ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF

[Ray Keller]

ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF
Sunday, July 21st, 2013
The firearms and ballistics evidence in this case was very important, one
reason why the Kel-Tec PF9 9mm death weapon was first and foremost in the
minds of journalists reporting on Eric Holder's recent decision to have all
evidence in this case held pending Federal investigation (again). One of the
area newspapers reported in March that the death weapon was found with a
spent casing still in the chamber. This would have been consistent with
someone's hand grabbing the gun and retarding the slide mechanism at the
moment of the shot, and I surmised as much in the one blog entry I made on it
at that time, prior to being contacted by the then-defense team and
confidentiality issues kicking in from then on.

It turned out that this was not the case. The officers who recovered the
evidence unloaded the death weapon. The spent casing from the one shot fired
in the incident was recovered from the ground on which it had ejected, and
another live round was ejected from the firing chamber after the officer
removed the magazine. All eight cartridges, the gun's full capacity, were
accounted for. The pistol had functioned normally, as designed.

Prosecutor John Guy, in his dramatic opening statement, made a big deal out
of the fact that Zimmerman carried the Kel-Tec with a live round in the
chamber, as if this implied malice and a man looking to kill someone. Over in
CNN Headline News Land, Nancy Grace took up the same cry. Zimmerman's
after-the-assault attackers even made a big deal out of the fact that he had
a pistol with no dedicated manual safety. Ms. Grace claimed that he carried
it with the safety off, and when a friend of Zimmerman's was on her show and
told her the gun HAD NO safety catch per se, she yelled at him that he was
wrong, she knew all about Kel-Tec PF9s, and implied that Zimmerman must have
flicked the safety off beforehand. (Premeditation, don't cha know?)

Of course, the PF9 pistol DOESN'T have a safety catch. Ms. Grace apparently
Googled "Kel-Tec PF9" and mistook the slide lock lever for a safety lever.
Did any of you folks ever hear her apologize to Zimmerman's friend, who was
right when she was wrong? Let me know, 'cause I must have missed it if she
did.

For perspective, very few American police officers carry guns with manual
safety levers. The most popular police pistols don't have them, including the
Glock and the SIG, the two most widely used. The Smith & Wesson Military &
Police has an optional ambidextrous thumb safety, but most police departments
order those guns without that feature, and the same is true for the majority
of defensive pistols bought these days by America's armed citizens. The old
style service revolver didn't come with a safety either.

Like those revolvers, semiautomatics such as the Kel-Tec are normally carried
ready to fire with a simple pull of the trigger, i.e., with a round
chambered.

Another element I warned O'Mara and West about back in second quarter 2012
was that they could expect the prosecution to attribute malice to Zimmerman
for loading with hollow points. Such ammunition is standard in virtually
every police department in our nation, and is the overwhelming (and logical)
choice of armed citizens. The expanding bullet is less likely to ricochet,
and it is more likely to stop inside the body of the offender instead of
passing through to strike an unseen bystander. It also, historically, stops
gunfights faster, saving the lives endangered by the attacker who had to be
shot. Finally, for that latter reason, it reduces the number of wounds the
offender must suffer before he stops forcing good people to shoot him. Except
for the ricochet factor, all of those elements were present in the
Zimmerman>Martin shooting. The prosecution didn't harp on this as much as I
expected, but prosecutor Richard Mantei did bring it up:
http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/george-zimmerman-hollow-points-and-reality/ .

Fortunately, the defense covered this superbly. They did so with the
testimony of material witness Mark Osterman, the Federal Air Marshal who
trained Zimmerman, told him to get a double action only pistol with no manual
safety and carry it with a round in the chamber. His personal knowledge
carried more weight than any outside expert could ever have brought to the
game, but defense expert Dennis Root did a good job of batting clean-up and
filling in other points. Together, they tanked the bogus allegations of the
prosecution in this case insofar as guns, ammunition, and malice or
premeditation that could be ascribed to either.

The take-away is not to avoid such unmeritorious courtroom attacks by
carrying a .25 auto with an empty chamber. The take-away is, be able to
logically explain your choice of gun and method of carry. The defense did
exactly this, to their credit.

[CS]

"Ray Keller" wrote in message news:9kgHt.17220$Aw4....@fx02.iad...

ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF
Sunday, July 21st, 2013
The firearms and ballistics evidence in this case was very important, one
reason why the Kel-Tec PF9 9mm

<snip>

The take-away is not to avoid such unmeritorious courtroom attacks by
carrying a .25 auto with an empty chamber. The take-away is, be able to
logically explain your choice of gun and method of carry. The defense did
exactly this, to their credit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Not sure why he went with the Kel-Tec. It's cheap (that's probably why),
but it has a seriously shitty trigger, and while it is designed primarily as
a concealed carry gun, it has a marginally useful accessory rail, adding
bulk, weight, and extra edges. I've heard it is also a bit picky about
being clean.

Zimmerman isn't exactly a tiny guy, so a larger, less crappy handgun could
easily be concealed.

Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact Glock
for deep concealed carry, and either a Glock or Sig for jacket/baggy clothes
weather.

The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun fight but
making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.

CS

[Tom Gardner]

Don't you just love to hear all about firearms from people that don't
have a clue?

[RD Sandman]

"CS" <dont...@sears.com> wrote in
news:3Lydnd48uuyzcnDM...@supernews.com:

> "Ray Keller" wrote in message news:9kgHt.17220$Aw4....@fx02.iad...
>
>
> ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF
> Sunday, July 21st, 2013
> The firearms and ballistics evidence in this case was very important,
> one reason why the Kel-Tec PF9 9mm
> <snip>
> The take-away is not to avoid such unmeritorious courtroom attacks by
> carrying a .25 auto with an empty chamber. The take-away is, be able
> to logically explain your choice of gun and method of carry. The
> defense did exactly this, to their credit.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Not sure why he went with the Kel-Tec. It's cheap (that's probably
> why), but it has a seriously shitty trigger, and while it is designed
> primarily as a concealed carry gun, it has a marginally useful
> accessory rail, adding bulk, weight, and extra edges. I've heard it
> is also a bit picky about being clean.
>
> Zimmerman isn't exactly a tiny guy, so a larger, less crappy handgun
> could easily be concealed.
>
> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact
> Glock for deep concealed carry,

Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They
tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness of a
small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a Kahr
unless you are interested simply in capacity.

and either a Glock or Sig for
> jacket/baggy clothes weather.
>
> The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun
> fight but making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.

One advantage of a Glock is that the local PD and Highway Patrol most
likely uses them although in a .40S&W.


--
Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman

Old Air Force adage..The only time you have too
much fuel is when you are on fire!!

[Tom Gardner]

S&W Airweight in .357. If you need more than 5 rds, you're fucked anyway.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:22:43 -0500, RD Sandman
<rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> wrote:

>>
>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact
>> Glock for deep concealed carry,
>
>Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They
>tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness of a
>small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a Kahr
>unless you are interested simply in capacity.

Im not a big Glock fan..I dont own any if that indicates it...the 26
and 27 tuck away pretty easily.

Lots of my buds carry them here in Hot Dry places like California high
desert..under tshirts.


--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

[Gunner Asch]

Colt Detective Special...a ounce or two more, but one more round just
for luck. My 2nd place favorite tuckable, just behind the AMT DAO 45

Tom.. check one out (DAO 45) next time you see one at a gun show or
shop...lay it on top of the Airweight. Tucks away nicely..and holds
5 in the mag and one up the spout. Stainless, double action only and
no sharp edges.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=amt+dao+45&oq=Amt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrdpkF4j2G0


Looks like High Standard bought the rights and is making them again

http://highstandard.com/index.php/customers/38-weapon-products/weapons/145-recommended-products-for-private-security

[Ted Dwane]

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
news:FsudndxPfJobA3PM...@giganews.com...

###
Unless there are 6 bandits. :/

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

RD Sandman <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> fired this volley in
news:XnsA2064B140...@216.196.121.131:

> Old Air Force adage..The only time you have too
> much fuel is when you are on fire!!
>

OR taking off in muggy weather at 130% of MGW.

Lloyd

[Gunner Asch]

Averages....got to keep them in mind.

And keep a spare speedloader/magazine in your pocket or on your belt.

2.5 rds fired in a gunfight..is the average.

Toms gun doubles the average.

[pyotr filipivich]

"Ted Dwane" <Muford...@bass.gov> on Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:49:03
-0400 typed in misc.survivalism the following:

You can always find your self completely outgunned.

My brother knew the guy who had been leaving Addis Abba at the
time of the Marxist coup. Armed with a 357 revolver, he figured he
was okay. Till the first road block. Where the guy who stopped the
bus had an AK47. With the 30 round mag in the well, and at lest one
more 'handy'. As did his buddy, as well as their buddies. In short
there were more of them than he had loaded rounds - and they all had
thirty rounds at hand in automatic rifles.
Yes, an armed society is a polite society. You dare not be
impolite, because then you will have a tremendous amount of paperwork
to fill out - if you are in a paperwork filling and filing society.
--
pyotr filipivich.
Just about the time you finally see light at the end of the tunnel,
you find out it's a Government Project to build more tunnel.

[RD Sandman]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:7o8tu8l9cftbfb19l...@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:22:43 -0500, RD Sandman
> <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a
>>> subcompact Glock for deep concealed carry,
>>
>>Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida.
>>They tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness
>>of a small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a
>>Kahr unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>
> Im not a big Glock fan..I dont own any if that indicates it...the 26
> and 27 tuck away pretty easily.

I have owned several of them.

> Lots of my buds carry them here in Hot Dry places like California high
> desert..under tshirts.

If you will back up a few lines you will see that I said, "Glocks don't

conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They tend to print

under just a T-shirt." I spent 15 years there, had 5 or 6 Glocks.
Florida is NOT a hot, dry place like California high desert. It is a
hot, steamy one. I currently live in Arizona (which is hot and dry
except in monsoon season) and own a 23 and a 27.

[Tom Gardner]

A buddy has one and I've played with it...me like! But, a lot less can
go wrong with a wheel gun and it's so simple and it works every time
unless you forget to load it or have a FTF. My first love is wheel
guns, especially S&W's (can't afford a Colt).

[Tom Gardner]

On 7/23/2013 11:38 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:22:43 -0500, RD Sandman
> <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact
>>> Glock for deep concealed carry,
>>
>> Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They
>> tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness of a
>> small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a Kahr
>> unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>
> Im not a big Glock fan..I dont own any if that indicates it...the 26
> and 27 tuck away pretty easily.
>
> Lots of my buds carry them here in Hot Dry places like California high
> desert..under tshirts.
>

I hate their trigger groups and the polygonal barrel, unless you use FMJ's.

[ex-PFC Wintergreen]

On 7/23/2013 3:47 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:7o8tu8l9cftbfb19l...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:22:43 -0500, RD Sandman
>> <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a
>>>> subcompact Glock for deep concealed carry,
>>>
>>> Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida.
>>> They tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness
>>> of a small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a
>>> Kahr unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>>
>> Im not a big Glock fan..I dont own any if that indicates it...the 26
>> and 27 tuck away pretty easily.
>
> I have owned several of them.
>
>> Lots of my buds carry them here in Hot Dry places like California high
>> desert..under tshirts.
>
>
> If you will back up a few lines you will see that I said, "Glocks don't
> conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They tend to print
> under just a T-shirt." I spent 15 years there, had 5 or 6 Glocks.
> Florida is NOT a hot, dry place like California high desert.

gummer doesn't live in the high desert. He lives in Taft, at an
elevation of about 900 feet. Towns in the high desert - Palmdale
(2600'), Lancaster (2400'), Victorville (2700'), Barstow (2200') - are
all significantly above 2000 feet.

[RD Sandman]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in
news:XnsA206787712F6Ell...@216.168.3.70:

Yuuuukkkk, believe it. I hate it when you are over fully loaded and the
plane just rolls and rolls and rolls with virtually no sign of lift and
you are quickly running out of runway. It is just the opposite coming
back empty and that hot, hot runway means you really cannot just drop the
plane on the runway, you have fly it all the way down to the ground.

We used to joke that the reason B-52s took off with a gaggle of KC-135s
is that they only had enough fuel to got off the ground and rendezvouz.
If you wished to get off the ground with a full load of bombs and fuel,
you had to taxi from Edwards AFB to Cincinatti...... Of course, if
weather came in and socked your base, you could alternate in Saipan.

--
Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman

[Tom Gardner]

Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, THUD! No problem!

[RD Sandman]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:ar8tu8pj1veo8m94r...@4ax.com:

Detective Special......excellent choice. One more round than my SP-101
in .357 although I often carry with .38 spl +P+. I have not used or
looked at an AMT DAO 45....although I will next opportunity.

[RD Sandman]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:f1btu8p6qtvr2b19d...@4ax.com:

Yep.....Rule of 3.....3 shots fired, 3 yards, 3 seconds duration.

[Tom Gardner]

What are the odds that those 2.5 rounds are .22's?

[Tom Gardner]

Take your time, place your shots.

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <XnsA2064B140...@216.196.121.131>, RD the Sandman
<rdsa...@comcast.net> says...

>
> "CS" <dont...@sears.com> wrote in
> news:3Lydnd48uuyzcnDM...@supernews.com:
>
>> "Ray Keller" wrote in message news:9kgHt.17220$Aw4....@fx02.iad...
>>
>> ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF
>> Sunday, July 21st, 2013
>> The firearms and ballistics evidence in this case was very important,
>> one reason why the Kel-Tec PF9 9mm
>> <snip>
>> The take-away is not to avoid such unmeritorious courtroom attacks by
>> carrying a .25 auto with an empty chamber. The take-away is, be able
>> to logically explain your choice of gun and method of carry. The
>> defense did exactly this, to their credit.
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Not sure why he went with the Kel-Tec. It's cheap (that's probably
>> why), but it has a seriously shitty trigger, and while it is designed
>> primarily as a concealed carry gun, it has a marginally useful
>> accessory rail, adding bulk, weight, and extra edges. I've heard it
>> is also a bit picky about being clean.
>>
>> Zimmerman isn't exactly a tiny guy, so a larger, less crappy handgun
>> could easily be concealed.
>>
>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact

>> Glock for deep concealed carry...

>
> Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida.
> They tend to print under just a T-shirt.
> Besides it is the thickness of a small brick even in 9mm just like
> any other double stack.
> Try a Kahr unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>

Walther PPS - available in both 9 MikeMike and .40 Short and Wimpy:
http://www.waltherarms.com/products/handguns/pps/
>
>> ...and either a Glock or Sig for jacket/baggy clothes weather.

>>
>> The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun
>> fight but making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.
>
> One advantage of a Glock is that the local PD and Highway Patrol most
> likely uses them although in a .40S&W.
>

TXDPS has carried the SIG P226 in .357 SIG ever since the round came out.

[LONG, but interesting, story about the machinations behind that. <g>]

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <XnsA206787712F6Ell...@216.168.3.70>, "Lloyd E.
Sponenburgh" says...
>
> RD Sandman <rdsa...@comcast.net> fired this volley in

> news:XnsA2064B140...@216.196.121.131:
>
>> Old Air Force adage..The only time you have too
>> much fuel is when you are on fire!!
>
> OR taking off in muggy weather at 130% of MGW.
>

How did the Loadmaster let that happen?!? ;)

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Johnny Johnson <TopCo...@yahoo.com> fired this volley in
news:MPG.2c58cae17...@news.eternal-september.org:

> id the Loadmaster let that happen?!? ;)

WhenTF did he NOT? (naw... they were pretty good, mostly) We had to
'pack them in' sometimes over in 'Nam, even if we knew we'd use up ALL
the PSP to get in the air. That wasn't usually the problem. Going out
real low over the forest was the problem.


Lloyd

[bigdog]

On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 10:22:43 AM UTC-4, RD Sandman wrote:
> "CS" <dont...@sears.com> wrote in
>
> news:3Lydnd48uuyzcnDM...@supernews.com:
>
> > "Ray Keller" wrote in message news:9kgHt.17220$Aw4....@fx02.iad...
>
> > ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF
>
> > Sunday, July 21st, 2013
>
> > The firearms and ballistics evidence in this case was very important,
> > one reason why the Kel-Tec PF9 9mm
>
> > <snip>
>
> > The take-away is not to avoid such unmeritorious courtroom attacks by
> > carrying a .25 auto with an empty chamber. The take-away is, be able
> > to logically explain your choice of gun and method of carry. The
> > defense did exactly this, to their credit.
>

> > Not sure why he went with the Kel-Tec. It's cheap (that's probably
> > why), but it has a seriously shitty trigger, and while it is designed
> > primarily as a concealed carry gun, it has a marginally useful
> > accessory rail, adding bulk, weight, and extra edges. I've heard it
> > is also a bit picky about being clean.
>
> > Zimmerman isn't exactly a tiny guy, so a larger, less crappy handgun
> > could easily be concealed.
>
> > Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact
> > Glock for deep concealed carry,
>

I would never keep a live round in the chamber of a Glock. Too easy to accidently discharge when drawing.

>
> Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They
> tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness of a
> small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a Kahr
> unless you are interested simply in capacity.
> and either a Glock or Sig for
> jacket/baggy clothes weather.
>

I got a Ruger compact .380 for t-shirt and shorts weather. Conceals easily in the pocket of a baggy pair of short. Not the best choice for a gun fight, but better than nothing. It's difficult to aim but could be an effective up close and personal weapon.

> > The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun
> > fight but making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.
>
> One advantage of a Glock is that the local PD and Highway Patrol most
> likely uses them although in a .40S&W.
>

I converted my Glock 32C (.357 Sig) to .40S&W simply by swapping the barrel. The added stopping power was worth the one less round the magazine would hold. I have since got an extended magazines which will hold either 15 .357 or 13 40S&W rounds. You can never have too many but you can have too few. Like you observe with jets, the only time you have too much fuel is when you are on fire.

[Ed Huntress]

I like them too. I have three of them, one of which is a classic Colt
Officer's Model Target in .38 Spl. that's been worked over for
Bullseye competition shooting.

It's so smooth it's like silk. I also have a little Colt Pocket
Positive that looks like a toy, but it's really nice quality.

--
Ed Huntress

[Gunner Asch]

I share your dislike..and for the same reasons. But that being
said..Id not feel undergunned if I were carrrying one.

GUnner

[CS]

"RD Sandman" wrote in message
news:XnsA206A0AA2...@216.196.121.131...

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:7o8tu8l9cftbfb19l...@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:22:43 -0500, RD Sandman
> <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a
>>> subcompact Glock for deep concealed carry,
>>
>>Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida.
>>They tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness
>>of a small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a
>>Kahr unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>
> Im not a big Glock fan..I dont own any if that indicates it...the 26
> and 27 tuck away pretty easily.

I have owned several of them.

> Lots of my buds carry them here in Hot Dry places like California high
> desert..under tshirts.


If you will back up a few lines you will see that I said, "Glocks don't
conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They tend to print
under just a T-shirt." I spent 15 years there, had 5 or 6 Glocks.
Florida is NOT a hot, dry place like California high desert. It is a
hot, steamy one. I currently live in Arizona (which is hot and dry
except in monsoon season) and own a 23 and a 27.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kahr may be a better choice...never messed with one.

I carried my Glock 26 in Florida for a time. Never experienced a problem,
and I'm not as, er, robust, as Zimmerman. I carry SOB, which would have
been an unfortunate place for Z.

I think one of the reasons Z only shot once was the crappy trigger...he's
probably still squeezing off a double-tap.

CS

[RD Sandman]

Johnny Johnson <TopCo...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:MPG.2c58c8ced...@news.eternal-september.org:

When I was in Florida, the common sidearm for local law enforcement was a
Glock.....not for everyone....most feds down there carried SIGs.

I didn't make my statement above clear why using what the local law
enforcement does is something that you can use to your advantage. Simply
carry the same caliber and ammo that they do. If you ever need to use
your firearm, you cannot be accused by a prosecutor of using super high
powered ammo intended to maim and destroy all human life on the planet.

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <010a4b35-6ec8-418e...@googlegroups.com>, bigdog
<jecorb...@yahoo.com> says...

>
> I have since got an extended magazines which will hold either 15 .357 or 13 40S&W rounds.
>

?????

Since the .357 SIG is merely a necked-down .40 S&W case, (which in itself is
merely a shortened 10MM Auto case) why the difference in round count?

[Gunner Asch]

One thing that I should..should mention..recoil is pretty stout with
the tiny little thing. It comes now days in 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 and 45
and perhaps another..cant remember.

Its not something you will want to run a combat course every other day
with, and this is coming from a guy who shoots a TC pistol in 45-70.

And they claim that the lighter + P rounds are better as the pumpkin
rollers may not come out fast enough to open up.

That being said...for a 6 shot 45 ACP that you can tuck in your front
pants pocket...its prime.

Mine was made in Irwindale California in the late 1990s...and its on
my person virtually 24/7 and has been since then.

Gunner

[Gunner Asch]

Slim. Same with 25 ACP.

Only a fool would carry a .22 or even worse..a 25 for self defense.

The 380 is bad enough.....shrug

Gunner

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <XnsA206C5BCC3B8Fll...@216.168.3.70>, "Lloyd E.
Sponenburgh" says...
>

> Johnny Johnson <TopCo...@yahoo.com> fired this volley in
> news:MPG.2c58cae17...@news.eternal-september.org:
>

>> How did the Loadmaster let that happen?!? ;)

>
> WhenTF did he NOT? (naw... they were pretty good, mostly) We had to
> 'pack them in' sometimes over in 'Nam, even if we knew we'd use up ALL
> the PSP to get in the air. That wasn't usually the problem. Going out
> real low over the forest was the problem.
>

Ever see the Marines' "Fat Albert" C-130 support aircraft for the Navy's Blue
Angels when the touch off their RATO system? :)

Quoting Jackie Gleason's `Ralph Kramden' character:

"Bang! ZOOM!"

:D

[RD Sandman]

Johnny Johnson <TopCo...@yahoo.com> wrote in

news:MPG.2c58cae17...@news.eternal-september.org:

It happens. We flew out of Ernest Harmon AFB, Newfoundland in a C119 so
overloaded that we fell far enough below runway level at the end of the
strip that we dropped off the radar for about a half a mile. They
thought they lost an AC. As you can tell, however, we made it. I am
still here.

--
Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman

[RD Sandman]

bigdog <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:010a4b35-6ec8-418e...@googlegroups.com:

I carry (and carried) mine hot. However, I also used holsters from
excellent sources like Milt Sparks, Mitch Rosen, Alessi, Kirkpatrick,
DeSantis, White Hat or Crossbreed who make their holsters for specific
firearms not a range of them. No Uncle Mikes or other nylons. No mass
produced Galcos, etc.. My latest holster for my current Glock is a
Blackhawk Serpa open carry.

>> Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida.
>> They
>
>> tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness of a
>> small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a Kahr
>> unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>> and either a Glock or Sig for
>> jacket/baggy clothes weather.
>>
> I got a Ruger compact .380 for t-shirt and shorts weather. Conceals
> easily in the pocket of a baggy pair of short. Not the best choice for
> a gun fight, but better than nothing. It's difficult to aim but could
> be an effective up close and personal weapon.

I Have a couple of compact .38 SPL +P for that. A Taurus 85UL and a
Ruger LCR.

I am interested in finding out anything I can on a SCCY 9mm. Stainless
steel, $299 list. I need to find out if it fits my hand well.

>> > The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun
>> > fight but making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.
>>
>> One advantage of a Glock is that the local PD and Highway Patrol
>> most likely uses them although in a .40S&W.
>>
> I converted my Glock 32C (.357 Sig) to .40S&W simply by swapping the
> barrel.

Yep. I have barrels for both the 23 and 27 in the other direction. I
had the .40S&W and got the extra barrels in .357 sig. I am also
considering a 9mm set of barrels and magazines and I will essentially
have 6 guns in 2.

The added stopping power was worth the one less round the
> magazine would hold. I have since got an extended magazines which will
> hold either 15 .357 or 13 40S&W rounds. You can never have too many
> but you can have too few. Like you observe with jets, the only time
> you have too much fuel is when you are on fire.

Yep.....works for me although my most common carry guns are a Ruger SP-
101 in .357 and a Kahr P9. I find that by the time you reach 74yo, you
have picked up several carry options. ;)

--
Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman

Old Air Force adage..The only time you have too
much fuel is when you are on fire!!

[RD Sandman]

Johnny Johnson <TopCo...@yahoo.com> wrote in

news:MPG.2c58d78c3...@news.eternal-september.org:

Good catch, I didn't notice that. The .357 Sig and the .40S&W have the
same cartridge capacities in their magazines. If fact, they use the same
mags. You only need to change the mags if you go to the 9mm option.

--
Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman

Old Air Force adage..The only time you have too
much fuel is when you are on fire!!

[CS]

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
news:FsudndxPfJobA3PM...@giganews.com...

On 7/22/2013 10:49 PM, CS wrote:

> "Ray Keller" wrote in message news:9kgHt.17220$Aw4....@fx02.iad...
>
>
> ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF
> Sunday, July 21st, 2013
> The firearms and ballistics evidence in this case was very important, one
> reason why the Kel-Tec PF9 9mm
> <snip>
> The take-away is not to avoid such unmeritorious courtroom attacks by
> carrying a .25 auto with an empty chamber. The take-away is, be able to
> logically explain your choice of gun and method of carry. The defense did
> exactly this, to their credit.
>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>
> Not sure why he went with the Kel-Tec. It's cheap (that's probably
> why), but it has a seriously shitty trigger, and while it is designed
> primarily as a concealed carry gun, it has a marginally useful accessory
> rail, adding bulk, weight, and extra edges. I've heard it is also a bit
> picky about being clean.
>
> Zimmerman isn't exactly a tiny guy, so a larger, less crappy handgun
> could easily be concealed.
>
> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact

> Glock for deep concealed carry, and either a Glock or Sig for
> jacket/baggy clothes weather.
>

> The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun fight
> but making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.
>

> CS
>
>

S&W Airweight in .357. If you need more than 5 rds, you're fucked anyway.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Got one. Love it. Easiest thing in the world to conceal.

I don't carry it, though. Sure, most armed conflicts are within 21 feet,
well within the working area of the Airweight, and 5 shots of .357 ain't
nothing to sneeze at, but I just feel a whole lot more comfortable with 10
or 12 shots and a firearm I can accurately shoot out to 25 yards and beyond.
After all, the next armed conflict may be another mass shooting.

CS

[RD Sandman]

"CS" <dont...@sears.com> wrote in
news:vZ-dnadF0rinhnLM...@supernews.com:

One of my carry guns is Kahr P9. Love it...Only problem is the magazine
which is sometimes hard to start in hurry.....the one I have now has
beveled edges on the mag. The tightness when in place remains but the
mag comes out and a fresh one goes in much better now.

> I carried my Glock 26 in Florida for a time. Never experienced a
> problem, and I'm not as, er, robust, as Zimmerman.

Errr, had to mention that, didn't you. I am 5' 10" and weigh about 230-
235.

I carry SOB, which
> would have been an unfortunate place for Z.

Yep, I mostly carry at 3 to 4 O'clock. With some holsters I use
abdominal carry. Being ambidextrous when it comes to shooting helps. ;)

> I think one of the reasons Z only shot once was the crappy
> trigger...he's probably still squeezing off a double-tap.

I think they were both surprized when that sucker went off.

[Jeff M]

On 7/23/2013 7:51 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
[snip]

>> I think one of the reasons Z only shot once was the crappy
>> trigger...he's probably still squeezing off a double-tap.
>
> I think they were both surprized when that sucker went off.

One of the advantages of the Kel-Tec for concealed carry is that it does
have a quite long trigger pull. But that cuts down the risk of an AD
under stress, and the gun is not supposed to be target shooter, anyway.
Another is the ability to dispense with a holster and carry "Mexican
style" IWB with the factory belt clip.

But I thought he had a P-11, not the PF-9. Barring newer models, it was
one of the smallest, lightest 9mm's with a full 10 round mag you could
buy. I didn't consider the trigger all that crappy, after a proper
fluff and buff job on the pistol. It was just long, but not slack or
stagey.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f1btu8p6qtvr2b19d...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:49:03 -0400, "Ted Dwane"
> <Muford...@bass.gov> wrote:
>
>>
>>

>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact

>>> Glock for deep concealed carry, and either a Glock or Sig for
>>> jacket/baggy clothes weather.
>>>
>>> The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun fight
>>> but making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.
>>>
>>> CS
>>>
>>>
>>
>>S&W Airweight in .357. If you need more than 5 rds, you're fucked anyway.
>>

>>###
>>Unless there are 6 bandits. :/
>
> Averages....got to keep them in mind.
>
> And keep a spare speedloader/magazine in your pocket or on your belt.
>
> 2.5 rds fired in a gunfight..is the average.
>
> Toms gun doubles the average.

And also doubles the thickness which is harder to conceal than size.

I'll take a nice thin single stack for a concealed carry over a revolver any
day.

[RD Sandman]

Jeff M <NoS...@NoThanks.org> wrote in news:
_padnWKRt6lXtXLM...@giganews.com:

> On 7/23/2013 7:51 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
> [snip]
>>> I think one of the reasons Z only shot once was the crappy
>>> trigger...he's probably still squeezing off a double-tap.
>>
>> I think they were both surprized when that sucker went off.
>
> One of the advantages of the Kel-Tec for concealed carry is that it
does
> have a quite long trigger pull. But that cuts down the risk of an AD
> under stress, and the gun is not supposed to be target shooter, anyway.
> Another is the ability to dispense with a holster and carry "Mexican
> style" IWB with the factory belt clip.



> But I thought he had a P-11, not the PF-9.

Time Magazine, Mother Jones and the LA Times have identified it as a PF-
9. However, you made me go look. ;)

Barring newer models, it was
> one of the smallest, lightest 9mm's with a full 10 round mag you could
> buy. I didn't consider the trigger all that crappy, after a proper
> fluff and buff job on the pistol. It was just long, but not slack or
> stagey.

Lot of practice will also do the same thing on trigger parts by smoothing
surfaces. Yes, it is long but not stagy. I don't have one but know some
people who do.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:uu6uu8ln6695ut69l...@4ax.com...

Perhaps, but I would rather have a .22 short....than nothing.

It's not a question of which gun you should carry....it's a question of
which gun you will carry.

[RD Sandman]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:ksnaap$vak$1...@dont-email.me:

I won't although I do some days. ;)

I can get away with some guns others cannot due to placing 230-235 pounds
on a 5' 10" frame. Hell, if I carry a small slim semi-auto in abdominal
carry or cross draw position, I could go out in the rain and the gun
wouldn't get wet. ;)

[RD Sandman]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:ksnaha$ed$1...@dont-email.me:

Welcome to the NAA Sidewinder .22mag.

> It's not a question of which gun you should carry....it's a question
> of which gun you will carry.
>
>
>

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

>> I'll take a nice thin single stack for a concealed carry over a
>> revolver any day.

Got both for different 'hoods and different clothes: A 1940s vintage
6,35mm PPK and a Taurus Judge .410/.45LC.

I really like the Judge, but it does print pretty bad.

Lloyd

[CS]

"Jeff M" wrote in message
news:_padnWKRt6lXtXLM...@giganews.com...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Long, but not slack or stagey. There's a dick joke in there somewhere.

Just some 411, I believe the law enforcement/military communities are
getting away from the Accidental Discharge label.

It is usually referred to as an ND, Negligent Discharge.

I suppose the thinking goes, a modern firearm won't go off "accidently."
There must be negligence, finger on trigger, lack of maintenance on holster,
and so on. Can't say I disagree.

CS

[deep]

All double action handguns both revolvers and autos work exactly the
same way when in DA mode. In the case of the Kel-Tec of course that's
strictly a DA only which I've always thought was absurd but for a
cheap piece of crap it makes design so much simpler. You want any
kind of accuracy you need single action mode. But for shooting
unarmed kids in the heart at very close range it seems to work
adequately.

[rbowman]

wrote:

> You want any
> kind of accuracy you need single action mode.

Jerry Miculek does just fine with a Smith 627...

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <Bv-dncLUX-N3q3LM...@supernews.com>, CS
<dont...@sears.com> says...

>
> Just some 411, I believe the law enforcement/military communities
> are getting away from the Accidental Discharge label.
>
> It is usually referred to as an ND, Negligent Discharge.
>

Actually, it's "Unintentional Discharge," since not all are a result of
negligence.

https://www.valorforblue.org/Documents/Publications/Public/Unintentional_Discha
rges_Finger_Off_the_Trigger.pdf

[Ray Keller]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lg6uu85o0giim2ba5...@4ax.com...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=355584616
Another good one is the Star PD 45ACP, 5 in the magazine plus one in the
pipe.
Alloy frame so very light at 25 ounces and not DAO
I carried mine cocked and locked
Pretty accurate for a short barrel
Recoil was such that it was not something you spent a lot of time plinking
with....that was before I got into reloading
I have handled quite a few DAO's (I ran a pawn shop Gun dept for a couple
years) but have yet to see one I would want to own.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 21:36:46 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:

I shot High Master with a Mod 586.

Shrug

I prefer revolvers for shooting..well..for just about all shooting
other than people shooting/ concealed carry. Ive got more wheel guns
than I do self loaders..but they get carried far far less than do the
self loaders.

I dont go pig hunting with a .45 ACP nor do I call coyotes with a 9mm
in hand.

However...I do carry now and then, a wheel gun for self defense..but
California has a 3 gun limit on the CCWs here...so I had to carry my
self loaders. The 1911 tucks away much better than does the Mod 57
which I usually carry out in the fields,, and the Mod 57 shoots much
farther and hits harder than does the 1911

[Gunner Asch]

My best concealed carry weapon is the AMT DAO 45. The next best one is
a Star BM (love that gun!!...but its only a 9mm)

[Gunner Asch]

The Star PD is/was a MARVELOUS gun. Half the cops I worked with
carried them off duty. The rest were constantly looking for one. I
had 2 over the years..still kick myself for trading them off for
"something better"

>I have handled quite a few DAO's (I ran a pawn shop Gun dept for a couple
>years) but have yet to see one I would want to own.
>

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:f9ruu8d128atj8jsb...@4ax.com...

Yep, I wanted my sister's Star Model 'B' for a long time, and by the time I
found another the 'microguns' were out and much lighter, compact and
concealable.

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Tue, 23 Jul 2013 17:03:23 -0700
typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 18:54:22 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>
>>On 7/23/2013 11:38 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:22:43 -0500, RD Sandman
>>> <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact
>>>>> Glock for deep concealed carry,
>>>>

>>>> Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They
>>>> tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness of a
>>>> small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a Kahr
>>>> unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>>>
>>> Im not a big Glock fan..I dont own any if that indicates it...the 26
>>> and 27 tuck away pretty easily.
>>>

>>> Lots of my buds carry them here in Hot Dry places like California high
>>> desert..under tshirts.
>>>
>>

>>I hate their trigger groups and the polygonal barrel, unless you use FMJ's.
>
>I share your dislike..and for the same reasons. But that being
>said..Id not feel undergunned if I were carrrying one.

I'd still want to have one to evaluate for myself.

Of course, I have my own "eccentricities" when it comes to
firearms. B-)
--
pyotr filipivich.
Just about the time you finally see light at the end of the tunnel,
you find out it's a Government Project to build more tunnel.

[pyotr filipivich]

Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> on Tue, 23 Jul 2013 19:06:05 -0400 typed in
misc.survivalism the following:
>On 7/23/2013 1:13 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> "Ted Dwane" <Muford...@bass.gov> on Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:49:03
>> -0400 typed in misc.survivalism the following:

>>> "Tom Gardner" wrote in message
>>> news:FsudndxPfJobA3PM...@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> On 7/22/2013 10:49 PM, CS wrote:
>>>> "Ray Keller" wrote in message news:9kgHt.17220$Aw4....@fx02.iad...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF
>>>> Sunday, July 21st, 2013
>>>> The firearms and ballistics evidence in this case was very important, one
>>>> reason why the Kel-Tec PF9 9mm
>>>> <snip>
>>>> The take-away is not to avoid such unmeritorious courtroom attacks by
>>>> carrying a .25 auto with an empty chamber. The take-away is, be able to
>>>> logically explain your choice of gun and method of carry. The defense did
>>>> exactly this, to their credit.
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>> Not sure why he went with the Kel-Tec. It's cheap (that's probably
>>>> why), but it has a seriously shitty trigger, and while it is designed
>>>> primarily as a concealed carry gun, it has a marginally useful accessory
>>>> rail, adding bulk, weight, and extra edges. I've heard it is also a bit
>>>> picky about being clean.
>>>>
>>>> Zimmerman isn't exactly a tiny guy, so a larger, less crappy handgun
>>>> could easily be concealed.
>>>>

>>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact

>>>> Glock for deep concealed carry, and either a Glock or Sig for
>>>> jacket/baggy clothes weather.
>>>>
>>>> The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun fight
>>>> but making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.
>>>>
>>>> CS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> S&W Airweight in .357. If you need more than 5 rds, you're fucked anyway.
>>>
>>> ###
>>> Unless there are 6 bandits. :/
>>

>> You can always find your self completely outgunned.
>>
>> My brother knew the guy who had been leaving Addis Abba at the
>> time of the Marxist coup. Armed with a 357 revolver, he figured he
>> was okay. Till the first road block. Where the guy who stopped the
>> bus had an AK47. With the 30 round mag in the well, and at lest one
>> more 'handy'. As did his buddy, as well as their buddies. In short
>> there were more of them than he had loaded rounds - and they all had
>> thirty rounds at hand in automatic rifles.
>> Yes, an armed society is a polite society. You dare not be
>> impolite, because then you will have a tremendous amount of paperwork
>> to fill out - if you are in a paperwork filling and filing society.
>>
>Take your time, place your shots.

That's always your only real "option".

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 02:19:03 -0400, "Scout"

The BM isnt as light as one of the microguns..but it feels like a
1911, handles the same way..is slim, trim and made of steel and they
are a freaking joy to shoot.

Just really hard to find parts for them. So I have several.

For those who dont know about the B versions..or Stars....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Model_BM

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227761

One of the best and most complete write ups on them

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Critical%20Look%20at%20Star%20Model%20BM.htm

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <csquu89lv4l4fnjd3...@4ax.com>, Gunner Asch
<gunne...@gmail.com> says...

>
> The 1911 tucks away much better than does the Mod 57
> which I usually carry out in the fields,, and the Mod 57
> shoots much farther and hits harder than does the 1911
>

"Back in the day" early in my LEO career, I was a deputy sheriff in a sheriff's
office that restricted the deputies to carrying wheel guns only.

When I worked uniform patrol I carried the S&W Model 629 in 4", but when I
worked plain clothes (warrants, fugitive, etc.) I carried the S&W Model 58 M&P
(fixed sights didn't hang up on the suit coat's or sport jacket's lining like
the adjustable sights of the 629).

Of course, in both cases the S&W Model 37 Airweight with .38 Special +P+ and
Tyler T-Grip was the backup on the ankle.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 23:03:16 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>>http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=355584616
>>Another good one is the Star PD 45ACP, 5 in the magazine plus one in the
>>pipe.
>>Alloy frame so very light at 25 ounces and not DAO
>>I carried mine cocked and locked
>>Pretty accurate for a short barrel
>>Recoil was such that it was not something you spent a lot of time plinking
>>with....that was before I got into reloading
>
>The Star PD is/was a MARVELOUS gun. Half the cops I worked with
>carried them off duty. The rest were constantly looking for one. I
>had 2 over the years..still kick myself for trading them off for
>"something better"

Star PD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Model_PD

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=349050

If you put a decent aftermarket buffer system in them..they last
pretty well. If you dont...they bust.

The FireStar was the updated, improved model and is a FINE little gun.
Bit heavy ..but there isnt any plastic in it either.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-142.html

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/2939517022_09b3bb4eac.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnuS2DwGQm4



Totally off the subject..but found these to be fascinating

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue69HqrLpDY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WIIKje1g2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MA1IFKwdAQ

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 23:29:09 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Tue, 23 Jul 2013 17:03:23 -0700
>typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>>On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 18:54:22 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>>
>>>On 7/23/2013 11:38 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:22:43 -0500, RD Sandman
>>>> <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact
>>>>>> Glock for deep concealed carry,
>>>>>
>>>>> Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They
>>>>> tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness of a
>>>>> small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a Kahr
>>>>> unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>>>>
>>>> Im not a big Glock fan..I dont own any if that indicates it...the 26
>>>> and 27 tuck away pretty easily.
>>>>
>>>> Lots of my buds carry them here in Hot Dry places like California high
>>>> desert..under tshirts.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I hate their trigger groups and the polygonal barrel, unless you use FMJ's.
>>
>>I share your dislike..and for the same reasons. But that being
>>said..Id not feel undergunned if I were carrrying one.
>
> I'd still want to have one to evaluate for myself.
>
> Of course, I have my own "eccentricities" when it comes to
>firearms. B-)

I just dont like self loaders without external safeties. I have (1)
plastic gun..one of the last Grendal 380s ever made and tweaked for me
by the lady gunsmith who ran their smithing department. No safety
either of any sort..but the trigger requires about 15 lbs of pull over
about a kilometer of distance before firing. Safe enough for 5 yrd
use ...one of the bedroom guns

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:12:39 -0600, deep wrote:

>
>All double action handguns both revolvers and autos work exactly the
>same way when in DA mode. In the case of the Kel-Tec of course that's
>strictly a DA only which I've always thought was absurd but for a
>cheap piece of crap it makes design so much simpler. You want any
>kind of accuracy you need single action mode. But for shooting
>unarmed kids in the heart at very close range it seems to work
>adequately.

Oh look. Mr. Firearms Expert is at it again. I think there still might
be someone out there who actually believes Dudu knows something about
guns.

[RD Sandman]

deep wrote in news:agduu858ddd08qbno...@4ax.com:

That depends on how basic you wish to get. The basic operations are the
same, but how they accomplish them may differ.

In the case of the Kel-Tec of course that's
> strictly a DA only which I've always thought was absurd but for a
> cheap piece of crap it makes design so much simpler.

Many guns, both semi auto and revolvers are DAO. For one thing it makes
for a heavier trigger pull so external safeties are not really needed.
It also makes for a longer trigger pull since the trigger has to cock the
weapon and fire it.

You want any
> kind of accuracy you need single action mode.

Not a lot of accuracy is needed for most self defense work. The
distances are rather close.

But for shooting
> unarmed kids in the heart at very close range it seems to work
> adequately.

It did in that case, didn't it.

[RD Sandman]

rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote in news:b590egFe0h7U1
@mid.individual.net:

Jerry does VERY well with one. Fire 6, reload, fire 6. 2.99 seconds.

[RD Sandman]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:csquu89lv4l4fnjd3...@4ax.com:

My state has no limit on the number of guns you can carry. In fact, one
does not even need a permit to carry concealed. We have what some call
"Constitutional carry". Open....concealed....whatever floats your boat.

[RD Sandman]

Klaus Schadenfreude <klausscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:sjevu85r01amffgf2...@4ax.com:

Besides Dudu?

[RD Sandman]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in
news:XnsA206DDC1AAFDAll...@216.168.3.70:

Yep, but then it is a big wide cylinder compared to my .357.

[RD Sandman]

"CS" <dont...@sears.com> wrote in
news:Bv-dncLUX-N3q3LM...@supernews.com:

> "Jeff M" wrote in message
> news:_padnWKRt6lXtXLM...@giganews.com...
>
> On 7/23/2013 7:51 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
> [snip]
>>> I think one of the reasons Z only shot once was the crappy
>>> trigger...he's probably still squeezing off a double-tap.
>>
>> I think they were both surprized when that sucker went off.
>
> One of the advantages of the Kel-Tec for concealed carry is that it
> does have a quite long trigger pull. But that cuts down the risk of
> an AD under stress, and the gun is not supposed to be target shooter,
> anyway.

Exactomundo.

> Another is the ability to dispense with a holster and carry "Mexican
> style" IWB with the factory belt clip.

For some that works. I prefer a tailored holster.

> But I thought he had a P-11, not the PF-9. Barring newer models, it
> was one of the smallest, lightest 9mm's with a full 10 round mag you
> could buy. I didn't consider the trigger all that crappy, after a
> proper fluff and buff job on the pistol. It was just long, but not
> slack or stagey.

That was Jeff M's statement.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Long, but not slack or stagey. There's a dick joke in there
> somewhere.
>
> Just some 411, I believe the law enforcement/military communities are
> getting away from the Accidental Discharge label.
>
> It is usually referred to as an ND, Negligent Discharge.
>
> I suppose the thinking goes, a modern firearm won't go off
> "accidently." There must be negligence, finger on trigger, lack of
> maintenance on holster, and so on. Can't say I disagree.

Pretty much.....

[badd...@baddabing.com]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 19:17:12 -0500, Johnny Johnson
<TopCo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>In article <XnsA206C5BCC3B8Fll...@216.168.3.70>, "Lloyd E.
>Sponenburgh" says...
>>
>> Johnny Johnson <TopCo...@yahoo.com> fired this volley in
>> news:MPG.2c58cae17...@news.eternal-september.org:
>>
>>> How did the Loadmaster let that happen?!? ;)
>>
>> WhenTF did he NOT? (naw... they were pretty good, mostly) We had to
>> 'pack them in' sometimes over in 'Nam, even if we knew we'd use up ALL
>> the PSP to get in the air. That wasn't usually the problem. Going out
>> real low over the forest was the problem.
>>
>Ever see the Marines' "Fat Albert" C-130 support aircraft for the Navy's Blue
>Angels when the touch off their RATO system? :)
>
>Quoting Jackie Gleason's `Ralph Kramden' character:
>
>"Bang! ZOOM!"
>
>:D

You mean these guys? http://dave-eady.org/ Unfortunately this will
be the first year in over 20 that they won't be doing a show during
Seafair in Seattle. However when they are in town they stop by to BS
and perhaps even imbibe a tasty adult beverage or two. They're all
crazier n' shit house rats... and that's a good thing!

BB

[Wayne]

"RD Sandman" wrote in message
news:XnsA20754D11...@216.196.121.131...

# My state has no limit on the number of guns you can carry. In fact, one
# does not even need a permit to carry concealed. We have what some call
# "Constitutional carry". Open....concealed....whatever floats your boat.

Are there a lot of folks down near Tuscon who are trying to change that?

[Sweet Potato Tatum, Possum Youngblood, Saltpork Parker and Cornpone Pickle]

On 7/23/2013 3:47 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in

> news:7o8tu8l9cftbfb19l...@4ax.com:

>
>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:22:43 -0500, RD Sandman
>> <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a
>>>> subcompact Glock for deep concealed carry,
>>>
>>> Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida.
>>> They tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness
>>> of a small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a
>>> Kahr unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>>
>> Im not a big Glock fan..I dont own any if that indicates it...the 26
>> and 27 tuck away pretty easily.
>

> I have owned several of them.

>
>> Lots of my buds carry them here in Hot Dry places like California high
>> desert..under tshirts.
>
>

> If you will back up a few lines you will see that I said, "Glocks don't

> conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They tend to print

> under just a T-shirt." I spent 15 years there, had 5 or 6 Glocks.
> Florida is NOT a hot, dry place like California high desert.

gummer doesn't live in the high desert. He lives in Taft, at an
elevation of about 900 feet. Towns in the high desert - Palmdale
(2600'), Lancaster (2400'), Victorville (2700'), Barstow (2200') - are
all significantly above 2000 feet.


> It is a
> hot, steamy one. I currently live in Arizona (which is hot and dry
> except in monsoon season) and own a 23 and a 27.
>

[Gunner Asch]

Those will work. What did you carry in the 629? 44 Specials?

[Gunner Asch]

California is a "May Issue" state. Some counties like mine..are
effectively shall issue, others such as Los Angeles...pretty much no
issue.

<http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1EZkldv5Yko/TpSDbDTJ1AI/AAAAAAAAB60/3HyqDU1OThM/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2011-10-11%2Bat%2B%2BTuesday%252C%2BOctober%2B11%252C%2B1.55%2BPM.png>

[Gunner Asch]

>
>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:12:39 -0600, deep wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>All double action handguns both revolvers and autos work exactly the
>>>same way when in DA mode.

So when one pulls the DA trigger back on a self loader...the cylinder
revolves?

Interesting.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:27:25 -0700, "Sweet Potato Tatum, Possum
Youngblood, Saltpork Parker and Cornpone Pickle"

<goresome...@soulbowl.com> wrote:


>
>gummer doesn't live in the high desert. He lives in Taft, at an
>elevation of about 900 feet. Towns in the high desert - Palmdale
>(2600'), Lancaster (2400'), Victorville (2700'), Barstow (2200') - are
>all significantly above 2000 feet.

Actually Im at 1405 feet. Can you tell me at what elevation the High
Desert starts?

Feel free to trot out the cites. We will all be waiting breathlessly
for them

Let me also ask..is Denver in the :high desert: with an elevation over
5000 feet?

It must be...right?

Laugh laugh laugh

Thats an interesting nym. Stopped copying them from my facebook
friends list finally?

<plink>

Gunner

[Jack Carlson]

On 7/24/2013 9:52 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:27:25 -0700, "Sweet Potato Tatum, Possum
> Youngblood, Saltpork Parker and Cornpone Pickle"
> <goresome...@soulbowl.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> gummer doesn't live in the high desert. He lives in Taft, at an
>> elevation of about 900 feet. Towns in the high desert - Palmdale
>> (2600'), Lancaster (2400'), Victorville (2700'), Barstow (2200') - are
>> all significantly above 2000 feet.
>
> Actually Im at 1405 feet.

Actually, gummer, you are at 1020' elevation, as has been very well
established:

http://tinyurl.com/a3r8jqm
http://www.topoquest.com/map.php?lat=35.13467&lon=-119.45536&datum=nad27&zoom=4&map=auto&coord=d&mode=pan&size=m

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.crafts.metalworking/BfeVyikv-Jo/jjcVX7xxt7EJ

[Outta Town Brown]

On 7/24/2013 9:52 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 08:27:25 -0700, "Sweet Potato Tatum, Possum
> Youngblood, Saltpork Parker and Cornpone Pickle"
> <goresome...@soulbowl.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> gummer doesn't live in the high desert. He lives in Taft, at an
>> elevation of about 900 feet. Towns in the high desert - Palmdale
>> (2600'), Lancaster (2400'), Victorville (2700'), Barstow (2200') - are
>> all significantly above 2000 feet.
>
> Actually Im at 1405 feet.

In 2011, gummer said his squat was at 1953' elevation:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.philosophy/xb-fNccOkLs/z1mNPFyT4hQJ
[note, and mock, the fake precision]. Now he has shaved 500' off the
elevation of 326 S. Olive Av in Taft.

> Can you tell me at what elevation the High Desert starts?

Actually, the high desert starts *east* of the Tehachapi Mountains:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Desert_%28California%29

In a straight line, gummer, it is over 65 miles from your shithole to
the "high desert".

>
> Feel free to trot out the cites. We will all be waiting breathlessly
> for them

See above.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

RD Sandman <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> fired this volley in
news:XnsA207552DE...@216.196.121.131:

> Yep, but then it is a big wide cylinder compared to my .357.

Got a nice commemorative Security Six in .357, too... but that doesn't fit
all clothes. Surprisingly, except for the diameter of the spool, it's
EXACTLY the same footprint as the Judge.

Lloyd

[Gunner Asch]

From your own cites...

"he High Desert is an unofficial and vaguely defined geographic area
of southern California located to the northeast of the San Gabriel
Mountains. The term "High Desert" is used most commonly by the news
media,[1] especially in weather forecasts,[2] and in the names of
businesses and organizations.[3][4] The High Desert may be defined as
the area bounded by the San Gabriel Mountains and the Tehachapi
Mountains, and extending varyingly into the Mojave Desert's Basin and
Range Province to the east, depending upon the many different
viewpoints on what constitutes the High Desert. The term is used most
commonly to refer to the Antelope Valley and Victor Valley areas, as
well as the Edwards Air Force Base region to the north, but also may
encompass other areas, such as the northern portions of Joshua Tree
National Park and the Twentynine Palms area and Morongo Basin. The
term "High Desert" serves to differentiate it from southern
California's Low Desert, which would be defined mostly by the
differences in latitude, elevation, climate and vegetation native to
the region. Palm Springs, California is considered 'Low Desert' at
100' above sea level. In contrast, Landers, California is considered
'High Desert' at 3,100' above sea level."

By your cites..then Tehacipi isnt in the "high desert either..<VBG>
Nor is Ridgecrest, etc etc etc., right Fudgepacker?

Now Im curious...Cuyama and New Cuyama....elevation of 2150...those
arent in the High Desert, right? <VBG> Because they are to the west
of the Tehacipis...right?

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/small/71912755.jpg

now the difference between that photo and this photo is..what?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Antelope_Valley_Poppy_Preserve.jpg/220px-Antelope_Valley_Poppy_Preserve.jpg

other than the flowering poppies of course..? Hummm?

Laugh laugh laugh

[Outta Town Brown]

"Tehacipi" [sic] is in the mountains, gummer, you plodding fuckstain.



> Now Im curious...

We're curious to know how you figure your shithole, which is at 1020'
elevation - *not* "1953'", *not* "1405'" - is in the "high desert" when
the high desert starts more than 65 miles east of you, *OVER* a mountain
range.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 10:50:03 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>

Oh..excuse me..I left out the other photos....

http://pics4.city-data.com/cpicc/cfiles29627.jpg

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/581683/581683,1272324961,8/stock-photo-wildflowers-along-hurricane-road-between-carrizo-plain-national-monument-and-taft-california-51838453.jpg

http://cdn-9.eneighborhoods.com/L1/79964/727/3yd-RFGCB-87727/1612173493.jpg

http://www.taftmidwaydriller.com/storyimage/CA/20130717/NEWS/130719780/AR/0/wmidway-Road.jpg&MaxW=435&MaxH=400

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NPSLeIw0_z4/SUIKvyAGwJI/AAAAAAAACEU/HZBQ62ew2xA/s400/victorville+001.jpg

http://www.menupix.com/town_img/VictorvilleCAHP.jpg

Etc etc. <VBG>

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:48:12 -0700

typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>
>>

>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:12:39 -0600, deep wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>All double action handguns both revolvers and autos work exactly the
>>>>same way when in DA mode.
>
>So when one pulls the DA trigger back on a self loader...the cylinder
>revolves?

I hate it when that happens.
>
>Interesting.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:09:55 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:48:12 -0700
>typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>>
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:12:39 -0600, deep wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>All double action handguns both revolvers and autos work exactly the
>>>>>same way when in DA mode.
>>
>>So when one pulls the DA trigger back on a self loader...the cylinder
>>revolves?
>
> I hate it when that happens.
>>

ROFLMAO!! Me too!

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:21:06 -0700

typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:09:55 -0700, pyotr filipivich
><ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:48:12 -0700
>>typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>>>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:12:39 -0600, deep wrote:
>>>>>>All double action handguns both revolvers and autos work exactly the
>>>>>>same way when in DA mode.
>>>
>>>So when one pulls the DA trigger back on a self loader...the cylinder
>>>revolves?
>>
>> I hate it when that happens.
>>>
>ROFLMAO!! Me too!

What makes this even more humorous, is that the CAD package I use
does allow for three dimensional "parts" to intersect. Nothing like
having all of the parts for an Arbor Press located "together".

So, with a bit of work, I could have parts for an automatic pistol
"rotate". Bwahahahahaha.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:30:43 -0700, pyotr filipivich

<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:21:06 -0700
>typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>>On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:09:55 -0700, pyotr filipivich
>><ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:48:12 -0700
>>>typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>>>>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:12:39 -0600, deep wrote:
>>>>>>>All double action handguns both revolvers and autos work exactly the
>>>>>>>same way when in DA mode.
>>>>
>>>>So when one pulls the DA trigger back on a self loader...the cylinder
>>>>revolves?
>>>
>>> I hate it when that happens.
>>>>
>>ROFLMAO!! Me too!
>
> What makes this even more humorous, is that the CAD package I use
>does allow for three dimensional "parts" to intersect. Nothing like
>having all of the parts for an Arbor Press located "together".
>
> So, with a bit of work, I could have parts for an automatic pistol
>"rotate". Bwahahahahaha.

LOL!!!!

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:30:43 -0700, pyotr filipivich

<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:21:06 -0700
>typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>>On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:09:55 -0700, pyotr filipivich
>><ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:48:12 -0700
>>>typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>>>>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:12:39 -0600, deep wrote:
>>>>>>>All double action handguns both revolvers and autos work exactly the
>>>>>>>same way when in DA mode.
>>>>
>>>>So when one pulls the DA trigger back on a self loader...the cylinder
>>>>revolves?
>>>
>>> I hate it when that happens.
>>>>
>>ROFLMAO!! Me too!
>
> What makes this even more humorous, is that the CAD package I use
>does allow for three dimensional "parts" to intersect. Nothing like
>having all of the parts for an Arbor Press located "together".
>
> So, with a bit of work, I could have parts for an automatic pistol
>"rotate". Bwahahahahaha.

Of course...we cant laugh too loudly..perhaps Deep was referring to
the ever popular and widely carried Webley Fosbery Automatic Revolver

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley-Fosbery_Automatic_Revolver


laugh laugh laugh laugh!!!

[Tom Gardner]

On 7/24/2013 2:29 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Tue, 23 Jul 2013 17:03:23 -0700

> typed in misc.survivalism the following:

>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 18:54:22 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:

>>
>>> On 7/23/2013 11:38 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:22:43 -0500, RD Sandman
>>>> <rdsandman[remove]@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact
>>>>>> Glock for deep concealed carry,
>>>>>
>>>>> Glocks don't conceal that well in hot, muggy places like Florida. They
>>>>> tend to print under just a T-shirt. Besides it is the thickness of a
>>>>> small brick even in 9mm just like any other double stack. Try a Kahr
>>>>> unless you are interested simply in capacity.
>>>>
>>>> Im not a big Glock fan..I dont own any if that indicates it...the 26
>>>> and 27 tuck away pretty easily.
>>>>

>>>> Lots of my buds carry them here in Hot Dry places like California high
>>>> desert..under tshirts.
>>>>
>>>

>>> I hate their trigger groups and the polygonal barrel, unless you use FMJ's.
>>
>> I share your dislike..and for the same reasons. But that being
>> said..Id not feel undergunned if I were carrrying one.
>
> I'd still want to have one to evaluate for myself.
>
> Of course, I have my own "eccentricities" when it comes to
> firearms. B-)
>


You won't be impressed, except for the feel in your hand...if your hand
is the right size. If you want a good, cheap plastic gun, get a SA XD-9
or other caliber. A little trigger work and it's NICE!

[Tom Gardner]

On 7/23/2013 7:58 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 18:52:53 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>
>> On 7/23/2013 11:47 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:17:24 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/22/2013 10:49 PM, CS wrote:
>>>>> "Ray Keller" wrote in message news:9kgHt.17220$Aw4....@fx02.iad...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF
>>>>> Sunday, July 21st, 2013
>>>>> The firearms and ballistics evidence in this case was very important, one
>>>>> reason why the Kel-Tec PF9 9mm
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>> The take-away is not to avoid such unmeritorious courtroom attacks by
>>>>> carrying a .25 auto with an empty chamber. The take-away is, be able to
>>>>> logically explain your choice of gun and method of carry. The defense did
>>>>> exactly this, to their credit.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure why he went with the Kel-Tec. It's cheap (that's probably
>>>>> why), but it has a seriously shitty trigger, and while it is designed
>>>>> primarily as a concealed carry gun, it has a marginally useful accessory
>>>>> rail, adding bulk, weight, and extra edges. I've heard it is also a bit
>>>>> picky about being clean.
>>>>>
>>>>> Zimmerman isn't exactly a tiny guy, so a larger, less crappy handgun
>>>>> could easily be concealed.

>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a subcompact

>>>>> Glock for deep concealed carry, and either a Glock or Sig for
>>>>> jacket/baggy clothes weather.
>>>>>
>>>>> The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun fight
>>>>> but making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.
>>>>>
>>>>> CS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> S&W Airweight in .357. If you need more than 5 rds, you're fucked anyway.
>>>
>>> Colt Detective Special...a ounce or two more, but one more round just
>>> for luck. My 2nd place favorite tuckable, just behind the AMT DAO 45
>>>
>>> Tom.. check one out (DAO 45) next time you see one at a gun show or
>>> shop...lay it on top of the Airweight. Tucks away nicely..and holds
>>> 5 in the mag and one up the spout. Stainless, double action only and
>>> no sharp edges.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=amt+dao+45&oq=Amt
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrdpkF4j2G0
>>>
>>>
>>> Looks like High Standard bought the rights and is making them again
>>>
>>> http://highstandard.com/index.php/customers/38-weapon-products/weapons/145-recommended-products-for-private-security
>>>
>> A buddy has one and I've played with it...me like! But, a lot less can
>> go wrong with a wheel gun and it's so simple and it works every time
>> unless you forget to load it or have a FTF. My first love is wheel
>> guns, especially S&W's (can't afford a Colt).
>
> I like them too. I have three of them, one of which is a classic Colt
> Officer's Model Target in .38 Spl. that's been worked over for
> Bullseye competition shooting.
>
> It's so smooth it's like silk. I also have a little Colt Pocket
> Positive that looks like a toy, but it's really nice quality.
>


Is the PP a .380? My bud has loved his for many decades, especially
since it prevented his wife's and his deaths at the hands of two
attackers with guns. He bought it right after coming home from Nam.
Still caries it. I told him to sell it and buy a new car or such.

[Gunner Asch]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/07/bryan-hyde/gun-review-springfield-xd-9/

And it has a grip safety!! Ill have to look into these.

Maybe Ill get a plastic gun!

Gunner

[Tom Gardner]

On 7/23/2013 9:33 PM, Scout wrote:
>
>
> "Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:uu6uu8ln6695ut69l...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 19:04:19 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/23/2013 12:17 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 11:49:03 -0400, "Ted Dwane"
>>>> <Muford...@bass.gov> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Tom Gardner" wrote in message
>>>>> news:FsudndxPfJobA3PM...@giganews.com...

>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/22/2013 10:49 PM, CS wrote:
>>>>>> "Ray Keller" wrote in message news:9kgHt.17220$Aw4....@fx02.iad...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 5: THE GUN STUFF
>>>>>> Sunday, July 21st, 2013
>>>>>> The firearms and ballistics evidence in this case was very
>>>>>> important, one
>>>>>> reason why the Kel-Tec PF9 9mm
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> The take-away is not to avoid such unmeritorious courtroom attacks by
>>>>>> carrying a .25 auto with an empty chamber. The take-away is, be
>>>>>> able to
>>>>>> logically explain your choice of gun and method of carry. The
>>>>>> defense did
>>>>>> exactly this, to their credit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure why he went with the Kel-Tec. It's cheap (that's probably
>>>>>> why), but it has a seriously shitty trigger, and while it is designed
>>>>>> primarily as a concealed carry gun, it has a marginally useful
>>>>>> accessory
>>>>>> rail, adding bulk, weight, and extra edges. I've heard it is also
>>>>>> a bit
>>>>>> picky about being clean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Zimmerman isn't exactly a tiny guy, so a larger, less crappy handgun
>>>>>> could easily be concealed.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Hopefully those offering to buy him a replacement go with a
>>>>>> subcompact

>>>>>> Glock for deep concealed carry, and either a Glock or Sig for
>>>>>> jacket/baggy clothes weather.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last paragraph makes great sense, not just for surviving a gun
>>>>>> fight
>>>>>> but making it through the legal drama with a minimum of fuss.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> S&W Airweight in .357. If you need more than 5 rds, you're fucked
>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>

>>>>> ###
>>>>> Unless there are 6 bandits. :/
>>>>
>>>> Averages....got to keep them in mind.
>>>>
>>>> And keep a spare speedloader/magazine in your pocket or on your belt.
>>>>
>>>> 2.5 rds fired in a gunfight..is the average.
>>>>
>>>> Toms gun doubles the average.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> What are the odds that those 2.5 rounds are .22's?
>>>
>>
>> Slim. Same with 25 ACP.
>>
>> Only a fool would carry a .22 or even worse..a 25 for self defense.
>>
>> The 380 is bad enough.....shrug
>
> Perhaps, but I would rather have a .22 short....than nothing.
>
> It's not a question of which gun you should carry....it's a question of
> which gun you will carry.
>
>


Any gun will do, take time to place shots and practice like hell. BUT,
some are better than others and what WILL you feel naked without or
don't notice you have it on you.

[Tom Gardner]

On 7/23/2013 9:29 PM, Scout wrote:
>
>
> "Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> news:f1btu8p6qtvr2b19d...@4ax.com...

> And also doubles the thickness which is harder to conceal than size.

>
> I'll take a nice thin single stack for a concealed carry over a revolver
> any day.
>
>

I don't even notice it's there and I don't have to do anything other
than point and click.

[Tom Gardner]

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Got one. Love it. Easiest thing in the world to conceal.
>
> I don't carry it, though. Sure, most armed conflicts are within 21
> feet, well within the working area of the Airweight, and 5 shots of .357
> ain't nothing to sneeze at, but I just feel a whole lot more comfortable
> with 10 or 12 shots and a firearm I can accurately shoot out to 25 yards
> and beyond. After all, the next armed conflict may be another mass
> shooting.
>
> CS


Life is full of compromise!

[Gunner Asch]

"any gun will do" GIVEN the time to place shots.....which
unfortunately..happens all too seldom. Watch the shootings on
YouTube..you will see very few people go down instantly when hit..and
are often in good enough shape to run away..or to return fire.

folks should really..really view the shooting videos on YouTube..real
people in real life shootings. And you will notice that very few
people simply get shot..and fall down immediately. When you consider
that only 20% of total shootings result in a fatality..and of those..a
much smaller group are hit and give up or fall down NOW!....its
something to consider..making sure that they cannot return fire or
resume their attack after being hit.

Its something to consider..very seriously. It may save your life.

[Ed Huntress]

No, this is a DA revolver in .32 Colt New Police (.32 S&W Long). I've
never checked the serial number but I guess it's from the early or mid
'50s.

It's not a gun I would buy. I inhereted it in the late '80s. It had
never been fired.

It's really cute, but if you shoot someone with it, and he finds out
about it, you could be in a lot of trouble. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <XnsA2075437D...@216.196.121.131>, RD the Sandman
<rdsa...@comcast.net> says...
>
> Many guns, both semi auto and revolvers are DAO.
> For one thing it makes for a heavier trigger pull so external safeties
> are not really needed.
> It also makes for a longer trigger pull since the trigger has to cock
> the weapon and fire it.
>
...each time it's fired.

When TXDPS (Highway Patrol, Driver License, Capitol Police, et al.) switched to
the SIG P226 in 9mm or the P220 in .45ACP (troopers choice), then changed to
the P226 in .357 SIG, they adopted the SA/DA version. They have since
"quietly" switched them out for the DAO version.

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <dg70v8h7gbcgusl7g...@4ax.com>, Gunner Asch
<gunne...@gmail.com> says...
>

> Of course...we cant laugh too loudly..perhaps Deep was referring to
> the ever popular and widely carried Webley Fosbery Automatic Revolver
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley-Fosbery_Automatic_Revolver
>

In a very old Sean Connery film, `Zardoz,' Connery played a "brutal" who used
that very gun as his weapon.

Of course, since it was firing "Five-in-One" blanks there was no recoil to
operate the "automatic cylinder rotation" mechanism; requiring him to manually
force the upper back and forth to fire his next "round."

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <dvrvu8tqfcme9lpb2...@4ax.com>, BB
<badd...@baddabing.com> says...
>
> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 19:17:12 -0500, Johnny Johnson
> <TopCo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <XnsA206C5BCC3B8Fll...@216.168.3.70>,
>> "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" says...
>>>
>>> Johnny Johnson <TopCo...@yahoo.com> fired this volley in
>>> news:MPG.2c58cae17...@news.eternal-september.org:
>>>
>>>> How did the Loadmaster let that happen?!? ;)
>>>
>>> WhenTF did he NOT? (naw... they were pretty good, mostly) We had to
>>> 'pack them in' sometimes over in 'Nam, even if we knew we'd use up ALL
>>> the PSP to get in the air. That wasn't usually the problem. Going out
>>> real low over the forest was the problem.
>>
>> Ever see the Marines' "Fat Albert" C-130 support aircraft for the Navy's
Blue
>> Angels when the touch off their RATO system? :)
>>
>> Quoting Jackie Gleason's `Ralph Kramden' character:
>>
>> "Bang! ZOOM!"
>>
>> :D
>
> You mean these guys? http://dave-eady.org/ Unfortunately this will
> be the first year in over 20 that they won't be doing a show during
> Seafair in Seattle.
>
This was also the first year that the Fort Worth Air Power Show wasn't held at
NAS Fort Worth JRB Carswell, where the Blue Angels were always the headliners.

Obozo "played" the Sequestratiion game on the military, thereby eliminating
funding for such military promotion efforts as this.

Of course, it didn't stop him spending MILLIONS for him, Michelle and the girls
to fly around in AIR FORCE aircraft to their various golfing vacations and "dog
& pony" shows.
>
> However when they are in town they stop by to BS and perhaps even
> imbibe a tasty adult beverage or two. They're all crazier n' shit house
> rats... and that's a good thing!
>
AND they are some of the best "throttle jockies" in the world.

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <dt00v8hlasvjl9olr...@4ax.com>, Gunner Asch
<gunne...@gmail.com> says...
>
> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 02:09:11 -0500, Johnny Johnson
> <TopCo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <csquu89lv4l4fnjd3...@4ax.com>,
>> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> says...
>>>

>>> The 1911 tucks away much better than does the Mod 57
>>> which I usually carry out in the fields,, and the Mod 57
>>> shoots much farther and hits harder than does the 1911
>>

>>"Back in the day" early in my LEO career, I was a deputy sheriff in a
>> sheriff's office that restricted the deputies to carrying wheel guns only.
>>
>> When I worked uniform patrol I carried the S&W Model 629 in 4", but when
>> I worked plain clothes (warrants, fugitive, etc.) I carried the S&W Model 58
>> M&P (fixed sights didn't hang up on the suit coat's or sport jacket's lining
>> like the adjustable sights of the 629).
>>
>> Of course, in both cases the S&W Model 37 Airweight with .38 Special +P+
>> and Tyler T-Grip was the backup on the ankle.
>
> Those will work. What did you carry in the 629? 44 Specials?
>
While I always had the full-load .44 Magnum "Rhino Rollers" on my Sam Brown in
two speedloaders, along with a single speedloader of "car stoppers" (metal
piercing) rounds, I carried the .44 Magnum "HydroShok" rounds in the cylinder.
They were loaded to about half-way between the Magnum and Special loadings.

The Model 58 had the "normal" JHP rounds, though.

[Johnny Johnson]

In article <s980v8h583lqhg99q...@4ax.com>, Gunner Asch
<gunne...@gmail.com> says...
>

If I were to go to a "Glock-type" pistol, the Springfield XD-series would be
the one.

[RD Sandman]

Johnny Johnson <TopCo...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:MPG.2c59ece15...@news.eternal-september.org:

Many departments went to Glocks since they are DAO. Problem is that they
have a light trigger pull (4.5 lbs) so rather than properly training
their officers who were coming over from revolvers NYPD had Glock change
the trigger pull on their (NYPD) Glocks to about 8 - 9 pounds. They
called it the NY trigger. That helped but not completely, so they also
requested a trigger pull of around 12 pounds to make it about the same as
a revolver in double action mode. It was called the NY+. They lost a
few cops to injuries plus the costs of those injuries but saved a few
bucks on training. What maroons.......

--
Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman

Old Air Force adage..The only time you have too
much fuel is when you are on fire!!

[RD Sandman]

"Wayne" <mygarb...@verizon.net> wrote in
news:ksorca$4am$1...@dont-email.me:

>
>
> "RD Sandman" wrote in message
> news:XnsA20754D11...@216.196.121.131...

>
> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in

> news:csquu89lv4l4fnjd3...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 21:36:46 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You want any
>>>> kind of accuracy you need single action mode.
>>>
>>>Jerry Miculek does just fine with a Smith 627...
>>
>> I shot High Master with a Mod 586.
>>
>> Shrug
>>
>> I prefer revolvers for shooting..well..for just about all shooting
>> other than people shooting/ concealed carry. Ive got more wheel guns
>> than I do self loaders..but they get carried far far less than do the
>> self loaders.
>>
>> I dont go pig hunting with a .45 ACP nor do I call coyotes with a 9mm
>> in hand.
>>
>> However...I do carry now and then, a wheel gun for self defense..but
>> California has a 3 gun limit on the CCWs here...so I had to carry my
>> self loaders. The 1911 tucks away much better than does the Mod 57

>> which I usually carry out in the fields,, and the Mod 57 shoots much
>> farther and hits harder than does the 1911
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>> --
>> ""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of
>> small children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic
>> of repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms
>> for hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about
>> sex, just about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in
>> politics,money in politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated
>> with mind-numbing frequency in all major news outlets will not be
>> believed by some members of the populace. It is the permanence of
>> evil; you can't stop it." (Ann Coulter)
>>
>

> # My state has no limit on the number of guns you can carry. In fact,
> one # does not even need a permit to carry concealed. We have what
> some call # "Constitutional carry". Open....concealed....whatever
> floats your boat.
>
> Are there a lot of folks down near Tuscon who are trying to change
> that?


Tucson is rather blue. Phoenix and the rest of the state are mostly red.