Vegetarianism and B12 deficiency (was Re: Organic GE)
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >| The difference is that the vast majority of veggies condemn the violent
| >| ones. The same, I suspect, can't be said of the BNP.
| >
| >Oh I'm sure they too pay lip-service to the public by condemning the
activities
| >of Combat-14, whilst adding qualifiers to their statements that they
| >'understand' why they carry out these acts and similar disingenuous
waffle. Not
| >really much different from the ALF acting as an apologist mouth-piece for
| >the latest attack on Muslim culture whilst stating that they 'understand'
| >why these attacks have been carried out.
| >
| > BNP -> ALF
|
| To an extent, I'd agree with you that the BNP and ALF are pretty much
| equal - although I find the ALF perhaps marginally less distasteful.
| However, you're comments above imply that you think veggies = ALF - this
| is patently not the case.
I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
are veggies.
achildofmuvernature
>--
> CamARAB
> http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm
the alf doesn't actually exist it means animal liberation frontline.
it is an adjective.
those who take direct action. it is not a club or political party.
the bnp are rascists who believe that the community would benefit from
pograms.
they are backed by the likes of the daily telegraph, right wing tory
idiots etc, divide and rule remember!
those freeing animals from torture really do not deserve to be
catogerised as rascists, or governemnt collaberators, unlike the bnp.
the bnp have to realise that playing the war games of the mainstream
system benefits no-one eccept the elite.
i'm trying to elucidate here, its not a game or sport, the bnp really
frighten people. they try and vampire people's energy.
the alf free sentient beings from extreme fear and torture.
they are the opposite basically!
i'm not interested in accusations of insanity saying all this, i'm
just breaking through the 'game' to reveal the reality. i know what
its like on the street, i know what its like to be vampired. i now
have a web connection and can fight back right into your comfortable
homes tory twats.
take it easy
jim
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>are veggies.
>
Statistically, most child molesters and murderers are quite probably
meat eaters.
And your point is...?
Mike
--
http://www.urban75.com/ UK e-zine - over 3 million hits!
"the finest & best designed independent site in Britain" Dly Telegraph
"the most relevant, innovative site of the nineties" Internet Magazine
to e-mail me, it's : m i k e (*at*) u r b a n 7 5 (*dot*) c o m
Richard Vialls
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>| > BNP -> ALF
>|
>| To an extent, I'd agree with you that the BNP and ALF are pretty much
>| equal - although I find the ALF perhaps marginally less distasteful.
>| However, you're comments above imply that you think veggies = ALF - this
>| is patently not the case.
>
>I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
>are veggies.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
members of the ALF, as you were implying.
Richard Vialls (please replace nospam with demon for email & WWW)
Black Cat Electronics - contract electronics design
Bodrwyn, Cerrigceinwen, Bodorgan, Phone: +44(0)1407 720717
Anglesey, LL62 5EF, UK. Email: rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk
Web: http://www.blakcat.nospam.co.uk
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >
| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
| >are veggies.
| >
| Many of whom are vegans. So what?
|
| Statistically, most child molesters and murderers are quite probably
| meat eaters.
However, eating meat is not a key credential to child molesting, being a
veggie IS a key credential to being in ALF.
|
| And your point is...?
I'd have thought it obvious. One is a key credential, the other is a statistical
co-incidence.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
|
| the alf doesn't actually exist it means animal liberation frontline.
| it is an adjective.
| those who take direct action. it is not a club or political party.
Oh really? So who was it who released all those mink, boasted of having
firebombed halal butchers in their publications? The Animal Liberation
Front are very real and their Scottish branch even have a web site.
|
| the bnp are rascists who believe that the community would benefit from
| pograms.
Nope ..that's 'benefit from having neigbour choice forced on them through
violent means'
..and they ALF are fascist who believe the community would benefit from
having lifestyle choices forced on them through violence.
Not much different, really..
| those freeing animals from torture really do not deserve to be
| catogerised as rascists, or governemnt collaberators, unlike the bnp.
They are fascists. They attack ethnic minorities because they don't like
their cultural practises.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >| > BNP -> ALF
| >|
| >| To an extent, I'd agree with you that the BNP and ALF are pretty much
| >| equal - although I find the ALF perhaps marginally less distasteful.
| >| However, you're comments above imply that you think veggies = ALF - this
| >| is patently not the case.
| >
| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
| >are veggies.
|
| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
achildofmuvernature
>achildofmuvernature <mong...@gn.apc.org> wrote:
>> the alf doesn't actually exist it means animal liberation frontline.
>> it is an adjective.
>Horseshit. The ALF (Animal Liberation Front) is an active organisation
>in the UK. In recent years members have firebombed stores, beaten up
>scientists, attached bombs to vehicles and released mink into the
>environment. And this is a small sample of the stupidity that they
>represent.
In the name of clarity...
you ain't read wot i wrote geezaz.
it is autonomus individuals who take direct action to relieve animal
suffering. ie they are the 'frontline' of direct action. obviously i'm
not saying that such actions don't exist. what i am saying is that it
is not a linked organisation with heirarchies etc. unlike the BNP.
Actions are listed on the ALF website yes, but the alf website does
not 'control' actions.
i saw a picture of two people holding releasesd chickens on the animal
rights resourses website. the compassion in their eyes is so deep.
or do we believe the reverends and colonals spouting mainstream
nonsense?
jim
>--
Dead Mangled Pigeon
achildofmuvernature wrote in message <6vctqg$2vn$1...@news.gn.apc.org>...
[crunch]
>i saw a picture of two people holding releasesd chickens on the animal
>rights resourses website. the compassion in their eyes is so deep.
>
Pass the sick-bag, Alice.
JPC
The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com says...
>What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
>proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>
>I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
What about the snails eating?
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
| fil...@firthcom.demon.co.uk (Steve Firth) wrote:
|
| >achildofmuvernature <mong...@gn.apc.org> wrote:
|
| >> the alf doesn't actually exist it means animal liberation frontline.
| >> it is an adjective.
|
| >Horseshit. The ALF (Animal Liberation Front) is an active organisation
| >in the UK. In recent years members have firebombed stores, beaten up
| >scientists, attached bombs to vehicles and released mink into the
| >environment. And this is a small sample of the stupidity that they
| >represent.
|
| In the name of clarity...
| you ain't read wot i wrote geezaz.
Oh but he did, as did I.
| it is autonomus individuals who take direct action to relieve animal
| suffering. ie they are the 'frontline' of direct action.
Just like Combat18.
| obviously i'm
| not saying that such actions don't exist. what i am saying is that it
| is not a linked organisation with heirarchies etc. unlike the BNP.
Of course it is...unless your denying there's a link between the BNP and
its 'frontline' - as you put it - Combat18?
| Actions are listed on the ALF website yes, but the alf website does
| not 'control' actions.
So? It's no different from BNP/Combat 18 - its just a 'front' for its
members but tries to pretend it has no connection.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
(JPC) wrote:
Meat-eating. Frogs legs too. And foie gras.
Or are you asking how many snails - veggies- are members of ALF?
Richard Vialls
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
>| >are veggies.
>|
>| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
>| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
>
>The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
>What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
>proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>
>I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.
If you want to make the case, you need to try looking at the percentage
of vegetarians involved in violent acts of one sort or another and
comparing that with the proportion of omnivores involved in violent acts
of one sort or another. I'd suggest that the latter proportion is
unlikely to be any smaller (and I'd predict probably larger).
achildofmuvernature
>[crunch]
>Pass the sick-bag, Alice.
really, ver very cool eyess. compassion is an amazing thing.
achildofmuvernature
well all i know is that from my personal experience,
being tortured is no fun for me at all, whether or not some mad
scientist thinks it beneficial.
i have felt extreme anger, not surprisingly towards these doctors and
scientists that proclaim some truth or other.
i channel that anger, say here and now, into trying to break through
to those who's life experiences give then no personnel experience of
torture, rascism, alienation etc etc.
again the reality is that people relieving animal suffering (done by
those who want to make money) on the frontline are probably doing
'gods work', accumulationg good karma, wheras, the bnp, combat 18 or
whatever are rascist drongos.
sorry if this isn't quite what you read in the mail, but then its good
sometimes to turn all your perceptions on their heads.
again read the bible reverend. upturn those tables in the temple!
jim
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
| >| >are veggies.
| >|
| >| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
| >| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
| >
| >The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
| >What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
| >proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
| >
| >I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
|
| Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
| that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.
It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
the few who align themselves with Combat 18?
|
| If you want to make the case, you need to try looking at the percentage
| of vegetarians involved in violent acts of one sort or another and
| comparing that with the proportion of omnivores involved in violent acts
| of one sort or another.
Far too complicated and vague in its definitions. You've already conceded
that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
and mob violence than meat eaters. Now all we need to know is why.
Richard Vialls
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>| >| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
>| >| >are veggies.
>| >|
>| >| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
>| >| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
>| >
>| >The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
>| >What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
>| >proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>| >
>| >I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
>|
>| Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
>| that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.
>
>It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
>and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
>to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
>the few who align themselves with Combat 18?
I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP. As such, you are just
suggesting what you want to believe and expecting me to argue against
it. You have absolutely no case that vegetarians are more likely to be
supporters of the ALF than omnivores are to be supporters of the BNP.
Even if you did have such evidence, this would not be admissable as
evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores. To support a
violent act because you believe it will make the world a better place is
entirely different from actually perpetrating that act. Or would you
class everyone who supports military action in places like Kosovo as
violent?
>| If you want to make the case, you need to try looking at the percentage
>| of vegetarians involved in violent acts of one sort or another and
>| comparing that with the proportion of omnivores involved in violent acts
>| of one sort or another.
>
>Far too complicated and vague in its definitions. You've already conceded
>that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
>which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
>It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
>and mob violence than meat eaters.
You haven't provided a shred of evidence for this assertion yet.
> Now all we need to know is why.
What I want to know is why you are so keen to paint vegetarians (who
are, in my experience, more likely to be pacifists than omnivores) as
violent extremists. What is your motive for this? What have you really
got against vegetarians - or are you just deliberately trolling?
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >| >| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of
the ALF
| >| >| >are veggies.
| >| >|
| >| >| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
| >| >| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
| >| >
| >| >The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
| >| >What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
| >| >proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
| >| >
| >| >I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
| >|
| >| Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
| >| that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.
| >
| >It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
| >and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
| >to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
| >the few who align themselves with Combat 18?
|
| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
say 100. The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
But, of course, there is one key difference between the two, diet has nothing
to do with those joining Combat 18.
| Even if you did have such evidence, this would not be admissable as
| evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores.
Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence is just
as bad as carrying out the acts themselves. You appear to be arguing that
Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing for him,
thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.
| >
| >Far too complicated and vague in its definitions. You've already conceded
| >that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
| >which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
| >It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
| >and mob violence than meat eaters.
|
| You haven't provided a shred of evidence for this assertion yet.
I have indeed! You don't like it, but that is your problem, not mine.
achildofmuvernature
hypothetical nonsense
>But, of course, there is one key difference between the two, diet has nothing
>to do with those joining Combat 18.
>| Even if you did have such evidence, this would not be admissable as
>| evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores.
>Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence is just
>as bad as carrying out the acts themselves.
yes yes bbc news, blar blar blar...what about what the government gets
up to? what about east timor, millions of dead people, just so babylon
can make money. condemm this please reverend.
You appear to be arguing that
>Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing for him,
>thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.
quite 'reverend'. shall we start a debate about government sponsered
violence?
people who are into relieving the pain of sentient beings are hardly
going tobe into injuring/killing people, even if they are causing
extreme pain and suffering to thousands of animals. thats what
vivisectors do.
you get the occasional nutter, and police stitch up, and deluded
reverend for that matter. hello are you in there reverend nurse?
>| >
>| >Far too complicated and vague in its definitions. You've already conceded
>| >that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
>| >which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
>| >It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
>| >and mob violence than meat eaters.
>|
>| You haven't provided a shred of evidence for this assertion yet.
>I have indeed! You don't like it, but that is your pr
babylon is falling
jim.
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
Fascinating stuff. So the tiny, *tiny* amount of fanatics who make up
the fringe direct action group that calls itself the ALF are probably
veggie. And you think that using this microscopic sample group you can
draw conclusions as to the leanings of all veggies - even those who
choose their diet for health reasons?
Very scientific.
But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to
consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
I bet you wouldn't find many vegans or veggies amongst their ranks, so
that leaves your argument... where exactly?
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
>and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
>to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
>the few who align themselves with Combat 18?
You tell me. But as it's almost certain that more violent acts/murders
are committed by meat-eaters than vegetarians, your 'argument' is
woefully lacking.
>It would appear that vegetarians are more prepared to resort to terrorism
>and mob violence than meat eaters. Now all we need to know is why.
You really believe this?! Based on what data? How many murders have been
committed by vegetarians in the UK recently? How many Saturday night
punch ups involve veggies? Are the football hooligan 'firms' exclusive
staffed by Linda McCartney-munchin' veggies too? (Strange then that
veggie food is almost non-existent on the terraces - do they bring their
own veggie sarnies to the matches then?)
Strange how not so long ago, veggies were being portrayed as weedy and
anaemic, and now suddenly they're all wild hoodlums....
Do I detect the airing of tedious personal prejudices here?
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
>is estimated at around the 100 mark.
Eh? What exactly are you basing your 'educated guesses' on? Last I
heard, there was supposed to 'hundreds' of Combat 18 members amongst the
Chelsea home crowd alone.
And do you *really* think that your average neo-Nazi racist is less
violent and less likely yo get involved in a punch up that an ALF
member?
Remarkable.
andy t
mong...@gn.apc.org (achildofmuvernature) wrote:
>the alf doesn't actually exist
bollocks.
it means animal liberation frontline.
>it is an adjective.
Go learn your grammar. it is certainly NOT an adjective. (It also means
Animla Liberation Front.
>those who take direct action. it is not a club or political party.
It is an organisation, with spokespersons etc.
>
>the bnp are rascists who believe that the community would benefit from
>pograms.
>
>they are backed by the likes of the daily telegraph, right wing tory
>idiots etc, divide and rule remember!
>
>those freeing animals from torture really do not deserve to be
>catogerised as rascists, or governemnt collaberators, unlike the bnp.
>the bnp have to realise that playing the war games of the mainstream
>system benefits no-one eccept the elite.
The ALF have to realise that bombings, beatings and terror tactics will
earn them the respect they deserve. none.
The thuggery displayed by the ALF is most certainly akin to that displayed
by the BNP. Brutish physical vilence against people (and their property)
with whom they disagree .
>
>i'm trying to elucidate here,
Halucinate, more likely...with some success to.
its not a game or sport, the bnp really
>frighten people.
So do the ALF with their balaclavas and terror tactics.
they try and vampire people's energy.
>the alf free sentient beings from extreme fear and torture.
and beat up scientists, vandalise property and commit criminal acts.
>
>they are the opposite basically!
Bollox. they are very similar in mindless, intolerance and attitude, not to
mention lack of realistic argument
>
>i'm not interested in accusations of insanity saying all this, i'm
>just breaking through the 'game' to reveal the reality. i know what
>its like on the street, i know what its like to be vampired. i now
>have a web connection and can fight back right into your comfortable
>homes tory twats.
Could this be a class thing?
Theo the dyslexic gnome
nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
>.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>>and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
>>to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
>>the few who align themselves with Combat 18?
Talking of Combat 18, wasn't Hitler a vegitarian?
--
Dyslexic gnome
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
| The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com (Rev. Timothy N Nurse) wrote:
|
| >| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
| >| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
|
| >Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
| >is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
| >mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
| >say 100. The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
| >of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
| >say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
| >from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
| >effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
| >terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
|
| hypothetical nonsense
Nope. Statistically accurate.
| >Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence
is just
| >as bad as carrying out the acts themselves.
|
| yes yes bbc news, blar blar blar..
What has the BBC news got to do with anything under discussion??
| up to? what about east timor, millions of dead people, just so babylon
| can make money. condemm this please reverend.
OK. I condemn the Indonesian leadership's condoning and supporting the action
of its troops in East Timor...not much different from ALF there
...and it's tens of thousands, not 'millions'.
|
| You appear to be arguing that
| >Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing
for him,
| >thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.
|
|
| quite 'reverend'.
So you agree that Hitler was equally culpable, ergo ALF is equally culpable
for the attacks of Muslims and firebombings. Thank you, that was my point.
| shall we start a debate about government sponsered
| violence?
Is the government vegetarian? No? Oh well, no need then as it is
irrelevant to the matter in hand, although as a passing thought, one of the
most prominent vegetarian in the last government was Alan Clark. He too,
supported 'animal rights'. Alan Clark was also the man responsible for selling
Hawk fighters to the Indonesians - the same Hawk fighters which were used on
the East Timorese. Clark's response was that, if they weren't British subjects
he wasn't interested and would continues to sell Indonesia weapons. He was
also responsible for selling war materials to Saddam Hussein. ALan Clark is
a real compassionate man, he cares more for his dogs than foreigners.
| people who are into relieving the pain of sentient beings are hardly
| going tobe into injuring/killing people, even if they are causing
| extreme pain and suffering to thousands of animals. thats what
| vivisectors do.
This, of course, is exaggerated lies, popular amongst the lunatic element
of ALF and animal rights. Animal experiments has brought untold benifits
to not only humans, but also other animals for the treatment of a huge
number of life threatening diseases. ALF would deny children the
right to medical treatment derived from animal experiments. But then,
ALF don't care about children, their only interest is in self-promotion.
They'd rather see a child die that a lab rat endure an injection, to them
the mere lab rat is worth more than a childs life.
[Incoherent rambling deleted]
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
| >is estimated at around the 100 mark.
|
| Eh? What exactly are you basing your 'educated guesses' on? Last I
| heard, there was supposed to 'hundreds' of Combat 18 members amongst the
| Chelsea home crowd alone.
Nah. I'm talking about the hardcore, not the hangers-on who like to bask
in reflected glory. Soccer fans are not in the same league as those who
have regular chats with the likes of the UVF.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to
| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.
| I bet you wouldn't find many vegans or veggies amongst their ranks, so
| that leaves your argument... where exactly?
Still intact.
Richard Vialls
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
>| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
>
>Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
>is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
>mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
>say 100.
What convenient educated guesses. I presume you have absolutely no
evidence to back up these estimates?
>The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
>of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
>say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
>from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
>effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
>terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
All you've proved (and I wouldn't call even that a proof) is that
membership of the ALF is a higher proportion of veggies than membership
of Combat 18 is of omnivores. This says nothing about levels of violence
in the population. I'd guess you'd find it hard to find any other groups
of veggies who are violent. Whereas, I'd have no trouble finding
evidence of other violent groups amongst the population as a whole.
Come back when you have some evidence.
>| Even if you did have such evidence, this would not be admissable as
>| evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores.
>
>Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence is just
>as bad as carrying out the acts themselves. You appear to be arguing that
>Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing for him,
>thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.
No. I'm saying that there is a difference between condoning violence
because you believe (mistakenly or otherwise) that it is in the common
good and actually perpetrating violence. That makes Hitler evil because
of his complete disregard for human life, but does not make him a
violent man as such.
BTW, you still haven't answered my suggestion that, by your definitions,
everyone who supports a Nato air strike is violent.
Richard Vialls
gnome <holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> writes
>Talking of Combat 18, wasn't Hitler a vegitarian?
If one more person brings up Hitler - I'm going to SCREEAAAMMMMMMM!
Nick Iredale
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>|
>the ALF
>| >| >| >are veggies.
>| >| >|
>| >| >| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
>| >| >| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
>| >| >
>| >| >The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
>| >| >What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
>| >| >proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>| >| >
>| >| >I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
>| >|
>| >| Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
>| >| that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.
>| >
>| >and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
>| >to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
>| >the few who align themselves with Combat 18?
>|
>| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
>
>Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
>is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
>mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
>of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
>say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
>from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
>effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
>terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
>
>to do with those joining Combat 18.
>
>
>| evidence that vegetarians are more violent than omnivores.
>
>Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence is just
>as bad as carrying out the acts themselves. You appear to be arguing that
>Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing for him,
>thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.
>
>
>| >
>| >that Combat18 and ALF are similar so, there is already a commonality
>| >which makes it simpler to compare organised violence between the two groups.
>| >and mob violence than meat eaters.
>|
>
>
You are talking complete and utter bollocks! You have shown _no_
evidence of anything but your own prejudices. If you do have any where
is it to be found? - publication, article, author and date please.
The only way your argument would stand up if there were only two
organisations in existence who were prepared to use violence to pursue
their ends, and that those organisations had a monopoly on acts of
violence, which they clearly don't, as the many unorganised violent acts
carried out by individuals and groups thereof show.
I believe there have been studies in prisons of the effect of diet-
changes on violent offenders, but these focussed on excluding possible
allergens from diets and showed improvements in behaviour in some cases
as a result of the exclusion of certain specific foods (not necessarily
the same foods in each person's case either).
--
Nick Iredale
Richard Vialls
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>| But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to
>| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
>
>Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
>play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.
I'd say rather that the decision to join the ALF might play a part in
the decision over diet.
Richard Vialls
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>| The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com (Rev. Timothy N Nurse) wrote:
>|
>
>| >| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
>|
>| >Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
>| >is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
>| >mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
>| >say 100. The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
>| >of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
>| >say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
>| >from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
>| >effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
>| >terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
>|
>
>Nope. Statistically accurate.
Statistically, it proves only (subject to your dubious guestimates) that
vegetarians are more likely to be members of the ALF than a random
member of the public is to be a member of Combat 18. As I have said
already, it proves nothing statistically about the likelihood of the two
groups to be involved in violence.
>| >Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence
>is just
>| >as bad as carrying out the acts themselves.
>
>| up to? what about east timor, millions of dead people, just so babylon
>| can make money. condemm this please reverend.
>
>OK. I condemn the Indonesian leadership's condoning and supporting the action
>of its troops in East Timor...not much different from ALF there
>...and it's tens of thousands, not 'millions'.
In which case, you should also condemn the activities of BAe and the
British government in allowing arms sales to Indonesia which are used
for the above mentioned violence.
>| shall we start a debate about government sponsered
>| violence?
>
>Is the government vegetarian? No? Oh well, no need then as it is
>irrelevant to the matter in hand,
Not at all irrelevant because you cannot prove anything without
establishing that the incidence of violence for vegetarians is greater
than for the population as a whole. Thus anything which shows that the
population as a whole has a predisposition for violence is relevant to
the argument.
>although as a passing thought, one of the
>most prominent vegetarian in the last government was Alan Clark. He too,
>supported 'animal rights'. Alan Clark was also the man responsible for selling
>Hawk fighters to the Indonesians - the same Hawk fighters which were used on
>the East Timorese. Clark's response was that, if they weren't British subjects
>he wasn't interested and would continues to sell Indonesia weapons. He was
>also responsible for selling war materials to Saddam Hussein. ALan Clark is
>a real compassionate man, he cares more for his dogs than foreigners.
Yet again, you fall for the mistake of using a single case as evidence
for a trend.
Richard Vialls
<n...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>I believe there have been studies in prisons of the effect of diet-
>changes on violent offenders, but these focussed on excluding possible
>allergens from diets and showed improvements in behaviour in some cases
>as a result of the exclusion of certain specific foods (not necessarily
>the same foods in each person's case either).
If you really want to look at links between diet and violence, you
should look carefully at artificial food additives. There are plenty of
examples of food additives causing anti-social behaviour amongst
children - tartrazine springs to mind.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
| >| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
| >
| >Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of Combat 18
| >is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around the 250
| >mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
| >say 100.
|
| What convenient educated guesses. I presume you have absolutely no
| evidence to back up these estimates?
Combat 18 has been well researched in the past by various media organisations
including TV documentaries detailing their links with Northern Ireland
terrotist groups like the UFF and UVF. Their numbers of hardcore are as well
established, at around 100, as media estimates for membership of the IRA.
Similarly, the numbers involved in ALF hardcore activities have been ascertained
and has appeared in the media at various times. If you dispute those numbers,
take it up with the media, not me.
|
| >The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with claims
| >of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
| >say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
| >from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
| >effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
| >terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
|
| All you've proved (and I wouldn't call even that a proof) is that
| membership of the ALF is a higher proportion of veggies than membership
| of Combat 18 is of omnivores.
No. What I've shown is that veggies are 9 times more likely to join a
violent organisation than omnivores.
| >
| >Why not? Condoning and supporting those who do perpetrate the violence
is just
| >as bad as carrying out the acts themselves. You appear to be arguing that
| >Hitler wasn't a monster because he got other people to do the killing
for him,
| >thus was less culpable. Clearly this is false.
|
| No. I'm saying that there is a difference between condoning violence
| because you believe (mistakenly or otherwise) that it is in the common
| good and actually perpetrating violence. That makes Hitler evil because
| of his complete disregard for human life, but does not make him a
| violent man as such.
Erm no. Those two don't follow. Hitler believed that the erradication of Jews
was for the common good - that makes him just as culpable as those he ordered
to do the killing. In my book, I see no difference between the two. The
culpability is equally shared - the paymaster is no less culpable of a murder
than the hit man.
|
| BTW, you still haven't answered my suggestion that, by your definitions,
| everyone who supports a Nato air strike is violent.
That's because it is a contrived red herring of the sort Duhg would float.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
| >
| You are talking complete and utter bollocks! You have shown _no_
| evidence of anything but your own prejudices. If you do have any where
| is it to be found? - publication, article, author and date please.
I believe Peter Brooks posted about 170 of them. Feel free to
consult them in your library.
| I believe there have been studies in prisons of the effect of diet-
| changes on violent offenders, but these focussed on excluding possible
| allergens from diets and showed improvements in behaviour in some cases
| as a result of the exclusion of certain specific foods (not necessarily
| the same foods in each person's case either).
Fascinating - but we aren't discussing allergens.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >| But if you wish to pursue this dubious theme, perhaps you might like to
| >| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
| >
| >Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
| >play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.
|
| I'd say rather that the decision to join the ALF might play a part in
| the decision over diet.
I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
to rationalise one's diet choice.
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
>
>Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
>play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.
So what? Still doesn't prove a thing between your ludicrous supposed
link between a veggie diet and a predilection for violence.
Most BNP-ers are meat eaters. So are most criminals. So are most child
molesters. So is most of the UK.
So what?
Or are you *really* so wildly unscientific as to base your assertions on
the actions of a tiny, *tiny* group of fanatics?
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>| Eh? What exactly are you basing your 'educated guesses' on? Last I
>| heard, there was supposed to 'hundreds' of Combat 18 members amongst the
>| Chelsea home crowd alone.
>
>Nah. I'm talking about the hardcore, not the hangers-on who like to bask
>in reflected glory.
How exactly do you know how many make up the 'hardcore' and how many
'hangers on' there are supposed to be?
You keep throwing around these figures for the supposed membership of
the ALF and Combat 18, yet seem strangely reluctant to name your sources
for these figures.
Richard Vialls
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
>watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
>them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
>to rationalise one's diet choice.
There is no need for mob violence etc. in order to rationalise the
decision to become a vegetarian/vegan. It's just a matter of personal
choice based on personal beliefs/opinions. There are, of course, a small
number of individuals who become extremists - but then you don't need to
be veggie to be an extremist.
Which brings me back to a point which you've yet to answer - namely why
are you so keen to spread this strange idea that vegetarians are
inherently more likely to be violent? Your motivation for this crusade
(which you seem to have taken over from Peter Brooks) is a little
obscure - or is it all just a troll?
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >In article <9oAz7MA+...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
| ><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
|
| >| Eh? What exactly are you basing your 'educated guesses' on? Last I
| >| heard, there was supposed to 'hundreds' of Combat 18 members amongst the
| >| Chelsea home crowd alone.
| >
| >Nah. I'm talking about the hardcore, not the hangers-on who like to bask
| >in reflected glory.
|
| How exactly do you know how many make up the 'hardcore' and how many
| 'hangers on' there are supposed to be?
Hardcore are those who have documented links with real terrorist groups
like UFF and UVA in Ireland.
Hope this helps.
Richard Vialls
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>|
>| 'hangers on' there are supposed to be?
>
>Hardcore are those who have documented links with real terrorist groups
>like UFF and UVA in Ireland.
>
>Hope this helps.
Not at all, as you still haven't given any accurate indication of how
many people this is.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
|
| >I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
| >watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
| >them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
| >to rationalise one's diet choice.
|
| There is no need for mob violence etc. in order to rationalise the
| decision to become a vegetarian/vegan.
Of course not, however there are those who will and end up joining the
ALF to that end. There's no such parallel for those omnivores who join
Combat 18, their diet is just not a factor in their choice, it's the colour
of their neighbour's skin. But I've said all this before, why are you going
round in circles again?
| Which brings me back to a point which you've yet to answer - namely why
| are you so keen to spread this strange idea that vegetarians are
| inherently more likely to be violent?
Who says I'm keen? I made a simple observation and you leapt in with a
challenge to produce evidence and numbers, so I did. How is this being 'keen'
to spread anything when all I am doing is responding to your requests? This
is all of your making, don't blame me for it!
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
>watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
>them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
>to rationalise one's diet choice.
Strange then, that the millions and millions of vegetarians world-wide
don't seem to share this supposedly pre-destined desire for mob
violence, isn't it?
But if you think focussing on the microscopically small subset of
fanatics that make up the ALF is doing your argument any good, don't let
me stop you.
Just don't expect to gain any credibility in the process.
Mike
PS remind me: how many murders and violent crimes are committed by meat
eaters every year in the UK? And how many by veggies?
Ian G Batten
In article <r4v2PDAC...@urban75.demon.co.uk>,
mike <mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> PS remind me: how many murders and violent crimes are committed by meat
> eaters every year in the UK? And how many by veggies?
I have no idea, and nor, I suspect, do you. However, if you want
ludicrous, fatuous and ill-considered comparisons, I'd say that the meat
eaters can lay claim to Stalin and you can have Hitler. Now, wasn't
that a useful debate?
ian
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mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>
>challenge to produce evidence and numbers,
>so I did.
>
your claims about the number of members of both Combat18 and the ALF and
what their diets are?
Mike
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>|
>| 'hangers on' there are supposed to be?
>
>Hardcore are those who have documented links with real terrorist groups
>like UFF and UVA in Ireland.
Ah. So you reckon that just being racist, violent and into football
isn't enough to get you into Combat18, and only those with 'documented
links with terrorists' can be classed as the 'hardcore'?
Ignoring for the moment your entirely arbitrary definition of
'hardcore', perhaps you could produce some sources for these 'documented
links', particularly in relation to the numbers of these hardcore types
and their hangers on?
I trust you also have some similar definitions and figures for the ALF?
>
>Hope this helps.
Not really. You've just made up your own definition of 'hardcore' in
relation to football, so it's pretty meaningless.
mike
<I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> writes
>
>In article <r4v2PDAC...@urban75.demon.co.uk>,
>mike <mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> PS remind me: how many murders and violent crimes are committed by meat
>> eaters every year in the UK? And how many by veggies?
>
>I have no idea, and nor, I suspect, do you. However, if you want
>ludicrous, fatuous and ill-considered comparisons, I'd say that the meat
>eaters can lay claim to Stalin and you can have Hitler. Now, wasn't
>that a useful debate?
And apart from Hitler, how many other veggie mass-murderers can you
cite? One?
And meat eating ones....? How many do you want?
But you're quite right of course, it is indeed a totally fatuous
comparison, but in the face of Nits' ludicrous premise about veggie
violence it almost begins to seem sensible.
Nick Iredale
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>|
>|
>| >watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
>| >them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
>| >to rationalise one's diet choice.
>|
>| decision to become a vegetarian/vegan.
>
>Of course not, however there are those who will and end up joining the
>ALF to that end. There's no such parallel for those omnivores who join
>Combat 18, their diet is just not a factor in their choice, it's the colour
>of their neighbour's skin.
The colour of their neighbours skin is not a factor in that choice at
all, their bigoted attitude to it is.
--
Nick Iredale Leeds
Chainsaw sculpture - Wooden books - Pictures
http://www.square-sun.demon.co.uk
Nick Iredale
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
><rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
>| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>|
>| >| consider the number of meat eating racists and football hooligans?
>| >
>| >Yes, but there's no direct link between diet and racism, whereas diet will
>| >play a big part in the decision to join the ALF.
>|
>| the decision over diet.
>
>watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
>them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
>to rationalise one's diet choice.
Are you serious?
achildofmuvernature
>In article <FreR7DAO...@thopkins.demon.co.uk>, Theo the dyslexic
>gnome <holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Talking of Combat 18, wasn't Hitler a vegitarian?
>If one more person brings up Hitler - I'm going to SCREEAAAMMMMMMM!
>Richard Vialls (please replace nospam with demon for email & WWW)
>Black Cat Electronics - contract electronics design
>Bodrwyn, Cerrigceinwen, Bodorgan, Phone: +44(0)1407 720717
>Anglesey, LL62 5EF, UK. Email: rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk
> Web: http://www.blakcat.nospam.co.uk
look kids, your falling into the 'reverends' game. the alf and combat
18 are very very different.
difficult to see perhaps from cosy living room. but look at it this
way.
would an alf peson attack a homeless person no
would combat 18/fascist? quite likely.
mathatma gandi was a vegetarian.
which church do belong to 'reverend'
andy t
mong...@gn.apc.org (achildofmuvernature) wrote:
>quite 'reverend'. shall we start a debate about government sponsered
>violence?
Not on this ng, matey
>people who are into relieving the pain of sentient beings are hardly
>going tobe into injuring/killing people, even if they are causing
>extreme pain and suffering to thousands of animals. thats what
>vivisectors do.
Please explain the bombings and beatings by your lot who are interesetde in
"relieving the pain of sentient beings".
>you get the occasional nutter, and police stitch up, and deluded
>reverend for that matter.
you sure do and the ara/alf mob seem to have more than their fare share.
andy t
>And do you *really* think that your average neo-Nazi racist is less
>violent and less likely yo get involved in a punch up that an ALF
>member?
certainly less likely to commit arson and bombings, it seems.
Both seem equally adpt at spouting out clap-trap literature, tho.
MIke Warren
> But you're quite right of course, it is indeed a totally fatuous
> comparison, but in the face of Nits' ludicrous premise about veggie
> violence it almost begins to seem sensible.
>
> Mike
>
Im confused. (yeah yeah..I know;)Earlier this year I remember Peter
Brookes arguing that veggies tended to violent acts and Nitty was
arguing AGAINST him.....maybe Peter managed to make him change his
mind?. Its a mystery isnt it;).
Anyway its quite obvious that Veggies are no more prone to violence
than meat-eaters. I bet John Hartson isnt veggie!.
Mike Warren.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >
| >I would suggest that the diet comes first, frequently at an early age, after
| >watching little lambs gamboling in the field and then thinking about eating
| >them. The move to mob violence and wider issues follows later as one attempts
| >to rationalise one's diet choice.
|
| Strange then, that the millions and millions of vegetarians world-wide
| don't seem to share this supposedly pre-destined desire for mob
| violence, isn't it?
What? You mean like that noted vegetarian, Adolph Hitler? Or the cattle truck
chasers down the channel ports over the last few years?
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >|
| >| How exactly do you know how many make up the 'hardcore' and how many
| >| 'hangers on' there are supposed to be?
| >
| >Hardcore are those who have documented links with real terrorist groups
| >like UFF and UVA in Ireland.
| >
| >Hope this helps.
|
| Not at all, as you still haven't given any accurate indication of how
| many people this is.
I already have. Around 100 to 150 as widely reported in the media.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
| In article <8IazTKAU...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike <mike@urb-
| nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> writes
| >In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| >.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >
| >>It is certainly an indicator of who is more prepared to rally to a violent
| >>and extremist cause, be it Combat 18 or ALF. COuld the diet have something
| >>to do with those flocking to ALF? Does the diet have anything to do with
| >>the few who align themselves with Combat 18?
|
| Talking of Combat 18, wasn't Hitler a vegitarian?
Indeed, as is Alan Clark. Other 'noted' vegetarians include Saddam Hussein,
the late Ayatollah Khomeni and Gen Pinnochet in Chile. Ghandi is the
exception to the trend.
Veggies like to play down Hitler's vegetarianism by pretending that he had
some ailment which prevented him eating meat, but you only have to look at
some of the edicts he put out regarding the treatment of animals and the
management of the countryside. The Nazi Party were the first green party. Is
it a spooky co-incidence that the country in which the Greens are most
prominent is the one where the Nazis once ruled?
There was a story about the weekly banquets Hitler held for his honoured
'friends' in which only vegetarian food was served.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <6vg5im$b3r$1...@ftel.ftel.co.uk>, Ian G Batten
| <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> writes
| >
| >In article <r4v2PDAC...@urban75.demon.co.uk>,
| >mike <mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| >> PS remind me: how many murders and violent crimes are committed by meat
| >> eaters every year in the UK? And how many by veggies?
| >
| >I have no idea, and nor, I suspect, do you. However, if you want
| >ludicrous, fatuous and ill-considered comparisons, I'd say that the meat
| >eaters can lay claim to Stalin and you can have Hitler. Now, wasn't
| >that a useful debate?
|
| And apart from Hitler, how many other veggie mass-murderers can you
| cite? One?
Saddam Hussein, General Pinnochet...oops, that's two. Did I mention Khomeni?
Does Alan Clark count as a mass-murderer? He was responsible for thousands
of deaths in East Timor. Peter Sutcliff was a veggie. Don't think Fred
West was, though.
| And meat eating ones....? How many do you want?
Well, since there's a 10:1 population advantage for omni's you'd probably
need 50 just to match statistically. Of course if you want a simple body
count on the grand scale, there's no way omni's can match the veggie record
1/10th of the population kills as many as the other 90%.
achildofmuvernature
>In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
>.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>>| >I would suggest that the vast majority, if not all, the members of the ALF
>>| >are veggies.
>>|
>>| Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of veggies are
>>| members of the ALF, as you were implying.
>>
>>The suggestion being made is that vegetarianism leads towards violence.
>>What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
>>proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>>
>>I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
>Whether this is the case or not, it goes precisely zilch towards proving
>that a vegetarian diet leads to more violence than an ominvorous one.
>If you want to make the case, you need to try looking at the percentage
>of vegetarians involved in violent acts of one sort or another and
>comparing that with the proportion of omnivores involved in violent acts
>of one sort or another. I'd suggest that the latter proportion is
>unlikely to be any smaller (and I'd predict probably larger).
>Richard Vialls (please replace nospam with demon for email & WWW)
>Black Cat Electronics - contract electronics design
>Bodrwyn, Cerrigceinwen, Bodorgan, Phone: +44(0)1407 720717
>Anglesey, LL62 5EF, UK. Email: rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk
> Web: http://www.blakcat.nospam.co.uk
if you are vegan, you are usually more aware of where you food is
from. The Rastafarians have a word, ital, meaning from a good place.
most meat is not from this place. to eat it you must close off from
the treatment of the animal, otherwise you would not be enjoying your
food, unless you are a sadist.
which i presume you are not.
Church Christians believe that they have a god given right to eat meat
whatever its source.
however there is no escape from karma, what you do to others, you also
do to yourself.
peace jim.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >In article <6vdodv$hg3$1...@news.gn.apc.org>, mong...@gn.apc.org wrote:
| >
| >| The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com (Rev. Timothy N Nurse) wrote:
| >|
| >
| >| >| I suspect that you, like me, have absolutely no idea how many
| >| >| vegetarians and omnivores support the ALF and BNP.
| >|
| >| >Well, lets take an educated guess, shall we? Hardcore membership of
Combat 18
| >| >is estimated at around the 100 mark. Membership of the ALF is around
the 250
| >| >mark but the hardcore element is probably half that - lets be generous and
| >| >say 100. The number of vegetarians in the UK is widely disputed with
claims
| >| >of between 4 to 10% of the population made. Let's be generous again and
| >| >say 10%. So, from 6 million veggies, we get 100 hardcore activists, whilst
| >| >from 56 million omnis, we also get 100 hardcore activists which means, in
| >| >effect, a veggie is 9 times more likely to be involved mob violence and
| >| >terrorism than an omni. There, that wasn't hard.
| >|
| >| hypothetical nonsense
| >
| >Nope. Statistically accurate.
|
| Statistically, it proves only (subject to your dubious guestimates) that
| vegetarians are more likely to be members of the ALF than a random
| member of the public is to be a member of Combat 18.
Wrong. Statistically it shows that vegetarians are more likely to be
members of a violent organisation like the ALF than omnivores are likely to
be members of a violent organisation like Combat 18.
| already, it proves nothing statistically about the likelihood of the two
| groups to be involved in violence.
Oh? Are you claiming that neither Combat 18 nor ALF include violence amongst
its tactics? So what do people joining these organisations expect from them?
Tea and cucumber sandwiches on the lawn?
| >| up to? what about east timor, millions of dead people, just so babylon
| >| can make money. condemm this please reverend.
| >
| >OK. I condemn the Indonesian leadership's condoning and supporting the
action
| >of its troops in East Timor...not much different from ALF there
| >...and it's tens of thousands, not 'millions'.
|
| In which case, you should also condemn the activities of BAe and the
| British government in allowing arms sales to Indonesia which are used
| for the above mentioned violence.
Indeed. The responsible party was Alan Clark, the Conservative arms procurement
minister. Alan Clark is a vegetarian and animal rights supporter.
| >although as a passing thought, one of the
| >most prominent vegetarian in the last government was Alan Clark. He too,
| >supported 'animal rights'. Alan Clark was also the man responsible for
selling
| >Hawk fighters to the Indonesians - the same Hawk fighters which were used on
| >the East Timorese. Clark's response was that, if they weren't British
subjects
| >he wasn't interested and would continues to sell Indonesia weapons. He was
| >also responsible for selling war materials to Saddam Hussein. ALan Clark is
| >a real compassionate man, he cares more for his dogs than foreigners.
|
| Yet again, you fall for the mistake of using a single case as evidence
| for a trend.
Not at all. I'm pointing out that you appear to have fallen on your own
sword with your previous challenge to me to condemn activities by our
government in supplying Indonesia with weapons.
Ian G Batten
In article <6vhvt2$ekt$1...@news.gn.apc.org>,
achildofmuvernature <mong...@gn.apc.org> wrote:
> if you are vegan, you are usually more aware of where you food is
> from.
Yeah. I'd take this more seriously if `wholefood' didn't so often mean
`boring food'. The quality of the raw ingredients in the typical
wholefood shop is stunningly good, and organic/etc flour, pulses, ,
fruit, vegetables, pasta, and indeed meat is well worth the extra money
from a purely gastronomic point of view, and my cupboard is filled with
them, together with the weekly delivery from the organic veg co-op. So
why, then, do `wholefood' restaurants persist in believing that stodgy
pulse'n'tomato, soggy tarts in leathery wholemeal pastry and, worst of
all, things involving wholemeal pasta (the work of Satan, honestly) are
worth serving? If you take stodgy cooking and then use brown flour and
brown sugar it's just stodgier.
I'm convinced it's just mortification of the flesh. Fay Weldon has
recently said that teenagers become anorexic for the same reason that a
century ago they because nuns, and I think the same applies to much of
the environmental lobby: they have a deep and abiding suspicion of
things that are enjoyable, and prefer to tell us all that pleasure will
lead to hell. It's a shame there's not more room in the monasteries.
> Church Christians believe that they have a god given right to eat meat
> whatever its source.
Perhaps you'd quote a source? That's an, er, unusual interpretation.
ian
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Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >In article <sJcnzHAN...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
| ><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| >|
| >| How exactly do you know how many make up the 'hardcore' and how many
| >| 'hangers on' there are supposed to be?
| >
| >Hardcore are those who have documented links with real terrorist groups
| >like UFF and UVA in Ireland.
|
| Ah. So you reckon that just being racist, violent and into football
| isn't enough to get you into Combat18, and only those with 'documented
| links with terrorists' can be classed as the 'hardcore'?
That's how the security services classify them. Why should I disagree
with them?
| Ignoring for the moment your entirely arbitrary definition of
| 'hardcore', perhaps you could produce some sources for these 'documented
| links', particularly in relation to the numbers of these hardcore types
| and their hangers on?
World in Action - 1994. Investigation into links between C18 and BNP. Documented
meetings between two senior C18 members and a number of
Loyalist paramilitaries in Belfast, one of whom was Billy
Wright.
Scotland on Sunday - 1995 - Investigation into gun running to Northern Ireland
by Scottish Loyalist groups and their links with C18.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >
| >Who says I'm keen? I made a simple observation and you leapt in with a
| >challenge to produce evidence and numbers,
| >so I did.
| >
| I must have missed that.
Indeed.
Theo the dyslexic gnome
<I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> writes
>
>> if you are vegan, you are usually more aware of where you food is
>> from.
>
>Yeah. I'd take this more seriously if `wholefood' didn't so often mean
>`boring food'. The quality of the raw ingredients in the typical
>wholefood shop is stunningly good, and organic/etc flour, pulses, ,
>fruit, vegetables, pasta, and indeed meat is well worth the extra money
>from a purely gastronomic point of view, and my cupboard is filled with
>them, together with the weekly delivery from the organic veg co-op. So
>why, then, do `wholefood' restaurants persist in believing that stodgy
>pulse'n'tomato, soggy tarts in leathery wholemeal pastry and, worst of
>all, things involving wholemeal pasta (the work of Satan, honestly) are
>worth serving? If you take stodgy cooking and then use brown flour and
>brown sugar it's just stodgier.
Earlier on, I asked someone on this newsgroup who said his wife cooked
crisp wholemeal pastry. I asked how she did it. I am hoping he will
reply soon. My experience of wholemeal pastry is the same as
yours...soggy, and even more soggy if it is microwaved which tends to
happen in vegie cafes.
(But I find a 50-50 mix of wholemeal and white works OK.)
>
>I'm convinced it's just mortification of the flesh. Fay Weldon has
>recently said that teenagers become anorexic for the same reason that a
>century ago they because nuns, and I think the same applies to much of
>the environmental lobby: they have a deep and abiding suspicion of
>things that are enjoyable, and prefer to tell us all that pleasure will
>lead to hell. It's a shame there's not more room in the monasteries.
I agree with your mortification of the flesh stuff with vegans etc, but
I have had the good fortune to eat in a Benedictine monastry a couple of
times.
The Benedictines are a _'Hospitable Order'_ and one day at their
monastry on the Isle of White I had the best soup ever. It happened to
be vegie, but I dont think vegan, as it probably had milk in it, but not
vegie by intention. It was a creamy potato and leek soup with herbs and
home baked white rolls made from their own home grown produce. That meal
was twenty years ago, yet I still recall it as the best soup I have ever
tasted.
--
The dyslexic gnome
Ian G Batten
In article <Le1UBlAn...@thopkins.demon.co.uk>,
Theo the dyslexic gnome <holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> reply soon. My experience of wholemeal pastry is the same as
> yours...soggy, and even more soggy if it is microwaved which tends to
> (But I find a 50-50 mix of wholemeal and white works OK.)
But why bother? Would you otherwise eat so much white pastry that it is
a major calorific component in your diet, and therefore its lower
extraction ratio affects your total intake of roughage and such
nutrients as are removed in milling and not replaced afterwards? That's
a lot of pastry. Since that's almost certainly not the case, what,
beyond misplaced ideology, is the point of brown pastry? Bread is a
different story: many peoples' diets have sufficient bread in them that
the difference in roughage and trace nutrients between wholemeal and
white is significant overall. I'd even just about accept that of some
people and pasta. But pastry? What are you doing with it all?
I think that somehow the wholefood lobby think that white flour is
inherently sinful, not just an undesirable substitute for brown in
staple items. It's rather like those that argue that formula milk is
inherently bad for children in the developed world, such that people
have hand-wringing anguish over allowing their child one occasional
bottle of formula in amongst an otherwise exclusively-breast diet.
There are very, very few foods that are actively harmful: they merely
displace more healthy items.
ian
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Theo the dyslexic gnome
<I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> writes
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In article <Le1UBlAn...@thopkins.demon.co.uk>,
>Theo the dyslexic gnome <holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> reply soon. My experience of wholemeal pastry is the same as
>> yours...soggy, and even more soggy if it is microwaved which tends to
>> (But I find a 50-50 mix of wholemeal and white works OK.)
>
>But why bother? Would you otherwise eat so much white pastry that it is
>a major calorific component in your diet, and therefore its lower
>extraction ratio affects your total intake of roughage and such
>nutrients as are removed in milling and not replaced afterwards? That's
>a lot of pastry. Since that's almost certainly not the case, what,
>beyond misplaced ideology, is the point of brown pastry? Bread is a
>different story: many peoples' diets have sufficient bread in them that
>the difference in roughage and trace nutrients between wholemeal and
>white is significant overall. I'd even just about accept that of some
>people and pasta. But pastry? What are you doing with it all?
Good point, as I eat a lot of bread, and it's nearly all wholemeal.
The craziest bit of 'it has to be wholemeal or you will die' school of
cookery is those who try to make a white sauce out of brown flour. Yuk.
Also a wholemeal 'white sauce' doesn't flow properly, so wont coat
(And vegans probably try to make a wholemeal and soya 'milk subsitute'
white sauce. Double yuk-yuk.)
>
>I think that somehow the wholefood lobby think that white flour is
>inherently sinful, not just an undesirable substitute for brown in
>staple items. It's rather like those that argue that formula milk is
>inherently bad for children in the developed world, such that people
>have hand-wringing anguish over allowing their child one occasional
>bottle of formula in amongst an otherwise exclusively-breast diet.
>
>There are very, very few foods that are actively harmful: they merely
>displace more healthy items.
>
>ian
True: it is particularly those who champion wholefood seem to have this
overt or underlying feeling of sin. Which is a pity.
If wholefood champions were just to say 'it tastes better' then I would
think that they would make more progress.
There _are_ a lot of very real environmental and social reasons for an
(almost) fully vegie/vegan diet: sadly I think vegie/vegan champions are
often their own worst enemy in trying to get more people to eat their
way.
By the way: Isn't it slightly odd that vegitarians and vegans seem to
want to eat vegi-burgers and Sausmix (spelling) by the ton? These are
substiutes, and then these same people say they want 'real' food.
The dyslexic gnome
Alive after eating 1753 hamburgers and still counting....
Ian G Batten
In article <rZ1iNBAk...@thopkins.demon.co.uk>,
Theo the dyslexic gnome <holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> If wholefood champions were just to say 'it tastes better' then I would
> think that they would make more progress.
They would, however, in many cases simply be lying. Unless you have
some a priori hangup about meat, a sludge of lentils and tomatoes in a
soggy brown pastry case, served with a crude salad, is a bad meal, no
matter how ideologically sound it is. The same, of course, applies to
meat cooking: it's just that veggie cookery is almost universally like
that.
That's not to say vegetarian/vegan food can't be excellent: you only
have to look to India to see that, and one of my all-time favourite
restaurants proves it (Rani's, in Finchley). As, come to that, does my
all-time favourite take-away (The Milan Sweet Centre, Balsall Heath).
But since most veggie restaurants are run by ideologues, rather than
people who can actually cook, and since their technique is dominated by
the freezer, the microwave and other things you would have thought their
principles would have dealt a fatal blow to, the results are simply
horrid.
ian
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Haoleboy Aloha
> In article <6vhvt2$ekt$1...@news.gn.apc.org>,
> achildofmuvernature <mong...@gn.apc.org> wrote:
>
> > Church Christians believe that they have a god given right to eat meat
> > whatever its source.
>
> Perhaps you'd quote a source? That's an, er, unusual interpretation.
And I quote, "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be
fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread
of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of
the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all
the fish of the sea; They are given unto your hands. Everything that
lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green
plants, I now give you everything." The book of Genesis; chapter nine,
verses one through three, New International Version of the Holy Bible.
For the Christian there is no better source than the word of God. As a
Christian myself and a vegetarian I prefer to go to the original
proclamation in the first chapter of the book of Genesis. This passage
alludes to it towards the bottom when it says "Just as I gave you the
green plants..." In the beginning, that is all God gave us to eat, the
green plants.
--
Haoleboy Aloha
Visit my surf shack at: http://www.geocities.com/southbeach/island/3738
"A kind man benefits himself, but a cruel man brings trouble on
himself."
><>Proverb<><
JPC
>For the Christian there is no better source than the word of God. As a
>Christian myself and a vegetarian I prefer to go to the original
>proclamation in the first chapter of the book of Genesis. This passage
>alludes to it towards the bottom when it says "Just as I gave you the
>green plants..." In the beginning, that is all God gave us to eat, the
>green plants.
And the multiplication of fishes. Undoubtly to decorate the tables?
And Simon the fisherman, Did he fish only seaweeds?
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
| Ian G Batten wrote:
| > In article <6vhvt2$ekt$1...@news.gn.apc.org>,
| > achildofmuvernature <mong...@gn.apc.org> wrote:
|
| >
| > > Church Christians believe that they have a god given right to eat meat
| > > whatever its source.
| >
| > Perhaps you'd quote a source? That's an, er, unusual interpretation.
|
| And I quote, "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be
| fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread
| of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of
| the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all
| the fish of the sea; They are given unto your hands. Everything that
| lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green
| plants, I now give you everything." The book of Genesis; chapter nine,
| verses one through three, New International Version of the Holy Bible.
|
| For the Christian there is no better source than the word of God. As a
| Christian myself and a vegetarian I prefer to go to the original
| proclamation in the first chapter of the book of Genesis. This passage
| alludes to it towards the bottom when it says "Just as I gave you the
| green plants..." In the beginning, that is all God gave us to eat, the
| green plants.
So you regularly sacrifice a goat - just as it says at the beginning?
| --
| Haoleboy Aloha
| Visit my surf shack at: http://www.geocities.com/southbeach/island/3738
| "A kind man benefits himself, but a cruel man brings trouble on
| himself."
| ><>Proverb<><
Theo the dyslexic gnome
<I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> writes
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In article <rZ1iNBAk...@thopkins.demon.co.uk>,
>Theo the dyslexic gnome <holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> If wholefood champions were just to say 'it tastes better' then I would
>> think that they would make more progress.
>
>They would, however, in many cases simply be lying. Unless you have
>some a priori hangup about meat, a sludge of lentils and tomatoes in a
>soggy brown pastry case, served with a crude salad, is a bad meal, no
>matter how ideologically sound it is.
Sad but true.
>That's not to say vegetarian/vegan food can't be excellent: you only
>have to look to India to see that, and one of my all-time favourite
>restaurants proves it (Rani's, in Finchley). As, come to that, does my
>all-time favourite take-away (The Milan Sweet Centre, Balsall Heath).
>But since most veggie restaurants are run by ideologues, rather than
>people who can actually cook, and since their technique is dominated by
>the freezer, the microwave and other things you would have thought their
>principles would have dealt a fatal blow to, the results are simply
>horrid.
>
>ian
Sad but true.
As somewhere around 10% of the population are full or partial veggies,
and thus to a caterer a defined and possibly captive clientel, I am
astounded that most veggie place go quckly out of business.
I can only put this down to:
1. More enthusiasm than skill by the owners.
2. Unexciting food.
I'll put my bet on unexciting food and also an ambiance that may well
inhibit omnivors who may well be the persons who put the bums on the
seats that give that little extra profit that lies between profit and
loss. I dislike the apparent common assumption by the owners of veggie
cafes that I am happy to be surrounded by Free Tibet, CND, Greenpeace,
etc. posters, because it is making assumptions about me. I no more want
Greenpeace posters when eating at a veggie cafe than I would want
Conservative party posters at the Ritz Carvery.
And why, oh why, the pale stripped pine seats? Research shows that red
and yellow sells food. As witnessed by MacD, Wimpey, Burger King, and
the scarlet plush seats and wallpaper, and gold leaf chair backs and
legs, of the Ritz Carvery. (Dried sunfowers and redstaied pine would do
the trick?)
It continues to astound me that vegitarian cafe food is so appaling.
I have had to come round to the idea that deep down _many_ vegies who
champion vegie food actually hate food.
What about grilled asparagus topped with parmizan cheese and with a
little bit of oil/lemon/peper dressing. (And no salt) Why, oh why, is
this sort of food never found in vegie cafes? Well, one of the reasons
that I think such a delicious meal isn't found in veggie restaurants is
there seems to be a need for the dinners to don a cloak of assumed
poverty before eating. OK, vegan hippies browzing off the dole may be
'poor', but let them eat at home.
Most people eat out for pleasure. So why oh why the lentil stodge?
--
The dyslexic gnome
Illtud Daniel
>It continues to astound me that vegitarian cafe food is so appaling.
>I have had to come round to the idea that deep down _many_ vegies who
>champion vegie food actually hate food.
[generalism alert. If you're a veggie and feels this doesn't apply
to you, then obviously I'm not talking about you]
Nah. The point is that they like to feel that they're suffering -
sacrificing tasty food for the sake of the animals. If it tastes
good, then _obviously_ somebody or something somewhere is suffering
to produce it. Hence the stodge. Martyrs to the cause.
achildofmuvernature
>In article <3wp91GAr...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
><rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
>| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>--
> CamARAB
> http://members.xoom.com/The_Minister/index.htm
and what exactly have you proved?
that a few vegetarians are viloent, but 99% are not,
and you happen not to mention that most arms dealers, MPs, soldiers,
church of england ministers etcetc for example are probably meat
eaters.
achildofmuvernature
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>In article <6vhvt2$ekt$1...@news.gn.apc.org>,
>achildofmuvernature <mong...@gn.apc.org> wrote:
>> if you are vegan, you are usually more aware of where you food is
>> from.
quietly, sensitively, from means source, how the food is produced, ie
what the animal has been through listen quietly, you might
percieve....
achildofmuvernature
>The entity calling itself achildofmuvernature wrote:
speak to me directly if you wish to insult me please lain.
but i'd rather you didn't. we have some serious shit on Earth to sort
out. uk environment remember. i know this is getting cross posted
massively. i think i'll cut all the rest (other than uk
environment)out of future responses.
take it easy
jim.
Ian G Batten
In article <6viquf$c2$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>,
Illtud Daniel <ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> Nah. The point is that they like to feel that they're suffering -
> sacrificing tasty food for the sake of the animals. If it tastes
> good, then _obviously_ somebody or something somewhere is suffering
> to produce it. Hence the stodge. Martyrs to the cause.
He's not just tall and handsome, girls, he's also _right_.
ian
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Mark Meadows
> In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
> .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
> >Hope this helps.
>
> Not at all, as you still haven't given any accurate indication of how
> many people this is.
That's because he's making it up as he goes along (he always does)
Regards
Mark
--
--========= The Original "Mark Meadows" ========--
Emulated by many, equalled by none, rev**ed by all
==============================================
Mark Meadows
> mathatma gandi was a vegetarian.
That probably explains why she always looked so
severely undernourished.
Haoleboy Aloha
> >Christian myself and a vegetarian I prefer to go to the original
> >proclamation in the first chapter of the book of Genesis. This passage
> >alludes to it towards the bottom when it says "Just as I gave you the
> >green plants..." In the beginning, that is all God gave us to eat, the
> >green plants.
>
> And Simon the fisherman, Did he fish only seaweeds?
As was stated in the quote that you snipped, chapter 9 of Genesis, the
critters were given to be eaten. I do not have a problem with that, or
the use of animal sacrifices in the past. I am a vegetarian by choice,
not by biblical edict. I was just trying to point out theat the bible
also supports my diet choice as well as the meat-eaters. Daniel was
vegetarian at least part of his life. I could go off on all kinds of
tangents if you like.
Jonathan J Quick
<The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall.com>...
>
> | those freeing animals from torture really do not deserve to be
> | catogerised as rascists, or governemnt collaberators, unlike the bnp.
>
> They are fascists. They attack ethnic minorities because they don't like
> their cultural practises.
This really is a ridiculous argument. Those who disapprove of halal
butchers do so purely because of their treatment of animals, *not* because
of their ethnic or cultural background. Or do you think that it's ok to do
something wrong just because you're a social minority in some way and your
ancestors did things in a certain manner as part of their religious
practices? If I told you my family were pure Celtic on both sides traceable
back 2000 years or more, pagan by religion, and needed to ritually
disembowel live sheep and goats every full moon would you say "oh that's ok
then"?
JJ.
--
Email: jjq...@foxtrot.co.uk
Homepage: http://www.foxtrot.co.uk/
Alternative: http://195.188.39.239/
Jonathan J Quick
<The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall.com>...
>
> What proportion of the meat eating UK is involved with the BNP? What
> proprtion of the veggie UK is involved with the ALF?
>
> I'd suggest that the latter proportion is the larger.
Actually, probably not. The ALF represents a tiny, minuscule minority even
of ARAs, let alone veggies. The BNP on the other hand has a remarkably
large number of sympathisers who might not be members or even vote for
them, but approve to some extent of their "policies". Can anyone who
studied history remember the level of support Moseley & Co got in the 30s?
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>In article <+C3fZxAQ...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
><rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>|
>| Not at all, as you still haven't given any accurate indication of how
>| many people this is.
>
Cite please, along with supporting figures for the supposed 'hardcore'
and regulars that make up C18 and the ALF.
Mike
--
http://www.urban75.com/ UK e-zine - over 3 million hits!
"the finest & best designed independent site in Britain" Dly Telegraph
"the most relevant, innovative site of the nineties" Internet Magazine
to e-mail me, it's : m i k e (*at*) u r b a n 7 5 (*dot*) c o m
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>Indeed, as is Alan Clark.
But Alan Clark was not the Tory Party - and it was the Tory Party
collectively that was responsible for its foreign policy, not one
individual. But if dishonestly twisting it round to suit your loony
anti-veggie argument is the best you can do, don't let me stop you.
>There was a story about the weekly banquets Hitler held for his honoured
>'friends' in which only vegetarian food was served.
Fascinating, I'm sure. But *totally and utterly* irrelevant to a debate
about the supposed violent leanings of vegetarians in the UK over half a
century later.
mike
<I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> writes
> I think the same applies to much of
>the environmental lobby: they have a deep and abiding suspicion of
>things that are enjoyable, and prefer to tell us all that pleasure will
>lead to hell. It's a shame there's not more room in the monasteries.
You think that? Care to prove it?
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>|
>| Strange then, that the millions and millions of vegetarians world-wide
>| don't seem to share this supposedly pre-destined desire for mob
>| violence, isn't it?
>
>What? You mean like that noted vegetarian, Adolph Hitler?
Is Adolf Hitler 'millions and millions of people world-wide'?
No.
Any chance of you staying vaguely on-topic or is your ludicrous and
irrelevant Adolf fixation going to go on for much longer?
mike
.com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
>Wrong. Statistically it shows that vegetarians are more likely to be
>members of a violent organisation like the ALF than omnivores are likely to
>be members of a violent organisation like Combat 18.
Statistically, in the UK you're more likely to be murdered, raped or
assaulted by a meat eater than a veggie.
Fact.
achildofmuvernature
>Regards
He broke the british establishment though!
>
achildofmuvernature
>Theo the dyslexic gnome <holly...@thopkins.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>It continues to astound me that vegitarian cafe food is so appaling.
>>I have had to come round to the idea that deep down _many_ vegies who
>>champion vegie food actually hate food.
>[generalism alert. If you're a veggie and feels this doesn't apply
> to you, then obviously I'm not talking about you]
>Nah. The point is that they like to feel that they're suffering -
>sacrificing tasty food for the sake of the animals. If it tastes
>good, then _obviously_ somebody or something somewhere is suffering
>to produce it. Hence the stodge. Martyrs to the cause.
nah mate we're just more aware
achildofmuvernature
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>In article <6viquf$c2$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>,
>Illtud Daniel <ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Nah. The point is that they like to feel that they're suffering -
>> sacrificing tasty food for the sake of the animals. If it tastes
>> good, then _obviously_ somebody or something somewhere is suffering
>> to produce it. Hence the stodge. Martyrs to the cause.
>He's not just tall and handsome, girls, he's also _right_.
>ian
>--
don't delude your self ian, there's no 'girls' reading this,
there all out watching cosmic star dust.
John Lynch
nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>>Wrong. Statistically it shows that vegetarians are more likely to be
>>members of a violent organisation like the ALF than omnivores are likely to
>>be members of a violent organisation like Combat 18.
>
>Statistically, in the UK you're more likely to be murdered, raped or
>assaulted by a meat eater than a veggie.
>
rather pointless debate, but as a lover of recondite statistical sources
I'd be extremely grateful if you'd point me towards the records that
divide criminals by dietary preference
--
John Lynch
Sig removed until further notice
JPC
>I was just trying to point out theat the bible
>also supports my diet choice as well as the meat-eaters. Daniel was
>vegetarian at least part of his life. I could go off on all kinds of
>tangents if you like.
I dont worry. I'm atheist and omnivore...Ahem it's not quite true:i dont eat
iron.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >In article <r4v2PDAC...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, mike
| ><mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| >|
| >| Strange then, that the millions and millions of vegetarians world-wide
| >| don't seem to share this supposedly pre-destined desire for mob
| >| violence, isn't it?
| >
| >What? You mean like that noted vegetarian, Adolph Hitler?
|
| Is Adolf Hitler 'millions and millions of people world-wide'?
He certainly had a few million hanging onto his coat tails in Nazi Germany.
Vegetarianism was very popular in Germany in the 30s and early 40s.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >Wrong. Statistically it shows that vegetarians are more likely to be
| >members of a violent organisation like the ALF than omnivores are likely to
| >be members of a violent organisation like Combat 18.
|
| Statistically, in the UK you're more likely to be murdered, raped or
| assaulted by a meat eater than a veggie.
Evidence? We already know that one of the most notorious mass murderers in
the UK, Peter Sutcliffe, was a veggie.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
| >In article <+C3fZxAQ...@blakcat.demon.co.uk>, Richard Vialls
| ><rvi...@blakcat.nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| >|
| >| Not at all, as you still haven't given any accurate indication of how
| >| many people this is.
| >
| >I already have. Around 100 to 150 as widely reported in the media.
|
| Cite please,
World in Action, Scotland on Sunday. I've given this elsewhere.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
<mike@urb-nospam-an75-nein!.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <The_Minister-ya0235...@bourbon.propertymall
| .com>, Rev. Timothy N Nurse <The_Minister@no_junk.xoommail.com> writes
|
| >Indeed, as is Alan Clark.
|
| But Alan Clark was not the Tory Party - and it was the Tory Party
| collectively that was responsible for its foreign policy, not one
| individual.
No.
Alan Clark was the man who signed export approval for the Hawk fighters,
knowing that he was technically breaching Foreign Office guidelines by
doing so. His attitude, when called to book over this at the Scott Enquiry
was to admit he knew he was breaking the guidelines but, as it wasn't British
nationals being killed and it was beneficial for Britain's export books, he
was quite happy to do so. The Tory party did not break it's own guidelines
regarding arms exports to volatile 3rd World Countries - noted vegetarian
and animal rights campaigner Alan Clark did.
Dead Mangled Pigeon
mike wrote in message ...
>
>Statistically, in the UK you're more likely to be murdered, raped or
>assaulted by a meat eater than a veggie.
>
>
No, Statistic.
99% of meat eaters started out by drinking cows milk at an early age.
Cows milk leads to carnivorism???
Postmen are far more likely to be bitten by meat eating pets...
It's no more bolleaux than your point.
Julian
Victoria Conlan
>>members of a violent organisation like the ALF than omnivores are likely to
>>be members of a violent organisation like Combat 18.
>assaulted by a meat eater than a veggie.
>Fact.
Well, er, obviously, since only 10% of the population are veggie.
I'd be rather worried if it wasn't true.
--
UK comps and slogans: http://comps.browser.org/ http://comps.org/
Mike Warren
>
>
> Evidence? We already know that one of the most notorious mass
> murderers in
> the UK, Peter Sutcliffe, was a veggie.
>
> --
Well thats that proved then.
Mike Warren.
S. P. Burgess
drawn to vegetarianism rather than a liking for nut cutlets
*causing* people to become mass murderers.
Rev. Timothy N Nurse
| JPC wrote:
| >
[Biblical stuff]
| I was just trying to point out theat the bible
| also supports my diet choice as well as the meat-eaters.
It also supports bigamy!
"And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the
name of the other Zillah." - Gen. 4:19
Anyway, you seem to be confusing things. Here it is in full:
[After the flood]
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and
multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the
earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth,
and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb
have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not
eat.
In other words, God is saying "Eat what you want, but don't eat each other".
Nowhere does it say "Behold! I say unto you, a veggie diet is OK!"
Mike Warren
flying in aeroplanes is 'unnatural', walking is 'natural'watching TV
is 'unnatural'...having fireside chats is 'natural'
driving cars is 'unnatural'....walking(again) is 'natural'
arguing the toss on newsnet is 'unnatural'....fighting with big clubs
is 'natural'
helping someone in distress is 'unnatural'...mugging old ladies is
'natural'
listening to Phil Collins is 'unnatural'......
which of these 'unnatural' things do you do?..(ok ok definatly not the
last one then;)
cheers.
Mike Warren.