linear workflow: color picking

[Philipp Oeser]

Hi everyone!

With the improved linear workflow in v7 there is still something that I
dont quite get:
lets say you have some input image (sRGB/with gamma) that you load in as
a clip. Now you can tell mentalray to linearize (in clips PPG "color
profile") which is nice and works well.
But how would I pick a color from that image that would already reflect
the linearization? to apply in a shader so that it matches the
linearized color?

One obvious approach would be to render the clip in a constant material
with render region (with preference colormanagement turned OFF), and
pick from this "linear" renderregion.
But this seems a bit tedious.

Anyone came up with a better way?

thanx in advance
Philipp

--

Philipp Oeser
Software Engineer

fon: +49 (0)40 226 226 00
fax: +49 (0)40 226 226 026
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[Philipp Oeser]

Sorry for the bump, but I really want to get this workflow down
now...how are you doing it?
(or was I talking pure nonsense?)

Philipp Oeser schrieb:

[Rick Thiele]

Hey,

when you use the color picker, if you go into '>' under the color bar, you have a Gamma Correction option... if you tick it and Then pick the color in your image, you can unclick after picking and it will /gamma correct that color based on your preferences you can do it the other way around as well.

cheers

Rick Thiele

2008/11/13 Philipp Oeser <philip...@liga01.de>

[Nils Engler]

instead of picking from an actual object rendered in the region you
could also pick the values from a texture preview render in RT /
shaderball or alike. you won´t be able to pick any values above 1, if
i remember correctly. i might be wrong, though.

nils

[Philipp Oeser]

thanx rick :)

Rick Thiele schrieb:

--

 

LIGA_01 | HAMBURG

LIGA_01 COMPUTERFILM HAMBURG GmbH | Grosse Theaterstrasse 1 | 20354 Hamburg, Germany
fon: +49 (0)40 226 226 00 | fax: +49 (0)40 226 226 026 | www.liga01.com

Geschäftsführer: Pablo Bach, Justus Engel | Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 98694 | USt-IdNr. DE250842902

LIGA_01 | MÜNCHEN

LIGA_01 COMPUTERFILM GmbH | Landwehrstrasse 60-62 | 80336 Munich, Germany
fon: +49 (0)89 51 555 888 | fax: +49 (0)89 51 555 877 | www.liga01.com

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[Andreas Bystrom]

you can also right-click on the colorswatch to do the same thing, it's
a bit quicker.

there is also a preference that tells it to always use gamma-corrected
colorpickers.

[Philipp Oeser]

bah, that was too quick I guess:
as far as i can see, it is still picking the non-linearized color (the
gamma correction is just for the representation on monitor).
doesnt matter if you turn it on or off, the values are the same.
what I want is different (linearized) values

example again:
(1) lets assume "noIcon.pic" source is sRGB/with gamma
(2) in clips PPG put color profile to sRGB (this will reverse
gamma/linearize the texture values before render)
(3) color pick from this clip (doesnt matter if gamma corrected picker
or not - its the same values)
(4) render both "noIcon" and the constant picked color side by side -->
not the same thing
... does this make sense?

Andreas Bystrom schrieb:

[Nils Engler]

yes, makes perfect sense.
as i said before you cold pick the colors from the preview render
visualisation, which displays the linearized texture.
second, you could pick the value from the image into a color share
node and pipe this through a sRGB to LIN shader (i.e. from harry bardak
´s xsi-blog article on colorspaces) into the destination color port. i
usually do it this way; it introduces a couple of extra nodes but
keeps the setup rather flexible.

nils

[Philipp Oeser]

here we go :)
I just wasnt aware of the the previewing options in the rendertree.
sounds stupid, is stupid.... [goes and stands in a corner for the next
45min]

thanx anyway...
Philipp

Nils Engler schrieb:

> yes, makes perfect sense.
> as i said before you cold pick the colors from the preview render
> visualisation, which displays the linearized texture.
> second, you could pick the value from the image into a color share
> node and pipe this through a sRGB to LIN shader (i.e. from harry
> bardak´s xsi-blog article on colorspaces) into the destination color
> port. i usually do it this way; it introduces a couple of extra nodes
> but keeps the setup rather flexible.
>
> nils
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:07 PM, Philipp Oeser wrote:
>
>> bah, that was too quick I guess:
>> as far as i can see, it is still picking the non-linearized color
>> (the gamma correction is just for the representation on monitor).
>> doesnt matter if you turn it on or off, the values are the same.
>> what I want is different (linearized) values
>>
>> example again:
>> (1) lets assume "noIcon.pic" source is sRGB/with gamma
>> (2) in clips PPG put color profile to sRGB (this will reverse

>> gamma/linearize the texture values before render)

[Philipp Oeser]

OK, one more time :)
still colorpicking, this time back in the renderregion:

this is just a suggestion for workflow:

wouldnt it make sense to have an option that in case you have a gamma
corrected renderregion that the actually picked color values are not
taken straight from the buffer but instead are reverse gamma corrected?

Scenario is still that of matching colors, i have have everything set up
to work linear and then want to match a color (of a constant material
e.g.) to something already rendered in the region.
Currently this is only possible by switching off gammacorrection for the
renderregion in preferences, render again, pick color and reactivate
gammacorrection for the renderregion in preferences.
Again: this is no big deal, but to me it would make more sense to have
it this way (at least as an option) and would make workflow more pleasant.

What do you think?

Philipp Oeser schrieb:

---

[Halfdan Ingvarsson]

It's a good idea and would be worth looking into.

Now, gamma correction is easily invertible, although you'd still get errors, especially towards the lower end of the scale, but not LUTs. 3D LUTs even more so.

So the only way to do this, and still be correct, is to keep two copies of the framebuffer, one corrected (shown), the other one not (used for picking).

- ˝

-----Original Message-----
From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of Philipp Oeser
Sent: 27-Nov-2008 10:03
To: X...@Softimage.COM
Subject: Re: linear workflow: color picking

OK, one more time :)
still colorpicking, this time back in the renderregion:

this is just a suggestion for workflow:

wouldnt it make sense to have an option that in case you have a gamma corrected renderregion that the actually picked color values are not taken straight from the buffer but instead are reverse gamma corrected?

Scenario is still that of matching colors, i have have everything set up to work linear and then want to match a color (of a constant material
e.g.) to something already rendered in the region.
Currently this is only possible by switching off gammacorrection for the renderregion in preferences, render again, pick color and reactivate gammacorrection for the renderregion in preferences.
Again: this is no big deal, but to me it would make more sense to have it this way (at least as an option) and would make workflow more pleasant.

What do you think?

---

[Andreas Bystrom]

When working in linear mode I tend to use a color_correction node that
i feed into my shader, I simply set the gamma in the CC node to 0.45
and then I can pick any color I want and I know that the output is
linear. It does clutter up the rendertree having an extra node in
there but it's not too bad.

[Philipp Oeser]

@Andreas: yes, but if I understand you right you're picking in the
rendertree preview (that does work if you only want to pick straight
from the texture) but when you're picking from a corrected region its
(a) with gamma again and (b) doesnt take lighting into account.

@Halfdan: thanx for listening; 2 buffers make sense... I hope this makes
it in someday...

Greetz
Philipp

Andreas Bystrom schrieb:

--

Philipp Oeser
Software Engineer

*LIGA_01 | MÜNCHEN

strictly forbidden.

[Philipp Oeser]

Did I say _one_ more?
Here is another one (and another):

- if you DO linearize your textures but gamma correct the rendertree
previews and pick from there, again it seems like you're picking
straight from the buffer (_not_ the same value)
- if you want to pick from anywhere in the viewport it's worse (you're
stuck): no way to pick the "right" color here [you'd have to use
color_savestate, colorcorrect that and plug that into the node where you
actually wanted to choose a color]

This all comes down to what Halfdan said: all the UI correction
[rendertree previews/renderregion/widgets/shaderballs] and even the UI
in general would have to be present in two buffers if you also want to
pick colors anywhere in the interface... dont know how feasible this is,
though...

didnt want to open pandoras box here, just trying to get a workflow
down... - I'd be happy with that working in the renderregion as a
starting point -
btw.: how do the others handle this? (I remember that MAX had something
for gamma in preferences which afaik affectd the whole interface - dont
know about colorpicking though)

Philipp

Halfdan Ingvarsson schrieb:

--

Philipp Oeser
Software Engineer

*LIGA_01 | MÜNCHEN

strictly forbidden.

[Tim Leydecker]

In Maya, you can specify a preview image in the lensshader for
a camera, gives you a speedy way of tuning the lensshader to
settings that fit your scene´s illumination. Obviously works
best when using a 32bit float image rendered linear, saved
and specified as the preview image.

Inspired by that, you could have two cameras, one with a
lenshader and one without a lensshader, now if you draw
a region you´ll be able to pick colors from something
like a colorchart image either withtonemapping or without it.

Or maybe set up an FXtree viewport with/without a gamma node?

Cheers

tim

[Jason Brynford-Jones]

http://www.softimage.com/downloads/

The first Autodesk release of XSI, with increased stability and over a
hundred fixes.

Chinny

[Michael]

Am Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 22:31:58 schrieb Jason Brynford-Jones:
> The first Autodesk release of XSI, with increased stability and over a
> hundred fixes.

Welcome to my computer, Autodesk :)

Thanks for the release! Looks like lots of bugs got squashed!

Michael

[Matt]

Is there a list of bug fixes and updates out?

Matt

CG artist
The Embassy Visual Effects

[Stephen Blair]

Yes, there is a link is on the download page.

 

http://www.softimage.com/downloads/lists/7_01/XSIv701_Fixed.txt

 

 

// Steve Blair
// Product Support Manager – Softimage

 

---

[Bradley Gabe]

Yup, found it on the downloads page:

http://www.softimage.com/downloads/lists/7_01/XSIv701_Fixed.txt

[Thomas Helzle]

Thanks a ton for the update! That list looks like a lot of work!

Any news from Mental Images on satellite rendering? Is it expected to work anytime soon?

And big thanks as well for getting the download page up and running again, including the older version stuff!!!

BTW. Finally my licensing problems were solved as well (after resending the issue it only took a day), so I'm back to being a rather happy customer ;-)

Best regards,

Thomas Helzle

[Thomas Helzle]

One question about the new License Agreement:
It states that I have no right to sell my license. This sounds like what I heard about Autodesk policy, but under german law this isn't possible to forbid AFAIK.

So if for instance I want to sell my second XSI 7 Essentials license which is bound to a separate dongle - is that possible?

Thanks,

Thomas Helzle

[Malcolm Zaloon]

On download page say 418Mb on win64 version, but file have 500.3Mb...

is this right?

[Thomas Helzle]

It is 500 MB here and works.

Cheers,

Thomas Helzle

[Schoenberger]

>It states that I have no right to sell my license. This sounds like what I heard about Autodesk policy,

>but under german law this isn't possible to forbid AFAIK.

I have not read it yet, but I think the Autodesk aggreement has some kind of "severability clause" ("salvatorische klausel").

So if it is forbit in the german law, then you can ignore that part of the aggreement.

In the oooold days if you wanted to sell a license, you had to pay "license transfer costs" to softimage.

 

 

And Satellite rendering, hmm, almost forgot about this bug... Really bad if it does not work.

 

 

Holger Schönberger
technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

 

---

From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of Thomas Helzle
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 1:06 AM

To: X...@Softimage.COM
Subject: Re: XSI 7.01 released

[Justin Wasilenko]

Nice job on the release, seemed to fix a very annoying bug when selecting a mesh, it would always display the last texture that was loaded in the texture editor even if the editor was closed. But did anyone else get this new splash screen on startup?

 

 

Justin Wasilenko

http://www.waz.ca

 

 

[dyon d]

@Justin
did anyone ping FTC?
Dark times ahead

[Frank Lenhard]

nice one ;) though i am actually very glad that soft JUST fixed bugs
and did not try to put new ones in ;)

should they save new features for the .5 release. i care for a more
stable work environment now.

ciao
franky

Friday, November 28, 2008, 8:22:25 PM, you wrote:

JW> Nice job on the release, seemed to fix a very annoying bug when selecting a
JW> mesh, it would always display the last texture that was loaded in the
JW> texture editor even if the editor was closed. But did anyone else get this
JW> new splash screen on startup?

JW>

JW> SplashLogoXSI.jpg

JW>

JW> Justin Wasilenko

JW> <http://www.waz.ca/> http://www.waz.ca

JW>

JW>

JW>

JW> From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of
JW> Schoenberger
JW> Sent: November 28, 2008 2:39 AM
JW> To: X...@Softimage.COM
JW> Subject: RE: XSI 7.01 released

JW>

>>It states that I have no right to sell my license. This sounds like what I

JW> heard about Autodesk policy,

>>but under german law this isn't possible to forbid AFAIK.

JW> I have not read it yet, but I think the Autodesk aggreement has some kind of
JW> "severability clause" ("salvatorische klausel").

JW> So if it is forbit in the german law, then you can ignore that part of the
JW> aggreement.

JW> In the oooold days if you wanted to sell a license, you had to pay "license
JW> transfer costs" to softimage.

JW>

JW>

JW> And Satellite rendering, hmm, almost forgot about this bug... Really bad if
JW> it does not work.

JW>

JW>

JW> Holger Schönberger
JW> technical director
JW> The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

JW>

JW>

JW> _____

JW> From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of
JW> Thomas Helzle
JW> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 1:06 AM
JW> To: X...@Softimage.COM
JW> Subject: Re: XSI 7.01 released

JW> One question about the new License Agreement:
JW> It states that I have no right to sell my license. This sounds like what I
JW> heard about Autodesk policy, but under german law this isn't possible to
JW> forbid AFAIK.

JW> So if for instance I want to sell my second XSI 7 Essentials license which
JW> is bound to a separate dongle - is that possible?

JW> Thanks,

JW> Thomas Helzle

JW> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Thomas Helzle <thomas...@gmail.com>
JW> wrote:

JW> Thanks a ton for the update! That list looks like a lot of work!

JW> Any news from Mental Images on satellite rendering? Is it expected to work
JW> anytime soon?

JW> And big thanks as well for getting the download page up and running again,
JW> including the older version stuff!!!

JW> BTW. Finally my licensing problems were solved as well (after resending the
JW> issue it only took a day), so I'm back to being a rather happy customer ;-)

JW> Best regards,

JW> Thomas Helzle

JW>

[James G. Jones]

I hope AD will show some foresight and give Softimage the additional
resources they need to really make headway against the bugs. All the issues
I've reported over the past year are still alive and kicking in 7.01.
(Disappointed only; I am NOT complaining -- I fully understand why bug fixes
have to be prioritized.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Lenhard" <fra...@ixdream.com>
To: "Justin Wasilenko" <X...@Softimage.COM>
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: Re[2]: XSI 7.01 released

> nice one ;) though i am actually very glad that soft JUST fixed bugs
> and did not try to put new ones in ;)
>
> should they save new features for the .5 release. i care for a more
> stable work environment now.
>
> ciao
> franky
>
>
> Friday, November 28, 2008, 8:22:25 PM, you wrote:
>
> JW> Nice job on the release, seemed to fix a very annoying bug when
selecting a
> JW> mesh, it would always display the last texture that was loaded in the
> JW> texture editor even if the editor was closed. But did anyone else get
this
> JW> new splash screen on startup?
>
> JW>
>
> JW> SplashLogoXSI.jpg
>
> JW>
>
> JW> Justin Wasilenko
>
> JW> <http://www.waz.ca/> http://www.waz.ca
>
>

---