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Re: fantastic negative result
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Byker
Mar 10, 2014, 9:50:38 PM3/10/14
to
"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
news:lgpsh9p9385m0gg0p...@4ax.com...
>
> We want those videos of "democracy-loving"
> Ukranians and their new coup government
> praising the EU and USA. Great propaganda.
>
> However I don't think Putin really cares very much
> about the rest of Ukraine ... he wants what was
> traditionally Russias - and all those ports and
> air-bases. Those are where the real money and
> power come from. Ukraine will have to negotiate
> access and pay usage fees and Russia gets its
> strategic warm-water ports.
If Putin decides to rattle sabers with NATO, all Turkey has to do is close
the Bosphorus and the Black Sea fleet will become ships in a bottle.
news:lgpsh9p9385m0gg0p...@4ax.com...
>
> We want those videos of "democracy-loving"
> Ukranians and their new coup government
> praising the EU and USA. Great propaganda.
>
> However I don't think Putin really cares very much
> about the rest of Ukraine ... he wants what was
> traditionally Russias - and all those ports and
> air-bases. Those are where the real money and
> power come from. Ukraine will have to negotiate
> access and pay usage fees and Russia gets its
> strategic warm-water ports.
If Putin decides to rattle sabers with NATO, all Turkey has to do is close
the Bosphorus and the Black Sea fleet will become ships in a bottle.
Michael Swift
Mar 11, 2014, 7:35:58 AM3/11/14
to
In article <lflmmh$fgi$1...@os.motzarella.org>, Oleg Smirnov <ve...@gde.ru>
writes
>>> Political prisoners begin to appear in Ukraine as well,
>>> by now at least two figures of civil activism were
>>> captured and imprisoned without coherent charges.
>>
>> A bit like the Russian Federation then, Pussy Riot anyone.
>
>Those were about hooliganism but not politics.
Yeh, right.
Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
writes
>>> Political prisoners begin to appear in Ukraine as well,
>>> by now at least two figures of civil activism were
>>> captured and imprisoned without coherent charges.
>>
>> A bit like the Russian Federation then, Pussy Riot anyone.
>
>Those were about hooliganism but not politics.
Yeh, right.
Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
Michael Swift
Mar 11, 2014, 7:40:30 AM3/11/14
to
In article <lfln50$hv5$1...@os.motzarella.org>, Oleg Smirnov <ve...@gde.ru>
writes
>> Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is forcibly
>
>They want referendum.
>
Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep voting until they get
the correct result, if past Russian voting methods are followed there
will be a 105% yes vote.
>That's not forcibly.
No, it's corrupt.
writes
>> Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is forcibly
>
>They want referendum.
>
Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep voting until they get
the correct result, if past Russian voting methods are followed there
will be a 105% yes vote.
>That's not forcibly.
No, it's corrupt.
Michael Swift
Mar 11, 2014, 7:38:12 AM3/11/14
to
In article <4oidnSwWxOcWwIPO...@earthlink.com>, Byker
<byker@do~rag.net> writes
>Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is forcibly absorbed into
>Russia, it will drive the rest of Ukraine right into the arms of Europe,
>something that Putin just wouldn't stand for. Ukraine could become
>another Afghanistan, only without the suicide bombers (which could
>change should the Tatars get involved).
My brother in law was Ukrainian, he hated Russians, I used to go to
Rochdale Ukraine Club with him and he wasn't alone.
<byker@do~rag.net> writes
>Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is forcibly absorbed into
>Russia, it will drive the rest of Ukraine right into the arms of Europe,
>something that Putin just wouldn't stand for. Ukraine could become
>another Afghanistan, only without the suicide bombers (which could
>change should the Tatars get involved).
My brother in law was Ukrainian, he hated Russians, I used to go to
Rochdale Ukraine Club with him and he wasn't alone.
Mr. B1ack
Mar 11, 2014, 8:02:10 AM3/11/14
to
Ukraine (nor anything) is worth that.
19th-century military thinking works OK if your
foes are 2nd/3rd-world ... but 1st-world countries
just can't take each other on directly anymore
and that's that. Find alternatives and compromises
whether you like 'em or not.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 11, 2014, 8:50:40 AM3/11/14
to
>> After 'opposition leaders' and Yanukovich agreed with
>> anti-crisis plan and he signed the agreement 'warranted'
>> by those three foreign ministers and ordered police to
>> leave the streets of Kiev, the leaders of the militants
>> unambiguously refused to recognize the agreement.
>> Next day the militants seized all presidential and
>> parliament buildings, proclaimed their victory and the
>> new order. With that, those MPs who supported Yanukovich
>> before this 'victory', were harshly harassed and
>> threatened. Some of MPs were beaten, the revolutionary
>> militants came to MPs' at home and threatened their
>> family members, it's known that (detached) house of at
>> least one of the MPs was set on fire. That's how the
>> obedience of the MPs for the new order was provided.
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8>
>
> 3:40 "Enormous pressure against the members of parliament."
>
> Estonian Foreign Minister confirms my point here.
Pyatt the wriggling.
<http://echo.msk.ru/programs/beseda/1275484-echo/>
Russian journalist (the anti-Putin opposition media, btw) is
interviewing Geoffrey R. Pyatt, the US Ambassador to Ukraine.
The question is, when exactly, according to official American
position, Yanukovich has lost his legitimacy? Mr Pyatt speaks
many pompous words about incredible horrors of Yanukovich
regime but still doesn't answer the question. Journalist says
there are many countries where some very similar incredible
horrors happen but still nobody doubts the presidents there
are legitimate. Mr Pyatt responds that Yanukovich lost his
legitimacy when he fled. Journalist says it's not convincing,
for example, there was similar precedent in the history with
Charles de Gaulle <http://is.gd/ugWA3I> who also ran away
from the angry protesters, but the US did not questioned his
legitimacy. Pyatt responds pathetically: but what I am saying
reflects the will of the Ukrainian people!
One more time who are you to speak for 'the people'. What the
bold hypocrisy actually leads to is, the American politicians
as well as their most obedient European poodles're losing any
moral ground. Even more dangerous, if they started to believe
in that virtual reality produced by their own propaganda.
>> anti-crisis plan and he signed the agreement 'warranted'
>> by those three foreign ministers and ordered police to
>> leave the streets of Kiev, the leaders of the militants
>> unambiguously refused to recognize the agreement.
>> Next day the militants seized all presidential and
>> parliament buildings, proclaimed their victory and the
>> new order. With that, those MPs who supported Yanukovich
>> before this 'victory', were harshly harassed and
>> threatened. Some of MPs were beaten, the revolutionary
>> militants came to MPs' at home and threatened their
>> family members, it's known that (detached) house of at
>> least one of the MPs was set on fire. That's how the
>> obedience of the MPs for the new order was provided.
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8>
>
> 3:40 "Enormous pressure against the members of parliament."
>
> Estonian Foreign Minister confirms my point here.
Pyatt the wriggling.
<http://echo.msk.ru/programs/beseda/1275484-echo/>
Russian journalist (the anti-Putin opposition media, btw) is
interviewing Geoffrey R. Pyatt, the US Ambassador to Ukraine.
The question is, when exactly, according to official American
position, Yanukovich has lost his legitimacy? Mr Pyatt speaks
many pompous words about incredible horrors of Yanukovich
regime but still doesn't answer the question. Journalist says
there are many countries where some very similar incredible
horrors happen but still nobody doubts the presidents there
are legitimate. Mr Pyatt responds that Yanukovich lost his
legitimacy when he fled. Journalist says it's not convincing,
for example, there was similar precedent in the history with
Charles de Gaulle <http://is.gd/ugWA3I> who also ran away
from the angry protesters, but the US did not questioned his
legitimacy. Pyatt responds pathetically: but what I am saying
reflects the will of the Ukrainian people!
One more time who are you to speak for 'the people'. What the
bold hypocrisy actually leads to is, the American politicians
as well as their most obedient European poodles're losing any
moral ground. Even more dangerous, if they started to believe
in that virtual reality produced by their own propaganda.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 11, 2014, 9:05:20 AM3/11/14
to
Michael Swift, <news:Xtz5bgAuYvHTFw$A...@ntlworld.com>
doesn't like very much what is going on in Kiev, they
are afraid of the new regime, and want back at home.
>> That's not forcibly.
>
> No, it's corrupt.
You are biased.
>>> Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is forcibly
>>
>> They want referendum.
>>
> Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep voting
> until they get the correct result, if past Russian voting
> methods are followed there will be a 105% yes vote.
But it seems the majority of the people in Crimea
>>
>> They want referendum.
>>
> Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep voting
> until they get the correct result, if past Russian voting
> methods are followed there will be a 105% yes vote.
doesn't like very much what is going on in Kiev, they
are afraid of the new regime, and want back at home.
>> That's not forcibly.
>
> No, it's corrupt.
Max Demian
Mar 11, 2014, 10:00:48 AM3/11/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote in message
news:lfn1qk$ce3$1...@os.motzarella.org...
That's the Scottish method, where you only ask the people in the region that
wants to change its master.
Independent Yorkshire anyone?
--
Max Demian
news:lfn1qk$ce3$1...@os.motzarella.org...
wants to change its master.
Independent Yorkshire anyone?
--
Max Demian
Max Demian
Mar 11, 2014, 10:02:35 AM3/11/14
to
"Byker" <byker@do~rag.net> wrote in message
news:4oidnSwWxOcWwIPO...@earthlink.com...
>> Meanwhile, campaign of intimidation is unfolding in Ukraine against those
>> who don't feel themselves happy enough with the west-Ukrainian
>> nationalism.
>>
>> Here is an educational video made by the nationalists.
>> It shows what kind of treatment those in Ukraine who are friendly to
>> Russia or Russian language should expect if they deny to admire the new
>> order. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VivY94Cp0s0>
--
Max Demian
news:4oidnSwWxOcWwIPO...@earthlink.com...
> "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote in message
> news:lfli5r$iqr$1...@os.motzarella.org...
>> Meanwhile, campaign of intimidation is unfolding in Ukraine against those
>> who don't feel themselves happy enough with the west-Ukrainian
>> nationalism.
>>
>> Here is an educational video made by the nationalists.
>> It shows what kind of treatment those in Ukraine who are friendly to
>> Russia or Russian language should expect if they deny to admire the new
>> order. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VivY94Cp0s0>
>>
>> Political prisoners begin to appear in Ukraine as well, by now at least
>> two figures of civil activism were captured and imprisoned without
>> coherent charges.
>
>> Political prisoners begin to appear in Ukraine as well, by now at least
>> two figures of civil activism were captured and imprisoned without
>> coherent charges.
>
> Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is forcibly absorbed into
> Russia, it will drive the rest of Ukraine right into the arms of Europe,
> something that Putin just wouldn't stand for. Ukraine could become
> another
> Afghanistan, only without the suicide bombers (which could change should
> the
> Tatars get involved).
Ukraine isn't a barren mountainous country with no economic prospects.
> Russia, it will drive the rest of Ukraine right into the arms of Europe,
> something that Putin just wouldn't stand for. Ukraine could become
> another
> Afghanistan, only without the suicide bombers (which could change should
> the
> Tatars get involved).
--
Max Demian
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 11, 2014, 11:21:00 AM3/11/14
to
Max Demian, <news:bo8j8g...@mid.individual.net>
violence in Kiev that destroyed democratic legitimacy
of central authority.
> "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote in message
>> Michael Swift, <news:Xtz5bgAuYvHTFw$A...@ntlworld.com>
>>> In article <lfln50$hv5$1...@os.motzarella.org>, Oleg
>>> Smirnov
>>
>>>>> Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is
>>>>> forcibly
>>>>
>>>> They want referendum.
>>>>
>>> Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep voting
>>> until they get the correct result, if past Russian
>>> voting methods are followed there will be a 105% yes
>>> vote.
>>
>> But it seems the majority of the people in Crimea
>> doesn't like very much what is going on in Kiev, they
>> are afraid of the new regime, and want back at home.
>
> That's the Scottish method, where you only ask the people
> in the region that wants to change its master.
All would be different if there was no militant
>>> In article <lfln50$hv5$1...@os.motzarella.org>, Oleg
>>> Smirnov
>>
>>>>> Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is
>>>>> forcibly
>>>>
>>>> They want referendum.
>>>>
>>> Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep voting
>>> until they get the correct result, if past Russian
>>> voting methods are followed there will be a 105% yes
>>> vote.
>>
>> But it seems the majority of the people in Crimea
>> doesn't like very much what is going on in Kiev, they
>> are afraid of the new regime, and want back at home.
>
> That's the Scottish method, where you only ask the people
> in the region that wants to change its master.
violence in Kiev that destroyed democratic legitimacy
of central authority.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 11, 2014, 11:19:31 AM3/11/14
to
<http://nrada.gov.ua/ua/news/radanews/22015.html> original source
National Council of Ukraine on Television and Radio Broadcasting
demands from national telecoms to ban Russian TV channels in their
networks urgently (no later than today's evening).
Some of large providers in Ukraine have already banned Russian TV.
National Council of Ukraine on Television and Radio Broadcasting
demands from national telecoms to ban Russian TV channels in their
networks urgently (no later than today's evening).
Some of large providers in Ukraine have already banned Russian TV.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 11, 2014, 11:23:31 AM3/11/14
to
Oleg Smirnov, <news:lfn1qk$ce3$1...@os.motzarella.org>
> Michael Swift, <news:Xtz5bgAuYvHTFw$A...@ntlworld.com>
>>>> Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is
>>>> forcibly
>>>
>>> They want referendum.
>>>
>> Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep voting
>> until they get the correct result, if past Russian voting
>> methods are followed there will be a 105% yes vote.
>
> But it seems the majority of the people in Crimea
> doesn't like very much what is going on in Kiev, they
> are afraid of the new regime, and want back at home.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fKIq8fE1CE>
Why'd someone be afraid of democracy like this, really.
>>> That's not forcibly.
> Michael Swift, <news:Xtz5bgAuYvHTFw$A...@ntlworld.com>
>>>> Somehow I get the feeling that if the Crimea is
>>>> forcibly
>>>
>>> They want referendum.
>>>
>> Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep voting
>> until they get the correct result, if past Russian voting
>> methods are followed there will be a 105% yes vote.
>
> But it seems the majority of the people in Crimea
> doesn't like very much what is going on in Kiev, they
> are afraid of the new regime, and want back at home.
Why'd someone be afraid of democracy like this, really.
>>> That's not forcibly.
Michael Swift
Mar 11, 2014, 1:13:45 PM3/11/14
to
In article <bo8j8g...@mid.individual.net>, Max Demian
<max_d...@bigfoot.com> writes
originally stretched from the Humber to the Firth of Forth.
<max_d...@bigfoot.com> writes
> But it seems the majority of the people in Crimea doesn't like very much
>> what is going on in Kiev, they are afraid of the new regime, and want back
>> at home.
>
>That's the Scottish method, where you only ask the people in the region that
>wants to change its master.
>
>Independent Yorkshire anyone?
Best idea of the week, or failing that a New Northumbria which
>> what is going on in Kiev, they are afraid of the new regime, and want back
>> at home.
>
>That's the Scottish method, where you only ask the people in the region that
>wants to change its master.
>
>Independent Yorkshire anyone?
originally stretched from the Humber to the Firth of Forth.
Barry Bruyea
Mar 11, 2014, 3:09:02 PM3/11/14
to
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:19:31 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
And Crimea has banned Ukrainian T.V.
>
>---
>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
>http://www.avast.com
wrote:
>
>---
>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
>http://www.avast.com
Byker
Mar 11, 2014, 3:22:02 PM3/11/14
to
"Max Demian" <max_d...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:bo8jbr...@mid.individual.net...
million in the 1930's, etc.) the desire to "get even" with the Kremlin is
still very much alive in the hearts of the Ukrainians. It doesn't take much
imagination to one day turn on CNN and see Russians getting blown up with
IEDs, helicopters and jets being brought down by shoulder-fired SAMs, and
sniper bullets from nowhere picking off troops one by one.
news:bo8jbr...@mid.individual.net...
>
> Ukraine isn't a barren mountainous country with no economic prospects.
True. But after enduring Stalin's terror (the forced famine that killed six
> Ukraine isn't a barren mountainous country with no economic prospects.
million in the 1930's, etc.) the desire to "get even" with the Kremlin is
still very much alive in the hearts of the Ukrainians. It doesn't take much
imagination to one day turn on CNN and see Russians getting blown up with
IEDs, helicopters and jets being brought down by shoulder-fired SAMs, and
sniper bullets from nowhere picking off troops one by one.
Byker
Mar 11, 2014, 4:52:27 PM3/11/14
to
"Michael Swift" <mike....@yeton.co.uk> wrote in message
news:UNB5zUAk...@ntlworld.com...
general forced collectivization was mentioned in history books, there was no
"spotlight" on Josef Stalin creating a man-made famine to force Ukrainian
peasants into surrendering their land. It took Hitler six years to kill 6
million Jews. It took Stalin six MONTHS to kill 6 million Ukrainians. At
the height of the famine 25,000 people a day were dying of starvation.
You'd find a few sentences about it in one book, a few paragraphs in
another. Not until 1987 was there a full-length book available in English
regarding the Great Famine, Robert Conquest's "The Harvest of Sorrow."
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Harvest_of_Sorrow.html?id=Bp31GmfH-6YC
In 1984 "The Harvest of Despair," a one-hour documentary about the famine,
was produced by the Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Centre in
Toronto, Canada. All three American networks -- ABC, CBS, and NBC --
refused to air it. An outraged William F. Buckley made arrangements with
PBS to show it, and it finally aired in April, 1986, with a half-hour
discussion afterwards with Buckley, Hedrick Smith (a NY Times correspondent
who spent many years in Soviet Russia), and Malcolm Muggeridge (then a young
reporter who was deported when he tried to report the truth about Stalin's
collectivization). To the best of my knowledge, it was never rerun. Thanks
to YouTube you can still see it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afVdnbMd6gA
news:UNB5zUAk...@ntlworld.com...
>
> My brother in law was Ukrainian, he hated Russians, I used to go to
> Rochdale Ukraine Club with him and he wasn't alone.
Many Americans are unaware of the Ukrainian famine of 1932-33. While
> My brother in law was Ukrainian, he hated Russians, I used to go to
> Rochdale Ukraine Club with him and he wasn't alone.
general forced collectivization was mentioned in history books, there was no
"spotlight" on Josef Stalin creating a man-made famine to force Ukrainian
peasants into surrendering their land. It took Hitler six years to kill 6
million Jews. It took Stalin six MONTHS to kill 6 million Ukrainians. At
the height of the famine 25,000 people a day were dying of starvation.
You'd find a few sentences about it in one book, a few paragraphs in
another. Not until 1987 was there a full-length book available in English
regarding the Great Famine, Robert Conquest's "The Harvest of Sorrow."
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Harvest_of_Sorrow.html?id=Bp31GmfH-6YC
In 1984 "The Harvest of Despair," a one-hour documentary about the famine,
was produced by the Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Centre in
Toronto, Canada. All three American networks -- ABC, CBS, and NBC --
refused to air it. An outraged William F. Buckley made arrangements with
PBS to show it, and it finally aired in April, 1986, with a half-hour
discussion afterwards with Buckley, Hedrick Smith (a NY Times correspondent
who spent many years in Soviet Russia), and Malcolm Muggeridge (then a young
reporter who was deported when he tried to report the truth about Stalin's
collectivization). To the best of my knowledge, it was never rerun. Thanks
to YouTube you can still see it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afVdnbMd6gA
Byker
Mar 11, 2014, 7:01:33 PM3/11/14
to
"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
news:miuth91re379o4hl3...@4ax.com...
>
> Um ... no. That's how to end the world - and
> Ukraine (nor anything) is worth that.
As if the Russians would really nuke Istanbul over the Bosphorus. I would
> Um ... no. That's how to end the world - and
> Ukraine (nor anything) is worth that.
consider it a revolutionary act if a third party scuttled a few junk ships
in the straits like the Russians did with the Crimean harbors
Mr. B1ack
Mar 11, 2014, 9:40:31 PM3/11/14
to
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:23:31 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
A nasty side-effect of any kind of "democracy" is
something called "the tyranny of the majority" ...
and that majority may decree things that are
absolutely unacceptable to a minority - even if
it's a rather large minority. This is how civil
wars get started.
Wise leaders can often negotiate compromises
and exceptions ... but truely wise leaders are few
and far between. Most wind up being oppressors
instead, forcing minority compliance sometimes
even at gunpoint. This is how really really BAD
civil wars get started.
The USA was among the first to try a "fix" in the
form of a "bill of rights" ... picking subjects known
to be the most common sources of civil wars and
guarenteeing there were lines not even the majority
could cross. This has worked with varying success,
lawyers and sharp politicians can often find ways
to skirt around "rights" when it serves them ... more
and more lately it seems ............
The other "fix" is representative 'democracy', a
republic, where a leadership is imposed between
popular will (or whim) and the apparatus of law
and power. This is where your "wise leaders"
are supposed to sit. Again, few are "wise".
Republics and enumerated 'rights' seem to DELAY
the worst of the problems of more 'pure' democracies
but not prevent them. Representatives are also more
convenient to bribe than entire populations, which
increases corruption.
Theocracy promises an absolute authority which
no man may question - the problem being that the
"will of god" is liberally interpreted by a power elite
to serve quite human wants and whims.
Frankly, there seems to be roughly seven billion
opinions as to "the way things ought to be" ... and
tomorrow x-percent of those opinions will have
changed somewhat. This means there IS NO
"perfect" or even "nearly perfect" form of government
or legal code. Any system will wind up oppressing
*somebody* and all real-world systems suffer from
entropy ... becoming more and more corrupt, mis-run
and centered on the power elite over time.
So, I'd say we're destined for an eternity of civil
wars and revolutions - small and large. Each will
make some people happier and some people
more angry and then it starts again.
wrote:
something called "the tyranny of the majority" ...
and that majority may decree things that are
absolutely unacceptable to a minority - even if
it's a rather large minority. This is how civil
wars get started.
Wise leaders can often negotiate compromises
and exceptions ... but truely wise leaders are few
and far between. Most wind up being oppressors
instead, forcing minority compliance sometimes
even at gunpoint. This is how really really BAD
civil wars get started.
The USA was among the first to try a "fix" in the
form of a "bill of rights" ... picking subjects known
to be the most common sources of civil wars and
guarenteeing there were lines not even the majority
could cross. This has worked with varying success,
lawyers and sharp politicians can often find ways
to skirt around "rights" when it serves them ... more
and more lately it seems ............
The other "fix" is representative 'democracy', a
republic, where a leadership is imposed between
popular will (or whim) and the apparatus of law
and power. This is where your "wise leaders"
are supposed to sit. Again, few are "wise".
Republics and enumerated 'rights' seem to DELAY
the worst of the problems of more 'pure' democracies
but not prevent them. Representatives are also more
convenient to bribe than entire populations, which
increases corruption.
Theocracy promises an absolute authority which
no man may question - the problem being that the
"will of god" is liberally interpreted by a power elite
to serve quite human wants and whims.
Frankly, there seems to be roughly seven billion
opinions as to "the way things ought to be" ... and
tomorrow x-percent of those opinions will have
changed somewhat. This means there IS NO
"perfect" or even "nearly perfect" form of government
or legal code. Any system will wind up oppressing
*somebody* and all real-world systems suffer from
entropy ... becoming more and more corrupt, mis-run
and centered on the power elite over time.
So, I'd say we're destined for an eternity of civil
wars and revolutions - small and large. Each will
make some people happier and some people
more angry and then it starts again.
Bob
Mar 12, 2014, 8:17:24 AM3/12/14
to
Mr. B1ack
Mar 12, 2014, 10:47:38 AM3/12/14
to
On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 18:01:33 -0500, "Byker" <byker@do~rag.net> wrote:
>"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
>news:miuth91re379o4hl3...@4ax.com...
>>
>> Um ... no. That's how to end the world - and
>> Ukraine (nor anything) is worth that.
>
>As if the Russians would really nuke Istanbul over the Bosphorus.
Nuke ? No, not immediately anyhow. Instead they'd send
>"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
>news:miuth91re379o4hl3...@4ax.com...
>>
>> Um ... no. That's how to end the world - and
>> Ukraine (nor anything) is worth that.
>
>As if the Russians would really nuke Istanbul over the Bosphorus.
forces to occupy the straights and install fortifications and
anti-aircraft and anti-sub defenses. It really *is* in their "vital
national interests" to keep the straights open, much more
than Iraq and Afghanistan were in *our" vital national interests,
so Russia definitely would act.
But then Turkey and NATO just couldn't *stand* a Russian
occupation there ... so what follows next, and next, and next ?
Eventually somebody gets boxed-in or fed up to
the point of being nutso ... and the global meltdown
commences.
Avoid global melt-down. Don't throw away a billion
years of hard-won evolution ... we might never get
past the slime-mold stage next time.
Byker
Mar 12, 2014, 2:27:08 PM3/12/14
to
"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
news:nmr0i9hsvul5538af...@4ax.com...
>
> Eventually somebody gets boxed-in or fed up to
> the point of being nutso ... and the global meltdown
> commences.
Let's see how Putin reacts when he realizes his ego has gotten the best of
> Eventually somebody gets boxed-in or fed up to
> the point of being nutso ... and the global meltdown
> commences.
him
Mr. B1ack
Mar 12, 2014, 3:13:57 PM3/12/14
to
the Crimea thing is a result of ego. Those
warm-water ports really are a Russian "vital
national interest". Russia HAS to make sure
they're secure against the anti-Russian coup
govt in Kiev.
Or do you think "vital national interests" apply
ONLY to the USA and friends ... ?
Byker
Mar 12, 2014, 4:31:30 PM3/12/14
to
"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
news:e4c1i9tilolb985oo...@4ax.com...
> While he definitely HAS an ego, I don't think
> the Crimea thing is a result of ego. Those
> warm-water ports really are a Russian "vital
> national interest". Russia HAS to make sure
> they're secure against the anti-Russian coup
> govt in Kiev.
Traditional Russian rulers, whether Czars or Commissars, have to demonstrate
> the Crimea thing is a result of ego. Those
> warm-water ports really are a Russian "vital
> national interest". Russia HAS to make sure
> they're secure against the anti-Russian coup
> govt in Kiev.
their "strong leadership" capabilites by invading nearby countries, crushing
peasant revolts, etc. The Russian people just wouldn't respect a leader who
was afraid to rule with an iron fist. You'd think that Putin have already
proven that in the Chechen Wars.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 12, 2014, 4:39:42 PM3/12/14
to
Mr. B1ack, <news:eidvh9p3sc9l7g12i...@4ax.com>
The guys with bats and with the hammer aren't 'the majority'.
It's obvious that the democracy can not work just
as a tyranny of the majority. For example, 50% + 1
of voters can unite, and adopt a law that the rest
50% - 1 must work twice more and pay triple taxes.
Such a democracy would indeed look not very fair.
I think it's understandable that democracy (in its
most general sense) may work if and only if there's
common understanding in the society that 'we need
a peaceful solution', - otherwise 'the whole system
will be destroyed', and it will bring no good for
all. This implies a necessity of some 'compensatory
mechanisms' for those who disagree, and that's what
you are talking about. But even more important,
taking into account the above hypothetical example,
it doesn't work without the 'ethics' and 'morals'.
But what we have in the case of the violent coups
is not a commitment to peaceful solution, the coups
raise the culture of coups, but not of democracy.
And such a situation when the militants are called
'peaceful protesters' is against sane morals. That
is why I think what has happened in Ukraine is not
good.
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:23:31 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> Oleg Smirnov, <news:lfn1qk$ce3$1...@os.motzarella.org>
>>> Michael Swift, <news:Xtz5bgAuYvHTFw$A...@ntlworld.com>
>>> Michael Swift, <news:Xtz5bgAuYvHTFw$A...@ntlworld.com>
>>>>> They want referendum.
>>>>>
>>>> Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep
>>>> voting until they get the correct result, if past
>>>> Russian voting methods are followed there will be a
>>>> 105% yes vote.
>>>
>>> But it seems the majority of the people in Crimea
>>> doesn't like very much what is going on in Kiev, they
>>> are afraid of the new regime, and want back at home.
>>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fKIq8fE1CE>
>>
>> Why'd someone be afraid of democracy like this, really.
>
> A nasty side-effect of any kind of "democracy" is
> something called "the tyranny of the majority" ...
How's it relevant to the above video?
>>>>>
>>>> Ha, that's the EU / Ireland type referendum, keep
>>>> voting until they get the correct result, if past
>>>> Russian voting methods are followed there will be a
>>>> 105% yes vote.
>>>
>>> But it seems the majority of the people in Crimea
>>> doesn't like very much what is going on in Kiev, they
>>> are afraid of the new regime, and want back at home.
>>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fKIq8fE1CE>
>>
>> Why'd someone be afraid of democracy like this, really.
>
> A nasty side-effect of any kind of "democracy" is
> something called "the tyranny of the majority" ...
The guys with bats and with the hammer aren't 'the majority'.
as a tyranny of the majority. For example, 50% + 1
of voters can unite, and adopt a law that the rest
50% - 1 must work twice more and pay triple taxes.
Such a democracy would indeed look not very fair.
I think it's understandable that democracy (in its
most general sense) may work if and only if there's
common understanding in the society that 'we need
a peaceful solution', - otherwise 'the whole system
will be destroyed', and it will bring no good for
all. This implies a necessity of some 'compensatory
mechanisms' for those who disagree, and that's what
you are talking about. But even more important,
taking into account the above hypothetical example,
it doesn't work without the 'ethics' and 'morals'.
But what we have in the case of the violent coups
is not a commitment to peaceful solution, the coups
raise the culture of coups, but not of democracy.
And such a situation when the militants are called
'peaceful protesters' is against sane morals. That
is why I think what has happened in Ukraine is not
good.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 12, 2014, 4:41:07 PM3/12/14
to
Byker, <news:z-GdnW5QIflkO73O...@earthlink.com>
>> Eventually somebody gets boxed-in or fed up to
>> the point of being nutso ... and the global meltdown
>> commences.
>
> Let's see how Putin reacts when he realizes his ego has
> gotten the best of him
There're many people living in Russia, not only Putin.
>> the point of being nutso ... and the global meltdown
>> commences.
>
> Let's see how Putin reacts when he realizes his ego has
> gotten the best of him
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 12, 2014, 4:41:46 PM3/12/14
to
<http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/21931181/crimea-vote-website-launched-with-russian-domain-name/>
.. referendum, which will ask Crimeans .. An opinion poll ..
said that 77 percent of the 1,300 people polled in Crimea this
week had said they would vote to become a part of the Russian
Federation. It said there was a 2.6 percent margin of error.
Eight percent said they would vote for greater autonomy, five
percent said they would not take part in the referendum and 10
percent said they were not sure how they would vote, it said.
.. referendum, which will ask Crimeans .. An opinion poll ..
said that 77 percent of the 1,300 people polled in Crimea this
week had said they would vote to become a part of the Russian
Federation. It said there was a 2.6 percent margin of error.
Eight percent said they would vote for greater autonomy, five
percent said they would not take part in the referendum and 10
percent said they were not sure how they would vote, it said.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 12, 2014, 4:42:34 PM3/12/14
to
Mr. B1ack, <news:e4c1i9tilolb985oo...@4ax.com>
military importance, the most important Russia's
ports (from where the Russian submarines can
approach, say, the American coasts) are in other
places.
Whether it would be the Putin's ego or the ports
it's not of the first relevance, the roots of the
situation are in humanitarian issues.
> On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 13:27:08 -0500, "Byker"
>>> Eventually somebody gets boxed-in or fed up to
>>> the point of being nutso ... and the global meltdown
>>> commences.
>>
>> Let's see how Putin reacts when he realizes his ego has
>> gotten the best of him
>
> While he definitely HAS an ego, I don't think
> the Crimea thing is a result of ego. Those
> warm-water ports really are a Russian "vital
> national interest". Russia HAS to make sure
> they're secure against the anti-Russian coup
> govt in Kiev.
>
> Or do you think "vital national interests" apply
> ONLY to the USA and friends ... ?
The 'warm-water ports' are still not of global
>>> the point of being nutso ... and the global meltdown
>>> commences.
>>
>> Let's see how Putin reacts when he realizes his ego has
>> gotten the best of him
>
> While he definitely HAS an ego, I don't think
> the Crimea thing is a result of ego. Those
> warm-water ports really are a Russian "vital
> national interest". Russia HAS to make sure
> they're secure against the anti-Russian coup
> govt in Kiev.
>
> Or do you think "vital national interests" apply
> ONLY to the USA and friends ... ?
military importance, the most important Russia's
ports (from where the Russian submarines can
approach, say, the American coasts) are in other
places.
Whether it would be the Putin's ego or the ports
it's not of the first relevance, the roots of the
situation are in humanitarian issues.
Mr. B1ack
Mar 12, 2014, 6:34:55 PM3/12/14
to
On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 00:42:34 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
I'd say the warm-water ports are "very handy"
for military/security needs - not anything you
would WANT to see slip into unfriendly hands.
The USA faced a similar threat from Manuel
Noreiga, who had taken power in Panama.
From his rhetoric, it seemed he wanted to
deny American military and commercial
vessels access. Although the Panama
canal was not irreplacable, it is "very
handy" - and the USA used military force
to secure the canal zone and take away
Noreiga.
Crimea also contains large numbers of
COMMERCIAL ports, which no doubt are
used for Russian imports and exports
all through the year. While you may be
able to slip submarines out under the
Baltic ice, trade vessels would be much
restricted. I'm not sure if Vladivostok in
the far east is open all year, but even if
it is there are not high-capacity rail lines
and roads for moving large volumes of
merchandise all the way to Moscow.
So, whether it's Putin or anyone else, there
would seem to be considerable motivation
to keep Crimean ports out of the hands of
anti-Russian agitators.
My guess ... Russia will not push further into
Ukraine, sticking with Crimea. It has some
historical claims, a population that is mostly
pro-Russian and then there's the "national
interests" argument. Putin will ignore any
demands that he abandon Crimea and
Russia has enough economic and political
influence to thwart almost any kind of
economic retaliation. So, consider it
fiat accompli ... Crimea is now Russia
and will stay that way.
wrote:
for military/security needs - not anything you
would WANT to see slip into unfriendly hands.
The USA faced a similar threat from Manuel
Noreiga, who had taken power in Panama.
From his rhetoric, it seemed he wanted to
deny American military and commercial
vessels access. Although the Panama
canal was not irreplacable, it is "very
handy" - and the USA used military force
to secure the canal zone and take away
Noreiga.
Crimea also contains large numbers of
COMMERCIAL ports, which no doubt are
used for Russian imports and exports
all through the year. While you may be
able to slip submarines out under the
Baltic ice, trade vessels would be much
restricted. I'm not sure if Vladivostok in
the far east is open all year, but even if
it is there are not high-capacity rail lines
and roads for moving large volumes of
merchandise all the way to Moscow.
So, whether it's Putin or anyone else, there
would seem to be considerable motivation
to keep Crimean ports out of the hands of
anti-Russian agitators.
My guess ... Russia will not push further into
Ukraine, sticking with Crimea. It has some
historical claims, a population that is mostly
pro-Russian and then there's the "national
interests" argument. Putin will ignore any
demands that he abandon Crimea and
Russia has enough economic and political
influence to thwart almost any kind of
economic retaliation. So, consider it
fiat accompli ... Crimea is now Russia
and will stay that way.
Mr. B1ack
Mar 12, 2014, 9:54:09 PM3/12/14
to
On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 00:39:42 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
>Mr. B1ack, <news:eidvh9p3sc9l7g12i...@4ax.com>
both themselves AND "the poor" ... and gets
away with it because his party has a (slim)
majority. A slightly wider majority can crush
all dissent, all hope for fairness.
>I think it's understandable that democracy (in its
>most general sense) may work if and only if there's
>common understanding in the society that 'we need
>a peaceful solution', - otherwise 'the whole system
>will be destroyed', and it will bring no good for
>all.
There USED to be something like that in the USA,
but not anymore. I think the mass media, TV news
especially, contributed to the current psychology
of intolerance and intractible stubborness - the
"MY way or HELL" mentality. TV news thrives on
"controversey" and extremes. Reason, tolerance,
moderation and compromise mean lower ratings,
they're "boring". So, over the years, TV news has
helped push people into corners instead of
helping them meet in the middle.
No kind of 'democracy' can last for long under such
circumstances. The "majority/popular will" alone
simply cannot be what solely determines public
policy. Wisdom and an understanding that people
and causes have to meet in the middle somewhere
is required ... the velvet glove rather than the iron
fist. The minory HAS to be respected, HAS to be
allowed to have some effect on public policy and
its own destiny.
But that's the America that WAS .... an enlightened
way of doing things that's rapidly fading away.
>This implies a necessity of some 'compensatory
>mechanisms' for those who disagree, and that's what
>you are talking about. But even more important,
>taking into account the above hypothetical example,
>it doesn't work without the 'ethics' and 'morals'.
But WHOSE .... religious extremists, ideological
extremists, which religion, which ideology ........
"morals" and "ethics" SOUND like they mean
something definite, but in reality they do not.
They mean whatever each individual thinks they
mean, and especially what individuals in POWER
think they mean (or WANT them to mean).
>But what we have in the case of the violent coups
>is not a commitment to peaceful solution, the coups
>raise the culture of coups, but not of democracy.
Coups rarely change things for the better. It IS
an extreme way of dealing with problems and
extremism promotes more extremism. A coup
is a power-grab, seizing control of the existing
system, but that system is rarely changed very
much. It's just that it's now a tool for the coup
leaders to exploit just like the previous leaders
exploited.
Revolutions have more chance of accomplishing
something because they involve a lot more people.
The existing system is usually destroyed or altered
significantly. Even thus, most revolutions don't
seem to significantly improve things - just a change
from one crappy system and crappy leaders to
another. Central/South America is nefarious in
this respect ... a long history of popular revolutions
and things are as crappy as ever.
>And such a situation when the militants are called
>'peaceful protesters' is against sane morals. That
>is why I think what has happened in Ukraine is not
>good.
Perhaps you can enlighten me ... how did so FEW
militants manage to break the government ? The
TV news showed violence and flames ... but they
were deceptive, disinformational reports because
all this was largely confined to a small section of
the city and didn't involve nearly as many protesters
as we've been seeing in Cairo.
That so few had so much impact ... it really does
suggest external tampering ; pay-offs to key govt
officials so they'd go along with the militants, play
their part in the staged drama.
Even now, the western press is putting a lot of
effort into portraying what happened as a "popular
revolution", widely supported, by wonderful
democracy-loving people yearning to be free
(to have euros in their wallets instead of
rubles apparently). Of course Ukraine WAS
already democratic, indeed the president had
only recently been elected - and nobody was
suggesting the polls were fixed. Western
propaganda does not jibe with Ukranian
realities.
wrote:
>Mr. B1ack, <news:eidvh9p3sc9l7g12i...@4ax.com>
>>
>> Frankly, there seems to be roughly seven billion
>> opinions as to "the way things ought to be" ... and
>> tomorrow x-percent of those opinions will have
>> changed somewhat. This means there IS NO
>> "perfect" or even "nearly perfect" form of government
>> or legal code. Any system will wind up oppressing
>> *somebody* and all real-world systems suffer from
>> entropy ... becoming more and more corrupt, mis-run
>> and centered on the power elite over time.
>>
>> So, I'd say we're destined for an eternity of civil
>> wars and revolutions - small and large. Each will
>> make some people happier and some people
>> more angry and then it starts again.
>
>It's obvious that the democracy can not work just
>as a tyranny of the majority. For example, 50% + 1
>of voters can unite, and adopt a law that the rest
>50% - 1 must work twice more and pay triple taxes.
>Such a democracy would indeed look not very fair.
Obama expects half the population to support
>> Frankly, there seems to be roughly seven billion
>> opinions as to "the way things ought to be" ... and
>> tomorrow x-percent of those opinions will have
>> changed somewhat. This means there IS NO
>> "perfect" or even "nearly perfect" form of government
>> or legal code. Any system will wind up oppressing
>> *somebody* and all real-world systems suffer from
>> entropy ... becoming more and more corrupt, mis-run
>> and centered on the power elite over time.
>>
>> So, I'd say we're destined for an eternity of civil
>> wars and revolutions - small and large. Each will
>> make some people happier and some people
>> more angry and then it starts again.
>
>It's obvious that the democracy can not work just
>as a tyranny of the majority. For example, 50% + 1
>of voters can unite, and adopt a law that the rest
>50% - 1 must work twice more and pay triple taxes.
>Such a democracy would indeed look not very fair.
both themselves AND "the poor" ... and gets
away with it because his party has a (slim)
majority. A slightly wider majority can crush
all dissent, all hope for fairness.
>I think it's understandable that democracy (in its
>most general sense) may work if and only if there's
>common understanding in the society that 'we need
>a peaceful solution', - otherwise 'the whole system
>will be destroyed', and it will bring no good for
>all.
but not anymore. I think the mass media, TV news
especially, contributed to the current psychology
of intolerance and intractible stubborness - the
"MY way or HELL" mentality. TV news thrives on
"controversey" and extremes. Reason, tolerance,
moderation and compromise mean lower ratings,
they're "boring". So, over the years, TV news has
helped push people into corners instead of
helping them meet in the middle.
No kind of 'democracy' can last for long under such
circumstances. The "majority/popular will" alone
simply cannot be what solely determines public
policy. Wisdom and an understanding that people
and causes have to meet in the middle somewhere
is required ... the velvet glove rather than the iron
fist. The minory HAS to be respected, HAS to be
allowed to have some effect on public policy and
its own destiny.
But that's the America that WAS .... an enlightened
way of doing things that's rapidly fading away.
>This implies a necessity of some 'compensatory
>mechanisms' for those who disagree, and that's what
>you are talking about. But even more important,
>taking into account the above hypothetical example,
>it doesn't work without the 'ethics' and 'morals'.
extremists, which religion, which ideology ........
"morals" and "ethics" SOUND like they mean
something definite, but in reality they do not.
They mean whatever each individual thinks they
mean, and especially what individuals in POWER
think they mean (or WANT them to mean).
>But what we have in the case of the violent coups
>is not a commitment to peaceful solution, the coups
>raise the culture of coups, but not of democracy.
an extreme way of dealing with problems and
extremism promotes more extremism. A coup
is a power-grab, seizing control of the existing
system, but that system is rarely changed very
much. It's just that it's now a tool for the coup
leaders to exploit just like the previous leaders
exploited.
Revolutions have more chance of accomplishing
something because they involve a lot more people.
The existing system is usually destroyed or altered
significantly. Even thus, most revolutions don't
seem to significantly improve things - just a change
from one crappy system and crappy leaders to
another. Central/South America is nefarious in
this respect ... a long history of popular revolutions
and things are as crappy as ever.
>And such a situation when the militants are called
>'peaceful protesters' is against sane morals. That
>is why I think what has happened in Ukraine is not
>good.
militants manage to break the government ? The
TV news showed violence and flames ... but they
were deceptive, disinformational reports because
all this was largely confined to a small section of
the city and didn't involve nearly as many protesters
as we've been seeing in Cairo.
That so few had so much impact ... it really does
suggest external tampering ; pay-offs to key govt
officials so they'd go along with the militants, play
their part in the staged drama.
Even now, the western press is putting a lot of
effort into portraying what happened as a "popular
revolution", widely supported, by wonderful
democracy-loving people yearning to be free
(to have euros in their wallets instead of
rubles apparently). Of course Ukraine WAS
already democratic, indeed the president had
only recently been elected - and nobody was
suggesting the polls were fixed. Western
propaganda does not jibe with Ukranian
realities.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 14, 2014, 12:14:12 PM3/14/14
to
Mr. B1ack, <news:k222i99pd9tjv1f14...@4ax.com>
rest then it may make the whole society unstable,
this promises no good.
The 'morals and ethics' reflect the experience of
the (wo)mankind, defined by native tradition (culture,
religious, ..). When you are dealing with tradition,
the issue is to separate the real experience from the
old fallacies and formal attributes and customs that
are obsolete and irrelevant for the present-day world.
Religious bigots usually stick to the formalities.
I don't like any kind of religious or ideological
fundamentalism or extremism. But, on the other hand,
those progressives who fight the reactionaries too
ardently and praise the moral and cultural relativism
'for greater freedom' just don't realize that in fact
they promote the police state. If there is no morals
and ethics in society then the police surveillance
remains to be the only tool to prevent disorder and
crimes, including the extremism.
I think the key reason why 'so few had so much impact'
was the demoralization of Yanukovich and his government.
Since December the MSM started to play the fun game
'let's hound Yanukovich'. In turn, until the very last
moment he tried his best to look 'decent' for the West.
There was a prolonged, persistent protest meeting for
more than three months in one of the central squares of
Kiev ('maidan' means a square, some open space for
public, of Farsi/Turkic origin). The core part of the
protesters, a few thousand, inhabited there in tents.
Other people came and went. There was stage and screens.
Something was constantly happening on the stage (the
speakers, singers, praying priests ..), or there were
some movies on the screens.
So it was like an outdoor rock-feast, except that it
was not about 'what you need is love' but rigid protest
meditation against president Yanukovich; in some days I
watched it online for several hours, and I'd say that
for the most part the meditation was extremely hateful.
Initially the protest was arranged as a response to that
decision to suspend the Ukraine-EU association agreement.
At some point, those militants appeared there. In the
early December a couple of administrative buildings in
Kiev were seized, and the protest became to be more and
more violent. The militants turned out to be trained and
equipped well. Just at the time a speaker for the 'Right
Sector' first announced openly 'yes we are here, we are
trained, and we are going to make a revolution here'.
Those who watched the December-January clashes between
the militants and police might notice that the police
had no order to attack / pressure the militants, the
policemen only held the line against the attackers with
the cold arms and Molotov cocktails. At the time many
public figures and organizations in Ukraine claimed
that what is happening goes beyond of a civil protest.
They demanded from Yanukovich to order the police to
restore order, or even introduce the state of emergency.
There were a few incoherent attempts to 'restore order',
and they generated strongly condemnatory response in
the Western media. The Western leaders, including Obama,
demanded from Yanukovich to withdraw the police from
the streets, and issued nice teacher's statements that
the people must have right for peaceful protest. Nobody
in the West did not prefer to notice that the 'peaceful
protest' went far beyond from to be peaceful. Such a
response created demoralizing effect on the Ukrainian
officials, and on Yanukovich himself, who turned out to
be a chicken with no balls and brains.
The situation also created a peculiar kind of symbiosis
between the far right militants and the 'respectable'
pro-EU opposition leaders. The latter have lost their
control over the protest in January, but they preferred
to keep a good face and go to talk with Yanukovich. In
turn those militant leaders understood that they cannot
look decent for the West, and, because they really need
the Western money right now, they gave 'respectable
representative' role to the pro-EU opposition figures.
But the very key power positions (including defence and
national security) fell into the hands of the far right
after the coup, and the militants that had to be
disarmed according to the agreement of February 21 will
now be registered as elite National Guard of Ukraine.
> On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 00:39:42 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> It's obvious that the democracy can not work just
>> as a tyranny of the majority. For example, 50% + 1
>> of voters can unite, and adopt a law that the rest
>> 50% - 1 must work twice more and pay triple taxes.
>> Such a democracy would indeed look not very fair.
>
> Obama expects half the population to support
> both themselves AND "the poor" ... and gets
> away with it because his party has a (slim)
> majority. A slightly wider majority can crush
> all dissent, all hope for fairness.
Well, if the slim majority imposes its will to the
>> as a tyranny of the majority. For example, 50% + 1
>> of voters can unite, and adopt a law that the rest
>> 50% - 1 must work twice more and pay triple taxes.
>> Such a democracy would indeed look not very fair.
>
> Obama expects half the population to support
> both themselves AND "the poor" ... and gets
> away with it because his party has a (slim)
> majority. A slightly wider majority can crush
> all dissent, all hope for fairness.
rest then it may make the whole society unstable,
this promises no good.
the (wo)mankind, defined by native tradition (culture,
religious, ..). When you are dealing with tradition,
the issue is to separate the real experience from the
old fallacies and formal attributes and customs that
are obsolete and irrelevant for the present-day world.
Religious bigots usually stick to the formalities.
I don't like any kind of religious or ideological
fundamentalism or extremism. But, on the other hand,
those progressives who fight the reactionaries too
ardently and praise the moral and cultural relativism
'for greater freedom' just don't realize that in fact
they promote the police state. If there is no morals
and ethics in society then the police surveillance
remains to be the only tool to prevent disorder and
crimes, including the extremism.
was the demoralization of Yanukovich and his government.
Since December the MSM started to play the fun game
'let's hound Yanukovich'. In turn, until the very last
moment he tried his best to look 'decent' for the West.
There was a prolonged, persistent protest meeting for
more than three months in one of the central squares of
Kiev ('maidan' means a square, some open space for
public, of Farsi/Turkic origin). The core part of the
protesters, a few thousand, inhabited there in tents.
Other people came and went. There was stage and screens.
Something was constantly happening on the stage (the
speakers, singers, praying priests ..), or there were
some movies on the screens.
So it was like an outdoor rock-feast, except that it
was not about 'what you need is love' but rigid protest
meditation against president Yanukovich; in some days I
watched it online for several hours, and I'd say that
for the most part the meditation was extremely hateful.
Initially the protest was arranged as a response to that
decision to suspend the Ukraine-EU association agreement.
At some point, those militants appeared there. In the
early December a couple of administrative buildings in
Kiev were seized, and the protest became to be more and
more violent. The militants turned out to be trained and
equipped well. Just at the time a speaker for the 'Right
Sector' first announced openly 'yes we are here, we are
trained, and we are going to make a revolution here'.
Those who watched the December-January clashes between
the militants and police might notice that the police
had no order to attack / pressure the militants, the
policemen only held the line against the attackers with
the cold arms and Molotov cocktails. At the time many
public figures and organizations in Ukraine claimed
that what is happening goes beyond of a civil protest.
They demanded from Yanukovich to order the police to
restore order, or even introduce the state of emergency.
There were a few incoherent attempts to 'restore order',
and they generated strongly condemnatory response in
the Western media. The Western leaders, including Obama,
demanded from Yanukovich to withdraw the police from
the streets, and issued nice teacher's statements that
the people must have right for peaceful protest. Nobody
in the West did not prefer to notice that the 'peaceful
protest' went far beyond from to be peaceful. Such a
response created demoralizing effect on the Ukrainian
officials, and on Yanukovich himself, who turned out to
be a chicken with no balls and brains.
The situation also created a peculiar kind of symbiosis
between the far right militants and the 'respectable'
pro-EU opposition leaders. The latter have lost their
control over the protest in January, but they preferred
to keep a good face and go to talk with Yanukovich. In
turn those militant leaders understood that they cannot
look decent for the West, and, because they really need
the Western money right now, they gave 'respectable
representative' role to the pro-EU opposition figures.
But the very key power positions (including defence and
national security) fell into the hands of the far right
after the coup, and the militants that had to be
disarmed according to the agreement of February 21 will
now be registered as elite National Guard of Ukraine.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 15, 2014, 12:28:00 PM3/15/14
to
<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/>
"Obama: Russia will pay for intervention"
"Angela Merkel: Russia 'will not get away' with
annexation of Crimea"
"Ukraine crisis: Angela Merkel accuses Putin of
'stealing' Crimea"
Nowadays it seems to be impossible to 'annex' of
'steal' (without 'ethnic cleansing') a territory,
if the people living there are against that.
As far as I can sense the moods in the Russia's
society, the people en masse take that as a right
and justified solution. Of course there will be
noticeable displeasure due to the sanctions from
the West. The stocks fell. Many already have
big losses. But the people seem to be ready to
endure this burden, and they feel Russia and
Crimea are on the right side of the history while
'the West' is as evil as usual.
The future of the mainland Ukraine is in question.
So far it was a peaceful society despite all
known contradictions between different regions of
the country, but today it's changing.
"Obama: Russia will pay for intervention"
"Angela Merkel: Russia 'will not get away' with
annexation of Crimea"
"Ukraine crisis: Angela Merkel accuses Putin of
'stealing' Crimea"
Nowadays it seems to be impossible to 'annex' of
'steal' (without 'ethnic cleansing') a territory,
if the people living there are against that.
As far as I can sense the moods in the Russia's
society, the people en masse take that as a right
and justified solution. Of course there will be
noticeable displeasure due to the sanctions from
the West. The stocks fell. Many already have
big losses. But the people seem to be ready to
endure this burden, and they feel Russia and
Crimea are on the right side of the history while
'the West' is as evil as usual.
The future of the mainland Ukraine is in question.
So far it was a peaceful society despite all
known contradictions between different regions of
the country, but today it's changing.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 16, 2014, 4:07:02 AM3/16/14
to
tim.....
Mar 16, 2014, 4:36:51 AM3/16/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" wrote in message news:lg3md4$l2f$1...@os.motzarella.org...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Live Streaming is not available in your country due to rights issues"
whatever that means in reality!
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 16, 2014, 5:22:21 AM3/16/14
to
tim....., <news:bol653...@mid.individual.net>
The American and British IPs should work.
> "Oleg Smirnov" wrote in message
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8ns-u_2SA>
>
> Watch the Crimea voting online.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Live Streaming is not available in your country due to
> rights issues"
> whatever that means in reality!
I don't know what your country is.
>
> Watch the Crimea voting online.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Live Streaming is not available in your country due to
> rights issues"
> whatever that means in reality!
The American and British IPs should work.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 18, 2014, 4:21:01 PM3/18/14
to
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c6eYId4fPE#t=4m>
One more example of new Ukrainian order
illustrates why the Crimeans no longer love
Ukraine and prefer to be within Russia.
One more example of new Ukrainian order
illustrates why the Crimeans no longer love
Ukraine and prefer to be within Russia.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 20, 2014, 11:01:48 AM3/20/14
to
<http://tinyurl.com/lbb3qpr> truthdig.com
"How Cold War-Hungry Neocons Stage Managed RT Anchor Liz Wahl’s Resignation"
<http://rt.com/usa/liz-whal-neocons-twitter-101/>
"How Cold War-Hungry Neocons Stage Managed RT Anchor Liz Wahl’s Resignation"
<http://rt.com/usa/liz-whal-neocons-twitter-101/>
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 20, 2014, 3:28:14 PM3/20/14
to
<http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/26050109.asp>
"Now we have court decision, we'll eradicate Twitter.
I don't care what the international community will say.
Everyone will see the power of the Republic of Turkey."
NATO clearly lacks the Saudi Arabia membership.
"Now we have court decision, we'll eradicate Twitter.
I don't care what the international community will say.
Everyone will see the power of the Republic of Turkey."
NATO clearly lacks the Saudi Arabia membership.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 22, 2014, 12:35:23 PM3/22/14
to
Byker
Mar 22, 2014, 4:52:51 PM3/22/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote in message
news:lgke94$3r4$1...@os.motzarella.org...
"The new so-called authorities began by introducing a draft law to revise
the language policy, which was a direct infringement on the rights of ethnic
minorities."
As if the Chechen wars weren't direct infringements on the rights of ethnic
minorities
"I cannot recall a single case in history of an intervention without a
single shot being fired and with no human casualties."
Russian "interventions" for centuries usually meant mass slaughters
"In short, we have every reason to assume that the infamous policy of
containment, led in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, continues today."
And for good reason
I wonder how things would be today had Alexander Lebed succeeded Boris
Yeltsin instead of Putin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebed
Some of his more famous quotations:
On the Soviet-Afghan War: "We began the war with lofty aims but ended
up with a war against the people."
On the War of Transnistria: "I told the hooligans (separatists) in
Tiraspol and the fascists (government) in Chisinau -- either you stop
killing each other, or else I'll shoot the whole lot of you with my
tanks."
On Chechen capital Grozny: "Here we have a Russian city, bombed to bits
by Russian planes paid for by Russian taxpayers who are now going to have to
pay a second time to rebuild it."
On the Russian government: "Those who profit are the ones at the top.
They keep the doughnut for themselves and give the hole to the people."
On the Russian Minister of Defence Pavel Grachev: "I don't like
prostitutes, whether they are wearing a skirt or trousers."
On the Western democracies: "They support Yeltsin who helped start the war
in Moldova. I stopped it. He started the war in Chechnya. I stopped it. Who
is the greater democrat then, he or I? Is democracy war or peace? I think it
is the latter."
On the Russians: "Most Russians don't care whether they are ruled by
fascists or communists or even Martians as long as they can buy six kinds of
sausage in the store and lots of cheap vodka."
On himself: "I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault
general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I
see fit."
His autobiography (1997) is a brawling, entertaining read:
http://www.amazon.com/General-Alexander-Lebed-Life-Country/dp/0895264226
At the end of the book he said, "Russia is not America and can never be.
Let Russia be Russia and America be America."
news:lgke94$3r4$1...@os.motzarella.org...
"The new so-called authorities began by introducing a draft law to revise
the language policy, which was a direct infringement on the rights of ethnic
minorities."
As if the Chechen wars weren't direct infringements on the rights of ethnic
minorities
"I cannot recall a single case in history of an intervention without a
single shot being fired and with no human casualties."
Russian "interventions" for centuries usually meant mass slaughters
"In short, we have every reason to assume that the infamous policy of
containment, led in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, continues today."
And for good reason
I wonder how things would be today had Alexander Lebed succeeded Boris
Yeltsin instead of Putin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebed
Some of his more famous quotations:
On the Soviet-Afghan War: "We began the war with lofty aims but ended
up with a war against the people."
On the War of Transnistria: "I told the hooligans (separatists) in
Tiraspol and the fascists (government) in Chisinau -- either you stop
killing each other, or else I'll shoot the whole lot of you with my
tanks."
On Chechen capital Grozny: "Here we have a Russian city, bombed to bits
by Russian planes paid for by Russian taxpayers who are now going to have to
pay a second time to rebuild it."
On the Russian government: "Those who profit are the ones at the top.
They keep the doughnut for themselves and give the hole to the people."
On the Russian Minister of Defence Pavel Grachev: "I don't like
prostitutes, whether they are wearing a skirt or trousers."
On the Western democracies: "They support Yeltsin who helped start the war
in Moldova. I stopped it. He started the war in Chechnya. I stopped it. Who
is the greater democrat then, he or I? Is democracy war or peace? I think it
is the latter."
On the Russians: "Most Russians don't care whether they are ruled by
fascists or communists or even Martians as long as they can buy six kinds of
sausage in the store and lots of cheap vodka."
On himself: "I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault
general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I
see fit."
His autobiography (1997) is a brawling, entertaining read:
http://www.amazon.com/General-Alexander-Lebed-Life-Country/dp/0895264226
At the end of the book he said, "Russia is not America and can never be.
Let Russia be Russia and America be America."
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 23, 2014, 2:06:18 AM3/23/14
to
Byker, <news:s7OdndLJd-uAZbDO...@earthlink.com>
> "I cannot recall a single case in history of an
> intervention without a single shot being fired and with
> no human casualties."
>
> Russian "interventions" for centuries usually meant mass
> slaughters
British / French / German / whatever interventions for
centuries usually meant mass slaughters, but what he is
talking about is 'no single shot' in the Crimea case.
> "In short, we have every reason to assume that the
> infamous policy of containment, led in the 18th, 19th and
> 20th centuries, continues today."
>
> And for good reason
>
>
> I wonder how things would be today had Alexander Lebed
> succeeded Boris Yeltsin instead of Putin.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebed
Irrelevant once more.
>> By the way, Putin's speech.
>>
>> <http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889>
>>
>> Worth to read.
>
> "The new so-called authorities began by introducing a
> draft law to revise the language policy, which was a
> direct infringement on the rights of ethnic minorities."
>
> As if the Chechen wars weren't direct infringements on
> the rights of ethnic minorities
Please learn the case before issuing absurdity.
>>
>> <http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889>
>>
>> Worth to read.
>
> "The new so-called authorities began by introducing a
> draft law to revise the language policy, which was a
> direct infringement on the rights of ethnic minorities."
>
> As if the Chechen wars weren't direct infringements on
> the rights of ethnic minorities
> "I cannot recall a single case in history of an
> intervention without a single shot being fired and with
> no human casualties."
>
> Russian "interventions" for centuries usually meant mass
> slaughters
centuries usually meant mass slaughters, but what he is
talking about is 'no single shot' in the Crimea case.
> "In short, we have every reason to assume that the
> infamous policy of containment, led in the 18th, 19th and
> 20th centuries, continues today."
>
> And for good reason
>
>
> I wonder how things would be today had Alexander Lebed
> succeeded Boris Yeltsin instead of Putin.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebed
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 23, 2014, 2:34:16 AM3/23/14
to
<http://tinyurl.com/n9w3afw> spiegel.de, draft retelling of
The shadow of China hung over Ukraine: Beijing supports Russia
While the West is trying to isolate Russia, China stands to Vladimir Putin's
side. Working behind the scenes, Moscow and Beijing already on plans for a
military political alliance; an alliance that can change balance of power in
the world dramatically.
Recently the main outlet of Communist party of China, with 70 million members,
the Renmin Zhibao newspaper in the editorial wrote that in view of situation
around Ukraine, "the cold war shrouded in spirit", "strategic rapprochement of
Russia and China becomes a stability stronghold in the world". "Russia under
the leadership of Vladimir Putin forced the West to understand that in cold
war there can't be winners".
One more Chinese newspaper, Global Times which is also controlled by a CPC,
writes about policy of the western countries in Ukraine as about "fiasco of
the West". "Its project of creation of a westernized mode failed and created
chaos, to order which the West has neither opportunities, nor wisdom". In this
regard, concludes the edition, "we can't disappoint Russia when it should
fight against difficulties. China has to become the reliable strategic
partner".
Friendly and strong words about Russia in leading Chinese editions, are made
comments by the observer of German of Der Spiegel Uwe Klusmann, testify that
"in opposition of Russia with the West the most occupied country in the world
costs on the party of the most extensive country". The front pages of the
Chinese state editions don't leave the slightest doubts. ..
The shadow of China hung over Ukraine: Beijing supports Russia
While the West is trying to isolate Russia, China stands to Vladimir Putin's
side. Working behind the scenes, Moscow and Beijing already on plans for a
military political alliance; an alliance that can change balance of power in
the world dramatically.
Recently the main outlet of Communist party of China, with 70 million members,
the Renmin Zhibao newspaper in the editorial wrote that in view of situation
around Ukraine, "the cold war shrouded in spirit", "strategic rapprochement of
Russia and China becomes a stability stronghold in the world". "Russia under
the leadership of Vladimir Putin forced the West to understand that in cold
war there can't be winners".
One more Chinese newspaper, Global Times which is also controlled by a CPC,
writes about policy of the western countries in Ukraine as about "fiasco of
the West". "Its project of creation of a westernized mode failed and created
chaos, to order which the West has neither opportunities, nor wisdom". In this
regard, concludes the edition, "we can't disappoint Russia when it should
fight against difficulties. China has to become the reliable strategic
partner".
Friendly and strong words about Russia in leading Chinese editions, are made
comments by the observer of German of Der Spiegel Uwe Klusmann, testify that
"in opposition of Russia with the West the most occupied country in the world
costs on the party of the most extensive country". The front pages of the
Chinese state editions don't leave the slightest doubts. ..
Mr. B1ack
Mar 23, 2014, 2:51:51 AM3/23/14
to
On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 10:06:18 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
Lebed .... there wouldn't be anyone left to
discuss it ...............
Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
at heart.
Such a pity about his helicopter "accident" hmm ? :-)
wrote:
discuss it ...............
Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
at heart.
Such a pity about his helicopter "accident" hmm ? :-)
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 23, 2014, 3:06:34 AM3/23/14
to
Mr. B1ack, <news:fv0ti9dbqrs10g3n1...@4ax.com>
>>> I wonder how things would be today had Alexander Lebed
>>> succeeded Boris Yeltsin instead of Putin.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebed
>>
>> Irrelevant once more.
>
> Lebed .... there wouldn't be anyone left to
> discuss it ...............
>
> Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
> at heart.
I don't quite understand this, in my view this
sharp figure was more an adventurer without clear
political agenda rather than something else.
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 10:06:18 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>> Byker, <news:s7OdndLJd-uAZbDO...@earthlink.com>
>>> I wonder how things would be today had Alexander Lebed
>>> succeeded Boris Yeltsin instead of Putin.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebed
>>
>> Irrelevant once more.
>
> Lebed .... there wouldn't be anyone left to
> discuss it ...............
>
> Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
> at heart.
sharp figure was more an adventurer without clear
political agenda rather than something else.
Byker
Mar 23, 2014, 2:00:46 PM3/23/14
to
"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
news:fv0ti9dbqrs10g3n1...@4ax.com...
>
>
> Such a pity about his helicopter "accident" hmm ? :-)
Whenever "notable" Russians die in "accidents," most Russians don't believe
>
> Such a pity about his helicopter "accident" hmm ? :-)
it one bit.
Barry Bruyea
Mar 23, 2014, 3:24:47 PM3/23/14
to
On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 10:34:16 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
><http://tinyurl.com/n9w3afw> spiegel.de, draft retelling of
>
>The shadow of China hung over Ukraine: Beijing supports Russia
>While the West is trying to isolate Russia, China stands to Vladimir Putin's
>side. Working behind the scenes, Moscow and Beijing already on plans for a
>military political alliance; an alliance that can change balance of power in
>the world dramatically.
The Chinese know they are going to need help come the revolution. The
massive disparity in the Chinese Populace is an open cut and soon it
will be a running sore.
>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
>http://www.avast.com
wrote:
><http://tinyurl.com/n9w3afw> spiegel.de, draft retelling of
>
>The shadow of China hung over Ukraine: Beijing supports Russia
>While the West is trying to isolate Russia, China stands to Vladimir Putin's
>side. Working behind the scenes, Moscow and Beijing already on plans for a
>military political alliance; an alliance that can change balance of power in
>the world dramatically.
massive disparity in the Chinese Populace is an open cut and soon it
will be a running sore.
>
>Recently the main outlet of Communist party of China, with 70 million members,
>the Renmin Zhibao newspaper in the editorial wrote that in view of situation
>around Ukraine, "the cold war shrouded in spirit", "strategic rapprochement of
>Russia and China becomes a stability stronghold in the world". "Russia under
>the leadership of Vladimir Putin forced the West to understand that in cold
>war there can't be winners".
>
>One more Chinese newspaper, Global Times which is also controlled by a CPC,
>writes about policy of the western countries in Ukraine as about "fiasco of
>the West". "Its project of creation of a westernized mode failed and created
>chaos, to order which the West has neither opportunities, nor wisdom". In this
>regard, concludes the edition, "we can't disappoint Russia when it should
>fight against difficulties. China has to become the reliable strategic
>partner".
>
>Friendly and strong words about Russia in leading Chinese editions, are made
>comments by the observer of German of Der Spiegel Uwe Klusmann, testify that
>"in opposition of Russia with the West the most occupied country in the world
>costs on the party of the most extensive country". The front pages of the
>Chinese state editions don't leave the slightest doubts. ..
>
>
>---
>Recently the main outlet of Communist party of China, with 70 million members,
>the Renmin Zhibao newspaper in the editorial wrote that in view of situation
>around Ukraine, "the cold war shrouded in spirit", "strategic rapprochement of
>Russia and China becomes a stability stronghold in the world". "Russia under
>the leadership of Vladimir Putin forced the West to understand that in cold
>war there can't be winners".
>
>One more Chinese newspaper, Global Times which is also controlled by a CPC,
>writes about policy of the western countries in Ukraine as about "fiasco of
>the West". "Its project of creation of a westernized mode failed and created
>chaos, to order which the West has neither opportunities, nor wisdom". In this
>regard, concludes the edition, "we can't disappoint Russia when it should
>fight against difficulties. China has to become the reliable strategic
>partner".
>
>Friendly and strong words about Russia in leading Chinese editions, are made
>comments by the observer of German of Der Spiegel Uwe Klusmann, testify that
>"in opposition of Russia with the West the most occupied country in the world
>costs on the party of the most extensive country". The front pages of the
>Chinese state editions don't leave the slightest doubts. ..
>
>
>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
>http://www.avast.com
Michael Swift
Mar 23, 2014, 8:08:12 PM3/23/14
to
In article <duednbzuZ4_VvLLO...@earthlink.com>, Byker
<byker@do~rag.net> writes
The KGB used to always go around in threes, one could write, one could
read and the other was to keep an eye on the intellectuals.
Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
<byker@do~rag.net> writes
>> Such a pity about his helicopter "accident" hmm ? :-)
>
>Whenever "notable" Russians die in "accidents," most Russians don't
>believe it one bit.
Reminds me of an old Soviet era joke.
>
>Whenever "notable" Russians die in "accidents," most Russians don't
>believe it one bit.
The KGB used to always go around in threes, one could write, one could
read and the other was to keep an eye on the intellectuals.
Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 24, 2014, 6:32:06 AM3/24/14
to
Why not? :)
<https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/alaska-back-russia/SFG1ppfN>
WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:
Alaska back to Russia.
Groups Siberian russians crossed the Isthmus (now the Bering Strait) 16-10
thousand years ago.
Russian began to settle on the Arctic coast, Aleuts inhabited the Aleutian
Archipelago.
First visited Alaska August 21, 1732, members of the team boat "St.
Gabriel »under the surveyor Gvozdev and assistant navigator I. Fedorov
during the expedition Shestakov and DI Pavlutski 1729-1735 years
Vote for secession of Alaska from the United States and joining Russia
Created: Mar 21, 2014
SIGNATURES NEEDED BY APRIL 20, 2014 TO REACH GOAL OF 100,000 85,191
TOTAL SIGNATURES ON THIS PETITION 14,809
<https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/alaska-back-russia/SFG1ppfN>
WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:
Alaska back to Russia.
Groups Siberian russians crossed the Isthmus (now the Bering Strait) 16-10
thousand years ago.
Russian began to settle on the Arctic coast, Aleuts inhabited the Aleutian
Archipelago.
First visited Alaska August 21, 1732, members of the team boat "St.
Gabriel »under the surveyor Gvozdev and assistant navigator I. Fedorov
during the expedition Shestakov and DI Pavlutski 1729-1735 years
Vote for secession of Alaska from the United States and joining Russia
Created: Mar 21, 2014
SIGNATURES NEEDED BY APRIL 20, 2014 TO REACH GOAL OF 100,000 85,191
TOTAL SIGNATURES ON THIS PETITION 14,809
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 24, 2014, 8:27:10 AM3/24/14
to
<http://tinyurl.com/pym857o>
"The president went on to say, "The Ukrainian people do not have
to choose between East and West. On the contrary, it’s important
that Ukraine have good relations with the United States, Russia,
and Europe. As I’ve said, the future of Ukraine ought to be
decided by the people of Ukraine.""
These wise words should be said in November 2013.
<http://www.thenation.com/article/178344/distorting-russia>
"The now exceedingly dangerous confrontation between the two
Ukraines was not “ignited,” as the Times claims, by Yanukovych’s
duplicitous negotiating — or by Putin — but by the EU’s reckless
ultimatum, in November, that the democratically elected president
of a profoundly divided country choose between Europe and Russia.
Putin’s proposal for a tripartite arrangement, rarely if ever
reported, was flatly rejected by US and EU officials."
It's rather difficult to push the paste back into the tube.
...
"The president went on to say, "The Ukrainian people do not have
to choose between East and West. On the contrary, it’s important
that Ukraine have good relations with the United States, Russia,
and Europe. As I’ve said, the future of Ukraine ought to be
decided by the people of Ukraine.""
These wise words should be said in November 2013.
<http://www.thenation.com/article/178344/distorting-russia>
"The now exceedingly dangerous confrontation between the two
Ukraines was not “ignited,” as the Times claims, by Yanukovych’s
duplicitous negotiating — or by Putin — but by the EU’s reckless
ultimatum, in November, that the democratically elected president
of a profoundly divided country choose between Europe and Russia.
Putin’s proposal for a tripartite arrangement, rarely if ever
reported, was flatly rejected by US and EU officials."
It's rather difficult to push the paste back into the tube.
...
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 24, 2014, 11:18:12 AM3/24/14
to
<http://tinyurl.com/qfxfcg8> There is a video (with translation)
In Japan, however, an admiring audience has emerged for Natalia Poklonskaya,
Crimea's new attorney general. After serving the Ukrainian government for 12
years as a criminal prosecutor and busting local gangs, she swore allegiance
to the breakaway Crimean government and gained her new post on March 11. In
a press conference posted on YouTube, Poklonskaya outlined the legal basis
of the new government's authority and denounced the "chaos" and "bloodshed"
she personally witnessed in Ukraine's capital, Kyiv. .. her combination of
apparent youth (she is 33), girlish looks, and military uniform appeal to
current moe trends. The video has already surpassed a million views. Posts
about her often carry the description "too beautiful." .. Poklonskaya has
also gained an admiring audience in China, where posters on Weibo have made
comments such as "Well, now we know the reason why Putin wants Crimea."
Before long, artwork of Poklonskaya in moe or chibi form appeared on Pixiv
and other art-sharing sites. Many drawings originated from outside Japan, in
places like Iceland and Taiwan.
In Japan, however, an admiring audience has emerged for Natalia Poklonskaya,
Crimea's new attorney general. After serving the Ukrainian government for 12
years as a criminal prosecutor and busting local gangs, she swore allegiance
to the breakaway Crimean government and gained her new post on March 11. In
a press conference posted on YouTube, Poklonskaya outlined the legal basis
of the new government's authority and denounced the "chaos" and "bloodshed"
she personally witnessed in Ukraine's capital, Kyiv. .. her combination of
apparent youth (she is 33), girlish looks, and military uniform appeal to
current moe trends. The video has already surpassed a million views. Posts
about her often carry the description "too beautiful." .. Poklonskaya has
also gained an admiring audience in China, where posters on Weibo have made
comments such as "Well, now we know the reason why Putin wants Crimea."
Before long, artwork of Poklonskaya in moe or chibi form appeared on Pixiv
and other art-sharing sites. Many drawings originated from outside Japan, in
places like Iceland and Taiwan.
Mr. B1ack
Mar 24, 2014, 12:12:55 PM3/24/14
to
On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 11:06:34 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
I judge him by the company he kept ... and
as time went on, more and more of them
fell into the ultranationalist category. To have
really gotten the backing and votes to oust
someone like Putin/Medvedev he'd have HAD
to rally the far-far-right. "No agenda" would
have been replaced with the agendas of
his power base.
Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
him Czar and be done with it ....
wrote:
as time went on, more and more of them
fell into the ultranationalist category. To have
really gotten the backing and votes to oust
someone like Putin/Medvedev he'd have HAD
to rally the far-far-right. "No agenda" would
have been replaced with the agendas of
his power base.
Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
him Czar and be done with it ....
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 24, 2014, 12:25:13 PM3/24/14
to
Mr. B1ack, <news:9tl0j9pmr4nhuh4to...@4ax.com>
in the Russian domestic politics and don't know
the background.
> Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
> the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
> himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
> will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
> him Czar and be done with it ....
The Russia's internals are pretty complicated for
a stranger, that's why the Westerners rely on the
emigres, but the emigres themselves are askew.
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 11:06:34 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>>> Lebed .... there wouldn't be anyone left to
>>> discuss it ...............
>>>
>>> Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
>>> at heart.
>>
>> I don't quite understand this, in my view this
>> sharp figure was more an adventurer without clear
>> political agenda rather than something else.
>
> I judge him by the company he kept ... and
> as time went on, more and more of them
> fell into the ultranationalist category. To have
> really gotten the backing and votes to oust
> someone like Putin/Medvedev he'd have HAD
> to rally the far-far-right. "No agenda" would
> have been replaced with the agendas of
> his power base.
This means that you understand pretty nothing
>>> discuss it ...............
>>>
>>> Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
>>> at heart.
>>
>> I don't quite understand this, in my view this
>> sharp figure was more an adventurer without clear
>> political agenda rather than something else.
>
> I judge him by the company he kept ... and
> as time went on, more and more of them
> fell into the ultranationalist category. To have
> really gotten the backing and votes to oust
> someone like Putin/Medvedev he'd have HAD
> to rally the far-far-right. "No agenda" would
> have been replaced with the agendas of
> his power base.
in the Russian domestic politics and don't know
the background.
> Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
> the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
> himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
> will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
> him Czar and be done with it ....
a stranger, that's why the Westerners rely on the
emigres, but the emigres themselves are askew.
Byker
Mar 24, 2014, 1:34:30 PM3/24/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote in message
news:lgp1ku$alt$1...@os.motzarella.org...
> Why not? :)
>
> <https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/alaska-back-russia/SFG1ppfN>
>
> WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:
>
> Alaska back to Russia.
Maybe after we've extracted all the oil and gold ;-)
>
> <https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/alaska-back-russia/SFG1ppfN>
>
> WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:
>
> Alaska back to Russia.
Byker
Mar 24, 2014, 1:43:24 PM3/24/14
to
"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
news:9tl0j9pmr4nhuh4to...@4ax.com...
>
> Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
> the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
> himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
> will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
> him Czar and be done with it ....
In Zbigniew Brzezinski's "The Grand Failure" (1989), about the coming
> Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
> the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
> himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
> will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
> him Czar and be done with it ....
collapse of communism, he stated that after Moscow scraps Marxism, Russia
would eventually be led by a "Slavic Juan Peron."
Mr. B1ack
Mar 24, 2014, 9:46:38 PM3/24/14
to
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:25:13 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
>Mr. B1ack, <news:9tl0j9pmr4nhuh4to...@4ax.com>
>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 11:06:34 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>
>>>> Lebed .... there wouldn't be anyone left to
>>>> discuss it ...............
>>>>
>>>> Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
>>>> at heart.
>>>
>>> I don't quite understand this, in my view this
>>> sharp figure was more an adventurer without clear
>>> political agenda rather than something else.
>>
>> I judge him by the company he kept ... and
>> as time went on, more and more of them
>> fell into the ultranationalist category. To have
>> really gotten the backing and votes to oust
>> someone like Putin/Medvedev he'd have HAD
>> to rally the far-far-right. "No agenda" would
>> have been replaced with the agendas of
>> his power base.
>
>This means that you understand pretty nothing
>in the Russian domestic politics and don't know
>the background.
I'm hardly the only one with this view of Lebed ...
As for politics, the rules are the same everywhere - you
have to get powerful people to back you - industrialists
and bankers and media bosses and, of course, the military.
They can make, or break, the publics approval of any
wannabe czar (in countries where that matters).
>> Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
>> the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
>> himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
>> will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
>> him Czar and be done with it ....
>
>The Russia's internals are pretty complicated for
>a stranger, that's why the Westerners rely on the
>emigres, but the emigres themselves are askew.
So nobody knows how it works anymore ??? That
could be serious.
wrote:
>Mr. B1ack, <news:9tl0j9pmr4nhuh4to...@4ax.com>
>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 11:06:34 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>
>>>> Lebed .... there wouldn't be anyone left to
>>>> discuss it ...............
>>>>
>>>> Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
>>>> at heart.
>>>
>>> I don't quite understand this, in my view this
>>> sharp figure was more an adventurer without clear
>>> political agenda rather than something else.
>>
>> I judge him by the company he kept ... and
>> as time went on, more and more of them
>> fell into the ultranationalist category. To have
>> really gotten the backing and votes to oust
>> someone like Putin/Medvedev he'd have HAD
>> to rally the far-far-right. "No agenda" would
>> have been replaced with the agendas of
>> his power base.
>
>This means that you understand pretty nothing
>in the Russian domestic politics and don't know
>the background.
As for politics, the rules are the same everywhere - you
have to get powerful people to back you - industrialists
and bankers and media bosses and, of course, the military.
They can make, or break, the publics approval of any
wannabe czar (in countries where that matters).
>> Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
>> the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
>> himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
>> will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
>> him Czar and be done with it ....
>
>The Russia's internals are pretty complicated for
>a stranger, that's why the Westerners rely on the
>emigres, but the emigres themselves are askew.
could be serious.
Mr. B1ack
Mar 24, 2014, 9:55:44 PM3/24/14
to
commie absolute rulers ... 1000+ years of
micromanaging totalitarianism. Frankly there's
no tradition of self-determination or self-management
or self-sufficiency. Everything's always been run
from the top and Russians find it hard to think
outside that box. Oh, they may TALK like they do,
but in the end they fall in line behind someone who
acts like a czar.
IMHO, it's gonna take Russia another century or so
to break out of that mindset. It took europe about 200
years - the 17th and 18th centuries mostly - with all
the divergent mold-breaking thinking that went on.
Russia missed out and will have to catch up.
Byker
Mar 24, 2014, 11:56:14 PM3/24/14
to
news:k0o1j91c46vi6ot31...@4ax.com...
1861. Czar Alexander II signed the edict some 400 years after Western
Europe abolished it.
>
> Russia went from hereditary absolute rulers to
> commie absolute rulers ... 1000+ years of
> micromanaging totalitarianism. Frankly there's
> no tradition of self-determination or self-management
> or self-sufficiency. Everything's always been run
> from the top and Russians find it hard to think
> outside that box. Oh, they may TALK like they do,
> but in the end they fall in line behind someone who
> acts like a czar.
>
> IMHO, it's gonna take Russia another century or so
> to break out of that mindset. It took europe about 200
> years - the 17th and 18th centuries mostly - with all
> the divergent mold-breaking thinking that went on.
> Russia missed out and will have to catch up.
If I remember my history right, Russia didn't emancipate its serfs until
> Russia went from hereditary absolute rulers to
> commie absolute rulers ... 1000+ years of
> micromanaging totalitarianism. Frankly there's
> no tradition of self-determination or self-management
> or self-sufficiency. Everything's always been run
> from the top and Russians find it hard to think
> outside that box. Oh, they may TALK like they do,
> but in the end they fall in line behind someone who
> acts like a czar.
>
> IMHO, it's gonna take Russia another century or so
> to break out of that mindset. It took europe about 200
> years - the 17th and 18th centuries mostly - with all
> the divergent mold-breaking thinking that went on.
> Russia missed out and will have to catch up.
1861. Czar Alexander II signed the edict some 400 years after Western
Europe abolished it.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 25, 2014, 3:49:02 AM3/25/14
to
Byker, <news:JOqdnTgld63_Y63O...@earthlink.com>
> If I remember my history right, Russia didn't emancipate
> its serfs until 1861. Czar Alexander II signed the edict
> some 400 years after Western Europe abolished it.
What Western Europe? There was beginning of emancipation
in England. It was finalized in the 16 century. It's easy
to keep the crowds of poor beggars in a small island.
To better understand the situation also take an interest
in what part of lands were owned by large landlords.
Other countries <http://is.gd/snuN3w>, 18 - 19 century.
Russia's case is as unique as British in the opposite
sense: the low-populated areas to the east and south of
the central region provided an attractive open road for
migration since the 14 century, for those who wanted more
liberty and risk, and less statehood. This way of letting
the steam off constrained the society from heavy peasant
revolutions, and at the same time it was a part of the
mechanism of great Russian expansion in Eurasia since the
15 century.
> If I remember my history right, Russia didn't emancipate
> its serfs until 1861. Czar Alexander II signed the edict
> some 400 years after Western Europe abolished it.
in England. It was finalized in the 16 century. It's easy
to keep the crowds of poor beggars in a small island.
To better understand the situation also take an interest
in what part of lands were owned by large landlords.
Other countries <http://is.gd/snuN3w>, 18 - 19 century.
Russia's case is as unique as British in the opposite
sense: the low-populated areas to the east and south of
the central region provided an attractive open road for
migration since the 14 century, for those who wanted more
liberty and risk, and less statehood. This way of letting
the steam off constrained the society from heavy peasant
revolutions, and at the same time it was a part of the
mechanism of great Russian expansion in Eurasia since the
15 century.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 25, 2014, 4:35:50 AM3/25/14
to
Mr. B1ack, <news:pmn1j9dev15va5hu1...@4ax.com>
> As for politics, the rules are the same everywhere - you
> have to get powerful people to back you - industrialists
> and bankers and media bosses and, of course, the
> military. They can make, or break, the publics approval
> of any wannabe czar (in countries where that matters).
>
>
>>> Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
>>> the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
>>> himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
>>> will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
>>> him Czar and be done with it ....
>>
>> The Russia's internals are pretty complicated for
>> a stranger, that's why the Westerners rely on the
>> emigres, but the emigres themselves are askew.
>
> So nobody knows how it works anymore ??? That
> could be serious.
When Assange published recently those diplomatic
'cables', a funny thing revealed there, about the
American official representatives in Russia: they
prefer to receive information mostly from those
persons who know well what the Westerners like to
hear and are ready to say just that, regardless of
how it may be adequate or not so.
That's how the virtual reality reproduces itself.
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:25:13 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
> <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>>>>> Lebed .... there wouldn't be anyone left to
>>>>> discuss it ...............
>>>>>
>>>>> Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
>>>>> at heart.
>>>>
>>>> I don't quite understand this, in my view this
>>>> sharp figure was more an adventurer without clear
>>>> political agenda rather than something else.
>>>
>>> I judge him by the company he kept ... and
>>> as time went on, more and more of them
>>> fell into the ultranationalist category. To have
>>> really gotten the backing and votes to oust
>>> someone like Putin/Medvedev he'd have HAD
>>> to rally the far-far-right. "No agenda" would
>>> have been replaced with the agendas of
>>> his power base.
>>
>> This means that you understand pretty nothing
>> in the Russian domestic politics and don't know
>> the background.
>
> I'm hardly the only one with this view of Lebed ...
This is called 'popular myth'.
> <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>>>>> Lebed .... there wouldn't be anyone left to
>>>>> discuss it ...............
>>>>>
>>>>> Ultra-nationalists have nobody's best interests
>>>>> at heart.
>>>>
>>>> I don't quite understand this, in my view this
>>>> sharp figure was more an adventurer without clear
>>>> political agenda rather than something else.
>>>
>>> I judge him by the company he kept ... and
>>> as time went on, more and more of them
>>> fell into the ultranationalist category. To have
>>> really gotten the backing and votes to oust
>>> someone like Putin/Medvedev he'd have HAD
>>> to rally the far-far-right. "No agenda" would
>>> have been replaced with the agendas of
>>> his power base.
>>
>> This means that you understand pretty nothing
>> in the Russian domestic politics and don't know
>> the background.
>
> I'm hardly the only one with this view of Lebed ...
> As for politics, the rules are the same everywhere - you
> have to get powerful people to back you - industrialists
> and bankers and media bosses and, of course, the
> military. They can make, or break, the publics approval
> of any wannabe czar (in countries where that matters).
>
>
>>> Now though ... Putin seems intent on capturing
>>> the further-right/ultranationalist segment for
>>> himself with his new "tougher" attitude. Russia
>>> will never get rid of him ; may as well just crown
>>> him Czar and be done with it ....
>>
>> The Russia's internals are pretty complicated for
>> a stranger, that's why the Westerners rely on the
>> emigres, but the emigres themselves are askew.
>
> So nobody knows how it works anymore ??? That
> could be serious.
'cables', a funny thing revealed there, about the
American official representatives in Russia: they
prefer to receive information mostly from those
persons who know well what the Westerners like to
hear and are ready to say just that, regardless of
how it may be adequate or not so.
That's how the virtual reality reproduces itself.
Steve
Mar 25, 2014, 6:41:36 AM3/25/14
to
On Tue, 25 Mar 2014 02:21:15 -0700 (PDT), trainguard
<barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 20:42:34 UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Mr. B1ack, <news:e4c1i9tilolb985oo...@4ax.com>
>>
>> > On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 13:27:08 -0500, "Byker"
>>
>>
>>
>> >>> Eventually somebody gets boxed-in or fed up to
>>
>> >>> the point of being nutso ... and the global meltdown
>>
>> >>> commences.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Let's see how Putin reacts when he realizes his ego has
>>
>> >> gotten the best of him
>>
>> >
>>
>> > While he definitely HAS an ego, I don't think
>>
>> > the Crimea thing is a result of ego. Those
>>
>> > warm-water ports really are a Russian "vital
>>
>> > national interest". Russia HAS to make sure
>>
>> > they're secure against the anti-Russian coup
>>
>> > govt in Kiev.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Or do you think "vital national interests" apply
>>
>> > ONLY to the USA and friends ... ?
>>
>>
>>
>> The 'warm-water ports' are still not of global
>> military importance, the most important Russia's
>> ports (from where the Russian submarines can
>> approach, say, the American coasts) are in other
>> places.
>>
>>
>
>Which the Chinese covet. I would like to see your face if the Chinese eventually move in on Vladivostok and Siberia to 'protect' their investments (far more than Russian capital in the region), companies, and 100,000 + businessmen already active.
>
>
>Dr. Barry Worthington
>
>P.S. I recently had a fun time in Kaliningrad.
<LOL> There must be gay bath houses in Kaliningrad
--
Should we feel bad for the leftists who, after seeing one of their
own become the President, discover that he is an incompetant,
nutless coward just like themselves?
<barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 20:42:34 UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Mr. B1ack, <news:e4c1i9tilolb985oo...@4ax.com>
>>
>> > On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 13:27:08 -0500, "Byker"
>>
>>
>>
>> >>> Eventually somebody gets boxed-in or fed up to
>>
>> >>> the point of being nutso ... and the global meltdown
>>
>> >>> commences.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Let's see how Putin reacts when he realizes his ego has
>>
>> >> gotten the best of him
>>
>> >
>>
>> > While he definitely HAS an ego, I don't think
>>
>> > the Crimea thing is a result of ego. Those
>>
>> > warm-water ports really are a Russian "vital
>>
>> > national interest". Russia HAS to make sure
>>
>> > they're secure against the anti-Russian coup
>>
>> > govt in Kiev.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Or do you think "vital national interests" apply
>>
>> > ONLY to the USA and friends ... ?
>>
>>
>>
>> The 'warm-water ports' are still not of global
>> military importance, the most important Russia's
>> ports (from where the Russian submarines can
>> approach, say, the American coasts) are in other
>> places.
>>
>>
>
>Which the Chinese covet. I would like to see your face if the Chinese eventually move in on Vladivostok and Siberia to 'protect' their investments (far more than Russian capital in the region), companies, and 100,000 + businessmen already active.
>
>
>Dr. Barry Worthington
>
>P.S. I recently had a fun time in Kaliningrad.
<LOL> There must be gay bath houses in Kaliningrad
--
Should we feel bad for the leftists who, after seeing one of their
own become the President, discover that he is an incompetant,
nutless coward just like themselves?
Mr. B1ack
Mar 25, 2014, 9:38:31 AM3/25/14
to
On Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:35:50 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
In politics, rumors = Truth ... and popular rumors
even more so :-)
Tell the people what they want to believe and
you will be hailed as an oracle. Tell them a
bitter truth, no matter how well supported, and
you will be reviled as a liar and deceiver. Joe
Goebbels knew it, Putin knows it, Obama
knows it too.
Which creates an interesting situation wherein
consumer-level "politics" is always 'virtual reality',
a fairy-tale, and must remain so .... whereas
realpolitik must still be, well, real. The trick is
in maintaining the fairy-tale, keeping it self-
consistent, yet still coping with an ever-changing
real-world at the same time.
Is this possible to maintain forever ... for a
generation or two at least ? The consequences
of an irreality collapse can be severe, can even
shatter nations. Some lies/myths are SO
attractive that to even speak the Truth brings
great risk, and if that Truth comes to be believed
there will be a violent reaction as worldviews
and 'realities' crash down.
Of equal danger, vital decisions - personal and
political - wind up being made based on false
information. Error leads to more error. This is
bad for individuals and absolute poison in any
kind of "democracy" where mass judgement
translates into public policies and laws.
even more so :-)
Tell the people what they want to believe and
you will be hailed as an oracle. Tell them a
bitter truth, no matter how well supported, and
you will be reviled as a liar and deceiver. Joe
Goebbels knew it, Putin knows it, Obama
knows it too.
Which creates an interesting situation wherein
consumer-level "politics" is always 'virtual reality',
a fairy-tale, and must remain so .... whereas
realpolitik must still be, well, real. The trick is
in maintaining the fairy-tale, keeping it self-
consistent, yet still coping with an ever-changing
real-world at the same time.
Is this possible to maintain forever ... for a
generation or two at least ? The consequences
of an irreality collapse can be severe, can even
shatter nations. Some lies/myths are SO
attractive that to even speak the Truth brings
great risk, and if that Truth comes to be believed
there will be a violent reaction as worldviews
and 'realities' crash down.
Of equal danger, vital decisions - personal and
political - wind up being made based on false
information. Error leads to more error. This is
bad for individuals and absolute poison in any
kind of "democracy" where mass judgement
translates into public policies and laws.
Mr. B1ack
Mar 25, 2014, 9:47:01 AM3/25/14
to
On Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:49:02 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
>Byker, <news:JOqdnTgld63_Y63O...@earthlink.com>
>
>> If I remember my history right, Russia didn't emancipate
>> its serfs until 1861. Czar Alexander II signed the edict
>> some 400 years after Western Europe abolished it.
>
>What Western Europe? There was beginning of emancipation
>in England. It was finalized in the 16 century. It's easy
>to keep the crowds of poor beggars in a small island.
>To better understand the situation also take an interest
>in what part of lands were owned by large landlords.
Well ... there's serfdom in NAME and then there's
serfdom in PRACTICE. "Free" workers were often
treated like serfs and slaves even in the "enlightened"
western nations even into the early 20th century.
>Other countries <http://is.gd/snuN3w>, 18 - 19 century.
>
>Russia's case is as unique as British in the opposite
>sense: the low-populated areas to the east and south of
>the central region provided an attractive open road for
>migration since the 14 century, for those who wanted more
>liberty and risk, and less statehood. This way of letting
>the steam off constrained the society from heavy peasant
>revolutions, and at the same time it was a part of the
>mechanism of great Russian expansion in Eurasia since the
>15 century.
I've noted a similar phenomena regarding Mexico and
points south. Immigration - legal or not - to the USA
has created a "steam valve" that takes the pressure
off the incompetent and corrupt governments in
central/south America. Instead of staying home,
getting angry and DOING something ... the poor
and discontented simply move away. This leaves
their home countries as badly run as before, thus
ensuring a continuing problem.
Should the USA ever enact REAL immigration
restrictions or if the USA has another very bad
recession/depression and thus becomes an
unattractive destination, a wave of bloody
revolutions will sweep south/central America.
Alas, such revolutions in that area rarely *fix*
anything ... just replace despot #1 with despot #2.
wrote:
>Byker, <news:JOqdnTgld63_Y63O...@earthlink.com>
>
>> If I remember my history right, Russia didn't emancipate
>> its serfs until 1861. Czar Alexander II signed the edict
>> some 400 years after Western Europe abolished it.
>
>What Western Europe? There was beginning of emancipation
>in England. It was finalized in the 16 century. It's easy
>to keep the crowds of poor beggars in a small island.
>To better understand the situation also take an interest
>in what part of lands were owned by large landlords.
serfdom in PRACTICE. "Free" workers were often
treated like serfs and slaves even in the "enlightened"
western nations even into the early 20th century.
>Other countries <http://is.gd/snuN3w>, 18 - 19 century.
>
>Russia's case is as unique as British in the opposite
>sense: the low-populated areas to the east and south of
>the central region provided an attractive open road for
>migration since the 14 century, for those who wanted more
>liberty and risk, and less statehood. This way of letting
>the steam off constrained the society from heavy peasant
>revolutions, and at the same time it was a part of the
>mechanism of great Russian expansion in Eurasia since the
>15 century.
points south. Immigration - legal or not - to the USA
has created a "steam valve" that takes the pressure
off the incompetent and corrupt governments in
central/south America. Instead of staying home,
getting angry and DOING something ... the poor
and discontented simply move away. This leaves
their home countries as badly run as before, thus
ensuring a continuing problem.
Should the USA ever enact REAL immigration
restrictions or if the USA has another very bad
recession/depression and thus becomes an
unattractive destination, a wave of bloody
revolutions will sweep south/central America.
Alas, such revolutions in that area rarely *fix*
anything ... just replace despot #1 with despot #2.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 25, 2014, 12:45:25 PM3/25/14
to
Mr. B1ack, <news:rn13j91oskp8e7d4i...@4ax.com>
This picture is rather similar to the current
situation in Russia and the post-Soviet Stans
in the central Asia. In these Stans (excluding
Kazakhstan, the most advanced there) there are
such regimes that Russia against them looks
like a paradise of prosperity and civility ;)
A lot of labor migrants from these countries
work in Russia (about 20 - 25 million) and thus
create the steam valve for their regimes.
But this is not similar to common for Russia of
14 - 19 centuries migration to the outskirts of
the country, - those migrants migrated not from
worse regime to better regime, but from rather
lawful civil environment with hard work and
restrictive rules to a wild steppe / forest with
less restrictions and more resources.
situation in Russia and the post-Soviet Stans
in the central Asia. In these Stans (excluding
Kazakhstan, the most advanced there) there are
such regimes that Russia against them looks
like a paradise of prosperity and civility ;)
A lot of labor migrants from these countries
work in Russia (about 20 - 25 million) and thus
create the steam valve for their regimes.
But this is not similar to common for Russia of
14 - 19 centuries migration to the outskirts of
the country, - those migrants migrated not from
worse regime to better regime, but from rather
lawful civil environment with hard work and
restrictive rules to a wild steppe / forest with
less restrictions and more resources.
Byker
Mar 25, 2014, 1:47:21 PM3/25/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote in message
news:lgrchb$iq9$1...@os.motzarella.org...
>
> Russia's case is as unique as British in the opposite
> sense: the low-populated areas to the east and south of the central region
> provided an attractive open road for migration since the 14 century, for
> those who wanted more
> liberty and risk, and less statehood. This way of letting
> the steam off constrained the society from heavy peasant
> revolutions, and at the same time it was a part of the
> mechanism of great Russian expansion in Eurasia since the 15 century.
They regard the emancipation of serfs as being on par with the American
> Russia's case is as unique as British in the opposite
> sense: the low-populated areas to the east and south of the central region
> provided an attractive open road for migration since the 14 century, for
> those who wanted more
> liberty and risk, and less statehood. This way of letting
> the steam off constrained the society from heavy peasant
> revolutions, and at the same time it was a part of the
> mechanism of great Russian expansion in Eurasia since the 15 century.
freeing of slaves at around the same time
Byker
Mar 25, 2014, 1:48:51 PM3/25/14
to
"trainguard" <barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote in message
news:9f5cf1f9-f291-4200...@googlegroups.com...
>
> Ukrainians think that their civilisation and culture is far older and more
> influential than whatever was achieved by Muscovy. They are probably
> right.
Russians can trace their history as a people back 1,000 years. Ukrainians go
back to the Bronze Age
news:9f5cf1f9-f291-4200...@googlegroups.com...
>
> Ukrainians think that their civilisation and culture is far older and more
> influential than whatever was achieved by Muscovy. They are probably
> right.
Russians can trace their history as a people back 1,000 years. Ukrainians go
back to the Bronze Age
Byker
Mar 25, 2014, 1:49:21 PM3/25/14
to
"trainguard" <barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote in message
news:81af5389-ce0b-4688...@googlegroups.com...
>I would like to see your face if the Chinese eventually move in on
>Vladivostok and Siberia to 'protect' their investments (far more than
>Russian capital in the region), companies, and 100,000 + businessmen
>already active.
You can bet the Russians are paranoid as hell regarding the prospect of yet
>Vladivostok and Siberia to 'protect' their investments (far more than
>Russian capital in the region), companies, and 100,000 + businessmen
>already active.
another Golden Horde sweeping across the steppes. No doubt a large part of
their nuclear arsenal has a Chinese address on it.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 25, 2014, 3:03:04 PM3/25/14
to
Byker, <news:ttadncXfMq4aXKzO...@earthlink.com>
in the Polish or Baltic nationalist forums rather than the
American / British.
>> Ukrainians think that their civilisation and culture is
>> far older and more influential than whatever was
>> achieved by Muscovy. They are probably right.
>
> Russians can trace their history as a people back 1,000
> years. Ukrainians go back to the Bronze Age
Your inornate trolling would have looked more appropriate
>> far older and more influential than whatever was
>> achieved by Muscovy. They are probably right.
>
> Russians can trace their history as a people back 1,000
> years. Ukrainians go back to the Bronze Age
in the Polish or Baltic nationalist forums rather than the
American / British.
Byker
Mar 25, 2014, 3:44:42 PM3/25/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote in message
news:lgsk0h$u78$2...@os.motzarella.org...
>
> Your inornate trolling <snip>
Translation: "I didn't know Americanskis knew this!"
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 25, 2014, 3:57:26 PM3/25/14
to
Byker, <news:F8qdnZLVFfAzQazO...@earthlink.com>
>> Your inornate trolling <snip>
>
> Translation: "I didn't know Americanskis knew this!"
Run up, and hit a wall, Bill.
>
> Translation: "I didn't know Americanskis knew this!"
Byker
Mar 25, 2014, 5:15:04 PM3/25/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote in message
news:lgsn42$oj5$1...@os.motzarella.org...
>
> Run up, and hit a wall, Bill.
Something tells me that, given the current political situation,
> Run up, and hit a wall, Bill.
Ukrainian-born comedian Yakov Smirnoff will be enjoying a comeback. The
Sochi Olympics brought him back into the limelight:
https://tinyurl.com/ktyysmn
"In America, there's plenty of light beer and you always find a party. In
Russia, Party will always find you."
"We have no gay people in Russia -- there are homosexuals but they are not
allowed to be gay about it. The punishment is seven years locked in prison
with other men and there is a three-year waiting list for that."
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 25, 2014, 6:17:28 PM3/25/14
to
Byker, <news:EaCdnRQjK6tBbKzO...@earthlink.com>
>> Run up, and hit a wall, Bill.
>
> Something tells me that, given the current political
> situation, Ukrainian-born comedian Yakov Smirnoff will be
> enjoying a comeback. The Sochi Olympics brought him back
> into the limelight: https://tinyurl.com/ktyysmn
>
> "In America, there's plenty of light beer and you always
> find a party. In Russia, Party will always find you."
>
> "We have no gay people in Russia -- there are homosexuals
> but they are not allowed to be gay about it. The
> punishment is seven years locked in prison with other men
> and there is a three-year waiting list for that."
The result of hitting the wall seems to be visible :)
>
> Something tells me that, given the current political
> situation, Ukrainian-born comedian Yakov Smirnoff will be
> enjoying a comeback. The Sochi Olympics brought him back
> into the limelight: https://tinyurl.com/ktyysmn
>
> "In America, there's plenty of light beer and you always
> find a party. In Russia, Party will always find you."
>
> "We have no gay people in Russia -- there are homosexuals
> but they are not allowed to be gay about it. The
> punishment is seven years locked in prison with other men
> and there is a three-year waiting list for that."
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 25, 2014, 6:16:27 PM3/25/14
to
<http://tinyurl.com/oovz3tr> Polish news
The Poles of western Ukraine complain that they believed in
democracy and gay marriage so much, and ardently supported
Maidan, but what is happening now looks not nice.
The new president of Ukraine appointed governors in Western
Ukraine derived exclusively from "Svoboda", the nationalist
party, known for its anti-Polish views, that often proclaims
anti-Polish statements, and its program has no single word
about the EU integration. They glorify honor and memory of
the UPA (the Hitler collaborates that massacred also the
Poles a little bit.) They don't respect for true Catholics,
"all the cathedrals in the city of Lvov are illuminated at
night except the Roman Catholic cathedral".
The economic policies of new government will kill business.
They decided to double various administrative fees. The
prices of medicines have risen almost by half. The upcoming
increase of prices of gas and electricity is announced.
"Meanwhile, the leader of the ultra-nationalist Right Sector
- Dmitry Yarosh - received permission from the government
to take the assets of 23 children's camps, that will be used
now as a training base for the youth of the National Guard,
which will keep order in Ukraine."
It became dangerous to live in the West Ukraine, a lot of
weapons fell into hands of different people. Various gangs
are competing against each other. "The people are afraid to
leave their homes, which has resulted in a huge drop in
turnover in the Polish border bazaars and shops."
The Poles of western Ukraine complain that they believed in
democracy and gay marriage so much, and ardently supported
Maidan, but what is happening now looks not nice.
The new president of Ukraine appointed governors in Western
Ukraine derived exclusively from "Svoboda", the nationalist
party, known for its anti-Polish views, that often proclaims
anti-Polish statements, and its program has no single word
about the EU integration. They glorify honor and memory of
the UPA (the Hitler collaborates that massacred also the
Poles a little bit.) They don't respect for true Catholics,
"all the cathedrals in the city of Lvov are illuminated at
night except the Roman Catholic cathedral".
The economic policies of new government will kill business.
They decided to double various administrative fees. The
prices of medicines have risen almost by half. The upcoming
increase of prices of gas and electricity is announced.
"Meanwhile, the leader of the ultra-nationalist Right Sector
- Dmitry Yarosh - received permission from the government
to take the assets of 23 children's camps, that will be used
now as a training base for the youth of the National Guard,
which will keep order in Ukraine."
It became dangerous to live in the West Ukraine, a lot of
weapons fell into hands of different people. Various gangs
are competing against each other. "The people are afraid to
leave their homes, which has resulted in a huge drop in
turnover in the Polish border bazaars and shops."
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 28, 2014, 6:27:32 AM3/28/14
to
Russian intelligentsia reflects on events around Crimea.
This is not a Putin loyalist or propagandist, this is an
opposition journalist in the opposition anti-Putin media,
a representative of Russia's progressive intellectuals.
<http://echo.msk.ru/blog/troitsky/1288674-echo/>
There was a period when many residents of Russia within
the 'advanced', 'creative' class, the number of liberals
and intellectuals seemed that the West loves us; the most
advanced of advanced sought this love like a pimply
young seeks it from an experienced, tired demi-monde. ..
Then Foreign Minister Kozyrev toyed with the naive idea
that Russia may be admitted to NATO, on equal terms and
on general grounds, and gave up everything he could give,
and bowed to all. The U.S. and NATO led and led their
line, they moved tanks to the east, to very our borders,
they surrounded us with missiles and military bases. With
that they approvingly and condescendingly patted Russia's
cheeks: good, good .. They never considered Russia as a
partner: only opponent, just hushed for a time. ..
Infinite misty veil of lies - 'we are not threatening',
'we are partners', 'we are cooperating', coupled with the
power CNN and other propaganda poisoned many minds in
Russia. A part of the Russian intelligentsia believed in
this vulgar illusion. ..
The reunion with the Crimea has happened, and it's good.
Fog lifted. .. If Russia did not have nuclear weapons,
we would wait for the fate of Serbia, Iraq, Libya and so
on. No doubt about it. .. But they will still seek to
destroy us, or, at least, suppress and humiliate. If
there was no Crimea then they would invent it. ..
The point is not whether Putin is 'right' or 'wrong' in
the situation with the reunification with Crimea. This
is a useless question. More importantly: they - the West
- always kept us as an enemy, even if latent, potential,
but the enemy, and drove their complex hypocritical games.
It is worse than a clear and open confrontation. Now the
mask is dropped, it's much easier to draw conclusions and
to take actions if the brain still exists. .. They have
always wished us every kind of harm. ..
This is not a Putin loyalist or propagandist, this is an
opposition journalist in the opposition anti-Putin media,
a representative of Russia's progressive intellectuals.
<http://echo.msk.ru/blog/troitsky/1288674-echo/>
There was a period when many residents of Russia within
the 'advanced', 'creative' class, the number of liberals
and intellectuals seemed that the West loves us; the most
advanced of advanced sought this love like a pimply
young seeks it from an experienced, tired demi-monde. ..
Then Foreign Minister Kozyrev toyed with the naive idea
that Russia may be admitted to NATO, on equal terms and
on general grounds, and gave up everything he could give,
and bowed to all. The U.S. and NATO led and led their
line, they moved tanks to the east, to very our borders,
they surrounded us with missiles and military bases. With
that they approvingly and condescendingly patted Russia's
cheeks: good, good .. They never considered Russia as a
partner: only opponent, just hushed for a time. ..
Infinite misty veil of lies - 'we are not threatening',
'we are partners', 'we are cooperating', coupled with the
power CNN and other propaganda poisoned many minds in
Russia. A part of the Russian intelligentsia believed in
this vulgar illusion. ..
The reunion with the Crimea has happened, and it's good.
Fog lifted. .. If Russia did not have nuclear weapons,
we would wait for the fate of Serbia, Iraq, Libya and so
on. No doubt about it. .. But they will still seek to
destroy us, or, at least, suppress and humiliate. If
there was no Crimea then they would invent it. ..
The point is not whether Putin is 'right' or 'wrong' in
the situation with the reunification with Crimea. This
is a useless question. More importantly: they - the West
- always kept us as an enemy, even if latent, potential,
but the enemy, and drove their complex hypocritical games.
It is worse than a clear and open confrontation. Now the
mask is dropped, it's much easier to draw conclusions and
to take actions if the brain still exists. .. They have
always wished us every kind of harm. ..
charlie61Ltd
Mar 28, 2014, 7:15:31 AM3/28/14
to
On Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:27:32 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
Tesco have a special offer on tissues at the moment - if that helps.
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
wrote:
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 28, 2014, 11:06:27 AM3/28/14
to
<http://www.countercurrents.org/smith270314.htm>
"What Really Happened In Ukraine? / By Jack A. Smith"
Rather thorough review.
<http://tinyurl.com/p3ojkwy>
"Barack Obama has called on Russia to withdraw its troops
from the Ukraine border and start negotiating."
It would be against democracy.
If Putin started to negotiate with the illegitimate clowns
it would compromise his credibility among Russia electorate,
since the majority in Russia doesn't count them legitimate.
<http://interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=492611>
"Russians say their country should not officially recognize
new Ukraine leaders - poll"
"What Really Happened In Ukraine? / By Jack A. Smith"
Rather thorough review.
<http://tinyurl.com/p3ojkwy>
"Barack Obama has called on Russia to withdraw its troops
from the Ukraine border and start negotiating."
It would be against democracy.
If Putin started to negotiate with the illegitimate clowns
it would compromise his credibility among Russia electorate,
since the majority in Russia doesn't count them legitimate.
<http://interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=492611>
"Russians say their country should not officially recognize
new Ukraine leaders - poll"
Steve
Mar 28, 2014, 6:07:23 PM3/28/14
to
On Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:11:04 -0700 (PDT), trainguard
<barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>Too bad that Steve and Bee Sting have bought them all! That fabulous 'gated condo'....if walls could talk!
>
>Now, if Oleg hasn't crawled back up Putin's backside, he, too, could join them....
stupidity, snips the following exchange...
Canyon: The government schools are in way more trouble than private schools
Worthington: Government schools? What government schools?
Canyon: Errrrr, the public schools are run by governments, you witless moron.
Worthington: An elected School Board is a government?
Canyon: <LOL> Most certainly...
http://www.governor.wa.gov/oeo/system/districts.asp A school
district is a government agency responsible for operating local public
schools.
Worthington: That is a site for Washington State. Not Federal
Government.
Canyon: <LOL> So Barry thinks the Washington State government is wrong
when they say that a school district is a government agency.
Worthington: Yes. Politically, they are talking shit.
Canyon: My, my, an official state government is talking shit? That's Barry's argument?
Worthington: But Steve always uses a a word to define what he wants it to..
Canyon: Actually, the Washington State government defined it..
Worthington: Wrongly.
Canyon: <LOL> Another of Barry's compelling arguments?
Worthington: Washington State may ultimately control education in the
State, but the schools are actually run by locally elected boards.
Canyon: <LOL>...which are themselves, government entities
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/GV/htm/GV.2252.htm
Sec. 2252.001. DEFINITIONS. In this subchapter:
[...]
(2) "Governmental entity" means:
[...]
(B) a municipality, county, public school district, or
special-purpose district or authority;.
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/496/356/
(c) The District Court of Appeal's refusal to entertain § 1983 actions
against state entities such as school boards violates the Supremacy
Clause.
Once again, Worthington's ignorance is front and center.
Worthington: it's the only way he can argue. Notice that Steve is
still cut and pasting...he cannot think or argue for himself....
Canyon: That's from Barry Worthlesston who argues by saying "wrongly."
Canyon: <CHUCKLE> Barry doesn't like my cites that show him to be
ignorant.
Worthington: Which they do not...
Canyon: Barry cannot refute the cites. All he can do is utter
childish bluster.Makes one wonder about how easily one can become a
PhD in Britain.
Canyon: So then, how does Barry Worthlesston explain the U.S. Supreme
Court decisions declaring public schools to be subject to be bound by
the First Amendment which apples only to government entities.
Worthington: Steve is talking shit again...
Canyon: <LOL> Irony anyone? In other words, Barry has no explanation
for the U.S. Supreme Court decisions declaring public schools to be
bound by the First Amendment which apples only to government entities.
<barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>
>Now, if Oleg hasn't crawled back up Putin's backside, he, too, could join them....
>
>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
>>
>> http://www.avast.com
Barry Worthington, in his shameful attempt to hide from his own
>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
>>
>> http://www.avast.com
stupidity, snips the following exchange...
Canyon: The government schools are in way more trouble than private schools
Worthington: Government schools? What government schools?
Canyon: Errrrr, the public schools are run by governments, you witless moron.
Worthington: An elected School Board is a government?
Canyon: <LOL> Most certainly...
http://www.governor.wa.gov/oeo/system/districts.asp A school
district is a government agency responsible for operating local public
schools.
Worthington: That is a site for Washington State. Not Federal
Government.
Canyon: <LOL> So Barry thinks the Washington State government is wrong
when they say that a school district is a government agency.
Worthington: Yes. Politically, they are talking shit.
Canyon: My, my, an official state government is talking shit? That's Barry's argument?
Worthington: But Steve always uses a a word to define what he wants it to..
Canyon: Actually, the Washington State government defined it..
Worthington: Wrongly.
Canyon: <LOL> Another of Barry's compelling arguments?
Worthington: Washington State may ultimately control education in the
State, but the schools are actually run by locally elected boards.
Canyon: <LOL>...which are themselves, government entities
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/GV/htm/GV.2252.htm
Sec. 2252.001. DEFINITIONS. In this subchapter:
[...]
(2) "Governmental entity" means:
[...]
(B) a municipality, county, public school district, or
special-purpose district or authority;.
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/496/356/
(c) The District Court of Appeal's refusal to entertain § 1983 actions
against state entities such as school boards violates the Supremacy
Clause.
Once again, Worthington's ignorance is front and center.
Worthington: it's the only way he can argue. Notice that Steve is
still cut and pasting...he cannot think or argue for himself....
Canyon: That's from Barry Worthlesston who argues by saying "wrongly."
Canyon: <CHUCKLE> Barry doesn't like my cites that show him to be
ignorant.
Worthington: Which they do not...
Canyon: Barry cannot refute the cites. All he can do is utter
childish bluster.Makes one wonder about how easily one can become a
PhD in Britain.
Canyon: So then, how does Barry Worthlesston explain the U.S. Supreme
Court decisions declaring public schools to be subject to be bound by
the First Amendment which apples only to government entities.
Worthington: Steve is talking shit again...
Canyon: <LOL> Irony anyone? In other words, Barry has no explanation
for the U.S. Supreme Court decisions declaring public schools to be
bound by the First Amendment which apples only to government entities.
Mr. B1ack
Mar 29, 2014, 3:04:03 AM3/29/14
to
On Fri, 28 Mar 2014 19:06:27 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
Putin is NOT going to "negotiate". He's considering
the long term ... the power and viability of Russia.
Kissing western ass is NOT how to achieve that.
wrote:
the long term ... the power and viability of Russia.
Kissing western ass is NOT how to achieve that.
Steve
Mar 29, 2014, 7:51:58 AM3/29/14
to
On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 02:34:24 -0700 (PDT), trainguard
<barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>Actually, he isn't. Putin has isolated himself from the Russian 'establishment', and listens only to a small group of 'friends'. He increasingly acts on impulse. Many Russians are very worried. he will either be removed or will preside over the destruction of his country's economy.
>
>Dr. Barry Worthington
<LOL> Worthington likes to pretend that he knows things...
<barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>
>Dr. Barry Worthington
<LOL> Worthington likes to pretend that he knows things...
Anonymous
Mar 29, 2014, 9:25:48 AM3/29/14
to
On 2014-03-28 19:06, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> "What Really Happened In Ukraine? / By Jack A. Smith"
I'll tell you what happened. Putin trying to protect russians in ukraine.
> "What Really Happened In Ukraine? / By Jack A. Smith"
--
Mr. B1ack
Mar 29, 2014, 1:33:24 PM3/29/14
to
On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 07:51:58 -0400, Steve <steven...@yahooooo.com>
wrote:
Apparently Obama's press secretary beams the
latest official propaganda directly into his brain.
Not EVERY Russian likes Putin ... but he remains
quite popular. His popularity has increased now that
he's showing some muscle. Russians have felt that
the world was ignoring and dismissing them ... which
was true ... and they're pleased to see a leader who
will restore the prominence and gravitas they used
to have. "Strength" sells even better in Russia than
in US politics.
wrote:
latest official propaganda directly into his brain.
Not EVERY Russian likes Putin ... but he remains
quite popular. His popularity has increased now that
he's showing some muscle. Russians have felt that
the world was ignoring and dismissing them ... which
was true ... and they're pleased to see a leader who
will restore the prominence and gravitas they used
to have. "Strength" sells even better in Russia than
in US politics.
Steve
Mar 29, 2014, 1:37:50 PM3/29/14
to
On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 13:33:24 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/26/putins-approval-rating-hits-80-percent/
Like most socialists, Worthington confuses his fantasies with reality.
Like most socialists, Worthington confuses his fantasies with reality.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 29, 2014, 2:47:52 PM3/29/14
to
Steve, <news:8dbdj9htsfcq7ss1l...@4ax.com>
is so exaggerated by the Western media is, it 'allows' the
West to ignore interests of people in Russia. But the fact
that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where they
are acting hostilely against a large number of people, but
not just 'against Putin'. <http://is.gd/MnSuwi>
>> Dr. Barry Worthington
>
> <LOL> Worthington likes to pretend that he knows
> things...
The news servers I use don't show Trainguard's messages.
I have read Usenet messages signed as 'Dr. Barry Worthington'
before, they made me believe the person is a kind of troll,
sometimes harmless, sometimes evil.
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 02:34:24 -0700 (PDT), trainguard
> <barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, 29 March 2014 07:04:03 UTC, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2014 19:06:27 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
> <barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, 29 March 2014 07:04:03 UTC, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2014 19:06:27 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>>>> <http://www.countercurrents.org/smith270314.htm>
>>>>
>>>> "What Really Happened In Ukraine? / By Jack A. Smith"
>>>>
>>>> Rather thorough review.
>>>>
>>>> <http://tinyurl.com/p3ojkwy>
>>>> "Barack Obama has called on Russia to withdraw its
>>>> troops from the Ukraine border and start negotiating."
>>>>
>>>> It would be against democracy.
>>>>
>>>> If Putin started to negotiate with the illegitimate
>>>> clowns it would compromise his credibility among
>>>> Russia electorate, since the majority in Russia
>>>> doesn't count them legitimate.
>>>>
>>>> <http://interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=492611>
>>>> "Russians say their country should not officially
>>>> recognize new Ukraine leaders - poll"
>>>
>>> Putin is NOT going to "negotiate". He's considering
>>> the long term ... the power and viability of Russia.
>>> Kissing western ass is NOT how to achieve that.
>>
>> Actually, he isn't. Putin has isolated himself from the
>> Russian 'establishment', and listens only to a small
>> group of 'friends'. He increasingly acts on impulse.
>> Many Russians are very worried. he will either be
>> removed or will preside over the destruction of his
>> country's economy.
Actually, one of the reasons why the idea 'Putin is tyrant'
>>>>
>>>> "What Really Happened In Ukraine? / By Jack A. Smith"
>>>>
>>>> Rather thorough review.
>>>>
>>>> <http://tinyurl.com/p3ojkwy>
>>>> "Barack Obama has called on Russia to withdraw its
>>>> troops from the Ukraine border and start negotiating."
>>>>
>>>> It would be against democracy.
>>>>
>>>> If Putin started to negotiate with the illegitimate
>>>> clowns it would compromise his credibility among
>>>> Russia electorate, since the majority in Russia
>>>> doesn't count them legitimate.
>>>>
>>>> <http://interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=492611>
>>>> "Russians say their country should not officially
>>>> recognize new Ukraine leaders - poll"
>>>
>>> Putin is NOT going to "negotiate". He's considering
>>> the long term ... the power and viability of Russia.
>>> Kissing western ass is NOT how to achieve that.
>>
>> Actually, he isn't. Putin has isolated himself from the
>> Russian 'establishment', and listens only to a small
>> group of 'friends'. He increasingly acts on impulse.
>> Many Russians are very worried. he will either be
>> removed or will preside over the destruction of his
>> country's economy.
is so exaggerated by the Western media is, it 'allows' the
West to ignore interests of people in Russia. But the fact
that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where they
are acting hostilely against a large number of people, but
not just 'against Putin'. <http://is.gd/MnSuwi>
>> Dr. Barry Worthington
>
> <LOL> Worthington likes to pretend that he knows
> things...
I have read Usenet messages signed as 'Dr. Barry Worthington'
before, they made me believe the person is a kind of troll,
sometimes harmless, sometimes evil.
Byker
Mar 29, 2014, 3:15:48 PM3/29/14
to
"Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote in message
news:lh74jl$h8e$1...@os.motzarella.org...
>
> The news servers I use don't show Trainguard's messages.
But apparently they show mine.
> The news servers I use don't show Trainguard's messages.
I've been reading James Dunnigan's "How To Make War" books since the 1980's,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Dunnigan
and his "Strategy Page" http://www.strategypage.com has quite a following (7
million hits a month), so when he talks, people listen
http://jimdunnigan.com/
So what's your take on Russia-is-a-paper-tiger?
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Ukraine-Is-No-Place-For-A-Paper-Tiger-3-24-2014.asp ?
Siri Cruz
Mar 29, 2014, 3:25:29 PM3/29/14
to
In article <lh74jl$h8e$1...@os.motzarella.org>, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
> that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
> coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where they
What precisely is a 'nationalist coup'?
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
wrote:
> that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
> coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where they
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Steve
Mar 29, 2014, 3:28:06 PM3/29/14
to
On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 22:47:52 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
I doubt the interests of people in Russia is served by Putin's control
over the media.
>that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
>coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where they
>are acting hostilely against a large number of people, but
>not just 'against Putin'. <http://is.gd/MnSuwi>
>
>>> Dr. Barry Worthington
>>
>> <LOL> Worthington likes to pretend that he knows
>> things...
>
>The news servers I use don't show Trainguard's messages.
>
>I have read Usenet messages signed as 'Dr. Barry Worthington'
>before, they made me believe the person is a kind of troll,
>sometimes harmless, sometimes evil.
Actually, he's pretty harmless. He pretends to know things that he's
obviously ignorant about.
wrote:
over the media.
>that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
>coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where they
>are acting hostilely against a large number of people, but
>not just 'against Putin'. <http://is.gd/MnSuwi>
>
>>> Dr. Barry Worthington
>>
>> <LOL> Worthington likes to pretend that he knows
>> things...
>
>The news servers I use don't show Trainguard's messages.
>
>I have read Usenet messages signed as 'Dr. Barry Worthington'
>before, they made me believe the person is a kind of troll,
>sometimes harmless, sometimes evil.
obviously ignorant about.
Steve
Mar 29, 2014, 4:08:19 PM3/29/14
to
On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:42:25 -0700 (PDT), trainguard
<barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>And when the castle of cards collapses?
>
>(Perhaps he is channeling Potemkin!)
>
>Dr. Barry Worthington
Putin's popularity in Russia has spiked upwards to 80%.
<barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote:
>
>(Perhaps he is channeling Potemkin!)
>
>Dr. Barry Worthington
Putin's popularity in Russia has spiked upwards to 80%.
Byker
Mar 29, 2014, 4:32:08 PM3/29/14
to
"trainguard" <barry_wo...@sky.com> wrote in message
news:1a29b0ea-d00a-4e3c...@googlegroups.com...
>
> (Perhaps he is channeling Potemkin!)
Maybe we'll be treated to yet another stampede down the Steps of Odessa
> (Perhaps he is channeling Potemkin!)
Byker
Mar 29, 2014, 4:36:08 PM3/29/14
to
"Steve" <steven...@yahooooo.com> wrote in message
news:hj9ej95pg4afo8llg...@4ax.com...
Boyar family that he mostly took out his wrath on.
Russians have been living under autocrats for 1,000 years. Russia has
returned to police state ways, along with traditional threatening attitudes
towards neighbors. Rather than being run by corrupt communist bureaucrats,
the country is now dominated by corrupt businessmen, gangsters and
self-serving government officials. The semi-free economy is more productive
than the centrally controlled communist one, but that just provides more
money to steal. A rebellion against the new dictatorship is brewing, showing
that enough democratic impulses remain to shape government and push reform.
But for now, most Russians want economic and personal security and are
willing to tolerate a police state to get it.
news:hj9ej95pg4afo8llg...@4ax.com...
>
> Putin's popularity in Russia has spiked upwards to 80%.
Ivan IV (the "Terrible") had a lot of popular support too. It was the royal
> Putin's popularity in Russia has spiked upwards to 80%.
Boyar family that he mostly took out his wrath on.
Russians have been living under autocrats for 1,000 years. Russia has
returned to police state ways, along with traditional threatening attitudes
towards neighbors. Rather than being run by corrupt communist bureaucrats,
the country is now dominated by corrupt businessmen, gangsters and
self-serving government officials. The semi-free economy is more productive
than the centrally controlled communist one, but that just provides more
money to steal. A rebellion against the new dictatorship is brewing, showing
that enough democratic impulses remain to shape government and push reform.
But for now, most Russians want economic and personal security and are
willing to tolerate a police state to get it.
Byker
Mar 29, 2014, 4:36:55 PM3/29/14
to
"Anonymous" <nor...@breaka.net> wrote in message
news:ec99025632b5cced...@breaka.net...
news:ec99025632b5cced...@breaka.net...
> On 2014-03-28 19:06, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
>> "What Really Happened In Ukraine? / By Jack A. Smith"
> I'll tell you what happened. Putin trying to protect russians in ukraine.
Next he'll be "protecting" russophones in the Baltic states
>
>> "What Really Happened In Ukraine? / By Jack A. Smith"
> I'll tell you what happened. Putin trying to protect russians in ukraine.
Heffalump
Mar 29, 2014, 4:47:20 PM3/29/14
to
in Kharkiv.
Invading Crimea on that basis creates a new norm.
I read that a Russian national had his wallet stolen in a New York bar a
couple of weeks ago. What is your hero doing about that, I wonder...
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 29, 2014, 5:20:05 PM3/29/14
to
Byker, <news:0dSdnSkFefp_hqrO...@earthlink.com>
in the eastern Ukrainian territory may be possible in the
case of escalating of violence of the far right militants
there. In the first days after the coup there was real risk
of such a development. The deployment of Russian troops near
the Ukrainian border is the main reason why the violence did
not happen in scale which could happen otherwise.
In think, the current labored hysteria in the Western media
'let's prevent Putin from invading Ukraine' is artificial,
it's nothing but a way to save ugly moral face of Mr Obama
and other Western politicians, to allow them to pretend to
be proud of how they could stop evil Putin, and to divert
public attention from the fact that these freaks sponsored
the overthrow of democratically elected power in Ukraine.
>> The news servers I use don't show Trainguard's messages.
>
> But apparently they show mine.
>
> I've been reading James Dunnigan's "How To Make War"
> books since the 1980's,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Dunnigan
>
> and his "Strategy Page" http://www.strategypage.com has
> quite a following (7 million hits a month), so when he talks, people listen
> http://jimdunnigan.com/
>
> So what's your take on Russia-is-a-paper-tiger?
> http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Ukraine-Is-No-Place-For-A-Paper-Tiger-3-24-2014.asp
> ?
Russian officials made it clear that use of military force
>
> But apparently they show mine.
>
> I've been reading James Dunnigan's "How To Make War"
> books since the 1980's,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Dunnigan
>
> and his "Strategy Page" http://www.strategypage.com has
> quite a following (7 million hits a month), so when he talks, people listen
> http://jimdunnigan.com/
>
> So what's your take on Russia-is-a-paper-tiger?
> http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Ukraine-Is-No-Place-For-A-Paper-Tiger-3-24-2014.asp
> ?
in the eastern Ukrainian territory may be possible in the
case of escalating of violence of the far right militants
there. In the first days after the coup there was real risk
of such a development. The deployment of Russian troops near
the Ukrainian border is the main reason why the violence did
not happen in scale which could happen otherwise.
In think, the current labored hysteria in the Western media
'let's prevent Putin from invading Ukraine' is artificial,
it's nothing but a way to save ugly moral face of Mr Obama
and other Western politicians, to allow them to pretend to
be proud of how they could stop evil Putin, and to divert
public attention from the fact that these freaks sponsored
the overthrow of democratically elected power in Ukraine.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 29, 2014, 5:15:45 PM3/29/14
to
>> (Perhaps he is channeling Potemkin!)
Btw, the legend about the Potyomkin villages is a fake,
composed at the time by one of Western (iirc French)
Russophobes who was very jealous of Russia's success
against the Ottomans. There is detailed historical
research about how it became popular legend. The fake
is in the same line with the recent BBC's 'small island'
and 'twin toilet' creative fake news.
Regular invention of deliberate fakes like that is a
clear symptom of the well-established Western jealousy
and hatred against the Russians.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 29, 2014, 5:16:59 PM3/29/14
to
Siri Cruz,
<news:chine.bleu-329D5...@news.eternal-september.org>
strong nationalist agenda in favor of one large
enough group of people, and that are going to
ignore interests of another large enough group of
people that don't share the agenda.
<news:chine.bleu-329D5...@news.eternal-september.org>
> In article <lh74jl$h8e$1...@os.motzarella.org>, "Oleg
> Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>
>> that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
>> coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where
>> they
>
> What precisely is a 'nationalist coup'?
A coup committed by a group of people that have
> Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>
>> that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
>> coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where
>> they
>
> What precisely is a 'nationalist coup'?
strong nationalist agenda in favor of one large
enough group of people, and that are going to
ignore interests of another large enough group of
people that don't share the agenda.
Heffalump
Mar 29, 2014, 5:33:47 PM3/29/14
to
On 29/03/2014 21:16, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Siri Cruz,
> <news:chine.bleu-329D5...@news.eternal-september.org>
>> In article <lh74jl$h8e$1...@os.motzarella.org>, "Oleg
>> Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>>
>>> that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
>>> coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where
>>> they
>>
>> What precisely is a 'nationalist coup'?
>
> A coup committed by a group of people that have strong nationalist
> agenda in favor of one large enough group of people, and that are going
> to ignore interests of another large enough group of people that don't
> share the agenda.
In other words, a nationalist coup involves reading tea leaves and
> Siri Cruz,
> <news:chine.bleu-329D5...@news.eternal-september.org>
>> In article <lh74jl$h8e$1...@os.motzarella.org>, "Oleg
>> Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
>>
>>> that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
>>> coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where
>>> they
>>
>> What precisely is a 'nationalist coup'?
>
> A coup committed by a group of people that have strong nationalist
> agenda in favor of one large enough group of people, and that are going
> to ignore interests of another large enough group of people that don't
> share the agenda.
deciding that a large enough group are going to have their interests
ignored.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 29, 2014, 5:51:32 PM3/29/14
to
Heffalump, <news:53373c38$0$36681$862e...@ngroups.net>
The democratic procedures, not a coup d'etat, is
what's intended to properly take into account the
interests of all different groups.
> On 29/03/2014 21:16, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>> Siri Cruz,
>> Siri Cruz,
>>> What precisely is a 'nationalist coup'?
>>
>> A coup committed by a group of people that have strong
>> nationalist agenda in favor of one large enough group of
>> people, and that are going to ignore interests of
>> another large enough group of people that don't share
>> the agenda.
>
> In other words, a nationalist coup involves reading tea
> leaves and deciding that a large enough group are going
> to have their interests ignored.
Your feeble effort of sarcasm looks silly a bit.
>>
>> A coup committed by a group of people that have strong
>> nationalist agenda in favor of one large enough group of
>> people, and that are going to ignore interests of
>> another large enough group of people that don't share
>> the agenda.
>
> In other words, a nationalist coup involves reading tea
> leaves and deciding that a large enough group are going
> to have their interests ignored.
The democratic procedures, not a coup d'etat, is
what's intended to properly take into account the
interests of all different groups.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 29, 2014, 5:51:50 PM3/29/14
to
Steve, <news:kk7ej99f6b7sqivpo...@4ax.com>
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 22:47:52 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov"
>>>>>> If Putin started to negotiate with the illegitimate
>>>>>> clowns it would compromise his credibility among
>>>>>> Russia electorate, since the majority in Russia
>>>>>> doesn't count them legitimate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=492611>
>>>>>> "Russians say their country should not officially
>>>>>> recognize new Ukraine leaders - poll"
>>>>>
>>>>> Putin is NOT going to "negotiate". He's considering
>>>>> the long term ... the power and viability of
>>>>> Russia. Kissing western ass is NOT how to achieve
>>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, he isn't. Putin has isolated himself from the
>>>> Russian 'establishment', and listens only to a small
>>>> group of 'friends'. He increasingly acts on impulse.
>>>> Many Russians are very worried. he will either be
>>>> removed or will preside over the destruction of his
>>>> country's economy.
>>
>> Actually, one of the reasons why the idea 'Putin is
>> tyrant' is so exaggerated by the Western media is, it
>> 'allows' the West to ignore interests of people in
>> Russia. But the fact
>
> I doubt the interests of people in Russia is served by
> Putin's control over the media.
How does this control exactly look like?
>>>>>> clowns it would compromise his credibility among
>>>>>> Russia electorate, since the majority in Russia
>>>>>> doesn't count them legitimate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=492611>
>>>>>> "Russians say their country should not officially
>>>>>> recognize new Ukraine leaders - poll"
>>>>>
>>>>> Putin is NOT going to "negotiate". He's considering
>>>>> the long term ... the power and viability of
>>>>> Russia. Kissing western ass is NOT how to achieve
>>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, he isn't. Putin has isolated himself from the
>>>> Russian 'establishment', and listens only to a small
>>>> group of 'friends'. He increasingly acts on impulse.
>>>> Many Russians are very worried. he will either be
>>>> removed or will preside over the destruction of his
>>>> country's economy.
>>
>> Actually, one of the reasons why the idea 'Putin is
>> tyrant' is so exaggerated by the Western media is, it
>> 'allows' the West to ignore interests of people in
>> Russia. But the fact
>
> I doubt the interests of people in Russia is served by
> Putin's control over the media.
Oleg Smirnov
Mar 29, 2014, 6:18:16 PM3/29/14
to
Byker, <news:1ZudnSk_v_Mrs6rO...@earthlink.com>
> The
> semi-free economy is more productive than the centrally
> controlled communist one, but that just provides more
> money to steal. A rebellion against the new dictatorship
> is brewing, showing that enough democratic impulses
> remain to shape government and push reform. But for now,
> most Russians want economic and personal security and are
> willing to tolerate a police state to get it.
All that is because the Russians are inferior subhumans.
They certainly need external management and supervision.
Hitler's attempt was not successful but let's keep trying.
<http://is.gd/MnSuwi>
>> Putin's popularity in Russia has spiked upwards to 80%.
>
> Ivan IV (the "Terrible") had a lot of popular support
> too. It was the royal Boyar family that he mostly took
> out his wrath on.
>
> Russians have been living under autocrats for 1,000
> years. Russia has returned to police state ways, along
> with traditional threatening attitudes towards neighbors.
> Rather than being run by corrupt communist bureaucrats,
> the country is now dominated by corrupt businessmen,
> gangsters and self-serving government officials.
You have forgot to mention the drunk bears in the streets.
>
> Ivan IV (the "Terrible") had a lot of popular support
> too. It was the royal Boyar family that he mostly took
> out his wrath on.
>
> Russians have been living under autocrats for 1,000
> years. Russia has returned to police state ways, along
> with traditional threatening attitudes towards neighbors.
> Rather than being run by corrupt communist bureaucrats,
> the country is now dominated by corrupt businessmen,
> gangsters and self-serving government officials.
> The
> semi-free economy is more productive than the centrally
> controlled communist one, but that just provides more
> money to steal. A rebellion against the new dictatorship
> is brewing, showing that enough democratic impulses
> remain to shape government and push reform. But for now,
> most Russians want economic and personal security and are
> willing to tolerate a police state to get it.
They certainly need external management and supervision.
Hitler's attempt was not successful but let's keep trying.
<http://is.gd/MnSuwi>
Siri Cruz
Mar 29, 2014, 6:22:54 PM3/29/14
to
In article <lh7dfh$lil$2...@os.motzarella.org>, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
Thank goodness though. I thought you were going to compare Ukrainians to NSDAP
and pretend this was the Great Patriotic War all over.
wrote:
> Siri Cruz,
> <news:chine.bleu-329D5...@news.eternal-september.org>
> > In article <lh74jl$h8e$1...@os.motzarella.org>, "Oleg
> > Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
> >
> >> that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
> >> coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where
> >> they
> >
> > What precisely is a 'nationalist coup'?
>
> A coup committed by a group of people that have
> strong nationalist agenda in favor of one large
> enough group of people, and that are going to
> ignore interests of another large enough group of
> people that don't share the agenda.
So Ukraine was at fault for considerring the views of Ukrainians over Russians.
> Siri Cruz,
> <news:chine.bleu-329D5...@news.eternal-september.org>
> > In article <lh74jl$h8e$1...@os.motzarella.org>, "Oleg
> > Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru> wrote:
> >
> >> that the Western politicians supported the nationalist
> >> coup in Ukraine clearly places them in position where
> >> they
> >
> > What precisely is a 'nationalist coup'?
>
> A coup committed by a group of people that have
> strong nationalist agenda in favor of one large
> enough group of people, and that are going to
> ignore interests of another large enough group of
> people that don't share the agenda.
Thank goodness though. I thought you were going to compare Ukrainians to NSDAP
and pretend this was the Great Patriotic War all over.
Siri Cruz
Mar 29, 2014, 6:30:29 PM3/29/14
to
In article <lh7f9b$2lk$1...@os.motzarella.org>, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
So having your president running away because he might be charged with murder is
a coup d'etat, but importing soldiers to occupy government buildings is
democracy. Check. I just want to make sure we're understand each other's
terminology.
You see I thought Putin was just being an imperialist asshole like Reagan.
Since neither Mubarak nor Morsi ran away, it's clear whatever Egypt is doing is
not a coup d'etat. Since Bashar isn't running away (yet) does affect whether
Syria is having a civil war?
wrote:
a coup d'etat, but importing soldiers to occupy government buildings is
democracy. Check. I just want to make sure we're understand each other's
terminology.
You see I thought Putin was just being an imperialist asshole like Reagan.
Since neither Mubarak nor Morsi ran away, it's clear whatever Egypt is doing is
not a coup d'etat. Since Bashar isn't running away (yet) does affect whether
Syria is having a civil war?
Siri Cruz
Mar 29, 2014, 6:31:23 PM3/29/14
to
In article <lh7dfh$lil$1...@os.motzarella.org>, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
I know understand why you're named after vodka.
wrote:
Mr. B1ack
Mar 29, 2014, 6:37:33 PM3/29/14
to
On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 02:18:16 +0400, "Oleg Smirnov" <ve...@gde.ru>
wrote:
Heh, heh ... just because businessmen and politicians
in the USA and western europe use more sophisticated
methods for hiding their corruption and authoritarianism
certaintly does not mean it doesn't exist. Likely the same
kinds of things in the same degree as in Russia. Mr. Byker
has been deceived, lulled into complacency, blinded to
the real goings-on ... just as he's supposed to be.
In time, Russians will also become more sophisticated
in hiding the dirty facts of real business and politics and
the population there will come to believe they have a
relatively "clean" state of affairs.
People WANT to believe their government and businessmen
are honest and dedicated to the national good. Encouraging
this willful blindness seems relatively easy, making it simple
to convince people that the occasional revelation of what's
really going on is a anomoly, nothing very threatening, just
a few rotten apples in the proverbial barrel. A few symbolic
arrests, maybe a show trial or two, and people will believe
the problems are fixed and eagerly go back into their
pipedream world.
wrote:
in the USA and western europe use more sophisticated
methods for hiding their corruption and authoritarianism
certaintly does not mean it doesn't exist. Likely the same
kinds of things in the same degree as in Russia. Mr. Byker
has been deceived, lulled into complacency, blinded to
the real goings-on ... just as he's supposed to be.
In time, Russians will also become more sophisticated
in hiding the dirty facts of real business and politics and
the population there will come to believe they have a
relatively "clean" state of affairs.
People WANT to believe their government and businessmen
are honest and dedicated to the national good. Encouraging
this willful blindness seems relatively easy, making it simple
to convince people that the occasional revelation of what's
really going on is a anomoly, nothing very threatening, just
a few rotten apples in the proverbial barrel. A few symbolic
arrests, maybe a show trial or two, and people will believe
the problems are fixed and eagerly go back into their
pipedream world.
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