wood preset

[Chris Marshall]

Hi All,

Anyone managed to create a decent procedural wood material using the standard render tree nodes? I need something that looks like antique furniture wood.

Thanks

Chris

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

[Chris Marshall]

I'll buy you a beer

[Schoenberger]

How close are you?

And what kind of shape?

 

 

For a base texture, you could use this:

http://www.binaryalchemy.de/develop/shd_vol/img/3d_library_overview.jpg

The old shader should still work with the latest MRay version.

(And I assume you had bought a license some years ago)

 

The old textures are only available in low resolution. If you have a large planar area, you could see the tiles..

But if the surface is not planar, there are no visible tiles:

http://www.binaryalchemy.de/develop/shd_vol/img_prod/nachkommen_baum.jpg

 

 

 

Holger Schönberger
technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

 

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 1:29 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: wood preset

[gareth bell]

Might be able to get something half-decent with this.....

http://www.pixelophy.com/?p=105

---

From: X...@digidragon.de
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: wood preset
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:07:50 +0200

[Chris Marshall]

Yeah I'm not very close with this. This Maya setup looks pretty good so I guess if I can follow the steps in that then maybe I could get something that looks half decent.

I'll also have a look at the BA shaders again.

Cheers

[Cristobal Infante]

or have you tried http://www.surfacemimic.com ?

[Chris Marshall]

Well I'm just trying to create a fairly straight forward mahogany type wood texture using the built in soft textures, which in theory should be easy enough. But It's not looking so good. I'm just wondering if maybe the base wood texture is just too weird and not anywhere enough actually like real wood.

[Stephan Haitz]

Hi,

 if you are not fixed on the built in Shaders, you could take a look at good old enhanceXSI.
Woods for example: www.shaders.co.uk/enhance_xsi/gallery/slides/Woods_Vol_1.htm
Quite easy to use and normally you get what you want...

Stephan

[Schoenberger]

The wood shader in SI is not very good and has issues.

Just put it on a cube and remove the distortion. Then you see what I mean. It look slike multiple added blocks.

But you could still re-create such a shader.

 

Actually imagine real wood.

A cylinder gradient scalar, multiplied by 50 (years), modulus 0-1 (to get repeating 0-1 for every year) and piped into a color gradient mixer.

Then some texture coordinate distortions on the whole thing. A bit global over all and some local dots.

 

 

Holger Schönberger
technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall

Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:28 AM

[adrian wyer]

maybe it's too early in the morning for me, but care to share how to achieve the modulo/gradient effect with example images? or a step by step...

 

always hated the fact that we cant have more than 8 markers in a gradient!

 

---

---

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3222/6773 - Release Date: 10/22/13

[olivier jeannel]

http://www.deskriptiv.de/form

[Stefan Kubicek]

Cool stuff, I believe there was an article about them in one of the latest
"Digital Production" issues.


> http://www.deskriptiv.de/form
>


--
-------------------------------------------
Stefan Kubicek
-------------------------------------------
keyvis digital imagery
Alfred Feierfeilstraï¿œe 3
A-2380 Perchtoldsdorf bei Wien
Phone: +43/699/12614231
www.keyvis.at ste...@keyvis.at
-- This email and its attachments are --
--confidential and for the recipient only--

[Greg Punchatz]

I love this kind of stuff and Tim Borgmann is the king of kewl motion design in my book...along with polynoid.

---

Greg Punchatz

Sr. Creative Director
Janimation
214.823.7760
www.janimation.com

On 10/23/2013 8:51 AM, Stefan Kubicek wrote:

[olivier jeannel]

Any idea what software ?
Houdini maybe ?
I find myself always fighting to get a beautifull noise / Turbulence...

Le 23/10/2013 15:51, Stefan Kubicek a ï¿œcrit :

[Eric Lampi]

Wow, very cool work.. Can someone translate the titles?

Eric

Freelance 3D and VFX animator

http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work

On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Stefan Kubicek <s...@tidbit-images.com> wrote:

Cool stuff, I believe there was an article about them in one of the latest "Digital Production" issues.

http://www.deskriptiv.de/form

--
-------------------------------------------
               Stefan Kubicek
-------------------------------------------
           keyvis digital imagery

          Alfred Feierfeilstraße 3

[Cristobal Infante]

lovely reference, thanks for sharing!

[Vincent Fortin]

I'm not sure if all the images are the work of Christopher Bader but I know he uses Houdini.

Lovely indeed! Also check out www.field.io

[Tim Borgmann]

No need to hang yourself Olivier, this is for sure really interesting
stuff ;) Thanks for the link.
Cheers
Tim
> http://www.deskriptiv.de/form
>
>
>
>

[Simon Reeves]

I think they are houdini? I've been making something similar recently rotating strands around and what not, hopefully I will show soon!

Simon Reeves

London, UK

si...@simonreeves.com
www.simonreeves.com

[Robert Lansdale]

unsubscibe

Regards,

Robert Lansdale, CTO & Product Manager
Okino Computer Graphics.

-----------------------------------------------------------
1515 Britannia Road, East. Mississauga, Ontario. L4W 4K1.
Tel: 888-3D-OKINO, (905) 672-9328. http://www.okino.com

[pet...@skynet.be]

to a degree, you can get around that, by plugging a gradient into a gradient (ad infinitum).

so if you have a simple B/W gradient at first, plug it into one which goes from B>W>B>W>B>W>B>W again into one which goes from B>W>B>W>B>W>B>W you will end up with some very fine detail high contrast lines. Chain as many B/W gradients as you want like that, and as the very last one only, use a color gradient.

When you use a procedural as the source rather than a gradient, it gets interesting. This combined with UV distortion can really get some more detail and richness than the simple procedural provides...

This said, a few more out of the box procedurals would be very welcome. They haven’t received any development love since the stone age.

[Chris Marshall]

You got anything like this already setup?

[pet...@skynet.be]

have a look at this (not that its pretty) –

compare the vein, which is the source procedural and is soft with little detail – and the result further up the tree – and see how much more detail there is.

 

I’ve combined a few things that come in handy:

plugging gradient into gradient to get high contrast detail out of something very soft

plugging a fine procedural into the range of the gradient to get some fine distortion

UV distortion

mixing several color variations of the same pattern with a procedural

 

not that you need all of that at once, but just to give you some ideas.

[olivier jeannel]

I think it is excellent !

Le 25/10/2013 09:38, pet...@skynet.be a �crit�:

have a look at this (not that its pretty) �

compare the vein, which is the source procedural and is soft with little detail � and the result further up the tree � and see how much more detail there is.

�

I�ve combined a few things that come in handy:

plugging gradient into gradient to get high contrast detail out of something very soft

plugging a fine procedural into the range of the gradient to get some fine distortion

UV distortion

mixing several color variations of the same pattern with a procedural

�

not that you need all of that at once, but just to give you some ideas.

�

�

From: Chris Marshall

Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:24 PM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: Re: wood preset

�

You got anything like this already setup?

On 23 October 2013 18:37, <pet...@skynet.be> wrote:

to a degree, you can get around that, by plugging a gradient into a gradient (ad infinitum).

so if you have a simple B/W gradient at first, plug it into one which goes from B>W>B>W>B>W>B>W again into one which goes from B>W>B>W>B>W>B>W you will end up with some very fine detail high contrast lines. Chain as many B/W gradients as you want like that, and as the very last one only, use a color gradient.

When you use a procedural as the source rather than a gradient, it gets interesting. This combined with UV distortion can really get some more detail and richness than the simple procedural provides...

This said, a few more out of the box procedurals would be very welcome. They haven�t received any development love since the stone age.

�

From: adrian wyer

Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 11:33 AM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: RE: wood preset

�

maybe it's too early in the morning for me, but care to share how to achieve the modulo/gradient effect with example images? or a step by step...

�

always hated the fact that we cant have more than 8 markers in a gradient!

�

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Schoenberger
Sent: 22 October 2013 19:38
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: wood preset

�

The wood shader in SI is not very good and has issues.

Just put it on a cube and remove the distortion. Then you see what I mean. It look slike multiple added blocks.

But you could still re-create such a shader.

�

Actually imagine real wood.

A cylinder gradient scalar, multiplied by 50 (years), modulus 0-1 (to get repeating 0-1 for every year) and piped into a color gradient mixer.

Then some texture coordinate distortions on the whole thing. A bit global over all and some local dots.

�

�

Holger Sch�nberger

technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

�

�

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:28 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: wood preset

Well I'm just trying to create a fairly straight forward mahogany type wood texture using the built in soft textures, which in theory should be easy enough. But It's not looking so good. I'm just wondering if maybe the base wood texture is just too weird and not anywhere enough actually like real wood.

�

�

On 22 October 2013 10:20, Cristobal Infante <cgc...@gmail.com> wrote:

or have you tried http://www.surfacemimic.com ?

�

�

�

On 22 October 2013 09:59, Chris Marshall <chrisma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah I'm not very close with this. This Maya setup looks pretty good so I guess if I can follow the steps in that then maybe I could get something that looks half decent.

I'll also have a look at the BA shaders again.

Cheers

�

�

On 21 October 2013 22:40, gareth bell <garet...@outlook.com> wrote:

Might be able to get something half-decent with this.....

http://www.pixelophy.com/?p=105

---

From: X...@digidragon.de
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: wood preset
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:07:50 +0200

�

How close are you?

And what kind of shape?

�

�

For a base texture, you could use this:

http://www.binaryalchemy.de/develop/shd_vol/img/3d_library_overview.jpg

The old shader should still work with the latest MRay version.

(And I assume you had bought a license some years ago)

�

The old textures are only available in low resolution. If you have a large planar area, you could see the tiles..

But if the surface is not planar, there are no visible tiles:

http://www.binaryalchemy.de/develop/shd_vol/img_prod/nachkommen_baum.jpg

�

�

�

Holger Sch�nberger

technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

�

�

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 1:29 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: wood preset

I'll buy you a beer

�

On 21 October 2013 12:17, Chris Marshall <chrisma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

Anyone managed to create a decent procedural wood material using the standard render tree nodes? I need something that looks like antique furniture wood.

�

Thanks

Chris

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

�

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

---

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3222/6773 - Release Date: 10/22/13

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

[olivier jeannel]

For the fun of it, reproduced the concept but in ice.

Le 25/10/2013 09:38, pet...@skynet.be a �crit�:

have a look at this (not that its pretty) �

compare the vein, which is the source procedural and is soft with little detail � and the result further up the tree � and see how much more detail there is.

�

I�ve combined a few things that come in handy:

plugging gradient into gradient to get high contrast detail out of something very soft

plugging a fine procedural into the range of the gradient to get some fine distortion

UV distortion

mixing several color variations of the same pattern with a procedural

�

not that you need all of that at once, but just to give you some ideas.

�

�

From: Chris Marshall

Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:24 PM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: Re: wood preset

�

You got anything like this already setup?

On 23 October 2013 18:37, <pet...@skynet.be> wrote:

to a degree, you can get around that, by plugging a gradient into a gradient (ad infinitum).

so if you have a simple B/W gradient at first, plug it into one which goes from B>W>B>W>B>W>B>W again into one which goes from B>W>B>W>B>W>B>W you will end up with some very fine detail high contrast lines. Chain as many B/W gradients as you want like that, and as the very last one only, use a color gradient.

When you use a procedural as the source rather than a gradient, it gets interesting. This combined with UV distortion can really get some more detail and richness than the simple procedural provides...

This said, a few more out of the box procedurals would be very welcome. They haven�t received any development love since the stone age.

�

From: adrian wyer

Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 11:33 AM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: RE: wood preset

�

maybe it's too early in the morning for me, but care to share how to achieve the modulo/gradient effect with example images? or a step by step...

�

always hated the fact that we cant have more than 8 markers in a gradient!

�

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Schoenberger
Sent: 22 October 2013 19:38
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: wood preset

�

The wood shader in SI is not very good and has issues.

Just put it on a cube and remove the distortion. Then you see what I mean. It look slike multiple added blocks.

But you could still re-create such a shader.

�

Actually imagine real wood.

A cylinder gradient scalar, multiplied by 50 (years), modulus 0-1 (to get repeating 0-1 for every year) and piped into a color gradient mixer.

Then some texture coordinate distortions on the whole thing. A bit global over all and some local dots.

�

�

Holger Sch�nberger

technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

�

�

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:28 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: wood preset

Well I'm just trying to create a fairly straight forward mahogany type wood texture using the built in soft textures, which in theory should be easy enough. But It's not looking so good. I'm just wondering if maybe the base wood texture is just too weird and not anywhere enough actually like real wood.

�

�

On 22 October 2013 10:20, Cristobal Infante <cgc...@gmail.com> wrote:

or have you tried http://www.surfacemimic.com ?

�

�

�

On 22 October 2013 09:59, Chris Marshall <chrisma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah I'm not very close with this. This Maya setup looks pretty good so I guess if I can follow the steps in that then maybe I could get something that looks half decent.

I'll also have a look at the BA shaders again.

Cheers

�

�

On 21 October 2013 22:40, gareth bell <garet...@outlook.com> wrote:

Might be able to get something half-decent with this.....

http://www.pixelophy.com/?p=105

---

From: X...@digidragon.de
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: wood preset
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:07:50 +0200

�

How close are you?

And what kind of shape?

�

�

For a base texture, you could use this:

http://www.binaryalchemy.de/develop/shd_vol/img/3d_library_overview.jpg

The old shader should still work with the latest MRay version.

(And I assume you had bought a license some years ago)

�

The old textures are only available in low resolution. If you have a large planar area, you could see the tiles..

But if the surface is not planar, there are no visible tiles:

http://www.binaryalchemy.de/develop/shd_vol/img_prod/nachkommen_baum.jpg

�

�

�

Holger Sch�nberger

technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

�

�

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 1:29 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: wood preset

I'll buy you a beer

�

On 21 October 2013 12:17, Chris Marshall <chrisma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

Anyone managed to create a decent procedural wood material using the standard render tree nodes? I need something that looks like antique furniture wood.

�

Thanks

Chris

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

�

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

---

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3222/6773 - Release Date: 10/22/13

�

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

�

[Chris Marshall]

That's very useful. Thanks for posting!!

On 25 October 2013 10:17, olivier jeannel <olivier...@noos.fr> wrote:

For the fun of it, reproduced the concept but in ice.

Le 25/10/2013 09:38, pet...@skynet.be a écrit :

have a look at this (not that its pretty) –

compare the vein, which is the source procedural and is soft with little detail – and the result further up the tree – and see how much more detail there is.

 

I’ve combined a few things that come in handy:

plugging gradient into gradient to get high contrast detail out of something very soft

plugging a fine procedural into the range of the gradient to get some fine distortion

UV distortion

mixing several color variations of the same pattern with a procedural

 

not that you need all of that at once, but just to give you some ideas.

 

From: Chris Marshall

Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:24 PM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: Re: wood preset

You got anything like this already setup?

On 23 October 2013 18:37, <pet...@skynet.be> wrote:

to a degree, you can get around that, by plugging a gradient into a gradient (ad infinitum).

so if you have a simple B/W gradient at first, plug it into one which goes from B>W>B>W>B>W>B>W again into one which goes from B>W>B>W>B>W>B>W you will end up with some very fine detail high contrast lines. Chain as many B/W gradients as you want like that, and as the very last one only, use a color gradient.

When you use a procedural as the source rather than a gradient, it gets interesting. This combined with UV distortion can really get some more detail and richness than the simple procedural provides...

This said, a few more out of the box procedurals would be very welcome. They haven’t received any development love since the stone age.

 

From: adrian wyer

Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 11:33 AM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: RE: wood preset

 

maybe it's too early in the morning for me, but care to share how to achieve the modulo/gradient effect with example images? or a step by step...

 

always hated the fact that we cant have more than 8 markers in a gradient!

 

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Schoenberger
Sent: 22 October 2013 19:38
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: wood preset

 

The wood shader in SI is not very good and has issues.

Just put it on a cube and remove the distortion. Then you see what I mean. It look slike multiple added blocks.

But you could still re-create such a shader.

 

Actually imagine real wood.

A cylinder gradient scalar, multiplied by 50 (years), modulus 0-1 (to get repeating 0-1 for every year) and piped into a color gradient mixer.

Then some texture coordinate distortions on the whole thing. A bit global over all and some local dots.

 

 

Holger Schönberger

technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:28 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: wood preset

Well I'm just trying to create a fairly straight forward mahogany type wood texture using the built in soft textures, which in theory should be easy enough. But It's not looking so good. I'm just wondering if maybe the base wood texture is just too weird and not anywhere enough actually like real wood.

 

 

On 22 October 2013 10:20, Cristobal Infante <cgc...@gmail.com> wrote:

or have you tried http://www.surfacemimic.com ?

 

 

 

On 22 October 2013 09:59, Chris Marshall <chrisma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah I'm not very close with this. This Maya setup looks pretty good so I guess if I can follow the steps in that then maybe I could get something that looks half decent.

I'll also have a look at the BA shaders again.

Cheers

 

 

On 21 October 2013 22:40, gareth bell <garet...@outlook.com> wrote:

Might be able to get something half-decent with this.....

http://www.pixelophy.com/?p=105

---

From: X...@digidragon.de
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: wood preset
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:07:50 +0200

 

How close are you?

And what kind of shape?

 

 

For a base texture, you could use this:

http://www.binaryalchemy.de/develop/shd_vol/img/3d_library_overview.jpg

The old shader should still work with the latest MRay version.

(And I assume you had bought a license some years ago)

 

The old textures are only available in low resolution. If you have a large planar area, you could see the tiles..

But if the surface is not planar, there are no visible tiles:

http://www.binaryalchemy.de/develop/shd_vol/img_prod/nachkommen_baum.jpg

 

 

 

Holger Schönberger

technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 1:29 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: wood preset

I'll buy you a beer

 

On 21 October 2013 12:17, Chris Marshall <chrisma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

Anyone managed to create a decent procedural wood material using the standard render tree nodes? I need something that looks like antique furniture wood.

 

Thanks

Chris

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3426 / Virus Database: 3222/6773 - Release Date: 10/22/13

--

Chris Marshall

Mint Motion Limited

029 20 37 27 57

07730 533 115

www.mintmotion.co.uk

 

[pet...@skynet.be]

cool – opens up a host of animation possibilities.

 

its friday, most psychedelic entry wins .

 

[Schoenberger]

Here you go:

www.BinaryAlchemy.de/ftp_file/Wood.zip

 

 

Radial Gradient (UV planar) -> multiplied (=wood years).

Then some noise added

At last modulus to keep it in range 0-1 (actually modulus mode ping-pong 0-1, 1-0, 0-1 instead of 0-1, 0-1, 0-1)

 

Some scale slider is missing, so you have to adjust the fractals if you modify the number of wood years.

 

 

 

 

Holger Schönberger
technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

 

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of adrian wyer
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 11:34 AM

[Chris Marshall]

OK Yes that looks pretty cool!

Thanks a lot!

[olivier jeannel]

That's what I call a wood preset !
https://vimeo.com/77225150
Displace, I would say....