Secret project Discussion

[Paul Rose]

Hey all,

We should probably have one of these. It would be a good place to point
out the wiki was updated as well, as I notice Bob has been busy on it =D

So it looks like time is tight for Maker Faire. So do we want to get any
deadline dates down for certain targets?

I was wondering if the protocol can be decided and written out. I might
be a bit obtuse (read: cheap) and opt to use an Arduino.

Also assuming there is nothing Pi dependent it would be nice to have a
server to test such a thing on =]

Paul

[Paul Rose]

Paul Rose wrote:
> I was wondering if the protocol can be decided and written out. I
> might be a bit obtuse (read: cheap) and opt to use an Arduino.

Oh god that is funny... -_-;

[Paul Rose]

Do any of you hang out in an irc chan / XMPP server where chat would be appropriate. Or is it worth setting one up?

[Bob Stone]

Hi Paul,  

The proof-of-concept demo I put together over the last two weeks had only two control areas prototyped out of a projected 6 or so for a finished console and was already using twenty-odd data pins (luckily it's got about 65).  The Arduino Uno's got 13 and no networking and is completely out of the question unless cost is ramped up by using only expensive I2C / SPI components (which is, in itself, completely out of the question).  The Due's got fifty-odd GPIO pins, costs the same as the Beaglebone Black but still has no networking.  A Due or Mega plus networking shield costs more together than a Beaglebone Black and is still colossally less capable especially when processing text - assuming we're using JSON as you suggested you really don't want to be doing that on an Arduino where you will struggle with even basic string operations, let alone trying to deal with dynamic lists with malloc disabled.

I'm going ahead with Beaglebone Black clients and Raspberry Pi server via Python, and am prepared to write the whole of the core server code over Christmas to get at least a base playable core game working which can be extended, tuned and decorated in all sorts of ways as time permits.  I've ordered some parts, and will put together a physical design for at least one console to be sent to a laser cutting service, which will give us something that can be populated and photographed.  Are you thinking we might want different technologies in different consoles, or make one each independently?  It obviously multiplies the effort involved, but if you want to, there's a splendid Arduino MQTT library written by Nick O'Leary (@knolleary) at https://github.com/knolleary/pubsubclient, it works with the Ethernet shield http://proto-pic.co.uk/arduino-ethernet-shield-rev3-without-poe-module/ which by itself costs about as much as a Beaglebone Black.  This isn't a lower cost solution but I understand wanting to stick to what's comfortable.

For a photo and application for Maker Faire I think we only really need at least one fabricated console and someone looking panicked operating it, with technobabble control names visible on labels, i.e. at a minimum, the proof of concept software I've already demonstrated yesterday applied to at least one built console even if it's still breadboarded under the hood, and I think we're already on the way to realistically achieving that.

Bob

[Paul Rose]

Hi Bob,

I did spend the evening replacing my ignorance with information so it
all makes a bit more sense now. This is what get for being a no show ;)

Bob Stone wrote:
> The proof-of-concept demo I put together over the last two weeks had
> only two control areas prototyped out of a projected 6 or so for a
> finished console and was already using twenty-odd data pins (luckily
> it's got about 65). The Arduino Uno's got 13 and no networking and is
> completely out of the question unless cost is ramped up by using only
> expensive I2C / SPI components (which is, in itself, completely out of
> the question). The Due's got fifty-odd GPIO pins, costs the same as the
> Beaglebone Black but still has no networking. A Due or Mega plus
> networking shield costs more together than a Beaglebone Black and is
> still colossally less capable especially when processing text - assuming
> we're using JSON as you suggested you really don't want to be doing that
> on an Arduino where you will struggle with even basic string operations,
> let alone trying to deal with dynamic lists with malloc disabled.

I don't think I was planning on building the most complex panel, so I
was hoping the lack of pins would give me a chance to play with some
shift registers. However the networking is as you say, the problem. It
doesn't that is is impossible to do more cheaply than having to buy
a shield, as it doesn't seem that much to build an ethernet extension
with a ENC28J60 chip, which while is probably still out of my depth,
doesn't seem too hard. (Though I would be picking brains.)

I was more hoping I could use the Arduinio to go through an entire
prototyping process to the creation of a PCB to have the panel as a set
and fully functional piece as it would help touch a lot of areas I want
to experience.

> I'm going ahead with Beaglebone Black clients and Raspberry Pi server
> via Python, and am prepared to write the whole of the core server code
> over Christmas to get at least a base playable core game working which
> can be extended, tuned and decorated in all sorts of ways as time
> permits.

Don't hog all that fun to yourself =P Over electronics code is my
stronger point. I am sure if you push frequently to git we can all pull
test and hack about, raise issues, live the github dream! Or something.
I am thinking that the core game would be hardware independent, so we
could get software test rigs up to mess around with off the hardware. I
am sure there are a few cool auxiliary things that could be done like
replays on the web or something high score boards or some kind of
overall display while the game goes on.

> I've ordered some parts, and will put together a physical
> design for at least one console to be sent to a laser cutting service,
> which will give us something that can be populated and photographed.

Cool, Can't wait to see it.

> Are
> you thinking we might want different technologies in different consoles,
> or make one each independently? It obviously multiplies the effort
> involved, but if you want to, there's a splendid Arduino MQTT library
> written by Nick O'Leary (@knolleary) at
> https://github.com/knolleary/pubsubclient, it works with the Ethernet
> shield
> http://proto-pic.co.uk/arduino-ethernet-shield-rev3-without-poe-module/
> which by itself costs about as much as a Beaglebone Black. This isn't a
> lower cost solution but I understand wanting to stick to what's comfortable.

Yes and no. It does sound cool the game being client and mostly hardware
independent, but that really isn't going to be realistic how data is
going to be transported and processed. Other than that I just wanted to
use what I had. Then the idea of other ways you could utilise the game
protocol came to mind, again auxiliary modules such as sound lighting or
just unique bits that can be part of the experience (smoke machine when
things go wrong? =D). The idea of using a Pi or BBB sounded a bit OTT or
just turning something on or off but when you factor Networking, MQTT,
JSON it all does makes sense.

So now that I feel I have caught up a bit, and can stop being silly
pain ig'nant, I plan to order a BBB tomorrow, so I can join the fun. =]

So this leaves me with a question, what are Pi's and BBB's? They don't
seem like dev boards...

--
Paul

[Daniel Bailey]

If the client will be a BBB, I'll buy one to mess around with and perhaps start putting together some of the controls I have gathered into a control panel.

I think it will probably be far easier if everyone builds their own control panel and we end up with some that look different. As suggested before, perhaps agree on basic shape, size and colour and then we can all start making to those rough guide lines.

Also, Where is cheapest for a BBB?

Dan.

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[Bob Stone]

Farnell's £31 ex VAT, £37 inc VAT - but showing out of stock.  CPC (which is also Farnell/Element14) have them in stock at the same prices, with free delivery - they will bombard you with your own weight in catalogues, though.  Wasn't there some way of getting a student discount or VAT exempt for academic use?  I vaguely recall Nathan saying something to this effect.  Also Dan - I presume the original Beaglebone (White) that you have would do just as well, as we're not using the HDMI, I don't know how different the pinouts are,  The demo I put together was using the following Python libraries: Mosquitto (MQTT client), Adafruit_BBIO (for GPIO pins), a modified Adafruit_CharLCD (for the HD44780 displays, I hacked it to allow multiple to run with different Enable pins), Adafruit_LEDBackpack, Adafruit_I2C and Adafruit_7Segment.  Some from Pip, some in code.  I will try to get the demo code up on Github at the weekend, and if I fail at that, will get it on the Wiki instead.

[Daniel Bailey]

The only thing about my other beaglebone is that it is in a project, difficult to remove and would have to go back there later.

On 15 Nov 2013 09:44, "Bob Stone" <b...@bobstone.info> wrote:

Farnell's £31 ex VAT, £37 inc VAT - but showing out of stock.  CPC (which is also Farnell/Element14) have them in stock at the same prices, with free delivery - they will bombard you with your own weight in catalogues, though.  Wasn't there some way of getting a student discount or VAT exempt for academic use?  I vaguely recall Nathan saying something to this effect.  Also Dan - I presume the original Beaglebone (White) that you have would do just as well, as we're not using the HDMI, I don't know how different the pinouts are,  The demo I put together was using the following Python libraries: Mosquitto (MQTT client), Adafruit_BBIO (for GPIO pins), a modified Adafruit_CharLCD (for the HD44780 displays, I hacked it to allow multiple to run with different Enable pins), Adafruit_LEDBackpack, Adafruit_I2C and Adafruit_7Segment.  Some from Pip, some in code.  I will try to get the demo code up on Github at the weekend, and if I fail at that, will get it on the Wiki instead.

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[Bob Stone]

Have put some extremely rough sketches on the wiki - and reproduced below - of candidate basic design for a laser-cut console, with the fabrication method inspired by a mini arcade enclosure for Gadgeteer components I brought in once (it was playing Pacman at the time).  More details on the wiki.  My O-level in technical drawing didn't go to waste.

[Daniel Bailey]

So did we decide? "One look for all consoles" or "Each unique to its creator". I wanted to know as I'd like to start putting together some things I have gathered together.

Got the LEDs working with the pot. Looks good although the blue LEDs are a little bright. I have tried to dull/diffuse them slightly but they are still brighter than the rest of them.

Dan.

On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Bob Stone <b...@bobstone.info> wrote:

Have put some extremely rough sketches on the wiki - and reproduced below - of candidate basic design for a laser-cut console, with the fabrication method inspired by a mini arcade enclosure for Gadgeteer components I brought in once (it was playing Pacman at the time).  More details on the wiki.  My O-level in technical drawing didn't go to waste.

[Bob Stone]

I've now got a second BBB, and am working on extending the client code with calculator-style ASCII text in the 7-seg and support for cheap Nokia LCD displays, which can be used to label smaller controls where the 16x2 HD44780s would be too wide.  If anyone else has a new BBB, these commands will help get required libraries for MQTT and GPIO installed - SSH to the Bone with:

ssh bone.ip.address -l root

and on the bone run:

/usr/bin/ntpdate -b -s -u pool.ntp.org
opkg update && opkg install python-pip python-setuptools
pip install Adafruit_BBIO
pip install mosquitto

If you've got a Pi you want to use with the server code, also need to install Mosquitto and get the version of the Mosquitto python library through Pip:

sudo apt-get install python-dev python-pip mosquitto mosquitto-clients
sudo pip install mosquitto

[Daniel Bailey]

Cool, I'll have to buy a BBB for next wed.

--

[Bob Stone]

IMHO I think it would spoil the illusion a little if these consoles didn't all look like they belong on the same ship, and I'm sure we'd all have to pool our talents to get them made.  The idea of "each unique ot its creator" falls down a bit for those with zero tools to make something with.  I made a suggestion about laser cutting, but are there any other ideas for getting the actual boxes made?

[Paul Rose]

Just placed my order in. Should be here by Wednesday =]

https://robosavvy.com/ seem to have a stock of BBBs still

Daniel Bailey wrote:
> Cool, I'll have to buy a BBB for next wed.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Bob Stone <b...@bobstone.info
> <mailto:b...@bobstone.info>> wrote:
>
> I've now got a second BBB, and am working on extending the client
> code with calculator-style ASCII text in the 7-seg and support for
> cheap Nokia LCD displays, which can be used to label smaller
> controls where the 16x2 HD44780s would be too wide. If anyone else
> has a new BBB, these commands will help get required libraries for
> MQTT and GPIO installed - SSH to the Bone with:
>
> ssh bone.ip.address -l root
>
> and on the bone run:
>

> /usr/bin/ntpdate -b -s -upool.ntp.org <http://pool.ntp.org>
> opkg update&& opkg install python-pip python-setuptools

> pip install Adafruit_BBIO
> pip install mosquitto
>
>
> If you've got a Pi you want to use with the server code, also need
> to install Mosquitto and get the version of the Mosquitto python
> library through Pip:
> |
> sudo apt-get install python-dev python-pip mosquitto mosquitto-clients
> sudo pip install mosquitto|
>
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[Daniel Bailey]

AHA! Sudden good idea!

If everyone makes their console as an individual, as long as the front is no bigger than a sheet of A3 paper, we can just print a front for each one in the same style and then they will all look like parts of the same ship.

We can have a laser cut (or drill / file / hacksaw cut) sheet of acrylic or perspex on the front with the paper just behind. It would look neat, it would look uniform, it would look shiny, and it would be easy to make clear boundaries between the controls or to redesign the entire panel if needs be.

Sound good?

Clear plastic sheets aren't [too] expensive from B&Q, there's probably cheaper places on the internet or easier laser cutting services.

Anyway, I have an A3 printer and will happily print front panel designs for anyone who wants one. (Unless anybody has an A2 printer?? :D)

Is this a good idea?

Dan.

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[Rob Whitfield]

Not that I've ever been along to your meets yet (occasionally make it over to LHS, I live in Harrogate) but I might be able to help out with the laser cutting if/when you get to that stage.

I can cut ~600x300 and a 3mm sheet that size is between about £3.50 and £6 depending on colour/finish. 6mm is a little more (and I don't currently have any stock).

I'd be happy to cut for roughly cost - the laser's not doing that much at the moment.

Rob

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Rob (Mowcius)

[Daniel Bailey]

Aha! Great.

600x300mm, that's bigger than A3 right? That'll be perfect.

[Rob Whitfield]

It *should* do A3.

The useable bed is a bit under 600x300 due to how it's contstructed but it needs replacing anyway.
If I haven't sorted the bed by you want something then I might not be able to laser the outside dimensions but I'll still be able to cut the internal holes.

Rob

[Daniel Bailey]

My console at least will probably be slightly smaller than A3 anyway so it probably won't be a problem.

On an unrelated note, found an old LED POV clock that was begging to be used as a display for this project and will probably be hacking that together next Wednesday.

[Paul Rose]

Ahh awesome, I think I have a project that could do with yours services at some point as well Rob. It sounds like it would be safe to assume 590 x 290 ?

Back to this project however, I am happy with the printer / lasered plastic idea Daniel. 

If things want to have a uniform look about them, what a bout knobs, switches and the like? should we standardise on those or will those still be unique?

[Daniel Bailey]

It's a good question Paul. I think we each have some stuff that looks unique (I know there's unlikely to be anything that looks like my printer panel) and I think that would add a certain <French accent> je ne sais quoi </French accent>, or a certain character to the whole project. Perhaps this is where we should draw a line between "Consoles are unique" and "Consoles are all from the same space ship". They all have a similar background colour, font (for any labels like 'On', 'Off', '1' to '10', static control names, etc) and then they each have their own style in the way the physical controls look.

I think this would be a suitable balance.

[Paul Rose]

On 18 November 2013 21:30, Daniel Bailey <danielj...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think this would be a suitable balance

Agreed. Making sure to ask so things are explicit though =] 

[Rob Whitfield]

After a quick measure, safely 580x290.

Best of luck on the project!

[Bob Stone]

Would be absolutely bloody marvellous to get the help of someone with laser cutter experience - sounds a lot (a lot!) more reasonable than RazorLAB, would look suitably 'makerish', and after all without the benefit of someone's experience we could submit a drawing that sounds good in principle but smashes to bits in practice because we know nothing about the materials.  One 'control' featuring a HD44780 16x2 LCD as a label might be 100mm or so wide taking into account space round the outside, so 580x290 sounds like we could comfortably burn four or five top surfaces in one go with 6 or so control areas on each (some thinner ones using Nokia LCDs instead of HD44780 16x2s) - that's the sort of number of controls from our target game, fitting closer to A4 than A3.  Maybe 6mm might be safer for the main surface since that's the part people are going to bash in a panic?  But, I don't know, maybe it's overkill, or maybe depends on the material chosen.  Also - what would the design need to be supplied as?  RazorLAB support various formats but the 'free open source' one I saw was Inkscape.

[Bob Stone]

I put some setup instructions here: http://york.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Control_panel_game_client_programming - will be easier to do from home (or work or uni) than at Hackspace because of internet connectivity.

In the short term, because there's no router just a dumb unmanaged switch, I'm using static IP addresses to simplify them living on their own private disconnected network, and so already allocated are:

* Raspberry Pi server: 192.168.1.30

* BBB Client 1:  192.168.1.31

* BBB client 2:  192.168.1.32

...so I'd suggest if you follow the setup blurb on the wiki if Paul uses 192.168.1.33 and Dan uses 192.168.1.34 that'll be four live clients ready to co-exist peaceably, assuming the little USB hub can power it all without giving way.

[Daniel Bailey]

cool, my BBB should arrive tomorrow and so I'll try to get that working before tomorrow evening.

I can just git clone on a normal computer and then copy it right though? rather than fussing with git on the BBB? I suppose a global patch would be easier if they all spoke git fully though. anyway...

--

[Daniel Bailey]

The info on the wiki is taking shape rather well, mostly thanks to Bob. So; Thanks Bob. Is it worth sending this as 'the email' that we supposedly need to send to bytemark to get them interested?

[Mowcius]

Hi, sorry I managed to miss this email somehow...

Format wise, anything that can get me a dxf is preferable. Inkscape will do that.

I'm happy to lend a hand with actually laying out the thing if someone has an idea and prefers pen and paper.

Thickness wise, 6mm is likely to be a good plan but for something A3 (or even A4), support in the centre of the console would probably be advisable whatever thickness the panel ends up being.

Acetal/POM/Delrin may be a good hard wearing solution but it really only comes in black or natural (I've been trying to get hold of some 3mm in black for a while). Also, I don't know how well I'll be able to cut it on this laser. 3mm might be about the limit until I improve the air assist.

I've cut it with some success previously but it took a *very* long time with lots of passes.

Rob

---

From: Bob Stone <b...@bobstone.info>
To: york-ha...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, 18 November 2013, 23:41
Subject: Re: Secret project Discussion

Would be absolutely bloody marvellous to get the help of someone with laser cutter experience - sounds a lot (a lot!) more reasonable than RazorLAB, would look suitably 'makerish', and after all without the benefit of someone's experience we could submit a drawing that sounds good in principle but smashes to bits in practice because we know nothing about the materials.  One 'control' featuring a HD44780 16x2 LCD as a label might be 100mm or so wide taking into account space round the outside, so 580x290 sounds like we could comfortably burn four or five top surfaces in one go with 6 or so control areas on each (some thinner ones using Nokia LCDs instead of HD44780 16x2s) - that's the sort of number of controls from our target game, fitting closer to A4 than A3.  Maybe 6mm might be safer for the main surface since that's the part people are going to bash in a panic?  But, I don't know, maybe it's overkill, or maybe depends on the material chosen.  Also - what would the design need to be supplied as?  RazorLAB support various formats but the 'free open source' one I saw was Inkscape.

[Daniel Bailey]

Is it fairly easy to drill holes in after it has been laser cut so as to work the front panel design around the rest of the console design or are we better off putting in mounting holes in at the laser cutting stage and then designing the rest of the console around that?

Thanks, Dan.

[Mowcius]

Acrylic can be a nightmare to drill holes in, especially large holes.

If the effort's being made to laser cut any of it then it would make sense to cut everything as required.

Cutting front panels is likely to be one of the last things to do anyway so with any luck you'll have a good idea exactly what wants to go on them by that stage.

Rob

---

From: Daniel Bailey <danielj...@gmail.com>
To: "york-ha...@googlegroups.com" <york-ha...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 20 November 2013, 14:45

[Daniel Bailey]

Got my Beaglebone now, arrived in a bit of a dodgy condition though, see here:

http://s1194.photobucket.com/user/DJABailey/library/Damaged%20Beaglebone%20box

[Bob Stone]

Just the box damaged though?  Is the BBB OK?  I haven't got it to hand, but I think the box for my new one may have said 'Rev A5' on it rather than A6.

I created a minimal client with all the hardware-specific stuff taken out, that will echo out messages received via publish/subscribe.  I've also begun a config file for clients, experimental and far from fully fleshed out yet, but will contain both local-side setup that the client needs to know and an 'interface' section containing the abstracted view that the server needs to know about the client.  Will see what I can incorporate from 'master/client protocol'.  Isn't used yet.  I might rename it to 'default-game.config' and set up the client to see if 'game.config' exists, and if not initialise a default one.

I'm in two minds about to what extent should define hardware and its initialisation in config, so all clients run the same generic client program with different configs, versus having tailored programs for each client that are variations on a theme with a common core but bespoke hardware-specific code addressing the specific hardware controls attached to this particular client.  And I think I'm leaning to the latter, otherwise the 'generic' program for all clients would introduce library requirements for hardware that's on someone else's BBB and you don't even have attached to yours.

[Daniel Bailey]

I think the way to keep everything generic is to have the main client code be the same on all BBBs and then have the config for each one point to some script which handles the individual hardware requirements. Perhaps even a script for each control? I don't know much about python yet but I presume it is fairly easy to have something sort of polymorphic, a class that defines an abstract control and then individual scripts that actually do the hardware interface for each control. This way we could also have some kind of delivery system to replace the main client code on all BBBs at once if a bug is discovered in it and we need to make changes on all consoles at once. I'm sure we'd agree that's more convenient than having to fix the bug in five or six slightly different copies of the same code.

Anyway, my A6 BBB seems fine-ish. Lights flash and a mass storage appears on the PC but the files on it are all empty (with a few exceptions), this is apparently common though and a re-flash will fix.

Might not have time to get it all running today but I'll have a go.

Dan.

--

[Bob Stone]

Of course since it's written in a scripting language it might actually amount to the same thing either way, I suppose.

[Bob Stone]

Just had a delivery - 10 16x2 HD44780 LCDs, 5 PCD8544 Nokia displays, 5 16-key membrane keypads, 10 rotary 10k pots, 5 8x8 LED matrixes with MAX7219 drivers.

[John Cooper]

and a partridge in a pear tree?

john

[Bob Stone]

That arrives Friday.

[Paul Rose]

That was quick.

So what is the plan with them then? I was musing last night about how to make a once display panel without breaking the game dynamic too hard =]

Also it is payday soon, I can chip in for the bits.

[Bob Stone]

The plan was to make sure we had something affordable to build with in time to make at least a two or three player game, given that UK prices for those LCDs would make them too expensive and China delivery delays are variable and subject to the whims of customs, local holidays or poor quality control.  I'm glad they've turned up this quick though.  We'd still need a bunch more to fully populate a 4 or 5 player game but we've probably got enough to make enough for a photo for a January application and then time left to finish for a March or April faire.

I think we should talk Wednesday about more concrete plans for consoles - e.g. aim for maybe 6 or so controls of which at least 2 or 3 are flexible reconfigurable controls, at least one unique feature to the panel (see below), with the rest being smaller or dumber controls.  All should be more or less balanced the same so there's no player advantage to standing at any given console, all should be visually instantly intuitive with no hints needed, due to following a well-known convention or cliche for dealing with controls that everyone's grown up familiar with.

Cheap unusual control ideas: 
* A bank of toggle switches with simple red LEDs above them - instruction could be to set the switches to match the lights, for a random generated binary, we've all seen astronauts quickly toggling a bank of switches one by one
* A patch bay - coloured cables and plugs going into numbered or lettered sockets, could use phono perhaps, Maplins et al do whole banks of those on a panel for audio projects, but even breadboard cables into pin header sockets would work.  Again we've all seen such things on old technology, instructions could be 'plug red into A', 'unplug blue from D'.

Probably more useful to plan enough of these feature and flexible controls together then fill the gaps with buttons and sliders etc to fit, than to go too far down the 'auteur' path of independently-built consoles which might not be balanced or look like they're from the same ship.  There's no need to think you're individually entirely responsible for planning, sourcing, building, programming and financing one particular box and thus no need to find ways to do one cheaper than others - we may yet get sponsorship once we've got a more concrete plan with a guesstimated budget, and if we don't I'm sure divvying up costs will fairly reflect variations in ability to contribute.

Also, finalise name and more concrete theme / look and feel - what's our emergency?

[John Cooper]

On 26/11/13 16:21, Bob Stone wrote:
> The plan was to make sure we had something affordable to build with in
> time to make at least a two or three player game, given that UK prices
> for those LCDs would make them too expensive and China delivery delays
> are variable and subject to the whims of customs, local holidays or
> poor quality control. I'm glad they've turned up this quick though.
> We'd still need a bunch more to fully populate a 4 or 5 player game
> but we've probably got enough to make enough for a photo for a January
> application and then time left to finish for a March or April faire.
>

Glad you did that Bob, I don't mind chipping in some cash for these or
ordering some more if we can settle on a design.

> I think we should talk Wednesday about more concrete plans for
> consoles - e.g. aim for maybe 6 or so controls of which at least 2 or
> 3 are flexible reconfigurable controls, at least one unique feature to
> the panel (see below), with the rest being smaller or dumber
> controls. All should be more or less balanced the same so there's no
> player advantage to standing at any given console, all should be
> visually instantly intuitive with no hints needed, due to following a
> well-known convention or cliche for dealing with controls that
> everyone's grown up familiar with.
>

I like the idea of make a few "standard" consoles so we have at least a
basic game setup and then we can experiment or create our own ones if we
want. Getting everybody involved in making the generic controls might
help share some skill about as well.

> Cheap unusual control ideas:
> * A bank of toggle switches with simple red LEDs above them -
> instruction could be to set the switches to match the lights, for a
> random generated binary, we've all seen astronauts quickly toggling a
> bank of switches one by one
> * A patch bay - coloured cables and plugs going into numbered or
> lettered sockets, could use phono perhaps, Maplins et al do whole
> banks of those on a panel for audio projects, but even breadboard
> cables into pin header sockets would work. Again we've all seen such
> things on old technology, instructions could be 'plug red into A',
> 'unplug blue from D'.
>

I did have an idea that we could put handles on the side and when an
"Asteroid" is approaching everybody would have to grab the handles till
it had passed. It should be simple enough to check for contact on the
both handles or a connection between the two.

> Probably more useful to plan enough of these feature and flexible
> controls together then fill the gaps with buttons and sliders etc to
> fit, than to go too far down the 'auteur' path of independently-built
> consoles which might not be balanced or look like they're from the
> same ship. There's no need to think you're individually entirely
> responsible for planning, sourcing, building, programming and
> financing one particular box and thus no need to find ways to do one
> cheaper than others - we may yet get sponsorship once we've got a more
> concrete plan with a guesstimated budget, and if we don't I'm sure
> divvying up costs will fairly reflect variations in ability to contribute.
>

Agreed.

> Also, finalise name and more concrete theme / look and feel - what's
> our emergency?
>

"Engage the Control", "Space Knobs", "Don't Panic", "Apollo Controller"?
Anyway I am sure there are a lot better ones out there.

I would like it if we could draw up a definite plan for the standard
controller this week. Get a physical design for the case and knobs and
switches and maybe discuss getting something laser cut or at least MFD
and hand cut for a first prototype. Maybe we could lay out something in
inkscape and print it out on paper/card for a first go?

john

[Bob Stone]

Yes - needs doing.  Have attached pics from Derby Mini Maker Faire of Pimoroni's Picade cabinet, from the back & inside as well as the front.  Theirs looked like it could take some punishment, and the key thing holding it all together appeared to be 3d-printed brackets on the inside, looks a lot more robust than my suggestion of last week.  Also the bit where their arcade controls are was on a solid 6mm sheet with support from underneath and with an additional clear 3mm layer bolted on top of that with a printed paper sheet sandwiched between.

Also the server needs a housing of some sort too - currently will contain RPi, 5-port network switch and 7-port USB hub, both of which are similar dimensions to the Pi.  I've also got a Pi-Lite LED matrix which can fit on top of the Pi like a shield, which could be incorporated as a decoration (but doesn't have to be), and have also ordered the bits needed for the awesome cosmic clock we saw in Derby because it was just so Star Trek.  The clock did various effects but the one we saw was essentially this: http://youtu.be/BgS68LQ0R4A?t=1m59s - you can see the other effects it can do elsewhere in the same YouTube but the time point I wound it to looked like suitable for a Star Trek or Space 1999 display panel.

John, the Pi server box should also make noises I think - atmosphere, attract mode, maybe randomised sci-fi-ish MP3s when a control's correctly done - is there anything that could be duplicated from the Fischer-Pi for that?  I recently got an LM386 chip, were you going via audio-out or the pins?

[Daniel Bailey]

Yes - needs doing.  Have attached pics from Derby Mini Maker Faire of Pimoroni's Picade cabinet, from the back & inside as well as the front.  Theirs looked like it could take some punishment, and the key thing holding it all together appeared to be 3d-printed brackets on the inside, looks a lot more robust than my suggestion of last week.  Also the bit where their arcade controls are was on a solid 6mm sheet with support from underneath and with an additional clear 3mm layer bolted on top of that with a printed paper sheet sandwiched between.

I'm not convinced those are 3D printed, they look like standard flat-pack-cabinet style brackets which are fairly cheap at B&Q. Still though we can print them for extra makerness and cool factor.

Also, I like the idea of making the front sturdier by having printed things between two sheets of laser cut stuff. Would it make sense to have clear acrylic on the top and then a ply wood back? I suspect laser cut ply is less likely to shatter than acrylic is.

 

Also the server needs a housing of some sort too - currently will contain RPi, 5-port network switch and 7-port USB hub, both of which are similar dimensions to the Pi.  I've also got a Pi-Lite LED matrix which can fit on top of the Pi like a shield, which could be incorporated as a decoration (but doesn't have to be), and have also ordered the bits needed for the awesome cosmic clock we saw in Derby because it was just so Star Trek.  The clock did various effects but the one we saw was essentially this: http://youtu.be/BgS68LQ0R4A?t=1m59s - you can see the other effects it can do elsewhere in the same YouTube but the time point I wound it to looked like suitable for a Star Trek or Space 1999 display panel.

I like the look of the clock thing, I think it would work well with this project. I also bought a pi-lite at the Maker Faire and will bring it along to see if I can get it working without a pi. (I don't have a pi yet).

 

John, the Pi server box should also make noises I think - atmosphere, attract mode, maybe randomised sci-fi-ish MP3s when a control's correctly done - is there anything that could be duplicated from the Fischer-Pi for that?  I recently got an LM386 chip, were you going via audio-out or the pins?

Audio out on the pi can just go in to some powered PC speakers, these are cheap and ready to go if we want fairly loud sound from a pi fairly quickly with no fuss. I have some speakers with power, the volume pot is a little dodgy but I could strip them down, replace the pot and then we would have a working sound system for a pi.

Dan. 

[Bob Stone]

Great - bring powered speakers, can they work off 5V?  If so can maybe power off the USB hub too with a bit of cabling jigglery.  The Pi-Lite incorporates an onboard Atmel328, running a default sketch that reads serial input from the Pi and converts to scrolly text or other commands, but can either use a different external MCU to supply that serial to the same default sketch, or reprogram it as an Arduino - instructions here: http://openmicros.org/index.php/articles/94-ciseco-product-documentation/raspberry-pi/280-b040-pi-lite-beginners-guide#Running%20the%20Pi-Lite%20without%20a%20Raspberry%20Pi 

On Wednesday, 27 November 2013 14:16:35 UTC, Daniel J A Bailey wrote:

I like the look of the clock thing, I think it would work well with this project. I also bought a pi-lite at the Maker Faire and will bring it along to see if I can get it working without a pi. (I don't have a pi yet).

 

[Daniel Bailey]

Aha, easier than I thought, so an Arduino could probably talk to a pi-lite no bother then?

Erm... the speakers I had in mind are a little more power hungry. They need a rather large 12v PSU (they get really loud). It is possible that I also have some lying around that are USB powered already though, I'll have a rummage. Beware however that the USB speakers may struggle to be heard over the noises of a Maker Faire (when we get there).

Also, I'll bring along the LCDs, the 7 seg and the meter that I got from RF Potts in Derby.

--

[John Cooper]

On 27/11/13 16:17, Daniel Bailey wrote:
>
> Aha, easier than I thought, so an Arduino could probably talk to a
> pi-lite no bother then?
> Erm... the speakers I had in mind are a little more power hungry. They
> need a rather large 12v PSU (they get really loud). It is possible
> that I also have some lying around that are USB powered already
> though, I'll have a rummage. Beware however that the USB speakers may
> struggle to be heard over the noises of a Maker Faire (when we get there).

Maybe we need something like this to house the central console in?

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~njb/research/slorkSpeaker/allTogether.htm

Oh and does anybody have a smoke machine?

john

[Rob Whitfield]

My cousin has a smoke machine. Not sure if it would be available to
borrow...

--
Rob (Mowcius)

[Daniel Bailey]

Hmmm, well this is slightly embarrassing, it would appear that I have neither of the two pairs of speakers that I thought I did. The spare set is now in use and the dodgy but repairable set was written of as useless and ended up at the recycling centre.

After a quick look at maplin, the power rating of all of the USB speakers is very low, to get a good loud sound we would probably need a mains powered set, also with USB speakers you have to be careful to get USB-powered speakers and not audio-over-USB speakers. 

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[Bob Stone]

Have soldered one of the 8x8 led matrices with MAX7219 driver chip boards - works great, can run the exact same sketches I wrote for my led shirt.  I see this as being on the top part of the panel, not as a control itself (unless someone thinks of a way to make it a control) but alongside the instructions panel, providing atmosphere (maybe a sine wave or dual-helix DNA type animation) and game feedback from the server (like a tick or cross for instructions fulfilled or missed, maybe).

Have also had half of a delivery of what I've previously described as the 'Star Trek' special effect as seen on a clock at Derby Mini Maker Faire, I've got the 60mmx60mm large RGB 8x8 LED display but the Colorduino it's supposed to plug into was due Friday but hopefully may arrive Monday.  Have all the code and libraries ready once it turns up.  Still need to find tracing paper.

I admit progress has been slowed somewhat by my other deliveries of a PS4, new Mac Mini and a Leap Motion, each of which is a time-sponge!

[Daniel Bailey]

I got that Uni work finished and have started on stuff. I soldered that 8x8 thing to measure it up and noticed some odd things. The mounting holes are in an awkward place (the display covers them up) and one of the caps under the display needs to lie down despite what the silkscreen suggests. Anyway... How do I know which way to fit the display?

Also, Inkscape and openscad and other stuff are not playing ball at the moment. Colours aren't working, things are the wrong scale, dxf files are awful, etc...

Working around some things.

Dan.

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[Bob Stone]

You're right about the electrolytic cap, I soldered it upright and should have soldered it lying down - it pokes up a bit but the matrix can still be seated more or less OK.  For future reference - solder the electrolytic cap lying down sideways!  The mounting holes suggest the board wants to be seated onto something downwards rather than upwards because the pair of holes on one side sit below the matrix - but nobody needs to actually push it, it's just decoration/feedback, might be OK to just affix the two screws on the chip side of the board and / or slather it in masking tape from the underside.  Or, make a C-bracket with 3D printers, what are they for otherwise!  And don't worry about orientation - for the record I put it in the wrong way to begin with due to wrongly inferring from photographs about which side the writing goes, doesn't work but doesn't hurt it either, LEDs are diodes and just harmlessly don't work wrong way round.  When working, on the one I soldered, if the chip-side edge is considered down then the writing side of the matrix is to the right.

I read something about Inkscape's DXF export not doing layers - something to check / be wary of.

[Daniel Bailey]

Things are starting to look good on the laser cutting CAD file front. I have made a good start on the first console based on the pizza box design last week.

It's all on github if you want a look, the important file is svg_files/console1.svg. Most things are to mount in the PLY base. The PLY layer therefore has lots of holes for bolts to poke through, above each of them, on the acrylic layer, is a slightly larger hole for the screw head to sink in to the panel.

I will add some holes for screws to bolt together the layers of the front panel, these will be on the corners to stay out of the way and so the panel should be mostly flat except for the controls. As for supports to stop it bowing, to keep things looking nice, I thought it would probably be best to have the supports just glued to the back of the PLY where needed. That way we don't need to plan ahead with the supports and can add more after the laser cutting has happened if we feel the need to do so.

Let me know what you think, what's good? what's bad? Have I missed anything?

Dan.

--

[john]

On Sun, 2013-12-01 at 19:11 +0000, Daniel Bailey wrote:
> Things are starting to look good on the laser cutting CAD file front.
> I have made a good start on the first console based on the pizza box
> design last week.
> It's all on github if you want a look, the important file is
> svg_files/console1.svg. Most things are to mount in the PLY base. The
> PLY layer therefore has lots of holes for bolts to poke through, above
> each of them, on the acrylic layer, is a slightly larger hole for the
> screw head to sink in to the panel.

It's looking good so far. All seems to make sense. Do you want me to
measure up a 4x20 display for the top panel or shall I just create
another SVG? Also what about the sides etc should I have a go at setting
some of those up? Don't know how much you have done at the moment Daniel
as you are adding things as I check on them :-)

I wonder if I printed out the ply layer on paper and then cut it our of
card could we do some basic prototype or shall we just ask Rob to make
us a prototype?

john

>
>

[Daniel Bailey]

It's probably best to find a datasheet with the measurements for your 4x20s, If you can find one I can make it from that or if you really want to you could do it. If you do, try and follow the same method in the svg I've done already with the three layers of print, ply and acrylic.

As for the sides and whatnot, erm...? We should probably make them out of something really sturdy (more sturdy than just 3mm laser cut ply), perhaps get some fairly thick, much more stable sheets of something from B&Q (they'll cut big things you buy from them for free AFAIK). Anyway, yes, feel free to start designing the sides of the case as I haven't considered them at all so far.

As for a cardboard prototype, sure! try to get cardboard as close to 3mm thick as possible. I would recommend doing both the PLY and the Acrylic layers to get more of a feel for how it all fits together, I don't see much point in laser cutting until we have something that we think ought to work.

So, remaining questions:

Material for the sides (the rest of the box)?

Making a prototype?

Who wants to get the 4x20 modelled in inkscape?

Oh, and also, how do I do this in make....

I have an OpenSCAD script to take the name of a console "console1", "console2", etc. and produce an STL from it.

I originally had a makefile with a rule that looked like this:

console1.stl: ../scad_files/console1.scad

openscad -D 'name="console1"' -m make -o $@ -d $@.deps $<

and so I can do 'make console1.stl'.

I tried to generalise but couldn't figure out how to get the target name to appear as a parameter when it runs the program. Now I have a makefile with a rule that looks like this:

%.stl: ../scad_files/%.scad

openscad -D 'name="console1"' -m make -o $@ -d $@.deps $<

How do I get this to work for 'make console2.stl' without creating a new rule.

What I effectively want is for the text matched by the '%' in the target name to also appear as a parameter on the openscad command line.

I might not have explained very well but anyway...

Dan.

>
>

[Daniel Bailey]

Wait, I got the make thing, I just need $*

rule is now:

%.stl: ../scad_files/%.scad

openscad -D 'name="$*"' -m make -o $@ -d $@.deps $<

[Bob Stone]

Do we need some fixings from B&Q to get hole spacing for the drawing?  Like Pimoroni's case, plastic brackets internally to hold bits together, hinges and a door for access and construction?  If there's a 'door', maybe either the main control panel like a hinged desk lid, or the underside?  If we got such bits and pieces from B&Q could also pick up conduit tubing like this: http://bit.ly/1k1Vs3q (although hopefully shorter lengths available) - can feed the ethernet and power cabling through that to look a bit more sci-fi. 

Speaking of which, the Colorduino arrived today so I've got the 60mm x 60mm RGB matrix pumping out particle effect patterns, and a sheet of tracing paper held a little distance off the surface diffuses the pixels beautifully.  So this can sit on the server box looking enigmatic. 

The server box would therefore be: Raspberry Pi, five-port network switch fully populated with Pi and four clients, seven-port USB hub powering the Pi, four clients and the Colorduino & matrix.  There's an open question about whether to have the power transformer blocks for the USB hub and network switch be outside the server box or on a power gang incorporated into the server box, this way could also have a 12V separate supply for things needing it, such as Dan's huge 7-seg, but makes the server box need to be bigger.  If we've got one power cable in and four flexible conduit tubes out, could play with interesting shapes for this - e.g. imagine a pyramid with the top chopped off, so you've got four angled trapezoid walls, a large square base and a smaller square top.  So could have the four flexi conduit tubes coming out of those walls to the four game client consoles, and the Colourduino at the top looking sciencey, and can then play about with the angles and dimensions to make sure everything fits inside OK.

[Bob Stone]

Starship warp vortex: http://youtu.be/w3jcHfHz-MA

[john]

On Mon, 2013-12-02 at 08:24 -0800, Bob Stone wrote:
> Do we need some fixings from B&Q to get hole spacing for the drawing?
> Like Pimoroni's case, plastic brackets internally to hold bits
> together, hinges and a door for access and construction? If there's a
> 'door', maybe either the main control panel like a hinged desk lid, or
> the underside? If we got such bits and pieces from B&Q could also
> pick up conduit tubing like this: http://bit.ly/1k1Vs3q (although
> hopefully shorter lengths available) - can feed the ethernet and power
> cabling through that to look a bit more sci-fi.
>

I was thinking of this for space ducting but it might be a bit large
given the size of the consoles:

http://bit.ly/19dGd24

Another option might be clear or opaque ducting with some EL wire or LED
strips down the length.

I think I have a load of screw in right angle blocks that might be of
use. We probably want to be able to get in the box to do running repairs
maybe the back or bottom could open up of be removed?

> Speaking of which, the Colorduino arrived today so I've got the 60mm x
> 60mm RGB matrix pumping out particle effect patterns, and a sheet of
> tracing paper held a little distance off the surface diffuses the
> pixels beautifully. So this can sit on the server box looking
> enigmatic.
>

That video looks great. The sounds really make it!

> The server box would therefore be: Raspberry Pi, five-port network
> switch fully populated with Pi and four clients, seven-port USB hub
> powering the Pi, four clients and the Colorduino & matrix. There's an
> open question about whether to have the power transformer blocks for
> the USB hub and network switch be outside the server box or on a power
> gang incorporated into the server box, this way could also have a 12V
> separate supply for things needing it, such as Dan's huge 7-seg, but
> makes the server box need to be bigger. If we've got one power cable
> in and four flexible conduit tubes out, could play with interesting
> shapes for this - e.g. imagine a pyramid with the top chopped off, so
> you've got four angled trapezoid walls, a large square base and a
> smaller square top. So could have the four flexi conduit tubes coming
> out of those walls to the four game client consoles, and the
> Colourduino at the top looking sciencey, and can then play about with
> the angles and dimensions to make sure everything fits inside OK.
>

What does the switch run off? Could we have a single 12v supply and just
regulate for things like the Pi?

I had a quick look at some geodesic domes for the base and there are
some really simple ones that might work. Then each face of the dome
could have another cable coming out of it.

[Bob Stone]

Another option might be clear or opaque ducting with some EL wire or LED
strips down the length.

Ideally translucent with the lighting on the inside but diffused so you can't make it out clearly.

 

I think I have a load of screw in right angle blocks that might be of
use. We probably want to be able to get in the box to do running repairs
maybe the back or bottom could open up of be removed?

If it's a wedge shape back might be too tight for reasonable access, I think the underside.

 

That video looks great. The sounds really make it!  

Actually the video doesn't do it justice as it introduces 50hz flicker - in real life, it looks almost organic like a captured will-o'-the-wisp, and the brain interprets the blobs as having 3D volume.  Could also link it to the Pi over serial and have it provide central feedback about missed instructions, ship falling apart etc - in fact if it were mounted vertically there's another good effect it can do with flames, could switch to that as the ship's burning up.

What does the switch run off? Could we have a single 12v supply and just
regulate for things like the Pi?

USB Hub PSU says 5V 2A, network switch PSU says 9V 0.8A. 

I had a quick look at some geodesic domes for the base and there are
some really simple ones that might work. Then each face of the dome
could have another cable coming out of it.

 

 I like the idea of a dome, the central processing unit should look suitably impressive.  I offered the sliced-pyramid idea as being simpler but a dome would be sciencier, so long as there was a flat bit somewhere for this star trekkie effect that I really like now.  Also if we assume we're on a front-facing trestle table maybe a design that has its cabling conduits coming out across the front with a front-facing display is better than an in-the-round symmetrical one like the pyramid which would work best on a single detached island table.

[Daniel Bailey]

Wow, that aluminium tubing is huge... and expensive.

--

[Bob Stone]

A naming idea just occurred to me - SpaceHack!  Because it's Hackspace with some words swapped round - you see what I did there.

[Daniel Bailey]

Yeah... SpaceHack!

On 3 Dec 2013 11:56, "Bob Stone" <b...@bobstone.info> wrote:

A naming idea just occurred to me - SpaceHack!  Because it's Hackspace with some words swapped round - you see what I did there.

--

[Bob Stone]

Logos (thrown together with an online tool)

On Tuesday, 3 December 2013 12:09:20 UTC, Daniel J A Bailey wrote:

Yeah... SpaceHack!

[Daniel Bailey]

I like the first one best but I think they do all look a little "auto generated". Perhaps it's the many layers of effects that each one gets.

Personally I would go for something simpler.

There's a really good space-like font we can use available here: http://tenbytwenty.com/?xxxx_posts=akashi

(Don't be put off by the many Xs in the link, it's just a font)

[Daniel Bailey]

I'll try and bring some prints of the laser cut layers along to the meeting tonight, I'll bring a sharp Stanley knife that's in one piece so John's fingers won't have to suffer again. If that cardboard is the right thickness we can use that to  prototype things.
I wasn't sure what was meant to be going on with the buttons in the top right corner of the first console so I got a bit creative. Any thoughts? Also, what exactly is to go in the top left corner of this console? I can't quite see from the picture.

I messed up the readme and will fix it in a moment. The console svg is in svg_files/console1.svg in the git repo for anyone who hasn't found it yet (or couldn't guess :D).

Dan.

[John Cooper]

On 03/12/13 13:58, Daniel Bailey wrote:

I like the first one best but I think they do all look a little "auto generated". Perhaps it's the many layers of effects that each one gets.

Personally I would go for something simpler.

There's a really good space-like font we can use available here: http://tenbytwenty.com/?xxxx_posts=akashi

(Don't be put off by the many Xs in the link, it's just a font)

At the risk of bike shedding this a bit:

http://openfontlibrary.org/en/font/ramasuri

and

http://openfontlibrary.org/en/font/beams

And the licence means we can keep the font with the code on github.

john

[Daniel Bailey]

Yeah, let's hope we don't end up needing a separate bike shed thread on the list.

I'm not really helping by discussing it further but I like the fonts John suggests, mainly for the ability to republish them.

I'll try them in the SVG file and see if anything looks good.

[Daniel Bailey]

Okay, all I really need to do now then is get that last corner of the first console done and then it's ready. YAY! Laser time!

So, remind me, what was meant to go in that corner?

Also, questions for our laser cutting expert; how should I format the file you want?

I gather it needs to be a dxf file, I have got inkscape generating these. Do I need to make sure a specific colour is used for cut lines?

The files we want cutting are only cut lines, no surface etching or whatnot.

There's one to be cut from 3mm ply and another from 3mm clear acrylic. Are you able to do this?

I'll probably have the designs finished by the end if Friday if not today and so things can start happening soon. (Double Yay!)

Thanks, Can't wait to see our laser cut stuff, Dan.

[Bob Stone]

Dan, put the Adafruit 4-char 7-seg plus Sparkfun illuminated RGB rotary encoder in that corner under a 16x2 LCD.  You've got the encoder (and clear rotary knob) with you, plus Sparkfun have dimensional drawings, and the 7-seg is probably in Adafruit's Eagle library on Github.

http://www.adafruit.com/products/878

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10982

[Daniel Bailey]

I'm having trouble finding a diagram for the four digit seven segment display.

Do you have a link?

--

[Bob Stone]

It'll be in the Eagle library which is here: https://github.com/adafruit/Adafruit-Eagle-Library - open the I2C Backpack for 7-seg board in Eagle and should be able to get all required dimensions from there.  Failing that, I can get it to you somehow.

Also - Sparkfun do a breakout for the rotary encoder (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11722) although Proto-Pic don't carry it - we don't really need a breakout for panel-mounting it (just solder wires to the contacts instead) but at least the breakout will give the pinouts.

[Mowcius]

Well this has come around faster than I expected ;)

Regarding files, dxf is what I'd be after - otherwise I'd just have to convert it to dxf myself...
No need to do anything special with lines - I'll cut everything that's on the file unless told otherwise.
3mm ply and 3mm acrylic aren't a problem apart from not currently having any ply ;)
I guess you're wanting clear acrylic if you're planning on putting a printed paper layer below?
What size is the panel?

I'll see if I can ensure the laser's up and running again this evening but I am away tomorrow and over the weekend so no promises on when I'd be able to cut the thing.

Rob

---

From: Daniel Bailey <danielj...@gmail.com>
To: "york-ha...@googlegroups.com" <york-ha...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 5 December 2013, 10:23
Subject: Re: Secret project Discussion

[Daniel Bailey]

Is it this one here: https://github.com/adafruit/i2c-SPI-LCD-backpack?

[Bob Stone]

Nope, that's for HDD44780 16x2.  If you can't find it in Eagle, I'll measure the distances between the four mounting holes when I get home this evening.

[Daniel Bailey]

Okay, thanks Rob.

Yes, the clearest acrylic you can use will be best.

I'll email you the dxfs we need cutting once they are done.

The panel is 290 x 290 mm, I currently have cut lines in a square all around the outside of each layer.

Thanks again, Dan.

[Daniel Bailey]

Okay, I'll leave it until then Bob.

[Bob Stone]

Rob - So far it's just the top panel of one console though, making it early to make sure it's viable - three others to go, and we'll have a bash at doing the main bodies with wood and saws and manly brawn.  We've also got sketches for a separate console-top instructions and info panel which would be a laser-cut clear acrylic box, not designed yet (will probably just find a file of a working box about the right size and add the relevant cutout holes to the file), would be four of them too.

We're wanting to bring it to Maker Faire in April but to do so need an application filled in including photos and optionally video by 19th January
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/SubmitYourProjectMakerFaireUK2014

Dan - did the design include the 'handles' idea for the sides?  This would be to implement the 'warning, asteroids!' idea with instructions to grab the sides of the console (thereby making a circuit with copper tape around the edges).

[Daniel Bailey]

Handles? I didn't hear much of the discussion between you, John and Dave yesterday, where are the handles going? Do I need to add them on the top panel design?

Dan.

--

[Bob Stone]

The idea was to have handles at the sides that we could have an instruction to grab in a similar manner to the Asteroids event, since you'd often see the Enterprise under attack people having to grab onto their consoles to steady themselves as the ship gets buffeted around - doing them as part of the laser cut and sticking copper tape round the edge was only one possible way to do it, I think John saw them as more like conductive metal drawer handles or something that would screw in at the edge or possibly even mount onto the main body cabinet rather than the panel, I'm not sure.  John?  Dave?

[Mowcius]

I'd be wary of the strength of the console if you're wanting to stick handles on it and have people grabbing hold.

3mm acrylic isn't that strong, neither is 3mm ply.
'Laminated' together well (via lots of screws) would improve this but I'd suggest that the top of the sides of the console (perhaps made of something more along the lines of 8-12mm ply/mdf) would be a better position for any handles.

Rob

---

From: Bob Stone <b...@bobstone.info>
To: york-ha...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 5 December 2013, 13:52

Subject: Re: Secret project Discussion

The idea was to have handles at the sides that we could have an instruction to grab in a similar manner to the Asteroids event, since you'd often see the Enterprise under attack people having to grab onto their consoles to steady themselves as the ship gets buffeted around - doing them as part of the laser cut and sticking copper tape round the edge was only one possible way to do it, I think John saw them as more like conductive metal drawer handles or something that would screw in at the edge or possibly even mount onto the main body cabinet rather than the panel, I'm not sure.  John?  Dave?

On Thursday, 5 December 2013 13:43:18 UTC, Daniel J A Bailey wrote:

Handles? I didn't hear much of the discussion between you, John and Dave yesterday, where are the handles going? Do I need to add them on the top panel design?

--

[John Cooper]

On Thu 05 Dec 2013 13:52:13 GMT, Bob Stone wrote:
> The idea was to have handles at the sides that we could have an
> instruction to grab in a similar manner to the Asteroids event, since
> you'd often see the Enterprise under attack people having to grab onto
> their consoles to steady themselves as the ship gets buffeted around -
> doing them as part of the laser cut and sticking copper tape round the
> edge was only one possible way to do it, I think John saw them as more
> like conductive metal drawer handles or something that would screw in
> at the edge or possibly even mount onto the main body cabinet rather
> than the panel, I'm not sure. John? Dave?
>

Not sure really. I like the idea of the laser cut handles now but not
sure they would be strong enough so would need to have something
underneath to add strength.

The other ideas suggested I think was to just curve the edges out so
that adding support would be easier and we could wrap a conductive tape
under them so that we could sense if people are holding them.

Or my first idea of having the top just overlap a little then fitting
long metal cupboard door handles of some sort to the side of the box
to make them look like grab supports.

Maybe we could get the first one done with handles and then if we don't
like it or they break we can try something else?

john

> On Thursday, 5 December 2013 13:43:18 UTC, Daniel J A Bailey wrote:
>
> Handles? I didn't hear much of the discussion between you, John
> and Dave yesterday, where are the handles going? Do I need to add
> them on the top panel design?
>

[Bob Stone]

What about top-mounted thin metal handles of the sort fitted at the edges of rack-mounted kit?  Facing upwards towards you at the left and right sides, as if to suggest would be intended to lift the panel out for quick maintenance or replacement.  http://bit.ly/1bK2F93

[Mowcius]

You could make the box with rack mount rails along the top and then everything could be rack mounted anyway. Kinda like those DJ table boxes you can buy.

That would make the boxes easy enough to make and could be used for future projects just swapping out what's mounted in it.

A 19" rack is quite a bit wider than 290mm though. Perhaps go half width at ~241mm? Or non-standard...

Rob

---

From: Bob Stone <b...@bobstone.info>
To: york-ha...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 5 December 2013, 14:40

Subject: Re: Secret project Discussion

What about top-mounted thin metal handles of the sort fitted at the edges of rack-mounted kit?  Facing upwards towards you at the left and right sides, as if to suggest would be intended to lift the panel out for quick maintenance or replacement.  http://bit.ly/1bK2F93

On Thursday, 5 December 2013 14:10:04 UTC, choffee wrote:

long metal  cupboard door handles of some sort to the side of the box

[Bob Stone]

I wasn't meaning to make it actually functionally rack mounted or to adhere to any standard rack mounting sizes, just bolting on handles to make it look that way - in terms of the game we want to build, the handles are really forming a conductive switch connected through the body of the player, grasping both handles completes the circuit.  In terms of the visual theme though, rack-mount-style handles wouldn't look out of place. 

Handles like these: http://bit.ly/1eSG08E

Fitted at the sides of the panel like this: http://bit.ly/1g9YBAV or this: http://bit.ly/1gH6OKd or this http://bit.ly/18kWzJc or this http://bit.ly/1biQlKg except the panel's facing angled up like a cash register rather than facing forward like a stereo.  And no rails or anything, it's not really rack mounted, it's just a look.

[Mowcius]

Well it was more of a question of couldn't it be rack mounted?

If you're going for that kind of look anyway then why not make it so?

Rob

---

From: Bob Stone <b...@bobstone.info>
To: york-ha...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Mowcius <mow...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 5 December 2013, 15:29

Subject: Re: Secret project Discussion

[Bob Stone]

Because it would add unwanted needless complexity when all it takes to add the desired look is four holes and screws!

[Daniel Bailey]

Well I'd vote for drawer handles bolted to the sides, not in any way mounted on the top.

[Bob Stone]

Handles on the sides of the casing wouldn't look like rack mount gear though - but I can see how it's easier from the point of view of your drawings.  Dan, can you round off any sharp right-angles on the plans?  The external ones at the corners, and internal ones to eliminate points of stress - not sure if that's possible with the LCD rectangles but it's probably more important on the acrylic than the wood anyway and we're not cutting holes in the acrylic for the LCDs or 7-seg.  But e.g. the slot for the slide pot would want to have semicircular top and bottom rather than rectangular, and can move the slot extents a little way from the screw holes too to be safe, it's OK to lose a small amount of the movement extents as we can calibrate from the analogue readings to decide what '0' and '10' are anyway.  The keypad cutout's already rounded I think

[Daniel Bailey]

Yes I can round things off, it will probably be better to do that anyway as the slider may have a slightly 'dead' zone near the extremes of its range. I can put holes for handles in no problem, if we have a specific set of handles to use then I'll add them in of they need to be in the last cut top. Also, What sort of scale should the slider have? Is 1 to 5 good? Too much? Too little?

[Bob Stone]

All the 'select a number' type controls should have a baseline 0-10 scale for consistency unless there's a reason not to, but controllable through configuration - your huge 7-seg will be 0-9 for instance as there's only one digit.  For the slide pot, 10 at the top, 0 at the bottom, on a scale with notches printed to the right of the slide, and to the left, a strip of colours for configuring the control to a 'set a colour' control instead.  These are in the 'colours.txt. file on Github, but for bonus geekiness will reorder them according to the ZX Spectrum's colour numbering, so Blue (at the top), Red, Magenta, Green, Cyan, Yellow, White (at the bottom) so the whole extent's divided into 7 contiguous colour bands in a strip at the left.

[Daniel Bailey]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to have ten notches on the slide pot add it might get a bit cramped. There's not actually going to be much track to move around on. I thought five was pushing it.

--

[Bob Stone]

0 to 10 is eleven notches not ten!  And it looked absolutely fine when I drew it out to scale on graph paper, which can be seen towards the right hand edge of John's picture here: http://bit.ly/1gak8cJ

[Bob Stone]

I seem to recall when drawing it out to scale the full extent (minus a bit at top and bottom) looked like about 80mm of play, so to draw notches for 0 to 10 ended up being 8mm spacing between the notches - tons of room and can write the numbers nice and clearly too.  To do 1 to 5 on the same scale, would have 20mm spacing between each notch!

[Daniel Bailey]

I've just measured the play on the slider, looks to me like 60mm definitely not 80mm. Are we looking at the same sliders? If we are deliberately restricting that too (to avoid potential dead zones) then that's even smaller, I worry that we won't be able to distinguish the difference between some digits. By my calculations we can only rely on about 50mm of travel which will be a little to small for 0 to 10.

This is only to decide what is on the print layer anyway, we can try with 11 notches and if that's too many we can change it to 0 to 5 or something (and update the software to handle it). What we don't want though is for people to get frustrated as this particular control needs lots of precision and they can't change it in a hurry.

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Bob Stone <b...@bobstone.info> wrote:

I seem to recall when drawing it out to scale the full extent (minus a bit at top and bottom) looked like about 80mm of play, so to draw notches for 0 to 10 ended up being 8mm spacing between the notches - tons of room and can write the numbers nice and clearly too.  To do 1 to 5 on the same scale, would have 20mm spacing between each notch!

--

[Nick Moriarty]

Is there direct feedback on the slider?  If it's got slight hysteresis between states and we can enter a 'calibration' mode, it shouldn't be a huge issue to make it usable to many states, and direct feedback would help the player to set the control properly (plus it can be made more difficult).

[Bob Stone]

Dan - I said "I seem to recall", as I don't have one to hand, one is at Guppy's and the other is with you.  I've found the datasheet and you're right it's 60mm - still looked fine when I drew to scale though.  But it's only the paper layer and isn't remotely important so I will stop even thinking about it for now.

The Adafruit I2C backpack for 7-seg looks like this: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0187/3430/products/Blue_Web_large.jpg?v=1350471785

The 7-seg component itself, which would need cutouts in the wood, is 50mm x 19mm (and is 14mm thick raised on the backpack board).

The backpack is 50mm by 27mm, and the distance between the hole centres in the corners is 43.75mm across and 23mm down.  The holes are too small for M3, maybe they're M2.

Nick - I'm not sure what direct feedback means, there's no 'clicks' if that's the kind of feedback you mean, just a smooth linear slide (if it's an electrical term I'm not your man).  

The datasheet is here: http://www.proto-pic.co.uk/content/datasheets/TW-700133-Datasheet.pdf but there's not much to it.

[Nick Moriarty]

Sorry, I meant will one of the displays show what the slider is currently set at (so you can see it wind up / down as the system recognises the different states)?

[Bob Stone]

Ah - yes, for a slider in a top-to-bottom orientation it will go under the smaller Nokia 5110 LCD display rather than the wider HD44780 16x2 display.  The Nokia displays support about 14 chars by 5 lines, as per this image: 

http://www.bartbania.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/alphacrop-300x241.jpg

So we only need the top two or three for a control label, leaving us with plenty of room to feed back the detected value on the bottom display line.  Would like it to be configurable to select colours too, can display those on the bottom line as well as in a rainbow strip to the side of the slide, and can configure another mode to select words from a random list, in this mode whilst the player is moving the slider the control name would temporarily vanish and the five lines would show a scrolling word list, with the middle line visibly the 'selected' one, kind of like how you selected from a list in old phone UIs.

[Daniel Bailey]

Okay, I've drawn up the four digit seven seg, it's in console1.svg on github.

I have also put it in a separate file where it is the only item so you can print it and see if it will fit properly.

After seeing the photo I'm not sure I've got the spacing between the holes correct.

Anyway, if you wouldn't mind Bob, the test file is here:

https://github.com/yorkhackspace/Console-Game-Enclosures/blob/master/svg_files/tests/fourDigitSevenSeg.svg

when you get a chance just print it to have a quick see if it will work. Thanks.

I also started to add some more artistic stuff to the console's print layer starting with the big blue missile switch.

Feel free to suggest more stuff to put in each block on the print layer, I'll probably run out of ideas quite fast.

Dan.

[Bob Stone]

Thanks Dan - can't tell till later, but whilst trying to look at this at work, and hampered by having only a subset of programs installed here which will open SVG (MS Visio, Gimp or just IE), it seems that none of those listed programs would do a simple print of the loaded SVG file and make a printed drawing that was 50mm wide.  In Visio I had a crack at scaling the imported image till it was 50mm wide and printed that, but will have to wait till this evening to try - and even if it's wrong it could just be a scaling problem.

It made me wonder if there was any absolute size and scale info in the SVG and thus in any DXF exported from within it.  Perhaps there is and these programs I have available aren't respecting it, but I don't know.  One thought was to include on one of the larger bits to cut out and discard, ruled lines at right angles that say exactly how long they're supposed to be in both directions, so that after export to DXF and import in whatever software's going to run the laser there's an opportunity to check it's at the right scale?

I think you should be using much thinner lines though, unless that's an artefact of the import too.  I attach the SVG used to make the Gadgeteer laser-cut arcade enclosure made for me by RazorLab.  When I opened that in Inkscape I had to zoom in before the lines even showed up!

[Daniel Bailey]

The SVG file contains specific size data within inkscape but this probably falls over when outside of inkscape. Inkscape is used to create EPS files which DO have proper scaling stuff built in and so if inkscape says it's right then the EPS will be right. The DXFs are generated from the EPSs and so they will also have the correct scale. As far as I can tell, the DXF files contain lines that do not have any width data at all, they are just infinitely narrow paths and so whatever software does the laser cutting should handle it fine. I just picked 0.5mm lines so that I could see them properly in inkscape. I'd recommend therefore printing with inkscape.

Dan.

Ooo, 100th message?