Project Phoenix and new UK files

[Isaac Koi]

I found the new UFO files from the UK interesting. I have posted a fairly long item about them (and potential future scanning projects) tonight at the link below:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1194228/pg1

How many of you already knew all of the following (documented in these files and outlined in the item I've posted on ATS tonight at the link below)?

As detailed at the link below, I have been having discussions with the National Archives about scans of these files, the outcome of which is that I can't post the files on an open website BUT the prohibition on publication of images of the documents does not prevent me sharing those files on a password-protected website with other researchers that are aware of the need to comply with Crown Copyright rules. Among other things those rules prohibit uploading images of (but not quotes from) the documents to an open website or otherwise publishing them, unless and until permission is obtained from the National Archives

a) UFO reports have been taken “seriously” by some of those in the Ministry of Defence in England, particularly by some of its “scientists and engineers” (see Footnote 1 below);

(b) A decision was taken in 1993 to classify a UFO study for the British Ministry of Defence and its output as “SECRET UK EYES B” explicitly “since a potential exists for political embarrassment” (see Footnote 2 at link below);

(c) The British Ministry of Defence in 1993 was aware from intelligence sources that “Russia believes that such phenomena exist and has a small team studying them” (see Footnote 3 below);

(d) The British Ministry of Defence was aware in 1993 that “an informal group exists in the US intelligence community” in relation to UFOs and that it was possible that this reflected “a more formal organization” or “more formal assessment activity” (see Footnote 4 below);

(e) In 1982, unnamed “US authorities” wished to have copies of any reports on a UFO incident which involved the launching of two USN F14 aircraft and the diversion of a RAF Phantom to “assist” a USAF aircraft to the south of Cyprus involved in a “UFO incident”. The few documents on this incident in the relevant file refer to various materials which are not included in the released material (see Footnote 5 below);

(f) A British Air Attache in Paris in 1977 reported in that “the French military authorities had found nothing of an aggressive nature in the sightings although their scientists had been unable to explain the phenomena” (see Footnote 6 below);

(g) The Ministry of Defence had learnt in relation to sightings over Belgium in 1990 “informally, that the view of the Belgian Air Force is that a craft of some sort was involved and that they maintain an open mind on the sightings, which remain unexplained” (see Footnote 7 below);

(h) A letter dated 7 June 1982 from the Italian Embassy to the Ministry of Defence requested a meeting “of approximately five days’ duration” to “discuss salient organizational points in the UFO sector” (see Footnote 8 below);

(i) the Australian Department of Defence had stated in relation to UFO reports that “a considerable amount of effort is spent investigating each report…” (see Footnote 9 below). http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1194228/pg1

Footnote 1 : See Section 2(c)(xiii) at link below regarding File 13 - DEFE 24-3152, particularly extracts from the memo dated 6 February 1978 at Page 55 of that file and paragraph 9 of the memo dated 18 June 1995, classified “SECRET UK EYES A, at pages 215-222 of that file.

Footnote 2 : See Section 2(c)(xiii) at link below regarding File 13 - DEFE 24-3152, particularly a memo dated 18 October 1993 (at page 17 of that file) and a memo dated 2 December 1993 in similar terms.

Footnote 3 : See Section 2(c)(xiii) at link below regarding File 13 - DEFE 24-3152, particularly a memo dated 18 October 1993 (at page 17 of that file) and a memo dated 2 December 1993 (at page 176 of that file).

Footnote 4 : See Section 2(c)(xiii) at link below regarding File 13 - DEFE 24-3152, particularly a memo dated 18 October 1993 (at page 171 of that file) and paragraph 31 of a memo dated 18 June 1995 classified “SECRET UK EYES A”.

Footnote 5 : See Section 2(c)(xii) at link below regarding File 12 - DEFE 24-3129-1, particularly the documents at page 54 and 60 of that file.

Footnote 6 : See Section 2(c)(xiii) at link below regarding File 13 - DEFE 24-3152, particularly a memo dated 13 December 1977 (at pages 36-37 of that file)

Footnote 7 : See Section 2(c)(ii) at link below regarding File 2 - DEFE 24-2822-1, particularly a memo dated 8 June 1994 (at pages 176-177 of that file)

Footnote 8 : See Section 2(c)(xii) at link below regarding File 12 - DEFE 24-3129-1, particularly the letter dated 7 June 1982 from the Italian Embassy (at page 152 of that file).

Footnote 9 : See Section 2(c)(vi) at link below regarding File 6 - DEFE 24-2879-1, particularly the documents at pages 125-126.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1194228/pg1

All the best,

Isaac

[Mendoza]

Dear Isaac

Sorry to be a pain the fundament, but I have an apparently false memory 

that you put a post on UpDates clarifying your speculation that the Nimitz 

2004 FLIR video had been cooked up by some German students. As I 

also recall someone (maybe even you) said this appeared in a section of 

their website that contained stuff they hadn't originated. I've looked for 

this on UpDates and your own FB page and can't find it (tho' was enter-

tained by exchanges twixt Andy Roberts and André Skondras, ho ho). 

The way FB hides conversations and nests them within others doesn't 

help. And ATS just makes my eyes cross, so didn't even look there.

So—Would you, could you, be so kind as to give me the skinny on where 

your speculation lies, as of now? The name of the German group would 

also help. Just links would do. I do apologize for putting you to this trouble.

best

Peter

[Mendoza]

Sorry all, that was meant to go to Isaac personally. Not that it reveals any
intimate secrets. But since it's gone to the list, all assistance appreciated.

Looks like I have to say sorry to you again, Isaac!

Peter B

[Danny Ammon]

Hi all,

the German company where the 2004 Nimitz FLIR video was hosted is
called »Vision Unlimited« (http://www.vision-unlimited.de).

We’ve also contacted them recently and got the same reply: The place
where the video once was stored was a place for public uploads and
they don’t know who put the video there. The upload directory no
longer exists, but archive.org has still a copy of the file back from
2007:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070217091957/http://www.vision-unlimited.de:80/extern/f4.mpg

Hope that helps, Peter!

Best regards!
Danny Ammon

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[Isaac Koi]

Hi Peter,

Short answer : since the New York Times article and related material (including interviews with one of the relevant pilots) it looks like we have at least some reassurance that the video is genuine. At the moment, a claim has been made on the To The Stars website that their video "comes with essential chain-of-custody documentation" but that documentation does not appear to be available on that website. Once that is provided, the first of several hurdles will have been overcome and attention can then turn to analysis of the video and related evidence.

Long answer :  Since you, and a couple of others, have asked similar questions I'll post a bit of a chronology of the public discussion of this video in case it helps-

In 2007, someone with the username "thefinaltheory" posted the Nimitz video on ATS in a thread entitled "Fighter Jet UFO Footage: The Real Deal" at the link below:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread265835/pg1

His post included the following link to the video (which can still be retrieved using the Wayback Machine's Internet Archive):

http://www.vision-unlimited.de/extern/f4.mpg

I pointed out that this was the website of a group of German film students with an interest in creating footage with lots of special effects - including computer generated spaceships.  My post is at the link below, included the following: "Conclusion : Pending release of the promised further "files", this video should be tentatively identified as an attempted hoax on ATS by members of the "vision-unlimited" group of German student film makers.":

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread265835/pg1#pid2927030

The person posting about the video on ATS denied that he was a member of that group of film students and claimed that the video was uploaded to their website because it was more secure than websites in the USA. (That didn't make much sense to me then. It still doesn't).

I repeatedly asked (in that thread and in private messages) for the person that started that discussion to provide further evidence.  I didn't get any response to my messages. The person that started the discussion was eventually banned by a moderator on ATS (not me) for apparently posting under multiple different usernames.

I posted a brief summary (based on my post above) on the EuroUFO email List in 2007. No one disagreed with my tentative view at that time.

I also emailed the German group of students for comment in 2007.  I didn't get any reply from that group in 2007. I tried again in 2008 and did get a response that time. I was told by the head of that group that he didn't know how the footage got on their server (which did little to satisfy my doubts).

The video was subsequently posted on Youtube at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfTWyQDl0wo

That Youtube link was posted on the Project 1947 email discussion List and the EuroUFO discussion List in 2008.  There wasn't much discussion of it.

I can't find a copy of it, but a very well-known UFO researcher (who may prefer to stay out of this) started another discussion about the video on the EuroUFO list. Since I can't find it, I can't be sure when this was.  That researcher stating that he had been informed of the footage by (from memory) an unnamed military source.  I asked for clarification of that source but didn't get any answer.

Things then went quiet.

More recently, (in March 2015 I think) Paco Chierici published an article about the Nimitz sighting which mentioned one of the pilots by name (Dave Fravor) and referred to the video footage: 

https://fightersweep.com/1460/x-files-edition/

So, about 8 years after I asked for it, at that point there was more information/evidence available - although at that point it still wasn't completely clear that the footage being mentioned was the same as that posted online in 2007.

Obviously, the incident was given a major boost in publicity by the Tom Delonge online event in October 2017.

At that point, I reposted on Facebook some of the material I'd outlined in 2007. I referred to the connections to the website of German film students interested in special effects and commented:
"This doesn't (and didn't) necessarily mean that the footage was a hoax but I found it rather interesting and, in the absence of the promised further confirmation/evidence, in 2007 I was inclined to reach the tentative conclusion that it was a hoax (while repeatedly requesting the promised further evidence that it was genuine). I find it very interesting that the current rounds of discussion seem to ignore the provenance of the footage and don't mention that the footage was sourced from the website of several German film students interested in creating science fiction material".
https://www.facebook.com/isaac.koi/posts/10209545388181187

In a discussion at this point, Robert Sheaffer posted on Facebook : "Just because the video was on their site does not mean they created it. Note that the directory it is in is called "extern," presumably files obtained from elsewhere":

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ufoupdates/permalink/10154856842976790/?comment_id=10154862795001790&reply_comment_id=10154863116761790&comment_tracking=%7B"tn"%3A"R9"%7D

Some reporter contacted me in or around early November 2007 about using my material "debunking" (his term, not mine) this video. I said they could use anything I've posted but that I didn't claim to have debunked this video. (There are dozens of videos where I would say that, but this isn't one of them). I stressed that I hadn't "debunked" this video but merely pointed to some red flags that meant that further evidence was important and that my "_tentative_" conclusion in 2007 was that it was a hoax pending further information/evidence. Some of this was quoted in the Fox5 article at:

http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/36815728/mystery-ufo-video-supposedly-from-uss-nimitz-fighter-jet-intrigues-researchers

Of course, since the New York Times article and related material (including interviews with one of the relevant pilots) it looks like we have at least some reassurance that the video is genuine. At the moment, a claim has been made on the To The Stars website that their video "comes with essential chain-of-custody documentation" but that documentation does not appear to be available on that website. Once that is provided, the first of several hurdles will have been overcome and attention can then turn to analysis of the video and related evidence.

All the best,

Isaac

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[Mendoza]

Thankyou Danny and Isaac both.

A slight difficulty. Or two. 

(1) The Wayback machine 'video' referenced lasts about 2 seconds 

and shows no obvious movement of the target. Is that all there ever 

was, or is the file corrupt or what? Anyone know? 

(2) The YouTube link gives me an unsmiley graphic and says the 

video is not available. So one can't compare.

(3) And more to the point one can't tell if the 'German' video is 

actually the same as the DeLonge FLIR-1 footage. So are they 

directly comparable, or what?

All other comment and analysis being equal, the FLIR-1 video as 

posted on the DeLonge site seems to be anomalous only at the very 

end, when the target shoots off to the left of the frame. What I really 

want to know is if this was in the 'original' Vision Unlimited footage. 

If it was, this may be an indicator of something hokey afoot.

Isaac writes:

At the moment, a claim has been made on the To The Stars

website that their video "comes with essential chain-of-custody 

documentation" but that documentation does not appear to be

available on that website.

That is the least satisfactory aspect  of this weird saga. Although one 

can see why they are dragging out the tease. But then their alleged 

transcript of Fravor's debriefing (some years after the event!) has no 

redaction marks or stamps, no letterhead cover page, blah blah. Unlike 

any other FOIA release I've ever seen. If it's genuine it smacks of a re-

format, but they don't indicate/admit that. Once more, one smells cod. 

Or maybe herring.

And while I'm at it I may as well ask, as I have elsewhere, if anyone 

knows whether a FLIR recording, as on the GIMBAL video, would 

normally carry a soundtrack of the crew's exchanges? The visual quality 

prompted Tim Printy to wonder if this one wasn't recorded on a phone 

from a TV, which case the commentary may be entirely unrelated to 

the event itself.

We shall see. Or not. TTS promise more revelations on Wednesday. 

Four or five days is longer than I can, or would want to, hold my breath.

best

Peter

[Isaac Koi]

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 11:02 PM, Isaac Koi <isaa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I found the new UFO files from the UK interesting. I have posted a fairly long item about them (and potential future scanning projects) tonight at the link below:

> http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1194228/pg1

Nick Pope has mentioned that the further 3 files that the Ministry of Defence has been planning on releasing are now at the National Archives at Kew. 

I'll probably arrange for these files to be scanned and the scans made available as with the 15 files released last summer. 

(Scans of the 15 files included in the previous release were discussed in my item on ATS a couple of weeks ago at the link above).

I also hope to be able to upload further files from New Zealand and Australia soon.

All the best,

Isaac

[Isaac Koi]

Unfortunately, having taken a few minutes off work to look into this and some helpful comments by David Clarke, it looks like Nick Pope was mistaken and the further 3 Ministry of Defence has promised to release still haven't been released. 

(Instead, the National Archives has just released unredacted copies of 3 files which had been released in redacted form in 2008. The unredacted copies are presumably released now because 30 years has passed since those files were closed. The number of files appears to be a coincidence).

All the best,

Isaac