Navigating to a specific headline or slice in TW5

[Jan]

Hello,
is it possible in TW5 to navigate to a specific headline or to show a
secific slice, like it was in TWC where you could navigate to slices
using Tiddler##Slice.

regards
Jan

[Mat]

See ongoing discussion on github.

Short answer is: No, not possible.

I made a hack that suffers some substantial drawbacks but might be usable in limited cases.

<:-)

[Jan]

Thanks Mat,
that's a pitty, these slices were so comfortable in TWC.
Nice to have your workarround at least. Now we would need a shorthand for this.
So I guess transclusions of slices are not possible either....

best wishes Jan.

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[Mark S.]

I think it's a shame too. It's not just an oversight -- it's part of a whole design philosophy:

http://tiddlywiki.com/#Philosophy%20of%20Tiddlers

Depending on your use case, the data dictionary can work something like the slices. You set the content type of a tiddler to data dictionary. Then entries go in it like:

tom: A cartoon cat
jerry: A cartoon mouse
Ben: Works with other Jerry

And you can access these definitions from another tiddler like this:

{{sliceme##tom}}
 

HTH
Mark

[Jan]

Hi Mark,
What happens to TWClassic slices when migrating old TWs?
My usecase back in TWC was recycling TiddlerContent, lists, buttons, sliders. The results were more beautifull because they were more compact. I loved to transclude slices...
Arghhh!
I see this will be an awfull heap of work...

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[Mark S.]

I went with the flow, with an awful lot of work still in its old format.

TW5 has fields which can be transcluded. You can make as many fields as you want in a tiddler AFAIK. Perhaps in some cases that can could be reworked similar to your old usage(s).

Mark

[Jan]

Hej Mat.
Discussing the lack the possibility to transclude slices, i asked myself wether
the Code in your cherrypicker could be an answer to this Problem.
Will it possible to use Marks invisible in the ViewMode?
Could you create a ViewTemplate that renders by tiddler without changing the Layout. Something like <<slice "keyword" [[Tiddler]]>> .
Would be great to rediscover this great feature...

Jan

Am 07.06.2016 um 18:25 schrieb Mat:

[Jed Carty]

I am a bit stuck at the moment because while I don't want to discourage any exploration into different ways of using TiddlyWiki there is a TW5 way of doing what you are talking about, which is to use either more tiddlers or fields which you then place wherever you want them using transclusions.

Using templates you could have the anchor tag part of the transclusion so you could navigate to a spot in an open tiddler. If you want to be able to both open a tiddler and navigate to some spot in that tiddler than we would need a more complex macro but it may be able to be done using only wikitext and simple html. Or we may need to make an action widget that does the same action as clicking on a normal link.

[Jeremy Ruston]

It’s clear that users want to be able to write/paste long passages of text into a tiddler and then individually address sections (or slices/chunks). In practice, I think that means that anything that one can presently do to an entire tiddler needs to be possible with a slice: transclusion, linking, searching, etc.

That means that the system has to deal with two levels of granularity: slices and entire tiddlers. Internally, everywhere that we manipulate tiddlers we’d need to support slices too.

In fact, slices would become the fundamental unit; an entire tiddler would be a special case of a slice covering the entire tiddler.

That’s where things get interesting: now we’ve redefined a slice to be a tiddler (which is just what we call a fundamental discrete unit of content in TiddlyWiki). Now, for performance reasons, we’d want to avoid repeatedly scanning tiddlers to extract the slices; instead, we’d want to store the individual slices separately so that we can efficiently address them as needed.

You can probably see where this goes: we’ve just ended up *renaming* “tiddlers” to “slices”, and adding facilities to deal with sequences of slices as discrete entities called “tiddlers”.

That’s pretty much where we are today: it’s easy to combine several tiddlers to make them appear to be a single tiddler: we use transclusion, or macros based on transclusion like the TOC macro.

We’ve still got the problem of dealing with long passages of text: that’s where the text-slicer plugin comes in, showing one way that these long texts can be split into chunks, and the chunks recombined in flexible ways.

So, my position isn’t ideological, nor am I wilfully ignoring feedback from users. But I am asserting that from an engineering perspective it’s cleaner and more efficient to be dealing with a single fundamental entity, and to approach the original problem from the other end: by splitting and recombining.

Best wishes

Jeremy

On 8 Jun 2016, at 14:27, Jed Carty <inmy...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am a bit stuck at the moment because while I don't want to discourage any exploration into different ways of using TiddlyWiki there is a TW5 way of doing what you are talking about, which is to use either more tiddlers or fields which you then place wherever you want them using transclusions.

Using templates you could have the anchor tag part of the transclusion so you could navigate to a spot in an open tiddler. If you want to be able to both open a tiddler and navigate to some spot in that tiddler than we would need a more complex macro but it may be able to be done using only wikitext and simple html. Or we may need to make an action widget that does the same action as clicking on a normal link.

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[Xavier Cazin]

Hi Jeremy,

Does this slide concept allow compatibility with html anchors? So that importing an HTML fragment containing footnotes would create of a "footnote slice", as well as the linking mecanism between the note and the call point?

Cheers,

Xavier.

-- Xavier Cazin

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[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Xavier

Does this slide concept allow compatibility with html anchors? So that importing an HTML fragment containing footnotes would create of a "footnote slice", as well as the linking mecanism between the note and the call point?

If you’re asking about the text-slicer plugin, then the answer is “no”, it doesn’t understand HTML anchors at present. But it could, of course, with some updating. The trouble is that what you are describing is a particular convention for how anchors/links might be used in a particular HTML document, and wouldn’t in general apply to every document. That level of customisation isn’t implemented at present.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[Mat]

Jan wrote:

Hej Mat.
Discussing the lack the possibility to transclude slices, i asked myself wether
the Code in your cherrypicker could be an answer to this Problem.
Will it possible to use Marks invisible in the ViewMode?

Jan, I just did some quick tests in CherryPicker and it seems it works using <mark>, i.e surround the marks of choice with angle brackets and it doesn't show up in viewmode. Be careful to not use e.g html markup (like <table> or <b> etc). 

 

Could you create a ViewTemplate that renders by tiddler without changing the Layout. Something like <<slice "keyword" [[Tiddler]]>> .
Would be great to rediscover this great feature...

Ha, limiting the cherrypicker to pick from a specific tiddler... and it's in effect slicing! That's a very interesting idea that I had not thought of! Could you elaborate a bit what you mean with "keyword" here? Are you saying like a kind of anchor and then transclude everything from that point until... what actually? 

Your suggestion gives me another idea though; one could cherrypick all headlines into a kind of outliner. Then, clicking on a headline it's content is transcluded too.

I should be clear though: My specific CherryPicker implementation is probably not the most suitable for these things. I think we'd really need a js widget for this so that cherries and slices could be manipulated in a more controlled way

Will do some thinking but it'll probably take some time. I think CherryPicker is a super cool (and important) concept though so I do intend to develop it further.

<:-)

[Jan]

Hej Mat.
With keyword I meant the indicators/labels to mark the cherrys like <mark> or @@bob. 
Could one use something like this <#1>slicecontent<#1> or is it reserved? It would be fine if allso the next number worked to terminate a slide <#1>slicecontent<#2>.
I would like to have a real shorthand use like <slice [Tiddler]|1> to display. It would be nice to have the normal style by default and to use templates and multiple tidler like this <slice [TiddlerA][TiddlerB]|1 cherry> to get the lovely box with clickable cherries you designed which draws content from two tiddlers...
Again... Cherrypicker has the potential of a big enhancement.
 
Great thankyou
Jan               ß-)


One use of the cherrypicker would be collecting the footnotes of a story.

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[Jan]

Hi Jeremy,
I get the point. The counterargument may be that by slicing all down to tiddlers, things can accidentally be broken in the next step. Because you eventually won't remember all places a tiddler is transcludes into. As a slice this context can be seen at once. That is why I feel more secure about slices in this aspect.
 
Kind regards Jan

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[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi all! Maybe, this discussion has gone much further than the title implies. But reading some of your posts made me think of a page I made some time ago, where I use a script derived from HTML5 outliner for Chrome to generate a table of contents automatically from HTML titles.

Maybe a gifted JS Programmer could make this script scrolling to the clicked title, no matter if it is in a single tiddler or in one of several open tiddlers.
Just a thought, but I hope it is helpful or at least interesting …
The page is here: http://thomas-elmiger.ch/bookmarklet/tibofix.html (first link)
Outliner is here: https://github.com/h5o/h5o-chrome

Good luck! Thomas

[Jan]

Hi Jeremy
The concept of an atomic datastructure sounds logic.
Yet two my mind there is two missing features:

-When you discover that the content you wish to change was transcluded, it takes some time to get to the real tiddler; in most cases I have to find and open with the searchbar.
It would be practical if transclusions were clickable Links in the edit-Mode. Could this be done with a template or plugin?

-It would be important to have better Security mechanisms against destroying links. Especially renaming tiddlers can have dangerous effects. It would be nice if users were shown a Modal informing about Links Lists and Transclusions for which the Tiddker has importance..

Regards Jan

In TWClassic when changing the Name of a Tag-Tiddler i was asked wheter I wished to change the tags to.

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[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Jan

Yet two my mind there is two missing features:

I'd acknowledge the impact of the issues you mention, but fixing them is 1,000 times easier than introducing full support for slicing.

 

-When you discover that the content you wish to change was transcluded, it takes some time to get to the real tiddler; in most cases I have to find and open with the searchbar.
It would be practical if transclusions were clickable Links in the edit-Mode. Could this be done with a template or plugin?

My favoured approach to fix this is to introduce a mode that makes transclusions visible, so that one can directly click on a link to open the target tiddler.

 

-It would be important to have better Security mechanisms against destroying links. Especially renaming tiddlers can have dangerous effects. It would be nice if users were shown a Modal informing about Links Lists and Transclusions for which the Tiddker has importance..

As discussed elsewhere, I'd favour support for automatically replacing references to a tiddler when it is renamed.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

 

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[c pa]

Folks,

Whenever I feel the need to include slices in my tiddlers, I implement each slice using a combination of the following:

1. a field and an <$edit-text tag="textarea" $field="slicename" />  widget.
2. the same field and an <$transclude mode="block" $field="slicename" />  widget.
3. a tag (I use edit) and a <$list filter="[all[current]tag[edit]]" emptymessage=""" -- put view widget here --- """> --put edit widget here -- </$list> widget to switch the display between edit and view of the field

Benefits
1. Allows me to stay with the tiddlywiki core path
2. Imposes standard slice names
3. Allows me to look up and manipulate all slice names

[Mark S.]

Can you give an example of #3. I've never had luck calling a widget from inside a widget and I would like to know how it's done.

All of that, just to call a slice, which could have been made in a second in TWC. Am I the only one who thinks this is incredibly daunting, especially for new-comers?

Mark

[Mark S.]

Please consider the matter from the viewpoint of  average users.

In fact, slices would become the fundamental unit; an entire tiddler would be a special case of a slice covering the entire tiddler.

Slices are different in several important ways. To start, they are much lighter than a full tiddler. Each tiddler has about 60 characters overhead.  More importantly, slices are RIGHT THERE while you edit. You don't have to click link, then click again to edit the tiddler, then close the tiddler, then check how it all works back in the main document. You don't have to wrack your head to to write a unique descriptive link for every semantic unit. You get to see the actual text and not a widget. You don't have to worry that changing a tiddler title  will break a dependent document.

Finally, in many case, the article, documents, correspondence etc. IS  the "semantic" unit that you want. The tiddler is complete, but you just want to to add a bookmark or anchor into the text, or quickly find a particular section, without having to explode the document into  a dozen scatter-shot pieces. It's unnatural to take a piece of correspondence, for instance, and break it into little pieces just so you can quickly access some particular piece in the future. Most people would not do that with their real-life filing, and it feels strange to do it inside of an electronic document.

From a different engineering perspective, each tiddler adds overhead to a non-indexed system where every byte represents a performance decrease. It's clear that lots of people enjoyed the slice approach in the TWC, and that some are going to great lengths to come up with approaches that bring it back.

 

Mark

[c pa]

>> Can you give an example of #3. I've never had luck calling a widget from inside a widget and I would like to know how it's done

Oh right. I do all my editing from dashboards because all my tiddlers are structured. The concept is as follows:

Analysis
============

# Decide on a structure for your tiddlers
#* Example "Book" would have the following fields
#** Title
#** Authors
#** Publisher
#** My random ramblings
#** My Review
#** Plot synopsis
#** ISBN Number

Discussion
=============

* My random ramblings is a good candidate for the text field
* My Review, and Plot synopsis are good candidates for slices
* The title of the book should be put in the caption field because two books can have the same title
* ISBN is unique for books so put that in the title filed (The name of the tiddler - must be unique)
* Authors can be multiple so this would be a list of authors populated from tiddlers tagged "author"
** This requires a macro to populate it.
** You can use crazyListHere from cpashow.tiddlyspot.com
** As you might suspect from the name, my macro currently does all sorts of stuff in addition to populating a list
* Publisher is a text name populated using a select from tiddlers tagged "publisher"

Code a template
=========================

Create a tiddler to act as the "template" for books

title: "book"    -- named the same as the tag used to define books
text:"""
ISBN: {{!!title}}
Edit ISBN: <$edit field="title" />
<br/>
Authors: <<crazyListHere "authors" "author">>
<br/>
Publisher: <$select field="publisher"><option value=""> -- </option><$list filter="[tag[publisher]]"><option value=<<currentTiddler>> > <<currentTiddler>> </option></$list></$select>
<br/>
My random ramblings: <$edit field="text" />
<br/>
My Review: <$edit-text tag="textarea" field="review" />
<br/>
Plot synopsis: <$edit-text tag="textarea"  field="synopsis" />
"""

Code a dashboard
================================
title: "Book Dashboard"
text: """
Add a book: <$edit-text tag="input"  tiddler="$:/temp/newbook" />
<$button>
    Add book
    <$action-setfield $field="currentbook" $value={{$:/temp/newbook}} />
    <$action-setfield $tiddler={{$:/temp/newbook}} $field="tags" $value="book" />
    <$action-setfield $tiddler="$:/temp/newbook" $field="text" $value="" />
</$button>
Select a book to edit:
   <$select field="currentbook">
       <option value=""> -- </option>
       <$list filter="[tag[book]]" variable="Current_Book" emptyMessage="""
             <option value=""> There are no books available </option>
       """>
             <option value=<<Current_Book>> >
                     <<Current_Book>>
             </option>
       </$list>
  </$select>
<$tiddler tiddler={{!!currentbook}} >
    <$transclude tiddler="book" />
</$tiddler>
"""

[Dmitry Sokolov]

In LikeInMind practice, transclusion is a very rare case. Transcluded tiddlers may change with time in the context of the hosting topic / main page. Those changes may conflict with the content of the topic / page they are transcluded to. Federation is highly recommended instead.

Both, transcluded and federated tiddlers must have back links to the source pages.
To avoid confusion, transcluded tiddlers are framed. Federated tiddlers have no formatting differences with the rest of the page they are pasted to.

I hope you find it helpful.
Cheers,
Dmitry

[Dmitry Sokolov]

Regarding renaming tiddlers, it is not recommended on LikeInMind while technically possible.

In order to avoid dead links and lost connections, tiddlers are federated under a desired name. The content of the "old" tiddler is replaced with the link onto the "fresh" one. :)
Replacement of the obsolete links is done manually, when realised/needed. Ideally, a "garbage collector" would be great to have.

Just my 2 cents,
Dmitry

[Danielo Rodríguez]

I was thinking about  something very similar. We have all that we need already on tiddlywiki. The rest is just a matter of how do you present the information. Tiddlers have fields, so you can have as many fields as sections you need. Then, the only thing you need is a view template to transclude all the "_section/name" fields and a edit template to edit them comfortable.

Let me say c pa that I find your implementation brilliant. Thank you for sharing.

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Jan

The extract macro offers a new solution to this:

-When you discover that the content you wish to change was transcluded, it takes some time to get to the real tiddler; in most cases I have to find and open with the searchbar.
It would be practical if transclusions were clickable Links in the edit-Mode. Could this be done with a template or plugin?

 

As you would expect, it can find all {{transclusions}} in curly style – and with the new version (0.9.2) you can output them as a list of links. I made a demo here: http://tid.li/tw5/hacks.html#Icon%20Test where it lists all the images used.

I think such a list could be appended as a tab to the tiddler info panel … or maybe you could make a conditional view template and append it to the edit view. Of course you miss <$transclude …/>.

Good luck and good night!
Thomas

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Mark,

 

Slices are different in several important ways. To start, they are much lighter than a full tiddler. Each tiddler has about 60 characters overhead.  More importantly, slices are RIGHT THERE while you edit. You don't have to click link, then click again to edit the tiddler, then close the tiddler, then check how it all works back in the main document. You don't have to wrack your head to to write a unique descriptive link for every semantic unit. You get to see the actual text and not a widget. You don't have to worry that changing a tiddler title  will break a dependent document.

Mhhh, not sure. I don't think there currently is a way to tell TiddlyWiki to just use a single textarea to edit the entire tiddler as if a ".tid" file.
I think it would be cool for pro-users, even to switch on the fly between the two modes.

Atually, it might even be three edit modes:

1. each field on its own, as is
   
2. one textarea, as if a "tid file"
   
3. title and tags on their own, as is, but custom fields and text as if a tid-file, eventually concatenating all of that to a tid file and commiting

Best wishes,

Tobias.

[Jan]

Hi Thomas,
I think a box below the Title in the editTemplate would be best for this purpose...and it would be good to show also in which tiddlers this tiddler is transcluded, in order to avoid breaking it's text up accidentally.

My current idea is also to use the extract-macro the other way round...in order to build a sort of replacemanet for slices. Mark a textpart ant then insert it somewhere else by means of the the macro.
It would be an idea to use the same mark-up for those slices as for slides. Somethin like <sli1> text1 </sli> <sli2> text2 </sli>
To find them it would be nice to have a macro that would look like <<slice "Tiddlername" 1>>.
 Do you think that would work?

Yours Jan.

I think such a list could be appended as a tab to the tiddler info panel … or maybe you could make a conditional view template and append it to the edit view. Of course you miss <transclude …/>.

Good luck and good night!
Thomas

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[Matthew Lauber]

As an FYI, I've actually done a lot of work with fields, and discovered that if you put a newline in a field on a tiddler, and export that tiddler to a ".tid" fle, it breaks the format of the ".tid" file.  This is an issue if you ever intend to use the nodejs server, as it stores the files, behind the scenes, in ".tid" format.

Matt

[Danielo Rodríguez]

That is definetively a bug. Is it reported?

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Matt,

 

As an FYI, I've actually done a lot of work with fields, and discovered that if you put a newline in a field on a tiddler, and export that tiddler to a ".tid" fle, it breaks the format of the ".tid" file. This is an issue if you ever intend to use the nodejs server, as it stores the files, behind the scenes, in ".tid" format.

While the solution recently suggested by Jeremy is not implemented yet, there's an issue for that here:

#1947 tiddler format for multiline fields (esp. node.js)

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1947

Best wishes,

Tobias.

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Jan

Easy things first. Good idea ;–)

My current idea is also to use the extract-macro the other way round...in order to build a sort of replacemanet for slices. Mark a textpart ant then insert it somewhere else by means of the the macro.

This is exactly what extact was made for.
 

It would be an idea to use the same mark-up for those slices as for slides. Somethin like <sli1> text1 </sli> <sli2> text2 </sli>
To find them it would be nice to have a macro that would look like <<slice "Tiddlername" 1>>.

Ah – a simplified meta-macro (I just invented that word) like our ref macro. Of course this works. I made a demo on http://tid.li/tw5/numbers.html, see Chapter 2 Paragraph 1.1.

Code: http://tid.li/tw5/numbers.html#%24%3A%2F_telmiger%2Fslice

\define slice(tiddler,nr,mode:"block")
<$macrocall $name="extract" tiddler="""$tiddler$""" start="<sli$nr$>" end="</sli$nr$>" mode="$mode$" class="slice"/>
\end

I opted to add the mode parameter so you can change to inline mode if you like.

And I close the tag using the number <sli1>Your slice</sli1>. I am not sure yet that this is the final solution, maybe there is a standard HTML tag we could use and a custom param like <section slice="1">Slice content</section>.

By the way, I think I smashed the bug that was preventing you from updating. I guess you have to add class="summary" (or class:"summary") to your existing macro calls.

I hope, this works for you. All the best!
Thomas

[Matthew Lauber]

Sweet.  Just assumed this was a quirk of the tiddler format and was set in stone.  Good to know there is a fix that's being considered.  It's actually one of the issues I ran into with TiddlyServer.  One of the people testing had a newline at the end of their author name, so every tiddler they saved was invalidly formatted.  Took me a while to figure that one out.

Matt

[Jan]

Hi Thomas
That is great you just reinvented slices for TW5...and the best is: For one slice it even works without setting a number!
I would like it to set it to standart "inline", because block is easily done with return or <br>.

Thanks so much!
Bye Jan

I'll have to be off for a week to fininsh some professional duties

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[Jan]

Hi Thomas, thanks a lot for this.
I would prefer an Infobox in the Edit-Mode right below the TiddlerTitle.
It would be best to include a warning wether the Tiddler is transcluded from somewhere in order to avoid accidental confusions.

...but I also have thought of using your Plugin the other way round to produce a slice-replacement.
A function extracting some marked piece of a specific Tiddler. Something like <slice>Text to extract<end>.
This would also have the advantage that it would be immediately visible that the slice is used elsewhere.

Yours Jan

Am 08.01.2017 um 01:07 schrieb Thomas Elmiger:

I think such a list could be appended as a tab to the tiddler info panel … or maybe you could make a conditional view template and append it to the edit view. Of course you miss <transclude …/>.

Good luck and good night!
Thomas

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[Roger Ferrari]

Using Thomas solution together with the Smart TOC extension for chrome works just fine for me.

this is the extension: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/smart-toc/lifgeihcfpkmmlfjbailfpfhbahhibba/related

it has a github page, unfortunately I am no coder/programmer I was trying to understand a way to get the piece of code to reproduce what the extension does but I just can't.

[David Gifford]

Wow I totally missed this hack. Nice, even if a workaround. I just added it to the TiddlyWiki toolmap, in the linking section https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 11:25:06 AM UTC-5, Mat wrote:

See ongoing discussion on github.

Short answer is: No, not possible.

I made a hack that suffers some substantial drawbacks but might be usable in limited cases.

<:-)