs when we wanted accurate temperatures, or precision thermocouples for higher temperature ranges. So it is quite important for firmware to protect against many types of bad temperature readings, especially with thermistors.

Nero's "screen persona" has become more animated and extreme since he went fulltime utube for his income. If you look at his older videos, that's the real guy (his name is actually Taylor). He has mentioned this in some livestreams. He's a bit over the top at times. As are many on utube. Apparently the feedback they get get from their paying customers seems to encourage this increase in drama, it's entertainment. I'm not particularly interested in the theatrics, only the information. Nero's Bambu printers have actually had a lot of problems for some reason so he is a bit harsh on them. Bad sensors, failures, etc. This whole deal started as a livestream to repair his broken Carbon X1. So he could hardly hide it.

Anyway, I agree he is a bit over the top at times.

Luke's response to the email that I sent to James, which he also sent to Luke and the group, supplied here for context:

> Maybe “glowing red” through a thermal camera.

> Aluminium actually starts to creep well before it produces a glow that can be seen with the naked eye.

And my new response to that:

If you (Luke) looked at the video you'll see it glowing through a normal webcam. It's just the heater hanging on its wires, pulled out of the heater block, so no aluminum involved. Nero mentioned it was glowing, it clearly appeared to be doing so. Try it on your printer, it's a trivial test to perform. Easy for you to verify.

Apparently the Bambu heater is held in by a flimsy metal clip that can easily come off with the silicone sock, so it is not anchored firmly in the heater block. A novice, which the Bambu is designed for, could easily make the mistake of releasing the heater from the block when they are removing the sock. It can slide right out at that point. It seems to be a fair test. Any printer with firmware watching for temperature increase would shut down with this test. It's probably a good thing Bambu used a PTC heater as if it were a standard resistive heater it would probably fare much worse than it did with a 3 minute timer which is far longer than the industry standard.

I really don't care much one way or the other about the Bambu personally. It's just data. I hear that the Bambu company is formed by a bunch of DJI folks. I have a DJI drone and it is pretty amazing technology, but the company has run most others out of the low end drone market with their predatory business practices, and they lock up their products so you have very little control, it's like letting the CCP into your life just a little bit. The Federal government has put DJI on their bad boy list and restricted government agencies from buying them. Just like the printers they have set them up in such a way they could use them for spying. 

I'm just an Engineer looking at data. I have zero emotion in this. I'm not in the market for a Bambu printer. If I was in the market for a printer like the Bambu I would be very concerned about the growing tension with China and the availability of parts and support as we go forward. I would not bet my new printer choice on that being stable over the coming years, especially for a multi-printer installation or farm. Most every tech company is scrambling to get out of China right now, at least partially if not fully, so the writing is on the wall. It is important to consider the big picture when you vote with your money.

Hopefully I interpreted this all correctly. Just trying to get the conversation straight.

[Luke Hartfiel]

I have no idea how I got the message. It just appeared in my inbox.

Makes sense now - we are talking about a bare heater cartridge, and not an assembled hot end. :)

It is just straight up bad design if, as you say, a heater can just fall out of the hot end. That is actually something I haven’t seen in years (like 2016), and with the advent of ceramic heaters there is just no way. Even for a V6 or a Volcano, I still need to give it a little tap to get the heater cartridge out (after removing the grub screws of course). It would have to be some cheap, out of speck “clone” (in the most generous sense of the word) for it to just fall out, even if the grub screw wasn’t tight.

I thought the X1 had all the bells and whistles, including a decent hot end? A easily removable retaining clip sounds like a kludge.

On 8 Jan 2023, at 5:44 pm, Alan B <alan....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Alan B]

Here's an update on the Bambu's thermal runaway testing from the well known Maker's Muse:

https://youtu.be/y259ajfqvHY

Angus tested it on an X1 and P1P with a high flow fan cooling the hotend to trigger it with the hotend assembled and the silicon sock removed. The large airflow prevented it from reaching the set temperature. He goes into more detail about what happens when the printer encounters this condition. Drama free testing and useful data.

[James Fackert]

The bambu heater is a flat ptc ceramic resistor, clipped to the side of the hot block by a very well designed stainless steel clip.

It cannot possibly "fall out".

It is way way more reliable thermally and mechanically than the old fashioned tubular wire wound heater cartridge held in a hole in a hot block by the tiniest set screw made.

The Bambu thermistor is slipped into a tubular hole, with some thermal compound and the same clip holds it in place and strain relieves the Teflon coated leads.

Again, no tiny set screw, no stress on the thermistor.

Plus, wonder of wonders, the heater and the thermistor have connectors and plug and unplug quickly and easily so the whole hot end assembly comes in and out with two cap screws and two little plugs. 

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[Joseph Larson]

I agree that BambuLab printers are very well engineered and that the thermal runaway protection, as a safety net, may never have to kick in. However, it's not unimaginable that a series of unfortunate evens could end with a fire and a PR nightmare for Bambu, and that a more robust thermal runaway protection could fix it.

Let's me it down. Let's say that while installing a new nozzle someone mistakenly severs the wire to the temperature sensor near the connector, but somehow didn't notice. The wire works fine as long as it's resting against itself, so the fault goes unnoticed for a while. The person starting the print is doing a multi-color print, and they didn't clean out the poop chute before starting, so it quickly fills up. Let's also say this is the P1P so there's no Ai to tell us the poop chute is full. As the print starts the temperature sensor wire falls out of it's place, and the printer looses the ability to accurately control the temperature, and it quickly reaches it's max 400C. It mid print, so the filament isn't cooking inside the nozzle, but it is coming out hot,, near it's flash point, and when the nozzle goes to purge, that super heated PLA, right at it's flash point, contacts the over filled poop chute and enough of it catches fire to start a chain reaction that will no doubt damage something.

Is this a likely scenario? Not really. It's much less likely than the scenario we saw with the ANet A8. But it's possible. And it's not the only way this could happen. Sure, most of it could be chalked up to use error and negligence. But, it could also be avoided with a more robust thermal runaway protection that was a little quicker to recognize that the temperatures weren't where they were expected to be. 

Listen, I love my CX1. But I'm not so naive to think it's perfect. But I do trust that Bambu will fix this soon, and it won't require anything more than a confirmation that I want to update my firmware to make it happen. At this this won't require any new hardware.

[James Fackert]

Yup, agreed. Easy software fix and I bet they do it soon.

Fail safe, belt and suspenders.

For those who are really really concerned, 

Good idea to have a smoke sensor in the room that turns off the power and calls you too.

 That should be done with any 3d printer operation.  And a CO2 extinguisher handy.

And sprinklers?  8o))

So much "might" go wrong.

But comparing printer features:

 hot ends without connectors, wrenching and torquing on hot ends in place, marginally hot temp capable shrouds and 3d printed parts,  and long bundles of wire that are NOT rated for long flex life are REALLY asking for trouble.

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[Alan B]

This user had two Bambu Carbon X1's and had quality problems with both of them, and Bambu refunded his money and took the printers back after failing to resolve the issues. He mentions others are having similar problems too, according to the facebook and reddit groups, so it is reportedly not an isolated case.

They (Bambu) says it is a vibration problem and he should print faster to get away from the resonances, but input shaping should deal with that, and printing cannot always be sped up depending on other print material and layer adhesion goals. He did a lot of testing and was unable to find a resolution to the quality issues.

Apparently Bambu uses smooth idlers, not toothed idlers, which can interact with the belts and produce issues. I've heard elsewhere that this can happen if the belts are too tight. Are the Bambu tensioners running the belts too tight? Are belt tensioners a good idea? I haven't seen other printers using them. Do they cause problems of their own?

Any ideas? 

https://youtu.be/4MviZs4bu30 video of the problem story

Should we be recommending this printer, or is there something better for small businesses that is affordable and supported? It's not something I would buy for home use, but it seems appropriate for some use cases like non-enthusiast small businesses.

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[Joseph Larson]

Should we be recommending this printer, or is there something better for small businesses that is affordable and supported? It's not something I would buy for home use, but it seems appropriate for some use cases like non-enthusiast small businesses.

 

I'm gonna put the conversation about toothed belts and flat bearings aside for just a moment so we can talk about this question.

Should we be recommending the Bambu Carbon X1?

and

Is there something better?

But I want to tackle them in reverse order. 

I have a CX1, and I can say there is no other 3D printer I have or have used that does what this printer does. Not just "at this price", but at all. Not only are it's prints amazing (granted I print mostly PLA) out of the box with zero calibration because it does all of it's own calibration, and not only it it's wifi buttery smooth (gonna, again, ignore the fact that we know it's dialing home to China every time you start a print) and it enables me to check on the status of my print on my phone without needing to poke a hole in my firewall, and not only does it's software allow me to paint multi-color prints with ease, not only all those things, but it does it with a graceful speed that just surprises me. I've said in the past that I don't care how fast a 3D printer is, just let it do it's thing. But there's something magical about starting a print on this machine and knowing it's going to be done by the time I get home, no matter what it is, big or small. Unless it's a multi material print, but that's a different conversation.

7 years ago I worked at a place that used Stratasys Fortis machines. $20k machines, and they couldn't do what this machine can do, at 1/20th the price. However, had Fortis continued to innovate like home 3D printing did, with the associated race to the bottom in price, I imagine what they came up with would look a lot like the Carbon X1, but with more steps in between. This literally feels like professional 3D printing came down towards the home market.

Is it perfect? No. Does it answer every 3D printing problem with a solution? No. But is there something better? Nothing that I know of in the FFF space. And I'm not sure I wouldn't say this isn't in the consumer space. A fully assembled Prusa Mk3S is about the same price. If you were considering a Prusa, but didn't want to build it yourself, I'd say if you could afford it, pay the little extra, and go for a Carbon X1. Heck, I'd say go for the P1P.

So, should we be recommending it? Well, again, I don't blanket recommend anything, but if you're in a position that you can afford it and you don't have a specific need that this doesn't answer (like requiring a bigger build volume than it provides) then I would say this is a very recommendable machine.

However, it's not perfect, it's true. It could still be better, and it's getting better, so that's exciting. I think the biggest critism of it for which there is no good defense is that it isn't open source. I love when open source is used and a lot of the issued Bambu has had could have been solved, or at least investigated, had their firmware been open source. So if your reason for not recommending them or wanting them is because they're not open source, fair.

Now, coming back around to the case on display in that video, I saw that one and it appears BambuLabs is using flat bearings on toothed belts, which seemed odd to me, but when I checked my other 3D printers with toothed belts and they were doing the same thing. I guess it never was an issue before because they weren't pushing the speed. Now, I do find it odd in the video that he says they told him to turn up the speed and he... didn't. He just said he can't push PetG that fast and didn't even try. I have to admit, I haven't printed a lot of PetG, so I'll try this out myself soon.

[Alan B]

What I've heard is that the flat idler pulleys on the timing belts work okay if the tension is not too high. Vorons operate at similar speeds and work ok with flat idlers unless the belt tension is too high, in which case the belt teeth create significant vibration that can affect the printed parts. This would suggest the belt tension on the Bambu may be too high, or perhaps the belt component itself is an issue rather than speed.

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[Luke Hartfiel]

I might recommend the CX1 in the right circumstance, but not the P1P. I think the P1P has been stripped down to the point it loses what differentiates the CX1 from the pack. It is not just a “cut down” device, but deliberately dumbed down (a small text screen? In 2023? Really?).

The CX1 is fast, and unlike other speed machines it isn’t an ordeal or test of skill to acquire one and get it dialled in. I think the LiDAR stuff is a gimmick. Sure, you get good first layers, but other printers, like the Flsun V400, for example, are similarly fast, and  are quick to set up and commission, and will have reliable first layers (and probably won’t ever need to be re-leveled after it is set up, unless you move it) just because of the design, plus it are significantly cheaper. For the record, I’m not recommending the V400, just using it as an example for comparison.

Honestly, while the CX1 looks good, it is a first generation product from a fairly new company, and the oldest units would only have three or four months of use. Just based on that alone, I probably couldn’t recommend it to a new user (that I liked). What is going to break in the first 12 months? 24 months? How easy will it be to repair? I know I can get both genuine and non-genuine parts to repair a Prusa (if any variety). I know that I can just buy a new Ender 3 every couple of months and it will cost me much less over a year than the CX1. What is the total cost of ownership of the CX1 over, say, two years? What commitment is there for software and firmware updates? What even is the expected service life of the product?

On 14 Jan 2023, at 10:05 am, Joseph Larson <joeal...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[James Fackert]

We print PETG exclusively.

Need the strength and useful temp range.

PETG needs to stay dry and prints better in a controlled environment enclosed printer.

NOT a prusa.

Prusa with decent enclosure costs more than Bambu carbon x1.

Carbon can  print glass filled and graphite filled nylon too. Never could do this before, and carbon is amazing at it.

The list of better features goes  on and on.

I have recommended it to everyone I have encountered.

Oh yeah... Fast printing,  fast USA parts at good prices.

The "not open source" is a myth.

This is the first printer I have bought that I did not want to change or improve two or three or more features immediately.

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[Kurt at VRFX]

Hey James,

Yeah - I hear ya. Just cuz its not Open-source, should not mean things are bad!

The trend is pretty obvious - Hobby Level is mostly open-source. But, Pro level tends NOT to be! IS that completely a bad thing? NO! Absolutely not! Essentium printers are obviously Pro-Level machines, and are NOT Meant to be modified by the customer. But, yeah - our current machines - you use Simplify3D to Slice your models for printing.

3D Printing co's should Absolutely Strive to Kick Arse as much as they can! I'm a Strong believer that if a co. creates some Cool Tech for 3D Printing - they SHOULD Keep it Close to their Chest, do a Patent - and keep it closed down. It makes sense. As that is Exactly how I would prefer to proceed - should I create some Tech that really is a bit of a Game Changer!

Honestly - I TRULY Believe that the Tech that Essentium is producing - is a TRUE Game Changer! But, we need to work REALLY Hard - to Prove it. To make the Tech ROCK SOLID - so that we can sell printers - and Blow People Away! Like the Carbon - its about Printing FAST! But, it also needs to be about printing GREAT Quality! And, I've been involved in Convos - on how to create great prints - but, with True IDEX - literally - Two Heads printing TWO Different Models. And, when you are printing in a HUGE Print Volume - that is a HUGE Task - and there are BIG Hurdles. ITs some of these hurdles in which I was in a discussion - and the WAY To solve it - per some talk by co-workers, HELL - its INSANELY Fascinating!

So, yeah - to be directly involved in a 3DP co. that is trying to Push the HELL Out of the Envelope - its TRULY Exciting - and I'm EXACTLY Where I want to be in Life - at a JOB - that MEANS Something!!!

In Regards to the PETG Printing - and going Fast. That's also an interesting discussion here - in regards to the Carbon. Yeah - to print fast - they GOT to print HOTTER! That is the Trick. I'm not revealing ANYTHING that you can't see by digging deep into the Essentium website. We print Fast - but, we also use filaments - and Produce filaments - that can be pushed to print HOT and FAST! So, even with the Carbon - can you print PETG Really Fast? CAN the PETG plastic HANDLE getting COOKED SO Hot?

Now - here's a CRAZY SUGGESTION for folks with a Carbon - and want to print PETG and Print FAST! My suggestion - get some Essentium PCTG!!! - Its Chemically VERY Similar to PETG and the properties you Seek - BUT - it can be heated Higher - and can print WAY HOTTER! In the end - at times in the FFF world - if you want to print Fast - you really also need to print HOT! So - get some PCTG - and give it a shot on a Carbon - and print FAST and HOT!!!

Hope folks don't mind my Enthusiasm for Essentium - cuz - yeah - the place Rocks!

-Kurt

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[Luke Hartfiel]

You shouldn’t have to print hotter to print faster. That is just a kludge people use with low flow rate hot ends to compensate for a small melt zone. It also means that you can’t actually determine how hot the filament actually is in the nozzle. You are just sort of guessing at that point.

For open source machines, the better kludge is to extend the melt zone. For example, you can get almost the same flow rate out of a V6 as you can from a volcano by just using a volcano nozzle in the V6 with no other modifications (and leave it sticking out by 8mm or so), or even better, adding some nuts to the lower half of the nozzle that touch the heat block and transfer some of that heat to the lower part of the nozzle. I hear the Bondtech CHT nozzles work great as well.

I would have thought that the CX1 would have a high flow rate hot end, with a similarly capable heater, and would not require any kludges at all to print PETG at speed?

On 14 Jan 2023, at 4:31 pm, Kurt at VRFX <vr...@optonline.net> wrote:



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