What does TiddlySpace DO for me? What do I INTEND for it to do?
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dickon
Dec 6, 2012, 7:29:27 PM12/6/12
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This is a set of questions prompted by Chris Dent.
- I am non-technical, so please don't scare me with unique features of TS coding... I am a TS "user" rather than a developer (see http://tiddlymanuals.tiddlyspace.com or http://dickon.tiddlyspace.com)
- I am really interested in the FUNCTIONS of Tiddlyspace, what it CAN be used for, or how it MIGHT be used (given a bit more tweaking)
- I am asking readers of this post to allow themselves to muse a little....
- I am struck by the fruitful diversity in the TS community, its content, and its ideas about what this is or should become... but also the risk that TS becomes a kind of 'developmental catherine wheel', sparks flying in all directions, but not going anywhere...
1. What do you think TiddlySpace DOES for you, that other corners of the webiverse haven't yet done...?
What is distinctive about TS? How are you using it? Why are you/would you use it, rather than some other web solution?
2. Why are people working so hard at building this - what drives them...?
Clarify if you are a developer/programmer or a "lay user".
3. If the community of users and developers of TiddlySpace could be said to share a vision about WHAT IS BEING CREATED here, could you summarise this?
Alongside your answer, can you please rate (0 - 5) how actively involved are you in the technical development of TiddlySpace.
4. What are your INTENTIONS in creating (or just using) this thing/place...?
What's in it for you personally/professionally?
5. Where/How would you like to see TiddlySpace developing in the next years?
"Perchance to dream..." W.Shakespeare
Really interested to hear peoples thoughts about these questions.
Best wishes,
Dickon Bevington
Måns
Dec 8, 2012, 4:12:21 PM12/8/12
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Hi Dickon
I've added you as a member of a space @musings
Your questions are implemented as forms using Jon's @questionnaire - except I excluded @questionnaire when I finished making some changes...
I also used Jeremy's @interview to get into the business of being able to collect and render answers from all over tiddlyspace via the tscan macro..
Three ways to answer your questions:
Cheers Måns Mårtensson
I've added you as a member of a space @musings
Your questions are implemented as forms using Jon's @questionnaire - except I excluded @questionnaire when I finished making some changes...
I also used Jeremy's @interview to get into the business of being able to collect and render answers from all over tiddlyspace via the tscan macro..
Three ways to answer your questions:
- Do the survey in the space (all users on TiddlySpace can - because I used Fnd's @commander to set write permissions to ANY) - however I don't know if it works how I'd like it to work.... (It would be nice if the ShadowTiddler "musingsResults" was updated with answers from any user - but I guess it won't...)
- Use the replylink on each questiontiddler - get a popup > answer, and your answers will show up in each individual question tiddler... (tested: Works...)
- Include musings in a userspace (or install it in a new one) - do the survey, and answers from all spaces having a tiddler called "musingsResults" will show up in @musings ... (Works...)
Cheers Måns Mårtensson
Måns
Dec 8, 2012, 4:36:59 PM12/8/12
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I forgot:
A fourth option:
If a user uses the replyLink in the @musings/#musingsResults (creates a tiddler called "musingsResults" in his own userspace) his answer will show up in @musings##[[Dickon's questionnaire Results]] .... unless he/she marks it as being private...
Cheers Måns Mårtensson
A fourth option:
If a user uses the replyLink in the @musings/#musingsResults (creates a tiddler called "musingsResults" in his own userspace) his answer will show up in @musings##[[Dickon's questionnaire Results]] .... unless he/she marks it as being private...
Cheers Måns Mårtensson
dickon
Dec 8, 2012, 5:11:27 PM12/8/12
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This is really wonderful Mans! Thankyou for this.
Hopefully we can get some replies!
Dickon
Måns
Dec 9, 2012, 2:55:31 AM12/9/12
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Hi Dickon
Glad you like it :-)
I'd advise you to copy the tiddler "musingsResults" into one of your other spaces: (with the same title: "musingsResults")
1) To get a backup of your own answers
2) To get them to show up in @musings##[[Dickon's questionnaire Results]] ("CollectAll")
Option 1 is very experimental - and any TS user has the power to overwrite what's been written directly into the space..
Ps: I like your thoughts on writing in 3D - very inspiring :-)
Cheers Måns Mårtensson
Glad you like it :-)
I'd advise you to copy the tiddler "musingsResults" into one of your other spaces: (with the same title: "musingsResults")
1) To get a backup of your own answers
2) To get them to show up in @musings##[[Dickon's questionnaire Results]] ("CollectAll")
Option 1 is very experimental - and any TS user has the power to overwrite what's been written directly into the space..
Ps: I like your thoughts on writing in 3D - very inspiring :-)
Cheers Måns Mårtensson
stevesuny
Jan 2, 2013, 9:35:37 AM1/2/13
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Hello Dickon (& others):
Poking around, trying to decide how to organize my work, coming off the holiday break, I came across this post, and figured it was as good a place as any other to sort out the things I need to do, and things I'd like do to, in the new year. So here goes with some answers (with the familiar lament that Tiddlyspace remains hard to figure out how to do things like answer questionnaires in a social space, so rather than try to figure out the "reply to tiddler" thing that continues to baffle me, I decided to sketch out answers inline below):
On Thursday, December 6, 2012 7:29:27 PM UTC-5, dickon wrote:
For me, what is distinctive about tiddlywiki (not so much tiddlyspace), and what keeps me coming back to it year after year, is the ability to write hypertextually, using the full complement of hypertextual features including linking, tagging and transcluding. Every time I start to write something -- for a class, for a project, whatever -- in some non-tiddly platform, I find myself constantly reaching for the tagging toolkit, or wanting to create the potential for a FutureTiddler by simply using CamelCase; or wanting to reference through transclusion a bit of text I've already created. Secondly, beyond the writing, is the knowledge that by writing hypertextually I will create the opportunity for my readers (mostly, but not exclusively, my students) to read hypertextually -- so that they are not stuck with reading in a linear way that which has been written for them. Again, that requires the platform with full range of hypertextual functions. Every other web solution that I've come across is limited, mostly to just links, or a very limited implementation of tagging (such as wordpress).
First, I'm a lay user, not a developer. That said, I'll dabble in code as necessary, usually frustrating myself because I simply don't have the background to write the code. And I am way far from a developer. So I'm a lay user, with enough programming ability to waste a lot of my time not getting too far :)
What drives me is an increasing belief that we have relatively little understanding of what is necessary to read and write hypertextually for maximum effectiveness. From a reading perspective, I don't understand how individuals navigate an increasingly complex terrain involving links, tags and transclusions. From a writing perspective, I don't understand how to construct texts so that readers can navigate this complex terrain. And when those activities (reading & writing) happen in the same space at the same time (as in taking notes, annotating, etc.) I know even less. So this lack of understanding becomes interesting, and in my experience, tiddlyspace provides one of the best platforms for exploring and analyzing questions in this vein. So what drives me is the opportunity to use tiddlyspace as a way of increasing my understanding of reading and writing hypertextually.
I couldn't begin to answer this question. To be honest, my uses of tiddlyspace has usually been reduced to an instrumental situation: set a goal of using tiddlyspace to accomplish a task, and then focus on that task, without opportunity for reflection on what tiddlyspace is or what is being created.
I am grateful for the community and its ability and willingness to help solve problems, but have not been actively involved at all in the development of tiddlyspace. Perhaps I make some small contributions by trying to do different things and asking questions, and writing a few macros here and there that others may find helpful, but I generally lack the large scale understanding of what tiddlyspace is, or how it is supposed to work.
I am hoping to use tiddlyspace as a platform to deeply explore issues in reading, writing and teaching hypertextually.
One of my goals is to bring together my explorations in tiddlyspace over the past 7 years, and especially over the past 3, into an academic paper (written in tiddly, of course!) so that I can formalize this work.
This paper would take the form of grant applications, I figure, as I am trying to write grants to support this exploratory activity. Grants would support sabbatical employment with another institution and provide funds to pay graduate students and support my leaves from teaching, enabling me to devote more time to exploration and development of teaching / learning platforms using tiddlyspace.
I think the concepts developed from using tiddly as an experimental platform might be replicated in other platforms: I remain unconvinced that tiddlyspace (and tiddly in general) can move beyond a development platform. I might be wrong: mediawiki has demonstrated that the broad public community can particiapte in using the wiki world, but I'm not sure that tiddlywiki (and perhaps especially tiddlyspace) can or should become that kind of platform.
I'd be very interested in seeing advances in rendering of tiddlyspace in a more friendly html context, so that my readers woulnd't necessarily feel like they were in tiddly, but more in familiar html land. Something like a media-wiki skin for tiddlyspace: so that as an author, I could still use tagging and transclusion, but as a reader, it would be more html-ish. I've seen some themes that do this, and I probalby need to explore more because my sense is it exists already...
And then: more important: I'd like to see tiddlyspace move a bit into creating a new role for the "group" -- to be useful in a higher education setting, which for better or worse has significant issues with copyright and privacy, I need for students in my classes to be able to have a private space for reading, without the ability to write. Less access than members, more access than public. So I could mark each semi-private tiddler public to a limited number of readers. And then I'd need some systems to manage access across a list of account holders.
Dickon: I enjoy moving through your spaces to see what you are doing, though it is only in this thread that I've seen reference to your thoughts on "writing in 3D" -- can you send me a pointer?
More broadly: I wonder if we -- the tiddlyspace user community -- should work towards some kind of conference or gathering of tiddly users ... while I do lots of interaction online, there is still something powerful and special (if rather expensive) about actually meeting and working with people for a few hours or days in the same room....
Best wishes to the tiddlyspace community for a productive new year!
Steve Schneider
SUNY Institute of Technology
@stevesuny
Poking around, trying to decide how to organize my work, coming off the holiday break, I came across this post, and figured it was as good a place as any other to sort out the things I need to do, and things I'd like do to, in the new year. So here goes with some answers (with the familiar lament that Tiddlyspace remains hard to figure out how to do things like answer questionnaires in a social space, so rather than try to figure out the "reply to tiddler" thing that continues to baffle me, I decided to sketch out answers inline below):
On Thursday, December 6, 2012 7:29:27 PM UTC-5, dickon wrote:
This is a set of questions prompted by Chris Dent.
- I am non-technical, so please don't scare me with unique features of TS coding... I am a TS "user" rather than a developer (see http://tiddlymanuals.tiddlyspace.com or http://dickon.tiddlyspace.com)
- I am really interested in the FUNCTIONS of Tiddlyspace, what it CAN be used for, or how it MIGHT be used (given a bit more tweaking)
- I am asking readers of this post to allow themselves to muse a little....
- I am struck by the fruitful diversity in the TS community, its content, and its ideas about what this is or should become... but also the risk that TS becomes a kind of 'developmental catherine wheel', sparks flying in all directions, but not going anywhere...
1. What do you think TiddlySpace DOES for you, that other corners of the webiverse haven't yet done...?What is distinctive about TS? How are you using it? Why are you/would you use it, rather than some other web solution?
For me, what is distinctive about tiddlywiki (not so much tiddlyspace), and what keeps me coming back to it year after year, is the ability to write hypertextually, using the full complement of hypertextual features including linking, tagging and transcluding. Every time I start to write something -- for a class, for a project, whatever -- in some non-tiddly platform, I find myself constantly reaching for the tagging toolkit, or wanting to create the potential for a FutureTiddler by simply using CamelCase; or wanting to reference through transclusion a bit of text I've already created. Secondly, beyond the writing, is the knowledge that by writing hypertextually I will create the opportunity for my readers (mostly, but not exclusively, my students) to read hypertextually -- so that they are not stuck with reading in a linear way that which has been written for them. Again, that requires the platform with full range of hypertextual functions. Every other web solution that I've come across is limited, mostly to just links, or a very limited implementation of tagging (such as wordpress).
2. Why are people working so hard at building this - what drives them...?Clarify if you are a developer/programmer or a "lay user".
First, I'm a lay user, not a developer. That said, I'll dabble in code as necessary, usually frustrating myself because I simply don't have the background to write the code. And I am way far from a developer. So I'm a lay user, with enough programming ability to waste a lot of my time not getting too far :)
What drives me is an increasing belief that we have relatively little understanding of what is necessary to read and write hypertextually for maximum effectiveness. From a reading perspective, I don't understand how individuals navigate an increasingly complex terrain involving links, tags and transclusions. From a writing perspective, I don't understand how to construct texts so that readers can navigate this complex terrain. And when those activities (reading & writing) happen in the same space at the same time (as in taking notes, annotating, etc.) I know even less. So this lack of understanding becomes interesting, and in my experience, tiddlyspace provides one of the best platforms for exploring and analyzing questions in this vein. So what drives me is the opportunity to use tiddlyspace as a way of increasing my understanding of reading and writing hypertextually.
3. If the community of users and developers of TiddlySpace could be said to share a vision about WHAT IS BEING CREATED here, could you summarise this?Alongside your answer, can you please rate (0 - 5) how actively involved are you in the technical development of TiddlySpace.
I couldn't begin to answer this question. To be honest, my uses of tiddlyspace has usually been reduced to an instrumental situation: set a goal of using tiddlyspace to accomplish a task, and then focus on that task, without opportunity for reflection on what tiddlyspace is or what is being created.
I am grateful for the community and its ability and willingness to help solve problems, but have not been actively involved at all in the development of tiddlyspace. Perhaps I make some small contributions by trying to do different things and asking questions, and writing a few macros here and there that others may find helpful, but I generally lack the large scale understanding of what tiddlyspace is, or how it is supposed to work.
4. What are your INTENTIONS in creating (or just using) this thing/place...?What's in it for you personally/professionally?
I am hoping to use tiddlyspace as a platform to deeply explore issues in reading, writing and teaching hypertextually.
One of my goals is to bring together my explorations in tiddlyspace over the past 7 years, and especially over the past 3, into an academic paper (written in tiddly, of course!) so that I can formalize this work.
This paper would take the form of grant applications, I figure, as I am trying to write grants to support this exploratory activity. Grants would support sabbatical employment with another institution and provide funds to pay graduate students and support my leaves from teaching, enabling me to devote more time to exploration and development of teaching / learning platforms using tiddlyspace.
I think the concepts developed from using tiddly as an experimental platform might be replicated in other platforms: I remain unconvinced that tiddlyspace (and tiddly in general) can move beyond a development platform. I might be wrong: mediawiki has demonstrated that the broad public community can particiapte in using the wiki world, but I'm not sure that tiddlywiki (and perhaps especially tiddlyspace) can or should become that kind of platform.
5. Where/How would you like to see TiddlySpace developing in the next years?"Perchance to dream..." W.Shakespeare
I'd be very interested in seeing advances in rendering of tiddlyspace in a more friendly html context, so that my readers woulnd't necessarily feel like they were in tiddly, but more in familiar html land. Something like a media-wiki skin for tiddlyspace: so that as an author, I could still use tagging and transclusion, but as a reader, it would be more html-ish. I've seen some themes that do this, and I probalby need to explore more because my sense is it exists already...
And then: more important: I'd like to see tiddlyspace move a bit into creating a new role for the "group" -- to be useful in a higher education setting, which for better or worse has significant issues with copyright and privacy, I need for students in my classes to be able to have a private space for reading, without the ability to write. Less access than members, more access than public. So I could mark each semi-private tiddler public to a limited number of readers. And then I'd need some systems to manage access across a list of account holders.
Really interested to hear peoples thoughts about these questions.Best wishes,Dickon Bevington
Dickon: I enjoy moving through your spaces to see what you are doing, though it is only in this thread that I've seen reference to your thoughts on "writing in 3D" -- can you send me a pointer?
More broadly: I wonder if we -- the tiddlyspace user community -- should work towards some kind of conference or gathering of tiddly users ... while I do lots of interaction online, there is still something powerful and special (if rather expensive) about actually meeting and working with people for a few hours or days in the same room....
Best wishes to the tiddlyspace community for a productive new year!
Steve Schneider
SUNY Institute of Technology
@stevesuny
chris...@gmail.com
Jan 5, 2013, 8:10:49 AM1/5/13
to tiddl...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, 2 Jan 2013, stevesuny wrote:
> (with the familiar
> lament that Tiddlyspace remains hard to figure out how to do things like
> answer questionnaires in a social space, so rather than try to figure out
> the "reply to tiddler" thing that continues to baffle me, I decided to
> sketch out answers inline below):
Often this lament is sourced in there being too many ways to do
> (with the familiar
> lament that Tiddlyspace remains hard to figure out how to do things like
> answer questionnaires in a social space, so rather than try to figure out
> the "reply to tiddler" thing that continues to baffle me, I decided to
> sketch out answers inline below):
things and points out that despite TiddlySpace's efforts to be an
application of the TiddlyWeb platform, it is itself a platform on
which there are many applications and thus many ways of being. This
is probably a key piece in the force at play discussed below.
> I think the concepts developed from using tiddly as an experimental
> platform might be replicated in other platforms: I remain unconvinced that
> tiddlyspace (and tiddly in general) can move beyond a development
> platform. I might be wrong: mediawiki has demonstrated that the broad
> public community can particiapte in using the wiki world, but I'm not sure
> that tiddlywiki (and perhaps especially tiddlyspace) can or should become
> that kind of platform.
the current approach to development, marketing, documentation, etc.
Without focus it is many things to many people, doing many things in
many ways.
> I'd be very interested in seeing advances in rendering of tiddlyspace in a
> more friendly html context, so that my readers woulnd't necessarily feel
> like they were in tiddly, but more in familiar html land. Something like a
> media-wiki skin for tiddlyspace: so that as an author, I could still use
> tagging and transclusion, but as a reader, it would be more html-ish. I've
> seen some themes that do this, and I probalby need to explore more because
> my sense is it exists already...
There are options, in and out of tiddlywiki, for presenting a single
page in a "normal wiki" kind of way. A critical missing piece is
support for the more advanced kind of tag handling that you do. I
don't perceive any technical roadblocks to such a piece existing: it
ought to be possible.
> And then: more important: I'd like to see tiddlyspace move a bit into
> creating a new role for the "group" -- to be useful in a higher education
> setting, which for better or worse has significant issues with copyright
> and privacy, I need for students in my classes to be able to have a private
> space for reading, without the ability to write. Less access than members,
> more access than public. So I could mark each semi-private tiddler public
> to a limited number of readers. And then I'd need some systems to manage
> access across a list of account holders.
possibility. Bags are the arbiters of access control so when you set
a policy on a bag you are setting it for all the tiddlers in there.
This was a core decision in the early design of TiddlyWeb based on
observations Jeremy had made of people using more granular access
management tools.
However the concept you want, what I would call a "protected bag",
is possible. That would be a bag which has a restricted read policy
and a more restricted write and create policy. For your purposes you
could set up the read policy to be a role, and give all the various
students that role for the duration of the class.
Then that bag could be included in one or more spaces.
Again, the tools for managing this sort of thing are not (yet)
brilliant.
> Best wishes to the tiddlyspace community for a productive new year!
have the work that you are doing as a part of the project.
The coming year is full of all kinds of opportunities for
TiddlySpace. We need to marshal some resources, pick some goals, and
make it happen.
--
Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/
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