Saved by polymorph....

[jim]

bar shower developed a continuous drip from the 1/4 turn flow
valve. Got a tuit so pulled out the old to measure & get a
new.

Oh dear. No online source had the same spec. Nearest was very
close but the splined head of the spindle was 7.6mm, diameter of
my original dud was 9.8mm....

For 7 quid posted I ordered one yesterday & it arrived today (tap
magician, eBay).

So out with the polymorph

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B017SA92O4

and ten minutes later I had moulded myself a bush to enable the
smaller replacement spindle to fit snugly & exactly into the the
shower control knob.

All back together & job done! Assuming the shower doesn't get
above 60deg all should be ok :-)

Result IMHO.

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[GB]

Do you have to work that stuff whilst it's boiling hot? How?

[jim]

GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> Wrote in message:

"Polymorph plastic is a Nylon-like plastic that can be softened
in 62蚓 (140蚌) and shaped by hand. Once set, it is extremely
strong - so if you're fixing something with it, it will last
forever. Plastic can be melted over and over again. Directions of
use: 1. Prepare a container for the pellets - this can be a mug,
a bowl, etc. 2. Add pellets into container 3. Pour boiling water
into container 4. Wait for the pellets to become transparent 5.
Carefully remove from hot water, drain, and squeeze out water
trapped in beteween the pellets 6. Start moulding!"

I didn't use boiling water, just bloody hot :-)

[Brian Gaff]

There used to be some wonderful epoxy that did this kind of thing.Iyt was OK
at high temps but I found that over time it tended to shrink and knobs fell
off or the grip on the spindle stopped.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:o8n56f$46u$1...@dont-email.me...

[jim]

"Brian Gaff" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> Wrote in message:

> There used to be some wonderful epoxy that did this kind of thing.Iyt was OK
> at high temps but I found that over time it tended to shrink and knobs fell
> off or the grip on the spindle stopped.
>
> Brian
>

We'll see :-)

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 23/02/17 17:21, jim wrote:
> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> Wrote in message:
>> On 23/02/2017 17:10, jim wrote:
>>>
>>> bar shower developed a continuous drip from the 1/4 turn flow
>>> valve. Got a tuit so pulled out the old to measure & get a
>>> new.
>>>
>>> Oh dear. No online source had the same spec. Nearest was very
>>> close but the splined head of the spindle was 7.6mm, diameter of
>>> my original dud was 9.8mm....
>>>
>>> For 7 quid posted I ordered one yesterday & it arrived today (tap
>>> magician, eBay).
>>>
>>> So out with the polymorph
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B017SA92O4
>>>
>>> and ten minutes later I had moulded myself a bush to enable the
>>> smaller replacement spindle to fit snugly & exactly into the the
>>> shower control knob.
>>>
>>> All back together & job done! Assuming the shower doesn't get
>>> above 60deg all should be ok :-)
>>>
>>> Result IMHO.
>>>
>>
>> Do you have to work that stuff whilst it's boiling hot? How?
>>
>
>
> "Polymorph plastic is a Nylon-like plastic that can be softened

> in 62°C (140°F) and shaped by hand. Once set, it is extremely

> strong - so if you're fixing something with it, it will last
> forever. Plastic can be melted over and over again.

Shame that hot water can be over 62C...

> Directions of
> use: 1. Prepare a container for the pellets - this can be a mug,
> a bowl, etc. 2. Add pellets into container 3. Pour boiling water
> into container 4. Wait for the pellets to become transparent 5.
> Carefully remove from hot water, drain, and squeeze out water
> trapped in beteween the pellets 6. Start moulding!"
>
> I didn't use boiling water, just bloody hot :-)
>


--

Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

[jim]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> Wrote in message:

> On 23/02/17 17:21, jim wrote:
>> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> Wrote in message:
>>> On 23/02/2017 17:10, jim wrote:
>>>>
>>>> bar shower developed a continuous drip from the 1/4 turn flow
>>>> valve. Got a tuit so pulled out the old to measure & get a
>>>> new.
>>>>
>>>> Oh dear. No online source had the same spec. Nearest was very
>>>> close but the splined head of the spindle was 7.6mm, diameter of
>>>> my original dud was 9.8mm....
>>>>
>>>> For 7 quid posted I ordered one yesterday & it arrived today (tap
>>>> magician, eBay).
>>>>
>>>> So out with the polymorph
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B017SA92O4
>>>>
>>>> and ten minutes later I had moulded myself a bush to enable the
>>>> smaller replacement spindle to fit snugly & exactly into the the
>>>> shower control knob.
>>>>
>>>> All back together & job done! Assuming the shower doesn't get
>>>> above 60deg all should be ok :-)
>>>>
>>>> Result IMHO.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you have to work that stuff whilst it's boiling hot? How?
>>>
>>
>>
>> "Polymorph plastic is a Nylon-like plastic that can be softened

>> in 62蚓 (140蚌) and shaped by hand. Once set, it is extremely

>> strong - so if you're fixing something with it, it will last
>> forever. Plastic can be melted over and over again.
>
> Shame that hot water can be over 62C...
>

Yeah I hear it boils at 100deg C!

How hot do you have your shower?

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 24/02/17 08:25, jim wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> Wrote in message:
>> On 23/02/17 17:21, jim wrote:
>>> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> Wrote in message:
>>>> On 23/02/2017 17:10, jim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> bar shower developed a continuous drip from the 1/4 turn flow
>>>>> valve. Got a tuit so pulled out the old to measure & get a
>>>>> new.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh dear. No online source had the same spec. Nearest was very
>>>>> close but the splined head of the spindle was 7.6mm, diameter of
>>>>> my original dud was 9.8mm....
>>>>>
>>>>> For 7 quid posted I ordered one yesterday & it arrived today (tap
>>>>> magician, eBay).
>>>>>
>>>>> So out with the polymorph
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B017SA92O4
>>>>>
>>>>> and ten minutes later I had moulded myself a bush to enable the
>>>>> smaller replacement spindle to fit snugly & exactly into the the
>>>>> shower control knob.
>>>>>
>>>>> All back together & job done! Assuming the shower doesn't get
>>>>> above 60deg all should be ok :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Result IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you have to work that stuff whilst it's boiling hot? How?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Polymorph plastic is a Nylon-like plastic that can be softened

>>> in 62°C (140°F) and shaped by hand. Once set, it is extremely

>>> strong - so if you're fixing something with it, it will last
>>> forever. Plastic can be melted over and over again.
>>
>> Shame that hot water can be over 62C...
>>
>
> Yeah I hear it boils at 100deg C!
>
> How hot do you have your shower?
>

Well current premises are equipped with a combi. so about 27C

I was talking about REAL hot water


--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

[T i m]

Anything that works and lasts can be considered 'a result' I'd say.
;-)

Had the relative diameters had a slightly bigger I think I would have
3D printed a converter collar [1] and PLA is probably good for 150
DegC (it's extruded at 200 DegC).

That said, if these were splined (rather than with flats / D section)
I'm not sure you would get sufficient detail to print the splines
without going down to a very vine nozzle (currently .5mm).

A metal spindle would probably cut it's own into the inside of the
collar but the collar to plastic knob might need gluing (or melt
tacking) in to be sure.

You could print a complete new knob of course. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] For those interested in what it would take to design and print an
adaptor (and assuming you have access to a 3D printer of course), it
typically takes the following steps.

Open (free) Sketchup (Windows and Mac only I'm afraid), open a new
template and use the circle tool to draw a circle to the inner
diameter (spindle OD). Draw another circle over the first to the OD.
Select the inner circle and erase it. Use the drag tool to drag the
washer shape into a tube of your desired length (about 20 seconds so
far). 'Export STL' to filesystem.

Open RepetiorHost (free Win / Lin / Mac), load the .stl file and
'slice' the object to generate the .gcode file (another couple of
seconds). Hit print and watch while your adaptor appears in a few
minutes. ;-)

Yesterday I did very similar in that I designed and printed 30 off
very small (12 mm OD x 3mm thick) plastic 'feet' to screw underneath
our daughters large rabbit cage / run so it can stand just out of the
water where it sits on the concrete (hoping it will then wood will
last longer).

Cheers, T i m

[whisky-dave]

On Friday, 24 February 2017 04:59:51 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> > "Polymorph plastic is a Nylon-like plastic that can be softened
> > in 62°C (140°F) and shaped by hand. Once set, it is extremely
> > strong - so if you're fixing something with it, it will last
> > forever. Plastic can be melted over and over again.
>
> Shame that hot water can be over 62C...

62 C is about the temeprature of a cup of 'hot' tea.

I've used this.
https://www.rapidonline.com/major-brushes-polymorph-moreform-1000g-87-0093

one of a new generation of polymers with all the characteristics of a tough, machinable engineering material, yet fuses and becomes easily mouldable between 30°C and 62°C.

I used a hot air blower to heat it up.

[jim]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> Wrote in message:
> On 24/02/17 08:25, jim wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> Wrote in message:
>>> On 23/02/17 17:21, jim wrote:
>>>> GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> Wrote in message:
>>>>> On 23/02/2017 17:10, jim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bar shower developed a continuous drip from the 1/4 turn flow
>>>>>> valve. Got a tuit so pulled out the old to measure & get a
>>>>>> new.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh dear. No online source had the same spec. Nearest was very
>>>>>> close but the splined head of the spindle was 7.6mm, diameter of
>>>>>> my original dud was 9.8mm....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For 7 quid posted I ordered one yesterday & it arrived today (tap
>>>>>> magician, eBay).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So out with the polymorph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B017SA92O4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and ten minutes later I had moulded myself a bush to enable the
>>>>>> smaller replacement spindle to fit snugly & exactly into the the
>>>>>> shower control knob.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All back together & job done! Assuming the shower doesn't get
>>>>>> above 60deg all should be ok :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Result IMHO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have to work that stuff whilst it's boiling hot? How?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Polymorph plastic is a Nylon-like plastic that can be softened

>>>> in 62蚓 (140蚌) and shaped by hand. Once set, it is extremely

>>>> strong - so if you're fixing something with it, it will last
>>>> forever. Plastic can be melted over and over again.
>>>
>>> Shame that hot water can be over 62C...
>>>
>>
>> Yeah I hear it boils at 100deg C!
>>
>> How hot do you have your shower?
>>
> Well current premises are equipped with a combi. so about 27C
>
> I was talking about REAL hot water

That would be irrelevant then.

[jim]

whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

That would appear to be the same stuff.

[jim]

T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> Wrote in message:

> On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 17:10:26 +0000 (GMT+00:00), jim <k> wrote:
>
>>bar shower developed a continuous drip from the 1/4 turn flow
>> valve. Got a tuit so pulled out the old to measure & get a
>> new.
>>
>>Oh dear. No online source had the same spec. Nearest was very
>> close but the splined head of the spindle was 7.6mm, diameter of
>> my original dud was 9.8mm....
>>
>>For 7 quid posted I ordered one yesterday & it arrived today (tap
>> magician, eBay).
>>
>>So out with the polymorph
>>
>>https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B017SA92O4
>>
>>and ten minutes later I had moulded myself a bush to enable the
>> smaller replacement spindle to fit snugly & exactly into the the
>> shower control knob.
>>
>>All back together & job done! Assuming the shower doesn't get
>> above 60deg all should be ok :-)
>>
>>Result IMHO.
>
> Anything that works and lasts can be considered 'a result' I'd say.
> ;-)

How long is "last"?

> Had the relative diameters had a slightly bigger I think I would have
> 3D printed a converter collar [1] and PLA is probably good for 150
> DegC (it's extruded at 200 DegC).
>
> That said, if these were splined (rather than with flats / D section)
> I'm not sure you would get sufficient detail to print the splines
> without going down to a very vine nozzle (currently .5mm).

Splined (as per op).

> A metal spindle would probably cut it's own into the inside of the
> collar but the collar to plastic knob might need gluing (or melt
> tacking) in to be sure.

It would need to be removable for the next time the valve fails...

> You could print a complete new knob of course. ;-)

In chrome?

Interesting but sounds like a lot more work & kludge along the way?

> Open (free) Sketchup (Windows and Mac only I'm afraid)

Eh? I run Sketchup on Ubuntu with Wine
;-)

[whisky-dave]

So I wouldn't use it where the temperature is likely to exceed 30C

[jim]

Maybe it's not the same stuff then :-)
Time will tell...

[Peter Parry]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 17:14:39 +0000, GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>Do you have to work that stuff whilst it's boiling hot? How?

http://remaponline.org.uk/remapedia/2013/04/low-temperature-thermoplastic-polymorph/

[James Wilkinson Sword]

How much was your 3D printer, what model is it, and what are its limitations if any?

--
The three most common expressions (or famous last words) in aviation are:
"Why is it doing that?", "Where the hell are we?", and "Oh Shit!"

[jim]

Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> Wrote in message:

That's a nice link w pics.
Cheers

[Adam Aglionby]

Hmmm , usually Polymorph is PCL, Poly Capro Lactone with meting point of 62C

http://remaponline.org.uk/remapedia/2013/04/low-temperature-thermoplastic-polymorph/

an ebay vendor also offers a low temp version at 42C

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolmorph-Plastic-The-Lower-Melting-Point-Polymorph-Thermoplastic-DIY-Crafts-/201560479897

Never heard as low as 30C, standard polymorph certainly wont become soft in the hands.

PCL has very high impact strenght and can be used as press tooling.

[Adam Aglionby]

er the other rep rap link

http://reprap.org/wiki/Polycaprolactone

[T i m]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 12:14:28 +0000 (GMT+00:00), jim <k> wrote:

<snip>

>>>All back together & job done! Assuming the shower doesn't get
>>> above 60deg all should be ok :-)
>>>
>>>Result IMHO.
>>
>> Anything that works and lasts can be considered 'a result' I'd say.
>> ;-)
>
>How long is "last"?

The same length as a piece of string I guess but for most people that
would be long enough that re-doing the job wouldn't be considered
worse than the alternatives?

>
>> Had the relative diameters had a slightly bigger I think I would have
>> 3D printed a converter collar [1] and PLA is probably good for 150
>> DegC (it's extruded at 200 DegC).
>>
>> That said, if these were splined (rather than with flats / D section)
>> I'm not sure you would get sufficient detail to print the splines
>> without going down to a very vine nozzle (currently .5mm).
>
>Splined (as per op).

Yes, it's called 'thinking out loud'. ;-)

>
>> A metal spindle would probably cut it's own into the inside of the
>> collar but the collar to plastic knob might need gluing (or melt
>> tacking) in to be sure.
>
>It would need to be removable for the next time the valve fails...

It would be though wouldn't it, the knob and insert pull off the metal
splined shaft, as per the original?

>
>> You could print a complete new knob of course. ;-)
>
>In chrome?

It has to be chrome to function?

>
>Interesting but sounds like a lot more work & kludge along the way?

To you I'm guessing. Do you have or have you used a 3D printer OOI?

>
>> Open (free) Sketchup (Windows and Mac only I'm afraid)
>
>Eh? I run Sketchup on Ubuntu with Wine

I was talking of Officially supported OS's and weren't you the one
talking about kludges? ;-)

Sounds encouraging ... (not).

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=34500

"Rating: Garbage

What works: Install

What does not: Running the program"

I guess that counts as a result in the Linux world <weg> (and you
started this remember). ;-)

Now if only someone could help me install Logview on Mint 18 (Mate) 32
bit I wouldn't have to run Windows 8 on my Acer netbook ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 22:30:53 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
<imv...@somewear.com> wrote:

<snip>

>> Yesterday I did very similar in that I designed and printed 30 off
>> very small (12 mm OD x 3mm thick) plastic 'feet' to screw underneath
>> our daughters large rabbit cage / run so it can stand just out of the
>> water where it sits on the concrete (hoping it will then wood will
>> last longer).
>
>How much was your 3D printer,

It's not mine (yet) but my mate paid about £600 for the complete kit
about 18 months (possibly more) ago as the deluxe version with twin
extruders and .9 degree stepper motors.

>what model is it,

It's a MendelMax 1 - 1.5 as I don't think any two d-i-y built printers
will be the same (that's part of the point / fun / benefit of them).

Something like this:

http://www.achatzmediaserver.com/support/3d-printer-models/mendelmax/mendelmax-1-5-build-manual-introduction/

>and what are its limitations if any?

The print volume can be a limit (200(x) x 200(y) x 150(z) mm) and the
cost, but that is partly the function of being a very good (rigid)
design.

Yesterday it ran one print job for nearly 7 hours. Today it printed
another 2 hr job and several shorter ones.

When my mate was looking into getting one he asked me for my advice
but as I hadn't dealt with one before, I did some research and came up
with the following points I understood to be worthy of note.

UK based kit supplier (for support and quick access to spares / addons
etc).

A very rigid frame.

All open source.

Reliable in use.

Good reviews.

His Mrs actually landed on the MendelMax and we still believe it to be
a good decision. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 22:54:17 -0000, T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 22:30:53 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
> <imv...@somewear.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Yesterday I did very similar in that I designed and printed 30 off
>>> very small (12 mm OD x 3mm thick) plastic 'feet' to screw underneath
>>> our daughters large rabbit cage / run so it can stand just out of the
>>> water where it sits on the concrete (hoping it will then wood will
>>> last longer).
>>
>> How much was your 3D printer,
>
> It's not mine (yet) but my mate paid about £600 for the complete kit
> about 18 months (possibly more) ago as the deluxe version with twin
> extruders and .9 degree stepper motors.

Not too costly then, and I assume they will have come down a bit by now.

>> what model is it,
>
> It's a MendelMax 1 - 1.5 as I don't think any two d-i-y built printers
> will be the same (that's part of the point / fun / benefit of them).
>
> Something like this:
>
> http://www.achatzmediaserver.com/support/3d-printer-models/mendelmax/mendelmax-1-5-build-manual-introduction/

"Furthermore the printer can reproduce its own plastic parts." - oh now that's cool!

>> and what are its limitations if any?
>
> The print volume can be a limit (200(x) x 200(y) x 150(z) mm) and the
> cost, but that is partly the function of being a very good (rigid)
> design.
>
> Yesterday it ran one print job for nearly 7 hours. Today it printed
> another 2 hr job and several shorter ones.
>
> When my mate was looking into getting one he asked me for my advice
> but as I hadn't dealt with one before, I did some research and came up
> with the following points I understood to be worthy of note.
>
> UK based kit supplier (for support and quick access to spares / addons
> etc).
>
> A very rigid frame.
>
> All open source.
>
> Reliable in use.
>
> Good reviews.
>
> His Mrs actually landed on the MendelMax and we still believe it to be
> a good decision. ;-)

It sounds like fun, but I'm not sure I'd make enough use of it. What sort of things have you printed? I'm thinking replacements for broken parts on other things. Or you need an odd shape to form part of something you're building, and cutting wood/metal into that shape would be difficult. How strong is the material it prints?

--
The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese
-- Billy Wilson, Tough Guy, http://www.toughguy.co.uk

[T i m]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 23:38:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
<imv...@somewear.com> wrote:

<snip>
>>

>> http://www.achatzmediaserver.com/support/3d-printer-models/mendelmax/mendelmax-1-5-build-manual-introduction/
>
>"Furthermore the printer can reproduce its own plastic parts." - oh now that's cool!

It is indeed (we have two sets ready and waiting for mates).
>
<snip>

>>
>> His Mrs actually landed on the MendelMax and we still believe it to be
>> a good decision. ;-)
>
>It sounds like fun,

It's fun, fascinating, productive and money and time saving. ;-)

>but I'm not sure I'd make enough use of it.

I'd have to say it's been running nearly all the time (reasonably)
since we built it.

>What sort of things have you printed?

Loads of cases for Arduino, Raspberry Pi and other projects.

Some round 1" diameter axle to square section chassis adaptors (for a
garden chipper re-work).

A mount to allow us to fit a flat wall PIR lantern to the external
wall / corner of a building.

Some mounts to carry trailer cover support poles (thanks to John Rumm
here).

A 'U' type hook / bracket to hang a strimmer on the wall.

Some plastic feet to raise some boarding off the floor in a garage to
stop stuff getting wet if rain gets in.

Some smaller plastic feet to raise a rabbit run off the ground
slightly to help keep the wooden frame aired.

Some PC case hard drive mount sliders.

4 large 'feet' to raise a sofa to make it easier for my Mum to get on
and off.

Numerous Logos and badges.

Shoulder strap mounts for a 5F torch (originals broke and identically
weak replacements were £10 each).

Makeup mirror stand.

Hamster water bottle holder.

Ornate Chinese Hand fans (printed directly onto paper).

Tools for undoing Vape parts without marking.

Holders for vape bottles and spares.

Ducting and fan holders for a clean cabinet.

PC 5-1/4" - 120mm cooling fan bay with front vent.

A 'Cyclops' 3D image scanner plastic parts.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:740357

Numerous drilling and marking templates.

Virtual goggles for smartphone.

Various cooling fan grilles.

Upgrades for the 3D printer.

And there are still loads more things in the pipeline (like a round to
square dinghy mast step foot and adaptor).

>I'm thinking replacements for broken parts on other things.

Yup, if you can design it and fit it on the bed then pretty well
anything is doable. ;-) (The idea of dual extruders is you can use a
water soluble support filament to make it easier to print hollow
shapes). The printing software can automatically add easily removable
support material when printing long horizontal overhangs and bridges.

>Or you need an odd shape to form part of something you're building, and cutting wood/metal into that shape would be difficult.

Whilst that makes it far more rewarding and there are many things I've
printed rather than fabricating or turning, you can also use it for
the plain and simple stuff, because it's cheap and easy to do.

>How strong is the material it prints?

I'd say 'surprisingly, when you consider what and how light it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polylactic_acid

When we made the split ring shaped clamps that went round the 5D torch
(think Maglite) we were given the wrong diameter and they were printed
too small (easy to re-scale and re-print). Because the first ones were
of no use and about 10mm wide and 3mm thick (flexible enough to flex
and clamp round the torch with a bolt and inset nut), we let the torch
owner bend the unwanted ones to destruction. He was *very* surprised
just how much effort it took to both bend and finally break. It feels
like a reasonably resilient but also fairly stiff plastic?

You also have control to print them solid (100%) down to 5% (honeycomb
infill), depending on the requirement. For most things, 50% is a good
compromise between weight / material used and strength.

A 1kg roll of 1.75mm diameter filament (£10-20) will produce just
under 1kgs worth of objects as there is generally very little wastage
(other than design mistakes or printer hiccups etc).

Everyone who has seen it running will stop and watch it and is
fascinated to find out how it works (to varying degrees etc).

Nearly as much fun as watching a fish tank. ;-)

This is a fairly laid back overview of a MendelMax in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytxTRv9vAU8

In spite of having access to the printer for ~18 months now, the idea
that I can think of something I need / want in the morning and often
have it (or many identical copies) in my hand that afternoon (in one
of many colours) and without having to do much more than use a mouse,
is still pretty amazing. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[James Wilkinson Sword]

Thanks for all the info, I may just get one soon.

--
It is preferential to refrain from the utilization of sesquipedelian verbiage in the circumstance that your intellectualization can be expressed using comparatively simplistic lexicological entities.

[T i m]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 01:55:32 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
<imv...@somewear.com> wrote:

<snip>
>>

>> In spite of having access to the printer for ~18 months now, the idea
>> that I can think of something I need / want in the morning and often
>> have it (or many identical copies) in my hand that afternoon (in one
>> of many colours) and without having to do much more than use a mouse,
>> is still pretty amazing. ;-)
>
>Thanks for all the info,

No probs.

>I may just get one soon.

Depending if you are talking a ready made solution or a d-i-y kit,
with a kit you can start with something like a Prusa and a few plastic
clamps (that you can buy) and then use that to print the bits you need
to build a better model (like the MendelMax).

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/3dhubs/s3fs-public/Mendel%20Prusa.jpg

It uses cheap threaded rod and you can get the electronics (Arduino
Mega + RAMPS (controller addon board) cheaply from eBay / China and
similar with the Nema 17 1.8 / .9 Deg stepper motors.

I use the Marlin firmware on my Arduino Mega:

http://marlinfw.org/

This give a good overview of the general process and options:

http://marlinfw.org/docs/basics/introduction.html

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 23:38:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
<imv...@somewear.com> wrote:

<snip>

>What sort of things have you printed? I'm thinking replacements for broken parts on other things. Or you need an odd shape to form part of something you're building, and cutting wood/metal into that shape would be difficult.

I forgot to add the following to the list of things you could print
with it ... ;-)

https://www.thingiverse.com/

Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

>
> >How strong is the material it prints?
>
> I'd say 'surprisingly, when you consider what and how light it is.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polylactic_acid
>
> When we made the split ring shaped clamps that went round the 5D torch
> (think Maglite) we were given the wrong diameter and they were printed
> too small (easy to re-scale and re-print). Because the first ones were
> of no use and about 10mm wide and 3mm thick (flexible enough to flex
> and clamp round the torch with a bolt and inset nut), we let the torch
> owner bend the unwanted ones to destruction. He was *very* surprised
> just how much effort it took to both bend and finally break. It feels
> like a reasonably resilient but also fairly stiff plastic?

Can also print with PET, ABS , Polyolefins ..range is expanding all the time

http://shop.3dfilaprint.com/

>
> You also have control to print them solid (100%) down to 5% (honeycomb
> infill), depending on the requirement. For most things, 50% is a good
> compromise between weight / material used and strength.

Try more shells and less infill, lot of hollow objects will print fine with 0% infill, rarely go above 25% myself now.

>
> A 1kg roll of 1.75mm diameter filament (£10-20) will produce just
> under 1kgs worth of objects as there is generally very little wastage
> (other than design mistakes or printer hiccups etc).
>
> Everyone who has seen it running will stop and watch it and is
> fascinated to find out how it works (to varying degrees etc).
>
> Nearly as much fun as watching a fish tank. ;-)

Semi seriously thought about an app that downloads random items from Thingiverse and starts printing them , leaving people to guess what its printing.

Like watching potters wheel or something , is quite satisfying to watch ;-)

>
> This is a fairly laid back overview of a MendelMax in action:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytxTRv9vAU8
>
> In spite of having access to the printer for ~18 months now, the idea
> that I can think of something I need / want in the morning and often
> have it (or many identical copies) in my hand that afternoon (in one
> of many colours) and without having to do much more than use a mouse,
> is still pretty amazing. ;-)
>

Makes prtotyping a lot lot easier, physical shape in hand is lot easier to work out next stage than even best rendered graphics on screen.

> Cheers, T i m

Have a Wanhao i3 , prints fine straight out of the box, paid for itself within a fortnight.

https://www.technologyoutlet.co.uk/collections/3d-printers/products/3d-printer-wanhao-duplicator-i3?variant=4410312453

Technology Outlet have a good reputation, other vendors abound.

[T i m]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 02:26:40 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>
>> >How strong is the material it prints?
>>
>> I'd say 'surprisingly, when you consider what and how light it is.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polylactic_acid
>>
>> When we made the split ring shaped clamps that went round the 5D torch
>> (think Maglite) we were given the wrong diameter and they were printed
>> too small (easy to re-scale and re-print). Because the first ones were
>> of no use and about 10mm wide and 3mm thick (flexible enough to flex
>> and clamp round the torch with a bolt and inset nut), we let the torch
>> owner bend the unwanted ones to destruction. He was *very* surprised
>> just how much effort it took to both bend and finally break. It feels
>> like a reasonably resilient but also fairly stiff plastic?
>
>Can also print with PET, ABS , Polyolefins ..range is expanding all the time

Whilst I understand they can ... and we have a roll of ABS on the
shelf, we haven only ever used PLA so far.
>
>http://shop.3dfilaprint.com/

Bookmarked (although we generally buy off eBay).

>
>>
>> You also have control to print them solid (100%) down to 5% (honeycomb
>> infill), depending on the requirement. For most things, 50% is a good
>> compromise between weight / material used and strength.
>
>Try more shells and less infill, lot of hollow objects will print fine with 0% infill, rarely go above 25% myself now.

Good tip. Many of the things we print are 'structural' and so often
need a reasonable density to give then any internal strength. Then you
have the things so small they end up 100% in any case. ;-)

>
>
>>
>> A 1kg roll of 1.75mm diameter filament (£10-20) will produce just
>> under 1kgs worth of objects as there is generally very little wastage
>> (other than design mistakes or printer hiccups etc).
>>
>> Everyone who has seen it running will stop and watch it and is
>> fascinated to find out how it works (to varying degrees etc).
>>
>> Nearly as much fun as watching a fish tank. ;-)
>
>Semi seriously thought about an app that downloads random items from Thingiverse and starts printing them , leaving people to guess what its printing.

Random. ;-)

>
>Like watching potters wheel or something , is quite satisfying to watch ;-)

It is ... especially something smaller and naturally complex, rather
than just a big box etc.

>
>>
>> This is a fairly laid back overview of a MendelMax in action:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytxTRv9vAU8
>>
>> In spite of having access to the printer for ~18 months now, the idea
>> that I can think of something I need / want in the morning and often
>> have it (or many identical copies) in my hand that afternoon (in one
>> of many colours) and without having to do much more than use a mouse,
>> is still pretty amazing. ;-)
>>
>Makes prtotyping a lot lot easier, physical shape in hand is lot easier to work out next stage than even best rendered graphics on screen.

Yup.

>
>> Cheers, T i m
>
>Have a Wanhao i3 , prints fine straight out of the box, paid for itself within a fortnight.
>
>https://www.technologyoutlet.co.uk/collections/3d-printers/products/3d-printer-wanhao-duplicator-i3?variant=4410312453

Looks a good price for an OOTB solution and only showing how the
prices have been coming down.

I was watching something on Youtube where the guy was discussing a
Pruser i3 and said it couldn't really be called a Rep Rap machine
because few of the parts could be made by the machine itself.

>
>Technology Outlet have a good reputation, other vendors abound.

Thanks. It's good to get a recommendation of / for a UK supplier.

The x-carriage on our MendelMax is printed in ABS (the only thing on
there that is) and was designed for dual (direct drive) extruders.
Because I believe they increase the mass of the x axis to above that
of the Y ... and we have never had both extruders in action, I think
I'm going to modify the carriage by adding an ally plate to:
re-position the single extruder in the middle, to distribute the
weight centrally over the carriage and create more of a heatsink for
the cold-end (rather than relying on the extruder body fan).

The ABS is good as it is more flexible than PLA and we use it with the
X-carriage just sitting on the X-rod bearings, making it very easy to
lift off and disconnect even two extruders for maintenance etc.

One of the issues with the original Prusa was the lack of rigidity in
the frame, especially in the Y plane (meaning if you moved it you
might have to re-calibrate it) but that Wanhao i3 looks pretty rigid.

It doesn't look quite so easy to work on (especially the x-carriage)
as can be seen here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZJyWjoseI8). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[dennis@home]

I have been printing n scale (1:148) ww1 tanks from there for a
fortnight now.

I have been giving them away to people at the railway club who are
modelling ww1 trains.

You can buy them in white metal but they are just too heavy.

[T i m]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 15:38:01 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

>On 26/02/2017 02:30, T i m wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 23:38:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
>> <imv...@somewear.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> What sort of things have you printed? I'm thinking replacements
>>> for broken parts on other things. Or you need an odd shape to form
>>> part of something you're building, and cutting wood/metal into that
>>> shape would be difficult.
>>
>> I forgot to add the following to the list of things you could print
>> with it ... ;-)
>>
>> https://www.thingiverse.com/
>>
>

>I have been printing n scale (1:148) ww1 tanks from there for a
>fortnight now.

Cool. Fun innit. ;-)

>
>I have been giving them away to people at the railway club who are
>modelling ww1 trains.

And the beauty of having a 3D printer in that you can often (and often
easily) make things you can't get, or get easily or cheaply and cheap
enough to be able to give away. ;-)

>
>You can buy them in white metal but they are just too heavy.

And if you wanted 'weight' in a plastic printed model you could print
it hollow and fill it with lead shot.

What printer do you have OOI?

Cheers, T i m

[dennis@home]

On 26/02/2017 16:58, T i m wrote:

> And if you wanted 'weight' in a plastic printed model you could print
> it hollow and fill it with lead shot.

Or print in a metal filed plastic.

>
> What printer do you have OOI?
>
> Cheers, T i m
>

A CTC dual.

[T i m]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 21:12:06 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

>On 26/02/2017 16:58, T i m wrote:
>
>> And if you wanted 'weight' in a plastic printed model you could print
>> it hollow and fill it with lead shot.
>
>Or print in a metal filed plastic.

Have you done that?

>
>>
>> What printer do you have OOI?
>>
>

>A CTC dual.

Ooo, a wooden one. ;-)

I guess they would be pretty rigid and the fact they are partly
enclosed (and easier to fully enclose) better for printing ABS and the
more temperature / cooling sensitive plastics?

What about noise / resonance though. The MendelMax is pretty quiet.

Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:43:16 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 02:26:40 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Whilst I understand they can ... and we have a roll of ABS on the
> shelf, we haven only ever used PLA so far.
> >
> >http://shop.3dfilaprint.com/
>
> Bookmarked (although we generally buy off eBay).

TBH buy anywhere with best price ;-) Filaprint is reasonable for price, just used as an example of range of materials.

> >
> >>
> >> You also have control to print them solid (100%) down to 5% (honeycomb

> >https://www.technologyoutlet.co.uk/collections/3d-printers/products/3d-printer-wanhao-duplicator-i3?variant=4410312453
>
> Looks a good price for an OOTB solution and only showing how the
> prices have been coming down.

In line with UK DIY practice , what persuaded me on Wanhao is Aldi Australia have had them as the Coccoon Create before, with Aldi`s attitude to warranty reckoned wouldn`t be total junk.

Rigidity much improved by Z brace, printed brackets and 8mm threaded rod to create triangle at front of machine, like bracing on your Mendel.

>
> I was watching something on Youtube where the guy was discussing a
> Pruser i3 and said it couldn't really be called a Rep Rap machine
> because few of the parts could be made by the machine itself.

Always wondered about the RepRap purists , what eaxctly were they going to print hot ends and steppers with ;-)

Josef Prusa is the guy who designed the i3 and open sourced it , hence lot of Chinese variations like Wanhao. Even so about 6 week wait for kit version of Prusa i3 , he has over 300 Prusa i3 running 24/7 making the parts for Prusa i3

http://www.prusa3d.com

> >
> >Technology Outlet have a good reputation, other vendors abound.
>
> Thanks. It's good to get a recommendation of / for a UK supplier.
>
> The x-carriage on our MendelMax is printed in ABS (the only thing on
> there that is) and was designed for dual (direct drive) extruders.
> Because I believe they increase the mass of the x axis to above that
> of the Y ... and we have never had both extruders in action, I think
> I'm going to modify the carriage by adding an ally plate to:
> re-position the single extruder in the middle, to distribute the
> weight centrally over the carriage and create more of a heatsink for
> the cold-end (rather than relying on the extruder body fan).
>
> The ABS is good as it is more flexible than PLA and we use it with the
> X-carriage just sitting on the X-rod bearings, making it very easy to
> lift off and disconnect even two extruders for maintenance etc.
>
> One of the issues with the original Prusa was the lack of rigidity in
> the frame, especially in the Y plane (meaning if you moved it you
> might have to re-calibrate it) but that Wanhao i3 looks pretty rigid.
>
> It doesn't look quite so easy to work on (especially the x-carriage)
> as can be seen here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZJyWjoseI8). ;-)
>

Thin alloy y carriage is a known issue with all the cheap i3s , replaced it with a dibond one :

http://tehnologika.net/Wanhao-duplicator-i3-composit-heated-bed-support-y-carriage-plate-reprap/

works a treat.


> Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 04:21:42 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby

<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:43:16 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 02:26:40 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
>> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Whilst I understand they can ... and we have a roll of ABS on the
>> shelf, we haven only ever used PLA so far.
>> >
>> >http://shop.3dfilaprint.com/
>>
>> Bookmarked (although we generally buy off eBay).
>
>TBH buy anywhere with best price ;-)

Ah, ok. I mentioned that because I know some people go to a particular
supplier because they have had issues elsewhere. For example, we had
one roll of (admittedly cheap) PLA filament that would snap off at the
extruder if left overnight and another where the thickness was pretty
inconsistent (affecting the effective deposition rates).

>Filaprint is reasonable for price,

Ok.

> just used as an example of range of materials.

Understood. We have resisted trying other materials as we wanted to
learn to walk before we tried to run and even ABS (the second main
choice for material it seems) requires better thermal control during
the printing process.

We don't even have a fan on the extruder or bed and seem to be able to
print ok, not sure you could get away with that on my other materials
(but would be nice of you could). ;-)

>

>> >> You also have control to print them solid (100%) down to 5% (honeycomb
>
>> >https://www.technologyoutlet.co.uk/collections/3d-printers/products/3d-printer-wanhao-duplicator-i3?variant=4410312453
>>
>> Looks a good price for an OOTB solution and only showing how the
>> prices have been coming down.
>
>In line with UK DIY practice , what persuaded me on Wanhao is Aldi Australia have had them as the Coccoon Create before, with Aldi`s attitude to warranty reckoned wouldn`t be total junk.

No, I saw that and agree 100%. That said and outside of warrantee, I
wondered if the controller electronics was unique to them, as one of
the key requirements of the printer we were looking for was that it
was 100% available in the general supply market (Arduino Mega / RAMPS,
generic motors, stock ram sections etc).

>
>Rigidity much improved by Z brace, printed brackets and 8mm threaded rod to create triangle at front of machine, like bracing on your Mendel.

I see there are different versions of the Wanaho i3 machine and I
though the latest one had what looked like a pretty rigid (wide sheet
metal) link between the main frame verticals and the supports for the
Y axis?

>> I was watching something on Youtube where the guy was discussing a
>> Pruser i3 and said it couldn't really be called a Rep Rap machine
>> because few of the parts could be made by the machine itself.
>
>Always wondered about the RepRap purists , what eaxctly were they going to print hot ends and steppers with ;-)

Hehe.

>
>Josef Prusa is the guy who designed the i3 and open sourced it , hence lot of Chinese variations like Wanhao. Even so about 6 week wait for kit version of Prusa i3 , he has over 300 Prusa i3 running 24/7 making the parts for Prusa i3
>
>http://www.prusa3d.com

This 3d printing thing really fits we me as both an interest and
solution. Before building the MendelMax I'd had some experience with
Arduinos so that was quite comfortable, same with general electronics,
electromagnetics and mechanics (Kodak / personal etc).

We were able to get on with the Marlin firmware ok and the first 20mm
test cube came out pretty close (19.97x ... etc) so proved all our
belt pulley / stepper motor step figures) were all ok.

I also quite enjoy a bit of fettling and modification / improvement
and that's something that is easy to do on something so open and
accessible as the MendelMax (and building it from a kit means you get
everything you need and have everything guaranteed at component
level). So, the last little mod I did was to design and print a pair
of pointers that clip over the hex nuts at the bottom of the Z axis
rods that should indicate that the Z drive rods are staying in sync
(like lorry wheel nut pointers). It's very reassuring to see them
point in exactly the same direction, every time the Z axis homes and
amazing to think they could at all when they are 0.9 Degree stepper
motors being driven with 16 sub steps by the electronics with no
mechanical synchronisation between them!

What is also lucky is that all the software we need runs on Windows so
we didn't have the extra hurdle (as it would often be for us,
non-Linux geeks) of that to deal with at the beginning. We have since
tried some of it on Linux and had varying levels of success (just for
the S&G's, not because we have needed to). We also have OctoPrint
running on a Raspberry Pi but again, not really used it as such.
>
>> >
<snip>

>> It doesn't look quite so easy to work on (especially the x-carriage)
>> as can be seen here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZJyWjoseI8). ;-)
>>
>Thin alloy y carriage is a known issue with all the cheap i3s , replaced it with a dibond one :
>
>http://tehnologika.net/Wanhao-duplicator-i3-composit-heated-bed-support-y-carriage-plate-reprap/
>
>works a treat.

At 243g, and with the addition of the heated bed and glass, doesn't it
end up adding quite a bit of inertia to it all?

The Y axis build table on ours is the same basic geometry as yours
with 3 bearings but no cutouts (it's just a square of probably 1.5mm
thick ally). In each corner is a upstanding bolt and on those bolts
support the fibreglass heated bed (with thumb wheel adjusters under
the bed and nylocks nuts above). Clipped to that (4 bulldog clips) is
the mirrored glass build surface.

The only issue I can say we have had with that is not running the bed
quite hot enough and experiencing some end / corner lifting on some
bigger objects.

Cheers, T i m


p.s. Seeing this closeup picture of the bed and the Y axis belt idler
with it's cable-tie 'reinforcement ( http://imgur.com/dawwInv ) makes
me realise even further how well designed the MendelMax is (the
equivalent bearing mount is both vernier tension adjustable and
supported on both sides).

https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/e2/91/95/2d/a3/IMAG0328_display_large_preview_featured.jpg

[dennis@home]

On 26/02/2017 23:05, T i m wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 21:12:06 +0000, dennis@home
> <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 26/02/2017 16:58, T i m wrote:
>>
>>> And if you wanted 'weight' in a plastic printed model you could print
>>> it hollow and fill it with lead shot.
>>
>> Or print in a metal filed plastic.
>
> Have you done that?
>>
>>>
>>> What printer do you have OOI?
>>>
>>
>> A CTC dual.
>
> Ooo, a wooden one. ;-)

Yep.
laser cut plywood.
That is better than an acrylic one.

>
> I guess they would be pretty rigid and the fact they are partly
> enclosed (and easier to fully enclose) better for printing ABS and the
> more temperature / cooling sensitive plastics?

Mine is enclosed now, cheap behind the radiator foil at the sides and a
2mm plastic front held on with magnets, all topped off with an asda
brand 30l storage box.

>
> What about noise / resonance though. The MendelMax is pretty quiet.

The biggest noise is the stepper motors, that's worse when printing at
low speed.

I need to upgrade the firmware to sailfish at some time to get it to
print very fast as there are known bugs in the firmware that cause print
errors if you drive it too fast.

I also changed the heated bed thermistor to the correct one so it gets
to the right temp when you set it.

>
> Cheers, T i m
>

[dennis@home]

On 27/02/2017 12:21, Adam Aglionby wrote:


> Josef Prusa is the guy who designed the i3 and open sourced it ,
> hence lot of Chinese variations like Wanhao. Even so about 6 week
> wait for kit version of Prusa i3 , he has over 300 Prusa i3 running
> 24/7 making the parts for Prusa i3

All he needs is a quick run on an injection moulding machine and he will
have better, cheaper parts.

I could have printed a better extruder but it only cost £5 for an
injection moulded part set. It arrived next day too so it would have
taken nearly as long to print.

[dennis@home]

On 27/02/2017 14:09, T i m wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 04:21:42 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:43:16 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 02:26:40 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
>>> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Whilst I understand they can ... and we have a roll of ABS on
>>> the shelf, we haven only ever used PLA so far.
>>>>
>>>> http://shop.3dfilaprint.com/
>>>
>>> Bookmarked (although we generally buy off eBay).
>>
>> TBH buy anywhere with best price ;-)
>
> Ah, ok. I mentioned that because I know some people go to a
> particular supplier because they have had issues elsewhere. For
> example, we had one roll of (admittedly cheap) PLA filament that
> would snap off at the extruder if left overnight and another where
> the thickness was pretty inconsistent (affecting the effective
> deposition rates).
>
>> Filaprint is reasonable for price,
>
> Ok.
>
>> just used as an example of range of materials.
>
> Understood. We have resisted trying other materials as we wanted to
> learn to walk before we tried to run and even ABS (the second main
> choice for material it seems) requires better thermal control during
> the printing process.

I have been printing in ABS.
You need a heated bed if you expect it to stick.
You need a heated chamber if you don't want it to warp.

For the model stuff I print the heated bed is enough and it does warm
the enclosed CTC.

>
> We don't even have a fan on the extruder or bed and seem to be able
> to print ok, not sure you could get away with that on my other
> materials (but would be nice of you could). ;-)

You don't want a fan on ABS, I found that PLA was almost a molten blob
without a fan. It remained squishy for ages.

[T i m]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 15:23:41 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>
>I have been printing in ABS.

Cool.

>You need a heated bed if you expect it to stick.

Got, check.

>You need a heated chamber if you don't want it to warp.

Ah, though so.

>
>For the model stuff I print the heated bed is enough and it does warm
>the enclosed CTC.

So putting a bit of a cover / cubical round what we have could be good
enough, especially as an experiment?

>
>>
>> We don't even have a fan on the extruder or bed and seem to be able
>> to print ok, not sure you could get away with that on my other
>> materials (but would be nice of you could). ;-)
>
>You don't want a fan on ABS, I found that PLA was almost a molten blob
>without a fan.

Oooerr? What temperature were you printing it at OOI. We have the bed
at about 60-65 DegC and the extruder at about 200-205?

>It remained squishy for ages.

I'd say most (PLA) stuff is hard above the few layers that are heated
by the bed. In fact, pulling a couple of layers off the bed whilst hot
(Stanley knife blade to get an end up) has it nearly solidified before
you can put it down anywhere?

Ah, how hot is it where you run your printer ... ours is in a room
that's typically around 22 Deg?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 15:12:00 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>>> A CTC dual.
>>
>> Ooo, a wooden one. ;-)
>
>Yep.
>laser cut plywood.

Yeah, it looks pretty neat.

>That is better than an acrylic one.

Thermal stability / flexibility?

>
>>
>> I guess they would be pretty rigid and the fact they are partly
>> enclosed (and easier to fully enclose) better for printing ABS and the
>> more temperature / cooling sensitive plastics?
>
>Mine is enclosed now, cheap behind the radiator foil at the sides and a
>2mm plastic front held on with magnets, all topped off with an asda
>brand 30l storage box.

Yeah, it doesn't have to be airtight as such just keep some
temperature in. So you manage the cabinet temperature somehow?

>
>>
>> What about noise / resonance though. The MendelMax is pretty quiet.
>
>The biggest noise is the stepper motors, that's worse when printing at
>low speed.

Yeah, you do get some strange noises sometimes, like it's playing
music. ;-)

>
>I need to upgrade the firmware to sailfish at some time to get it to
>print very fast as there are known bugs in the firmware that cause print
>errors if you drive it too fast.

What are you running atm on what hardware?

>
>I also changed the heated bed thermistor to the correct one so it gets
>to the right temp when you set it.

Ah, that helps. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[dennis@home]

On 27/02/2017 15:38, T i m wrote:

>> You don't want a fan on ABS, I found that PLA was almost a molten blob
>> without a fan.
>
> Oooerr? What temperature were you printing it at OOI. We have the bed
> at about 60-65 DegC and the extruder at about 200-205?
>
>> It remained squishy for ages.
>
> I'd say most (PLA) stuff is hard above the few layers that are heated
> by the bed. In fact, pulling a couple of layers off the bed whilst hot
> (Stanley knife blade to get an end up) has it nearly solidified before
> you can put it down anywhere?

I tried pulling it off with my fingers and it squashed.
That was maybe a minute after the print had finished.
ABS is hard even on the bed.

>
> Ah, how hot is it where you run your printer ... ours is in a room
> that's typically around 22 Deg?

Mine has been in the conservatory at around 15C.

I extrude ABS at ~220C with the bed at 110-120C.
The PLA was ~200C and the bed set to 60C but the thermistor was wrong
and it was only about 45C when I measured it.

>
> Cheers, T i m
>

[dennis@home]

On 27/02/2017 15:49, T i m wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 15:12:00 +0000, dennis@home
> <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>>> A CTC dual.
>>>
>>> Ooo, a wooden one. ;-)
>>
>> Yep.
>> laser cut plywood.
>
> Yeah, it looks pretty neat.
>
>> That is better than an acrylic one.
>
> Thermal stability / flexibility?

Yes/yes.

>>
>>>
>>> I guess they would be pretty rigid and the fact they are partly
>>> enclosed (and easier to fully enclose) better for printing ABS and the
>>> more temperature / cooling sensitive plastics?
>>
>> Mine is enclosed now, cheap behind the radiator foil at the sides and a
>> 2mm plastic front held on with magnets, all topped off with an asda
>> brand 30l storage box.
>
> Yeah, it doesn't have to be airtight as such just keep some
> temperature in. So you manage the cabinet temperature somehow?

No, its just the heat from the bed and extruders.

>>
>>>
>>> What about noise / resonance though. The MendelMax is pretty quiet.
>>
>> The biggest noise is the stepper motors, that's worse when printing at
>> low speed.
>
> Yeah, you do get some strange noises sometimes, like it's playing
> music. ;-)
>>
>> I need to upgrade the firmware to sailfish at some time to get it to
>> print very fast as there are known bugs in the firmware that cause print
>> errors if you drive it too fast.
>
> What are you running atm on what hardware?

Its what came on the machine, a clone of makerbot firmware 7.2 AFAIK.
Sailfish is effectively 7.6 I think.

I have been using replicatorG software, but I am trying to get cura
working if I can work out the correct machine settings.

>>
>> I also changed the heated bed thermistor to the correct one so it gets
>> to the right temp when you set it.
>
> Ah, that helps. ;-)

Yes, the firmware had a limit of about 125C and with that set the bed
only got to about 100C.

>
> Cheers, T i m
>

[T i m]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 16:13:03 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>> Yeah, it doesn't have to be airtight as such just keep some
>> temperature in. So you manage the cabinet temperature somehow?
>
>No, its just the heat from the bed and extruders.

Ok and any idea what that actually equates to OOI, once all up and
running etc?
>
<snip>

>> What are you running atm on what hardware?
>
>Its what came on the machine, a clone of makerbot firmware 7.2 AFAIK.
>Sailfish is effectively 7.6 I think.

I'm not familiar with many other control boards, outside the Arduino
Mega / RAMPs combo.

>
>I have been using replicatorG software, but I am trying to get cura
>working if I can work out the correct machine settings.

So do either tell me what the control hardware is (have I missed it)
or was your answer 'whatever came with the machine', it. ;-)

I mean, what if it went wrong, how would you replace it?

>
>
>>>
>>> I also changed the heated bed thermistor to the correct one so it gets
>>> to the right temp when you set it.
>>
>> Ah, that helps. ;-)
>
>Yes, the firmware had a limit of about 125C and with that set the bed
>only got to about 100C.

The bed ... cripes, how hot does it have to be for ABS?

Cheers, T i m

[tabb...@gmail.com]

I love the idea of a 3d printer. The idea that one could feed it with plastic from the kitchen bin & get a slow stream of goods out at minimal cost. But the reality is far short, and it all looks like a complete time & money sink.


NT

[T i m]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:31:50 -0800 (PST), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Monday, 27 February 2017 17:23:34 UTC, T i m wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 16:13:03 +0000, dennis@home
>> <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >Yes, the firmware had a limit of about 125C and with that set the bed
>> >only got to about 100C.
>>
>> The bed ... cripes, how hot does it have to be for ABS?
>>
>> Cheers, T i m
>
>
>I love the idea of a 3d printer.

Most people who do stuff with stuff and fix stuff who have some
patience and a practical bent would. ;-)

>The idea that one could feed it with plastic from the kitchen bin

Well, the bigger printers use plastic in a granular form so as long as
you got enough of the right price it's entirely possible.

>& get a slow stream of goods out at minimal cost.

Yup.

>But the reality is far short, and it all looks like a complete time & money sink.

Then 1) you might have missed comments like 'mine paid me back in the
fist two months ...' and 2) you don't have any other hobbies or
interests, including, drinking, driving or cooking or 3) you haven't
considered what you might make on one (and what you might save over
commercial solutions or what you might be able to do that you
otherwise couldn't).

I'd rate it alongside (re/)building and regularly using your own audio
system or kiln, pole lathe, old car or motorbike or even fishtank,
where some effort / cost / involvement goes into the initial setup but
then after that you continue to get use / enjoyment out of it (at
minimal cost and can add things as you go).

Cheers, T i m

[dennis@home]

On 27/02/2017 17:23, T i m wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 16:13:03 +0000, dennis@home
> <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Yeah, it doesn't have to be airtight as such just keep some
>>> temperature in. So you manage the cabinet temperature somehow?
>>
>> No, its just the heat from the bed and extruders.
>
> Ok and any idea what that actually equates to OOI, once all up and
> running etc?

It feels warm in there so probably about 35C.
Some people have fitted thermostatically controlled heaters.

>>
> <snip>
>
>>> What are you running atm on what hardware?
>>
>> Its what came on the machine, a clone of makerbot firmware 7.2 AFAIK.
>> Sailfish is effectively 7.6 I think.
>
> I'm not familiar with many other control boards, outside the Arduino
> Mega / RAMPs combo.
>>
>> I have been using replicatorG software, but I am trying to get cura
>> working if I can work out the correct machine settings.
>
> So do either tell me what the control hardware is (have I missed it)
> or was your answer 'whatever came with the machine', it. ;-)
>
> I mean, what if it went wrong, how would you replace it?

Its one of these

http://www.geeetech.com/wiki/index.php/Mighty_Board

I would probably fix it at component level if it fails out of warranty.
Or if I can't I could fit a ramps board or use it as an excuse for a new
printer. ;-)

>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> I also changed the heated bed thermistor to the correct one so it gets
>>>> to the right temp when you set it.
>>>
>>> Ah, that helps. ;-)
>>
>> Yes, the firmware had a limit of about 125C and with that set the bed
>> only got to about 100C.
>
> The bed ... cripes, how hot does it have to be for ABS?

It probably needs to be about 100c on the surface.
But I have 3mm of glass on top of the bed so the bed needs to be a bit
hotter.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 27 February 2017 18:49:46 UTC, T i m wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:31:50 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
> >On Monday, 27 February 2017 17:23:34 UTC, T i m wrote:

> >I love the idea of a 3d printer.
>
> Most people who do stuff with stuff and fix stuff who have some
> patience and a practical bent would. ;-)
>
> >The idea that one could feed it with plastic from the kitchen bin
>
> Well, the bigger printers use plastic in a granular form so as long as
> you got enough of the right price it's entirely possible.

that's good to know. But doubtless bigger equals very pricey.

> >& get a slow stream of goods out at minimal cost.
>
> Yup.
>
> >But the reality is far short, and it all looks like a complete time & money sink.
>
> Then 1) you might have missed comments like 'mine paid me back in the
> fist two months ...'

I didn't miss it, I just couldn't see how in my case that would apply.

> and 2) you don't have any other hobbies or
> interests, including, drinking, driving or cooking or

I've no idea why you think that. I certainly don't have a stack of time to sink into 3d printers. If I got one I'd want it to just work - and AIUI the technology is really not there.

> 3) you haven't
> considered what you might make on one (and what you might save over
> commercial solutions or what you might be able to do that you
> otherwise couldn't).

I have had a very good look through thingiverse. Most there is gimmicks, there are some things I might make use of, but not hundreds or thousands of pounds worth. I could make prototypes with one, but not if I'd have to sink loads of time into it.

> I'd rate it alongside (re/)building and regularly using your own audio
> system or kiln, pole lathe, old car or motorbike or even fishtank,
> where some effort / cost / involvement goes into the initial setup but
> then after that you continue to get use / enjoyment out of it (at
> minimal cost and can add things as you go).
>
> Cheers, T i m

I'd want something that can churn out quite a lot of product and not consume significant time once set up. And run on granules & a good range of plastics. I assume such a thing would be uneconomic to buy.

One feature that would be good which I've never heard of would be the ability to place an object onto the bed, and the print head detects it & prints over/around it. Thus plastic & time is saved, and a greater range of products can be made. It doesn't strike me as too hard to implement.


NT

[T i m]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 19:13:00 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

>On 27/02/2017 17:23, T i m wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 16:13:03 +0000, dennis@home
>> <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Yeah, it doesn't have to be airtight as such just keep some
>>>> temperature in. So you manage the cabinet temperature somehow?
>>>
>>> No, its just the heat from the bed and extruders.
>>
>> Ok and any idea what that actually equates to OOI, once all up and
>> running etc?
>
>It feels warm in there so probably about 35C.

Ok.

>Some people have fitted thermostatically controlled heaters.

That's what I was wondering (how closely would you have to manage the
temperate etc). 'Kept generally (and probably consistently) warm'
sounds enough. ;-)
>
<snip>

>> So do either tell me what the control hardware is (have I missed it)
>> or was your answer 'whatever came with the machine', it. ;-)
>>
>> I mean, what if it went wrong, how would you replace it?
>
>Its one of these
>
>http://www.geeetech.com/wiki/index.php/Mighty_Board

That looks pretty comprehensive, as it should be for ~£100 from
China., and you say it came with the printer? Just checking but are
you sure it's the Atmega1280 not the cheaper GT2560 / Atmega1280
version (I don't know either way, genuine question etc).

>
>I would probably fix it at component level if it fails out of warranty.

Were there the cct diagrams on there, like you can get for the Arduino
/ RAMPS?

>Or if I can't I could fit a ramps board or use it as an excuse for a new
>printer. ;-)

RAMPS + Arduino you mean ... (as I'm not sure you could use a RAMPS
(I/O board) with the controller you have).
>
<snip>

>>> Yes, the firmware had a limit of about 125C and with that set the bed
>>> only got to about 100C.
>>
>> The bed ... cripes, how hot does it have to be for ABS?
>
>It probably needs to be about 100c on the surface.
>But I have 3mm of glass on top of the bed so the bed needs to be a bit
>hotter.

Understood. We have just recently come to that conclusion with the aid
of a IR thermometer and now run the bed at another 5 Deg (with less
lifting).

Ours has the fiberglass heated bed with the mirrored glass bed clipped
to it. We noticed the edges were cooler than the middle (predictable
really) and noticed they now do an ally based heated bed in the same
size and format. I wondered if that might be better than getting the
glass dissipate the heat? They also do one that is 300 x 200 and I
think the MendleMax can take that as std.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 16:06:08 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

>On 27/02/2017 15:38, T i m wrote:
>
>>> You don't want a fan on ABS, I found that PLA was almost a molten blob
>>> without a fan.
>>
>> Oooerr? What temperature were you printing it at OOI. We have the bed
>> at about 60-65 DegC and the extruder at about 200-205?
>>
>>> It remained squishy for ages.
>>
>> I'd say most (PLA) stuff is hard above the few layers that are heated
>> by the bed. In fact, pulling a couple of layers off the bed whilst hot
>> (Stanley knife blade to get an end up) has it nearly solidified before
>> you can put it down anywhere?
>
>I tried pulling it off with my fingers and it squashed.

Oh. Was this very small and / or hollow by any chance?

>That was maybe a minute after the print had finished.

Strange.

>ABS is hard even on the bed.

That's our experience with PLA, apart when a couple of layers were
just peeled off a full temp bed (as you would want / expect).

>
>>
>> Ah, how hot is it where you run your printer ... ours is in a room
>> that's typically around 22 Deg?
>
>Mine has been in the conservatory at around 15C.

That make the soft PLA thing even more confusing?

>
>I extrude ABS at ~220C with the bed at 110-120C.
>The PLA was ~200C and the bed set to 60C but the thermistor was wrong
>and it was only about 45C when I measured it.

Even less reason to still be soft. I would say printed objects jump
off the bed on their own when the bed gets down to 30-35 Deg and they
would be completely rigid by then.

Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 2:09:28 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 04:21:42 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >TBH buy anywhere with best price ;-)
>
> Ah, ok. I mentioned that because I know some people go to a particular
> supplier because they have had issues elsewhere. For example, we had
> one roll of (admittedly cheap) PLA filament that would snap off at the
> extruder if left overnight and another where the thickness was pretty
> inconsistent (affecting the effective deposition rates).
>

Yup got a roll of translucent that seems to 1.75 +- .25 :-( and a roll of silver that hardly sticks to itself.

> >Filaprint is reasonable for price,
>
> Ok.
>
> > just used as an example of range of materials.
>
> Understood. We have resisted trying other materials as we wanted to
> learn to walk before we tried to run and even ABS (the second main
> choice for material it seems) requires better thermal control during
> the printing process.

PETG seems to be closing in , enclosure appears to be main thing , keep print chamber constant temp.

>
> We don't even have a fan on the extruder or bed and seem to be able to
> print ok, not sure you could get away with that on my other materials
> (but would be nice of you could). ;-)
> >
>
> >> >> You also have control to print them solid (100%) down to 5% (honeycomb
> >
> >> >https://www.technologyoutlet.co.uk/collections/3d-printers/products/3d-printer-wanhao-duplicator-i3?variant=4410312453
> >>
> >> Looks a good price for an OOTB solution and only showing how the
> >> prices have been coming down.
> >
> >In line with UK DIY practice , what persuaded me on Wanhao is Aldi Australia have had them as the Coccoon Create before, with Aldi`s attitude to warranty reckoned wouldn`t be total junk.
>
> No, I saw that and agree 100%. That said and outside of warrantee, I
> wondered if the controller electronics was unique to them, as one of
> the key requirements of the printer we were looking for was that it
> was 100% available in the general supply market (Arduino Mega / RAMPS,
> generic motors, stock ram sections etc).

Wanhao uses a version of Melzi board, when it expires planning on changing to arduino/ramps.

Ramps may have an issue like the Wanhao melzi of excessive current being drawn though on board Mosfet for heated bed

> >
> >Rigidity much improved by Z brace, printed brackets and 8mm threaded rod to create triangle at front of machine, like bracing on your Mendel.
>
> I see there are different versions of the Wanaho i3 machine and I
> though the latest one had what looked like a pretty rigid (wide sheet
> metal) link between the main frame verticals and the supports for the
> Y axis?

i3 Plus has a different frame with control in base makes base more chunky.

>

>
> >> It doesn't look quite so easy to work on (especially the x-carriage)
> >> as can be seen here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZJyWjoseI8). ;-)
> >>
> >Thin alloy y carriage is a known issue with all the cheap i3s , replaced it with a dibond one :
> >
> >http://tehnologika.net/Wanhao-duplicator-i3-composit-heated-bed-support-y-carriage-plate-reprap/
> >
> >works a treat.
>
> At 243g, and with the addition of the heated bed and glass, doesn't it
> end up adding quite a bit of inertia to it all?

Not really, its not much heavier than the existing alloy plate or the other alternative a thicker alloy plate.

Tehnologika now offering it witha 3 point bed levelling option.

>
> The Y axis build table on ours is the same basic geometry as yours
> with 3 bearings but no cutouts (it's just a square of probably 1.5mm
> thick ally). In each corner is a upstanding bolt and on those bolts
> support the fibreglass heated bed (with thumb wheel adjusters under
> the bed and nylocks nuts above). Clipped to that (4 bulldog clips) is
> the mirrored glass build surface.
>
> The only issue I can say we have had with that is not running the bed
> quite hot enough and experiencing some end / corner lifting on some
> bigger objects.
>

Currently finding Poundland, 5 for a quid, gluestick the answer to PLA lift issues, have to let the glass chill to remove the print or spray print with upside down air duster.

> Cheers, T i m
>
>
> p.s. Seeing this closeup picture of the bed and the Y axis belt idler
> with it's cable-tie 'reinforcement ( http://imgur.com/dawwInv ) makes
> me realise even further how well designed the MendelMax is (the
> equivalent bearing mount is both vernier tension adjustable and
> supported on both sides).
>

Gotta cut costs somewhere :-) number of mods for the idler mount.


> https://cdn.thingiverse.com/renders/e2/91/95/2d/a3/IMAG0328_display_large_preview_featured.jpg

[T i m]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 13:58:17 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>> Ah, ok. I mentioned that because I know some people go to a particular
>> supplier because they have had issues elsewhere. For example, we had
>> one roll of (admittedly cheap) PLA filament that would snap off at the
>> extruder if left overnight and another where the thickness was pretty
>> inconsistent (affecting the effective deposition rates).
>>
>Yup got a roll of translucent that seems to 1.75 +- .25 :-(

Great for print consistency eh (not). I was wondering if I'd see a
realtime diameter measure that adjusts the feedrate automatically to
compensate (or if I didn't maybe I should invent one). ;-)

> and a roll of silver that hardly sticks to itself.

Teflon? ;-)
>
<snip>

>>
>> Understood. We have resisted trying other materials as we wanted to
>> learn to walk before we tried to run and even ABS (the second main
>> choice for material it seems) requires better thermal control during
>> the printing process.
>
>PETG seems to be closing in ,

Interesting:
https://all3dp.com/petg-filament-3d-printing/

>enclosure appears to be main thing , keep print chamber constant temp.

Understood.
>
>>
<snip>

>> No, I saw that and agree 100%. That said and outside of warrantee, I
>> wondered if the controller electronics was unique to them, as one of
>> the key requirements of the printer we were looking for was that it
>> was 100% available in the general supply market (Arduino Mega / RAMPS,
>> generic motors, stock ram sections etc).
>
>Wanhao uses a version of Melzi board, when it expires planning on changing to arduino/ramps.

Ok.

>
>Ramps may have an issue like the Wanhao melzi of excessive current being drawn though on board Mosfet for heated bed

Something we discovered early on an I bypassed by using the RAMPS FET
to feed a 25A / 12V relay (car type) as the bed is used in 'bang bang'
mode on our setup. It's been working faultlessly running most days and
for 18 months or so. ;-)
>
<snip>

>> I see there are different versions of the Wanaho i3 machine and I
>> though the latest one had what looked like a pretty rigid (wide sheet
>> metal) link between the main frame verticals and the supports for the
>> Y axis?
>
>i3 Plus has a different frame with control in base makes base more chunky.

Yes, that's what I thought I noticed (and the base frame is enclosed
etc).
>>
<snip>

>> At 243g, and with the addition of the heated bed and glass, doesn't it
>> end up adding quite a bit of inertia to it all?
>
>Not really, its not much heavier than the existing alloy plate or the other alternative a thicker alloy plate.

Ok.

>
>Tehnologika now offering it witha 3 point bed levelling option.

Ok.
>
<snip>

>> The only issue I can say we have had with that is not running the bed
>> quite hot enough and experiencing some end / corner lifting on some
>> bigger objects.
>>
>
>Currently finding Poundland, 5 for a quid, gluestick the answer to PLA lift issues, have to let the glass chill to remove the print or spray print with upside down air duster.

;-)

>
>
>> Cheers, T i m
>>
>>
>> p.s. Seeing this closeup picture of the bed and the Y axis belt idler
>> with it's cable-tie 'reinforcement ( http://imgur.com/dawwInv ) makes
>> me realise even further how well designed the MendelMax is (the
>> equivalent bearing mount is both vernier tension adjustable and
>> supported on both sides).
>>
>
>Gotta cut costs somewhere :-)

Well, I guess, but a second side to the mount wouldn't have cost much
to install in the factory eh. ;-)

>number of mods for the idler mount.

I'm sure there are, looking at that design.

When we first started putting the MM together (and this was my fist
ever exposure to such) there was lots of 'WTF' because much of it
looked 'iffy'. However, as we got used to it and have had need to
strip stuff down or upgrade / modify I think we have concluded how
well it was thought out.

We have sort have taken for granted (since the first test cube print
really) that it will be pretty close dimensionally to whatever we had
drawn on the screen and the finish of even fairly large surfaces have
been about as goof as you could imagine them to be. No blobs, no
delamination, no joggles etc etc.

We do have the odd issue of course and have proven the advice that if
you are running a long print it's best to do it directly from the SD
card. We really need to finish it properly ... the Arduino and RAMPS
are just sat on the table by the back of the printer (the box we
printed for it is sitting empty on the frame) and all the cables need
running in properly. That said, the way it is now makes it very easy
to work on anything. ;-)

One kludge we must improve is we have a small fan sitting on the table
that is generally blowing air over the RAMPS board and when a print is
finished we pick it up and stand it on the back of the frame to force
cool the bed to get it to release quicker. I've designed and printed a
bracket to allow us to mount a flat type fan to the front right of the
chassis and intend to take a 12V feed from the n/c contact of the bed
heater relay and possibly the switched fan outlet (currently unused)
and add whatever gcode is required to park the bed forward at the end
of the print and turn the fan on (maybe even monitoring the bed temp
is possible)?

Cheers, T i m

[whisky-dave]

On Monday, 27 February 2017 18:49:46 UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:31:50 -0800 (PST), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >On Monday, 27 February 2017 17:23:34 UTC, T i m wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 16:13:03 +0000, dennis@home
> >> <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> >Yes, the firmware had a limit of about 125C and with that set the bed
> >> >only got to about 100C.
> >>
> >> The bed ... cripes, how hot does it have to be for ABS?
> >>
> >> Cheers, T i m
> >
> >
> >I love the idea of a 3d printer.
>
> Most people who do stuff with stuff and fix stuff who have some
> patience and a practical bent would. ;-)

and it;s the closest I'm likley to get to a star trek replicator.
I have 2 in the lab.

>
> >The idea that one could feed it with plastic from the kitchen bin
>
> Well, the bigger printers use plastic in a granular form so as long as
> you got enough of the right price it's entirely possible.

It'll always be the wrong sort of plastic in the bin , the sort that clogs nozzles and produces noxious fumes.

> >& get a slow stream of goods out at minimal cost.
>
> Yup.

Then you wake up.

>
> >But the reality is far short, and it all looks like a complete time & money sink.
>
> Then 1) you might have missed comments like 'mine paid me back in the
> fist two months ...'

depends who you are I guess and various other things.

> and 2) you don't have any other hobbies or
> interests, including, drinking, driving or cooking or 3) you haven't
> considered what you might make on one (and what you might save over
> commercial solutions or what you might be able to do that you
> otherwise couldn't).

You can produce lots of toys to go in chriostmas crackers, which you can buy at a fraction of the cost of printing them yourself.

>
> I'd rate it alongside (re/)building and regularly using your own audio
> system or kiln, pole lathe, old car or motorbike or even fishtank,
> where some effort / cost / involvement goes into the initial setup but
> then after that you continue to get use / enjoyment out of it (at
> minimal cost and can add things as you go).

and if you never get bored of making yuor own custom chess pieces it's fine.

The number of stidetns that want to make a box for their project.....
in the time it takes to design and get right you can buy a box and have it delievered and drilled before your prototype is finished.

[jim]

whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

Ah a breath of reality :-)
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[T i m]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 03:20:09 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
<whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>
>The number of stidetns that want to make a box for their project.....

Is? Give me a clue?

>in the time it takes to design and get right

Ah, so you are teaching them how to do it then I guess? ;-)

> you can buy a box

You can? You can buy tailored boxes for any piece of equipment you
build? Cool. (I wonder if someone else who knows what they are doing
are designing and printing them). ;-)

>and have it delievered and drilled before your prototype is finished.

Same day delivery and free then I'm guessing?

I think you should put the link to this magic service you have as
there are bound to be many people who would want it!

Cheers, T i m (sitting here looking at the LED flashing though the
translucent case he printed for his Pi3). ;-)

[T i m]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT+00:00), jim <k> wrote:

<snip>

>> The number of stidetns that want to make a box for their project.....
>> in the time it takes to design and get right you can buy a box and have it delievered and drilled before your prototype is finished.
>>
>
>Ah a breath of reality :-)

Sorry but I'd suggest it's more 'a bad workman blaming their tools' or
the kit really is bad (it happens and no unlikely in an educational
establishment when such things are often abused).

Others here who actually run 3d printers seem to be able to use them
as the tools they are, accepting that the whole subject is still
fairly new in the diy / home arena of course.

I have both just printed (from the web) and designed and printed many
many items that have worked perfectly fist time and part of that is
having a good printer and the other the skills to use it (to some
level of that).

So, if I want a case for a Raspberry Pi I'll see if I can find
something suitable on the net (no point re-inventing the wheel) and if
not, design and print something that will be ready and useable quicker
that I could get to even Maplins and back (and the chances the time,
fuel and item would cost way more than the cost to produce the item on
the printer (ignoring the cost of the printer etc), assuming it was in
stock and such a thing existed etc.

But hey, no one is forcing anyone to get, do or buy anything ... just
those of us who have seem to agree they are a very useful facility /
tool. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[whisky-dave]

On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:19:28 UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT+00:00), jim <k> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> The number of stidetns that want to make a box for their project.....
> >> in the time it takes to design and get right you can buy a box and have it delievered and drilled before your prototype is finished.
> >>
> >
> >Ah a breath of reality :-)
>
> Sorry but I'd suggest it's more 'a bad workman blaming their tools' or
> the kit really is bad (it happens and no unlikely in an educational
> establishment when such things are often abused).

Partly true but nit everyone is born with the ability to use these things.

>
> Others here who actually run 3d printers seem to be able to use them
> as the tools they are, accepting that the whole subject is still
> fairly new in the diy / home arena of course.

So for the majority still pretty much a waste of time and effort.

>
> I have both just printed (from the web) and designed and printed many
> many items that have worked perfectly fist time and part of that is
> having a good printer and the other the skills to use it (to some
> level of that).

So not one of those sub £1000 printers ....
don;t get them confused with the somewhat better 3D printers I think the one downsatairs was £80K.

>
> So, if I want a case for a Raspberry Pi I'll see if I can find
> something suitable on the net (no point re-inventing the wheel)

maybe you'd like to say how long it takes to print a pi box I'd say a couple of hours, and can you work out the cost of the plastic used .

and if
> not, design and print something that will be ready and useable quicker
> that I could get to even Maplins and back (and the chances the time,
> fuel and item would cost way more than the cost to produce the item on
> the printer (ignoring the cost of the printer etc), assuming it was in
> stock and such a thing existed etc.

Depending how you count such things.

>
> But hey, no one is forcing anyone to get, do or buy anything ... just
> those of us who have seem to agree they are a very useful facility /
> tool. ;-)

Of course they are but for most it's like buying a printer and paper to print your own holiday snaps or postcards.
Its the learnign curve that is the problem.

Tell you what I can buy a pi case for under £6 how much coupld you make a pi case for ?

[Adam Aglionby]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 2:09:33 AM UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 13:58:17 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> >enclosure appears to be main thing , keep print chamber constant temp.
>
> Understood.
> >

Ikea Lack tables in various combinations appear to be 3D printer enclosure top choice.

> >>
> <snip>

> >>
> >>
> >> p.s. Seeing this closeup picture of the bed and the Y axis belt idler
> >> with it's cable-tie 'reinforcement ( http://imgur.com/dawwInv ) makes
> >> me realise even further how well designed the MendelMax is (the
> >> equivalent bearing mount is both vernier tension adjustable and
> >> supported on both sides).
> >>
> >
> >Gotta cut costs somewhere :-)
>
> Well, I guess, but a second side to the mount wouldn't have cost much
> to install in the factory eh. ;-)
>
> >number of mods for the idler mount.
>
> I'm sure there are, looking at that design.

Also have a Malyan M150, 160 quid when Hobby King were clearing UK stock, it shows even sharper cost reduction, plastic idlers with squeaky bearings.

>
> When we first started putting the MM together (and this was my fist
> ever exposure to such) there was lots of 'WTF' because much of it
> looked 'iffy'. However, as we got used to it and have had need to
> strip stuff down or upgrade / modify I think we have concluded how
> well it was thought out.

Think now riding on shoulders of people who took it through the ZX80 and 81 stage and 3D printing is at the Spectrum 48 stage, interesting and of use to a wider audience but still a niche that requires tinkering.

>
> We have sort have taken for granted (since the first test cube print
> really) that it will be pretty close dimensionally to whatever we had
> drawn on the screen and the finish of even fairly large surfaces have
> been about as goof as you could imagine them to be. No blobs, no
> delamination, no joggles etc etc.

Previously had jobs run via 3D Hubs on Zortrax M200 , Ultimaker 2 and Form 1 , Wanhao can turn out similar quality for my needs, Malyan needs a flex coupler to eliminate Z wobble.

>
> We do have the odd issue of course and have proven the advice that if
> you are running a long print it's best to do it directly from the SD
> card. We really need to finish it properly ... the Arduino and RAMPS
> are just sat on the table by the back of the printer (the box we
> printed for it is sitting empty on the frame) and all the cables need
> running in properly. That said, the way it is now makes it very easy
> to work on anything. ;-)
>
> One kludge we must improve is we have a small fan sitting on the table
> that is generally blowing air over the RAMPS board and when a print is
> finished we pick it up and stand it on the back of the frame to force
> cool the bed to get it to release quicker. I've designed and printed a
> bracket to allow us to mount a flat type fan to the front right of the
> chassis and intend to take a 12V feed from the n/c contact of the bed
> heater relay and possibly the switched fan outlet (currently unused)
> and add whatever gcode is required to park the bed forward at the end
> of the print and turn the fan on (maybe even monitoring the bed temp
> is possible)?
>

Saw somone who put a shield on one side of hotend, remote monitoring of print, used the X carriage to knock print off bed when cooled and start next one ;-)


> Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 11:20:11 AM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:

>
> and it;s the closest I'm likley to get to a star trek replicator.

:-)

> I have 2 in the lab.
>
>
> >
> > >The idea that one could feed it with plastic from the kitchen bin

or what you might be able to do that you
> > otherwise couldn't).
>
> You can produce lots of toys to go in chriostmas crackers, which you can buy at a fraction of the cost of printing them yourself.

3D printing did sort out my entire Christmas list but then it was things not available in any shops ;-)

>
> >
> > I'd rate it alongside (re/)building and regularly using your own audio
> > system or kiln, pole lathe, old car or motorbike or even fishtank,
> > where some effort / cost / involvement goes into the initial setup but
> > then after that you continue to get use / enjoyment out of it (at
> > minimal cost and can add things as you go).
>
> and if you never get bored of making yuor own custom chess pieces it's fine.

Forgot about D&D figures and n sided dice ;-)

>
> The number of stidetns that want to make a box for their project.....
> in the time it takes to design and get right you can buy a box and have it delievered and drilled before your prototype is finished.

Unless its got other than round holes, haven`t got a USB or rocker switch sized drill bit...

[Adam Aglionby]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 1:35:53 PM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
> On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:19:28 UTC, T i m wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT+00:00), jim <k> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>

>

> So not one of those sub £1000 printers ....
> don;t get them confused with the somewhat better 3D printers I think the one downsatairs was £80K.
>

Hope it`s on lease...

Seen Z Corp full colour powder printer been rescued from skip, original owner 100K+ USD less than 5 years ago.

expensive usually buys you proprietary consumables and a service contract, not necessarily reliability or print quality.

> >
> > So, if I want a case for a Raspberry Pi I'll see if I can find
> > something suitable on the net (no point re-inventing the wheel)
>
> maybe you'd like to say how long it takes to print a pi box I'd say a couple of hours, and can you work out the cost of the plastic used .
>
>
> and if
> > not, design and print something that will be ready and useable quicker
> > that I could get to even Maplins and back (and the chances the time,
> > fuel and item would cost way more than the cost to produce the item on
> > the printer (ignoring the cost of the printer etc), assuming it was in
> > stock and such a thing existed etc.
>
> Depending how you count such things.
>
> >
> > But hey, no one is forcing anyone to get, do or buy anything ... just
> > those of us who have seem to agree they are a very useful facility /
> > tool. ;-)
>
> Of course they are but for most it's like buying a printer and paper to print your own holiday snaps or postcards.
> Its the learnign curve that is the problem.

Tinkercad is simple enough for primary school kids.

>
> Tell you what I can buy a pi case for under £6 how much coupld you make a pi case for ?

Without getting Cura to give a better estimate say 50 grams, 17 quid kilo, about 85p + printer time.

[whisky-dave]

On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:47:19 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 11:20:11 AM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
>
> >
> > and it;s the closest I'm likley to get to a star trek replicator.
>
> :-)
>
> > I have 2 in the lab.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >The idea that one could feed it with plastic from the kitchen bin
> or what you might be able to do that you
> > > otherwise couldn't).
> >
> > You can produce lots of toys to go in chriostmas crackers, which you can buy at a fraction of the cost of printing them yourself.
>
> 3D printing did sort out my entire Christmas list but then it was things not available in any shops ;-)

You just don't know where those types of shops are. ;-)

> > > I'd rate it alongside (re/)building and regularly using your own audio
> > > system or kiln, pole lathe, old car or motorbike or even fishtank,
> > > where some effort / cost / involvement goes into the initial setup but
> > > then after that you continue to get use / enjoyment out of it (at
> > > minimal cost and can add things as you go).
> >
> > and if you never get bored of making yuor own custom chess pieces it's fine.
>
> Forgot about D&D figures and n sided dice ;-)

Compareed to what you can buy fully painted and as yet I don't know of a home system that can print in metal.
But you can print dreidels until the cows come home.

> > The number of stidetns that want to make a box for their project.....
> > in the time it takes to design and get right you can buy a box and have it delievered and drilled before your prototype is finished.
>
> Unless its got other than round holes, haven`t got a USB or rocker switch sized drill bit...

The above existed a long time before 3D printers.
We have punches and files all sorts of things to make holes.

[whisky-dave]

On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:56:25 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 1:35:53 PM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:19:28 UTC, T i m wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT+00:00), jim <k> wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
>
> >
> > So not one of those sub £1000 printers ....
> > don;t get them confused with the somewhat better 3D printers I think the one downsatairs was £80K.
> >
>
> Hope it`s on lease...

No idea.
I heard we're getting a better one for £250k 8 heads, and training to use it.
In fact we are employing someone almost purley for that printer such things need looking after.

>
> Seen Z Corp full colour powder printer been rescued from skip, original owner 100K+ USD less than 5 years ago.

One of the heads on ours has gone the other the ribbon cable is faulty but when it;s in use 5+ hours a day them left on over night things go wrong.
A bit of a draft and that too can cause problems.

> expensive usually buys you proprietary consumables and a service contract, not necessarily reliability or print quality.
>
>
> > >
> > > So, if I want a case for a Raspberry Pi I'll see if I can find
> > > something suitable on the net (no point re-inventing the wheel)
> >
> > maybe you'd like to say how long it takes to print a pi box I'd say a couple of hours, and can you work out the cost of the plastic used .
> >
> >
> > and if
> > > not, design and print something that will be ready and useable quicker
> > > that I could get to even Maplins and back (and the chances the time,
> > > fuel and item would cost way more than the cost to produce the item on
> > > the printer (ignoring the cost of the printer etc), assuming it was in
> > > stock and such a thing existed etc.
> >
> > Depending how you count such things.
> >
> > >
> > > But hey, no one is forcing anyone to get, do or buy anything ... just
> > > those of us who have seem to agree they are a very useful facility /
> > > tool. ;-)
> >
> > Of course they are but for most it's like buying a printer and paper to print your own holiday snaps or postcards.
> > Its the learnign curve that is the problem.
>
> Tinkercad is simple enough for primary school kids.

a lot of schools have brought such things then find they can't afford to run them.


> > Tell you what I can buy a pi case for under £6 how much could you make a pi case for ?

>
> Without getting Cura to give a better estimate say 50 grams, 17 quid kilo, about 85p + printer time.

How long in printer time.

you'd have thought with such devices yuo could turn out Pi boxes by the dozen for a quid or so, but no ones doing it.

[Adam Aglionby]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 2:15:19 PM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
> On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:56:25 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 1:35:53 PM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:19:28 UTC, T i m wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT+00:00), jim <k> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> >
> > >
> > > So not one of those sub £1000 printers ....
> > > don;t get them confused with the somewhat better 3D printers I think the one downsatairs was £80K.
> > >
> >
> > Hope it`s on lease...
>
> No idea.
> I heard we're getting a better one for £250k 8 heads, and training to use it.
> In fact we are employing someone almost purley for that printer such things need looking after.
>

Just passing the room sized photocopier stage of development with 3D printing.

>
> >
> > Seen Z Corp full colour powder printer been rescued from skip, original owner 100K+ USD less than 5 years ago.
>
> One of the heads on ours has gone the other the ribbon cable is faulty but when it;s in use 5+ hours a day them left on over night things go wrong.
> A bit of a draft and that too can cause problems.
>

My 2 300 quid printers run almost 24/7 at moment, they have been remarkably reliable .

Enclosure is always a good idea, old rack cabs popular choice as well.

> > expensive usually buys you proprietary consumables and a service contract, not necessarily reliability or print quality.
> >

snip<

> > > Of course they are but for most it's like buying a printer and paper to print your own holiday snaps or postcards.
> > > Its the learnign curve that is the problem.
> >
> > Tinkercad is simple enough for primary school kids.
>
> a lot of schools have brought such things then find they can't afford to run them.
>

Makes me weep seeing expensive sophisticated stge lighting equipment that schools bought and then the person who undertsood them left..

Running costs are cheap, its understanding of something that is still part black art part engineering thats lacking.

>
> > > Tell you what I can buy a pi case for under £6 how much could you make a pi case for ?
> >
> > Without getting Cura to give a better estimate say 50 grams, 17 quid kilo, about 85p + printer time.
>
> How long in printer time.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:922740

pi 2 case , 2 part , unusual cutouts vesa mount, Cura slicer recons 4 hrs 44 @ 29 grams 60p in plastic but 5 hours odd of print time pulling just under 100W.

>
> you'd have thought with such devices yuo could turn out Pi boxes by the dozen for a quid or so, but no ones doing it.

Need to add value ;-) retro pi cases are popular

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3D-Printed-NES-inspired-Raspberry-Pi-case-for-the-B-V2B-and-V3B-/232219316795

[dennis@home]

On 28/02/2017 11:56, jim wrote:

>> and if you never get bored of making yuor own custom chess pieces it's fine.
>>
>> The number of stidetns that want to make a box for their project.....
>> in the time it takes to design and get right you can buy a box and have it delievered and drilled before your prototype is finished.
>>
>
> Ah a breath of reality :-)
>

A total lack of imagination in whiskey and the students.
They need to look at war gaming, then you know how to make money out of
a 3d printer.

[dennis@home]

On 28/02/2017 13:35, whisky-dave wrote:
> On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:19:28 UTC, T i m wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT+00:00), jim <k> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> The number of stidetns that want to make a box for their project.....
>>>> in the time it takes to design and get right you can buy a box and have it delievered and drilled before your prototype is finished.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ah a breath of reality :-)
>>
>> Sorry but I'd suggest it's more 'a bad workman blaming their tools' or
>> the kit really is bad (it happens and no unlikely in an educational
>> establishment when such things are often abused).
>
> Partly true but nit everyone is born with the ability to use these things.

Nobody is born with the ability to use any tool.
Its down to education and your establishment seems very poor at education.

>
>>
>> Others here who actually run 3d printers seem to be able to use them
>> as the tools they are, accepting that the whole subject is still
>> fairly new in the diy / home arena of course.
>
> So for the majority still pretty much a waste of time and effort.
>
>>
>> I have both just printed (from the web) and designed and printed many
>> many items that have worked perfectly fist time and part of that is
>> having a good printer and the other the skills to use it (to some
>> level of that).
>
> So not one of those sub £1000 printers ....
> don;t get them confused with the somewhat better 3D printers I think the one downsatairs was £80K.

Are you as much an expert in 3d printing and design as in photography?

8<

> Tell you what I can buy a pi case for under £6 how much coupld you make a pi case for ?
>

About 40 grams of plastic at ~£12/kg + about 200W for 2 hours.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 11:20:11 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
> On Monday, 27 February 2017 18:49:46 UTC, T i m wrote:

> > On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:31:50 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

> > >The idea that one could feed it with plastic from the kitchen bin
> >
> > Well, the bigger printers use plastic in a granular form so as long as
> > you got enough of the right price it's entirely possible.
>
> It'll always be the wrong sort of plastic in the bin , the sort that clogs nozzles and produces noxious fumes.

HDPE produces no fumes and hot moulds nicely, as do some others. Why would it clog the nozzles?


NT

[whisky-dave]

On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 15:02:54 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 2:15:19 PM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:56:25 UTC, Adam Aglionby wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 1:35:53 PM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 13:19:28 UTC, T i m wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT+00:00), jim <k> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > So not one of those sub £1000 printers ....
> > > > don;t get them confused with the somewhat better 3D printers I think the one downsatairs was £80K.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hope it`s on lease...
> >
> > No idea.
> > I heard we're getting a better one for £250k 8 heads, and training to use it.
> > In fact we are employing someone almost purley for that printer such things need looking after.
> >
>
> Just passing the room sized photocopier stage of development with 3D printing.

or the ZX sprectum stage.

> > > Seen Z Corp full colour powder printer been rescued from skip, original owner 100K+ USD less than 5 years ago.
> >
> > One of the heads on ours has gone the other the ribbon cable is faulty but when it;s in use 5+ hours a day them left on over night things go wrong.
> > A bit of a draft and that too can cause problems.
> >
>
> My 2 300 quid printers run almost 24/7 at moment, they have been remarkably reliable .

Did you have a dozen or so students using them including loading up the spools and lingering around the printer didn't think so.
One studetn asked if they could use the laser cutter then went over to the pillar drill ot work out where the laser light came from !
Another came and asked me what size scewers I had, I said I donlt have any he said yes you do my friend got some from you.. he was talking about screws.
This morning I gave a teaching assistant a hammer as she wanted to take apart a speaker to show how it's made, as she help it and retracked it back the claws hit her bare shoulder grazing it slightly....
Working with students and working on yuo;re own with equipment is quite differnt.

> Enclosure is always a good idea, old rack cabs popular choice as well.

And not sitting there watching it chatting to yuor friends or moving the table is another.

> >
>
> Makes me weep seeing expensive sophisticated stge lighting equipment that schools bought and then the person who undertsood them left..

Same with any equipment realy.

>
> Running costs are cheap,

Depends if it's used correctly.

>it's understanding of something that is still part black art part engineering thats lacking.

experience too.

> > > > Tell you what I can buy a pi case for under £6 how much could you make a pi case for ?
> > >
> > > Without getting Cura to give a better estimate say 50 grams, 17 quid kilo, about 85p + printer time.
> >
> > How long in printer time.
>
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:922740
>
> pi 2 case , 2 part , unusual cutouts vesa mount, Cura slicer recons 4 hrs 44 @ 29 grams 60p in plastic but 5 hours odd of print time pulling just under 100W.

and that's if it works first time, and having something already as a file.

The problem is as a studetn thast has never used teh software or a 3D printer do you really think it's cheaper to design you;re own pi box or any box and get it printered.
if I want 20 pi boxes for friday I'd send off to RS or similar.

> > you'd have thought with such devices yuo could turn out Pi boxes by the dozen for a quid or so, but no ones doing it.
>
> Need to add value ;-) retro pi cases are popular
>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3D-Printed-NES-inspired-Raspberry-Pi-case-for-the-B-V2B-and-V3B-/232219316795

Well I won't be happy until I get one of these . ;-)

£d silicone printer.

http://imgur.com/a/6dhZu

[whisky-dave]

I was refering to the fact that you just can't put any plastic, I donlt even thiuk you can reuse the plastic easily as you'd have to find a way or reforming it.

reminds me of a friend that thought about buying a couple to print plastic aka nylon screws, washers, nuts when he saw how much the nylon ones are, the thought he'd be making a fortune juist sitting there printing of nuts and bolts.

AT the time he didnlt even know the basic differnce between the types of plastic you can buy.


Of course somne can use 3D printers without any problems but some or many have problems.

https://all3dp.com/common-3d-printing-problems-3d-printer-troubleshooting-guide/

[T i m]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 04:15:11 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
<whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>> My 2 300 quid printers run almost 24/7 at moment, they have been remarkably reliable .
>
>Did you have a dozen or so students using them including loading up the spools and lingering around the printer didn't think so.

Sounds like the workman blaming the tools again dave? That said, I did
excuse that to some degree because of your environment but I bet the
printer itself was fine?

<snip>

>> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:922740
>>
>> pi 2 case , 2 part , unusual cutouts vesa mount, Cura slicer recons 4 hrs 44 @ 29 grams 60p in plastic but 5 hours odd of print time pulling just under 100W.

(I was think that 100W wouldn't be continuous either? On our printer
the extruder is probably powered (PWM) maybe 70% of the time and the
bed maybe %50)?

>
> and that's if it works first time,

No reason it shouldn't, if you know what you are doing?

> and having something already as a file.

Whilst that helps, not having an existing model to work from might
only add seconds to the job. Like the 4 little 'top hat' mounts I
designed and printed to enable a 2.5" to 3.5" hard drive adapter tray
to be mounted in a slide mount PC case. From thought to use was
probably no more than 10 minutes and they worked first time.

>
>The problem is as a studetn thast has never used teh software or a 3D printer do you really think it's cheaper to design you;re own pi box or any box and get it printered.

That was never the point.

>if I want 20 pi boxes for friday I'd send off to RS or similar.

Yes, but that was never the point. These 3D printers aren't about
volume or speed, however, I'm not sure if anyone would deliver you one
box at 3pm on a Sunday and for less than £1 (all in)?

Cheers, T i m

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 12:26:01 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:

> On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 21:39:26 UTC, tabby wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 11:20:11 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
> > > On Monday, 27 February 2017 18:49:46 UTC, T i m wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:31:50 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
> >
> > > > >The idea that one could feed it with plastic from the kitchen bin
> > > >
> > > > Well, the bigger printers use plastic in a granular form so as long as
> > > > you got enough of the right price it's entirely possible.
> > >
> > > It'll always be the wrong sort of plastic in the bin , the sort that clogs nozzles and produces noxious fumes.
> >
> > HDPE produces no fumes and hot moulds nicely, as do some others. Why would it clog the nozzles?
> >
>
> I was refering to the fact that you just can't put any plastic,

Yes, I took that as obvious

> I donlt even thiuk you can reuse the plastic easily as you'd have to find a way or reforming it.

what does that mean? No chemical change is required when moulding thermoplastics, and the physical change is simply wash & shredder.


NT

[dennis@home]

On 01/03/2017 12:15, whisky-dave wrote:

> Well I won't be happy until I get one of these . ;-)
>
> £d silicone printer.
>
> http://imgur.com/a/6dhZu
>

You can probably get an extra small hole sex doll without you having to
design and print your own.

[whisky-dave]

On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 12:37:18 UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 04:15:11 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
> <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> My 2 300 quid printers run almost 24/7 at moment, they have been remarkably reliable .
> >
> >Did you have a dozen or so students using them including loading up the spools and lingering around the printer didn't think so.
>
> Sounds like the workman blaming the tools again dave?

Wasn't the best of tools, there were better but we didn't want to spend the money on a better tool. Same with most things.

>That said, I did
> excuse that to some degree because of your environment but I bet the
> printer itself was fine?

Like all printers and cars are fine.

> <snip>
>
> >> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:922740
> >>
> >> pi 2 case , 2 part , unusual cutouts vesa mount, Cura slicer recons 4 hrs 44 @ 29 grams 60p in plastic but 5 hours odd of print time pulling just under 100W.
>
> (I was think that 100W wouldn't be continuous either? On our printer
> the extruder is probably powered (PWM) maybe 70% of the time and the
> bed maybe %50)?
> >
> > and that's if it works first time,
>
> No reason it shouldn't, if you know what you are doing?

That's the problem with teaching for a lot of the time it is the first time
that that person will use it.

> > and having something already as a file.
>
> Whilst that helps, not having an existing model to work from might
> only add seconds to the job. Like the 4 little 'top hat' mounts I
> designed and printed to enable a 2.5" to 3.5" hard drive adapter tray
> to be mounted in a slide mount PC case. From thought to use was
> probably no more than 10 minutes and they worked first time.

That's OK for you but what if they are 10 students using it and you're in the queue ? You have to rely on the student before you getting theirs working too.

> >The problem is as a studetn thast has never used teh software or a 3D printer do you really think it's cheaper to design you;re own pi box or any box and get it printered.
>
> That was never the point.

It is for use or rathe rthe students they';; spend weeks at it ignoring what they should be doing.

>
> >if I want 20 pi boxes for friday I'd send off to RS or similar.
>
> Yes, but that was never the point. These 3D printers aren't about
> volume or speed, however, I'm not sure if anyone would deliver you one
> box at 3pm on a Sunday and for less than £1 (all in)?

Not interested we are closed on a sunday, even amazon can't deliver on a sunday.

[whisky-dave]

Exactly my point but some are claiming a 3D printer even if you know what you are doing is cheaper and quicker, not always the case.

[T i m]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:07:29 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
<whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>That said, I did
>> excuse that to some degree because of your environment but I bet the
>> printer itself was fine?
>
>Like all printers and cars are fine.

They are? I didn't say that. So, are you saying the printer itself was
bad or not? (Yes/No).
>
<snip>

>> > and that's if it works first time,
>>
>> No reason it shouldn't, if you know what you are doing?
>
>That's the problem with teaching for a lot of the time it is the first time
>that that person will use it.

Ah, so we are back to the 'workman' then? ;-)

>
>
>> > and having something already as a file.
>>
>> Whilst that helps, not having an existing model to work from might
>> only add seconds to the job. Like the 4 little 'top hat' mounts I
>> designed and printed to enable a 2.5" to 3.5" hard drive adapter tray
>> to be mounted in a slide mount PC case. From thought to use was
>> probably no more than 10 minutes and they worked first time.
>
>That's OK for you

And thousands of others?

>but what if they are 10 students using it and you're in the queue ?

Not sure what that has got to do with the user skill or machine
ability.

> You have to rely on the student before you getting theirs working too.

Quite, like having to queue up to use the 'classroom PC' or any shared
tool I guess. Still not sure what that has got to do with the 3D
printer? Maybe, instead of spending on what sounds like a ludicrous
amount on one printer they could have bought 1/ student or a better
VFM one?

>
>
>> >The problem is as a studetn thast has never used teh software or a 3D printer do you really think it's cheaper to design you;re own pi box or any box and get it printered.

Now you are changing the goalposts mate. You are trying to drag user
skill (or the lack thereof) and the potential cost of the final
product into the point about how good the 3D printer is (or isn't) at
doing the job for which it was designed?

>>
>> That was never the point.
>
>It is for use or rathe rthe students they';; spend weeks at it ignoring what they should be doing.

Then it sounds to me like they are using the wrong tool for the job?

When our daughter was on a '3D Design' course at the local college, a
3D printer would be the *exact* right tool to have at their disposal.
If you are only helping these students weld or build electronic
projects (that need cases) then it's the wrong tool.

>
>>
>> >if I want 20 pi boxes for friday I'd send off to RS or similar.
>>
>> Yes, but that was never the point. These 3D printers aren't about
>> volume or speed, however, I'm not sure if anyone would deliver you one
>> box at 3pm on a Sunday and for less than £1 (all in)?
>
>Not interested we are closed on a sunday, even amazon can't deliver on a sunday.

Quite. However, I (or thousands of others) *do* like having the
opportunity and freedom to be able to print such a thing any time we
want.

Please just accept you are potentially using the wrong tool for the
job and / or don't properly know how to use the tool in the fist
place. There is probably nothing wrong with the 3D printer you have
there and it's just a shame it's not in the right hands / department /
management.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

No one here (with any practical experience of 3D printers) has or
would *ever* say that 3D printers always offer a quicker or cheaper
way of doing anything. They never could they never will, that is not
their point (not *always*).

However, there will and are *very often* tasks that the 3D printer can
do that IS both faster and cheaper than the typical alternatives ...
and that's partly why they exist in the first place.

If I had to buy (and pay to have delivered) all the things that I've
made so far, it would probably cover the cost of the printer.

If I had to pay someone to design and make (not necessarily print
even) everything that I've printed so far I know I would be quids in.

Also the money and time I have save by being able to do something like
quickly design and print a drilling template or lathe mandrel has
further insured that the printer has easily paid for itself.

YMMV of course, but probably not because of the abilities of your
printer. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 04:52:07 -0800 (PST), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

>
>> I donlt even thiuk you can reuse the plastic easily as you'd have to find a way or reforming it.
>
>what does that mean? No chemical change is required when moulding thermoplastics, and the physical change is simply wash & shredder.
>

It means his outlook is so negative / blinkered he doesn't realise all
3D printers require their feed-stock in a filament form. ;-)

Like the printer that prints the bodyshell parts for the Strati.

Cheers, T i m

[whisky-dave]

On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 15:35:18 UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:07:29 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
> <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >>That said, I did
> >> excuse that to some degree because of your environment but I bet the
> >> printer itself was fine?
> >
> >Like all printers and cars are fine.
>
> They are? I didn't say that. So, are you saying the printer itself was
> bad or not? (Yes/No).

It was OK for a year or so with limited use, not really robust enough for student use and not really as useful has hoped.

> >That's the problem with teaching for a lot of the time it is the first time
> >that that person will use it.
>
> Ah, so we are back to the 'workman' then? ;-)

Or too flimsey a unit for teh eventual use it got, but it had good specs for the price. If it were in a home enviroment with one or two people using it one or twice a week I'd probbaly be fine.

> >> > and having something already as a file.
> >>
> >> Whilst that helps, not having an existing model to work from might
> >> only add seconds to the job. Like the 4 little 'top hat' mounts I
> >> designed and printed to enable a 2.5" to 3.5" hard drive adapter tray
> >> to be mounted in a slide mount PC case. From thought to use was
> >> probably no more than 10 minutes and they worked first time.
> >
> >That's OK for you
>
> And thousands of others?

maybe but doesn't it make you wonder why these so many others about.

https://www.makerbot.com/media-center/2012/09/19/a-whole-new-makerbot-introducing-replicator-2-desktop-3d-printer

strange that they no longer make it if it was so good, but these things change pretty quickly sometime you just can;t keep replacing everything and hope it all worls OK for a decade or so.
After a head went and a motor and the ribbon cable needed replacing it's been religated to if you just want one colour then use this.

Any idea why they have differnt models ?

>
> >but what if they are 10 students using it and you're in the queue ?
>
> Not sure what that has got to do with the user skill or machine
> ability.

That explains it.

>
> > You have to rely on the student before you getting theirs working too.
>
> Quite, like having to queue up to use the 'classroom PC' or any shared
> tool I guess. Still not sure what that has got to do with the 3D
> printer? Maybe, instead of spending on what sounds like a ludicrous
> amount on one printer they could have bought 1/ student or a better
> VFM one?

I've no idea who or why it was brought. Two years ago it was heavily used I still have some of the poutput from it laying around various versions.

> >> >The problem is as a studetn thast has never used teh software or a 3D printer do you really think it's cheaper to design you;re own pi box or any box and get it printered.
>
> Now you are changing the goalposts mate.

What do you think it was brought for then.

>You are trying to drag user
> skill (or the lack thereof) and the potential cost of the final
> product into the point about how good the 3D printer is (or isn't) at
> doing the job for which it was designed?

That's how yuo evaluate the usuefulness of any product it seemd OK for 2 years I'm not sur ehow long it is meant to last. Some think you can print your own spare parts as it's a 3D printer.

> >> That was never the point.
> >
> >It is for use or rathe rthe students they';; spend weeks at it ignoring what they should be doing.
>
> Then it sounds to me like they are using the wrong tool for the job?

Are you saying it can't make a 3D box.

As I tell teh students DO NOT start making a box for yuor project until you have a working project, you WILL NOT get extra marks for making a fancy box.

>
> When our daughter was on a '3D Design' course at the local college, a
> 3D printer would be the *exact* right tool to have at their disposal.

But which one.
The new one has the water solubale plastic.

> If you are only helping these students weld or build electronic
> projects (that need cases) then it's the wrong tool.

Some used it for making cogs others for making a crane type structure which would have been better if maxde with lego or mecanno certaily much quicker.

> >
> >Not interested we are closed on a sunday, even amazon can't deliver on a sunday.
>
> Quite. However, I (or thousands of others) *do* like having the
> opportunity and freedom to be able to print such a thing any time we
> want.

good for them but spending a grand on a 3D printer might be a waste of time.
Just like when people send off to get large prints done it;'s usually better to get someone else do it than by a poster printer for yuor selfies.
Fine by a £70 printer but a photographer would soon find it unusable, but it'll be fine for most.

>
> Please just accept you are potentially using the wrong tool for the
> job and / or don't properly know how to use the tool in the fist
> place. There is probably nothing wrong with the 3D printer you have
> there and it's just a shame it's not in the right hands / department /
> management.

Depends what use you want it to have and to put it to.
If yuo want to spend a few hundred or a grand to print a couple of washers any one will do.
But most are gimmicks that won't produce the quality you want.

It's a bit like drones at the moment sure you can get some good pictures from them but after the original wow what a great thing ......

[Rod Speed]

"whisky-dave" <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0c26616f-bb10-45c4...@googlegroups.com...

Yeah, should fix the problem with your current blow up dolls.

[T i m]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 08:37:59 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
<whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:

<sip>

>> So, are you saying the printer itself was
>> bad or not? (Yes/No).
>
>It was OK for a year or so with limited use,

Ok ...

> not really robust enough for student use

So the wrong tool for the job then? (But is there anything that can
resist the wrong student)?

>and not really as useful has hoped.

See above ... and false expectations / poor purchasing decisions.

>
>
>> >That's the problem with teaching for a lot of the time it is the first time
>> >that that person will use it.
>>
>> Ah, so we are back to the 'workman' then? ;-)
>
>Or too flimsey a unit for teh eventual use it got,

Yes, bad workman. I wonder if it would have been 'too flimsy for me?

>but it had good specs for the price.

Even more reason to say 'bad workman' (potentially anyway).

>If it were in a home enviroment with one or two people using it one or twice a week I'd probbaly be fine.

I don't think it really matters how much it's used (within reason and
for a good design, even if cheap) as many of these home printers *are*
used all day and every day. Our has often been running most of the day
for 6 days a week and rarely suffered because of that.
>
<snip>

>> And thousands of others?
>
>maybe but doesn't it make you wonder why these so many others about.
>
>https://www.makerbot.com/media-center/2012/09/19/a-whole-new-makerbot-introducing-replicator-2-desktop-3d-printer

It's called 'evolution' mate. ;-)

>
>strange that they no longer make it if it was so good,

Same with many things in life these days (except the basic Nokias
apparently). ;-)

>but these things change pretty quickly sometime you just can;t keep replacing everything and hope it all worls OK for a decade or so.

I'll tell you in another 8.5 years. However, if you were talking cart
wheels then you will probably find they have pretty much evolved to be
as good as they can get. The whole (domestic especially) 3D printing
market is still quite new so the market is still finding it's feet.
It's also very much a hobby for many (like me) so that and what it
entails are part of the whole point.

>After a head went and a motor and the ribbon cable needed replacing it's been religated to if you just want one colour then use this.

That doesn't sound like a bad thing (multiple colours / extruders all
add to the complexity and reduce the reliability).

>
> Any idea why they have differnt models ?

The same reason why there is more than one make and model of
motorcycle, car or house I'm guessing?

>>
>> >but what if they are 10 students using it and you're in the queue ?
>>
>> Not sure what that has got to do with the user skill or machine
>> ability.
>
>That explains it.

To you possibly! So, a queue of people wanting to use something makes
that something bad or the fact that they don't know how to use it or
accidentally break it (because of that) it's a bad machine? I'm not
saying it's a good, the best or even suitable machine but that could
be because it's actually a bad design or isn't used by skilled people
(or people with the right approach).

>
>>
>> > You have to rely on the student before you getting theirs working too.
>>
>> Quite, like having to queue up to use the 'classroom PC' or any shared
>> tool I guess. Still not sure what that has got to do with the 3D
>> printer? Maybe, instead of spending on what sounds like a ludicrous
>> amount on one printer they could have bought 1/ student or a better
>> VFM one?
>
>I've no idea who or why it was brought.

Could you find out, OOI?

>Two years ago it was heavily used I still have some of the poutput from it laying around various versions.

Ok, so it did work reasonably well once.>

>
>
>> >> >The problem is as a studetn thast has never used teh software or a 3D printer do you really think it's cheaper to design you;re own pi box or any box and get it printered.
>>
>> Now you are changing the goalposts mate.
>
>What do you think it was brought for then.

How do I know ... you don't even know! ;-)

>
>>You are trying to drag user
>> skill (or the lack thereof) and the potential cost of the final
>> product into the point about how good the 3D printer is (or isn't) at
>> doing the job for which it was designed?
>
>That's how yuo evaluate the usuefulness of any product it seemd OK for 2 years I'm not sur ehow long it is meant to last.

Well, unless it's actually been worn out and the parts not available
then that's possibly something else (again, part of a bad decision).

>Some think you can print your own spare parts as it's a 3D printer.

Erm, most of our 3D printer was printed on another 3D printer just
like it? We have printed all the (many) plastic parts for two more
printers on our 3D printer. That was part of the whole 'Rep Rap' deal.

>
>
>> >> That was never the point.
>> >
>> >It is for use or rathe rthe students they';; spend weeks at it ignoring what they should be doing.
>>
>> Then it sounds to me like they are using the wrong tool for the job?
>
>Are you saying it can't make a 3D box.

Apparently yours can't? Most of the others out there can?

>
>As I tell teh students DO NOT start making a box for yuor project until you have a working project, you WILL NOT get extra marks for making a fancy box.

Quite right too.

>
>
>>
>> When our daughter was on a '3D Design' course at the local college, a
>> 3D printer would be the *exact* right tool to have at their disposal.
>
>But which one.

'A' (worthwhile) 3D printer ... same with any purchase like that.

>The new one has the water solubale plastic.

Any (dual extruder) printer can use the water soluble support material
potentially (inc ours).

>
>> If you are only helping these students weld or build electronic
>> projects (that need cases) then it's the wrong tool.
>
>Some used it for making cogs others for making a crane type structure which would have been better if maxde with lego or mecanno certaily much quicker.

But I'm not sure they would learn as much about both the production of
mechanical components and the stresses found within them by using any
pre made part. Structural materials have a structure themselves and a
bad 3d print would be a good way of seeing that (delamination
especially).

>
>> >
>> >Not interested we are closed on a sunday, even amazon can't deliver on a sunday.
>>
>> Quite. However, I (or thousands of others) *do* like having the
>> opportunity and freedom to be able to print such a thing any time we
>> want.
>
>good for them but spending a grand on a 3D printer might be a waste of time.

A fool and their money ...

>Just like when people send off to get large prints done it;'s usually better to get someone else do it than by a poster printer for yuor selfies.

Of course it is ... unless you want to print what you want, when you
want or want to make the doing of that part of a hobby or interest.

>Fine by a £70 printer but a photographer would soon find it unusable, but it'll be fine for most.

Sure, but you are clouding the picture again. It's like saying there
was no point me building a kitcar, (or rowing boat or kayak etc) when
you can buy such things ready made or hire them?

>>
>> Please just accept you are potentially using the wrong tool for the
>> job and / or don't properly know how to use the tool in the fist
>> place. There is probably nothing wrong with the 3D printer you have
>> there and it's just a shame it's not in the right hands / department /
>> management.
>
>Depends what use you want it to have and to put it to.

*Exactly*.

>If yuo want to spend a few hundred or a grand to print a couple of washers any one will do.

Except your one apparently! ;

>But most are gimmicks that won't produce the quality you want.

In your expert opinion I'm guessing?

>
>It's a bit like drones at the moment sure you can get some good pictures from them but after the original wow what a great thing ......

But the point remains, you *can* still potentially get pictures of
things you wouldn't normally / easily be able to, novelty or
otherwise.

The novelty of our 3d printer didn't wear off after the fist print,
quite the opposite in fact, especially once you realise how easy they
are to use and what you can do with them.

Now, if you gave one to a bunch of gibbons ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[dennis@home]

On 01/03/2017 15:07, whisky-dave wrote:

> Not interested we are closed on a sunday, even amazon can't deliver on a sunday.

amazon will deliver the same day including sundays.

[Bob Eager]

And Screwfix have for a long time.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[T i m]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 05:37:36 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>Ikea Lack tables in various combinations appear to be 3D printer enclosure top choice.

Oooerr. ;-)
>
<snip>

>
>Also have a Malyan M150, 160 quid when Hobby King were clearing UK stock, it shows even sharper cost reduction, plastic idlers with squeaky bearings.

You love yer Wanhao Duplicator i3 (and clones) don't you. ;-)

>
>>
>> When we first started putting the MM together (and this was my fist
>> ever exposure to such) there was lots of 'WTF' because much of it
>> looked 'iffy'. However, as we got used to it and have had need to
>> strip stuff down or upgrade / modify I think we have concluded how
>> well it was thought out.
>
>Think now riding on shoulders of people who took it through the ZX80 and 81 stage and 3D printing is at the Spectrum 48 stage,

For the home user you mean as haven't these things been about
commercially for quite a time now?

>interesting and of use to a wider audience but still a niche that requires tinkering.

True, to varying degrees of 'tinkering'. I'm glad to have built ours
(rather than just buying one (nothing wrong with doing that either of
course, needs / interests must)) because then you got to know of every
wire, screw and module and therefore *might* be able to build it in a
way that makes it last longer and run better. Having a 'Mechanical
sympathy' I think they call it ... making sure everything is aligned
and that things run smoothly and doing something about it if they
don't. It was like the hotbed driving FET. It worked when driven
directly but I didn't like the temperature of the FET and the load it
put on the PCN and connector. So I remoted the load first though a
solid state relay and then a straight mechanical one.

>
>>
>> We have sort have taken for granted (since the first test cube print
>> really) that it will be pretty close dimensionally to whatever we had
>> drawn on the screen and the finish of even fairly large surfaces have
>> been about as goof as you could imagine them to be. No blobs, no
>> delamination, no joggles etc etc.
>
>Previously had jobs run via 3D Hubs on Zortrax M200 , Ultimaker 2 and Form 1 , Wanhao can turn out similar quality for my needs,

Same here with the MendelMax. We typically run with a .5mm nozzle
because:

1) We generally print bigger functional things (rather than ornaments)
so it prints faster.

2) A bigger nozzle is easier to keep clear.

> Malyan needs a flex coupler to eliminate Z wobble.

How does that show OOI? The MM has two 8mm smooth rods on the Z and I
guess a bit of additional support via the 2 x 8mm Z drive rods (that
are just studding in our case).
>
<snip>

>
>Saw somone who put a shield on one side of hotend, remote monitoring of print, used the X carriage to knock print off bed when cooled and start next one ;-)

Yeah, I saw that somewhere. Your own little production line. ;-)


Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 12:15:13 PM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:

> >
> > Just passing the room sized photocopier stage of development with 3D printing.
>
> or the ZX sprectum stage.
>

When the Speccy came out , banks were still running on mainframes.

>

> One studetn asked if they could use the laser cutter then went over to the pillar drill ot work out where the laser light came from !

Bets laugh had in ages , can think of couple of people who would ask just that question :-)

.
> Working with students and working on yuo;re own with equipment is quite differnt.
>

You have my admiration for your patience , point about teaching being first time someone uses something is well made.

>
> > Enclosure is always a good idea, old rack cabs popular choice as well.
>
> And not sitting there watching it chatting to yuor friends or moving the table is another.
>

Rack cab with lockable plexi door and cement block in base?

>
>
>
> > >
> >
> > Makes me weep seeing expensive sophisticated stge lighting equipment that schools bought and then the person who undertsood them left..
>
> Same with any equipment realy.

Guess so , makes for some lightly used gear appearing on the surplus market , so not all bad :-)

>
>
> The problem is as a studetn thast has never used teh software or a 3D printer do you really think it's cheaper to design you;re own pi box or any box and get it printered.

Think getting students introduced to the concepts as young as possible will only do them good.

When I was at secondary, school comp was a HP that read punchcard with an alpha LED display, computer club was filling in coding sheets in Fortran to go to Jordan Hill be returned week later with `error line 10`

Now nursery school kids are building things in Minecraft on their tablets.

> if I want 20 pi boxes for friday I'd send off to RS or similar.


>

> Well I won't be happy until I get one of these . ;-)
>
> £d silicone printer.
>
> http://imgur.com/a/6dhZu

Porn has been driver of home adoption of several technologies..

[Adam Aglionby]

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 9:04:17 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2017 05:37:36 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >Ikea Lack tables in various combinations appear to be 3D printer enclosure top choice.
>
> Oooerr. ;-)
> >
> <snip>
> >
> >Also have a Malyan M150, 160 quid when Hobby King were clearing UK stock, it shows even sharper cost reduction, plastic idlers with squeaky bearings.
>
> You love yer Wanhao Duplicator i3 (and clones) don't you. ;-)

Like good value, especially when it makes a good return :-)

Probably like larger build volume for next one though.

> >
> >>
> >> When we first started putting the MM together (and this was my fist
> >> ever exposure to such) there was lots of 'WTF' because much of it
> >> looked 'iffy'. However, as we got used to it and have had need to
> >> strip stuff down or upgrade / modify I think we have concluded how
> >> well it was thought out.
> >
> >Think now riding on shoulders of people who took it through the ZX80 and 81 stage and 3D printing is at the Spectrum 48 stage,
>
> For the home user you mean as haven't these things been about
> commercially for quite a time now?

Its called Fused Filament Modelling, FFM by most because Fused Deposition Modelling , FDM is a trademark of Stratasys, principle been around since 1990 , Stereolithography pre dates it by a few years.

Lots of money buys you top quality industrial design, nice icons on the touch screen and lovely ring bound documentation.

Allows you into the chipped spool buyers club, control of what goes in eliminates service calls for jams caused by wobbly width filament for example.

What it still ain`t buying you is significantly better quality output than a Chinese cheapy tuned up.

FFM/FDM isn`t only game in town though, next generation of very cheap resin printers coming along using phone and tablet screens as shutter for UV source.

Material Jetting machines like the Massivit 1800, build speed foot an hour in Z, are going to push speeds and applications up.

Yup , been commercially been available for more than 20 years but for wahtever reason beginning to climb the curve at rate.

It was like the hotbed driving FET. It worked when driven
> directly but I didn't like the temperature of the FET and the load it
> put on the PCN and connector. So I remoted the load first though a
> solid state relay and then a straight mechanical one.

Remote FET card is a common ebay item for 3D printers controllers :-)

> >
> >>
> >> We have sort have taken for granted (since the first test cube print
> >> really) that it will be pretty close dimensionally to whatever we had
> >> drawn on the screen and the finish of even fairly large surfaces have
> >> been about as goof as you could imagine them to be. No blobs, no
> >> delamination, no joggles etc etc.
> >
> >Previously had jobs run via 3D Hubs on Zortrax M200 , Ultimaker 2 and Form 1 , Wanhao can turn out similar quality for my needs,
>
> Same here with the MendelMax. We typically run with a .5mm nozzle
> because:
>
> 1) We generally print bigger functional things (rather than ornaments)
> so it prints faster.
>
> 2) A bigger nozzle is easier to keep clear.

Seen experiments with bored out, or just print a spool of glow in dark.., 1.0 mm nozzles, detail isn`t great but seems to work, 9 minute benchy.

>
> > Malyan needs a flex coupler to eliminate Z wobble.
>
> How does that show OOI? The MM has two 8mm smooth rods on the Z and I
> guess a bit of additional support via the 2 x 8mm Z drive rods (that
> are just studding in our case).

Banding, think the shaft in one stepper is slighty bent, so the z takes a little shift gently there and back over about 2 mm on Z.

As explained to me , rails should do the guiding and the leadscrews should do the driving not relying on them to hold the position, hence trying to isolate them with flexi couplers.

> >
> <snip>
> >
> >Saw somone who put a shield on one side of hotend, remote monitoring of print, used the X carriage to knock print off bed when cooled and start next one ;-)
>
> Yeah, I saw that somewhere. Your own little production line. ;-)
>
>

Makerbot had the conveyor belt on the Cupcake.

Whiskey , Makerbot is sometimes referred to as Takerbot after benefiting from open source cooperation then close sourcing it, all the marketing had to be paid for.


> Cheers, T i m

[whisky-dave]

It bloody well should do taking 2 mounths and costing 10K euros !

is that how much blowup dolls cost ?
No wonder people are buyiong 3D printers to make their own.

[whisky-dave]

On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 17:20:18 UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 08:37:59 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
> <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <sip>
>
> >> So, are you saying the printer itself was
> >> bad or not? (Yes/No).
> >
> >It was OK for a year or so with limited use,
>
> Ok ...

Expectations exceeded the printers ability.

> > not really robust enough for student use
>
> So the wrong tool for the job then? (But is there anything that can
> resist the wrong student)?

A thump from me would sort it ;-)

> >and not really as useful has hoped.
>
> See above ... and false expectations / poor purchasing decisions.

I'm not sure why ot was brought other than somethone though the students should have access to a 3D printer in this day and age.

> >> >That's the problem with teaching for a lot of the time it is the first time
> >> >that that person will use it.
> >>
> >> Ah, so we are back to the 'workman' then? ;-)
> >
> >Or too flimsey a unit for teh eventual use it got,
>
> Yes, bad workman. I wonder if it would have been 'too flimsy for me?

No idea, part of the problem was the software we know this because w eprinted the same object using difernt software packages, pon eworked the other just kept the head racing from side to side a dozen or more times then it started printing. Something to do with the way the software rasters.
One thing we found that deleting a line you didn't want, when it came to printing it the printed 'printed' the line as in movign but didnlt feed the filiment through so it just was there's oscillating for 5 mins or so printing nothing.

> >but it had good specs for the price.
>
> Even more reason to say 'bad workman' (potentially anyway).

"good' specs I should have said sounded good.
A bit like measuring the depth of 500 sheets of A4 that you know should be 50mm .

> I don't think it really matters how much it's used (within reason and
> for a good design, even if cheap) as many of these home printers *are*
> used all day and every day. Our has often been running most of the day
> for 6 days a week and rarely suffered because of that.

Our one the belt stretched , maybe you didn't notice. Maybe what you did was easy.
One of the first problems was when we printed a 'cup/trophy' we got cracking
just like others have.
https://all3dp.com/common-3d-printing-problems-3d-printer-troubleshooting-guide/#Cracks-In-Tall-Objects

> >> And thousands of others?
> >
> >maybe but doesn't it make you wonder why these so many others about.
> >
> >https://www.makerbot.com/media-center/2012/09/19/a-whole-new-makerbot-introducing-replicator-2-desktop-3d-printer
>
> It's called 'evolution' mate. ;-)

The problemm is that those that knnow least expect 'evolution' quicker.
It's like thos ethat say well we could send a 3D printer to Mars and print everything out we need, yeah sure.
That's almost as funny as Red Dwarf finding an spaceship that doesn't put crews in suspendended animation or a stasis fields which is really simple just put things in a freezer and they last much longer don't they.
But they £d printed the crew on arrival the funny thinmg ws that they got a misfeed. Now Who ahsn;t had a paper misfeed on a printer was it because the user is stupid or the printer was crap ?

> >strange that they no longer make it if it was so good,
>
> Same with many things in life these days (except the basic Nokias
> apparently). ;-)

But at least they come in nice colours.
I'm suprised no-ones printing 3D covers for iphones must be a market for them, just buy a £500 printer and you're sorted surely.

> >but these things change pretty quickly sometime you just can;t keep replacing everything and hope it all worls OK for a decade or so.
>
> I'll tell you in another 8.5 years. However, if you were talking cart
> wheels then you will probably find they have pretty much evolved to be
> as good as they can get. The whole (domestic especially) 3D printing
> market is still quite new so the market is still finding it's feet.

That's what I think but few seem to think the same.
Similar with spaceX going to the moon in 2018 with passengers.

> It's also very much a hobby for many (like me) so that and what it
> entails are part of the whole point.

Like most hobby type things.

> >After a head went and a motor and the ribbon cable needed replacing it's been religated to if you just want one colour then use this.
>
> That doesn't sound like a bad thing (multiple colours / extruders all
> add to the complexity and reduce the reliability).

It only had two to start with.

> >
> > Any idea why they have differnt models ?
>
> The same reason why there is more than one make and model of
> motorcycle, car or house I'm guessing?

Yes a few drivers think they can compete with Lewis hamlton but can't everyone afford and rid a go-cart.

> >> >but what if they are 10 students using it and you're in the queue ?
> >>
> >> Not sure what that has got to do with the user skill or machine
> >> ability.
> >
> >That explains it.
>
> To you possibly! So, a queue of people wanting to use something makes
> that something bad or the fact that they don't know how to use it or
> accidentally break it (because of that) it's a bad machine?

It's not a bad machine it was never a bad machine.
But like not all cars can do the same not all 3D printers can either.

>I'm not
> saying it's a good, the best or even suitable machine but that could
> be because it's actually a bad design or isn't used by skilled people
> (or people with the right approach).

Or that it isn't as good as the perception. I never realised that an object a couple of inches high would take 4 hours or more to print. Come back in the morning to find it's cracked. Then another the reel has snagged a little so the filiment has feed properly causing the unit to stop.

> >I've no idea who or why it was brought.
>
> Could you find out, OOI?
>
> >Two years ago it was heavily used I still have some of the poutput from it laying around various versions.
>
> Ok, so it did work reasonably well once.>

That doesn't explain the what appeared to be 80% faluire rate of what was produced that ended up in the bin.

> >> >> >The problem is as a studetn thast has never used teh software or a 3D printer do you really think it's cheaper to design you;re own pi box or any box and get it printered.
> >>
> >> Now you are changing the goalposts mate.
> >
> >What do you think it was brought for then.
>
> How do I know ... you don't even know! ;-)

It was brought for teh studetns to be able to use a 3D printer.
It was brought because you didnlt need to connect a computer to it, just slip in the SD card and press print and everything works.

> >>You are trying to drag user
> >> skill (or the lack thereof) and the potential cost of the final
> >> product into the point about how good the 3D printer is (or isn't) at
> >> doing the job for which it was designed?
> >
> >That's how yuo evaluate the usuefulness of any product it seemd OK for 2 years I'm not sur ehow long it is meant to last.


>
> Well, unless it's actually been worn out and the parts not available
> then that's possibly something else (again, part of a bad decision).

Sometimes you stop repairing yuor car and get a new one.
Most people now get someone else to repair their car.
Sometimes even chaging a headlamp bulb is impossible.

>
> >Some think you can print your own spare parts as it's a 3D printer.
>
> Erm, most of our 3D printer was printed on another 3D printer just
> like it?

That's how one of ours is advertised.
But you can;t print the motors or the cables all you can really do is print the box structure.

>We have printed all the (many) plastic parts for two more
> printers on our 3D printer. That was part of the whole 'Rep Rap' deal.

Why did you need to print the parts, didn't they last as long as you expected ?
Why did they break was it because they were cheap and crap in the first place.

We didn't buy one so we clould print spare parts for it.

Had a studetn this moring asking if he can print a 3D chassis for his robot.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GLO5SMY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

he'd made a mess of the orginal , he's never used a 3D printer before
so I said unlikely better for you to use a bit of 3-ply which we have in stock and cutting out the holes you need as and when you need them.

I think this will be quicker than explaining how to to the inkscape or illustartor software and then printing it.

In fact while typing this I had to show the student how to use coping saw to cut a square hole out.

> >> >> That was never the point.
> >> >
> >> >It is for use or rathe rthe students they';; spend weeks at it ignoring what they should be doing.
> >>
> >> Then it sounds to me like they are using the wrong tool for the job?
> >
> >Are you saying it can't make a 3D box.
>
> Apparently yours can't? Most of the others out there can?

ours can but when it costs more to make one and longer than it takes to visit the nearest poundshop and we can't even print clear.

> >As I tell teh students DO NOT start making a box for yuor project until you have a working project, you WILL NOT get extra marks for making a fancy box.
>
> Quite right too.

But tehy read we have a 3D printer then start making plans for their box.
We had the same when we annouced we brough a laser cutter.

> >> When our daughter was on a '3D Design' course at the local college, a
> >> 3D printer would be the *exact* right tool to have at their disposal.
> >
> >But which one.
>
> 'A' (worthwhile) 3D printer ... same with any purchase like that.

Few if anyone knows what people will request to 3D print over the next couple of years.

I haven't even been provided with the labsheet for what's going to be done next week ! let alone 2 years in advance.

>
> >The new one has the water solubale plastic.
>
> Any (dual extruder) printer can use the water soluble support material
> potentially (inc ours).

Really that's one of the reasons why the £80k printer was brought.
the water soluble support material for it is £90 a KG but I know there are differnt sorts too ranging in price.
Apparenty our printer has water jets.

> >> If you are only helping these students weld or build electronic
> >> projects (that need cases) then it's the wrong tool.
> >
> >Some used it for making cogs others for making a crane type structure which would have been better if maxde with lego or mecanno certaily much quicker.
>
> But I'm not sure they would learn as much about both the production of
> mechanical components and the stresses found within them by using any
> pre made part.

They are doing an electroic engineering course, the project was more to do with writing and designing a robot arm software and hardware.
Another was to support a metal ball just below a solenoid which was meant to switch off and on enabling the ball to maintain distance X below the solenoid.

See 20+ years ago we had 4 workshop personal we now have one who retires next year, we had 7 or 8 electronics workshop staff of which we haven;t had any in the last 10 years. So previosuly such a student could go to the workshop draw what they wanted on a scrap of paper and get it 'fabricated'
Studetns with a 3D printer are just no match but some think a 3D printer can print things a lathe can do. Well they can do some BUT ONLY in platsic.

> >> Quite. However, I (or thousands of others) *do* like having the
> >> opportunity and freedom to be able to print such a thing any time we
> >> want.
> >
> >good for them but spending a grand on a 3D printer might be a waste of time.
>
> A fool and their money ...

So what have you 3D printed ?

>
> >Fine by a £70 printer but a photographer would soon find it unusable, but it'll be fine for most.
>
> Sure, but you are clouding the picture again. It's like saying there
> was no point me building a kitcar,

I'd heard they were pretty crap and dangerous.
Don't see many nowerdays I wonder why.

>(or rowing boat or kayak etc) when
> you can buy such things ready made or hire them?

One of our lectuers buily his own boat after 10 years he was almost finsihed another 3 years was the estimate but I tend to think it wass more of a way being away from the wife.

I wonder why we don;t see the mirror dingy project that was all the rage when I was young, why hasn't it been revived ?
Or build you're own drone one of our students did that, why not everyone.

you could 3D print most parts.

> >> Please just accept you are potentially using the wrong tool for the
> >> job and / or don't properly know how to use the tool in the fist
> >> place. There is probably nothing wrong with the 3D printer you have
> >> there and it's just a shame it's not in the right hands / department /
> >> management.
> >
> >Depends what use you want it to have and to put it to.
>
> *Exactly*.

The probem is once got people know what can be done with 3D printing it's on the news, the reason we;re thinking of teh £250k version is because people come to use think we can print dones heart valves and all sorts of things because we have a 3D printer. Our 3D printer can't even print to that size .

> >If yuo want to spend a few hundred or a grand to print a couple of washers any one will do.
>
> Except your one apparently! ;

It can but it's cheaper and quicker to just use what you can buy.

>
> >But most are gimmicks that won't produce the quality you want.
>
> In your expert opinion I'm guessing?

from what I:ve seen and experience of what peole expect, when we wanted a smooth shiny finsih that can;t be printed we needed to buy a chemical like acetone to get that effect the it had to be painted on by hand and teh firdst 3 versions failed because there was an exact time it had to be left on for.

<just replaced the blade in the coping saw, I've been watching them they didnt; put the blade in the saw likke I told them they just held the blade in the hand>.

> The novelty of our 3d printer didn't wear off after the fist print,
> quite the opposite in fact, especially once you realise how easy they
> are to use and what you can do with them.

yuo waste yuor time doing 3D printing rathe rthan get on with the project or course work exactly. Buy the box and learn how to drill a hole don;t spend the next 3 weeks desiging a box with a hole in it.

>
> Now, if you gave one to a bunch of gibbons ... ;-)

Yep but if you really wanted a copy of shakespeare would you choose an infinate number of giddons and typwriters or use a photocopier ?
and don't forget the sticky stustance left on a typewriter after an infinate number of gibbons have been on it.

[whisky-dave]

They tried and the postroom was closed what's the point in delivering to an adress and there's no one there to recieve it ?

[dennis@home]

On 02/03/2017 16:11, whisky-dave wrote:

>>> The new one has the water solubale plastic.
>>
>> Any (dual extruder) printer can use the water soluble support material
>> potentially (inc ours).
>
> Really that's one of the reasons why the £80k printer was brought.
> the water soluble support material for it is £90 a KG but I know there are differnt sorts too ranging in price.
> Apparenty our printer has water jets.

Any dual extruder printer can print soluble supports.
If you are paying £80k you aren't buying a dual extruder printer.
Its more likely you are buying one that uses powder and glues it
together layer by layer using some sort of resin or maybe a laser
sintering machine.

[whisky-dave]

Yep got it has that which not all 3D printers have obiously.
These also take a lot more care in looking after and do really need someone trained on them rather than relying on someone reading an online PDF, that's why offer training courses on them.
Few seem to realise that 3D printers aren't a pretty much of a muchness.

Bit like those that couldn't tell the differnce between a mac and a PC in the early days.

[T i m]

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:11:33 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
<whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>We have printed all the (many) plastic parts for two more
>> printers on our 3D printer. That was part of the whole 'Rep Rap' deal.
>
> Why did you need to print the parts, didn't they last as long as you expected ?

What part of 'two more' printers didn't you get dave, especially when
on the topic of Rep-Rap and printer self duplication? ;-)

>Why did they break was it because they were cheap and crap in the first place.

They didn't / haven't of course ... *all* the original bits that we
put together 18 months ago are all doing fine. ;-)

>
>We didn't buy one so we clould print spare parts for it.

It sounds like you bought one with the expectation of not being able
to print anything of worth on it and it seems to have met your
expectations?

>
>Had a studetn this moring asking if he can print a 3D chassis for his robot.
>
>https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GLO5SMY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
>he'd made a mess of the orginal , he's never used a 3D printer before
>so I said unlikely better for you to use a bit of 3-ply which we have in stock and cutting out the holes you need as and when you need them.

Meh, subject it being smaller than 200 x 200 (for out printer) that
would have been a P.O.P.

>
>I think this will be quicker than explaining how to to the inkscape or illustartor software and then printing it.

Ah, no wonder you are having problems! Check out Sketchup. ;-)

https://www.sketchup.com/

>In fact while typing this I had to show the student how to use coping saw to cut a square hole out.

Hmm ....
>
<snip>

>> A fool and their money ...
>
>So what have you 3D printed ?

I put a long list of some of the things I printed elsewhere in this
thread.

>
>>
>> >Fine by a £70 printer but a photographer would soon find it unusable, but it'll be fine for most.
>>
>> Sure, but you are clouding the picture again. It's like saying there
>> was no point me building a kitcar,
>
>I'd heard they were pretty crap and dangerous.
>Don't see many nowerdays I wonder why.

Because, as you seem to regularly demonstrate, few have the skills
these days? ;-)

>
>
>>(or rowing boat or kayak etc) when
>> you can buy such things ready made or hire them?
>
>One of our lectuers buily his own boat after 10 years he was almost finsihed another 3 years was the estimate but I tend to think it wass more of a way being away from the wife.
>
>I wonder why we don;t see the mirror dingy project that was all the rage when I was young, why hasn't it been revived ?

Because it hasn't gone away?

http://www.ukmirrorsailing.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=468:duffin-marine&catid=177:licenced-grp-builders-and-wooden-kit-manufacturers&Itemid=177

>Or build you're own drone one of our students did that, why not everyone.

Quite, but then I built a 6' rowing dinghy in woodwork class at
Secondary School so I would say that eh. ;-)

>you could 3D print most parts.

That's the idea (and many people do of course).

Cheers, T i m

[dennis@home]

On 03/03/2017 00:34, T i m wrote:

>> you could 3D print most parts.
>
> That's the idea (and many people do of course).

I am planning on printing a G scale Stephenson's rocket when I get the time.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:564002

I will put an esp8266 devboard with a h bridge motor controller in it,
probably.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/27236186354

[T i m]

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:43:18 +0000, dennis@home
<den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

>On 03/03/2017 00:34, T i m wrote:
>
>>> you could 3D print most parts.
>>
>> That's the idea (and many people do of course).
>
>I am planning on printing a G scale Stephenson's rocket when I get the time.
>
>http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:564002

Whilst I'm not into 'trains' we did go on the Rocket replica at
Beamish and I think that printed model is cute / clever. ;-)

>
>I will put an esp8266 devboard with a h bridge motor controller in it,
>probably.
>
>http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/27236186354

Expired auction (but I understand the bridge etc).

Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 4:11:38 PM UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 17:20:18 UTC, T i m wrote:
> > On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 08:37:59 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
> > <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:


> Had a studetn this moring asking if he can print a 3D chassis for his robot.
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GLO5SMY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> he'd made a mess of the orginal , he's never used a 3D printer before
> so I said unlikely better for you to use a bit of 3-ply which we have in stock and cutting out the holes you need as and when you need them.

getting students to select the right material and tool for job , laser cut acrylic or ply would be stronger and faster than 3D print in that app.

Alignment of the axles and encoders is fairly critical and a few hols need to be fairly exact or the thing won`t steer properly.

>
> I think this will be quicker than explaining how to to the inkscape or illustartor software and then printing it.

That`s what the university of Youtube is for :-)

Tim, Sketchup is pretty good with the .stl exporter for 3D designs, Inkscape is a vector based 2D program which can be easier for exporting .DXF or .SVG for 2D cutting on thing like a laser.

Tinkercad also has SVG export option.

Incidentally Inkscape includes Potrace which makes tracing things like logos very simple.

>
> In fact while typing this I had to show the student how to use coping saw to cut a square hole out.
>

That is where Computer Aided Manufacture wins, 3D print, CNC , Laser , for fat fingers like me who can draw a design but have difficulty cutting a straight line with a straight blade.

> Or build you're own drone one of our students did that, why not everyone.
>
> you could 3D print most parts.
>

Strange should mention it , 3D printing and drones appear to have large overlap in interest :-)

>

> The probem is once got people know what can be done with 3D printing it's on the news, the reason we;re thinking of teh £250k version is because people come to use think we can print dones heart valves and all sorts of things because we have a 3D printer. Our 3D printer can't even print to that size .
>

Wot! You haven`t had the first thing people asking is
"Can you print a gun?" ;-)

>
>
> > >If yuo want to spend a few hundred or a grand to print a couple of washers any one will do.
> >
> > Except your one apparently! ;
>
> It can but it's cheaper and quicker to just use what you can buy.
>
>
> >
> > >But most are gimmicks that won't produce the quality you want.
> >
> > In your expert opinion I'm guessing?
>
> from what I:ve seen and experience of what peole expect, when we wanted a smooth shiny finsih that can;t be printed we needed to buy a chemical like acetone to get that effect the it had to be painted on by hand and teh firdst 3 versions failed because there was an exact time it had to be left on for.

Acetone vapour smoothing of ABS, dinnae need to paint it on , just vapour it, under mega supervision with students.

>
> <just replaced the blade in the coping saw, I've been watching them they didnt; put the blade in the saw likke I told them they just held the blade in the hand>.
>
>
>
> > The novelty of our 3d printer didn't wear off after the fist print,
> > quite the opposite in fact, especially once you realise how easy they
> > are to use and what you can do with them.
>
> yuo waste yuor time doing 3D printing rathe rthan get on with the project or course work exactly. Buy the box and learn how to drill a hole don;t spend the next 3 weeks desiging a box with a hole in it.
>

Tinkercad or thingiverse parametric box generator, even put in the PCB pillars whilst your in there.

That way the controls line up on the panel ;-)

[T i m]

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 04:08:29 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>Tim, Sketchup is pretty good with the .stl exporter for 3D designs,

I know. ;-)

>Inkscape is a vector based 2D program

I know, I've tried it and like most other traditional 2F (or even 3D
for that matter) drawing programs (inc Gimp / PS), I have never used
them long enough to be able to use them productively.

>which can be easier for exporting .DXF or .SVG for 2D cutting on thing like a laser.

Yeabut we were talking about printing summat?

"I think this will be quicker than explaining how to to the inkscape
or illustartor software and then printing it."
>

>Tinkercad also has SVG export option.

Not sure when you would use SVG?

>
>Incidentally Inkscape includes Potrace which makes tracing things like logos very simple.

Ok? ;-)
>
<snip>

>
>Strange should mention it , 3D printing and drones appear to have large overlap in interest :-)

Or 3D printers and electronics / computers / Arduinos / RPi etc.

<snip>

>>
>> yuo waste yuor time doing 3D printing rathe rthan get on with the project or course work exactly. Buy the box and learn how to drill a hole don;t spend the next 3 weeks desiging a box with a hole in it.
>>
>
>Tinkercad or thingiverse parametric box generator, even put in the PCB pillars whilst your in there.

As you can (and I have done many times) with Sketchup. ;-)

Because I took the second (of two) extruders off 'our' printer
recently (we have never used two and I have always wanted to KISS) the
X axis end stop microswitch was being triggered by the spare hotend
that I had cable-tied up onto the X carriage (because we use MINTEMP
on both thermistors and I didn't have time to re-do Marlin (and didn't
know any other way of storing such).

As an experiment to see if the microswitch would touch the carriage
itself (rather than the extruder as previously) I tried turning it
over when it fell apart (they were 10 for 15P from China). ;-)

So we dug out the optical endstops we bought ages ago (but hadn't
bother to fit because it was all working well) and I re-designed the
mount I'd previously designed and printed that slipped over the hex
shape of the l/h X carriage upright fitting.

I was going to then print a 'chopper' to attach to the X carriage but
I've since been mulling over extending the endstop mount up and down
again (well, it would be printed from the bottom up and joining back
at the top) and incorporating the chopper 'flag' on a thin flexy arm
(like a swan neck) so that it was 'spring' out and pushed in a few mm
by whatever touches it (on the carriage). Either that or a lightly
sprung or counterbalanced arm (like an old railway signal but bent
though 90 Deg) that naturally fell open and moved the flag into the
opto-detector as the carriage touched it. That way there doesn't need
to be anything special / aligned on the carriage (or to get knocked
off / misaligned etc).

Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 11:35:59 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 04:08:29 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >Tim, Sketchup is pretty good with the .stl exporter for 3D designs,
>
> I know. ;-)

Sketchup does have it`s quirks and exported stl`s are not always what would want, keep meaning to start climbing the curve on Fusion 360 :-)

>
> >Inkscape is a vector based 2D program
>
> I know, I've tried it and like most other traditional 2F (or even 3D
> for that matter) drawing programs (inc Gimp / PS), I have never used
> them long enough to be able to use them productively.
>
> >which can be easier for exporting .DXF or .SVG for 2D cutting on thing like a laser.
>
> Yeabut we were talking about printing summat?

Item Whisky used as an example looked like might be better cut from sheet and he mentioned has a laser cutter.

>
> "I think this will be quicker than explaining how to to the inkscape
> or illustartor software and then printing it."
> >
> >Tinkercad also has SVG export option.
>
> Not sure when you would use SVG?

Laser and cutting plotter might prefer that format or one of 20 flavours of .DXF

> >
> >Incidentally Inkscape includes Potrace which makes tracing things like logos very simple.
>
> Ok? ;-)

auto trace shape outline from bitmap/jpg export SVG , import into Tinkercad , extrude outline into 3D, works on more than logos and easier than hand tracing in Sketchup.

> >
> <snip>

> >

>
> So we dug out the optical endstops we bought ages ago

> Cheers, T i m

Would say theres nothing better than a good old lever microswitch , but times had bits or the heated bed cable get trapped on Y switch, mebbe your onto sonething with opto limits or even inductive sensors.

[whisky-dave]

On Friday, 3 March 2017 00:34:55 UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:11:33 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
> <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >>We have printed all the (many) plastic parts for two more
> >> printers on our 3D printer. That was part of the whole 'Rep Rap' deal.
> >
> > Why did you need to print the parts, didn't they last as long as you expected ?
>
> What part of 'two more' printers didn't you get dave, especially when
> on the topic of Rep-Rap and printer self duplication? ;-)

Thw part were you print power supplies and metal components, ribbon cable, motors, heat plates and the like.

Only in sci-fi fantasy can 3D printers print themselves.

> >Why did they break was it because they were cheap and crap in the first place.
>
> They didn't / haven't of course ... *all* the original bits that we
> put together 18 months ago are all doing fine. ;-)

SO no need to reprint them then that's good isn't it.

> >We didn't buy one so we clould print spare parts for it.
>
> It sounds like you bought one with the expectation of not being able
> to print anything of worth on it and it seems to have met your
> expectations?

expectations exceeded the ability of the device.

> >Had a studetn this moring asking if he can print a 3D chassis for his robot.
> >
> >https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GLO5SMY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> >
> >he'd made a mess of the orginal , he's never used a 3D printer before
> >so I said unlikely better for you to use a bit of 3-ply which we have in stock and cutting out the holes you need as and when you need them.
>
> Meh, subject it being smaller than 200 x 200 (for out printer) that
> would have been a P.O.P.

I foudn a design for the starship enterprise for ours, apparently you could print it life size.

> >I think this will be quicker than explaining how to to the inkscape or illustartor software and then printing it.
>
> Ah, no wonder you are having problems! Check out Sketchup. ;-)

Used that too, well I haven't the students have.


>
> https://www.sketchup.com/

https://all3dp.com/best-3d-printing-software-tools/

plenty on offer, strange there's so many if just one of them was good enough.
Not all the outputs work the same on each and every printer is another issue.

>
> I put a long list of some of the things I printed elsewhere in this
> thread.

I must have moissed that.

> >> >Fine by a £70 printer but a photographer would soon find it unusable, but it'll be fine for most.
> >>
> >> Sure, but you are clouding the picture again. It's like saying there
> >> was no point me building a kitcar,
> >
> >I'd heard they were pretty crap and dangerous.
> >Don't see many nowerdays I wonder why.
>
> Because, as you seem to regularly demonstrate, few have the skills
> these days? ;-)

few would waste their time, orm it could be a legal thing of course.

> >I wonder why we don;t see the mirror dingy project that was all the rage when I was young, why hasn't it been revived ?
>
> Because it hasn't gone away?
>
> http://www.ukmirrorsailing.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=468:duffin-marine&catid=177:licenced-grp-builders-and-wooden-kit-manufacturers&Itemid=177

I've a friend that spent nearly £400 on a lego starwars ship.

>
> >Or build you're own drone one of our students did that, why not everyone.
>
> Quite, but then I built a 6' rowing dinghy in woodwork class at
> Secondary School so I would say that eh. ;-)

we build a sail yacht on wheels, maybe it's being in london.

> >you could 3D print most parts.
>
> That's the idea (and many people do of course).

many must be a few handfuls by now.

>
> Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 04:11:32 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave

<whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 3 March 2017 00:34:55 UTC, T i m wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:11:33 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
>> <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >>We have printed all the (many) plastic parts for two more
>> >> printers on our 3D printer. That was part of the whole 'Rep Rap' deal.
>> >
>> > Why did you need to print the parts, didn't they last as long as you expected ?
>>
>> What part of 'two more' printers didn't you get dave, especially when
>> on the topic of Rep-Rap and printer self duplication? ;-)
>
>Thw part were you print power supplies and metal components, ribbon cable, motors, heat plates and the like.

Ok, what part of 'all the (many) plastic parts' didn't you get?

http://reprap.org/

>
>Only in sci-fi fantasy can 3D printers print themselves.

Duh.

>
>
>
>> >Why did they break was it because they were cheap and crap in the first place.
>>
>> They didn't / haven't of course ... *all* the original bits that we
>> put together 18 months ago are all doing fine. ;-)
>
>SO no need to reprint them then that's good isn't it.

Yes, it is. ;-)

>
>
>> >We didn't buy one so we clould print spare parts for it.
>>
>> It sounds like you bought one with the expectation of not being able
>> to print anything of worth on it and it seems to have met your
>> expectations?
>
>expectations exceeded the ability of the device.

So it seems ... although at that price and knowing how simple 3D
printers can be for much much less, could have exceeded the abilities
of all involved in it? And that's not a slur as you have already
acknowledged you don't / didn't have sufficient time to give it.

>
>
>
>> >Had a studetn this moring asking if he can print a 3D chassis for his robot.
>> >
>> >https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GLO5SMY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>> >
>> >he'd made a mess of the orginal , he's never used a 3D printer before
>> >so I said unlikely better for you to use a bit of 3-ply which we have in stock and cutting out the holes you need as and when you need them.
>>
>> Meh, subject it being smaller than 200 x 200 (for out printer) that
>> would have been a P.O.P.
>
>I foudn a design for the starship enterprise for ours, apparently you could print it life size.

Cool. It would be cool to be able to reprint the original model. ;-)

>
>
>
>> >I think this will be quicker than explaining how to to the inkscape or illustartor software and then printing it.
>>
>> Ah, no wonder you are having problems! Check out Sketchup. ;-)
>
>Used that too, well I haven't the students have.

Then there should be no excuse as whilst there have been some hiccups
(and I was helped past them by that nice Mr Rumm here) and I am no
'artist or graphics / 3D designer, I have managed to be able to
produce some fairly reasonable (and very useable) things.

>
>
>>
>> https://www.sketchup.com/
>
>https://all3dp.com/best-3d-printing-software-tools/
>
>plenty on offer, strange there's so many if just one of them was good enough.

Often open source and as with nearly *every* program solution that
exists, there are several that do the same / similar things and that
suit different peoples taste differently. Than goodness there are
Android tablets as I would hate to be stuck with an iOS one. As many
people feel the exact opposite of course.

>Not all the outputs work the same on each and every printer is another issue.

Many run on .gcode, along with CNC lathes, mills and cutters etc.
Therefore, lots of software and electronics will run on many of the
machines (given a similar number of axis and motor / load specs etc).

On that though ... we specifically went for something that was as near
open source as possible and ignoring some of the actual chips (Like
the Micro controller as used on the Arduinos), we have the circuit
diagrams for every single part.

>>
>> I put a long list of some of the things I printed elsewhere in this
>> thread.
>
>I must have moissed that.

You must have ... but trust me, it covered a fair range of things
across a wide range of subjects and that list is growing every day. It
grew by two today when I designed and printed an upgraded X carriage
limit stop assembly (went from a micro switch to optical break-beam).

>
>> >> >Fine by a £70 printer but a photographer would soon find it unusable, but it'll be fine for most.
>> >>
>> >> Sure, but you are clouding the picture again. It's like saying there
>> >> was no point me building a kitcar,
>> >
>> >I'd heard they were pretty crap and dangerous.

It seems you have heard a lot but not actually done that much Dave?
;-)

Question, do you think that driving a kitcar would be more dangerous
than say motorcycling or riding a cycle? Do you think the pollution
saved by re-cycling most of an existing vehicle wouldn't be a good
thing and therefore possibly be less dangerous for many people?

>> >Don't see many nowerdays I wonder why.
>>
>> Because, as you seem to regularly demonstrate, few have the skills
>> these days? ;-)
>
>few would waste their time, orm it could be a legal thing of course.

Yes, you would be right in that for most, 'being creative' and / or
'using a wide range of skills' would be out of the question these
days.

Good job there are helecopters and cable cars up most the mountains
these days, saves all that tedious climbing.
>
<snip>

>
>we build a sail yacht on wheels, maybe it's being in london.

At least you built *something*.

>
>
>> >you could 3D print most parts.
>>
>> That's the idea (and many people do of course).
>
>many must be a few handfuls by now.

Well, probably nearly every school and college in the country if not
much of the world. Every manufacturing / engineering / design house /
lab. Many medical establishments and a good few d-i-y users here ...
so yes, quite a few more than 'a few handfuls' I assure you.

Cheers, T i m

[dennis@home]

On 07/03/2017 21:55, T i m wrote:

>> I foudn a design for the starship enterprise for ours, apparently you could print it life size.
>
> Cool. It would be cool to be able to reprint the original model. ;-)

There were several IIRC, from about 1000mm to 3300mm.
I would have to print a full sized one in quite a lot of bits.

[T i m]

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 04:40:03 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>Sketchup does have it`s quirks and exported stl`s are not always what would want, keep meaning to start climbing the curve on Fusion 360 :-)

Have you ever used Microsoft's .stl repair facility Adam?

https://tools3d.azurewebsites.net/

It used to give you an stl back but now it's something else and that
opens some other program (MS 3D modeling software?) but that has a
'Save as STL) so we are OK. ;-)

<snip>

>> >Incidentally Inkscape includes Potrace which makes tracing things like logos very simple.
>>
>> Ok? ;-)
>
>auto trace shape outline from bitmap/jpg export SVG , import into Tinkercad , extrude outline into 3D, works on more than logos and easier than hand tracing in Sketchup.

Oh, ok ... trying to think of when we could use that ...

>
>> So we dug out the optical endstops we bought ages ago

>Would say theres nothing better than a good old lever microswitch ,

To be fair I think the originals lasted around 18 months and only
failed mechanically because they were hit or stressed etc.

I removed the arm on the Z axis switch because the Z axis drive is M8
x 1.25 (I think, pitch) threaded stud and with one turn being = to 400
full (x 16 sub) stepper motor steps, having just the switch gives
better Z homing accuracy.

>but times had bits or the heated bed cable get trapped on Y switch,

Ours is currently at the end of (outside) the bed so out of the way of
most moving stuff. We were thinking of fitting the optical Y limit
stop up beside the bed (rather in line with it).

>mebbe your onto sonething with opto limits or even inductive sensors.

We got two different types of mini PCB / stop solutions, one seems to
work easily (supply 5V, 0V and the output and LED goes on / off when
you break the beam) but the other doesn't as yet (to be looked into,
might need a pullup / down resistor).

So, I've re-designed a block (I had previously designed to take the X
axis micro switch endstop) that pushes over the Z axis feed rod / end
fitting / motor mount that now carries the optical sensor with the
slot horizontal and parallel to the X axis. Rather than trying to fit
the chopper on the X carriage, I designed and printed 90 Deg shaped
arm that pivots above the opto-switch by 20mm or so and is counter
weighted in the open position by a small weight (a 3mm Nyloc nut). So,
the chopper blade naturally sits just inside the opto window (so it's
already 'engaged') and when the carriage touches it as it homes, it
pushes the chopper blade into the opto-device and the X carriage
stops.

I'll see if I can take a picture of it. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Adam Aglionby]

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:42:49 PM UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 04:40:03 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
> <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >Sketchup does have it`s quirks and exported stl`s are not always what would want, keep meaning to start climbing the curve on Fusion 360 :-)
>
> Have you ever used Microsoft's .stl repair facility Adam?
>
> https://tools3d.azurewebsites.net/
>
> It used to give you an stl back but now it's something else and that
> opens some other program (MS 3D modeling software?) but that has a
> 'Save as STL) so we are OK. ;-)

3D handling in Win10 seems to have taken a major boost, only run Win10 on one machine though.

Most recently found Slic3r did a great job on fixing a weird STL, Cura showed it OK in solid view but toolpathing was away out , Slic3r fixed it and exported the STL, will take time to try it as an actual slicer next :-)

All anyone seems to say about S3D is it`s great and totally worth 150USD, then fail to list why..

Meshmixer has some powerful tools including for repair.

>
> <snip>
>
> >> >Incidentally Inkscape includes Potrace which makes tracing things like logos very simple.
> >>
> >> Ok? ;-)
> >
> >auto trace shape outline from bitmap/jpg export SVG , import into Tinkercad , extrude outline into 3D, works on more than logos and easier than hand tracing in Sketchup.
>
> Oh, ok ... trying to think of when we could use that ...

some non obvious uses include creating textures

be interested to see :-)

>
> Cheers, T i m

[whisky-dave]

On Tuesday, 7 March 2017 21:55:29 UTC, T i m wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 04:11:32 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
> <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, 3 March 2017 00:34:55 UTC, T i m wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:11:33 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
> >> <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> >>We have printed all the (many) plastic parts for two more
> >> >> printers on our 3D printer. That was part of the whole 'Rep Rap' deal.
> >> >
> >> > Why did you need to print the parts, didn't they last as long as you expected ?
> >>
> >> What part of 'two more' printers didn't you get dave, especially when
> >> on the topic of Rep-Rap and printer self duplication? ;-)
> >
> >Thw part were you print power supplies and metal components, ribbon cable, motors, heat plates and the like.
>
> Ok, what part of 'all the (many) plastic parts' didn't you get?
>
> http://reprap.org/

Sometime s you need parts that aren;t made of plastic and even then it;s only certain plastics that can be printed.

> >
> >Only in sci-fi fantasy can 3D printers print themselves.
>
> Duh.

Yep.
Show me the instructions for printing a stepper motor.

> >> It sounds like you bought one with the expectation of not being able
> >> to print anything of worth on it and it seems to have met your
> >> expectations?
> >
> >expectations exceeded the ability of the device.
>
> So it seems ... although at that price and knowing how simple 3D
> printers can be for much much less, could have exceeded the abilities
> of all involved in it? And that's not a slur as you have already
> acknowledged you don't / didn't have sufficient time to give it.

Actually just had a student take a 3D printed part out of the scrap bin the item was printed 3+ years ago had plenty of faults in it as do the many other items in the scrap bin.

> >> >Had a studetn this moring asking if he can print a 3D chassis for his robot.
> >> >
> >> >https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GLO5SMY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> >> >
> >> >he'd made a mess of the orginal , he's never used a 3D printer before
> >> >so I said unlikely better for you to use a bit of 3-ply which we have in stock and cutting out the holes you need as and when you need them.
> >>
> >> Meh, subject it being smaller than 200 x 200 (for out printer) that
> >> would have been a P.O.P.
> >
> >I foudn a design for the starship enterprise for ours, apparently you could print it life size.
>
> Cool. It would be cool to be able to reprint the original model. ;-)

But it'd look crap at whatever size hardly worth the time or effort.
But do you know what is really easy to print.. lego

But you can't print it cheaper than you can buy it so there's little point and teh actual plastic is crap too for such thing.
or you could prove me wrong by actually doing it.

> >> >I think this will be quicker than explaining how to to the inkscape or illustartor software and then printing it.
> >>
> >> Ah, no wonder you are having problems! Check out Sketchup. ;-)
> >
> >Used that too, well I haven't the students have.
>
> Then there should be no excuse as whilst there have been some hiccups
> (and I was helped past them by that nice Mr Rumm here) and I am no
> 'artist or graphics / 3D designer, I have managed to be able to
> produce some fairly reasonable (and very useable) things.

Dildos ?
You can;t even get a smooth enough finish , so don;t waste yuor time trying ;-)

> >> https://www.sketchup.com/
> >
> >https://all3dp.com/best-3d-printing-software-tools/
> >
> >plenty on offer, strange there's so many if just one of them was good enough.
>
> Often open source and as with nearly *every* program solution that
> exists, there are several that do the same / similar things and that
> suit different peoples taste differently. Than goodness there are
> Android tablets as I would hate to be stuck with an iOS one. As many
> people feel the exact opposite of course.

Same with linux great OS for thios ethat dontl have to get much done, and the reason why most computers that peolpe use for doing stuff not related to an OS have windows or Mac OS. Sure you can get gimp instaed of Pshop but it's at least 10 years behind photoshop.

>
> >Not all the outputs work the same on each and every printer is another issue.
>
> Many run on .gcode, along with CNC lathes, mills and cutters etc.
> Therefore, lots of software and electronics will run on many of the
> machines (given a similar number of axis and motor / load specs etc).

In theory but in practice.... we have a few CNC machines here including those used for PCBs

> On that though ... we specifically went for something that was as near
> open source as possible and ignoring some of the actual chips (Like
> the Micro controller as used on the Arduinos), we have the circuit
> diagrams for every single part.

We have http://www.lpkf.com/

We need to get things done .

> >> I put a long list of some of the things I printed elsewhere in this
> >> thread.
> >
> >I must have moissed that.
>
> You must have ... but trust me, it covered a fair range of things
> across a wide range of subjects and that list is growing every day. It
> grew by two today when I designed and printed an upgraded X carriage
> limit stop assembly (went from a micro switch to optical break-beam).

Well if you have the time to do such a thing, maybe you're the sort of person we need to employ we were looking for a part time person to lok after theb 3D printer and associated stuff.

> >> >> >Fine by a £70 printer but a photographer would soon find it unusable, but it'll be fine for most.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sure, but you are clouding the picture again. It's like saying there
> >> >> was no point me building a kitcar,
> >> >
> >> >I'd heard they were pretty crap and dangerous.
>
> It seems you have heard a lot but not actually done that much Dave?
> ;-)

Done enough to know that it's not worth doing as a commercial venture, and there's got to be a reason why you don't see lots more people doing it.

>
> Question, do you think that driving a kitcar would be more dangerous
> than say motorcycling or riding a cycle?

It shouldn't be.
But don't cars have at least 3 wheels so they aren't the same are they.

> Do you think the pollution
> saved by re-cycling most of an existing vehicle wouldn't be a good
> thing and therefore possibly be less dangerous for many people?

Are you talking about those that join to scraped (by insurance companies) vehicles togther in their shed and sell them with the engine numbers filed off. ?
I'm not sure how re-cycling is safer or less dangerous comes into it.

> >> >Don't see many nowerdays I wonder why.
> >>
> >> Because, as you seem to regularly demonstrate, few have the skills
> >> these days? ;-)
> >
> >few would waste their time, orm it could be a legal thing of course.
>
> Yes, you would be right in that for most, 'being creative' and / or
> 'using a wide range of skills' would be out of the question these
> days.

Plenty of youtubes examples were people think they know better.
of course in those days real men saewd asbestos and didn't worry, I reemebr my dad sawing up pieces of corrigated asbestos to use oin the garden, I particually remmebr my mum shouding out at me and my brother to get inside and told dad off for getting us to hold it still while he sawed a brave man and even braver kids it seems my mum was a coward.

>
> Good job there are helecopters and cable cars up most the mountains
> these days, saves all that tedious climbing.

If I wanted to go up Everest I'd use a helecopter, not a pair of 3D printed wellies and poundshop rope.

> >
> <snip>
> >
> >we build a sail yacht on wheels, maybe it's being in london.
>
> At least you built *something*.

Yep, I didn't download anything and send it to a printer and call it DIY either ;-P

> >> >you could 3D print most parts.
> >>
> >> That's the idea (and many people do of course).
> >
> >many must be a few handfuls by now.
>
> Well, probably nearly every school and college in the country if not
> much of the world. Every manufacturing / engineering / design house /
> lab. Many medical establishments and a good few d-i-y users here ...
> so yes, quite a few more than 'a few handfuls' I assure you.

Many are brought yes.


>
> Cheers, T i m