Moscow University Rector (repost)
Mikhail S. Verbitsky
bec...@mierzyn.cs.odu.edu (Jacob Becher) writes:
>Does anybody out their on the net know who the director of
>Moscow State University is? I'm interested in his name and
>if possible a mailing address as well as a email address..
>thanks ----- Jake Becker
I don't remember if I posted this article in t.p.s
or in soc.culture.soviet only. Anyway, there is repost
of my friend's letter with some of my comments.
I don't know about his (rector's) email, but you can
reach him by :
Moskva, Leninskie (Vorob'iovy?) gory,
MGU, rektorat, V. A. Sadovnichiemu.
or (even better)
Moscow, Moscow State University, rectorat, V. A. Sadovnichii
Election took a place about one month ago, when I've posted
the following article.
REPOST:
This letter was send me by a friend from Moscow with
a request to post it to USENET. My comments:
1. The author of this letter is a well-known mathematician
and has no personal reasons to dislike Sadovnichiy.
2. Sadovnichiy is extremely corrupt official (worse even than
Logunov, the previous rector). His mathematical reputation is very
bad also. For instanse, by some reports, his habilitation thesis
("doktorskaya dissertattsia"), huge mathematical work required
from a candidate to full professor post, was written by
other person. This work consists of several mistakes, and
it could never pass in Moscow. Apparently Sadovnichiy
knew it, but he managed to complete the required procedure
in Georgia. I don't know if this is true, but the story is
well known.
3. Antisemitism of Sadovnichiy is fabulous (the same disclaimer:
I don't know if this is true, he never expresses it publicitly).
There is the letter:
Victor Antonovich Sadovnicniy is elected as the Rector of
Moscow State University (instead of Anatoly Alexeevich Logunov)
March 23, 1992.
There were four candidates:
Emelyanov, a "progressive economist" specializing in
agriculture;
Lunin, former a Parteigenosse of the Chemical Dept., then a
supporter of "democratic forces"
Skulachev, a biologist
Sadovnichiy, the first Deputy Rector (while Logunov was a
Rector)
After the first round of election Sadovnichiy and Skulachev
remain; in the second round Sadovnichiy had 537 votes of 921.
Some comments.
Lunin seemed to have no support at all; Emelyanov was
supported by the "democratic" government (a minister of science,
Saltykov, had a talk on the election meeting supporting him but
got a bad response). Skulachev was considered as an only real
scientist among candidates, Sadovnichiy was supported by old
university high-rank functioners (many of whom were his creatures
and take part in the elections). It seemed that Logunov was not
supported by them because he had a conflict with Eltsin when
both were the members of Communist Party Central Commitee and
now is not an appropriate person to get money from government.
Sadovnichiy was a First Deputy Rector while Logunov was a rector.
As a Chairman of Admission Commitee he is directly responsible
for the antisemithism and other corruption in the University.
His speciality is mathematics but his qualification is doubtful.
He is well known as a sleemy pragmatic without any principles.
A prediction.
One may expect that the policy of old University
administration -- to push away qualified and independent
people -- would continue (but more carefully, at least in the
current general political situation). The is no hope of the
resurrection of the University: qualified people are undesirable
for Sadovnichiy and they consider Sadovnichiy as too dirty to
cooperate with. But Moscow University still has some reputation
among western people and potential applicants. It has also a lot
of buildings as its property and can make a lot of money leasing
them. Sadovnichiy would probably try to get funding from Russian
government and western funds etc. and to get money from a
commercial activity around University.
Instead of a conclusion.
1. Sadovnichiy dismissed Logunov (who was famous for his
crazy attemts to argue with relativity theory) and this make
no big difference -- but it is the end of hope to get a good
rector.
2. Russian government should not make attempts to find
"extra money to save Moscow University" -- it would not help
while it has such a rector.
3. Western funds who want to help Soviet science should
help directly qualified people (including the people working
in Moscow University) but never start any joint project
with University administration (10% of money would be used for
good, 90% would be wasted or used for bad).
4. There is a more general problem raised by these
elections: the ideal of a self-administrating academic community
has its fault -- if the unqualified people once have the majority
this situation become extremely stable.
Alexander Shen,
former student of Moscow University
Sender: Misha Verbitsky.
Sergei Borodin
I don't know how bad the new rector is, but apparently the author
of this letter belongs to a different scientific mafia (legitimate
name is "scientific school"). This results the whole attitude.
>1. The author of this letter is a well-known mathematician
>and has no personal reasons to dislike Sadovnichiy.
That is not obvious. Neither that the author is well known
nor that he has no personal reasons, I would guess that he
really has only *personal* reasons.
>
>2. Sadovnichiy is extremely corrupt official (worse even than
>Logunov, the previous rector). His mathematical reputation is very
>bad also. For instanse, by some reports, his habilitation thesis
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>("doktorskaya dissertattsia"), huge mathematical work required
>from a candidate to full professor post, was written by
>other person. This work consists of several mistakes, and
>it could never pass in Moscow. Apparently Sadovnichiy
>knew it, but he managed to complete the required procedure
>in Georgia. I don't know if this is true, but the story is
>well known. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
Somebody drunk told you in a kitchen? I'm not defending Sadovnichiy,
I just would like to know who was that person, who made "several mistakes"
in Sadovnichyi's "doktorskaya dissertattsia"? And if you don't know
if "this is true" why are you telling the story. Presumably, a person is
not guilty unless you prove it. Thus, if you don't know if it's true and
keep telling it - you are a liar.
Apparently, the fact that a person "completed the required procedure"
somewhere ( in our case in Georgia) doesn't mean anything. In old days,
a person had to be assigned to some institution to complete his thesis,
and you know that. This procedure didn't really depends on a person.
>3. Antisemitism of Sadovnichiy is fabulous (the same disclaimer:
>I don't know if this is true, he never expresses it publicitly).
>
Again, if you don't know - don't say! How "Antisemitism of Sadovnichiy"
can be fabulous if "he never expresses it publicitly"? Just because the
new rector have never been delighted by the work of the author of this
letter you made such a conclusion, didn't you?
>There is the letter:
>
>
some junk deleted
>Sadovnichiy was a First Deputy Rector while Logunov was a rector.
>As a Chairman of Admission Commitee he is directly responsible
>for the antisemithism and other corruption in the University.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is antisemithism a corruption? Tell me something about it? Even
the understanding what did you mean by that would be enough. But let
me guess. You, perhaps, meant that a jewish boy didn't pass admission
tests, didn't you. What about a russian one? Can I call rusophobia, or
it's the "one way ticket"?
> A prediction.
>
Seems too many predictors around here.
> One may expect that the policy of old University
>administration -- to push away qualified and independent
>people
As the author of this letter? And of course the author cares about
the future of Science, doesn't he?
>
> Instead of a conclusion.
>
> 1. Sadovnichiy dismissed Logunov (who was famous for his
>crazy attemts to argue with relativity theory) and this make
>no big difference -- but it is the end of hope to get a good
>rector.
>
As far as I know, Logunov has a doubt that the author of the "Theory
of relativity" was Einstein. That's all. What's wrong with it?
He didn't argue with the theory itself.
What is a "good rector"? Convenient for the author? From the same mafia?
> 2. Russian government should not make attempts to find
>"extra money to save Moscow University" -- it would not help
>while it has such a rector.
>
> 3. Western funds who want to help Soviet science should
>help directly qualified people (including the people working
>in Moscow University) but never start any joint project
>with University administration (10% of money would be used for
>good, 90% would be wasted or used for bad).
>
Again the old marxist approach. They always know better what to do.
> 4. There is a more general problem raised by these
>elections: the ideal of a self-administrating academic community
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>has its fault -- if the unqualified people once have the majority
>this situation become extremely stable.
>
I know how it looks like and how it works. It looks like a bazaar and
it doesn't work. Too many meetings, people just have no time to work, they
could spend several hours to make a simple decision, which would take a few
seconds being solved in "non-democratic" way.
For the last few years, when I worked in some (btw, not in a bad one)
scientific institution in xSU, we had such kind of "democracy". It works
like I said.
> Alexander Shen,
>
> former student of Moscow University
>
>
>Sender: Misha Verbitsky.
>
Sergei Borodin
Igor Belchinskiy
>
>
>
> I don't know how bad the new rector is, but apparently the author
I always thought that silence is the best choice when you
don't know something. But not for Sovok. Reminds classic
"I never read (or seen or known or whatever) but I should say..."
OK, I've never met Sadovnichiy. But I have known a lot of respectful
peoples whom I believe and who didn't like to mention him.
And his anti-semitic reputation was really fabulous -
at least dozen or five years ago.
And I think somebody from 57 should say words in defence
of Alexander Shen'.
BTW, other theme (after KSP) for nostalgic reminisciences
may be "physmatshkoly" (physical and mathematical specialized
high school).
2, 57, 91, 179
> Sergei Borodin
>
--
- Igor Belchinskiy b...@bsdi.com Here and now.
- Berkeley Software Design, Inc +1(703)876-5040
Gregory Landsberg
>
> I don't know how bad the new rector is, but apparently the author
> of this letter belongs to a different scientific mafia (legitimate
> name is "scientific school"). This results the whole attitude.
>
Hey? What are you talking about, buddy? There are mafia and scientific
schools, but they never intersects! I don't know what do you study at
your university, but such an approach to the science seems to be at
least strange for a student. And all of us know very well about the
real and false scientific schools in Moscow university (latters could
be traced from Stalin's age /Ivanenko, Sokolov and Co. in physics,
e.g./ to nowadays).
>
> >1. The author of this letter is a well-known mathematician
> >and has no personal reasons to dislike Sadovnichiy.
>
> That is not obvious. Neither that the author is well known
> nor that he has no personal reasons, I would guess that he
> really has only *personal* reasons.
>
Well, Shen' is really rather well known mathematician; I know about
him even not being a mathematician, and the only fact that YOU don't
know him is your own problem, believe me. BTW, he was (is ?) a teacher
in the well-know Moscow school #57 and I hope that somebody from this
school (M.Verbitsky ?) can tell more about him.
> >
> >2. Sadovnichiy is extremely corrupt official (worse even than
> >Logunov, the previous rector). His mathematical reputation is very
> >bad also. For instanse, by some reports, his habilitation thesis
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >("doktorskaya dissertattsia"), huge mathematical work required
> >from a candidate to full professor post, was written by
> >other person. This work consists of several mistakes, and
> >it could never pass in Moscow. Apparently Sadovnichiy
> >knew it, but he managed to complete the required procedure
> >in Georgia. I don't know if this is true, but the story is
> >well known. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> Somebody drunk told you in a kitchen? I'm not defending Sadovnichiy,
> I just would like to know who was that person, who made "several mistakes"
> in Sadovnichyi's "doktorskaya dissertattsia"? And if you don't know
> if "this is true" why are you telling the story. Presumably, a person is
> not guilty unless you prove it. Thus, if you don't know if it's true and
> keep telling it - you are a liar.
> Apparently, the fact that a person "completed the required procedure"
> somewhere ( in our case in Georgia) doesn't mean anything. In old days,
> a person had to be assigned to some institution to complete his thesis,
> and you know that. This procedure didn't really depends on a person.
Well, guy, it seems that you came here not from XSSR but at least from
the moon. Even from the dark side of it! Perhaps you are the only one
``relict'' who don't know about bogus Thesises passed in Georgia,
Sibiria and other places. Anticipating possible flames I would like to
mention that I don't want to say that Georgian or Sibirian science is
worse than Moscow one. I just want to say that the number of bogus
Thesises passed in province was larger than in Moscow, perhaps due to
the larger scale of corruption in province. And let the people who
know situation in mathematics and who ARE mathematicians speak about
it!
>
> >3. Antisemitism of Sadovnichiy is fabulous (the same disclaimer:
> >I don't know if this is true, he never expresses it publicitly).
> >
> Again, if you don't know - don't say! How "Antisemitism of Sadovnichiy"
> can be fabulous if "he never expresses it publicitly"? Just because the
> new rector have never been delighted by the work of the author of this
> letter you made such a conclusion, didn't you?
>
> <...>
>
> Is antisemithism a corruption? Tell me something about it? Even
> the understanding what did you mean by that would be enough. But let
> me guess. You, perhaps, meant that a jewish boy didn't pass admission
> tests, didn't you. What about a russian one? Can I call rusophobia, or
> it's the "one way ticket"?
>
Cut this two paragraphs and send them to ``Pamyat' '' - it's 100%
chance for you to increase the number of your publications! You never
heard about antisemithism on mechmat and VMK? The antisemithism which
became fabulous, where the Jewish origins were traced by computers, so
that even people who have 1/4 of Jewish blood were marked! You want to
know names? You want to have an examples of ``coffins'' (``grobi'')
which were used by examiners to cut these marked persons? Well, Foma
Neveruyuschij is much more immortal personage than Agaspher...
>
> As the author of this letter? And of course the author cares about
> the future of Science, doesn't he?
>
Yes, he does. And he cares about the future of science in XSSR, and
BEING IN XSSR. And you, being on the other side of Atlantics at least
have no moral rights to ironize about it! The more, you even don't
know Shen' as you told in the beginning.
> As far as I know, Logunov has a doubt that the author of the "Theory
> of relativity" was Einstein. That's all. What's wrong with it?
> He didn't argue with the theory itself.
> What is a "good rector"? Convenient for the author? From the same mafia?
As once was mentioned in this group (not very literate, but rather
witty),. ``you know not too far.'' Being a physicist, I know pretty
well the scientific ideas of Logunov. First of all he argued with the
theory itself, and not with the fact that Einstein is an author of it
(well, how one can argue with this, I doubt?). The second, a person
can argue with any theory of course, but Logunov's attempts were very
poor from the scientific point of view. He is absolutely not known as
a physicist to the world scientific community. He is just an
administrator from science as was told in Verbitsky letter. And the
words ``bad rector'' mean that most people from the MSU were not agree
to be ``under Logunov'' and the attempts to dismiss him started at
least three years ago. And Shen' just wanted to attract the attention
of the community to the fact that new rector is even more odious
figure than an old one.
> Again the old marxist approach. They always know better what to do.
ROFL (rolling on the floor laughing)! YOU tell us about marxist
approach?! You even didn't know peoples about whom there was a letter
and you try to tell us that the authors are not right. ``Knigi ne
chital (filma ne smotrell, ...) , no no schitayu svoim dolgom
skazat'...''
>
> > 4. There is a more general problem raised by these
> >elections: the ideal of a self-administrating academic community
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >has its fault -- if the unqualified people once have the majority
> >this situation become extremely stable.
> >
> I know how it looks like and how it works. It looks like a bazaar and
> it doesn't work. Too many meetings, people just have no time to work, they
> could spend several hours to make a simple decision, which would take a few
> seconds being solved in "non-democratic" way.
> For the last few years, when I worked in some (btw, not in a bad one)
> scientific institution in xSU, we had such kind of "democracy". It works
> like I said.
Well, if you are not satisfied with a democratic way of making the
decisions, I may only doubt why did you choose American democracy...
Welcome to ``revived'' MSU, buddy!
Cheers,
Greg Landsberg
Leonid Levin
> I don't know how bad the new rector is, but apparently the author
> of this letter belongs to a different scientific mafia (legitimate
> I would guess that he really has only *personal* reasons.
I know the author (Alexander Shen). He is a young but quite excellent
mathematician. He spent a semester here at MIT and made a great impression.
Placing him in some kind of a "mafia" is baseless. Unless you mean mafia of
Einstein (versus one of Logunov), as you say later:
> [...] As far as I know, Logunov has a doubt that the author of the
> "Theory of relativity" was Einstein. That's all. What's wrong with it?
> He didn't argue with the theory itself.
> What is a "good rector"? Convenient for the author? From the same mafia?
>>2. Sadovnichiy is extremely corrupt official (worse even than Logunov,
>>the previous rector). His mathematical reputation is very bad also. [...]
> Apparently, the fact that a person "completed the required procedure"
> somewhere (in our case in Georgia) doesn't mean anything. In old days,
> a person had to be assigned to some institution to complete his thesis,
> and you know that. This procedure didn't really depends on a person.
No, this is not assigned. Members of communist hierarchy going to Georgia
for defense means exactly what Shen implies: escape from a peer review.
He was no dissident or Jew, so it was not an escape from discrimination.
> Again, if you don't know - don't say! How "Antisemitism of Sadovnichiy"
> can be fabulous if "he never expresses it publicly"?
Public expression of antisemitism was a crime under the hypocritical communist
Law. Un-expressed (but otherwise quite open) antisemitism in Moscow University
was widely known.
>>Sadovnichiy was a First Deputy Rector while Logunov was a rector.
>>As a Chairman of Admission Committee he is directly responsible
>>for the antisemitism and other corruption in the University.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Is antisemitism a corruption? Tell me something about it?
Aha, now everything is clear!
Leonid Levin, Professor /Boston U./, Visiting Scientist /MIT/.
P.S. I knew Sadovnichiy. I am not sure that he hates Jews himself, but he did
play an active role in implementing Brezhnev's policies directed against Jews,
Freedom, and Science. Regarding his scientific reputation: he had none.
Mikhail S. Verbitsky
>In <75...@netnews.upenn.edu> ser...@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu writes:
>
>>
>> I don't know how bad the new rector is, but apparently the author
>> of this letter belongs to a different scientific mafia (legitimate
>> name is "scientific school"). This results the whole attitude.
We shall see where belongs S. Borodin....
>Well, guy, it seems that you came here not from XSSR but at least from
>the moon. Even from the dark side of it! Perhaps you are the only one
You've got it, Grisha! Almost true. He is apparently former
Steklovka's faculty member. Known for his rabid
antisemithism. May be, though, he is another Borodin.
But *the* Borodin from Steklovka is now in Univ. of Penn.
For netters who don't know what Steklovka is (this
topic was discussed on the net one month ego): Steklovka
is Mathematical Institute of Academia of Sciences.
There was *one* Jew among >300 faculty members for
some 40 years (Naimark). This institution is well
known for its antisemithism.
>You never
>heard about antisemithism on mechmat and VMK? The antisemithism which
>became fabulous, where the Jewish origins were traced by computers, so
>that even people who have 1/4 of Jewish blood were marked! You want to
>know names? You want to have an examples of ``coffins'' (``grobi'')
>which were used by examiners to cut these marked persons? Well, Foma
>Neveruyuschij is much more immortal personage than Agaspher...
He heard, most probably he sat at these computers... :)
>
> You even didn't know peoples about whom there was a letter
>and you try to tell us that the authors are not right. ``Knigi ne
>chital (filma ne smotrell, ...) , no no schitayu svoim dolgom
>skazat'...''
>
Why, he probably know them all better than you and me... :)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Greg Landsberg
Misha. (Please note smileys!)
Viznyuk
>
>You've got it, Grisha! Almost true. He is apparently former
>Steklovka's faculty member. Known for his rabid
>antisemithism. May be, though, he is another Borodin.
>But *the* Borodin from Steklovka is now in Univ. of Penn.
>For netters who don't know what Steklovka is (this
>topic was discussed on the net one month ego): Steklovka
>is Mathematical Institute of Academia of Sciences.
>There was *one* Jew among >300 faculty members for
>some 40 years (Naimark). This institution is well
>known for its antisemithism.
>
Serezha
Alexander Burshteyn
<stuff deleted>
>BTW, other theme (after KSP) for nostalgic reminisciences
>may be "physmatshkoly" (physical and mathematical specialized
>high school).
>
>2, 57, 91, 179
<stuff deleted>
>--
>- Igor Belchinskiy b...@bsdi.com Here and now.
>- Berkeley Software Design, Inc +1(703)876-5040
How about school No.145 in Kiev, No.239 in St.Petersburg, No.1 in Riga, etc.?
Post your memoirs!
Alex Burshteyn
Unused guest account
Hi, folks
Your discussion about Sadovnichiy and MSU seems to be politicized
and sprinkled with semitism/antisemitism flavour.
I was studying and working in Moscow State University for 10 years,
and here is my opinion: not the rector alone is responsible for
university policy, though he has significant influence on it.
Many things are decided at department level. This is so because there is
noticeable difference in quality of departments and institutes which
may not be possible if everything was directed by one person.
I wouldn't like to analyze these differences in detail because
I don't want personal insults and flame war.
So I recommend to people who wish to make contacts with university
scientists not to start with rector. The better thing is to look at
departments. The best is to talk to `live' professors engaged in
activity which is interesting to you. BTW, Moscow University has
e-mail (*@*.msu.su).
Sadovnichiy is bureaucrat, not a scientist. It is quite obvious to
everyone in university. However, Yeltzin is also former Party 1st
secretary and not prominent leader of capitalist world. So, I think
university won't die with Sadovnichiy on the top. However,
there exist better men for this position.
Vadim Maslov.
Unused guest account
"Unite, former fizmatshkol'niki!" proposal can be a good starting point
for a discussion.
Is here anyone who dislike PhMSh? For what reasons? (KSP analogies ...)
Maybe some former phymyshata hear me? I am interested in talking to
them.
Vadim Maslov.
Vadim Antonov
are eager to judge others on the base of rumors of unknown origin.
For example:
In article <1992Apr24.2...@dxcern.cern.ch>
>G...@fnal.fnal.gov (Gregory Landsberg) writes:
> ...You never
>heard about antisemithism on mechmat and VMK? The antisemithism which
>became fabulous, where the Jewish origins were traced by computers, so
>that even people who have 1/4 of Jewish blood were marked! You want to
>know names? You want to have an examples of ``coffins'' (``grobi'')
>which were used by examiners to cut these marked persons? Well, Foma
>Neveruyuschij is much more immortal personage than Agaspher...
Hm. I was graduated from VMK (as well as a number of my friends of Jewish
origin) and can vouch that there was much more sexual discrimination than
ethnic. Sure, some so-called "tutors" were really ugly in their ethnic
intolerance; but i will never agree that it became an official policy (at
least in the years i spent in Moscow U).
Concerning that fabulous computer program -- so it happened that i
personally knew it's author (btw, he belongs to the so-called "ethinc
minority") and SAW THE ACTUAL CODE. Surely it wasn't an evil anti-Jewish
artificial intelligence (could anybody who ever saw a computer believe it?)
but a simple record retrieval system. One of the functions of this system
was to assign randomly-selected numbers to applicants TO PROTECT THEM
from discrimination and block opportunities to corruption. An examiner
simply had no ways to get the real name of a guy/girl he was going to
talk with (and his/her nationality as well).
Another *fact* (i behold it myself and know the real people and can give
references to anybody who likes it) -- for several years the sercretary of
VMK's admission comission was a Jew (he's my friend, as well). Any
questions about the so-called "antisemitism" on VMK?
>> Again the old marxist approach. They always know better what to do.
>
>ROFL (rolling on the floor laughing)! YOU tell us about marxist
>approach?! You even didn't know peoples about whom there was a letter
>and you try to tell us that the authors are not right. ``Knigi ne
>chital (filma ne smotrell, ...) , no no schitayu svoim dolgom
>skazat'...''
Ch'ya by korova mychala... (sorry can't resist). First, NEVER talk
about things you know only by rumors, and only then you'll have right
to demand it from others.
Concerning A.A.Sadovnichiy i agree that he is a Stalin-type bueraucrat;
though my opinion can be biased (i have a personal experience of dealing
with him... these as**les tried to throw me out of Moscow U for four
times (and once succeded, but had to cancel this decision... thanks to
all people who said a good word to defend me).
The main danger to the future of Moscow U is not in the bunch of
bueraucrats usurping the rule over U; as experience shows even a
student can resist them. The real problem is the VERY low salaries
of it's staff, terrible shortage of equipment and poor living conditions
in dorms. It actually forces talented people to leave Moscow and
look for a job in private sector. If this trend will persist i wouldn't be
surprised to see the fall of the Moscow U. The "commercialization" of
higher education in Russia is the grim necessity, not an invention of
bueraucrats (hm, don't you think they can invent anything?)
Finally, although Moscow U has e-mail connectivity (i registered the
domain name for Moscow U myself) i don't think the rector reads/receives
or even know about e-mail. Writing him letters on paper is a waste of
time as well -- 99% they will get lost in the huge reservations of
Moscow U's buerocracy. If anybody wants to conduct joint research or
run other projects involving Moscow U i'd advice him to find really
interesed people from the "bottom". Corporate-style "external contacts
only through CEO" simply do not work there.
For details concerning the current state of e-mail in Moscow U please
contact postm...@hq.demos.su (Dmitry Volodin), i can't provide
up-to-date information.
Vadim Antonov
Gregory Landsberg
> Concerning that fabulous computer program -- so it happened that i
> personally knew it's author (btw, he belongs to the so-called "ethinc
> minority") and SAW THE ACTUAL CODE. Surely it wasn't an evil anti-Jewish
> artificial intelligence (could anybody who ever saw a computer believe it?)
> but a simple record retrieval system. One of the functions of this system
> was to assign randomly-selected numbers to applicants TO PROTECT THEM
> from discrimination and block opportunities to corruption. An examiner
> simply had no ways to get the real name of a guy/girl he was going to
> talk with (and his/her nationality as well).
Don't be naive! Of course I meant not this computer program. And it's your
own luck that you never saw that program - otherwise it would imply that
you are from this antisemitic circle. Yep, I quite believe that you may not
heard about antisemitism on VMK, even being a student. But if you wanted to
know that time - it would be quite simple for you. But on mehmat the
situation was even much worse than on VMK. And if you would have speak with
your Jewish friends not about sexual discrimination and other related
problems but about national discrimination you would have heard about it.
> Ch'ya by korova mychala... (sorry can't resist). First, NEVER talk
> about things you know only by rumors, and only then you'll have right
> to demand it from others.
I know this things NOT BY RUMORS but from my numerous friends, both Jews
and not Jews who were or were not admitted to this ``colibel' nauki.'' And
as you can see your studying on VMK doesn't let you know more about this
discrimination. It's not necessary to study somewhere to know rules in this
place. By the way, I graduated from PhysTech where this problem was also
quite serious (but not so serious as on mathematical depts of MSU). As I
already recommended to Sergei, just read the posting with statistics. Being
in summer ``druzhina'' at MFTI on my third year I occasionly saw the
analogous statistics for my institute - it was surprisingly close to the
data which was just posted. So I may confirm that these figures are not
arbitrary.
Cheers,
Greg
Vadim Antonov
>>[Jew-killing program]
>Don't be naive! Of course I meant not this computer program.
You're stupid or what? How do you think, Logunov or Sadovnichiy wrote
that fabulous program? I was hacking at the University for seven years
and SURELY know everybody who could chain more than 100 instuctions
in sequence (not so much people, unfortunately). I'd say people often tend
to attribute their lack of abilities (or laziness) to "circumstances".
Yes, it's not easy to get admitted to Moscow U -- and there is a lot
of examinators who diskile smarto kids with enormus self-esteem. I know
this kind of discrimination because i got a "grob" myself, and got
a "marginal" sum (plus i'm not a Moscovite). That assistant explained
the matter to me... later.
I do not consider it a glory to cry about the world's cruelty and
discrimination angainst beloved self. There is enogh honest people
to support really talented students. And that buerocracy is not
invincible -- i got this knowledge having some less than pleasnt memories
about Moscow U and happy to get known many decent people there.
>And it's your
>own luck that you never saw that program - otherwise it would imply that
>you are from this antisemitic circle. Yep, I quite believe that you may not
>heard about antisemitism on VMK, even being a student.
I already was accused of being an anisemite, thanks. I simply dislike
nationalists despite of their ethnic origin. And surely, knowing the
matters from my own experience (not by somebody's words) i'm sure i know
this better than you.
>But if you wanted to
>know that time - it would be quite simple for you.
I wanted and knew. Sorry to disappoint you, but my observations conflict
with your words.
>But on mehmat the
>situation was even much worse than on VMK.
That's why my friend (a Jew) choosed meh-mat being afraid of
antisemitism on VMK. Rumors really otgrew the real causes.
BTW, i often was told that there were "official" rules about keeping
Jews out of PhisTekh (and your own life proves right opposite).
I'm picking facts, not speculations.
>It's not necessary to study somewhere to know rules in this place.
Thank you for explanation. "I never read that book but i know these
writings have no place in our socialist society". I do not worry do
you trust me or not -- i simply say what i witnessed.
>Being
>in summer ``druzhina'' at MFTI on my third year I occasionly saw the
>analogous statistics for my institute - it was surprisingly close to the
>data which was just posted. So I may confirm that these figures are not
>arbitrary.
Hm, following your logic i have to conclude that you're a KGB agent
(if such data exists they're secret, aren't they? Otherwise they
whould be published in all Western newspapers immediately). No Way.
University staff was simply unable to process those records --
keeping track of exams marks was quite a job alone. I don't know if
KGB (or anybody else) processed applicant's records later to gather such
statistic and it's origin is unclear. Could you provide information
about where it came from (at any rate it is SAFE now for the person who
supposedly leaked it). Being in druzhina is not a plus to you either.
If i had experience of serving that buerocracy i'd be ashamed to publish it.
(Can't stand those pioneer games, it's my personal feeling, sorry).
I guess you never saw the numbers of applicants, only the ethnical
distribution of *students* -- these data never was a secret; though
they never were glued on lightpoles. In this case these figures
proves right opposite (considering the ethnic distribution of the
general population). Every lie contains a good part of truth, after
all.
Vadim Antonov
Gregory Landsberg
> In article <1992Apr29.0...@dxcern.cern.ch> G...@fnal.fnal.gov (Gregory Landsberg) writes:
> >>[Jew-killing program]
>
> >Don't be naive! Of course I meant not this computer program.
>
> You're stupid or what? How do you think, Logunov or Sadovnichiy wrote
~~~~~~
> that fabulous program? I was hacking at the University for seven years
> and SURELY know everybody who could chain more than 100 instuctions
> in sequence (not so much people, unfortunately).
Well, I don't like your style of reply, but I know that's a usual style of
peoples impacted by the system. O.K., I'm not intend to teach you good form
rules. Of course such a program exists not in MSU. I meant the database
which was checked for each applicant to trace his origin. You may easily
think out WHERE this database was (is ?) LOCATED. To hack all over MSU net
doesn't mean to communicate with humans. I don't know HOW EXACTLY they do
it (phone call, computer task or whatever). I KNOW that even people with
``clean'' item 5 both for themselves and their parents were marked as Jews
if their grandparents have Jewish blood. You may believe or not believe in
it - it's your own problem. I just tell what I know.
> I do not consider it a glory to cry about the world's cruelty and
> discrimination angainst beloved self. There is enogh honest people
> to support really talented students. And that buerocracy is not
> invincible -- i got this knowledge having some less than pleasnt memories
> about Moscow U and happy to get known many decent people there.
Yes, there are. That's why I and some of my Jewish friends were able to
graduate from Phystech, mehmat etc. And nobody cries about ``world's
cruelty and discrimination against beloved self.'' We are discussing the
painful problem of antisemitism in USSR of seventieth and early eighties.
> >And it's your
> >own luck that you never saw that program - otherwise it would imply that
> >you are from this antisemitic circle. Yep, I quite believe that you may not
> >heard about antisemitism on VMK, even being a student.
>
> I already was accused of being an anisemite, thanks. I simply dislike
> nationalists despite of their ethnic origin. And surely, knowing the
> matters from my own experience (not by somebody's words) i'm sure i know
> this better than you.
and:
> >It's not necessary to study somewhere to know rules in this place.
>
> Thank you for explanation. "I never read that book but i know these
> writings have no place in our socialist society". I do not worry do
> you trust me or not -- i simply say what i witnessed.
O.K., you may be sure. And you may don't care. I don't understand why do
you post your opinion if you even don't care DO your reader trust you or
not, but this is up to you again. I just want to mention that your argument
that you were a student on VMK (by the way, WHEN did you enter VMK?) and
thus you know the situation better than I is not very fair. In principle I
could easily reply you that you are not Jew, so you don't know the
situation with Jews. But I don't do that because it is an unfair argument.
Exactly as your own.
> >But if you wanted to
> >know that time - it would be quite simple for you.
>
> I wanted and knew. Sorry to disappoint you, but my observations conflict
> with your words.
You didn't disappoint me. As I told you, I'm quite sure that there are a
lot of of HONEST people who just didn't know about it or didn't want to
know. That's why we discuss these things.
>
> >But on mehmat the
> >situation was even much worse than on VMK.
>
> That's why my friend (a Jew) choosed meh-mat being afraid of
> antisemitism on VMK. Rumors really otgrew the real causes.
> BTW, i often was told that there were "official" rules about keeping
> Jews out of PhisTekh (and your own life proves right opposite).
> I'm picking facts, not speculations.
As I just told you ``mir ne bez dobrih ludey'' and as you could have seen
from the other postings, Jews were admitted, just the competition rate for
them was different. May be and even perhaps it was different for other
nationalities or there was sexual discrimination. But this is another
topic. If you are interested - just post your opinion - we may discuss it
also.
> >Being
> >in summer ``druzhina'' at MFTI on my third year I occasionly saw the
> >analogous statistics for my institute - it was surprisingly close to the
> >data which was just posted. So I may confirm that these figures are not
> >arbitrary.
>
> Hm, following your logic i have to conclude that you're a KGB agent
> (if such data exists they're secret, aren't they? Otherwise they
> whould be published in all Western newspapers immediately). No Way.
> University staff was simply unable to process those records --
> keeping track of exams marks was quite a job alone. I don't know if
> KGB (or anybody else) processed applicant's records later to gather such
> statistic and it's origin is unclear. Could you provide information
> about where it came from (at any rate it is SAFE now for the person who
> supposedly leaked it).
It's not a secret. The students in admitting commission had to obtain some
statistics on the social origins of applicants, there nationalities, the
places where they were born and some other staff. A friend of mine just
calculated Jews (i.e. the people who wrote in the anket that they are Jews)
separately (normally they and other small nationalities are calculated by
the name ``others'' and alltogether). Then he repeated his calculations for
the files of admitted people. And if you think that these facts were not
know to West and that they were not published here, you are completely
wrong - just read some old western newspapers and you'd see.
> Being in druzhina is not a plus to you either.
> If i had experience of serving that buerocracy i'd be ashamed to publish it.
> (Can't stand those pioneer games, it's my personal feeling, sorry).
And this argument is also just unfair. You know very well that it was
impossible to be a loyal member of the Soviet society without obeying the
rules. You want to say that you are ``clean?'' That you was not a Comsomol
member, that you didn't attend the meetings? It's funny, not to say more
straightly! Yes I was not a dissident, but only a dissident may claim me
about it. And not you, my dear.
By the way, ``druzhina'' has nothing to do with the ``serving that
buerocracy'' (correct spelling is BUREAUCRACY) - it's just a routine work
to check the exam cards (the ID cards which are distributed to each
applicant), prevent penetration of applicants parents etc. This is the note
for foreign readers who don't know soviet rules.
> Vadim Antonov
And if you want to continue this argument, please restrict yourself in the
frame of good forms. I didn't offend you anyhow and I wait the same from
you if you want to DISCUSS and not to BAZARIT' - otherwise I have no time
for this, sorry.
Cheers,
Greg