Papercuts remixed - the bug list

[Kent James]

It's quite encouraging that in a little over one day, we've picked up 6
developers who have been willing to commit to fixing at least 5 papercut
bugs in the next year. So far I have:

Kent James
Mike Conley
Blake Winton
Axel
Aceman
Magnus Melin

In addition we've had a number of additional offers of help. Thanks to
all! I'd like to blog about this in the next few days, including
mentioning the names, as I think it is important that the Thunderbird
project demonstrate some viable community-led action soon to counter the
"Thunderbird is dead" press of last weekend. I would also encourage
anyone who is not on this list already to count themselves in so that we
can have the strongest public presence possible.

So I think we can now agree that this is a serious effort, and it is
time to start targeting bugs that we'd like to look at. The first step
is just for people to use whatever method they want to nominate bugs for
consideration. "Nominate" is just getting them on the table, you are not
necessarily voting for a bug by nominating it.

Is a wiki page a good way to go about this?

rkent


_______________________________________________
tb-planning mailing list
tb-pl...@mozilla.org
https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/tb-planning

[Jb Piacentino]

\o/
This is really great !!

Jb

[Tanstaafl]

On 2012-07-12 11:17 AM, Kent James <ke...@caspia.com> wrote:
> So I think we can now agree that this is a serious effort, and it is
> time to start targeting bugs that we'd like to look at. The first step
> is just for people to use whatever method they want to nominate bugs for
> consideration. "Nominate" is just getting them on the table, you are not
> necessarily voting for a bug by nominating it.

I for one am a bit encouraged by the response, I just hope the momentum
is not lost before things progress...

> Is a wiki page a good way to go about this?

I think so, mainly because even I can mod a wiki page... ;)

[Joshua Cranmer]

On 7/12/2012 11:17 AM, Kent James wrote:
> It's quite encouraging that in a little over one day, we've picked up
> 6 developers who have been willing to commit to fixing at least 5
> papercut bugs in the next year. So far I have:
>
> Kent James
> Mike Conley
> Blake Winton
> Axel
> Aceman
> Magnus Melin
>
> In addition we've had a number of additional offers of help. Thanks to
> all! I'd like to blog about this in the next few days, including
> mentioning the names, as I think it is important that the Thunderbird
> project demonstrate some viable community-led action soon to counter
> the "Thunderbird is dead" press of last weekend. I would also
> encourage anyone who is not on this list already to count themselves
> in so that we can have the strongest public presence possible.
>
> So I think we can now agree that this is a serious effort, and it is
> time to start targeting bugs that we'd like to look at. The first step
> is just for people to use whatever method they want to nominate bugs
> for consideration. "Nominate" is just getting them on the table, you
> are not necessarily voting for a bug by nominating it.
>
> Is a wiki page a good way to go about this?

I've made <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts> to keep track
of this initiative. Please nominate and vote for your most annoying
papercuts! If you have any questions about the process, or you would
like to volunteer to commit to fixing papercuts as well, please email me
or ping me on IRC (:jcranmer).

[Joshua Cranmer]

On 7/12/2012 6:34 PM, Axel wrote:

Joshua,

Josh wrote: I've made <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts> to keep track of this initiative.

so can we just add any bugs we think are annoying (even if we already work on them) ?

(I wasn't quite sure of what constitutes a papercut, but if it is sharp enough to cut me then I would probably think my own bugs are papercuts as well)

Yes, add any bug you think is persistently annoying. The intent is to use voters to see which papercuts are really important and which ones are not.

-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

[Andreas Nilsson]

On 07/12/2012 05:17 PM, Kent James wrote:
> It's quite encouraging that in a little over one day, we've picked up
> 6 developers who have been willing to commit to fixing at least 5
> papercut bugs in the next year. So far I have:
>
> Kent James
> Mike Conley
> Blake Winton
> Axel
> Aceman
> Magnus Melin

I would be happy to fix 5 papercuts in the coming year as well. Add me
to the list!
- Andreas

[Axel]

Joshua,

Josh wrote: I've made <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts> to keep track of this initiative.

so can we just add any bugs we think are annoying (even if we already work on them) ?

(I wasn't quite sure of what constitutes a papercut, but if it is sharp enough to cut me then I would probably think my own bugs are papercuts as well)

Axel

[Kent James]

On 7/12/2012 3:34 PM, Axel wrote:
> (I wasn't quite sure of what constitutes a papercut, but if it is
> sharp enough to cut me then I would probably think my own bugs are
> papercuts as well)

The definition of "papercut" is perfectly left vague, because part of
the intent is to see what is bugging people that they think needs work.
If we restrict the definition too much, then we put too much of our own
bias in the process.

But with that caveat, what I think that we are looking for are flaws
(not major enhancements) that have existed for more than a couple of
release cycles, that you think should have some developer attention.
Whether you use bugzilla searches or your own experience is up to you.
What do you think needs work?

I will be writing a blog about this in the next day or so BTW.

rkent

[Kent James]

On 7/12/2012 4:24 PM, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
> On 07/12/2012 05:17 PM, Kent James wrote:
>> It's quite encouraging that in a little over one day, we've picked up
>> 6 developers who have been willing to commit to fixing at least 5
>> papercut bugs in the next year. So far I have:
>>
>> Kent James
>> Mike Conley
>> Blake Winton
>> Axel
>> Aceman
>> Magnus Melin
> I would be happy to fix 5 papercuts in the coming year as well. Add me
> to the list!
> - Andreas

Great, thanks!

rkent

[Wayne Mery (d531)]

On 7/13/2012 1:48 AM, Kent James wrote:
> On 7/12/2012 3:34 PM, Axel wrote:
>> (I wasn't quite sure of what constitutes a papercut, but if it is
>> sharp enough to cut me then I would probably think my own bugs are
>> papercuts as well)
> The definition of "papercut" is perfectly left vague, because part of
> the intent is to see what is bugging people that they think needs work.
> If we restrict the definition too much, then we put too much of our own
> bias in the process.
>
> But with that caveat, what I think that we are looking for are flaws
> (not major enhancements) that have existed for more than a couple of
> release cycles, that you think should have some developer attention.
> Whether you use bugzilla searches or your own experience is up to you.
> What do you think needs work?
>
> I will be writing a blog about this in the next day or so BTW.
>
> rkent

I admire everyone's enthusiasm but I think we are blazing ahead too
quickly, announcing a process and potentially blogging already only a
couple days after discussion started.

I can't point out all the issues in a couple minutes. But for starters,
people who don't know wiki or bugzilla (or won't be able learn) aren't
going to know what to do.

Secondly, you've limited yourself to the universe of issues reported in
bugzilla.

Third, there's little value to a notation where someone votes for their
own bug.

Fourth, it's trivally easy for someone to nominate a problem that bugs
them. But how about encouraging people to nominate a item that does
*not* affect them but that they know affects many other people?

Fifth, the wiki starts with "issues which aren't complicated". I suggest
most people won't have a clue of whether an issue is complicated to fix
or not.

Can we take a step back please and take a breath?

I'm out of time. More later.
W.

[Kent James]

On 7/13/2012 3:57 AM, Wayne Mery (d531) wrote:
> I admire everyone's enthusiasm but I think we are blazing ahead too
> quickly, announcing a process and potentially blogging already only a
> couple days after discussion started.
>

Right now, we are partly battling time. The Thunderbird brand was
enormously damaged by the announcement of last Friday (dare I say
botched announcement?) that has been interpreted much more negatively
than I think was intended. Now we have a small window of time where
people are watching Thunderbird a little more closely than usual. It is
really critical that a positive statement is given in that window of
time, and that statement needs to show hope that there actually is a
community effort that will back up Thunderbird.

With Andreas and atuljangra also signing up, we now have 8 developers
who have committed to investing in the Thunderbird project over the next
year. It would be good to get that message out, and my target is Sunday
night.

I agree that the rest of the process is not well defined at the moment,
and perhaps you are correct that I should be cautious about talking
about the specifics of a process that is still in development.

But there is a second part of this that I'd also like to talk about
about, and it is a little more delicate. Part of what is going on with
the TB changes is that Mozilla is emphasizing stability over innovation
with Thunderbird. That is actually good news for a large part of the
Thunderbird user base. The last thing many users want is constant,
unnecessary churn in the user interface. (My own pet peeve: removing the
folder class selection from the folder pane, forcing someone to write an
extension to put it back which is now very popular). I would like to
find some positive ways to engage those people. And emphasizing that we
are going to be taking more concrete steps than in the past to try to
listen to their needs, and respond to them, is a Good News story.

But this is delicate because it is partly critical of what Mozilla has
done in the past - or could easily be interpreted that way. It is also
extolling the glories of slower release cycles at a time when Mozilla is
already working to respond to recent criticism of rapid release (the
"Firefox Update Discussion" email). I'm aware of these sensitivities and
want to be careful - but I think that subtle criticism is acceptable and
even desirable.

So I feel strongly that a positive statement of some sort needs to be
put out this weekend, but I feel less strongly about the specifics of
the paper cut process. But that it exists, and that it is reaching out
to users who would prefer stability and quality over innovation, is an
important message that needs to be part of that statement.

Still I welcome further input on what should NOT be said right now.

rkent

[DB Cooper]

I've posted this to Hacker News:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4237900

[acel...@atlas.sk]

If it is OK to nominate bugs that are already in some progress or taken, I'd nominate bug 92165, bug 536768, bug 327812, bug 80855, bug 314806, bug 244347.
Including taken bugs has the advantage that the developer has an idea if he really can fix them. Otherwise commiting to imaginary papercut bugs is problematic when they are not yet determined.

______________________________________________________________
> Od: "Joshua Cranmer" <Pidg...@verizon.net>
> Komu: <tb-pl...@mozilla.org>
> Dátum: 13.07.2012 01:22
> Predmet: Re: Papercuts remixed - the bug list

>----------

[Michel RENON]

Hi,


First of all, I would like to say Thank you to all of you who are
commited to Thunderbird.
I use it daily and I would like to help you as much as possible.

Le 12/07/12 23:22, Joshua Cranmer a écrit :
> [...]

> I've made <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts> to keep track
> of this initiative. Please nominate and vote for your most annoying
> papercuts! If you have any questions about the process, or you would
> like to volunteer to commit to fixing papercuts as well, please email me
> or ping me on IRC (:jcranmer).

I started to enter some papercuts in the wiki ("nominated by michelr").

And if you need other ideas, you can take a look at the exceptional
message :
https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/tb-planning/2012-March/001583.html
It describes very clearly all most annoying problems in thunderbird !
No whizzbang features, only bugs and problems waiting to be solved !



Another point :
It would be extremly usefull to continue the fabulous "Compose"
extension [1], started by Jonathan Protzenko :
- il provides a standard address view (3 standards fields "to", "Cc", "Bcc")
- it provides a correct behaviour when you search an address (from one
of the 3 fields) :
- first elements starts with the text
- others elements contains the text
- in each line, the text is bold
- and as a bonus, the html editor is an uptodate one

I didn't add this point in the papercuts because it's an enhancement,
but it'd solve so many problems.


I currently develop with python, and I start to learn javascript.
So in the next months, i may be able to help debug thunderbird, but only
in the javascript parts.


Thanks,
Michel



[1]
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/thunderbird/addon/compose-for-thunderbird/

[Nomis101]

I have three questions to this papercut bugs (maybe I missed this in
this few emails the last few days):

1. How can I nominate a bug for this papercut buglist?
2. Must a papercut bug a bug that affects all OS'es or can a papercut
bug also a bug which affects only one OS?
3. When is the deadline for nominating a papercut bug?

[Jonathan Protzenko]

Hi,

(I'm the author of the compose extension, as well as several other
ones.)

I would like to point out that some things that people are nominating
for paper cuts are actually pretty hard-to-fix items. I spent a very
significant chunk of my time working on the compose addon, and to be
honest, I think being as very familiar as I am with the Thunderbird
source code, it would take me a full six months to properly fix this,
get reviews, and land it. Without counting the thousands of hours I've
spent learning the internals of Thunderbird...

So as tempting as it is, I think it's beyond the scope of a papercut. I
don't know if other people have mentioned the usual pet peeves (address
book, multi-row message list à la outlook, composition fixes) but I
would consider these to be very hard-to-fix bugs too.

That being said, I would be more than happy to mentor a motivated
contributor who does want to fix composition-related issues. However,
such a drastic change requires coordination. Many significant changes
(e.g. Thunderbird Conversations) never made it into the final product,
so we should be considerate when throwing energy into fixing a bug that
has little chances of being accepted in the end.

Cheers,

jonathan

[Jb Piacentino]

Kent & all,

I immensely appreciate the motivation and energy everybody is putting
behind carrying on with Thunderbird development. However, I think that
it will be very premature and maybe counter productive to make any kind
of announcement or press release at this point in time. Here are some of
the reasons why:
- I don't think we have touched on any governance topics yet and those
will surely need to be discussed and agreed among ourselves, Mozilla
included. I have proposed a schedule which ends on Sept 8/9, i.e MozCamp
Europe. Promising for this or that, without knowing how we will be able
to deliver does not make a lot of sense and can as a matter of fact
backfire at us.
- I am not sure we have discussed anything about the release process
yet. Again, promising papervut fixes, new features ... without having an
idea of what can be done seems premature to me.
- And I could add many more other subjects to this list
- And finally, the press is unlikey to pick-up on the fact that a group
of 8 volunteers is taking up the gauntlet. Add to this that this is
already summertime in Germany and France, 2 of the 3 top territories for TB.

My strong advice is to aim higher and hit the press with some really
substantial and solid news: here is who we are, what are we committing
to, how are we going to deliver, and when...
I can see two windows of opportunity: Thunderbird 15 launch (or 16, or
even 17), and MozCamp Europe. Here is why:
- Thunderbird 15, 16 and 17 will have additional features and partners.
We plan on having a 'big' launch with TB17 on Aug. 28th (which should
feature Thunderbird Chat for example). I think we could surf on "Look,
Thunderbird ain't no dead" and describe what is coming up from the
community at this point in time
- MozCamp Europe: we plan a 'Thunderbird Summit' day on the eve of the
event where those of you who are invited to MozCamp will hopefully join
us and refine the plan that is currently being developped. I can see we
1) can have a wrap-up session with MozCamp attendees to ensure all our
trusted fellows understand where we're going, 2) possibly have a PR
describing the conclusions of this conversation.

Jb

[Joshua Cranmer]

On 7/13/2012 3:12 AM, Nomis101 wrote:
> I have three questions to this papercut bugs (maybe I missed this in
> this few emails the last few days):
>
> 1. How can I nominate a bug for this papercut buglist?

Add it to
<https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts#Papercut_nominations>.

> 2. Must a papercut bug a bug that affects all OS'es or can a papercut
> bug also a bug which affects only one OS?

Affecting only one OS is good enough for nominations.

> 3. When is the deadline for nominating a papercut bug?

I don't think any decisions have been made here.

--
Joshua Cranmer
News submodule owner
DXR coauthor

[Wayne Mery]

Quoting Kent James <ke...@caspia.com>:

>
> On 7/13/2012 3:57 AM, Wayne Mery (d531) wrote:
>> I admire everyone's enthusiasm but I think we are blazing ahead too
>> quickly, announcing a process and potentially blogging already only
>> a couple days after discussion started.
>>
> Right now, we are partly battling time. The Thunderbird brand was
> enormously damaged by the announcement of last Friday (dare I say
> botched announcement?) that has been interpreted much more
> negatively than I think was intended. Now we have a small window of
> time where people are watching Thunderbird a little more closely
> than usual. It is really critical that a positive statement is given
> in that window of time, and that statement needs to show hope that
> there actually is a community effort that will back up Thunderbird.

agree, we can capitalize on media attention. I would argue further,
that the longer we can keep that attention the better. so for example
there should probably be onging, periodic messages.

> With Andreas and atuljangra also signing up, we now have 8
> developers who have committed to investing in the Thunderbird
> project over the next year. It would be good to get that message
> out, and my target is Sunday night.
>
> I agree that the rest of the process is not well defined at the
> moment, and perhaps you are correct that I should be cautious about
> talking about the specifics of a process that is still in development.

Yes, if anything is to be announced, it may be sufficient to say that
a process is being worked on. And ask for community volunteers to help
address the need.

> But there is a second part of this that I'd also like to talk about
> about, and it is a little more delicate. Part of what is going on
> with the TB changes is that Mozilla is emphasizing stability over
> innovation with Thunderbird.

I suggest this point is somewhat overstated, to the extent that media
are saying (and people are repeating it) that Thunderbird won't change
much and that Thunderbird won't be innovated.

Definitely that is what many people are perceiving. But I'm not sure
that's what Mozilla means to say. And I think many people (we for
example) are able to read between the lines to know that there's a lot
that can be done given the direction that's been suggested by Mozilla.

Foremost in Mozilla's message there is, "Mozilla won't be delivering
X". Emphasis on "Mozilla". Not Thunderbird. And then I perceive a
second, hidden message of setting lower expectations of what I can
best characterize as, "don't expect too much in the future".

But beyond these items there is of course much that is unstated or
uknown that the press knows nothing about. For example there is indeed
a significant contributor base, and has been growing in recent years.
Perhaps on a per capita basis it rival's Firefox's - I don't know. But
I know it's nowhere near zero as mnay people seem to think.

> part of the Thunderbird user base. The last thing many users want is
> constant, unnecessary churn in the user interface. (My own pet
> peeve: removing the folder class selection from the folder pane,
> forcing someone to write an extension to put it back which is now
> very popular).

This just happened to me with Firefox nightly where, my most, most,
most used context item "send link" was removed. Thankfully, File |
Send Link still exists. (Which is even better than context menu
because I don't have to use the mouse. Score for keyboard-centric user)

Regarding pet peeves - we still have module owners. And we don't know
yet to what extent changes will be accepted in code. Further, this
leads me to something I've been mulling over some days, which is
people are getting all excited that "we have been liberated", and now
wonderful things are going to happen, my pet bug is going to get
fixed, yada, yada. There is some danger in people having unrealistic
expectations.

> I would like to find some positive ways to engage those people. And
> emphasizing that we are going to be taking more concrete steps than
> in the past to try to listen to their needs, and respond to them, is
> a Good News story.

A good story is good :)

> But this is delicate because it is partly critical of what Mozilla
> has done in the past - or could easily be interpreted that way. It
> is also extolling the glories of slower release cycles at a time
> when Mozilla is already working to respond to recent criticism of
> rapid release (the "Firefox Update Discussion" email). I'm aware of
> these sensitivities and want to be careful - but I think that subtle
> criticism is acceptable and even desirable.
>
> So I feel strongly that a positive statement of some sort needs to
> be put out this weekend, but I feel less strongly about the
> specifics of the paper cut process. But that it exists, and that it
> is reaching out to users who would prefer stability and quality over
> innovation, is an important message that needs to be part of that
> statement.
>
> Still I welcome further input on what should NOT be said right now.

Your concern about sensitivities is well founded. I would also point
out, that there is also flying in various forms criticisms and
complaints of what Thunderbird developers and leadership have done in
specific cases or in general over the past few years, which I think
often lack perspective and are at times even vindictive. I personally
find such comments to be negative energy, not helpful, and to be
avoided at all costs. We are talking about intelligent people,
seasoned professionals, who have tried to do right by the customer and
the community. So I would sooner ask myself what have *I* failed to
contribute and how have *I* failed to act in these past years, and
what can *I* do (*do*, not just say) in the future to make things work
better for Thunderbird (not just me).

Back to your request for input:
- Reaching out of course is good.
- I think the acceptance and nomination of papercut issues should be
delayed until the thing can be better fleshed out.
- Blog posts and announcements should not presume to that they speak
for "the community" or specific futures until there is some leadership
group or process defined to formlate such things.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

[Axel Grude]

If it is OK to nominate bugs that are already in some progress or taken, 

I definitely think this must be possible. Especially these long standing ones are the ones giving Tb somewhat bad press. format=flowed anyone?

[Tanstaafl]

On 2012-07-13 9:19 AM, Kent James <ke...@caspia.com> wrote:
> Right now, we are partly battling time. The Thunderbird brand was
> enormously damaged by the announcement of last Friday (dare I say
> botched announcement?) that has been interpreted much more negatively
> than I think was intended. Now we have a small window of time where
> people are watching Thunderbird a little more closely than usual. It is
> really critical that a positive statement is given in that window of
> time, and that statement needs to show hope that there actually is a
> community effort that will back up Thunderbird.

I agree, and would add that Mozilla really, really should make a very
public and very prominent (on their website) follow-up announcement,
explaining what happened, how it happened, and explaining in a very
public way that Thunderbird is *not* being declare dead, etc - that
would go a long way to repairing the damage that was done....

It is one thing to hear things from you guys here on the lists - it is
an entirely different story, however, when you go to mozilla.com/org...

The fact is, right now, going to either mozilla.com or mozilla.org,
there is no mention, whatsoever, *anywhere*, of this debacle.

In fact, since I kind of just assumed that there was, I'm even more
perplexed... looking at either website, you'd be hard pressed to find
any indication whatsoever that 'mozilla' is anything other than Firefox,
and I could find absolutely *no* mention whatsoever of the Thunderbird
announcement or anything else about it.

What is up with that Mozilla??

[Tanstaafl]

Hi Jonathan,

People like you will be extremely valuable if Thunderbird is to survive
this event with any sense of dignity and respect, and I for one welcome
your willingness to help out.

I think the best thing we (as a community) can do, after reading Jb's
and other comments, is take a few breaths, and focus more on preparing a
framework for moving forward, rather than just diving in before making
sure the pool is filled with water.

Organizing bugs (via the papercuts wiki page) is a good start, creating
master bugs of what would be large undertakings (like the Composer
rewrite, which maybe you could take on), and breaking it down into sub
bugs to make it easier to manage and for others to help out with, etc

As for some kind of payment/bounty system - heck, Mozilla Addons now has
a way for devs to be paid, why not simply let developers register, then
when a bug is fixed and accepted into the core code, their contribution
is added to a 'Developers' page (each registered dev would have one,
just like Addon devs have theirs), with a 'Payment' button that points
to their preferred payment gateway/method (paypal or whatever)...

Incidentally - I've never tried out your Compose extension, but will be
doing so today... thanks!!

On 2012-07-13 10:38 AM, Jonathan Protzenko

<jonathan....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> (I'm the author of the compose extension, as well as several other ones.)
>
> I would like to point out that some things that people are nominating
> for paper cuts are actually pretty hard-to-fix items. I spent a very
> significant chunk of my time working on the compose addon, and to be
> honest, I think being as very familiar as I am with the Thunderbird
> source code, it would take me a full six months to properly fix this,
> get reviews, and land it. Without counting the thousands of hours I've
> spent learning the internals of Thunderbird...
>
> So as tempting as it is, I think it's beyond the scope of a papercut. I
> don't know if other people have mentioned the usual pet peeves (address
> book, multi-row message list à la outlook, composition fixes) but I
> would consider these to be very hard-to-fix bugs too.
>
> That being said, I would be more than happy to mentor a motivated
> contributor who does want to fix composition-related issues. However,
> such a drastic change requires coordination. Many significant changes
> (e.g. Thunderbird Conversations) never made it into the final product,
> so we should be considerate when throwing energy into fixing a bug that
> has little chances of being accepted in the end.
>
> Cheers,
>
> jonathan

_______________________________________________

[Axel]

(CC'ing JBP + Kent here as my Emails go through moderation, no idea why)

Kent James wrote on  Friday, 13/07/12 14:19:03 14:19 GMT Daylight Time +0100

On 7/13/2012 3:57 AM, Wayne Mery (d531) wrote:

I admire everyone's enthusiasm but I think we are blazing ahead too quickly, announcing a process and potentially blogging already only a couple days after discussion started.

Right now, we are partly battling time. The Thunderbird brand was enormously damaged by the announcement of last Friday (dare I say botched announcement?) that has been interpreted much more negatively than I think was intended. Now we have a small window of time where people are watching Thunderbird a little more closely than usual. It is really critical that a positive statement is given in that window of time, and that statement needs to show hope that there actually is a community effort that will back up Thunderbird.

+1

as regards instead of announcing decisions, why not just publicise the fact that there is a group of people actively working on the innovation road map, and (maybe) encourage participation. Of course I wouldn't know whether publicising Tb-Planning toeverybody would be a good move, but some form of publicising has to be done so the public at least knows this isn't stagnant.

With Andreas and atuljangra also signing up, we now have 8 developers who have committed to investing in the Thunderbird project over the next year. It would be good to get that message out, and my target is Sunday night.

I agree that the rest of the process is not well defined at the moment, and perhaps you are correct that I should be cautious about talking about the specifics of a process that is still in development.

there are some enhancements that are long overdue, so restriction to just [["minor"]] fixes would definitely be a mistake. I would be happier if we could land one or two power features aimed at power or corporate users, that directly compete with features from other mail clients (such as a filter wizard, or an improved HTML composer).

But there is a second part of this that I'd also like to talk about about, and it is a little more delicate. Part of what is going on with the TB changes is that Mozilla is emphasizing stability over innovation with Thunderbird. That is actually good news for a large part of the Thunderbird user base. The last thing many users want is constant, unnecessary churn in the user interface. (My own pet peeve: removing the folder class selection from the folder pane, forcing someone to write an extension to put it back which is now very popular).

<pet peeve alarm> It is "One of those" changes falling under the umbrella of "simplification" that can be discussed for a long time (and I was opposed to this as well). Simplification of something that might be inherently "not simple" or "simplification for simplicity's sake" is something that I hope will fall by the wayside with the new innovation model - or at least critically discussed. There are quite a few people in design teams that mistake simple with ergonomic, which is not always the same. I feel this definitely needs further discussion before any major UI decisions (e.g. calendar in window / Compose in Tab) are made.

Without going into detail, I just want to remind everybody of Firefox's controversial "Tabs on Top" decision (which actually makes more sense in Tb) ..., imho it was a hastily implemented feature and not very well researched; let's avoid this trap with Thunderbird and focus on the burning issues.

</pet peeves end>

I would like to find some positive ways to engage those people. And emphasizing that we are going to be taking more concrete steps than in the past to try to listen to their needs, and respond to them, is a Good News story.

It also depends on your target audience - is it mainly developers who read your blog, or your Add-On users? A link would be nice.

But this is delicate because it is partly critical of what Mozilla has done in the past - or could easily be interpreted that way. It is also extolling the glories of slower release cycles at a time when Mozilla is already working to respond to recent criticism of rapid release (the "Firefox Update Discussion" email). I'm aware of these sensitivities and want to be careful - but I think that subtle criticism is acceptable and even desirable.

I think the "rapid release cycle topic" is not something to be emphasized so much, after all before that we did have irregular security updates; so this is really just an internal process, and ultimately discussing it diverts attention from innovation and productivity, which I find much more important from the users point of view. How often one releases isn't something that should be even portrayed as internally contentious.

[Kent James]

On 7/13/2012 8:04 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:

I agree, and would add that Mozilla really, really should make a very public and very prominent (on their website) follow-up announcement, explaining what happened, how it happened, and explaining in a very public way that Thunderbird is *not* being declare dead, etc - that would go a long way to repairing the damage that was done....

There were followup posts from Ludo, MConley, and an interview with JB. Unfortunately clarifications are not effective news, so get missed. Mozilla has made their statement, now the community needs to come forward.

It is one thing to hear things from you guys here on the lists - it is an entirely different story, however, when you go to mozilla.com/org...

The fact is, right now, going to either mozilla.com or mozilla.org, there is no mention, whatsoever, *anywhere*, of this debacle.

In fact, since I kind of just assumed that there was, I'm even more perplexed... looking at either website, you'd be hard pressed to find any indication whatsoever that 'mozilla' is anything other than Firefox, and I could find absolutely *no* mention whatsoever of the Thunderbird announcement or anything else about it.

What is up with that Mozilla??

Mozilla is all about "the web". Have you been to any of the Mozilla conferences? It's very clear there. The only client application that makes sense to them is the web browser (though that may be changing with B2G). They just cannot grok a standalone communication client like Thunderbird.

Fine, I love them anyway. But personally I believe that for the foreseeable future, there is going to be a very large number of people who spend a lot of their day staring at a standalone communications client trying to get their work done. I'm a small businessman by nature, not trying to change the world through the web, so an application with a niche market is enough for me. But that is not how Mozilla views the world, and we really need to stop asking them to change, and just accept them for who they are and be thankful for whatever support they give us.

rkent

[Tanstaafl]

On 2012-07-13 12:34 PM, Kent James <ke...@caspia.com> wrote:
> On 7/13/2012 8:04 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> I agree, and would add that Mozilla really, really should make a very
>> public and very prominent (on their website) follow-up announcement,
>> explaining what happened, how it happened, and explaining in a very
>> public way that Thunderbird is *not* being declare dead, etc - that
>> would go a long way to repairing the damage that was done....

> There were followup posts from Ludo, MConley, and an interview with JB.

*Where*? That is my point. Currently it is *impossible* to just go to
Mozillas website and find out *anything* about this situation. That is,
in my opinion, something easily remedied, and something that Mozilla
*should* remedy, asap.

> Unfortunately clarifications are not effective news, so get missed.
> Mozilla has made their statement, now the community needs to come forward.

I disagree - my point is that there is nothing on mozilla.com or
mozilla.org about this... *anywhere* to be found.

When someone reads a blurb somewhere about 'Mozilla' killing 'Mozilla
Thunderbird', where do you think they might go for an *authoritative*
view of what is really going on? Maybe... mozilla.com (or .org)?

[Mark Banner]

On 13/07/2012 15:55, Jb Piacentino wrote:
> I immensely appreciate the motivation and energy everybody is putting
> behind carrying on with Thunderbird development.

Yes, very much. I'm sorry I haven't been involved as much as I've been
travelling this week.

> However, I think that it will be very premature and maybe counter
> productive to make any kind of announcement or press release at this
> point in time. Here are some of the reasons why:

I'd also like the opportunity to get involved with some additional
suggestions - I won't have time before Monday though.

> - Thunderbird 15, 16 and 17 will have additional features and
> partners. We plan on having a 'big' launch with TB17 on Aug. 28th
> (which should feature Thunderbird Chat for example). I think we could
> surf on "Look, Thunderbird ain't no dead" and describe what is coming
> up from the community at this point in time

Just to clarify, I think JB means TB 15 for the 'big' launch.

Mark

[JoeS]

On 7/13/2012 6:57, Wayne Mery (d531) wrote:
> On 7/13/2012 1:48 AM, Kent James wrote:
>> On 7/12/2012 3:34 PM, Axel wrote:
>>> (I wasn't quite sure of what constitutes a papercut, but if it is
>>> sharp enough to cut me then I would probably think my own bugs are
>>> papercuts as well)
>> The definition of "papercut" is perfectly left vague, because part of
>> the intent is to see what is bugging people that they think needs work.
>> If we restrict the definition too much, then we put too much of our own
>> bias in the process.
>>
>> But with that caveat, what I think that we are looking for are flaws
>> (not major enhancements) that have existed for more than a couple of
>> release cycles, that you think should have some developer attention.
>> Whether you use bugzilla searches or your own experience is up to you.
>> What do you think needs work?
>>
>> I will be writing a blog about this in the next day or so BTW.
>>
>> rkent
>
>
> I admire everyone's enthusiasm but I think we are blazing ahead too
> quickly, announcing a process and potentially blogging already only a
> couple days after discussion started.

OTOH, I think it is important to show _activity_ (of any kind ?) Those
of us that look at daily checkins need to see something.
Certainly, we need a gameplan that has substance, but give spelling
corrections if you must, but something to post.
I'm looking at a dead forum here at:
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2500781

> I can't point out all the issues in a couple minutes. But for starters,
> people who don't know wiki or bugzilla (or won't be able learn) aren't
> going to know what to do.

Wiki editing really sux.
I myself blew away the edit links trying to add a bug there.

> Secondly, you've limited yourself to the universe of issues reported in
> bugzilla.

That's why it's important to spread the word everywhere.

> Third, there's little value to a notation where someone votes for their
> own bug.
>
> Fourth, it's trivally easy for someone to nominate a problem that bugs
> them. But how about encouraging people to nominate a item that does
> *not* affect them but that they know affects many other people?

Nobody is perfect..My bugs are always the important ones :)

> Fifth, the wiki starts with "issues which aren't complicated". I suggest
> most people won't have a clue of whether an issue is complicated to fix
> or not.
>
> Can we take a step back please and take a breath?

I don't agree.
Do something, even if it's wrong.
Not saying this initiative has that flavor, but I think some kind of
reassurance is necessary for the community to rally around.
That means do it now, not later, and publicize it everywhere we can.

--
JoeS
jsa...@bellatlantic.net

[Wayne Mery (d531)]

On 7/14/2012 12:53 AM, JoeS wrote:
> On 7/13/2012 6:57, Wayne Mery (d531) wrote:
>> On 7/13/2012 1:48 AM, Kent James wrote:
>>> On 7/12/2012 3:34 PM, Axel wrote:
>>>> (I wasn't quite sure of what constitutes a papercut, but if it is
>>>> sharp enough to cut me then I would probably think my own bugs are
>>>> papercuts as well)
>>> The definition of "papercut" is perfectly left vague, because part of
>>> the intent is to see what is bugging people that they think needs work.
>>> If we restrict the definition too much, then we put too much of our own
>>> bias in the process.
>>>
>>> But with that caveat, what I think that we are looking for are flaws
>>> (not major enhancements) that have existed for more than a couple of
>>> release cycles, that you think should have some developer attention.
>>> Whether you use bugzilla searches or your own experience is up to you.
>>> What do you think needs work?
>>>
>>> I will be writing a blog about this in the next day or so BTW.
>>>
>>> rkent
>>

>>...

>> I can't point out all the issues in a couple minutes. But for starters,
>> people who don't know wiki or bugzilla (or won't be able learn) aren't
>> going to know what to do.
>
> Wiki editing really sux.
> I myself blew away the edit links trying to add a bug there.
>
>> Secondly, you've limited yourself to the universe of issues reported in
>> bugzilla.
>
> That's why it's important to spread the word everywhere.

My point is not about spreading the word specifically, but about the
fact that the current papercut process is wikicentric and
bugzillacentric. So I think the scope, definition and process of
papercuts could benifit from revision before wide publicity occurs.

Part of my concern is we want to be able to deliver as much good as
possbile, because we have limited developer resources and want to
minimize the management effort. So
a) I don't think we need a huge list of issues that is mostly a
regurgitation of the buzilla database, nor do we need a list of every
single issue that one person can think of.
b) who is managing the 200-400 or more nominations? Consider the counts
wanted-thuderbird3 flags -- 500 for "+" [1] (195 still open), 164 for
"?" [2], 92 for "-" [3].

Also, it has been stated that there will be voting (which I am in favor
of). How then does one for vote for nominations that straggle in.

>> Third, there's little value to a notation where someone votes for their
>> own bug.
>>
>> Fourth, it's trivally easy for someone to nominate a problem that bugs
>> them. But how about encouraging people to nominate a item that does
>> *not* affect them but that they know affects many other people?
>
> Nobody is perfect..My bugs are always the important ones :)

Permit me to restate to give my suggestion more flavor ...
IF this is a community, THEN perhaps we want to think and act more like
a community.

(And not everyone has great personal needs. I have only 2-3 issues that
really bug me daily. So I'll champion issues I know affect others.)

>> Fifth, the wiki starts with "issues which aren't complicated". I suggest
>> most people won't have a clue of whether an issue is complicated to fix
>> or not.
>>
>> Can we take a step back please and take a breath?
>
> I don't agree.
> Do something, even if it's wrong.

You really want the public to see the community demonstrating flawed
management?

> Not saying this initiative has that flavor, but I think some kind of
> reassurance is necessary for the community to rally around.
> That means do it now, not later, and publicize it everywhere we can.

It's summer, so not everyone can particpate in tb-planning at break neck
speed. Plus, personal and work lives generally take priority.



[1] wanted-thunderbird3+ -
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?type1-0-0=substring;list_id=3725718;field0-0-0=flagtypes.name;type1-0-1=allwordssubstr;classification=Client%20Software;classification=Components;query_format=advanced;type0-0-0=equals;value0-0-0=wanted-thunderbird3%2B%20;field1-0-0=short_desc;product=MailNews%20Core;product=Thunderbird;field1-0-1=short_desc

[2] wanted-thunderbird3? -
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?type1-0-0=substring;list_id=3725733;field0-0-0=flagtypes.name;type1-0-1=allwordssubstr;classification=Client%20Software;classification=Components;query_format=advanced;type0-0-0=equals;value0-0-0=wanted-thunderbird3%3F;field1-0-0=short_desc;product=MailNews%20Core;product=Thunderbird;field1-0-1=short_desc

[3] wanted-thunderbird- -
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?type1-0-0=substring;list_id=3725757;field0-0-0=flagtypes.name;type1-0-1=allwordssubstr;resolution=---;classification=Client%20Software;classification=Components;query_format=advanced;type0-0-0=equals;value0-0-0=wanted-thunderbird3-;field1-0-0=short_desc;product=MailNews%20Core;product=Thunderbird;field1-0-1=short_desc

[Wayne Mery (d531)]

For reasons stated at
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/tb-planning/rfR7wvRi158/9b2mVdbDps0J
I perhaps have more questions than answers.

What's stated at https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts is
fantastic in a limited context - "To prove that Thunderbird's
development is not going to die, several people have committed
themselves to fixing five papercuts in a single year. This page is for
tracking the status of these papercut fixes.".

I applaud the effort but I suggest we need to go further.

I've posted my thoughts on papercuts in the etherpad at
https://etherpad.mozilla.org/tb-papercuts

[Mark Banner]

On 12/07/2012 22:22, Joshua Cranmer wrote:

I've made <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts> to keep track of this initiative. Please nominate and vote for your most annoying papercuts! If you have any questions about the process, or you would like to volunteer to commit to fixing papercuts as well, please email me or ping me on IRC (:jcranmer).

I like the ideas in papercuts, and unfortunately I haven't had time between travelling, doing releases and now taking some holiday to add to it.

I think something that would be worth adding to the list is the top 10-20 topics in support if they are relevant as papercuts. I'm sure Roland or the support team can extract a list from getsatisfaction.

It'd also be great if we could somehow bring these efforts together into a developer get involved page for Thunderbird (as mentioned elsewhere) - we've already got Up for Grabs and the bugsahoy schemes and as a collection, that would give a range of projects to potential new developers that would cover from the simple to the advanced.

Mark.

[ace]

It seems my nominations sent to the list were not added to the papercuts
wiki. Can anybody do that. I probably do not have permissions.
Thanks,

aceman

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Papercuts remixed - the bug list
From: Mark Banner <mba...@mozilla.com>
To: tb-pl...@mozilla.org
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:00:28 +0100

> On 12/07/2012 22:22, Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> I've made <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts> to keep
>> track of this initiative. Please nominate and vote for your most
>> annoying papercuts! If you have any questions about the process, or
>> you would like to volunteer to commit to fixing papercuts as well,
>> please email me or ping me on IRC (:jcranmer).
> I like the ideas in papercuts, and unfortunately I haven't had time
> between travelling, doing releases and now taking some holiday to add to it.
>
> I think something that would be worth adding to the list is the top
> 10-20 topics in support if they are relevant as papercuts. I'm sure
> Roland or the support team can extract a list from getsatisfaction.
>
> It'd also be great if we could somehow bring these efforts together into
> a developer get involved page for Thunderbird (as mentioned elsewhere) -
> we've already got Up for Grabs

> <https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/UpForGrabs> and the bugsahoy
> <http://www.joshmatthews.net/bugsahoy/?thunderbird=1> schemes and as a

> collection, that would give a range of projects to potential new
> developers that would cover from the simple to the advanced.
>
> Mark.
>
>

[Magnus Melin]

On 16/07/2012 05:40 PM, Wayne Mery (d531) wrote:
> For reasons stated at
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/tb-planning/rfR7wvRi158/9b2mVdbDps0J
> I perhaps have more questions than answers.
>
> What's stated at https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Papercuts is
> fantastic in a limited context - "To prove that Thunderbird's
> development is not going to die, several people have committed
> themselves to fixing five papercuts in a single year. This page is for
> tracking the status of these papercut fixes.".
>
> I applaud the effort but I suggest we need to go further.
>
> I've posted my thoughts on papercuts in the etherpad at
> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/tb-papercuts
>

I agree the papercut initiative needs to be more clearly forumulated.
That etherpad page seems like a good start! E.g. architectural
improvements don't really seem like papercuts imo (though they are
important for sure). "Fix easy little things that are making Thunderbird
worse to use" is indeed what it's all about (though easy/small may or
may not mean it's easy to fix.

-Magnus

[Unicorn.Consulting]

On 17/07/2012 12:04 AM, Wayne Mery (d531) wrote:

My point is not about spreading the word specifically, but about the fact that the current papercut process is wikicentric and bugzillacentric. So I think the scope, definition and process of papercuts could benifit from revision before wide publicity occurs.

Part of my concern is we want to be able to deliver as much good as possbile, because we have limited developer resources and want to minimize the management effort. So
a) I don't think we need a huge list of issues that is mostly a regurgitation of the buzilla database, nor do we need a list of every single issue that one person can think of.
b) who is managing the 200-400 or more nominations?  Consider the counts wanted-thuderbird3 flags -- 500 for "+" [1] (195 still open), 164 for "?" [2], 92 for "-" [3].

Also, it has been stated that there will be voting (which I am in favor of).  How then does one for vote for nominations that straggle in.

Perhaps like with most things. There are the quick and the dead.  If the nominations are later, and of general importance there is a reasonable chance someone else will put the same thing up.

Seriously however, I think that we should consider using test pilot for the feed back/voting part.  While we are all talking with the best of intentions, might it not be quite illuminating if we actually ask the user base in terms of  "if you could have 5 changes to Thunderbird in the next year, which of the following would you choose?" and include a "don't change anything" option

Matt